I was musing on the remarkable story of Orly Taitz. On one hand she can be viewed as a crazy dentist with some crank theories. On the other hand, Taitz has been remarkably effective in getting publicity. How many of us have been interviewed on prime time national television multiple times?
Is there a fictional character that models her birther career? Don Quixote comes to mind as one whose self-image far exceeds his objective narrative. Mr. Bean is another, a bungling man who is oblivious to the disasters he creates around himself.
Perhaps Phil Berg fits the Don Quixote story better. Berg was a successful lawyer, an Assistant Attorney General of Pennsylvania before he went wrong. Quixote was hit on the head; I don’t know what happened to Berg. It may have been his brother’s death or just being consumed with conspiracy theories, first about 9/11 and later about Obama’s birth place. In any case, he began neglecting his clients, went bankrupt and is facing disciplinary action from the Pennsylvania bar (hearing later this month).
A number of the birthers, thinking that they personally were on a mission to remove Barack Obama from the White House have gone to jail for their magnificent obsessions, notably Terry Lakin, Walter Fitzpatrick III and Darren Huff. Others have lost their jobs and family ties.
All this is to say that sometimes we are frustrated by birthers who won’t listen to reason and seem to be able to spout nonsense with impunity. However, craziness takes its toll – sometimes public and sometimes private. There are always consequences.
The ONLY reason that Orly has gotten any traction is the same reason that Sister Sarah got traction. Men fantasize about getting in bed with her. If she were an ugly 60 or 70-year old, or a man no one would have paid her the slightest bit of attention.
Present company excepted.
Yes, that’s what separates us from her flying monkeys.
In my opinion stating that Phil Berg was a successful attorney prior to his foray into 9/11 is quite a stretch.
Past research of his position at Asst. PA AG showed no evidence that he ever progressed beyond, basically, an entry-level position there.
His first notable sanctions and malpractice suit stem from an ERISA action that began in May of 2001, before he became involved in his Truther litigation.
I am of the opinion that his Truther and Birther actions stem from nothing more than conning people out of their hard-earned cash based on total BS.
Orly, however, is on a completely different plane.. or perhaps that should read planet.
Well, I am glad to see that Dr. Taitz is finally getting some respect. I think maybe “Rocky” the fighter person, is a good example. Or the Energizer Bunny.
Plus, maybe it is starting to dawn on people that the old saying, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results” applies to Obama and the Obots, too. Keep dodging stuff in court and you will keep going to court.
The Head Researcher
Wouldn’t it be the judges’ or justices’ rulings that would determine whether anyone is “dodging stuff” in court?
As the Chief Judge for the US District Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said:
“This is one of several suits filed by Ms. Taitz in her quixotic attempt to prove that President Obama is not a ‘natural born citizen’ as is required by the Constitution. This Court is not willing to go tilting at windmills with her.”–Judge Royce C. Lamberth, April 14, 2010, Taitz v Obama (quo warranto). No other judge has been willing to go “tilting at windmills with Orly Taitz either and it is Orly Taitz who was fined $20,000 by a federal judge for filing a ” frivolous” birther lawsuit. When Orly went to the Supreme Court of the United States to get an injunction against her fine, not one of the Supreme Court Justices would stop the Georgia District Court Judge from sanctioning Orly Taitz.
Since Barack Obama is a Harvard Law school graduate and a former constitutional law professor, I’m sure that he enjoys winning lawsuits as much as anyone else who has passed a Bar Exam.
Thus far, in birther related lawsuits, Obama’s position has won 131 times and the birther position has prevaild ZERO times in original jurisdiction, appeals court and supreme court (both state and federal) rulings.
I’m sure that if birthers like Orly Taitz want to keep on suing, Obama will be happy to keep on winning, after all, its we the taxpayers who pay his legal bills.
I don’t think that missive really applies here. There is sense of implied failure in the text that makes sense only if it is failure, i.e. “Insanity is doing the same thing “that failed” over and over, and expecting (that it won’t fail again)”
Doing something that succeeds over and over, and expecting that it will continue to succeed, is simply good sense. In essence the anti-birthers are not expecting different results. We predict the same results; birthers lose in court. So far every one of those predictions have been shown correct.
Furthermore the objective evidence3, and the opinions of experts have always been in the direction of birther failure. When I listen view the objective evidence, listen to the opinions of experts, and recall the history of birther failure in similar (or in dome cases same) circumstances, it is not crazy to arrive at an expectation that they will continue to fail, i.e. same results. That’s just common sense, AND in line with the missive.
When Birthers view the objective evidence, listen to teh opinions of experts, and recall the history of birther failure in similar (or in dome cases same) circumstances, and expect that this time, somehow, things will turn out differently, even though nothing has changed since the last failure, that’s the insanity spoken of.
Horse of a different color.
If you measure success by how many times you win IN COURT, then everything you say makes sense. If you measure success by how you have performed ending the questions, not so much. Better to let Dr. Taitz, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, whoever get their paperwork, have an expert look at it, and get this over with.
Plus, better to stop carrying Obama’s water on this side of the issue, and let him accomplish something real, instead of using the Birther Issue for political brownie points with his supporters.
The Head Researcher
Please include me in that “Present company” exception.
I am an expert. I have looked at it. It’s over Toots.
The Hawaiian Dept. of Health are experts. Only they can determine what is an actual Hawaiian birth certificate- after all, they make them!
They have said Obama’s is authentic. That is expert enough for me.
Or would you want a second opinion if the U.S Treasury/Secret Service pronounced a $100 bill in your possession as authentic? From whom?
Please send me a sample of some of your $100 bills and I will give you my expert analysis. A thousand bills or so will give excellent statistical riigor.
*BARF*
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I think Palin & Bachmann are total nuts and annoying, but at least I can see how they are viewed as physically attractive for their age.
But Orly? Ugh! I don’t get where there is any physical appeal at all… the hair is just buffoonery awful – almost always looks like a bad mop top wig. The wide-eyes with overdone makeup just seems trashy and beyond that, her face seems at best, plain. Nothing special about the rest of her either. I know certain birthers seem to have an obsession with her…but I just don’t get it at all. If I knew nothing about her at all and just saw her on the street, the kindest thing I could say about her physically is to call her homely.
Wow. What an insult to Rocky and even the Engergizer Bunny!
I completely disagree with everything here in your post and just don’t get your justifications for these claims. The kindest thing that can be sad about Orly is the Quixotic Quest comparison.
Really, she’s just a terrible amateur lawyer, a delusional spoiled narcissist with a temper and someone who always demands her lackeys do her bidding for her, because she’s too lazy and inept and full of a false sense of entitlement to do it herself. Her sanity and mental state are definitely questionable at best.
Rocky had heart and values and although capable of human mistakes, tried to do right by people. Orly lacks similar redeeming qualities and utterly lacks competence, so making any comparison between the two is not only extremely dissimilar, but an insult to everything embodied in the Rocky theme…or heck, even the Energizer Bunny theme.
Your latter analogy also is a complete failure that doesn’t make any sense. “Obots” are not wasting time bringing these frivolous lawsuits to court. The nonsense and made-up controversy is completely spawned, generated and pushed by one delusional side only.
As your laywer BFF should be able to explain to you, if someone files in court against you, frivolous or not, you really have no sensible option but to respond and the best way to respond to a nonsense lawsuit is to put the minimal effort necessarily to get it dismissed and thrown out as quickly as possible. Simple basic law 101 for you there. All the courts have agreed and followed this too.
Even if you didn’t understand this concept, you would think paying attention to the court history of these cases and reading what the judges said and wrote for their reasons of dismissal would finally give you a clue and sink in. The only foolishness here are those that are irrationally and emotionally in denial of such basic obviousness.
The only people pushing the Birther issues are the delusional birthers and a few cynical grifters from their side trying to make a buck off of them or use them for propaganda tools.
If Birthers weren’t wasting time with crazy statements or actions, there simply wouldn’t be any activity or discussion on this non-issue.
It is also human nature to mock the ridiculous, so if Birthers don’t like being ridiculed, they simply need to stop being ridiculous. Better to be simply thought a fool than to open their mouths and prove it. People are responsible for their own words and actions and if you make crazy claims, you better be able to back them up or suffer the damage to your own credibility and reputation.
Birthers are their own problem and only have themselves to blame for creating a weak mythology to justify their emotional sore loserism instead of simply dealing with reality.
The Birthers are not victims here (other than to the grifters on their own side, egging them on and pressing for donations), no one is setting them up except themselves.
The political equation with the natural born citizen issue is that neither side has a vested interest in ending it. Both Obama’s political operatives and the birthers are using the issue to rally their base supporters.
For Obama haters,the birther issue is “red meat”. For Obama-lovers, it shows the depths that his most virulent opposition will go to in order to castigate him.
Just like The Kennedy Assassination or did we really go to the moon, this issue will remain in a dark, damp corner of American politics for a very long time.
There is nothing that could persuade the true believers, nothing.
I think when we are talking about using the courts (as Orly has continually done) to resolve an issue, winning in those very same courts is a legitimate criterion of success.
I don’t understand why Head Researcher thinks that Obama supporters shouldn’t “carry the water” for their man. Its perfectly fine for Orly supporters to “carry the water” for her.
Obama supporters defend Obama. Orly supporters defend Orly.
G:
You said: “Your latter analogy also is a complete failure that doesn’t make any sense. “Obots” are not wasting time bringing these frivolous lawsuits to court. The nonsense and made-up controversy is completely spawned, generated and pushed by one delusional side only.
As your laywer BFF should be able to explain to you, if someone files in court against you, frivolous or not, you really have no sensible option but to respond and the best way to respond to a nonsense lawsuit is to put the minimal effort necessarily to get it dismissed and thrown out as quickly as possible. Simple basic law 101 for you there. All the courts have agreed and followed this too. ”
Maybe. But what if the person suing you is just going to keep filling and filing forever, and then other people are going to sue also, like The Liberty Legal Foundation silliness, Don’t you think maybe it is time to question the nature of your response to see if it is still the best one??? Because meantime, a lot of people view what is going on as “dodging” the issue.
