Mario Apuzzo (right) has uploaded a copy of the appeal [now deleted] that he filed on May 18 with the Superior Court of New Jersey Appellate Division of the decision in Purpura v. Obama to Scribd.
You may recall that administrative law judge Jeff Masin determined that in New Jersey a presidential candidate doesn’t even have to consent for his name to be on the ballot, much less prove anything, and that as a matter of law there is no requirement that US Presidents have two US citizen parents.
Attorney Apuzzo, who is a strong advocate for the theory that Obama is not eligible because his father wasn’t a US citizen, disagrees and filed the appeal that’s featured below. The appeal includes a copy of the official court transcript in which it cannot be found that Obama’s attorney in any way admitted that the long form birth certificate (LFBC) released by the White House was a forgery and you’ll find the judge lamenting the fact that no one gave him an Obama birth certificate coffee mug (I’m being facetious).
Like Orly Taitz, Apuzzo has adopted the “kitchen sink” strategy of including all sorts of birther theories, adding the Breitbart News article about a pamphlet saying Obama was born in Kenya, and copying the Arpaio Cold Case Posse claims about Selective Service forgery. I have said from the beginning that Apuzzo is about publicity and not about winning. I think this latest filing bears that out. Still he cites six and a half pages of authorities.
Apuzzo misrepresents Judge Masin’s decision when he says:
…we can conclude that the ALJ found that Obama was born in Hawaii
Actually, the judge accepted a Hawaiian birth hypothetically to deal with the claim that Apuzzo made that even if Obama were born in Hawaii, he’s not a natural born citizen. If the Judge found Obama was born in Hawaii, then Apuzzo did too because he makes the same hypothetical starting point for argument.
Purpura-Moran v. Obama Brief and Appendix Filed 5-18-12
That photo of Apuzzo reminds me of The Amazing Criswell, a American psychic who appeared in the opening sequence of the schlock science fiction movie, Plan 9 from Outer Space. Perhaps hereinafter I’ll call him”The Amazing Apuzzo.”
Watch the video from Plan 9.
Apuzzo is a zen budhist, he enjoys losing, that’s what he lives for!
I think Apuzzo takes issue in the wording of Judge Marin regarding Obama’s Hawaii Birth. Mario believes based on the wording and context in which Judge Marin writes that he has accepted as fact that Obama was born in Hawaii. That simply cannot be true given the record and is ground for reversal appeal. The wording and context of Judge Marin does not suggest he is merely engaging hypothically but appears to make the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii when no fact has been submitted to record on this.
No John, Mario is wrong. Judge Masin only assumed birth in Hawaii for his analysis of the two citizen parent theory. Judges make those type of assumptions all the time in court decisions.
But what is really interesting his Mario’s analysis of St. George Tucker Commentaries. Mario does not quote from Tucker and he provides no footnotes to Tucker’s work to back up his assertions of what Tucker supposedly wrote.
Apuzzo quotes that one line from the decision “Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a ‘natural born citizen’ regardless of the status of his father.”
It is clear that Judge Marin did not rule that Obama was born in Hawaii. He ruled that the two-parent citizen theory is incorrect, just as every other judge who has ruled on the matter. Here is the full paragraph from the decision, containing that sentence.
“Time does not allow for the fullest discussion of the case law addressing these issues, but suffice it to say that the status of “natural born Citizen” for Mr. Obama has not been denied by any court or administrative agency that has addressed the merits of the issue. This is not the place to write a law review article on the full analysis of the subject, but there is no legal authority that has been cited or otherwise provided that supports a contrary position. The petitioners’ legal position on this issue, however well intentioned, has no merit in law. Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr.Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a “natural born Citizen” regardless of the status of his father.”
Love the Criswell comparison.
It sure would be interesting to know who is paying Mario.
Is this your opinion as an attorney?
“Mario believes based on the wording and context . . .”
Do you represent Mario Apuzzo?
More delicious word salad from The Putz.
The Arizona fiasco is ‘resolved’ and then Mario’s begins anew.
Coincidence? or organized tag team? I make report, you decide.
Op-ed: none of these maneuvers ever overlap, how could they be anything other than coordinated?
And Doc, the ‘plot’, such as it is, is definitely worthy of Ed Wood.
Apuzzo filed the appeal May 18.
If Obama can time travel, so can Apuzzo.
Edit: and besides, organization means they can plan ahead. ‘They’ knew when Bennett was going to fold, so they whistled for the next cab off the rank.
I’m not sayin’; I’m just sayin’.
Good point, Gorefan! Here’s an example of why Mario has to paraphrase Tucker instead of quoting him- are you listening, John? Hint: It’s because Mario’s interpretation of what Tucker meant, is inconsistent with what Tucker actually wrote.
Accordingly, Mario could hardly want to emphasize St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries 1:App. 316–25, 328—29 wherein Tucker declares:
“That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence, which, where-ever it is capable of being exerted, is to be dreaded more than the plague.”
Ironically, Mario’s website prominently attempts to style Mario as “Bocca Della Verita” which means, “The Mouth of Truth”. The misleading crap that he actually expels there proves he is more accurately termed “The Sphincter of Lies”
Oh, Mario! In the name of honesty, consider changing your web site’s slogan to, “Che un sito web povero tessiamo, quando prima si pratica legale per ingannare” which roughly translates to, ” Oh what a poor web site we weave, when first we practice law to deceive.”
Meretricious Mario continues his shameless propaganda on behalf of white extremists. Nothing new here.
Looks like Ole Mario the Putz is jonesing for ANOTHER court to sweetly ask him to show cause why he shouldn’t be sanctioned……
With all due respect to Mr Tucker, he is flat-out wrong. First, the plague is far worse than foreign influence. Not even close. Second, the Constitution does zip to prevent foreign influence-K Street is loaded with lobbyists for foreign governments and corporations. If that doesn’t buy influence, then why are those paying them shelling out all that money?
In his discussion of Dr. Ramsay’s dissertation, Mario fails to point out that dissertation was part of his petition to Congress to overturn the 1788 election of William L. Smith. And that Congress including James Madison and four other signers of the Constitution rejected Dr. Ramsay’s ideas on acquiring citizenship.
Maybe he could use this as his website motto: “The slickest way in the world to lie is to tell the right amount of truth at the right time-and then shut up.” Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
Puzzo and Orly are all about publicity. they both are grifters, racists, and liars.
Gorefan,
You are the one who is a liar. Did it ever occur to you that I did not think that the Ramsay-Smith debate was relevant to Ramsay’s definition of a “natural born Citizen,” especially in a limited-space appellate brief?
Again, the Ramsay-Smith eligibility debate had nothing to do with “natural born Citizen” which Ramsay defined as those born after July 4, 1776 to citizen parents. Rather, it had all to do with whether Smith was a “Citizen of the United States” for seven years so as to meet the requirements of Article I, Section 2. The only thing Congress decided was whether Ramsay was right or wrong on whether Smith was such a 7-year “citizen,” belonging to the class of the “original” “citizens.” Smith did not have to be nor could he be a “natural born Citizen, for he was born before July 4, 1776. Hence, Congress did not decide whether Ramsay’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was right or wrong, but rather only if his claim that Smith did not deserve to be a “Citizen of the United States” for seven years because he did not show that he adhered to the American Revolution by actually being present in America while the Revolution was occurring or shortly thereafter.
So, again there is no basis to anything that you state here or at any other place on the internet about the correct interpretation of a “natural born Citizen.”
From what I have read from the contemporary literature, this is not the case. At the time of the founding of the country, they considered the new country to be a “successor state” and that allegiances to England were erased and became allegiances to the United States when the colonies became states. The same is the case for someone born in a US Territory that later became a state (e.g. Vice President Charles Curtis).
The words “natural born citizen” are thought to be in the Constitution at the urging of a letter from John Jay to George Washington. Jay suggested that none but a natural born citizen be the commander in chief. Are you so birthered-up that you’d even claim that Jay intended that Washington not be eligible to be commander in chief? (There was nothing about “citizen at the time…” in Jay’s letter.)
By your definition, anyone eligible to become commander and chief was in their early twenties or younger.
Washington was born in Virginia and his father died a British subject. Smith was born in South Carolina and whether that was a former British colony or not was irrelevant. It was part of the United States under the Constitution, and Smith and Washington were a natural born citizens.
I of II
Cite the passage from Dr. Ramsay dissertation where he uses the terrm “natural born citizen”.
When Mr. Apuzzo said “Did it ever occur to you….especially in a limited-space appellate brief?”, he was teasing, right? The whole shooting match is with the article. I counted 158 pages, but I could have nodded off.
II of II
From Dr. Ramsay’s 1789 Dissertation:
The following appear to be the only modes of acquiring this distinguishing privilege.
1st. By being parties to the original compact, the declaration of independence.
2d, By taking an oath of fidelity to some one of the United States, agreeably to law.
3d, By tacit consent and acquiescence.
4th. By birth or inheritance,
5th. By adoption.
[skip]
Citizenship is an adventitious character to every adult in the United States.
[skip]
Many persons, hostile to our liberties and independence, might put in their claim to be citizens. All children born in the interval between the peace of Paris, 1763, and the declaration of independence in 1776, within the British posts on our northwestern frontier, now wrongfully held from us, would be citizens. Our East-India trade would be laid open to many adventurers, who have contributed nothing towards the establishment of our liberties: for the natives of this country, born before the revolution, who are now dispersed over the world, might on that principle, fit out ships, make voyages to India, come here and sell their goods, under the character of citizens, from the circumstances of their coming
From Dr. Ramsay’s 1789 petition to Congress:
“that citizenship with the United States is an adventitious character to every person possessing it, who is now thirty years of age ; and that it can, in no case, have been acquired but in one of the following modes:
1st. By birth or inheritance.
2d. By having been a party to the late revolution.
3d. By taking an oath of fidelity to some of the States.
4th. By tacit consent.
5th. By adoption :
and that Mr. Smith cannot have acquired the character of a citizen, in either of these modes”
[skip]
“Our East India trade would be laid open to the numerous natives of this country, who are now dispersed over Europe and the West Indies. If birth and residence within the limits of the United States, before the revolution, conferred the rights of citizenship, persons of the aforesaid description neither done nor hazarded anything for our independence, might trade to the East Indies as citizens of the United States, from the circumstance of their having been born in this country thirty or forty years ago, and, after having glutted our market with extravagant importations, carry the whole profits of their commerce to their present residence in foreign countries
Dr. Ramsay letter to Madison:
Charleston April 4th, 1789
Dear Sir,
Presuming on our ancient acquaintance I take the liberty of soliciting your attention to an affair of mine that is now before your Honorable House. One of the elected federal representatives of this State is, in my opinion, ineligible. This case is in short thus: this gentleman alluded to left Carolina in the year 1770 his parents died about the same time and he was absent from America during the whole of the war and till November, 1783. As in the time of his absence the Revolution took place I contend that in order to his becoming a Citizen of the United States something must have been done previously on his part to show his acquiescence in the new government established without his consent. The lowest test of acquiescence is in my opinion residence in the country. Till he resided under the government of the United States I cannot therefore see how he acquired citizenship. We were all born subjects but you and I were cleared from our allegiance by the restraining act of Parliament passed in December 1775. You and I became citizens by being parties to the Declaration of Independence. By that act a new compact for a new government was form between the then residing and consenting inhabitants of the States. But an absent native neither lost his allegiance by the one nor acquired citizenship by the other. Such continued, subjects while in Europe and under British protection and could become Citizens on their returning and by residence by an oath or by some other move manifesting their acquiescence in the revolution. It is impossible to do justice to the argument in a ____ nor is it necessary to one of your enlightenment and understanding. But as the subject is new I beg your attention to it and if your opinions ____ with mine I shall thank you for supporting my Petition on the subject when the merits of it are discussed before your Honorable House.
I am Sir with great respect and esteem your most obedient and Humble Servant.
David Ramsay
Mario posts a lot but provides little argument… How hard is it to make the argument Mario…
What are the odds that Mario will return with the quotation from Dr. Ramsay’s Dissertation where Ramsay uses the term “natural born citizen”?
And if he cannot find it, what are the odds that he will inform the appeals court that he “inadvertently” mislead them?
On the plus side, he hasn’t mentioned Vattel again.
Mr Apuzzo: here is one more chance for you to publicly deny that your quixotic battle is being financed by white supremacists/right wing extremists.
I just summed up mario’s argument above
Seriously, is there anything Mario isn’t dishonest about. First, Ramsey didn’t define “natural born citizen.” Second, as Gorefan has pointed out, the evidence is clear he wrote his dissertation to influence Congress to overturm his election loss. The argument before Congress was whether native birth alone made Smith a citizen. If it didn’t, then Smith would not have become a citizen until he returned from Europe. Accordingly, Ramsey argued against jus soli and was refuted by Madison himself and obviously rejected by Congress as the only basis of Smith’s early citizenship was his native birth. Congress obviously believed people born in the states were natural born citizens as St. George Tucker told us. Ramsey is clearly a sore loser whose argument was rejected by the father of the Constitution and whose dissertation has never been cited by anyone. Only a birther would think such is relevant authority.
And there go the irony meters….
Amazing the statements one can make when they ignore the fact that there is an ever growing body of law utterly rejecting your arguments….in fact every court and adminstrative body that has addressed the issue has laughed your claims out of the court. No more whining about getting booted on standing. The courts are unanimous in stating the Minor never defined NBC, WKA did, and defined it at as jus soli. But Mario can still pretend to be beligerent and arrogant, and pretend that it is somehow a substitute for actual wisdom. He can also pretend that 30 years of practing DWI and personal injury law somehow makes him a Constitutional scholar of the calibur of Lawrence Tribe. And perhaps that will convince the less informed, or the willfully ignorant. The rest of us just have to chuckle when you get all serious, and try to lecture us.
Dr. Ramsay sent the following letter to Elias Boudinot:
Charleston March 31st 1789
Dear Sir,
Presuming on our ancient friendship I take the liberty of soliciting your attention to an affair of mine that will become before Congress. Those who were opposed to me at a late election urged that I was not a native of South Carolina & that I was a friend to the emancipation of negroes. These pleas were urged to favor the election of another who was absent from America from his 12th to his 26th year that is from 1770 to 1783. I contend that he is constitutionally ineligible as not having been seven years a citizen and have submitted the matter to Congress. By looking into the restraining act of Decr 1775 on which we ground our legal discharge from allegiance you will find that it did not operate on absent natives & that therefore such especially if absent all the time of the war could not be divested of their British allegiance till they returned to their native country. You and I lost our allegiance by that act of Parliament & acquired citizenship by being parties to the Declaration of Independence. I contend that Mr. Smith could neither have lost the one nor acquired the other (especially as his parents died British subjects) until his return here in Novr 1783. You understand the doctrine of allegiance better that I do & the difficulty of divesting a native subject of G. B. of his allegiance. You also know that these who were born before the Union of England & Scotland were not subjects of England till they were naturalized and many other topics that prove citizenship with the U. S. to be an adventitious character to all now 30 years old & only acquirable by their joining in some way or other the U. S. as members of that new political society & by some act of their own. If you think as I do on this matter I will thank you for explaining it to Congress & for placing the merits of the question in a true light.