And those people can probably vote.
Plus, I have just done a new Internet Article, “Chester Arthur, The First 007 British Secret Agent???”
http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2011/11/06/chester-arthur-the-first-007-british-secret-agent/
Because, while people were sleeping, the Vattle Birthers were secretly re-writing history at Citizendium. There is a linky thingy to the re-write.
The Head Researcher
Hey Squeeky, if you’re really interested in birth ceritificates of presidnetial candidates, I hear that Herman Cain has a standing offer to any female to go up to his room and have a look up close and personal.
Since the Liberty Legal Foundation is suing based on who Obama’s father was, what exactly do you propose that he do to prevent such a suit?
I think you overrate by 1,000x the effect of any of these lawsuits.. You and I might be shocked to find out we are being sued. Presidents get sued all the time over much more substantive issues then the birther nonsense. They have huge legal teams-the entire Dept of Justice and personal lawyers. I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama doesn’t even know about these suits (especially since they aren’t even suing him). Nor is the media paying attention. The birthers had their 15 minutes and wasted it.
If a lawsuit falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it really fall? What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Q:If a lawsuit falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it really fall? What is the sound of one hand clapping?
A: Over 100,000 comments on this website, alone.
The Head Researcher
LOL! Actually, that was a pretty sharp and witty answer.
All of us at this website might comment here and value it as a source of both finding information and setting the record straight…but honestly, let’s not kid ourselves and pretend it is any more important than that. Nor do people talking about an issue (or making things up as the Birthers do) change the base realities or laws about the issue at hand. Wishful thinking and gossip are just that. There is a huge difference between spreading propoganda and defending truth.
Wow…just wow. Think for a minute what you just said and advocated: That people should be able to just endlessly and obstinately harass and harass and harass without basis and then magically get their way??? That’s messed up and wrong. That is the method of abusers and bullies. Is that what you support and believe in?
So, I guess you also support and the old adage of “tell a lie long enough and people will believe it”? That’s called brainwashing and it is wrong too. Where on earth is your moral compass?
Sorry, any “suspicions” you may have are emotional and not reality based. You merely “want” to believe something bad about someone and therefore latch onto anything that you can use as an excuse to justify being suspicious.
What part of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence do you not understand?
Are you really that shallow and weak that you’ll buy into any horrible rumors merely because you wish to…or worse, merely because someone says them over and over and over again, without proof? Why do you blame the accused instead of question the accuser to provide evidence? Because that is the way it works in the real world.
So, I guess in your world, it would be completely ok and justified for some crazy harpy to make up rumors about you and go around claiming that you killed and raped their cat. After all, if they keep claiming it long enough and you don’t endlessly respond and do their bidding, you must be guilty of hiding something, right? *sheesh*
Ok. You do realize that these people that feel this way didn’t vote for him last time either, right? No one is forcing them to vote for him nor expecting them to. They always did and always will have the right to vote for who they choose, but don’t use this pretend Birther nonsense as a cover excuse for *WHY* they aren’t voting for him.
Or are you advocating for something much more shallow and sinister than that – that YOU personally support and advocate using lies, smears and propoganda to mislead people and try to cheat, because YOU are the one who is trying to find ways to prevent others from voting the way they choose…simply because it isn’t how you would vote. ???
What are your answers, Squeeky? Honestly, where do your morals lie?
How many more certified and vouched-for birth certificates does Obama need to release before you are satisfied he is not “dodging” the issue? Two more? Three more?
Do you think he needs to submit to DNA tests to disprove every crazed birther paternity/maternity theory? How many is reasonable?
If birthers get a crack at 5 DNA tests, will that be enough to satisfy you that he is not “dodging” the issue?
In the meantime, squeeky/Dead Researcher, I have not seen any writings on your blog or elsewhere asking for Cain, Romney and others to stop “dodging” the issue of their birth place. We have not seen any certified birth certificates for any of them, and as others have pointed out here, there are many questions they haven’t answered. Why are you not concerned by their lack of candor?
Tee Hee!
G:
You said: “So, I guess you also support and the old adage of “tell a lie long enough and people will believe it”? That’s called brainwashing and it is wrong too. Where on earth is your moral compass? ”
I don’t know where you got that or that long rant from. I just made a few comments and asked a very simple question. This is the reality of what is happening:
“people just endlessly and obstinately harassing and harassing and harassing without basis.”
How do you do your best to end it??? If you can’t end it, how can you reduce its spread???
I guess you can just keep winning in court. But maybe it is time to think outside the box. Or not. Your choice.
The Head Researcher
Fantastic moving of the goal post there, squeeky. Your post was about somebody doing the same thing and expecting something different to come of it. Now you move the goal post to say “well, still if you would just stop carrying water….” B.S.
Your analogy was b.s. and you’re too childish to admit it.
jayhg:
You said: “Your analogy was b.s. and you’re too childish to admit it.”
Well, here everybody is, three years later, 100,000+ comments later, and who knows how much moral appropriation, and the issue is still going on. I think you Obots are as addicted to this silliness as much as the Vattle Birthers. Maybe “childishness” is refusing to think New Thoughts for fear of the unknown.
The Head Researcher
Whatever gave you the impression that anyone CARES about dumb ass birthers? Cause we comment and make fun/ridicule them??? That’s not caring, squeeky…………that’s folks looking at comedy and laughing. It doesn’t cost a thing and it can be entertaining….and no, childishness is you refusing to admit that your initial post was silly and having been shown that is it…..you go into defense mode – trying to pretend that it was sensible.
I can’t believe that you think that stupid birthers should be rewarded by President Obama bothering to try to shut them up. Let them talk/whine………again, it doesn’t cost a thing and their frustration/insanity is alternatively pathetic and entertaining.
…and if anyone is doing anything three years later, it’s birthers, doing the same thing and expecting different rusults………INSANITY!!
jayhg:
I have fun fighting the Vattle Birthers, but that does not mean there isn’t some very serious crazy going on with them. I keep trying to find new ways to make them look stupid so they will STFU. There are lots of ways for me to enjoy myself, and if the Vattle Birthers slunk away never to return, it would not hurt my feelings one bit. Sooo, I will keep my mind open to new ideas.
So There!!!
The Head Researcher
Well, I think your worries are backwards and really just “blame the victim”.
Simply put, crazy has always been around and always will be. The courts are overfull of wasteful frivolous lawsuits that we never hear about. Presidents always get hassled and sued by nuts and spurrious detractors.
So I think it is unlikely that anything would “end it”. I don’t think there is any other realistic option that what has been done over the past three years – they did respond early when there were initial “concerns” and then when justifiable official documents wouldn’t satisfy the haters, they realized that this wasn’t a reasonable request and did the sensible thing and mostly ignored it from that point on…except when some garbage suit required the most cursury dismissal response.
That is realistically all that can be done. Appeasement is the wrong answer. You should know better then that. Look at the whole history of the birther arguments and all the info that has been leared in the meantime. It is OBVIOUS that *nothing* will satisfy the hard-core birthers; they will simply move the goalposts again, as they have done over and over and over and over again.
Face it, the whole argument has always been a red-herring. There is no legitimate issue with his legal ability to hold office. It has always been and always will be about people who are unhappy that he got elected and simply want a “magic” cure to “erase” his tenure and “pretend” that the last election never happened.
Now that we are moving towards re-election season, it is also a cynical and disingenuous attempt to try to eliminate his candidacy and block the Constitutional right of voters that wish to vote to re-elect him.
SImply put, this is really just sore-loserism at its worst. Folks that can’t accept that others voted different (or will vote differently) than they wish and therefore would rather resort to pretend nonsense or dirty tricks to try to void and invalidate the votes of others.
So There back at ya!!! Bottom line: your original analogy, birthers to Presidient Obama, was silly. When told so, you tried to change the subject. As you said, so there!!!!
The problem is that there is nothing which can be done to get it “over with.”
Remember when we were told that all Obama had to do was release his long-form birth certificate, and it would be over with?
Well, they got to see the long form, and then they demanded to see the original document. Now they want to see the original document and the microfiche. And they still want to see the hospital records and Obama’s kindergarten records and countless other records.
If they got to see the original document and the microfiche, they would still want to do DNA testing of Obama, Stanley Ann, Malcolm X, Frank Marshall Davis and every sailor who was in the Seventh Fleet in 1960. Then they would insist upon exhuming the body of Obama’s grandmother.
Nothing that Obama can do will ever satisfy the birthers.
Fear of the unknown? Within those 100,000 comments have been research my many individuals looking into that unknown. Checking every piece of evidence that has been presented. That includes every argument set forward, even the absurd. Only one thing had to be proven false over those 3 years and 100,000 comments. However, in those 100,000 comments their are those who still can’t accept Obama is a natural born citizen. “Me thinks” the fear of the unknown mantel solely belongs to birthers (Vattle Birthers or otherwise).
It is the likes of Orly Taitz and others who keep losing in court. Not really losing, but dismissed on various grounds. It is when one loses or encounters failure that it is time to “think outside the box.” It is just amusing of watching the various cases being dismissed.
G:
You said: “It is OBVIOUS that *nothing* will satisfy the hard-core birthers; they will simply move the goalposts again, as they have done over and over and over and over again.”
Yet, when the long form finally got coughed up, the number of Birthers went down. Plus, there were people who were unsure and had doubts, who quit having them. Just like I told you Obots before it got coughed up. Sooo, aren’t you Obots just confirmation biasing yourselves??? And not really paying attention to reality, too???