The enclosed dissertation I sent sometime ago to Mr. Hazard to be printed & offered for sale & a copy to be sent by the printer as from himself to every member of Congress. Mr. Hazard has not answered my letters. I therefore for fear of accidents transmit to you a duplicate requesting that it may now be printed & distributed if not done already.
My petition is now in the hands of Doctor Tucker who will show it to you on asking him. I send you all I have of the papers I printed here on the subject. Mr. Hazard has the whole on both sides. I am with great respect & esteem your friend & very humble sert
David Ramsay
Mr. Boudinot also voted against Dr. Ramsay’s petition.
The relevant date must be no later Apr 30, 1775, not July 4, 1776, otherwise George Washington (1st inauguration on Apr 30, 1789) could not have been a resident of the U.S. for 14 years. NB. that the “grandfather clause” does not refer to age or residence. So, the skirmish at “the rude bridge that arched the flood” should be thought of as the birth of our nation, at least as far as the Constitution is concerned.
Breaking News: Per Atty Apuzzo Oral Arguments in NJ Ballot Access Challenge to Obama Appeal Have Been Changed from Telephonic to In-Person
http://cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/breaking-news-per-atty-apuzzo-oral-arguments-in-nj-ballot-access-challenge-to-obama-changed-from-telephonic-to-in-person/
This will be fun! These 3 Judges are going to tear Mario a new one.
i CAN HARDLY WAIT
i ordered more caramel corn
The judges couldn’t believe that there was a licensed attorney in NJ who was that stupid. They had to see it for themselves.
Perhaps the court wants Mario to be able to cut that sanctions check on the spot?
Yay. A delusional birther bigot freak show.
Bring on the sanctions for this bloated, slithering embarrassment to this country and the legal profession.
lol
i wonder if mario passes the birther in birtherstan test
italy grants citizenship to their paisans if your first U.S. born Italian American relative was born before 1940
Breaking News: Taitz v Astrue: Motion for Default Judgment Denied, Motion for Summary Judgment approved….
Another beautiful Friday smack down.
Double Whammy
2012-05-25 – TAITZ v RUEMMLER – USDCDC APPEAL – ORDER
ORDERED that the motion for summary affirmance be granted.
You can do court proceedings over the phone?
i LOVE FRY-DAYS
That and ‘roasted pig luaus’
Summary Affirmance. even worse a true smackdown. The Court did not even find it necessary to be briefed on the case.
You know, we keep getting fingers pointed at us here in Arizona over this birther mess, but if you ask me, it’s all New Jersey’s fault. Leo Donofrio, Mario Apuzzo, Joseph Farah, Mike Zullo, Jack Cashill– they’re all from New Jersey. Jerome Corsi lives there. That whole Cold Case mess has a distinct scent of New Jersey lingering in the miasma surrounding it. I think I’m going to start a rumor that Ken Bennett was a missionary there. Maybe Orly originally entered the U.S. through New Jersey. I bet Phil Berg was conceived in New Jersey.
Dr. Conspiracy,
I have been trying to post this comment on John Woodman’s blog for two days but for some reason, it does not go through. Hence, I am posting it here.
John Woodman,
(1) Again, the Ramsay-Smith eligibility debate had nothing to do with “natural born Citizen” which Ramsay defined as those born after July 4, 1776 to citizen parents. Rather, it had all to do with whether Smith was a “Citizen of the United States” for seven years so as to meet the requirements of Article I, Section 2. The only thing Congress decided was whether Ramsay was right or wrong on whether Smith was such a 7-year “citizen,” belonging to the class of the “original” “citizens.” Smith did not have to be nor could he be a “natural born Citizen, for he was born before July 4, 1776. Hence, Congress did not decide whether Ramsay’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was right or wrong, but rather only if his claim that Smith did not deserve to be a “Citizen of the United States” for seven years because he did not show that he adhered to the American Revolution by actually being present in America while the Revolution was occurring or shortly thereafter. So, again you lie about our history.
(2) Your St. George Tucker quote does not show that what is stated in the quote was Tucker’s own position. Rather, Tucker only repeated what some “respectable political writer” said. Also, Obots, in quoting Tucker, always left the beginning part of this quote off which is needed to understand that Tucker was only repeating what some other person believed and not giving his personal position on the matter. Only after I took the Obots to task for this deceit have you now started to include the first part of the quote. So, again you lie about our history.
(3) You continued to misrepresent the clear and plain text of Jefferson’s citizenship law of 1779. I cannot believe that you do not understand that “infants” trumps “all white persons.” You fail to understand that “infants” followed the condition of their “white” parents. Hence, there was no need for Jefferson to require that the “infants” also be “white.” Only if an infant was born to “citizen” parents could that infant be a “citizen” of Virginia. This same principle was adopted by the early Congress when they wrote the naturalization acts and is confirmed by the James McClure case (see No. 4 below). So, again you lie about our history.
(4) John Woodman, I take great pleasure in telling you that the James McClure case, which informs on the early naturalization acts, is the smoking gun in our quest to find the meaning of a “natural born Citizen.” The McClure case totally supports my position and totally destroys your thesis that the Founders and Framers used the English common law and a “natural born subject” to define the republic’s new “natural born Citizen.” It is clear from the historical records that the James Madison Administration declared James McClure, who was born in Charleston, South Carolina on April 21, 1785, a “citizen of the United States,” not because he was born in the United States, but rather because his British father naturalized on February 20, 1786, which was months after McClure was born and at which time McClure was also dwelling in the United States. This was the James Madison Administration’s interpretation of the Naturalization Act of 1802 which is consistent with what I have always maintained about the early naturalization acts, i.e., that they also applied to children born in the United States and treated any child born in the United States to alien parents as aliens themselves. Also, it does not matter who wrote the Publius piece. What does matter is what it says and that it explained how the 1802 statute was interpreted. So, again you lie about our history.
What I have noticed about you, John Woodman, is that you cannot state one truth on anything. Everything that you write is your own manipulation of the historical record. It is all lies, pawned off with your self-righteous attitude as some authoritative scholarship.
Fascinating how self delusional Mario appears to be… And projecting…
Speak of the devil, and there he is.
Somebody’s been watching too many TV wrestlers ranting on camera at absent opponents.
Talk about projecting!!!!
I doubt that Mario even understands this. Of course, so far John has been far more accurate than Mario, whose arguments have been consistently rejected by the Courts.
Maddening perhaps…
Mario is no Orly. He was at least on some level, a real attorney for many years, and graduated for a reasonable law school. He’s not monumentously stupid enough to believe the drivel he’s been pushing for the past several years, which just makes it all the more smarmy (way to live up to the stereotype of the sleazeball lawyer!). That is, unless he’s gotten so wrapped up in his own lies that he’s started to believe it.
It’s more of an ego thing I believe… He wants to be right, even when the facts do not support his position. Having lost to a young, relatively inexperienced female attorney who safely could ignore Mario’s musings on two-citizen parents by pointing out that it was totally irrelevant, may not have helped either.
That and being outsmarted on the internet by people who call his bluff and research the issues.
You wouldn’t have these problems in the upper Midwest (and before somebody goes pointing at Andy Martin and Chalice, God Bless.. I am Natural Born Michigander who is temporarily hanging out in Illinois).
Mario… you used the O word that John Woodman asked you to not use on his site. Not only do you not read historical sources correctly, you did not read John’s comment either.
Please cite where Ramsay uses the term natural born citizen. Or did he cite it in the same way Justice Gray did in Wong Kim Ark.
Mario – why did McClure receive a passport from the American Minister in London “confessing him to be a native American citizen”?
Mario
John Woodman just alerted me that for some reason WordPress had flagged your comments as spam. He has fixed it now. I just checked the spam filter at my blog and found one of Doc C’s comments from 5/22 was in there. Sorry Doc. 😆
Well, ain’t that a smart piece of software….
I all fairness, Mario’s worthless arguments are to Law what Spam is to Meat.
This is hilarious. The Obots who call us “Birthers” do not want us calling them Obots.
Mr. Apuzzo: What would you like to be called, as a group?
I am not an “Obot,” whatever that is, and folks who seek to conflate me and others who post here as supporters of President Obama are simply wrong. I did not vote for him in 2008 and will not in 2012.
Gorefan,
You asked: “Cite the passage from Dr. Ramsay dissertation where he uses the term “natural born citizen.”
The unamended Constitution, which was adopted in 1787, includes only two types of “citizens,” the “natural born Citizen” and the “Citizen of the United States.” Ramsay, in 1789, gave us his list of how citizenship is obtained.
Ramsay defined naturalized citizens as follows: he informed that birthright citizenship for those born after July 4, 1776 was reserved only for the children of the citizens.
Since the Constitution called these citizens the “natural born Citizens,” Ramsay therefore defined the “natural born Citizen” in this manner. There was no other “citizen” which Ramsay could have defined other than the “natural born Citizen” when he gave this definition of birthright citizenship. Does not common sense tell you that in Ramsay giving us his exhaustive list, he defined both a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States?”
St. George Tucker also did not use the clause “natural born Citizen” when he defined birthright citizenship. He defined birthright citizenship as a child born to citizen parents. This is the same thing that Ramsay said. There can also be no doubt that he defined a “natural born citizen,” for only that type of citizen who was born after the adoption of the Constitution was eligible to be President.
This shows that it really did not matter what title the Founders and Framers gave to birthright citizenship. What is important is how they defined it. And that definition always contained the requirement for birth to citizen parents. Hence, the whole argument that Vattel did not use the word “natural born Citizen” when he wrote in French, “Le naturels, ou indigenes,” is nothing more than a red herring. The Founders and Framers knew that how Vattel defined “Le naturels, ou indigenes” in their book was a “natural born Citizen.”
And by the way, are you going to tell the American people and the courts that you and your partners have “inadvertently” mislead them by telling them that Wong Kim Ark held that Wong was a “natural born Citizen” when the term “natural born Citizen” does not appear anywhere in the holding of the Court? I see that you caught on to your own contradiction and now try to cover yourself by joking that Ramsay cited “natural born Citizen” “the same way Justice Gray did in Wong Kim Ark.
So, you’ve taken some time off from ambulance chasing, and stopped by to visit. How’s torts? What’s new in the field of drunk drivers?
“The Obots who call us “Birthers” do not want us calling them Obots.”
You can call me anything you want, except “hey you.”
– “Call me a taxi.”
– “OK. You’re a taxi.”
Won any court cases on that line of thinking, Mario?
The cae of Wong Kim Ark deals with the definition of natural born citizen. The authors understood that by ruling as they did Mr. Wong was eligible to be President. I believe it is covered in the briefs. I’ll defer to the lawyers who post here.
From John Woodman: “Furthermore, even Justice Fuller in the dissent in the case recognized that the majority had found Wong Kim Ark to be a natural born citizen and therefore eligible to be President.”
http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/04/the-us-supreme-court-established-a-binding-precedent-as-to-who-is-a-natural-born-citizen-in-united-states-v-wong-kim-ark/
One might take your complaint seriously if you didn’t do exactly what you accuse others of doing in re Vattel.
For the record, I ask you again to deny that your legal battle is being funded by extreme right-wing organizations.
I think it is quite clear that Mario who’s prompt to respond to any real or imaginary slight will NOT deny — for the umpteenth time — that he is a paid mouthpiece for some extreme right-wing organization.
I think we have to recognize that Mario is like a mob attorney and treat him with the same respect.
Can there technically be any French (or German or Australian or Belgian) “Obots”? I don’t think so.
Even the dissenting Judge understood that Wong Kim Ark was ruled to be a natural born citizen. But I am sure that he did read the ruling. You on the other hand continue to suffer from common reading problems. Nothing uncommon really but quite funny and of course, the courts have rejected your position.
Since the Court observed that there natural-born and natural-ized citizens combined with the fact that WKA could not be natural-ized under US Statute, the fact that he was ruled a citizen leads to a simple and inevitable conclusion.
Glad to be of held my dear Mario.
Any time soon now… But first he will have to deal with the oral arguments in the NJ appeal. I am sure that the Judges will be fascinated by his ‘arguments’. I do urge Mario to bring his check book though.
I beg to disagree. I don;’t think there is any delusion (or maybe just a smidgen) or stupidity at work here. Marion is/was a professional; ambulance chaser who got offered as fat brief by some extreme right-wing people to propagandize their views, just like Wallace Shawn in a famous episode of MURPHY BROWN (except that Shawn eventually breaks down on camera, unable to continue mouthing the vile things he is expected to say).
You wouldn’t accuse Al Capone or John Gotti’s lawyers of being delusional or incompetent, even when they deny the obvious and put forth barely defensible theories about their clients’ activities? The same applies to Mario: he is doing as repulsive job for which I suspect he is handsomely paid a monthly retainer, which beats finding new ambulances to chase.
“What I have noticed about you, John Woodman, is that you cannot state one truth on anything. Everything that you write is your own manipulation of the historical record.”
Perfect projection and immaculate irony from Apoplectic Apuzzo.
Mario: Will you vote for Romney/Rubio or will you go with Obama/Biden on the principle that one citizen parent is better than none?
So if Mario’s pre-school says “Parents must pick up their children by 5 PM” he means BOTH parents, every single day. Lord help the single parent or even the 2 parent famiy where one has a late meeting because when Mario sees “parents” it means both, never one or more.
It’s a tough choice for Mario. Would he vote for someone whose father was born in another country, purportedly to US citizens, whose grandfather and great-grandfather were bigamists, and who has never shown his BC, or will he stay home?
Mit Romney’s parents were both U.S. citizens when he was born.
I have not seen that Marco Rubio is the Republican candidate for Vice President. I have already stated that Rubio is not a “natural born Citizen,” for while he was born in the U.S., he was not born to two U.S. citizen parents.
Obama’s father was not a U.S. citizen when Obama was born. According to the Founders and Framers, early Congress, and many other historical sources which I have cited in my briefs and in my other writings, that fact unquestionably disqualifies him from being an Article II “natural born Citizen” and eligible for President. There has never been an amendment of that rule, including by the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark.
Prove it.
He is the most likely choice, since Romney cannot win without Florida nor without a showing among Hispanics similar to GWB’s, and Rubio is his best shot at that. So, hypothetically, Romney/Rubio vs Obama/Biden, who do you pick? A forthright, honest person answers a simple question.