The Head Researcher
If I keep filing multiple lawsuits against you claiming you own me your home and your car, and all your money, do you really think the best course of action is just to give them to me?
That’s what you’re suggesting Obama should do, essentially.
Those are fair questions. At one time, I imagined that Dr. C’s site could eventually crowd-source enough compelling information and arguments to enable anyone to see through the birthers fallacious arguments and inaccurate evidence
Likewise, I imagined that as legal defeats and setbacks grew, bithers would begin to see that their cause was founded on false premises.
In addition, I believed that since birther leaders like Orly Taitz have such odd personalities, people would be put off by them, and see the birther movement as something inspired and built by personality disorders.
Certainly I imagined the release of authenticated birth records would satisfy almost everyone and the birthers would dwindle and fade away.
And yet, for all those, the bither movement lives on. I no longer believe that rational or ethical means exist to silence it. It IS time to think outside the box. And so I’ve begun to say nightly prayers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Only He, in his glorious pasta goodness, can reach into peoples’ hearts and minds, and relieve them of their delusions.
The sexual attraction of Orly reminds me of the time when Hugh Grant, then married to the stunning Liz Hurley, was caught with a rather dumpy and trashy-looking streetwalker in Hollywood. I’m sure we all remember the case. I’m too lazy to google it up right now, but that’s Orly’s secret.
The problem with this argument is a concept known as decreasing marginal returns. As each new bit of information is made public confirming that Obama was born in HI, a smaller percentage of the remaining birfers or doubters (I think anyone who has doubts about Obama’s birthplace is a birfer, but I’ll put them separately here since you seem to consider them to be a different category) will be disabused of their birfer beliefs.
I don’t have any evidence to back this up, but I think that a lot of the people who jumped on the birfer bandwagon during the Donald Trump fiasco probably believed the birfer lie that Obama had not previously released his birth certificate, which is, of course, incorrect. So, Obama released his long-form birth certificate and these people moved on. Anyone who believes (or suspects) that the LFBC is forged is not going to be as easily swayed by additional logic and evidence because the belief itself is not consistent with a rational assessment of available logic and evidence.
Actually, I’m not. Notice I said hard-core Birthers . That really defines the majority of who are left. Those folks are pretty much hopeless.
Are there still some general uneducated folks who probably haven’t been paying close attention that are susceptible to a certain amount of this nonsense, purely because of anti-government or right-wing bias? Sure.
For those people, if they really are curious, the existing and extensive history and amount of data, both here, at your site (re: the dual-citizen & de Vattel nonsense) and quite a few others have pretty much covered the issue from all angles.
Anyone who is made aware of that info and bothers to have real conversations about it and yet remains in denial is in denial by choice or for intentional propoganda purposes. They will probably remain permanently hopeless and are only worth rebutting, as they are beyond reach of reason. They really don’t amount to any significant size or function anyways – not even for political reasons. Their vote was never going to Obama regardless.
There is no evidence that the number of birthers have shifted. Doubts? The only people who had doubts accepted it when Hawaii confirmed the authenticity of Obama’s birth certificate many years ago. There are people who still don’t want to believe that Obama was born in America.
We said Obama was eligible to run for president when we first hear that he would make a good president, or when we first heard that he would run. We didn’t need to see his birth certificate. That goes the same as Bobby Jindal, Rick Santorum or anyone else.
It was initially amusing of all the professionals who came out claiming Obama’s long form birth certificate was a fake. Even before it was it was believed that it wouldn’t change die-hard birthers minds. Guess what? It hasn’t. Many key birthers refuse to accept that the birth certificate is authentic.
Now you what to claim that Obots are “just confirmation biasing” ourselves. Just like there are people who still believe that the assassination of JFK was a plot, their will be people still claiming that Obama isn’t a natural born citizen, or wasn’t born in America many years from now.
Actually it wasn’t witty at all. Why do you fawn over Squeeky? There are millions of posts about the Kardashians, and the number of people who pay attention to them are many x the # of birthers. So they are FAR more important by that criteria (not to mention better looking).
Nate Silver had an interesting piece in the NYT Magazine discussing the odds on Obama’s re-election. They basically come down to the economy and who the Republicans nominate. If the economy improves, Obama is in good shape. If it doesn’t and they nominate Romney, he’s in trouble. If it doesn’t and they nominate Perry/Cain. it’s a toss-up. No birth certificate in the equation. Nate is pretty sharp and knows a hell of lot more than Squeeky about this stuff.
I already have thought out of the box. I have looked at the history of the late 18th century and determined that the intent of the natural born citizen clause was solely and entirely to prevent foreign ROYALTY from installing a younger son in the US Presidency. Therefore, unless Obama Sr was King of Kenya, the clause does not apply to Obama. He is eligible regardless of where he is born. And obviously Squeeky agrees, since she has not called for birth certificates from Romney, Perry, Cain, etc. Squeeky knows they are eligible wherever they were born because they are not royalty (though if Cain had run Burger King instead of Godfather’s there might be an issue).
The problem with hard-core birthers is that there is no evidence that will satisfy them. If you read their claims you will know that they have ALREADY decided that even if the records are produced they will be fakes. In Hi. they have already claimed that the reason the “original” birth cert is not being displayed is because it is a forgery perpetuated by the WH, CIA, FBI et al. So it dosen’t matter what is made public. I will be a fake.
It’s hard to argue against logic like that.
The reason Orly has gotten some publicity/airtime is the same reason Octomom had some. They’re both sideshow freaks.
it strikes me that the birther movement is attempting to score points ( they still don´t have enough to redeem them for a free burger yet) to try and have their president removed from office. in his position, i´d be inclined to turn it round and use it to my advantage as well. it´s only logical, and isn´t costing him anything.
i came across this birther business quite by chance (it doesn´t get much press here in europe and is largely ignored) and found it quite interesting. since i´ve been following the subject i´ve learned one hell of a lot about u.s. history which i didn´t know existed. learning is something i find stimulating, and some of the birther crowd bring some serious high comedy along as well.
it´s all-round entertainment
Head Researcher…
In 2008, the Birthers said that if Obama would just release his birth certificate, this entire thing would go away (of course, the thing at that time was that his middle name was Mohammad. My question to them is why would Hussein be somehow better than Mohammad.) They were also starting questions about his birth place and said that if he just released his birth certificate, this would all go away.
Barack Obama, in response, released his “valid Hawaii state birth certificate”. He scanned the birth certificate, put it on his campaign website, emailed it to various news organizations, and invited news organizations to come to his campaign headquarters and view it. Only one organization took him up on his offer. He let a top fact-checking organization hold it, photograph it, and post their pictures on their website.
The Birthers said that it was a forgery, that anybody could get one (since anybody can get a birth certificate saying that they were born in Hawaii, even if they were born outside of Hawaii), and that it didn’t matter since Obama was ineligible anyways because of his father.
The Birthers then said that if he just released his long-form certificate, this would all go away. In 2011, Obama finally acquiested to the birthers, writing the Hawaii Director of Health in order to get her to authorize a special exception to their procedures so that he could get a copy of his long-form. He photocopied the certificate to give each person in the news organization a photocopy of it. He scanned it in, and put it on the Internet. He then held a White House Press Conference in the White House Press Room, held up the original, gave each member of the press core their own certificate, and answered any questions about this. It was so convincing that even WND’s own White House Corrispondent was convinced.
The birthers continually said that it was a forgery, said that anybody could get one, and that it didn’t matter anyways since he was ineligible anyways…
Now, the birthers are asking for the Microfeche or access to the original certificate. Why should Obama believe that these birthers will act in anyway different from the way that they acted the previous times?
Roadburner:
I have also learned a lot about history too from debating this stuff , and also a lot about people’s belief systems. I knew there were people like moon-landing deniers out there, but had never debated anybody like them. Part of it is a hoot, like watching how the Vattle Birthers try to twist Minor v. Happersett around, but a part of it is very scary. That sooo many people go off the deep end on it.
I wonder what was the way the lunacy manifested itself before the moon-landing deniers had a moon landing to deny, and what was the way the goofiness manifested itself before the Vattle Birthers had Vattel to latch onto. I am also beginning to suspect that the same craziness affects everybody to some degree, except for me. Who is perfectly sane and reasonable.
The Head Researcher
The 9/11 conspirators overlap at original birther Phil Berg and the “Info-Wars” blog of Alex Jones.
There were the “sun goes around the earth” people (anti-Copernicans). There were the “flat-earthers.”(flat earth society).
Those are two of the most famous denialist belief systems going back centuries.
And of course, the anti-evolution, Scopes Monkey Trial folks and the “earth is only 4,000 years old” fundamentalists are alive and well.
In politics, there are the “New World Orderists,” and the “Bilderburg Conspiracy,” the Council on Foreign Relations conspiracy, the UN conspiracy, the anti-federal reservists and the international Jewish/anti-semite conspiracy theorists. who blame the Jews for every world problem
Wikipedia has a good list of conspiracy theories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories
When anyone presents the argument to me that President Obama is not eligible, I point out to them that the Congress hasn’t held one second of hearings on his eligibility and that Congressional Committee chairs have congressional subpoena power and the state of Hawaii would be very unlikely to reject a congressional subpoena for Obama’s birth records.Branches of government respect other branches of government, even federal to state or vice-versa. Rejecting a congressional subpoena can come with a contempt of Congress charge.
The Republicans in Congress have taken Obama on on every issue under the sun, from suing him over Obamacare to rejecting his jobs and budget proposals. They are not afraid of him in the least and yet, no hearings on his eligibility? Get real.
I am pretty open minded about a lot of things, but some take it as gullibility. Then they get dejected when I shoot down their theory. My fist debate was with a 911 truther. He insisted that no plane hit the pentagon. When I asked how do you explain the missing passengers plane, I got the answer that it was faked and they are living in secrecy.
That is when I decided to have an open mind, but on occasion deadbolt it shut.