By the way Mario, here is the 12th amendment: “The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.
The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed:
Note that it says “SHALL be President”, not “might be President” Or “if the Great Apuzzo approves”. Congress is the final authroity and they already spoke on Obama. On Rubio, who knows????
Mario cannot prove US citizenship for the parents of any President or candidate, with the possible exception of George W Bush and John Quincy Adams. Where are birth certificates or passports for Lincoln’s parents or Truman’s or Reagan’s?
In Hollywood, they called Reagan “Dutch”. Therefore, I can only conclude he was born in Holland. Prove different (and no a birth certificate issued 30 years later is not proof, not even close).
I suppose you might get away with a remark like that on your blog, but you could hardly expect anyone here to be that poorly informed. If Obama is “unquestionably” disqualified, then why isn’t your case, Purpura v. Obama, in the win column for the birthers instead of a loss on appeal. Why have at least 4 other judges in similar cases questioned, and decided that the ideas you put forward are “without legal merit?”
If Obama is “unquestionably” disqualified, then why did one of the first important writers on the Constitution, jurist and historian William Rawle say:
If Wong Kim Ark does not inform us, then why did the US Government’s own appellate brief arguing that Ark was not a citizen at all describe the district court ruling as:
Certainly the US Government understood the implications of losing the Wong (which they lost). Their brief said:
“Citizenship by birth” is the important qualification, not parentage.
So please don’t insult me and the others here by trying to pass off obviously false premises. The fact is that you are arguing a fringe view, widely rejected by the legal community.
Once again, Mr. Apuzzo states that the Supreme Court did not change the two citizen parent ule in the cse of Wong Kim Ark.
I agree that whatever rule was in effect did not change as a result of that case, but the case is replete with references to Mr. Wong’s eligibility to be President even though it is quite clear that neither of his parents were citizens. Thereafter, every court which has confronted the question, including courts in which Mr. Apuzzo was present, has read the case to say that one simply needs to be born here to be President.
Interesting use of the word “unquestionably.”
And I concur with Misha’s demand for proof of Gov. Romney’s citizenship, even though I intend to vote for him. The failure of Mr. Apuzzo to demand documentation from white candidates given the furor Mr. Apuzzo and his friends have unleashed about President Obama is racism, plain and simple. Unquestionably.
Both here and at the Fogbow, it’s been suggested that the move from a telephonic hearing to one in open court is a bad sign for the Appellants and Apuzzo in particular.
Would one of the attorneys please flesh this idea out a bit so we non-attorneys understand why this would be the case?
Thanks!
By saying the President is unquestionably disqualified, Apuzzo clearly means that *if* you don’t question his premise, then President Obama is disqualified. If you question it, sure of course, then yeah, the President’s qualified, but Apuzzo just said it’s unquestionable, which means don’t bother trying to question it, because you can’t, because he said so.
Just because the judges are rude and can’t take a hint, that doesn’t mean Apuzzo’s premise is actually questionable. Just ask him. He’ll tell you. Unquestionably, he will tell you.
I have uninformed speculation, but I’ll keep it to myself. If Mr. Apuzzo is reading this, perhaps he knows something he can share, or speculate from a professional standpoint.
Maybe Kerchner finally got tired of him bogarting the anytime minutes off his Jitterbug.
So according to you, Dr. Ramsay’s exhaustive list defines “natural born Citizen” and ” Citizen of the United States” .
:Both his dissertation and petition contain the same list of modes for acquiriing citzenship.
He describes citizenship by “birth or inheritance” in the dissertation:
“None can claim citizenship as a birth-right, but such as have been born since the declaration of independence, for this obvious reason: no man can be born a citizen of a state or government, which did not exist at the time of his birth. Citizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken part in the late revolution: but this is confined exclusively to the children of those who were themselves citizens. Those who died before the revolution, could leave no political character to their children, but that of subjects, which they themselves possessed. If the had lived, no one can be certain whether they would have adhered to the king or to congress. Their children, therefore, may claim by inheritance the rights of British subjects, but not of American citizens.”
He describes citzenship by “birth or inheritance” in the case of William L, Smith:
“Mr. Smith cannot have acquired the character of a citizen, in either of these modes, seven years ago. He cannot be a citizen by birth or inheritance, for he was born in 1758, in South Carolina, while a British colony; and his parents were both dead many years before the declaration of independence; his birthright and inheritance can, therefore, be no other than that of a British subject; for no man can be born a citizen of a Government which did not exist at the time of his being born; nor can parents leave to their children any other political character than that which they themselves possessed.”
If by “birth or inheritance” is Dr. Ramsay’s definition of natural born citzen, that definition was explicitly rejected by James Madison, Thomas Fitzsimmons, George Clymer, Daniel Carroll, Nicholas Gilman and 31 other members of Congress.
You would not make a good Birther.
Has anyone seen the defendant’s and AG’s briefs.
Not only is pretty much everything you say a lie, at this point you are pathological. Why would you say the anonymous letter represented to position of the Madison administration when you have no such evidence. Do you think no one will notice you are lying through your teeth. Monroe’s letter only certified his place of birth and said nothing else. The clear implication to any honest persons would thuis be that is the only relevant issue. It is astounding you would claim they thought he was naturalized without evidence. But you can’t seem to help to lie.
The same pretty much goes with the rest of your post. You repeat the same things and can never defend the criticism of them. You just go repeating the same lies. Your interpretation of Jefferson’s statute has been debunked so many time with only the most feeble defense by you, but you keep on saying it. You are lying about St. George Tucker as he clearly approved the the definiton of natural born citizen in the context he cited it and also said the president had to be a native born citizen in an addition of Blackstone where he used native and alien throughout his work in the same sense in England and America. The lies just go on and on.
However, your interpretation of Wong Kim Ark at this point is delusional. When you are shown unambiguous quotes from WKA that you can in no way refute, you simply ignore them and pretend they doen’t count or exist. When you are told it is irrelevant whether Gray called WKA natural born as he clearly defined what a natural born citzien was and it clearly was not dicta. You never respond to this as you simply don’t understand these concepts. Of course, the court did say he was natural born as it said natural born meant “born in the allegaince” and spend many pages explaining that persons such as WKA were born in the allegiance. Of course, we see no court has any trouble reading these plain words of the supreme court. Pretending such authority does not exist is not only dishonest, but could be sanctionable. What are you going to do when such plain statements of the Supreme court refuting everything you say are read to you in court? Lie some more?
“[t]he Constitution of the United States, as originally adopted, uses the words ‘citizen of the United States,’ and ‘natural-born citizen of the United States'” and that “[t]he Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words…in this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the constitution….'[t]he interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, “a natural-born citizen.” It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
“The term “citizen,” as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term “subject” in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government.”
“it is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
“And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King’s obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary. . . . Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives, and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.”
I can go on and on if you would like. If you can’t admit these statements make clear that natural born subject and citizen mean the same thing, our common law is the same as England and your interpretation of naturalization statutes is wrong, there really is something wrong with you.
\
I haven’t, but would sure like to!
Excellent point
Hey, Mario: Who’s on first?
Yep… As was the two citizen parent rejected in US v Wong Kim Ark, where it was explicitly raised by the Government. Much of the same arguments Mario is raising were raised and rejected by the Court in US v Wong Kim Ark.
Mario is re-litigating US v Wong Kim Ark, a solid precedent and it should not come as much of a surprise that Courts have been rejecting his arguments in for instance Ankeny v Daniels or related findings/rulings.
I am sure he will be asked to explain himself during the oral arguments, which he will be attending in person per request of the court, as far as I understand. Good luck Mario. Any comments/predictions?
Nolu Chan has shown that the issue before the Court was the ruling that the lower court had found Wong Kim Ark to be a natural-born citizen
Undeniable… Contrary to Mario’s ‘suggestions’, both the Government in their briefs and the dissenting Judge all understood that the Court had ruled that Wong Kim Ark was a natural-born citizen.
Now what?
Wong Kim Ark, On the Briefs Re Natural Born Citizen
nbc,
What twisted logic you present.
Wong just needed to be a “citizen” not to get deported.
But the district court found that he was a “natural born citizen.”
On appeal Collins said that the district court erred in finding Wong to be a “natural born citizen.”
The Wong dissent said that Wong should not be declared to be a “natural born citizen” because it would not have been fair to the children born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who were under the majority’s explanation only naturalized citizens “at birth” under an act of Congress, not “natural born citizens,” and not eligible to be President.
Because Wong needed to be just a “citizen,” and despite the arguments of Collins and the dissent, the Supreme Court was free to find that he was just a “citizen,” and not like the district court did, that he was also a “natural born citizen.” And that is exactly what it did, holding Wong to be under the Fourteenth Amendment a “citizen” from the moment of birth
That Collins and the dissent said the district court erred in finding Wong to be a “natural born citizen” does not through magic convert the Court’s holding that he was a “citizen” into one that he was a “natural born Citizen.”
I see I’ve missed most of the Mario Apuzzo party over here.
Over at my blog I commented this morning on the use of “Obot” versus the use of “birther.” “Birther” is a fairly descriptive and factual term: It’s someone who is concerned about the birth of our current President or future Presidential candidates.
“Obot” carries with it two implied meanings: 1) A supporter of the current President, and 2) one who acts as a “robot,” that is, automatically, according to the preconceived agenda, without regard for the truth, etc.
One term is fairly factual and descriptive, even if it may be used with a derogatory tone. The other implies a particular political orientation and allegiance, and to a certain degree implies motives on the part of the person labeled that may well not exist.
In my own instance, as people who visit my blog well know, I’m not a supporter of Mr. Obama, but I am a supporter of the truth and our history, Constitution and laws. Personally speaking, I am somewhat tired of being labeled an “Obot.” I can’t keep Mr. Apuzzo from labeling me whatever he wants at his own blog, but he ought to respect my wishes as mine. In spite of the fact that Mario has been asked politely to knock of the defamatory labeling (and I recognized in this that there are others who may in fact be Obama supporters who do not appreciate being described as “robots”), he seems almost unable to create a post that does not contain the word “Obot” in it.
Recently I set a filter which I intended to put such posts into moderation. Instead it put them into “spam,” and they did not appear. I’ve changed this now. Mr. Apuzzo’s posts that do not contain the derogatory term will appear immediately. Those that do, will be moderated.
Scientist and nbc,
Scientist: So if Mario’s pre-school says “Parents must pick up their children by 5 PM” he means BOTH parents, every single day. Lord help the single parent or even the 2 parent family where one has a late meeting because when Mario sees “parents” it means both, never one or more.” Of course, nbc, took this bait hook, line, and sinker.
I am surprised at you, Scientist, being a scientist, that you would put forth such bad logic.
In your school example, of course, the school only needs one parent to pick up the child. The one parent will do the required job, i.e., picking up the child, just nicely.
But with the “natural born Citizen” clause, which is defined as a child born in the country to citizen parents, two U.S. citizen parents are needed to do the job. The reason both are needed is so that the child is born with sole allegiance, loyalty, and attachment to the United States which is what the Founders and Framers expected of future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military. In other words, unlike the school pick-up situation, one U.S. citizen parent will not get the job done. And no U.S. citizen parents is that much worst.
This, along with John Woodman’s four-legged creatures and a Frenchman is a European, is another fail in Obot logic.
The courts clearly indicated that there were, under our Constitution only two kinds of citizens: Natural-born and Natural-ized.
The Court approved of the lower court ruling, which you accept as admitting that Wong Kim Ark was natural born, and the dissenting Judge lamented that now Wong Kim Ark could run for the office of the President.
Understanding the ruling does require one to read and understand its implications my friend. Luckily the Judge in Ankeny v Daniels was able to understand the relevance of US v Wong Kim Ark and reject, once again, your position, as did the dissenting Judge when admitting that under US v Wong Kim Ark, Wong Kim Ark was in fact a natural-born citizen. While he disapproved of the findings, he did understand its relevance.
What tangled web we weave…
I guess you have nothing to rebut other than to assert bad logic. When in fact, the observation is quite accurate.
Poor Mario, logic reason, legal precedents, scholarly works, all continue to disagree with his position. While most of his claims were already argued in US v Wong Kim Ark, they were also solidly rejected.
Begging the question once again. Logic is not your strongest suit now is it? So what is? Perhaps if you were to focus on that, you may actually succeed in convincing the Courts?
Until then, the logic and reason, or lack thereof, in your arguments, combined with your innovative interpretations of legal precedents, will continue to haunt your failures.
Note that even Vattel accepts that who is a citizen or not is something Municipal law addresses, and he observes that in England for example, common-law does not agree with Vattel’s interpretation. But even Vattel accepts that a child when gaining the age of majority gets to determine which citizenship to continue.
Mario has been inhaling Orly’s nitrous oxide. Ignore him.
And let’s not forget Vattel’s position
If President Obama would have left the United States with his father, and resided in Kenya with him, and failed to return to the United States when reaching the age of majority there could perhaps been a case made based on international law, that he had rejected his birthright citizenship.
Of course, we know that under today’s precedent, it requires more than this for someone to abandon his birthright citizenship, when born a natural-born/native born citizen.
It is somewhat foolish to deny that the United States gets to decide who are its citizens just because some people believe there exists a better ‘international law’ concept.
ballantine:
You always tell us how you, in citing and quoting English common law, “can go on and on if you would like.”
But you fail to understand that in a soccer game, it does not matter how many home runs you hit.
Convincing people that his client was not blind drunk, when said client ran a red light, and smashed into another car. Casting doubt on any tests for alcohol concentration. Perfecting the definition of contributory negligence. Playing on jurors’ sympathies.
Also, determining who entered the intersection first.
No, but the fact that the Court affirmed the lower court’s decision does.
It must be so sad to believe yourself so right, but yet lose so badly and so consistently.
nbc,
I am not just rearguing Wong Kim Ark. I have presented a great deal of other evidence which was not included by the Government or the dissent. One example is that they failed to argue that the meaning of a “natural born Citizen” is found right in the early naturalizaiton acts which abrogated the English common law.
Of course, the Fourteenth Amendment trumps any statutes. But that amendment only provides for the status of a ‘citizen,” not a “natural born Citizen.”
Of course, a non-substantive response that cannot refute the clear, unambiguous authority I cited stating you are wrong. Notice that you never even try to refute my citations as they are as clear as can be. Do you not realize you can lose your law license for misstating authority in a court filing? Can you dispute any authority I cited was wrong? No. Can you cite any subsequent Supreme Court case saying it was wrong? No. Can you cite any modern court saying my interpretation is wrong? No. Accordingly, you are simply lying. How many courts have to laugh at you before you realize you are wrong. For rationale people, that point has already occurred. For the delusional, they won’t stop until they are disbarred.
Have you really not read the debates on the 14th Amendment Congress at this point and read that they were just restating the Englisn common law? Are you being ignorant on purpose? If you can’t admit that Wong Kim Ark said the 14th Amendment and the NBC clause meant the same thing, you are just an idiot as has been pointed out over and over and over and over. And, of course, you never even try to refute the quotes from WKA I cite that make such point clear as even you cannot re-write such language to support your delusional interpretation. Seriously, it is just a matter of time before someone files an ethical complaint against you for your misinterpretation of law. If you dispute this, please explain any of the quotes above from WKA that you never have responded to because you can’t. Either you can explain such quotes or you are lying by stating something else is the law. Which is it?
No such evidence is found there, other than a flawed reading and understanding.
Mario, The quote above indicates that you accept the ruling of Wong Kim Ark, and are attempting to convince a court, presumably the Supreme Court, that it was wrongly decided. That is a bona fide position one can take in a courtroom, however, when one does that one has to make clear in one’s own pleadings what the settled law is, what the precedents are, and give a very good reason for changing the law.
It can be done. I’ve done it a few times. But, the way to go about it is to state, from the beginning what controlling precedent is, and that one is attempting to change the law. You have not done that in any of your pleadings (that I’ve read). So you come off to the courts as an idiot. Who will be subject to sanctions. For attempting to mislead the Courts as to what the settled law is.
On the other hand, it is more likely that you are merely deluded and mis-spoke in the above quote.
ROTFL, it shows two paths to citizenship: Birth on Soil (aka natural born) and acquisition afterwards (natural ized)
You really should try to comprehend these distinctions before you make such foolish comments.
And of course, the Court in your own case, fully rejected your position.
and
We thank you for allowing the Court to reaffirm this well understood principle
And rejected Vattel…
Somehow all these judges, including the dissenting Judge in US v Wong Kim Ark all come to the same conclusion that Wong Kim Ark affirmed the lower case finding that, according to the Government’s own brief, Wong Kim Ark was a natural born citizen. Anyone who has followed the arguments and the rulings therein would naturally come to the same discussion.
But it does help to actually read AND comprehend these papers.
Indeed it does… Plus he does appear to have accepted that the lower court found Wong Kim Ark to be natural born
Yes, but also found that under the ruling Wong Kim Ark would be able to run for office of the President.
Interesting blinders…
Mario perhaps loves this kind of punishment because deep down he has convinced himself that he must have been right. The alternative is just unthinkable perhaps? In light of Mario’s shining successes however, the alternative does not appear so unlikely after all. But denial and anger are the first few steps towards acceptance.
And miss out on all the fun. Mario is such a doll… I do not particularly take pleasure in taking candy from infants but in Mario’s case, the rewards are just too sweet.
The courts have repeatedly held that there are only two ways to acquire citizenship in the US, by birth or naturalization. There is no other category created by 14th Amendment. Accordingly, all the courts that have ruled on it disagreed with the “two parent” theory you propose.
An example:
“There is no arguable legal basis for the proposition that both parents of the President must have been born on U.S. soil. This assertion is as frivolous as the multitude of alleged allegations outlined above.”
Hon. Arthur M. Schack, S.C.
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/other-courts/2012/2012-ny-slip-op-50614-u.html
We got Strunk to thank for this… A round of hands for Strunk, Apuzzo/Purpura, Ankeny and others who have solidified the findings of US v Wong Kim Ark in legal precedent…
And frivolous… I can’t wait for the NJ Appeal’s Court to grill Mario in person…
Any prediction Mario? Are you bringing your check book?
Don’t you just love John Woodman. He allows one to called him an “anti-birther.” So the word “birther” can be used on his blog. But he will not permit one to call him a “Botox.” Now is that not just grand.
Hey, John, now you know what happens when you censor free and fair speech.
Has Mario addressed the observation by Dr C that
Fascinating how poor reading skills Mario appears to have.
You become Mario’s blog?…
But requesting you to not use Obot hardly constitutes censorship and of course, you should know by now that free speech is not guaranteed when contributing to blogs like John’s.
John however has provided you with far more courtesy and access than you have provided to others.
But I do understand why you have to attack John indirectly as he has, as many others before him, shown you to be without any ‘clothes’.
In fact, John has given you all the opportunity to show your arguments to be without any merits. As to your reading skills, I am not sure what explains your somewhat consistent inability to read and comprehend rulings and statutes but I hope that with the help of others, you can at least come to see your follies.
Of course, it is just icing on the cake to have judges continue to agree with people like John and reject Mario’s arguments as ‘frivolous’ or lacking in merit.
I can’t wait for the oral proceedings in New Jersey… Next week? What do you think Mario were the reasons for the Court to invite you inside their courtroom?
For those who do not follow John’s blog, you should know the following: John has expressed that
Mario may have not fully comprehended the meaning of this statement when calling ‘censorship and free speech’…
Me, I was thinking about moderating any comment with the word “Alinsky” in it.
I said: “But the district court found that he [Wong Kim Ark] was a ‘natural born citizen.’” This is not correct. I knew that the district court never even mentioned the clause “natural born citizen,” but I inadvertently said what I said. Then when I saw nbc trying to get some mileage out of my mistatement, I remembered that the district court never even mentioned the clause
So, the district court found that Wong was a “citizen.” It never even used the clause “natural born citizen.”
On appeal Collins erroneously argued that the district court erred in finding Wong to be a “natural born citizen.” Collins stated the question presented in his brief thus: “The question presented by this appeal may be thus stated: Is a person born within the United States of alien parents domiciled therein a citizen thereof by the fact of his birth? The appellant maintains the negative, and in that behalf assigns as error the ruling of the district court that the respondent is a natural-born citizen.”
The district court did not find that Wong was a “natural born citizen.” It only held that he was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.
Too bad, nbc.
An interesting aside is that when I first started debating birthers in 2008, I used the screen name “Botox.”
And yet everyone involved understood the extent of its ruling as the lower court found that
But, not totally unexpected, the actual ruling appears to be at odds with Mario’s understanding
Then it explains how birth on soil creates ‘citizenship’
The Judge also understood that there are but two sources of citizenship
And the Court totally rejected the Vattel principle, although perhaps being more ‘reasonable’ as lacking in judicial authority.
It helps understanding how the terms citizenship and its two components birth on soil (natural bron) and statute (natural-ized) combine and how this affects the argument.
Fascinating how poor reading skills Mario appears to have.
I guess the New Jersey Attorney General also has poor reading skills.
Only if one does not understand the foundation and reason that led the Court to this conclusion Mario. And of course, ignoring the position of the dissenting Judge and the government brief, which you insist is suddenly erroneous…
You fail to comprehend the arguments presented, and the logic of the ruling when claiming that the Court did not find the Wong Kim Ark to be natural born. By virtue of the logic presented, there is no other conclusion but that by finding WKA to be a citizen, and the fact that he could not become a naturalized citizen, that he was therefor a citizen by birth, born on soil under the jurisdiction of our nation, making him by the common law of England, and the Common Law of the early republic, a natural born citizen.
It’s so simple… Even the courts today comprehend this… And thus have rejected your position with such terms as frivolous or without merit.
Tough isn’t it when reality is so at odds with your deeply held beliefs?
The two are not exclusive no. Are you now rejecting Dr C’s well informed observations because you believe someone else made a similar mistake?
Weird…
Nonsense. Children grow up attached to all kinds of things that their parents were not attached to and often feel no attachment for things their parents care deeply about. My mother adored Italian opera; I can’t stand it. My father was a professional boxer and I couldn’t imagine myself beating somebody to a pulp or being beaten to a pulp.
Attachments, loyalty and allegiance are fleeting my friend. People get married promising to love honor and obey until death. Most of them actually mean it at the time, but half the marriages end in divorce. For $100,000 I could get many people to betray things they claim to love. Make it $100,000,000 and traitors would be lining up around the block.
As for the Founders, Framers, blah, blah, blah, spare me. Their opinions don’t support you and even if they did, they are just opinions, to be considered, yes, but they can never be binding on us. Mind you, here is an opinion from a Founder that I find very wise:
“The generations of men may be considered as bodies or corporations. Each generation has the usufruct of the earth during the period of its continuance. When it ceases to exist, the usufruct passes on to the succeeding generation free and unencumbered and so on successively from one generation to another forever. We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country”- Thomas Jefferson, 1813
The Founders opinions are NOT binding on us and they CANNOT select leaders for our time.
ballantine,
I think you are losing it, threatening me with ethical complaints and losing my law license for my well-documented and historically correct position on the meaning of an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
Maybe you need a rest.
I take that as an endorsement of Obama/Biden over Romney/Rubio.
Retired Lawyer,
I did not say that Wong Kim Ark was wrongly decided. Rather, I have maintained that it did not hold that Wong was a “natural born Citizen,” but rather just a “citizen” from the moment of birth under the Fourteenth Amendment.
ROTFL… Begging the question again. And yet, the arguments have been referred to in Court as lacking in merit or frivolous (Strunk).
Sorry Mario for not taking you too seriously. But I am relying on the Court next week to properly reward you for how ‘well’ you ‘documented’ your ‘position’…
Care to venture a guess as to why they invited you into their court room?
And no Ballantine did not threaten you. There you go again with your problematic reading comprehension. What he said is:
Read before you leap…
Mario, since you are here.
Is your posiition that we have all been wrong about the definition of Natural Born Citizen for the last 100 years or more?
Because we all grew up knowing that anyone born in the U.S. is a natural born citizen- have all Americans just been wrong?
Or are you arguing that what I was taught by my conservative civics teacher was an anomaly?
For reference, the District Court’s decision is available here.
The Court cited approvingly the decision in Lynch v. Clarke which very specifically called Lynch a natural born citizen (of alien parents). So the Court did use the phrase (page 388) albeit in the context of the words of another court.
The District Court’s decision was largely based on a previous decision by the Circuit Court in Re: Look Tin Sing, where the phrase also appears.
I would point out that Collins argued the case before the District Court as well as writing for the appeal. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they “erroneously argued.” That’s just your opinion.
Which the Court found to be similar as under the common law, natural born meant born on soil subject to jurisdiction and since WKA was both born on soil and subject to our jurisdiction the conclusion is inescapable.
Good luck making this distinction to the judges next week.
Nbc,
You said: ROTFL, it [the Fourteenth Amendment] shows two paths to citizenship: Birth on Soil (aka natural born) and acquisition afterwards (naturalized).
Begging the question, aren’t we. I guess logic was not your forte.
Yep, and given the context, a rather poor one as well IMHO. Remember that Collins argued that in order to be natural born citizen, one has to be born on soil to two us citizen parents and depended on descent rather than location of birth.
Linda,
You provided the following quote to prove some point:
“There is no arguable legal basis for the proposition that both parents of the President must have been born on U.S. soil. This assertion is as frivolous as the multitude of alleged allegations outlined above.”
Hon. Arthur M. Schack, S.C.
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/other-courts/2012/2012-ny-slip-op-50614-u.html
You are a bit behind the learning curve. May I suggest you catch up.
I told you that you should have read and comprehended the ruling before exposing your lack of understanding publicly.
Sorry Mario, if you insist on making yourself look foolish in public, by all means, eat your heart out. I would be the last one to prevent you from exercising your right to do so.
So, Mario where is this legal [statute]. This would be expected you being a lawyer and all.
“The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed:”
US Constitution. 12th Amendment
I told you that you should have read and comprehended the ruling before exposing your lack of understanding publicly.
Sorry Mario, if you insist on making yourself look foolish in public, by all means, eat your heart out. I would be the last one to prevent you from exercising your right to do so.
For those who do want to educate themselves on this topic, let me outline broadly the argument followed by the court
Citing Minor v Happersett and other precedents it concludes
Pursuing the proper definition of the term natural-born, the court observes
Rejecting Mario’s proposition
Observing that the 14th is just declarative
Concluding
Sigh…
Again an ad hominem in order to avoid what I see as the fact that the Courts have found Mario’s principles to be lacking in merit and even frivolous.
Then again, arguing against the consistent findings by Judges, based on US v WKA, may be too hard. We can expect some fun perhaps during the oral examination of Mario’s ‘arguments’…
Haven’t you been paying attention? It’s in Mario’s briefs.
Scientist,
The English common law could never be binding on the Founders and Framers. It could be considered, but it could never be binding on them. Here is an opinion from a Founder that is quite instructive:
“The generations of men may be considered as bodies or corporations. Each generation has the usufruct of the earth during the period of its continuance. When it ceases to exist, the usufruct passes on to the succeeding generation free and unencumbered and so on successively from one generation to another forever. We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country”- Thomas Jefferson, 1813
The English common law is not binding on us and it CANNOT select leaders for our time.
Why provide the link? Yes, there have been legal arguments that state both parents must be born in America, the link provided shows arguments that demonstrate that born parents don’t have to be.
Obama is the sixth president who parents were not born on American soil. The irony of the ruling is that it was harsh. Let us just say that Linda is correct.
Nor can Vattel. It is the VOTERS who choose. They CHOSE Obama in 2008 and that is the end of the story. They may CHOOSE him again in 2012 or not. But neither Vattel nor the English common law nor the Founders have a say.
When one takes a break from all this you tend to lose track. However, thankfully Mario did provide some information on that.
It is not a threat from me, as I am not litigating this. However, since your submission is completely dishonest, don’t whine when the court determines to sanction you. We know you already have experienced begging the 3rd Circuit not to sanction you. I suggest you fine tune those arguments. Perhaps this could be a new specialty for you. Note that when I cite unambiguous authority from the Supreme court saying you are wrong you never make a response, as you cannot. Any attorney has a duty to cite authority contrary from his position. To not point out suchclear authority from the Supreme Court is unehtical. But since you think you are so smart, please tell us why the supreme court statements I cited above don’t matter and don’t require you to recite to the court. Rather you cite a sore loser whose opinion was rejected by Madison and Congress. You cite an anonymous letter that you have no evidence anyone ever agreed to. You cite cases that had nothing to do with citizeneship. When you are sanctioned, don’t say we didn’t warn you.
By the time the Constitution was ratified all 13 states had adopted the English Common law, either by constitution, statute or through judicial fiat.
The sense in which the English Common law is not binding is that after adopting it, we can change it. However, as the courts have pointed out, birth in the country is sufficient to make a natural born citizen, and that rule was never altered. [Temporary exception for the slaves.]
I find it ironic that you would challenge the efficacy of the English Common Law while at the same trying to supplant it with another, a book by the Prussian guy, Vattel.
It is also ironic when you say that the English Common law cannot select leaders for our time, because apparently you don’t want the voters selecting them either.