That is the same thing you people were saying about him releasing his long form BC “just release it and be done with it!”, then he released it and suddenly that was not good enough anymore.
Giving in to birthers only brings more questions, give an inch and they want a foot.
Nothing Obama does will EVER satisfy you, just admit it and be done with it!
Horus:
it was good enough for me. It was good enough for a lot of people according to polls at the time, because the number of Common Sense Suspicious Birthers went way down. I bet some just became Vattle Birthers, but a lot of people just said to heck with the whole thing. If Sheriff Arpeggio whatever looks at it, and if he is honest, then I bet a lot more people quit being Birthers. Not all of them, but a lot.
But this isn’t going to happen is my GUESS because Obama needs this issue so his supporters will have something to feel smart about. I predicted this in my very good Internet Article, “2012 – The Year of the Birther??? (A White Paper)” I think that I am off to a good start on proving that GUESS because Birthers are being used about Soylyndra, and Rick Perry, and even Herman Cain.
The Head Researcher
Of course, one of the passengers who is currently “living in secrecy” is Barbara Olson, the wife of then Solicitor General of the United States, Theodore Olson. She was a frequent guest on cable news shows and was enroute to California to appear on Bill Maher’s show Politically Incorrect when the plane was hijacked. The Truthers would have us believe that she gave up all of that in exchange for a life of secrecy.
Of course, all of that is a good example of just how deluded the conspiracy theorists are. They will believe anything, no matter how outlandish, if it seems to confirm their pre-conceived notions.
I am NOT a 9-11 Truther person (athough I am curious about Building 7) but I certainly would not put anything past the government when it comes to stuff like this. Sooo, the good thing about the Truthers is, that the government knows if they pull something big, there are large numbers of people who are going to be suspicious. Which will hopefully work to keep government lying and government sneakiness to smaller things. Like for example, Fast and Furious. Because who would have thought our government would send LARGE numbers of guns to Killer Narco Gangs From Hell ??? A few guns to track them, maybe, but thousands???
Then, just the other day when Gaddafi got killed, there was some lady from the State Department doing a press conference on TV trying to act like there just wasn’t any news at all, when people were watching videos of Gaddafi getting tortured and killed. Like everybody at the press conference were just little kids and it was her job to decide for them what had gone on.
This kind of stuff is sooo common we don’t hardly even notice it anymore, and really, do any of us even expect government people at these press conferences to do anything but lie and withhold stuff from us??? Sooo, even though I think the Truthers are kind of nutz, at least they have enough sense to realize the nature of the beast.
The Head Researcher
So some lady at the State Dept. was trying to fool the world into thinking that Gaddafi wasn’t dead, when he really was? Or was some lady from the State Dept. actually saying they couldn’t confirm the reports yet? Because, some times, they actually wait to confirm things (even if they seem obvious) and this is caution rather than dishonesty.
Of course, if you think your government could kill thousands of it’s own citizens and lie about it, I suppose you think everything the government says is a lie… So there!
I’m not fawning over Squeeky. I’m just try to not be beholden to my own biases and judge people and responses on their own merit when possible, regardless if I disagree with them or think they are wrong. Obviously, what one finds funny is generally a simple matter of opinion and I have no problem that you didn’t see it as funny at all, where I got a chuckle over the retort itself as a simple zinger…while still disagreeing with the zinger itself and felt it was wrong. All which I explained in the rest of my post after expressing the quick chuckle. Simple as that.
I thought Joey’s answer on this was pretty good, but I wanted to just add another to it:
The 7th Day Adventists really come to mind as a clear example of this…
I mean, this is pretty much a fairly sizable splinter faction of a religion whose existence and growth today is all do to suffering massive EPIC FAIL moments many decades ago and just decided to soldier on, claiming “any day now…”
They really came out of the ashes of the “Great Disappointment” of the Millerites movement, giving up just about all their possessions and reputations, suredly convinced that the “End of the World” was going to happen on a specific date…and when that failed…another one…and when that failed…
Well you get the idea. Not only reminds me of the Birther’s inability to get a clue from their 100% loss record, but also of Harold Camping – this year’s main Doomsayer of failed predictions and terminally gullible followers.
For more on this, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_day_adventists
A true “open mind” still has a filter to detect garbage and nonsense and kick them back out. So, no need to deadbolt what comes in, as long as you still leave a door open in the back to take out the garbage…
Any mind that is so “so open” that they can’t discern between unsupported nonsense and made up sources and actual evidence and reality is just going to fill up so quickly with garbage, that there the brain will have to metaphorically “fall out”… which seems to be the kind of “snap” we see with some of the irrecoverable Birthers and might be why their ODS eventually turns into full-blown madness.
Well, this is interesting. I can’t find the video at the State Department website. Or on youtube. Or on FOX, which is probably the channel I was watching. Or Morning Joe if it was early enough.
The Head Researcher
Although from a purely “political” standpoint, there is always an advantage in being able to paint your opponents as crazy and therefore non-credible, Obama doesn’t *need* the Birther issue in order to do that.
There is a constant source of crazy beliefs, statements and actions happening all over the right side of the spectrum,so there’s plenty to chose from.
Birtherism is just one more loopy thing to point and laugh at, but if it was completely and utterly non-existent, it really wouldn’t change the equation or calculus here at all.
You have yet to explain your statement that “his supporters will have something to feel smart about” in somehow trying to pass the buck of blame for the existence of birtherism anywhere else but where it solely resides – with the Birthers themselves.
An open contest doesn’t require a weak or crazy opponent at all in order to exist or gain support. In fact, such a scenario is just a weaker contest overall. The ideal situation is having a choice between two strong options and opponents. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to occur enough in our system of politics, but that would be the ideal.
If you have to have something to feel “smug” about, that is nothing but a sign of personal insecurity. Please don’t project your way of thinking onto everyone else.
I’m with you on this. I’m just scratching my head trying to understand what is being argued here.
All I can surmise is that this is the result of more simple brainwashing paranoia by the right-wing / Fox News propaganda machine. Look at the other reference to “Fast and Furious” being pulled out of nowhere into this conversation as a clue.
Basically, the right gins up certain controversies and paints them in a simplistic and one-sided manner to stir up resentments and fears in their gullible followers…who then develop an over-heightened sense of paranoia as a result and just repeat what they’ve heard with a heightened bias, without actually looking into the details further…
I certainly don’t need birthers to feel smart. I don’t need Obama to feel smart. I am smart. I was smart before Obama was born and smart back when Orly Taitz was a streetwalker in Kishinev. I don’t need to invent a research institute and pretend to do research to feel smart. I do real honest to God research and publish it in peer-reviewed journals, not on a blog where you can put any crap you feel like and pretend it’s brilliant.
Well, if you don’t believe me, remember what The One himself said:
Can the so-called birthers help President Obama win reelection?
In an interview with ABC News last week, Obama, who has generally avoided talking about the 2012 election, suggested that continued questions about his background from Republicans such as Donald Trump would hurt Republicans in next year’s elections. Some conservatives have repeatedly questioned the president’s birth in Hawaii, despite ample evidence showing he was born there.
It “creates, I think a problem for them when they want to actually run in a general election where most people feel pretty confident the president was born where he says he was, in Hawaii,” Obama said. “He doesn’t have horns. We may disagree with him on some issues and we may wish that you know, the unemployment rate was coming down faster and we want to know his plan on gas prices.
“But we’re not really worrying about conspiracy theories or or birth certificates,” Obama said, “and so I think it presents a problem for them.”
Obama seems eager to highlight the more extreme views of Republicans. In recent speeches, he has several times made jokes that referenced the birthers.
“I was talking to a group earlier and I said, you know, I grew up here in Chicago. I wasn’t born here. Just want to be clear. I was born in Hawaii,” he said, as the audience laughed at a fundraising event in Chicago last week. “But I became a man here in Chicago.”
If their recent comments are any indication, some leading Republicans share Obama’s view. Earlier this year, top GOP strategist Karl Rove referred to the birthers as a “trap that the White House has laid for us.”
(There is no evidence the continued existence of the birthers is some Democratic conspiracy.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/can-the-birthers-actually-help-obama/2011/04/18/AFoujoyD_blog.html
Sooo, yeah. I think Obama likes Birthers. I think his followers like Birthers. What else do they have to brag about when it comes Obama???
The Head Researcher
We find birthers endlessly entertaining. I can’t imagine Obama doesn’t like a good laugh too.
So, if that is true and the birthers hate Obama, wouldn’t the smart thing for them to do be to simply be quiet? Shut down their web sites, drop all court cases? Maybe they should listen to Karl Rove?
Abbreviated list:
bin Laden dead
Ghaddafi gone
Prevented 2nd Great Depression (which it would have been if Republicans had had their way)
30 million uninsured to get health insurance
Stock market almost doubled (best performance by any President in his first term since FDR)
DADT gone
Financial reform (imperfect sure, but Republican plans is?????)
I could put more much but my typing finger is sore..
WIth regard to Phil Berg, people give him much greater credentials that he deserves.
The title “Assistant Attorney General” applies to every single attorney working for the office of the Attorney General, even those that have been out of law school for 1 day. There are probably over a thousand assistant attorney generals in Pennsylvania right now.
I agree with everything you posted, so I’ll just say “ditto” at this time.
“The One”…really? You do understand that only you anti-Obama types are the ones that call him that, not his supporters, don’t you? It is nothing but a childish invictive based on jealousy and only reveals your basis as rooted in emotional sore-loserism, that’s all.
You seem to have ignored what I wrote in response to you and focused on posting a rant that only backs up my points. See bold below:
As several of us have pointed out, Birthers present the problem of themselves. If you don’t want to be ridiculed, don’t act ridiculous. Simple as that. Birthers are utterly and completely responsible for creating this silly nonsense issue AND for keeping it alive.
If the Birthers shut up about it, nobody would have to respond and poke fun at them for it. Simple as that.
As we have pointed out, there are PLENTY of OTHER things to make fun of and of course in politics, as in life, it is completely natural to mock and poke fun at the crazy and to point out the crazy in one’s opponents as painting a picture of *why* they are NOT credible.
Birtherism is simply NOT necessary in that equation, period. It is just one additional thing to mock and laugh at…for the very reason that it is ludicrous on its face.
Regardless, on ALL issues of crazy ideas, actions and statements that earn well deserved ridicule – the FAULT for those rests SOLELY on the ones bringing them up and causing them, NOT those who simply respond to push back or point out the crazy.
Add: What the heck has Obama done so far?
http://whattheheckhasobamadonesofar.com/
Scientist:
You said: “So, if that is true and the birthers hate Obama, wouldn’t the smart thing for them to do be to simply be quiet? Shut down their web sites, drop all court cases? Maybe they should listen to Karl Rove?”
Well, I was there with that possibility back in August or September 2010 as regarded fighting the Obots. I hit it again in “2012 – The Year of The Birther???” which is about the minefield Birthers are going to have to run through this year.
As far as Obama’s alleged “accomplishments”, you are having to dig pretty deep to use two people killed by other people, a health care program which may not even be constitutional, and which does not fully kick in until 2014—which is after the election. The stock market doubling is also mis-leading. That was accomplished by pumping out money into the economy which has actually made stuff far worse, helped to underfund social security, and increased commodity prices. The Great Depression II was not averted, just covered up and pushed down the road for a bit.
But, that is what elections are about. I bet you hear a lot about Birthers this next year.
The Head Researcher
Gaddafi – dead, without the loss of a single American soldier
Osama bin Laden – dead
Anwar al-Awlaki – dead
18 other top Al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders – dead
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/the-terrorist-notches-on-obamas-belt/
He saved General Motors.
He pushed through the most comprehensive heath care reform bill since Medicare.
He has reversed the Bush record of virtually zero private sector job growth during the first decade of this century.
He has ended the disastrous war in Iraq.
I could go on, but even you must get the point.
By that standard, no President deserves any credit for any military or foreign policy accomplishments, since they are all carried out by others. Reagan didn’t knock the Berlin Wall down himself, FDR never went to war, Lincoln didn’t win the Civil War.
Of course, if the policies screwed up and bin Laden had gotten away like he did at Tora Bora or if Obama had sent 100,000 ground troops into a Libyan quagmire like happened in Iraq, you would absolve him of all blame, right?
I’ll get to the other stuff later.
The St. Petersburg Times newspaper won a Pulitizer Prize for its “Politifact” investigative unit which keeps track of politicians’ promises and whether they are kept, broken or compromised.
Specifically with regard to the President, politifact has its “Obamameter” which keeps track of every promise kept, promise broken or promise compromised by President Obama.
I think it is fair to look at “Promises Kept” as Obama’s accomplishments in office. There is also a category in the Obamameter for “in the works,” things not yet resolved one way or another.
Since “Head Researcher” asks “what has he done,” I am assuming that “done” means “acoomplished.”
Here is a link to a list of 154 “promises kept” by President Obama since he assumed the office of President.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-kept/
Obama’s overall track record is 154 Promises Kept; 53 Promises Broken, 48 Compromises, 67 promises are “stalled,” 184 promises are “in the works,” and 2 promises are not yet rated.
Scientist is exactly right. Presidents are like quarterbacks of football teams. When the team wins, the quarterback gets most of the credit, even if he had little to do with the actual victory. And when the team loses, the quarterback must shoulder the blame, even if he had little to do with the loss.
It’s the same with presidents in the eyes of most voters.
Check out:
http://whattheheckhasobamadonesofar.com/
Do you dislike or oppose the following executive acts of President Obama:
“Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, restoring basic protections against pay discrimination for women and other workers”
“Significantly increased funding for the Violence Against Women Act”
Pssh. Pay discrimination against women. Liberal propaganda, right?
You call him The One so by your mockery you must expect much more extraordinary acts like those accomplished under Bush or coming from the current Congress?
The Head Researcher actually thinks that corporations making money (that’s when the stock market goes up) is bad for the economy!
Companies that are publically traded on the stock market can’t hire new employees if they don’t turn a profit and if they turn a profit, their stock value goes up.
On the first day of the Obama administration/last day of the Bush administration, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 7,920.66; Today, the DowJones closed at 12,068.30.
The numbers speak for themselves.
There are about 15,000 publically traded companies in the US.
On these 2 points, we agree.
1.) Yes, that *IS* what elections are about and different people will have different opinions and reasons for evaluating whether certain actions were good or not or how they attribute credit or blame. Nothing unusual about that.
Again, nobody is trying to take your vote right away from you or even trying to persuade you to vote for Obama…so why are you always coming across as if your right to NOT vote for Obama is under some perceived attack?
I think this really comes down to sore-loserism. You don’t respect the rights of others to vote differently than you…and are really upset because you can’t control the will of other voters. In life, we all will experience many elections where our choices are not what the broader public choses. You don’t have to like it, but you need to learn to simply accept it and move past it. That is part of maturity.
2. None of us are disagreeing that we will “hear” more about Birthers next year. Just about everyone here has predicted an uptick in their activity in 2012, as we head into the re-election.
What I disagree with you about is that I don’t see any significance to their uptick at all next year, in terms that it will not result in anything more than a new string of failures, just as all the rest of their attempts over the past 3 have. The evidence hasn’t changed. The laws haven’t changed.
This is nothing more than an agitated set of sore losers simply becoming louder and more desperate for the sole reason that the are confronted with the possibility of 4 more years of the very thing that they have not been able to accept since the last election. So of course they are going to wail and gnash with more intensity…but so what? A tiny vocal minority is still just as small, regardless of how loud or obnoxious they get. They could increase their size 10-fold and still be just as irrelevant in the overall picture.
The only concern I have is that desperation can lead certain folks to snap in a dangerous way, to the point that they feel they have nothing to lose by taking action to harm others. I’ve been expressing this concern since the last election and I think that truism always holds in general.
Therefore, I will not be surprised at all (and sadly, fully expect) to see an uptick in violent acts or threats amongst an increasingly desperate and unhinged subset of the population, leading up to the election…and depending on the results, possibly even more so for the months and year to follow.
I suggest you “Research” what the Great Depression was actually like and compare it to today’s situation. It’s like comparing a very bad cold to raging pneumonia. Something that you believe might occur in the future is simply speculation. If you believe that a Depression will occur between 2012 and 2016 and you hate Obama, then you should vote for him in 2012, because if a Republican is in office, they will get the blame regardless of whose fault it might be.
The pumping money you refer to was the Federal Reserve policy of Quantitative Easing. They are an independent body so I don’t know where Obama stood on it.. And it was the right policy in the face of a very serious threat of a deflationary spiral, which Japan has been stuck in for over 20 years now. Bernanke has studied the Japanese situation in great depth and, with all due respect, I trust his knowledge over yours. Commodity prices fluctuate. They rise when the prospects for growth improve and fall when there are fears of recession.
But birthers express themselves so rationally:
Norbert [redacted last name] commented on wnd.com (and on Facebook):
A BLACK AND WHITE ( “and white”‘ A MUST!) MONKEY NOT NECESSARILY FROM JUNGLES OF KENYA OR INDONESIA WOULD HAVE A GREAT CHANCE IF COULD STATE: CAN’T WRITE- CAN’T SIGNATURE EXECUTIVE ORDERS! HEY LIBERALS –
SEARCH THE JUNGLES AND ZOO GARDENS!
IMPEACH-PROSECUTE AND MELT IN A BARREL OD MURIATIC ACID THE ILLEGAL BASTARD HUSSEIN OBAMA-HOMOBAMA
HOW MANY MILLIONS OF ILLEGALS AND FELONS WERE ALLOWED TO VOTE FOR HUSSEIN OBAMA?!!! HOW MANY ADDITIONAL MILLIONS OF THEM WILL VOTE FOR OBAMA. IMPEACH HIM-PROSECUTE HIM AND EXECUTE HIM BEFORE NEXT ELECTION AND LET AMERICAN PEOPLE VOTE WITHOUT THE FEAR OF GOVERNMENT
OBAMA, OBAMA – HOMOBAMA !!! TO BAD YOUR ALLEGED MOTHER DID NOT ABORT YOU TOO HOWEVER A KENYAN TRIBESMAN GOT GREAT IDEA AND TALK HER OUT OF IT – AND EVEN OFFERED HER TO ADAPT THAT EMBRYO – SO YOU BASTARD ARE MAYBE VERY FIRST
“ANCHOR EMBRYO” WOW, WOW – ANOTHER FIRST FOR YOU – BRAVO! BRAVO NOW- WAIT A MOMENT- WHY DON’T YOU TAKE A DNA TEST!!! WOOOOW YOU KNOW WHAT HUSSEIN – YOU COULD BE A TRUE AMERICAN JUST AS THAT WATCHACOLLIT CONSTITUTION REQUIRES – THOUGH IN THIS CASE STILL HARD TO PROVE BUT AT LEAST A KENYAN CANNIBAL
WOULD NOT BE YOU FATHER!!!!
HA HA HA – THOSE BIRTHERS WOULD EAT THEIR OWN ….. ! HA HA HA
GIVE ME FIVE OBAMA-HOMOBAMA C’MON C’MON – GIVE ME FIVE – DID NOT I HELP YOU TO HAVE CHANCE FOR SECOND TERM – YOU KNOW – THOSE, THOSE STUPIDO AMERICANO WILL TURN NUTS FOR YOU – JUST AS FIRST TIME HA HA HA!!