Confused again?…
The question is not if it is binding but rather what the definition of terms left undefined in the Constitution is. The courts have found consistently that such meanings should be found in common law and the court in US v WKA showed that the common law meaning was birth on soil with minor exceptions.
If Mario had read and understood the briefs filed by the Government, he would have known that they too tried this somewhat foolish argument, ignoring the limited application of common law here.
Reading comprehension…
Well, yes but… You know Mario… Plus it is not relevant that there may not exist a federal common law, just that terms undefined in the Constitution are to be found in common law at the time the constitution was written. And as the Court in WKA showed, the meaning was clear and simple: birth on soil, just like the english common law…
Did he not come close when the Court ruled that his appeal had been frivolous? Perhaps the NJ Court has taken judicial notice of Mario’s past behavior and are inviting him into their court room to explore the extent of this?
I am not a betting person but I have this strong suspicion that the Court has its reasons to suddenly invite Mario inside its courtroom.
sfjeff,
Since “natural born Citizen” is only relevant to running for President and Vice President, for the last 100 years, we have had to talk about what is a “citizen,” not what is a “natural born Citizen.” As Minor explained, it has never been doubted what a “natural born Citizen” is. The doubts have arisen regarding what is a “citizen,” which Minor even told us was not necessary for it to decide. We know that Wong did later on answer that open question.
The problem occurred when the definition of a “natural born Citizen” became buried in history due to non-use and then because of that non-use some conflating a “citizen” with a “natural born Citizen.”
The Fourteenth Amendment brought some closure to the question of which people born in the United States are to be considered “citizens” from the moment of birth. I say some closure because it introduced some doubts by resorting to the vague “subject to the jurisdiction” clause.
That is not what Minor really said now is it Mario. So why pretend otherwise?
Of course, at best dicta and at worst contradicting Mario’s suggestion that Minor conclusively defined the term natural born.
I am sure the NJ Appeal’s Court may have some questions for Mario. He better rehearse his answers.
To understand Minor it also is important to remember that it stated
Devastating indeed. Citizenship by birth or citizen by statute, the former natural-born the latter natural-ized.
I don’t know how to be any more clear than this. The living, breathing VOTERS decide who gets to be President. Not Vattel, not some dead Supreme Court judges, nor living Supreme Court judges, nor any dead guys in wigs and stockings. Anyone is welcome to read any or all of them, consult them through Ouija boards or mediums, commune with their spirits in any manner they wish, but they don’t get a vote.
Actually not vague at all. Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886) [emphasis mine]:
I think I should just put this one on “speed dial” as many times as I have to cite it. In addition, I am not the only one who has cited this case. It was cited in WKA.
Mario, if you are going to make a claim, it would help to do due diligence, lest a non-lawyer point out that you are wrong about “subject to the jurisdiction” being vague.
nbc,
I see that you are still making the frivolous argument that Minor did not define a “natural born-citizen” because if first provided the conditions of the term (born in a country to citizen parents) followed by the clause “natural-born citizen” rather than how Vattel in Section 212 of The Law of Nations and all the other U.S. Supreme Court cased defined the clause, i.e. first say “natural-born citizen” and then follow it with the conditions that define it. You really should be sanctioned for espousing such frivolity.
Dr. Conspiracy,
You cannot accept that the Wong Kim Ark district court did not even mention the word “natural born citizen” in its opinion. You are really grasping at straws on what the Wong district court held. That you have got to vacuum all the contents of other decisions into the opinion of the court simply because the court cited to those opinions is a real far stretch and has no basis in how case law is interpreted and applied. This is the type of faulty logical reasoning that you fall into trying to prove that Wong Kim Ark held that Wong was a “natural born Citizen,” rather than just a “citizen” from the moment of birth under the Fourteenth Amendment.
Northland10,
I can see that you are not a lawyer. You cite Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886) which is not relevant to my point.
Whenever nbc loses a debate, he resorts to threatening sanctions. How pathetic.
What is your point? Like every spring, before the advent of electronic ignition, we used to change our car’s points. Also, the plugs and condenser.
The digital computer has changed everything, I tell you.
Nbc,
I guess you are also behind the learning curve. That the states selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by statute does not mean the Founders and Framers adopted it for the national level. The Bill of Rights did selectively bring the English common law into the Constitution. But citizenship is not covered in the Bill of Rights.
When the unamended Constitution was adopted, the only law they adopted for the national level was the Constitution, treaties, Congressional Acts, and the law of nations. This law became the Article III “Laws of the United States” and became binding on the nation through the supremacy clause of Article VI.
Like nbc, when ballantine has lost a debate, he threatens sanctions. I guess they were right when they said that birds of a feather flock together.
In the Alexandra Herald articel why did the American Minister in London issue McClure a US passport “confessing him to be a native American Citizen”?
Remind me.. how many courts have agreed with your opinion?
Another Bird:
You said: “Why provide the link? Yes, there have been legal arguments that state both parents must be born in America, the link provided shows arguments that demonstrate that born parents don’t have to be.
Obama is the sixth president who parents were not born on American soil. The irony of the ruling is that it was harsh. Let us just say that Linda is correct.”
Yes, and some people maintain that the moon is made out of cheese. How dare they.
Some philosopher writing the next text book on logical fallacies should include your example in it under the chapter on straw man arguments.
You are behind the curve. You started losing in 2008 and have lost non-stop since then. In all that time you have failed to learn that the voters, not courts select the President. What a slow learner!!!
gorefan,
The U.S. passport held by James McClure did not provide much protection for him in 1810. The U.S. passport given to James McClure was issued by the American Minister in London. The Minister plenipotentiary of the United States informed the Minister of General Police in France that James McClure was not a U.S. “citizen.” That Minister then informed the French Minister of War about the matter. Based on the reports received, the French Minister of War issued an order on April 12, 1810 ordering that McClure be arrested as an “‘English prisoner of France.’” Accordingly, McClure was arrested at “L’Orient, sent under parole, and “placed under surveillance at Tours” in France.
We can understand why the French officials would not have been impressed with McClure’s U.S. passport. The issuance of the passport is suspect given that McClure had been living in England. His father was by birth an English “natural born subject,” who on February 20, 1786 had naturalized under the laws of the State of South Carolina to become a U.S. “citizen.” McClure remained in the United States only until 1795 when he was sent to England for his education and never returned to the United States. His father had also left the United States and returned to Great Britain. McClure was dispatching cargo ships from England to Peru which commercial trade could benefit England with which France was at war. Under these circumstances, it appears that McClure was using his U.S. citizenship only for commercial advantage, a reality of which David Ramsay had warned in his dissertation of 1789. France would have been interested in imprisoning English subjects who it considered its enemies and especially if they considered them to be overtly or covertly aiding and abetting the British.
McClure could not rely on his U.S. passport for anything. He had to show that he was born in the United States and that his British father naturalized after he was born and that at that time he was dwelling in the United States. So as you can see, the passport was worthless to prove that he was a U.S. citizen.
How can I see anything – I live in the back, along with the Picasso from the back of the store.
It was left to me by my zayde.
Again, Mario can offer no substantive response. Notice he make no legal arguments at all on this thread. When confronted with unambiguous authority from the Supreme Court, he has nothing to say other than to call people names. It is not me that will sanction him, it will be the courts who have no tolerance for lying. I still can beleive he said an anonymous quote he has no evidence was from Madison was probably from Madison. And to even further claim that such was the position of Madison’s administration without any proof. Seriously, what kind of person says such things? There is really something worng with him. Try reading to quote I provided from WKA above. If he can’t admit that they say that natural born subject and citizen mean the same thing and that
his interpretation of naturalization statutes is wrong, he is either a lier or an idiot. Again, I expect no response as he cannot make any response.
Why would you say such a thing? He never showed he was naturalized. The State Department only said he was born in the United States, nothing more. Can you make one post without lying? Again, there is really something wrong with you.
Funny but so far a judge has only ruled your position frivolous, not mine.
Good luck with the sanctions.
That’s how Mario makes his living – by defending the indefensible: drunk drivers.
See this from 60 Minutes – DWI: Is It Murder?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5205158n
As far as I can determine, Mario has never recanted his lie that there was a ban which prevented U.S. citizens from traveling to Pakistan in 1981. When confronted with incontrovertible evidence that no such ban existed, Mario backtracked only far enough to claim that it was a “de facto” ban.
That fact that he continues to lie should surprise no one.
Also from US v Wong Kim Ark when showing that the meaning of the term natural born had to be interpreted as found in common law and how english common law had continued in the context into the laws of the early republic, the Court showed how courts continued to rule that birth on soil grants natural-born citizenship status. No court ever appears to have considered the existence of birth on soil but not natural born as an alternative. There are only two classes of citizens: born on soil (aka natural born under common law principles) or created by statute (natural-ized)
Since Mario has apparently accepted that WKA was born in the allegiance of the United States, as he does accept that the US v WKA court found WKA to be a citizen, the conclusion is but inescapable, once again..
Also, notice how deftly Mario avoids Willard Mitt Romney’s purported unicorn DNA.
Of course, if a unicorn was drunk, Mario would rush to defend it. Psst, Mario – the unicorn’s name is Einhorn. Einhorn Zwiebel.
Gee, maybe I provided it because you have spent your time here telling people one must have two citizen-parents in order to be a natural born citizen? Maybe because this was a court decision where your theory FAILED? Is it just that this wasn’t your most recent theory’s most recent failure? I should have been more up to date? My apologies, please feel free to post a link to your latest crash and burn.
I would also love to read any decision where any court has agreed with your reasoning to decide any one of the Obama birther/ballot challenges. Please post away!
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.:
Linda,
You provided the following quote to prove some point:
“There is no arguable legal basis for the proposition that both parents of the President must have been born on U.S. soil. This assertion is as frivolous as the multitude of alleged allegations outlined above.”
Hon. Arthur M. Schack, S.C.
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/other-courts/2012/2012-ny-slip-op-50614-u.html
You are a bit behind the learning curve.May I suggest you catch up.
That’s rich. There are “Birther” sites that don’t want commenters to call President Obama “President”.
Boo hoo hoo.
Not me. I wouldn’t mind seeing Scarlett Johanson’s briefs, especially if she was in them, but I absolutely do not want to see the defendant’s and the AG’s briefs, under any circumstance.
Ballantine, having again lost the debate, still wants to sanction me. Ballantine wants me to admit that “natural born subject and citizen mean the same thing.” Now how can I do such a thing when we have Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson, signer of the Declaration of Indendence and the Constitution, tell us in 1791:
“English law has its roots in Anglo-Saxon customs, which were too firmly established to be completely broken by the Norman Conquest and still form the basis of their common law today. In 1068, having at last reduced the country to submission, William set to work to establish a Roman government on a firm and lasting basis. Roman law, the legal system of ancient Rome is now the basis of civil law, one of the main European legal systems.
***
I know that the term citizen is often applied to one of the more numerous party—to one of the people: and I shall be obliged to take the description of a citizen from the character which he supports as one of the people. But you will easily perceive, that the same person may, at different times, act or be viewed in different characters; and though his description be taken from one of them, the account of his duties and of his rights too may, on a particular occasion, be referred to the other. This I have chosen to do, rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification. Besides, the expression is frequently employed also in the sense in which I now use it. “Generally speaking,” says the great political authority, Aristotle, “a citizen is one partaking equally of power and of subordination.”
A citizen then—to draw his description as one of the people—I deem him, who acts a personal or a represented part in the legislation of his country. He has other rights; but his legislative I consider as his characteristic right. In this view, a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union: for the members of the house of representatives in the national legislature are chosen, in each state, by electors, who, in that state, have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. In this view, a citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen.
***
You will be pleased to hear, that, with regard to this as well as to many other subjects, we have renewed, in our governments, the principles and the practice of the ancient Saxons.”
We did not see anything written by Wilson which hints that a “citizen” was supposed to be analogous to a “subject.” Wilson said “rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification.” Here he told us that the people were familiar with the word “citizen” and so they chose it. He also told us that the Framers decided not to use “natural born subject” because they did not want its meaning to have further effect and did not want the people to think that it did. Hence, they chose and used a different phrase, “natural born citizen,” because it was a different phrase which was to have “a new signification.”
Note Wilson refers to Aristotle as a source for defining a “citizen.” Aristotle, in “Politics, Book Three, Part II, writing in 350 B.C.E., gave us his definition of citizenship thus:
“But in practice a citizen is defined to be one of whom both the parents are citizens; others insist on going further back; say to two or three or more ancestors. This is a short and practical definition but there are some who raise the further question: How this third or fourth ancestor came to be a citizen? Gorgias of Leontini, partly because he was in a difficulty, partly in irony, said- ‘Mortars are what is made by the mortar-makers, and the citizens of Larissa are those who are made by the magistrates; for it is their trade to make Larissaeans.’ Yet the question is really simple, for, if according to the definition just given they shared in the government, they were citizens. This is a better definition than the other. For the words, ‘born of a father or mother who is a citizen,’ cannot possibly apply to the first inhabitants or founders of a state.”
Yes, Aristotle, relied upon by Wilson for a definition of a “citizen,” said that a citizen had parents who were both citizens.
Finally, Wilson then explained who a citizen of Pennsylvania was. First, he defined a naturalized citizen, having resided in Pennsylvania for just two years. But then he described what is a “natural born Citizen,” saying that he was “between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen…”
So, there you have it ballantine. Now sanction me for that.
So just out of curiosity, have you read the political theory of this old Swiss guy, (or French, or Prussian, I’m not quite sure) named Emmerich de Vattel? He said in one of his several volumes:
“And then there are other states such as England in which the mere birth in that country is enough to make the children of a foreigner a citizen”
What I’m wondering is, why don’t you
BirthersObama Opponents cite this Vattel guy, ever? He obviously has an illuminating understanding of the situation.This is fun and all, but are you all happy to be helping Mario rehearse?
There is nothing vague about it what-so-ever.
Keith,
What spirits possessed you to say that I do not cite Vattel? I can understand you saying so ironically, thinking that what you have provided supports your point and not mine. But you are mistaken.
You say that Vattel said:
“And then there are other states such as England in which the mere birth in that country is enough to make the children of a foreigner a citizen”
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have just cut and pasted someone else’s quote which is not correctly presented. Here is the correct quote from Vattel’s The Law of Nations, Section 214, entitled “Naturalisation:”
“Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.”
Note that the passage appears under a heading for ‘naturalisation.” Furthermore, Vattel tells us that such a child born in England to alien parents was naturalized. What Vattel was probably referring to was Calvin’s Case (1608) wherein Lord Coke naturalized Calvin to be an English “natural born subject.” Calvin had been born in the King’s dominion to alien parents. Parliament, for political reasons, would not naturalize Calvin. So the English courts did it.
So as you can see, Vattel considered a child born in a country to alien parents who may be declared to be a “subject” from birth to be naturalized as such.
Please know that our early Congress was not so generous with U.S. birthright citizenship as were the English with birthright subjecthood. Congress did not grant U.S. citizenship from birth to a child born in the United States to alien parents. Rather, they allowed that child to become a naturalized “citizen” after birth upon the parents naturalizing, provided the child was dwelling in the United States and the parents naturalized before the child reached the age of majority. After that age, the child had to petitioner for naturalization on his or her own.
Finally, remember that the Founders and Framers disqualified a naturalized citizen from being a “natural born Citizen” and therefore eligible to be President. So, the Founders and Framers disqualified a child born in the United States to alien parents from being President.
Wow, one is a natural born citizen only for the duration of one year… Really Mario, you may want to double check your sources and your reasoning here.
nbc,
Your understanding has failed you here. What Wilson said was that a child born to citizen parents upon reaching the age of majority was considered a citizen of Pennsylvania. This followed, among others, the John Locke philosophy which provided that during minority, a child did not have the capacity to be a citizen, but rather just followed the citizenship of his or her parents and that upon reaching the age of majority could decide what citizenship to accept. This is the same thing that Vattel said in Section 212, except Vattel did not say that infants were not citizens. In any event, it does not really matter because a President has to be at least 35 years old.
Linda,
What a waste of time.
Your usage of the word “naturized” and “naturalization” is disingenuously incorrect.
In the United States there are exactly two, count ’em, two kinds of citizen: natural-born and natural-made (naturalized).
In this context, which is the same as Vattel’s usage, saying an individual is “a natural” is exactly the same as saying the individual is “a citizen”.
That is why the word for making an alien individual into a citizen is “naturalization”.
Playing with words by shifting the definition for different instances while pretending they are in the same context is a bad habit. My jokes about my Australian friends driving on the “wrong” side of the road because they don’t drive on the “right” side of the road wore thin the first time I used it.
My line was a joke and it is debatable whether or not it is funny. Your line is not a joke and there is no question about whether or not it is funny; it is not. The only question is whether you truly don’t understand the difference, or whether you are willfully ignorant.
The spirit of facetiousness.
And Mario somehow forgets
US v Rhodes…
The same judge also lays to rest Mario’s naturalization ‘idea’
Such a bummer
And in Dred Scott
Double ouch
Linda has gotten you cornered again.. No wonder you run. Poor Mario…
The Courts have not looked with much respect towards people making claims similar to the ones you are proposing… That by itself is no surprise to those of us who understand legal precedent and historical development of the concept of citizenship in our nation.
You are right about this one thing at least. The Constitution does not give Congress the authority make citizenship laws about “a child born in the United States” whether to alien parents or not.
Your words that follow are incorrect however.
That is just complete rubbish when applied to “a child born in the United States to alien parents”. I repeat, Congress has no authority to make citizenship law about “a child born in the United States”.
Citizens are either natural-born or natural-made (naturalized). Period. Full-stop. In this context the words “natural” and “citizen” are synonyms. The term of art “natural born” is exactly the same as the words “citizen born” and “naturalized” (natural made) is exactly the same as “citizen made” (citizenized).
“a child born in the United States to alien parents” is a “citizen born” which is exactly “natural born” and the citizenship status of the parents has nothing to do with it unless they are diplomats or part of an invading army.
Furthermore, in America, the only reason for a distinction between a natural born citizen and a natural made citizen is that one is Constitutionally eligible for the Presidency. Since this is the ONLY distinction between one American citizen and another, there is no reason for any other class of citizen to arise.
Your attempt to invent another, third kind of citizen is just plain silly. What would be the point of the existence of such a class? Sure, you can aver that such a class exists just as you can aver that there are classes of born citizens who were born in Maine or Hawai’i. There are born citizens whose parents were both citizens, whose parents included one citizen only, and whose parents were both alien. There is however, no point in the identification of those classes, none what-so-ever, there is no law or process or condition that distinguishes between those classes. And in fact, legally, they have no reality what-so-ever except to distinguish them from naturalized citizens for the purpose of Presidential eligibility, and since the one feature of their class that is common among them all, the fact that they are born citizens is the one feature that distinguishes them from made citizens, there is no need to refer to any other feature such as which state or how many citizen parents.
Sure, as is a child born on US soil to non citizen parents. The child has the right to continue his birthright citizenship if he so chooses. But I still note that you fail to provide any references that would allow us to check your reading comprehension. I am at loss why you quoted Wilson and now are claiming that he meant something different.
And yes, the right to choose is recognized by many, which makes your proposition even more troublesome.
Miller v Albright destroys Mario’s concept as well
So no naturalization of children born on US soil… Sigh… If Mario had done his homework. But now he will have to at least let the NJ Court know of his new found knowledge… The question is, will he?
Ah and Elk v Wilkins
So much relevant precedent. Mario may want to ask for a do-over?
And some icing
Knauer v. United States, 328 U.S. 654, 658 (1946) (emphasis added): “Citizenship obtained through naturalization is not a second-class citizenship. It has been said that citizenship carries with it all the rights and prerogatives of citizenship obtained by birth in this country ‘save that of eligibility to the Presidency.’”
Baumgartner v. United States, 322 U.S. 665, 680 (1944) (emphasis added). The Court also noted there: “Under our Constitution, a naturalized citizen stands on equal footing with the native citizen in all respects save that of eligibility to the Presidency.” Id. at 673.
Luria v. United States – 231 U.S. 9 (1913): “Under the Constitution of the United States, a naturalized citizen stands on an equal footing with the native citizen in all respects save that of eligibility to the Presidency.”
Mario will face an uphill battle…
People between 21 and 22 can vote even if they have not paid taxes…. Nothing to do with citizenship perse…
it’s about voting….
Your reading comprehension has once again abandoned you… Shame on you Mario…
You then changed your tune and claimed, without any evidence or reference that
That is NOT what Wilson said in the passage you quoted. Hint “in this view”
I’ll make it brief:
I’ve said in the past that Mario is like a mob lawyer, being paid by right-wing extremists to obfuscate, dissemble and, if necessary, LIE.
I hope that reading the above exchange (and Mario’s lack of denials vis vis the above) will remind posters who accuse Mario of being a fool or ignorant that he is no such thing indeed.
A contrario, there is no point in arguing with him because he is arguing in bad faith. You will never get anywhere. Cases in point: Vattel or the Pakistan travel ban, where Mario is unarguably wrong, and still persists in arguing these.
A side note: Mario mentioned Aristotle. Many moons ago, I wrote a post here where I explained the Ancient Greek notion of citizenship. Maybe Dr Conspiracy can link to it. Suffice it to say that Mario is wrong again, and like Vattel, Aristotle does NOT bolster his case.
Regardless, it’s not going to stop him from making a complete ass of himself in court.
This garrulous and galumphing Garden State gadfly is in way too deep to ever admit to lying about history and the law.
And the sad, slithering sac of sycophants on his cesspool of a blog will be crying “Corruption!” soon enough when the losing lawyer lurches and limps along with yet another stunning, litigative loss.
And that is “unquestionable”.
You just took Mario’s beloved Dred Scott and turned it against him. Beautiful.
I am sure Mario will be similarly appreciative 🙂 But yes, Mario can be so much fun… Although sometimes it feels a bit like taking candy…
Yep, Mario will never be able to untangle himself from the web he has woven. That’s the beauty of it. Over the last few years I have observed little ability in Mario to learn from his mistakes.
But, I doubt that anyone really could make a reasonable argument against US v Wong Kim Ark’s findings that would let a court accept Mario’s musings that President Obama is somehow ineligible. The history of birth right citizenship is rich and well documented. Some arm waving and invocation of ‘Vattel’ are not going to impress too many.
The NJ hearing is going to be a lot of fun I predict.
You stated the there were doubts because “subject to the jurisdiction” was vague. If you have forgotten:
Yick Wo v. Hopkins demonstrates that “subject to the jurisdiction” is not vague. Therefore, the doubts you mention were not introduced because they did not resort to a vague clause.
If “the vague ‘subject to the jurisdiction’ clause” is not relevant to your point, why did you use it?
I also posted on Aristotle and citizenship some time back. Aristotle didn’t hold with citiizenship through either parentage or place of biirth. Rather, citizenship was acquired through acts of participation in society.
“To ask who is a citizen is to ask about the identity or nature of a citizen In Aristotle’s hands, this is to ask who deserves to be a citizen or who merits the political good of citizenship. Aristotle begins his investigation by saying what will not qualify someone for citizenship: not place or location, or the capacity to sue and be sued [Pol. 1275a7-11]; not birth, ancestry, or blood [Pol. 1275b32-34]. Rather, a citizen is one who participates in ruling and judging [Pol. 1275a22-23]; one who rules and is ruled in turn [Pol. 1277b13-16]; one who shares in the judicial and deliberative offices of a polity [Pol. 1275b18-20].6 Place, legal capacity, birth, and parentage – as static qualities and/or markers of status – do not demonstrate desert in Aristotle’s view. What distinguishes the formulations Aristotle approves is their emphasis on activity: “sharing in a constitution,” to use Malcolm Schofield’s phrase, qualifies one for citizenship (Schofield 1999, 141-59).”
http://www.cas.sc.edu/poli/psrw/frank032803.pdf
In Aristotle’s view, someone who arrived here and became a participant in society would be a full citizen, with all rights, including holding the highest office. By contrast, someone who was born here of 10 generations of citizens, but chose to be a non-participant in society, would not be a citizen.
So, Aristotle certainly does NOT support Mario. In fact, Aristotle would argue that someone like Kissinger or Albright is far more “eligible” than a doofus born here to ancestors who came on the Mayflower. And that certainly makes more sense than Mario’s nonsense.
Sorry, we have shown over and over that the that is what the Supreme Court and a mountain of early authority has said. You don’t even try to dispute such authority, you just ignore it and keep repeating you are right over and over like a child.
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
There is something wrong with you if you cannot understand what that says of all the other quote we present from the Court that you just ignore. And, with Wilson, you of course misrepresent what he said. He never defined natural born citizen, he never said one needed citizen parents and never said the condition of the child followed that of t he parents. He said citizens were persons given the right to vote and participate in the government. In Pennsylvania, he is quoting the suffrage law at the time in which a citizen father is only relevant for one year. He goes on the state:
“I have, on another occasion, traced the description of a citizen in every other state of the Union:’ to your recollection of that investigation, and to the constitutions of the several states, I now refer you.”
This is done on pages 133-137 of his treatise which is simply a list of the suffrage law of all the states and for which parentage is irrelevant under every such state. Hence, according to Wilson, only men were citizens and even someone with a citizen parent was only a citizen if the state law allowed him to vote. Clearly not the mainstream view on the subject, but in no way helpful to you unless you distort what he says.
Wilson also has a whole other section where he speaks of the law of alienage and allegiance which is all directly from Blackstone where he talks of subjects natural born and aliens all defined solely by place of birth. For example:
“But to return to the subject of alienage—an alien, according to the notion commonly received as law, is one born in a strange country and in a foreign society, to which he is presumed to have a natural and a necessary allegiance.”
Whoops. Hence, Wilson’s position appears to be one was born a natural born subject but became a citizen if given the right to vote. Duh.
Again, you cannot find authority that supports you but rather distort authority that actually hurts you. Quite pathetic.
BTW, Wilson, when defining who was a Pennslyvania citizen, said in the footnote that he was citing this sufferage provision of the Pennsylvania Constitution:
“In elections by the citizens, every freeman of the age of twenty-one years, having resided in the state two years next before the election, and within that time paid a state or county tax, which shall have been assessed at least six months before the election, shall enjoy the rights of an elector: Provided, that the sons of persons qualified as aforesaid, between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-two years, shall be entitled to vote, although they shall not have paid taxes.”
Hence, if you actually read the provision Wilson said he was referring to when telling us who was a Pennsylvania citizen, a citizen parent only relieves persons between 21 and 22 from the requirement of paying taxes. A child of a citizen over 22 is not eligilbe if he doesn’t pay taxes. Duh. And, Mario thinks this provision contain Vattel’s definition of NBC. Really, really sad.
And according to Wilson, a citizen of the United States is a citizen of a state and here are the persons who are citizens of all the other states according to Wilson:
“By the constitution of New Hampshire, “every male inhabitant, with town privileges, of twenty one years of age, paying for himself a poll tax, has a right to vote, in the town or parish wherein he dwells, in the election of representatives.” r
In Massachusetts, this right is, under the constitution, enjoyed by “every male person, being twenty one years of age, and resident in any particular town in the commonwealth for the space of one year next preceding, having a freehold estate within the same town, of the annual income of three pounds, or any estate of the value of sixty pounds.” Every one so qualified may “vote in the choice of a representative for the said town.”‘
The right to choose representatives in Rhode Island is vested in “the freemen of the respective towns or places.” This regulation is specified in the charter of Charles the second. The state of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations has not assumed a form of government different from that, which is contained in the abovementioned charter.
The qualifications requisite, in the state of Connecticut, to entitle a person to vote at elections, are, maturity in years, quiet and peaceable behaviour, a civil conversation, and forty shillings freehold, or forty pounds personal estate: if the selectmen of the town certify a person qualified in those respects, he is admitted a freeman, on his taking an oath of fidelity to the state.
It ought to be observed, by the way, that this power to admit persons to be freemen, or to exclude them from being freemen, according to the sentiments which others entertain concerning their conversation and behaviour, is a power of a very extraordinary nature; and is certainly capable of being exercised for very extraordinary purposes.
The constitution of New York ordains, “that every male inhabitant of full age, who shall have personally resided within one of the counties of the state, for six months immediately preceding the day of election, shall, at such election, be entitled to vote for representatives of the said county in assembly; if during the time aforesaid he shall have been a freeholder, possessing a freehold of the value of twenty pounds, within the said county, or have rented a tenement therein of the yearly value of forty shillings; and been rated and actually paid taxes to the state.
“All inhabitants of New Jersey, of full age, who are worth fifty pounds, proclamation money, clear estate within that government, and have resided within the county, in which they shall claim a vote, for twelve months immediately preceding the election, shall be entU tied to vote for representatives in assembly.”
The right of suffrage is not specified in the constitution of Delaware; but it is provided, that, in the election of members of the legislature, it “shall remain as exercised by law at present.”
In Maryland, “all freemen above twenty one years of age, having a freehold of fifty acres of land in the county, in which they offer to vote, and residing therein; and all freemen having property in the state above the value of thirty pounds current money, and having resided in the county, in which they offer to vote, one whole year next preceding the election, shall have a right of suffrage in the election of delegates for such county.”
We find, in the constitution of Virginia, no specification of the right of suffrage
it is declared, however, that this right shall remain as it was exercised at the time when that constitution was made.