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1160367935&sk=wall
Ben Bernanke, Chairman of the Federal Reserve, is a conservative and a Republican, originally appointed by President George W. Bush. It was his decision to “pump out money into the economy.” That was done to keep a severe recession from becoming a depression.
One of the things that Obama accomplished was keeping Ben Bernanke on at the Fed instead of putting the nation through more turmoil with any radical change of philosophy in monetary policy during a time of great economic stress. Obama opted for consistency of policy over change.
Seriously? People find her an object of sexual desire? Orly Taitz is at best average looking, in my humble opinion.
I think the error is assuming that not dodging things in court will somehow prevent future lawsuits. It has been shown over and over that birthers are oblivious to official determinations of anything. When courts have ruled, for example in Ankeny v Daniels, the birthers have dismissed the results.
The jig is up. Mario and friends have figured it out.
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2011/11/is-putative-president-barack-hussein.html
Would you be so kind as to summarize for us? I really don’t want to add to his click count.
I should have posted this under the “Taking Its Toll” article.
Mario and friends have been suggesting that President Obama is the son of Malcom X. Now based on a traffic accident that happended in March, 1982 in Honolulu, he is calling for a “thorough investigation”.
Apparently, a person named Bari Shabazz was involved in a “major accident” and was driving without a driver license. It went to traffic court and well, if you connect all the dots,
“What also supports Ms. Trowbridge’s position that Bâri′ M. Shabazz really did not die in August 1994 and that he is still alive as Barack Hussein Obama II is that the traffic court in Hawaii was still acting on the Bari Shabazz traffic case 9 and 11 years after the alleged death in August 1994 of Bâri′ M. Shabazz.”
Mario wants a “thorough investigation of this matter”.
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2011/11/is-putative-president-barack-hussein.html
It might not stop the Vattle Birthers from their silly lawsuits, but I think it would stop the ones trying to get access to the original paperwork. Once you get it, you kind of get it. A person would have a hard time asking for it again. Plus, you defuse the “he’s dodging it” claim. But this stuff is not going to get resolved before the election. Obama needs the Birthers.
The Head Researcher
The law in Hawaii doesn’t allow access to original birth records. It allows access to “certified copies” of original birth records if the person attempting to obtain or inspect a record has “an order from a court of competent jurisdiction.” Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18(b).
Judges are prone to follow the law of a state and thus far, no one seeking access to the President’s birth record has been able to obtain an order from a court of competent jurisdiction.
Across two different administrations, one Republican and one Democratic, the state of Hawaii has consistently stated that President Obama’s original birth records are on file and valid and that they reside in a bound volume of 1961 birth certificates that is now in a safe in the Department of Health in Honolulu.
“Obama Birth Record Moved to a More Secure Location Months Ago,” Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/27/obama-birth-certificate-moved-secure-location-months-ago/
James777:
The law always allows law enforcement people access to records. The only question here is whether Hawaii will tell the Cold Posse to MYOB or not. If they want to let them in The Vault, they can. Or not. Either is legal. If they let the Posse in, I think the remaining die-hard Common Sense Suspicious Birthers are toast. And they will have to become conspiracy theory people.
The Head Researcher
The CCP group consists of a few ex-cops and lawyers (officers of the court). They have no law enforcement powers.
Hawaii will no more humor this “posse” as it will the nutjob birthers, Orly or WNnutD. These nuts cannot be satisfied.
Ummmmm…… nooooooooooo it doesn’t
I’m afraid that you are mistaken. Law enforcement personnel need court orders just like anyone else.
Police get search warrants and arrest warrants from a judge before executing their duties.
The easist way to get a case thrown out of court is to violate the rules of civil or criminal procedure.
Please remember that it has been the State of Hawaii’s Attorney General’s office, under both the previous Republican administration of Linda Lingle and the current Democratic administration of Neil Abercrombie that has denied access to Obama’s original birth certificate without a court order from a court of competent jurisdiction and they have quoted the law in their denials of access.
Not without a court order.
Explain to me why I should care.
That’s not true. Law enforcement people have to have a “tangible interest” in the records, just like anyone else.
At the very least, law enforcement would need a valid court order, and even then Hawaii DOH would likely fight it in court.
The proof of what Rickey is saying is that Orly Taitz has already attempted to get access to President Obama’s original birth certificate through filing an
“Ex-Parte Emergency Motion for Order to Show Cause and to Compel Attendance for Production of Documents” with United States District Court Magistrate Judge Richard L. Puglisi in Honolulu. Judge Puglisi denied Ms. Taitz motion.
If he had granted her motion, he could have issued a valid court order for the production of documents by the state of Hawaii’s Department of Health.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio and the Arizona Cold Case Posse can try the same approach as Orly Taitz, but they are likely to find that federal judges react the same way to them as they have to Orly Taitz.
I suppose, if the sheriff asked, the state may actually provide verification that Obama was born there (as is allowed by law). However, since they have already done that, many times, it would be a useless step. As for allowing anybody else to actual inspect the records without a court order, I don’t think so.
Since some birthers have already stated that the original was forged (why else would they hide it, etc. etc.), what is the point of playing their game.
Just when we thought it was safe to take off the slicker and galoshes squeeky goes off the rails again.
I have been busy writing a parody song, “What part of Doubts Don’t You Understand???”, so I haven’t had a lot of time today, BUT. . .it is my understanding law enforcement can do a subpoena for info, and that they don’t need a court order for that. If I am wrong on that point, then I am sorry. I am not sure that a person needs a court order for records already in the possession of the government. For example, the cops can run your license tag or your driver’s license without a court order. They can even go thru the driver’s icense database when they feel like it.
Even if they can do a subpoena, I am not sure that Hawaii would comply with it. If anybody can find where the popo has to get a search warrant to go thru its own records, please let me know. Because unlike Vattle Birthers and Obots, I do not mind changing my mind if I am wrong about something. Plus, here is the latest exciting Internet Article which slams Leo Donofrio and Mario Apuzzo. It helps if you have had a few drinks before you sing the original version. Trust me on this.
http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/what-part-of-doubts-dont-you-understand-a-parody-song/
The Head Researcher
Any lawyer who has an active lawsuit can issue a subpoena for anything. However, issuing a subpoena and getting compliance with a subpoena can be two very different things. Orly, Andy Marting, and perhaps others have served Hawaii with subpoenas, but Hawaii has yet to comply with any of them, and not court has ordered Hawaii to comply. That is precisely what will happen if Sheriff Joe’s so-called posse tries to see Obama’s records.
The police can run your license plates and driving record because state laws specifically give them the authorization to do so. However, they need to have a permissible reason for doing it. If a police officer sees an attractive woman driving down the street, he can’t run her license plate to find out her name and where she lives. However, if he catches her speeding, running a red light, etc., he can get that information. He can’t do it just because “he feels like it.” Police have lost their jobs for doing that.
The posse doesn’t have a tangible interest in Obama’s original birth certificate, so they are never going to see it no matter how many subpoenas are issued.
Rickey:
You said: “The posse doesn’t have a tangible interest in Obama’s original birth certificate, so they are never going to see it no matter how many subpoenas are issued.”
I think maybe yes, maybe no. An argument can be made that the police during a criminal investigation always have a tangible interest. I tried googling and I could not find one way or the other. Here is a hypothetical The police are looking for John who did not show up for trial. They go to their DOH to see who his mom and pops are, to get names and maybe an address. Do they have to get a court order first???
The Head Researcher
there are no police. there is no criminal investigation.
What crime is being investigated? A “fraudulent BC” in a vault in Hawaii is not a crime in Arizona. Said BC was never presented to the State of Arizona. There is no Arizona crime.
I doubt that the DOH in Hawaii would give information to Arizona cops regarding an Arizona alleged crime (and a highly dubious one at that) without an OK from the Hawaii AG. Out of state requests have to go through channels.
If that’s the only way they can find out who mom and pops are they are pretty shoddy investigators. And yes, they would need a court order.
If they don’t know who his parents are, how do they even know if he was born in that state?
There is a difference between investigating an actual crime and going on a fishing expedition to find a crime. The fact is that there is no credible evidence that anyone has committed a crime relative to Obama’s birth records.
Even if the posse could get a court order to see Obama’s birth certificate, the best they could hope to receive is a certified copy of the document which Obama has already released. Pursuant to the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution – the very Constitution which the birthers claim to revere – every court in the U.S. has to accept a state-issued certified copy.
Face it, Squeeky, the posse will be getting nothing from Hawaii.
Keith: You said: “If that’s the only way they can find out who mom and pops are they are pretty shoddy investigators. And yes, they would need a court order.”
Can you find where it says that on the Internet. Because I could not find out one way or the other.
Aaargh: You said this:”There are no police. There is no criminal investigation.”
I am not sure what their status is. I looked it up yesterday, and I found this:
In order to join the Posse program, a person must be at least 18 years old, a US citizen, have a valid Arizona driver’s license and be in good health. A person cannot have been convicted of any felonies or have any misdeamenor convictions in the last 12 months or record of improper personal conduct – which will be discovered during the background check – that may affect their suitability for law enforcement work.
http://www.mcso.org/About/Posse.aspx
Rickey: You said: “Face it, Squeeky, the posse will be getting nothing from Hawaii.”
I don’t have a cat in this fight, so I could pretty much care less one way or the other. The Posse may come out and say it is all a bunch of BeeEss, or not. Who knows, I think it is interesting the ways it could play out.
The Head Researcher
Squeeky-There is no crime. Period.. And even if someone in Hawaii had a fake birth certificate that isn’t a crime in Arizona. So even if Sheriff Joe sent real deputies, there is no jurisdictiion in Hawaii. I bet you didn;t know that even real cops can’t come in from out of state and arrest you or serve a warrant on you. The AG of their state has to request the AG of your state to enforce any warrant.
And by the way being 18, a US citizen and a non-felon does not make you a cop.