It is provided by the constitution of North Carolina, “that all freemen of the age of twenty one years, have been inhabitants of any county within the state twelve months immediately preceding the day of any election, and shall have paid publick taxes, shall be entitled to vote for members of the house of commons, for the county in which they reside.” a
According to the constitution of South Carolina, “every free white man, of the age of twenty one years, being’a citizen of the state, and having resided in it two years previous to the day of election, and who has a freehold of fifty acres of land, or a town lot, of which he hath been legally seized and possessed at least six months before such election, or, not having such freehold or lot, has resided within the election district, in which he offers to give his vote, six months before the election, and has, the preceding year, paid a tax of three shillings sterling towards the support of government, shall have a right to vote for members of the house of representatives for the election district, in which he holds such property, or is so resident.”
I am not possessed of the present constitution of Georgia. By its late constitution, it was provided, that ” all male white inhabitants, of the age of twenty one years, and possessed, in their own right, of ten pounds value, and liable to pay tax in the state, or being of any mechanick trade, and shall have been a resident six months in the state, shall have a right to vote at all elections forc representatives.”
According to the present constitution of Delaware, ” every white freeman of the. age of twenty one years, having resided in the state two years next before the election, and within that time paid a state or county tax, which shall have been assessed at least six months before the election, shall enjoy the right of an elector.” Art4. s. 1.
By an amendment of the constitution of Maryland, confirmed in the year one thousand eight hundred and two, it is provided that every free white male citizen of the state, and no other, above twenty one years of age, having resided twelve months next preceding the election in the city or county at which he offers to vote, shall have a right of suffrage. Constitutions, p. 174.
The present constitution of Georgia directs that the electors of members of the general assembly shall be citizens and inhabitants of the state, and shall have attained the age of Jwenty one years, and have paid all publick taxes which may have^been required of them, and which they have had an opportunity of paying agreeably to law, fcr the year preceding the election, and shall have resided six months within the county. Art. 4. s. 1.
In order to complete the view taken of this subject in the text, it will be proper to state the provisions made by the constitutions of the new states admitted into the Union respecting the qualifications of electors.
In Vermont, ” every man of the full age of twenty one years, having resided in the state for the space of one whole year next before the election of representatives, and who is of a quiet and peaceable behaviour, and will take the following oath or affirmation, shall be entitled to all the privileges of the state.—’ You do solemnly swear (or affirm) that whenever you give your vote or suffrage, touching any matter that concerns the state of Vermont, you will do it so as in your conscience you shall judge will most con
foregoing enumeration of the provisions, which have been made, in the several states, concerning the right of suffrage, we are well warranted, I think, in drawing this broad and general inference—that, in the United States, this right is extended to every freeman, who by his residence, has given evidence of his attachment to the country, who, by having property, or by being in a situation to acquire property, possesses a common interest with his fellow citizens; and who is not in such uncomfortable circumstances, as to render him necessarily dependent, for his subsistence, on the will of others.
By the constitution of Tennessee, every freeman of the age of twenty one years and upwards, possessing a freehold in the county wherein he may vote, and being an inhabitant of the state, and every freeman, being an inhabitant of any one county in the state six months immediately preceding the day of election, shall be entitled to vote for members of the general assembly, for the county ia which he shall reside. Art. 3. s. 1.
The constitution of Kentucky provides, that in all elections for representatives, every free male citizen (negroes, mulattoes, and Indians excepted) who at the time being hath attained to the age of twenty one years, and resided in the state two years, and the county or town in which he offers to vote one year next preceding the election, shall enjoy the right of an elector. Art. 2. s. 8.
In the state of Ohie, the rights of electors are enjoyed by all white male inhabitants above the age of twenty one years, having resided in the state one year next preceding the election, and who have paid or are charged with a state or county tax. Cons. Art. 4. ”
Does anyone see a parent citizenship requirement in any state? Of course not. Mario’s arugment get more and more pathetic.
Sure. Unfortunately, this is one of those comments still suffering from issues with character-set conversion when I moved to the new blog.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/10/de-vattel-reprise/#comment-75038
True, you got me. That was a trick question. I know that there have not been any courts who have ruled in favor of your two citizen-parent theory.
You mention Aristotle, Vattel and Wilson, and the hallowed Minor case, and claim they support your theory. Do you allege there is any proof of your theory in a US court decision post 1900? If so, please be so kind as to post a link.
Most people here have read and understand the decisions of Minor, Wong Kim Ark, Elk, Perkins v Elg, and Lynch v Clark. Same goes for the decisions in all the “birther” suits and ballot challenges, including those in which you were personally involved or which used the same two parent-citizen theory. We know how those were ruled.
(Mis)quoting someone from the 1700s or earlier doesn’t change any of that.
I can’t speak as an attorney but I would guess that the feeling is that the more exposure the judges have to Mario’s argument the worse it will be for him in the end. Of course, we also have not seen the defense opposition brief, which was due on Friday. I am sure Mario has a copy by now and could publish it if he chose.
I can speculate that when the judges saw his almost 60 page brief that included his perverted interpretations of cases like Minor and WKA, poor quality copies of Obama’s high school year book that prove absolutely nothing, and allusions to Arpaio;s joke in Arizona it may have gotten the judges’ attention to the point that they decided that they really needed to get this guy on record answering their questions. What I assure you is that is was not a case that they thought Apuzzo actually had a case with any merit whatsoever.
nbc,
The Obots always scream racism whenever someone cites and quotes Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) (J. Daniels concurring)’s Vattelian definition of a “natural born Citizen,” even though his Vattelian definition of a “natural born Citizen” has absolutely nothing to do with race or color. I have shown that the early naturalization acts treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien themselves and that only upon the naturalization of the parents did their minor children also become naturalized U.S. citizens. This revelation is the smoking gun on the meaning of a ‘natural born Citizen,” i.e., that it also excluded any child born in the United States to alien parents. So the Obots are left with having to show that my interpretation of the early naturalization acts is not correct. So what do they do? They look for comfort in Dred Scott. They provide the following quote from Dred Scott to show that Congress had no power to nauralize anyone born in the United States:
“And this power granted to Congress to establish an uniform rule of naturalization is, by the well understood meaning of the word, confined to persons born in a foreign country, under a foreign Government. It is not a power to raise to the rank of a citizen anyone born in the United States who, from birth or parentage, by the laws of the country, belongs to an inferior and subordinate class.”
Id. 417.
When the Obots want to find support for their position that Congress had no power to naturalize anyone born in the United States so they can overcome my position on the correct interpretation of the early naturalization acts, they cited and quote Dred Scott, which said that Congress could not naturalize blacks who were born in the United States. So when they need racist policy and Dred Scott’s racist findings, they whole heartedly accept them as sound law. But when it comes to Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen,” which has nothing to do with race or color, they reject it as racist.
Apart from their despicable hypocricy, there is no legal basis to the Obot’s position that Congress never had power to naturalize person born in the United States. On Congress’s power to naturalize someone born in the United States who is not a “natural born Citizen,” prior to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment, there was no Constitutional impediment to Congress exercising such power. Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 gives Congress the plenary power to naturalize anyone who is not a “natural born Citizen.” There is nothing in the Constitution which even remotely suggests that such power may not be exercise over those who may be born in the United States who according to Congress are born with alienage. In fact, Congress exercised that power when it passed the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. This is well documented by the James Madison Administration which resolved the James McClure citizinshihp case by finding that McClure, who was born in the United States, was deemed a naturalized “citizen of the United States” under the Naturalization Act of 1802. It again exercised that power in the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which focused only upon persons born in the United States and therefore expressly covered in its text the citizenship status of persons born in the United States. So Dred Scott’s statement that Congress could not naturalize blacks who were born in the United States has no constitutional basis and neither does the Obots’ position. This means that my interpretation of the early naturalization acts stands not only as constitutionally sound but well-supported by the historical record.
For those persons who are interested in finding out more about Obot hypocrisy, consider this. They say that a naturalized citizen is not eligible to be President, even though such person, to be a “citizen of the United States,” as an adult has voluntarily taken an oath to be loyal only to the United States and swore off all foreign allegiances. This person would be Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger. But then they also say that a person who is born in the United States to alien parents, who at birth is born with dual or more conflicting allegiances and loyalties to foreign powers and who never takes any oath to be loyal only to the United States and has never swore off all foreign allegiances to foreign powers is eligible to be President. This person would be Barack Hussein Obama (assuming he was born in the United States).
I’m assuming you are a pathological liar.
All your words, Mario, are irrelevant, because the case you are arguing in court is a ballot case and New Jersey law forbids excluding recognized party nominees from the ballot. The simple truth is that the Republicans could nominate Schwarzenegger and the Democrats could nominate Granholm and everyone might agree they are not eligiblle, but the law (which is supposed to mean something to you) requires they be put on the ballot for the voters to pronounce upon and subsequently for the Electoral College and Congress to deal with.
Mr Purpura is free to not vote for Obama, Romney or anyone else as is everyone else in New Jersey, but that is the sole and complete extent of his rights.
I will cite again, because you obviously missed it, the 12th Amendment: “The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.
The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed:”
Shall be the President
Shall be the President
Shall be the President
No qualifiers, no ifs, no buts
Your problem is you don’t understand how to read case law. JusticeDaniel quoted Vattel to show the writers on public law agreed that citizens had equal rights and privleges. Thus, one can say he agreed with Vattel on that, not ther definition of natural born, which had nothing to do with the purpose of the citation. Astounding you don’t understand this law school 101 stuff. Only Justise Curtis defined natural born citizen. In the opinion and your failure to mention that is again incrrdibly dishonest.
The only thing the majority and dissents agreed on was that only the foreign born could be naturalized. And such notion was not overruled by the 14th amendment as its framers repeately acknowlged that such was the law. Hence there is no reason such provision by the majority and dissent cannot still be cited. Of course, Wong Kim Ark confirm this view telling us that children of aliens have always been native born citizens. Sorry, the Supreme Court’s. Opinion counts, not yours. So, have you found anyone other than your anonymous letter that supports your interpretation? Have you found one authorritty that says children of aliens are aliens? Of course not.
This isn’t hypocrisy, for anyone interested in how Mario Apuzzo distorts reality. This is just the Constitution. As such, if he wishes to insist it is hypocrisy, he is just saying the Constitution is hypocritical.
There is no hypocracy. We did not make up the English common law rule. We didn’t tell the founders to adopt such rule. We didn,t tell the supreme cpurt and literally hundreds of legal authorities to say we adopted the English common law. If you don’t like history and what the law is, you can try to change it, not lie about what the courts and scholars have said the law is .
Of course it’s all here in the following State Dept manuals:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86757.pdf
They haven’t actually taken a stand on who is a natural born citizen for Presidential eligibility purposes though. I don’t think this is necessarily important as it’s almost universally accepted that one born in the US other than to diplomats or invading armies is a citizen and a natural born citizen.
It does raise some interesting questions that I’ve posed. There is the possibility of a foreign diplomat being married to a US citizen or maybe a foreign national of another country. I can’t see that a child born to a US citizen parent wouldn’t be considered a US citizen at birth regardless of the status of the other parent. Also – there’s an interesting issue where consular employees (even up to the consul-general) are typically not considered diplomats. They don’t have full diplomatic immunity in the US and are subject to the laws of the US except for official consular duties. Their consular facilities are considered inviolate though, but they don’t have the virtual “get out of jail free card” that diplomats serving in embassies have. The basic premise of the movie Lethal Weapon 2 was that the consular employees of the South African Consul-General of Los Angeles had full diplomatic immunity and a practical license to commit crimes without being arrested. However, this isn’t true. Recently a lower level consular employee at the Consul-General of Japan in San Francisco was arrested and arraigned for allegedly beating up on his wife.
Here are the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802 and the Civil Rights Act of 1866. (I wasn’t readily able to find the text for the 1855 act you referenced.) The text of the acts DO NOT say anything about naturalizing a person born in the US. Likewise, the clause you reference in the US Constitution DOES NOT give Congress the power to naturalize anyone born in the US, nor if it did does it anyway limit that to anyone other than an NBC.
Citizenship in the US may ONLY be acquired by birth or naturalization. That is it. Those born in the US require no naturalization.
Again, there you are, (mis)quoting and (mis)interpreting acts, events, etc., from prior to 1900. You have anything post-1900?
http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/5596748
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/naturalization/naturalization_text.html
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reconstruction/activism/ps_1866.html
Article I, Section 8, Clause 4
“To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;”
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8
Now you get it! You finally understand the only difference between an NBC and a naturalized citizen in the US, which is the ability to become president. Congrats!
He and his wallowing weasels must be longing for the reinstatement of the Dred Scott decision.
if someone insists in banging their head againt a wall, you can advise them not to, tell them it’ll hurt, and hold a cushion in front of their head while they practice. but in the end they’ll just go ahead and do it, and they’ll find out it hurts despite having been advised about it before.
that, pretty much is our mario.
For those interested in knowing about the frivolous nature of the Obot arguments regarding the definition of a “natural born Citizen,” consider this:
They contend that Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875) did not give us a definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Treating the clause “natural born Citizen” as if the Founders and Framers gave the clause numerous definitions, they say that because Minor provided the elements of what a “natural-born citizen” is (born in the country to parents who are citizens of that country) before it said that those elements describe a “natural-born citizen,” i.e., A + B = natural-born citizen, the Court did not provide a definition of a “natural born Citizen.” They say that only if the Court would have first stated “natural-born citizen,” and then followed it with the elements of what make up a “natural-born citizen,” would the Court have provided a definition of a “natural-born citizen,” i.e., natural-born citizen=A + B. They make such an argument notwithstanding that Minor told us that historically there had been only one doubt-free definition of a “natural-born citizen” which means that it does not matter in what sequence Minor placed the constituent elements of birth in the country to citizen parents and the clause defined, “natural-born citizen.”
They also make this argument when, among other sources, Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758); The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring); Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) (J. Daniels concurring); Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879); United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890); and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898) all used the same elements that the Minor Court used, i.e., birth in the country and birth to citizen parents, in their definition of a “natural born Citizen” and provided no other definition of the clause.
Yes, that’s Mario’s problem: There are people who have actually read and understood these cases. That places Mario at a distinct disadvantave.
You are formally a litigant in a serious case, and yet you use imprecise language and terms that have no legitimate definition for your venue.
Then you use a whole lot of words to basically say that there is no evidence that President Obama’s citizenship is due to any act of naturalization.
You are smart enough to realize that this destroys any case you might otherwise make, but not smart enough to recognize that a lot of the people who you hoped to persuade are smarter than you.
And his crank legal nonsense will get him laughed out of court. Unquestionably.