If the Arizona Cold Case Posse’ gets a court order, I believe that the state of Hawaii would be happy to issue them a certified copy of Barack Obama’s short form COLB.
The law in Hawaii does not permit release of ORIGINAL documents to anyone under any circumstances. The best the Posse’ can hope for is access to a certified copy.
As others have already pointed out, there is no criminal investigation going on in Arizona. When the Cold Case Posse’ finishes its investigation, Sheriff Arpaio might turn the results of their investigation over to the Maricopa County District Attorney who could then launch a Grand Jury investigation to see if a Grand Jury would be willing to issue any indictments.
of anybody for anything.
After an original jurisdiction trial and state and federal appeals, I’m sure that this issue could be resolved in two or three years.
The Maricopa County Cold Case Posse’ can save themselves some trouble and expense. The Stanley Ann Dunham-Barack Hussein Obama divorce decree is available online at scribd.com and on page two it names Barack Hussein Obama II, a son as being “issue” from said mariiage. The decree was signed on Janurary 25, 1964 by Hawaii First Circuit Court Judge Stanley F. King.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12234409/Divorce-Decree-1964-13-Pages-Merged
“As others have already pointed out, there is no criminal investigation going on in Arizona.”
Well, it looks to me like if the Cold Case Posse is looking at it, then it is a criminal investigation. If they don’t find anything, then the investigation goes KAPOOF. But in the meantime, it’s an investigation.
Just like if the popo grabs your garbage bags. They are doing a criminal investigation. If there is no buds and paraphernalia in the garbage bag, then they fail to “nailya” and the investigation goes KAPOOF.
I don’t think the Cold Case Posse will find anything, and the remaining die hard Common Sense Suspicious Birthers better hope the report does not come in too soon, or they will go KAPOOF. IMO (which means In My Opinion)
The Head Researcher
What crime are they investigating?
Ever hear of probable cause? Do you actually believe the cops could decide to go through your garbage because they feel like it and if they find something they bust you and if they don’t that’s OK” Have you ever read the Constitution? Seriously, you should move to North Korea, because that may suit you better.
Scientist:
A person does not have any expectation of privacy in their garbage. The police can take it off your curb whenever without a court order. That is the way I understand it. Then they can take whatever they find and get a search warrant for you house. Don’t blame me for this. Just be careful what you throw away.
The Head Researcher
OH Plus, World Net Daily has a new Sheriff Joe story:
He said his law enforcement investigation is being professionally conducted and is wide-ranging in scope. It includes an investigation into whether or not Barack Obama is using a fraudulent Social Security number, as WND has previously reported, as well as whether the birth certificate issued by the White House on April 27 is a forgery.
Arpaio said he was also surprised by how vile the threats he has gotten from Obama supporters turn out to be.
“I’ve got the drug cartels from Mexico sending me death threats,” he said, “and now I have the Obama supporters sending me death threats. I’m not sure which are worse.”
Read more: Sheriff Joe threatened for probing eligibility
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=366125
They don’t need a court order to look at your garbage, but they do need a probable cause that a crime has been committed. Do you honestly think the police could decide to collect everyone’s garbage from the even-numbered side of the street just to see if there was anything illegal in it? Please give me a “yes” or a “No”.
Now, “expectation of privacy”. Do you have an exppectation of privacy regardinng your birth certificate kept by the place you were born. Yes or no?
Supposing I am a professional scammer and use a fraudulent SSN in New Jersey and
have a fake b.c. in Indiana. Can Sheriiff Joe investigate? Nope. None of those are crimes committed in Arizona. Do you get that states can only investigate crimes coommitted in their state? Yes or no?
Scientist:
Do you honestly think the police could decide to collect everyone’s garbage from the even-numbered side of the street just to see if there was anything illegal in it? Please give me a “yes” or a “No”. (Yes.)
Now, “expectation of privacy”. Do you have an expectation of privacy regarding your birth certificate kept by the place you were born. Yes or no?(Not from the police.)
Supposing I am a professional scammer and use a fraudulent SSN in New Jersey and
have a fake b.c. in Indiana. Can Sheriiff Joe investigate? Nope. None of those are crimes committed in Arizona. Do you get that states can only investigate crimes committed in their state? Yes or no? (No.)
The Head Researcher
no, it is a bunch of birfers working on a term paper.
Squeeky: All 3 of your answers are incorrect in the US. I can’t speak for North Korea where things might be different,. The police don’t have anywhere near the powers you think.
Have you asked yourself the question, “What is Joe Arpaio hiding?”
Start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#Controversies
Integrity (or the lack) and motives are relevant.
M Will:
I don’t live in Arizona. I could care less about Sheriff Joe.
The Head Researcher
You don’t care but you’ve been discussing him, his idiotic posse and bogus investigations ad nauseam?
Have you lost it again?
squeeky, you’re scrambling for legitimacy with your arguments, and have been since your very first post where you suggested that President Obama should actually consider appeasing crazy birthers.
M Will:
I don’t much care about Sheriff Joe one way or the other except for curiosity how this little soap opera will play out. Which, I don’t think it will play out until after the election, if then. Which is good for the remaining birthers. Because going to Sheriff Joe could have been a big mistake for them. Which it looks like they will dodge. And a good lesson in bad strategy for the Obots, who don’t have a clue what is going on.
To me, this is like watching a fight between the Three Stooges and the Keystone Kops, where each side is busy hitting their own team with pies and poking themselves in the eye.
Jayhg:
I am not scrambling for anything. I have nothing to prove to anybody in this one. I made a few comments is all.
The Head Researcher
squeeky, Stop it, please. Others are right here and you are wrong. You keep trying to find legitimacy in this posse, while also saying you “don’t have a dog in the fight.” You seem to desparately want this posse to be something other than a bunch of dumb ass birthers pretending mightily that they are legitimate. THEY ARE NOT, THEY WILL GET NO WHERE NO MATTER WHAT THEY “FIND,” WHICH IF THEY FIND ANYTHING AT ALL, IT WILL BE A BUNCH OF THE USUAL BIRTHER SPECULATION AND GUESSES.
And if they happen to go through anyone’s garbage and come up with something they think they can use, it will be tossed out because of……..wait for it………..PROBABLE CAUSE. They don’t have any. AArggggggg!
I think she’s become invested in crazy Joe having some unusual powers……..and she doesn’t understand the legal term “probable cause” AT ALL.
A few………you are all over this board trying to act as if this posse is anything but a few crazy birthers and trying to liken to them to what you call Obots….
jayhg:
OK, first I am making a official note of this thing you said:
And if they happen to go through anyone’s garbage and come up with something they think they can use, it will be tossed out because of……..wait for it………..PROBABLE CAUSE. They don’t have any. AArggggggg!
Then, I am giving you this:
Law enforcement officers all have received calls about “that house”: a house generally associated with multiple reports of suspicious activity, but responding officers never find evidence of anything criminal. Officers have gone by “that house” many times and have discovered nothing to support any suspicions. They yearn to conduct surveillance of the house, but their agency is understaffed in patrol and is busy responding to calls for service.
Sometimes, though, an officer does not need to walk away empty-handed. Sometimes, something can be done—“dumpster diving.” What many law enforcement officers may have forgotten is that once trash or garbage is moved from a house and to the street for disposal, it is considered abandoned. Once the garbage is at the street, it is fair game for anyone—even the police—to take it away for inspection.
Surprisingly, most less-than-law-abiding citizens do not give much thought to their garbage and are unaware that they are placing potential incriminating evidence out for collection. There is no legal or practical reason that a “trash pull” cannot be a meaningful method for initiating a narcotics investigation.
Trash pulls are a method for obtaining incriminating evidence that often provides legal grounds to obtain a search warrant of a home. However, as with every aspect of law enforcement, officers need to think and plan before acting. In particular, officers need to understand the law and gather legally sufficient evidence to establish probable cause before attempting to have a search warrant issued. Often, officers are in such a rush to arrest a suspect that immediately after finding marijuana seeds, stems, or cocaine residue in a trash pull, they rush to the courthouse to get a search warrant.
In many instances, though, a single trash pull is insufficient. It is important to remember that to obtain a search warrant, the officer needs probable cause to believe that evidence will be located inside the residence, and not just that evidence was in the residence in the past.
There is no reasonable expectation of privacy for trash after it has been placed out for pickup.1 It is common knowledge that once garbage bags are left on the side of the road, they are readily accessible to animals, children, scavengers, snoops, and other members of the public.2 It is important to establish that garbage seized by the police was readily accessible to the public. Courts have recently upheld the warrantless seizure of garbage from within the curtilage of a home.3 In this case, the court engaged in a very fact-specific analysis that the garbage left near the garage of Mr. Segura’s house and in open view was readily accessible to the public, even though it was within the curtilage of Segura’s house. Although the court upheld this seizure, investigators should consult with their department legal advisors or units prior to seizing trash within the curtilage of a home.
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=2105&issue_id=62010v
I am not just TOTALLY stupid you know.
The Head Researcher
Fine, but that is not what you said originally. You suggest that the police could just willy nilly go around picking up trash, find something and then go and arrest people.
What you are describing re: activity at a house is PROBABLE CAUSE, meaning they have reasonable suspicisions that something is going on of an illegal nature and so then it makes sense to get, say, garbage left at the curb. Now they cannot go into the house and get the garbage unless they have enough PROBABLE CAUSE to get a search warrant. They have to wait for it to be put out and THEN it’s anyone’s who wants it, police, dumpster divings, or even you.
You originally said they could just get garbage (which they can), but you also said they could then arrest folks IF they found something illegal (which they cannot do!), The courts will throw out evidence not obtained lawfully, which it will not be obtained lawfully if the police pass by my house right now, see me putting out my garbage and willy nilly decide that they don’t like how I look and go through it. If they find something illegal, they can’t do anything about it. They have to then maybe do some surveilance or something to get their probable cause and THEN come after me, using my garbage to support their case. But they could NOT use the original garbage they found………they had no probable cause at that time.
You seem not to want to admit that this posse is composed of a bunch of birthers on an emotional crusade that will make then MORE frustrated when them come up, as you say, empty handed.
Jayhg:
Quoting ME from above:
A person does not have any expectation of privacy in their garbage. The police can take it off your curb whenever without a court order. That is the way I understand it. Then they can take whatever they find and get a search warrant for you house. Don’t blame me for this. Just be careful what you throw away. unquote.
So, yes the popo can grab your stuff off the curb willy nilly.If they found a gun in your trash, and it has your fingerprints on it, and the ballistics match a murder, they can arrest you off that alone. Haven’t you ever watched TV, where they drag a ake and find a weapon??? They don’t get a search warrant to drag the lake, unless it is a private lake.
I am NOT just TOTALLY stupid or anything, plus I do typing and stuff for my BFF Fabia Sheen, Esq., a lawyer, and I try to learn stuff from that. Plus, I have a Think Tank, too.
The Head Researcher
This is not about an expectancy of privacy or a court order. AND you are wrong. If they go through garbage in front of my house and find a gun, they won’t know who put it there so NO. You add all that about finger prints and stuff like that. You’ve gone way down the road here.
You originally said that the police could get garbage and, here’s where you went off the rail: YOU THEN SAID THAT IF THEY FOUND SOMETHING IN IT, THEY COULD GO AND ARREST PEOPLE. YOU ARE WRONG – THEY CANNOT. They don’t have to have probably cause to go through garbage at the curb. But no one can get arrested as you originally said they could.
You are now changing your argument to focus on expectation of privacy and court order. This was not what you said at first. I’m telling you that your ORIGINAL STATEMENT that they can willy nilly go through garbage and IF they find something illegal, they can go make an arrest. THIS WHAT YOU SAID IS WRONG.
You now want to try to change it around instead of saying let me look back and yes, you are right. I did say that but no, the police cannot go through garbage and make arrests.
They can confirm some suspicions by going through garbage and hope to find confirmation of those suspisions, but that’s it.
There can be no willy nilly there’s jayHG putting out her garbage and I’m bored so let me look through it and see if I can find something to arrest her for, maybe a gun. That’s insane. If the police did police work this way, we’d all be in big trouble.
I don’t care what happens to my garbage once I throw it out and I obviously don’t think about privacy in that instance cause its not my garbage anymore. It’s yours if you want it. But if you find something in it, there’s no chain of custody and stuff like that.
You’re still trying to shore up that birfer posse……….go to your best friend, offer up your first scenario and see what she says.
It is probably unfair to characterize the posse as “a bunch of birthers”.
They are a couple of Joe’s drinking buddies, retired from the service or the bar, who like to keep themselves interested in life by looking at old cases. Sorta like a poor man’s Dennis Waterman 😎 (If you get the reference).
Joe gave them this job to appease Orly and the wacko faction in his support base. Orly probably performed a sexual favor to convince him, but who knows?
I think you may have stumbled across an important point here. I am sure that in Russia, even today, this is not the case. And I doubt very much that police officers under Franco, Pinochet or Suharto cared about warrants.
How many birfers are imports from those countries? Of course, it does not help that people like Arpaio seem to behave as if they have the same powers as police officers under Stalin or Pinochet.
Even in Weestern Europe, where privacy law does not normally apply against the police, there are limits to what the police can do with evidence gathered by accident, without a court order or probable cause. A school that is alarmed by the absence of pupils of school-going age will notify the police, who will, if and when they have time to imvestigate, visit the parents’ home. Often, they will then find that the parents are illegal immigrants. Obviously, that evidence cannot be used, and the police would be breaking the law if they then notified immigration services. If the police find that the reason why the children now and then stay away from school is that the parents are visiting the Netherlands, that is another matter. That one does concern the childrens’ safety.
Just picture a European two sents coin with King Albert on the other side now. It may be a little different in France or Germany.
That last one looks like Orlglish. Western, children’s and cents. Sorry about that. Hit “submit” by accident. Axi-dentally, as Orly would say.
Yes, you are. totally and completely and determined to prove it on a daily basis. Because you think fake police from Arizona can get on a plane and magically become real police with actual powers in Hawaii. Even if Sheriff Joe went to Hawaii in person he has no more authority there than you or I. Hawaii can and will tell him to take a hike. Count on it.
That does explain your research training. Thanks.
Officer O’Leary: Chief, I’d like to drag Indian Lake.
Chief Quinn: Why?
Officer O’Leary: We might find a knife at the bottom.
Chief Quinn: Why?
Officer O’Leary: Well, you remember that woman that was stabbed a few months ago?
Chief Quinn: Yes. Did anyone see anyone throw a knife in Indian Lake?
Officer O’Leary: No.
Chief Quinn: What makes you think the knife is at the bottom of Indian Lake?
Officer O’Leary: Nothing, Chief.
Chief Quinn: O’Leary, have you been drinking again? There is vacancy in the Parking Bureau and you seem like just the guy for that job.
Scientist:
You are misinformed about WHEN probable cause is necessary. I gave you a link above, which you should read. Or, we can apply YOUR theory with this:
Chief Quinn: We have a triple homicide at the jewelry store. Check the dumpsters and sewer drains to see if they got rid of the gats and ski masks there.
Officer O’leary: OK, Chief, do we have a search warrants for all this???
Chief Quinn: Huh??? For dumpsters and sewer drains???
Officer O’leary: Yeah Chief, we don’t have any probable cause to search them.
Chief Quinn: WTF are you talking about???
Officer O’leary: Probable cause, Chief, probable cause. We don’t have any probable cause to check dumpsters and sewer drains for this stuff. Actually, we don’t have probable cause to check anywhere for this stuff.
Chief Quinn: What, do you think we should all just go back to the donut shop and read the paper???
Officer O’leary: Sounds good to me.
Chief Quinn: O’leary, do you have tickets to the game???
Officer O’leary: Yes, Chief, the Mets and the Patriots are playing at 2:00.
Chief Quinn: Car 54, Where Are You???
The Head Researcher
The dumpsters and sewers near the store maybe. But if the jewelry store was in Phoenix, it wouldn’t make sense to check the drains and dumpsters in Tucson. Even less in Honolulu.
See in my example, I’m not saying that the cops can’t drag the lake. I’m saying they won’t unless there is some reason to think the weapon might be there. Even if they “could”.
Now in the Sheriff Joe case, there was no robbery or triple murder at all. In fact there was no crime. So if you think the cops should go through dumpsters and drains when there was no crime committed within 100 miles of that location, your career in law enforcement is over.
But where you really went wrong is when you said, “the Mets and the Patriots are playing at 2:00”. Because the Mets are a baseball team and the Patriots are a football team and they don’t play each other ever. A cop that doesn’t know that is off the force for good.
Scientist:
“Now in the Sheriff Joe case, there was no robbery or triple murder at all. In fact there was no crime.”
I think you are probably right. Maybe Sheriff Joe’s posse will come to the same conclusion. Or not. it will be fun to watch.
The Head Researcher
As much fun as a Mets-Patriots game?
If the Mets get to use their bats and baseballs, then you have my attention.
It doesn’t matter what conclusion the “posse” reaches. It has no jurisdiction and no authority to do anything except get together and shoot the breeze.
Supposedly the “posse” is investigating two issues: whether Obama’s long-form birth certificate is a forgery and whether Obama is using someone else’s Social Security Number.
It is impossible for a forensics expert to give a reasoned opinion about the authenticity of a document without examining the actual document. That isn’t going to happen.
It is impossible to establish that a stolen SSN is being used without having access to the Social Security Administration’s records. That isn’t going to happen.
The sheriff has no jurisdiction over the two issues being investigated, and he has no authority to compel the production and inspection of Hawaii’s records or the Social Security Administration’s records. So the “investigation” is going nowhere, just as all of the birther lawsuits have gotten nowhere.
Head Researcher…
1. You’re mis-informed on the reason why Garbage doesn’t actually require a search warrant. It is because the person holding it has abandoned it, and therefore has no reasonable expectation of privacy. However, the police cannot walk upto the side of your house and look in your trash can if it is on the side of your house. There is no abandonment there. You still maintain possession. The only time that the police can look through your garbage is if it out on the curb as the act of putting it out on the curb constitutes the abandonment of the property.
2. There is absolutely no relationship between the abandonment of property and the storage of vital records. First off, the property that you’re alledging that Obama abandoned was never Obama’s in the first place, but the Hawaii Department of Health’s. It was never in Obama’s possession, and Obama has no direct ownership over that property. Secondly, there is no tangible interest, which is a direct requirement for it to be released. There is no active case, no charges that have been brought, and not even a list of potential charges that the Sheriff’s Office of Maricopa County has even jurisdiction over. That’s what you don’t get. The Sheriff’s Office would be in serious hot water if they just all of a sudden just collected information without an active case, and even the sheriff is saying that there’s no active case (otherwise, why would he have volunteers investigate this rather than paid law enforcement officials tracking down an active case?). There is absolutely no relationship between the abandonment exception and the storage of public records. You can’t use California v. Greenwood to say that the police have a right, no matter of what case, to arbitrairly ask any government for records that are protected by privacy laws.
Which is probably why the Sheriff was able to confidently state there would be no cost to the taxpayer. Real investigations cost money. Getting together to shoot the breeze is cheap.
The movie “The Star Chamber” has a very interesting subplot involving police searching garbage without a warrent. It stuck in my mind for almost 30 years.
Unless he’s a cop in Bridgewater, New Jersey?
Seriously, I know there is a league difference. Head Researcher’s mistake sounds like a mistake a non-American or a recent immigrant might make.
“It’s all pipes!”