Mario still has not read US v Wong Kim Ark… I can’t wait for him to make this argument in an actual court…
After all, if, as Mario is suggesting, WKA did not provide another definition of the clause, how come that it found that natural born’s definition, as found in common law, was birth on soil, regardless of the status of the parents.
Who is Mario trying to fool here. Certainly not the judges who, looking at the precedential ruling of US v WKA, rejected Matio’s foolish arguments and adopted the birth on soil as the definition.
Poor Mario… Neither the Courts nor these informed blogs give him the respect, he believes he deserves.
It’s hard to take Mario seriously when he continues to exhibit such poor reading skills, combined with a lack of logic and reason.
Can’t wait for the NJ Court hearing. They invited you to show up in their Court Room, are you bringing your check book my dear friend?
For those interested in knowing about the frivolous nature of Mario Apuzzo’s arguments regarding the definition of a “natural born citizen,” consider this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_v._Happersett
At a minimum, but that has happened before already. So the question now is really, will he have to pay for the entertainment… One can only hope that justice will be served here.
Nothing in there about parents being citizens….
He is properly styled President Barack Hussein Obama, and it is a demonstrated fact supported by the highest standards of evidence possible that he was born in the United States, not an assumption as you assert.
And this of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Kim_Ark
The context of Minor v Happersett is undeniable and destroys any claim by Mario
The court is exploring the definition of ‘who shall be natural-born citizens’ and observes that it certainly includes children born in a country to parents who are citizens, clearly ‘jus soli’ because otherwise it would have included children born to parents who are citizens. So it rejected Mario’s proposition from the start. But then the Court wondered if children born on soil to alien parents would be included as well. If they were found to be citizens, they would of course also be natural born.
The court however does not address the question and focuses on their finding that children born of citizen parents are citizens (and of course natural born as opposed to natural-ized).
There is just no good evidence for Mario’s position and arguments, which is of course why the courts have used harsh words to describe any such attempts to ‘inform’ the court…
Yes, such is the law of our Nation. The mere fact of dual allegiance has never been considered to be a disability to birthright citizenship and President Obama, by continuing to live in the United States has shown that he did not follow his Father. In fact, when his father left the Country, he continued to live with his mother and grand parents., mostly in the United States.
Loyalty to our Nation is not determined by oath but by actions.
Our Nation has since long recognized that children born on our soil have a birth right citizenship which unlike those naturalized provide them with the right to serve as our President once they meet the requirements laid out in the eligibility clause. After all, naturalized persons share the same rights as the native persons, with only one difference, the latter can run for the office of the Presidency. The Courts have been quite explicit here”
Good luck Mario.
These cases involve children born in a ‘foreign nation’, even though that nation shares the same geographic regions. The status of Indians has always been peculiar in our Nation and since the children are not born under US jurisdiction, but rather owing allegiance to their nation, their removal is guided not by US municipal law but rather by International Law.
Understanding this is, is the first necessary step to understand the rulings.
Thus in Waldron v US we learn
As the Court pointed out in Elk v Wilkins
Mario has been confused by cases where the ‘law of nations’ does apply but ignored the cases where common-law of the US takes precedent.
Apples and oranges…
In fact, the court in US v WKA clearly rejected that citizenship is determined by international law and instead found that it was guided by the common law meaning of natural born which meant: birth on soil only.
As Marshall Woodworth observed in his American Law Review paper:
The Minor Court clearly did not accept the Jus Soli interpretation when it focused on the location of birth only. In fact, even the Founding Fathers found it necessary to extend citizenship by statute to children born abroad to US parents, something unnecessary if they had followed the jus soli principle.
Good luck Mario…
As I concluded earlier, Mario may still be fine tuning his ‘arguments’ but so far he has shown no inclination to learn from his mistakes and limited reading comprehension.
This week is going to be a lot of fun. Are the arguments going to be recorded?
I have maintained all along that Justice Gray in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898), interpreting and applying the Fourteenth Amendment, naturalized Wong “at birth” to be a “citizen of the United States” like Lord Coke in Calvin’s Case (1608) naturalized Calvin from birth to be a “natural born subject” under the English common law. Agreeing with my position, the Birther.org just sent me this precious find:
***************
“Facts of the Case
The Chinese Exclusion Acts denied citizenship to Chinese immigrants. Moreover, by treaty no Chinese subject in the United States could become a naturalized citizen. Wong Kim Ark was born in San Francisco. At age 21, he returned to China to visit his parents who had previously resided in the United States for 20 years. When he returned to the United States, Wong was denied entry on the ground that he was not a citizen.
Question
Could the government deny naturalization to persons born in the United States in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment?
Conclusion
No. The government could not deny naturalization to anyone born in the United States. To reach this conclusion, Justice Gray’s tedious majority opinion managed to traverse much of western civilization.”
Source: OYEZ.org at http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1896/1896_132
The Oyez Project at Chicago-Kent College of Law is a multimedia archive devoted to the Supreme Court of the United States and its work. It aims to be a complete and authoritative source for all audio recorded in the Court since the installation of a recording system in October 1955. The Project also provides authoritative information on all justices and offers a virtual reality Tour of portions of the Supreme Court building, including the chambers of some of the justices.
This analysis by the Oyez U.S. Supreme Court project correctly recognizes that the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark actually naturalized Wong, who was born in the United States to domiciled alien parents, to be a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” and that the Government could not prevent Wong from enjoying that right that he gained by being born in the United States to domiciled alien parents. Note that prior to the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark, under all Congressional Acts starting with the Naturalization Act of 1790, a child born in the United States to alien parents was born an alien and could only become a naturalized “citizen of the United States” upon his or her parents naturalizing if done before reaching the age of majority if he was dwelling in the United States or by his or her own petition if done thereafter. What the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark did is create automatic naturalization “at birth” for those born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” They brought the United States back to how Great Britain treated children born in the King’s dominions to alien parents in the 18th Century, as explained by Vattel in his Section 214, entitled, “Naturalisation:” “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.” Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758).
The inescapable conclusion from this is that being a “naturalized” citizen “at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, Wong Kim Ark did not hold that Wong was an Article II “natural born Citizen,” nor could it have. Rather, it held that he was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth, although in effect a naturalized one “at birth.”
No, it said there was no doubt about about one class and failed to address the doubts on a second class. Didn’t say such doubt had merits or were about a different type of citizenship than natural born citizenship. Spin and distort all you want, but it doesn’t say native children of aliens were not natural born. Only Mario wold try to pretend that a case that expressly avoided addressing the disposive question before us is authority on the question it avoided. But what else does he have?
They also make this argument when, among other sources, Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758); The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring); Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) (J. Daniels concurring); Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879); United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890); and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898) all used the same elements that the Minor Court used, i.e., birth in the country and birth to citizen parents, in their definition of a “natural born Citizen” and provided no other definition of the clause.
So sad. Mario is still citing Justice Marshall even though such contains a citation to Vattel that has nothing to do with citizenship but domicile. This has been pointed out a hundred times to him and he never responds for even a 1st year law student knows a citation is only relevent with respect to its purpose. A cite on tax law means the author agrees with the point on tax law, not extraneous material that has nothing to do with tax law. When someone has been told he is being dishonest and has no defense to such dishonestly, it is hard to believe he would continue the dishonesty. The same is true with Justice Daniel’s quote which again had noting to do with natural born citizenship or who was born a citizen. Reynolds and Ward were about whether half-breed indians were indians or not and said nothing about who was born a citizen. It is simply a fact that no court has ever said one needs citizen parents to be natural born. Mario will never accept this.
That he keeps saying Wong Kim Ark support him is just sad. Notice we keep quoting provisions from Wong Kim Ark and he never responds as he has no answer to clear unambiguus statements he is wrong. And, of course, he leave out all the post Wong Kim Ark cases such as all the Supreme Court cases that say the President be native born. Or how about:
“The very learned and useful opinion of Mr. Justice Gray, speaking for the court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, establishes that, at common law in England and the United States, the rule with respect to nationality was that of the jus soli, that birth within the limits of the jurisdiction of the Crown, and of the United States, as the successor of the Crown, fixed nationality, and that there could be no change in this rule of law except by statute” Weedin v. Chin Bow”
“We thus have an acknowledgment that our law in this area follows English concepts with an acceptance of the jus soli, that is, that the place of birth governs citizenship status except as modified by statute.” Rogers v. Bellie
I know, I know, these simply don’t count just like the first 21 pages of Wong Kim Ark don’t count.
Let’s explore some more. This time Ide, Citizenship by birth Another View:
Correctly understanding Minor and others
Observing that there are not unifrom rule of International Law:
Pointing to a foremost work on International Law
For those interested in just a few of the many errors/misunderstandings/misinterpretations (or falsehoods, gasp!) stated by Mr. Apuzzo:
(PART A)
1. The Court in Minor did not “define” NBC.
2. The Court in Minor did not say that there was historically only one doubt free definition of NBC.
3. The “Founders and Framers” did not give numerous definitions for NBC, nor I have seen that claim here. The Founders and Framers did not define it at all (or we wouldn’t be having this discussion) as “natural born” was a common term in use centuries before the Constitution was written. As such, there was no need to define it in the Constitution, as all knew what it meant. Had they chosen to give a novel definition to an existing term, they could have easily done so.
4. The Court in Wong Kim Ark did not say that the Court in Minor defined NBC, nor were they silent on it. They said, as we keep saying, that there are only two types of citizenship in the US, natural born or naturalized. In fact, the Wong Court said of the Court in Minor, following the quote of your favorite line, “Minor v. Happersett (1874), 21 Wall. 162, 88 U. S. 166-168. The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/case.html
Note: The Court did not say Eureka! They have a definition!
Speaking of dual and conflicted loyalties, Mario, have you gone to the Italian consulate and renounced the Italian citizenship you were almost certainly born with through your parents and grandparents?
Errors/misstatements/misinterpretations as stated by Mr. Apuzzo
(PART B)
5. The Court in Wong Kim Ark also cites Minor thusly: “The Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words, either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except insofar as this is done by the affirmative declaration that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” In this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett, 21 Wall. 162; Ex parte Wilson, 114 U. S. 417, 114 U. S. 422; Boyd v. United States, 116 U. S. 616, 116 U. S. 624, 116 U. S. 625; Smith v. Alabama, 124 U. S. 465.”
Please note the Wong Court’s consistency in NOT saying that the Minor Court set forth the holy gail of definitions for NBC.
6. For added fun, the Court in Wong proves that your earlier assertions about naturalizing children born in the US to alien parents is FALSE:
“While, then, the naturalization of the father carries with it that of his minor children, and his declaration of intention relieves them from the preliminary steps for naturalization, and minors are allowed to count part of the residence of their minority on the whole term required, and are relieved from the declaration of intention, the statutes make no provision for formal declaration of election by children born in this country of alien parents on attaining majority.”; and
7. No wonder Mr. Apuzzo doesn’t like the Wong Kim Ark case! The Court also cites Lynche Clark. “That all children born within the dominion of the United States of foreign parents holding no diplomatic office became citizens at the time of their birth does not appear to have been contested or doubted until more than fifty years after the adoption of the Constitution, when the matter was elaborately argued in the Court of Chancery of New York and decided upon full consideration by Vice Chancellor Sandford in favor of their citizenship. Lynch v. Clark, (1844) 1 Sandf.Ch. 583.”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/case.html
In Lynch v Clark, the Court ruled “By the common law, all persons born within the ligeance of the crown of England, were natural born subjects, without reference to the status or condition of their parents…
The term citizen, was used in the constitution as a word, the meaning of which was already established and well understood. And the constitution itself contains a direct recognition of the subsisting common law principle, in the section which defines the qualification of the President. “No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,” … The only standard which then existed, of a natural born citizen, was the rule of the common law, and no different standard has been adopted since. Suppose a person should be elected President who was native born, but of alien parents, could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the constitution? I think not.”
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/the-great-mother-of-all-natural-born-citizen-quotation-pages/
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18063999/Lynch-v-Clarke
Btw is Mario still pretending Charles Gordon’s position on WKA is that it stated nothing relevant to the question of eligibility to the office of the President?
Remember that Mario claimed: [Gordon] says Wong had nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen”
In proper context (reading comprehension) it is clear that Gordon’s objections to Wong Kim Ark are not with respect to the status of children born on US soil, but rather how Wong Kim Ark is to be interpreted with respect to foreign born children of US citizens.
As to what Gordon did have to say:
Funny how the paper somewhat disagrees with Mario here. The question is: Did Mario present his foolish position to the Appeal’s Court? Surely the Court will have some fun with this.
I do notice Mario referenced Gordon in a footnote… Hilarious…
Then there is Mario’s appeal to George Tucker who stated
Remember that Mario had “argued” (but failed to provide support) that
Ballantine quickly exposed Mario
Ballantine finishes off with a nice reference
Poor Mario, no respect and no evidence of much of a reading comprehension.
So Oyez got the description of the case wrong in their blurb on their website. Let’s see what judge will overturn actual case law for a botched abstract. Or, for that matter, elevate this blurb to the level of an “analysis,” beyond the most rudimentary sense of the word. While it does state a “conclusion,” there is not really any “analysis” present here.
For anyone who is interested in considering how much of a joke Mario Apuzzo’s attempts to make mountains out of mole hills are.
Wow, you are now citing a law outline on a cite from a 3rd rate law school that looks like it was done by a 1st year student. Why not cite Triube and Olson who cited Wong Kim Ark to state that anyone born on sovereign territory was a natural born citizen. Why not cite the CRS report or the numerous recent cases that cite Wong Kim Ark to say the English rule applies. Why not cite the Heritage Guide to the Constitution or the dozens of modern law reviews that interpret WKA correctly. Why not cite Alexander Morse or Justice Fuller who both realized Justice Gray was saying WKA was natural born. No, you found an outline by some unknown person on the internet. You are pathetic.
Now show me where Justice Gray’s opinion says WKA was naturalized? He doesn’t. What does he say? He says there are 2 types of citizens under the 14th Amendment just like he said there were two types of citizens under the original Constitution in Elk v. Wilkins. From WKA:
“The Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in the declaration that ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside’, contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two only: birth and naturalization.”
For those who cannot read, that means naturalized citizens are different from citizens at birth. DUH! In case some of his readers were stupid, Justice Gary continues:
“Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.”
How can anyone read such a sentence and think that WKA, who is deemed by the Court to be born in the US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, is naturalized. No one could unless he is dishonest or stupid. Please explain Mario? Are you dishonest or stupid?
Please show us a single court that ever said a person born on US soil was naturalized. We have been waiting for years. What kind of person keeps repeating claims he cannot support with any authority at all?
Well, in Dred Scott the Court denied that people born on soil could be naturalized… That precedent was continued in more recent rulings, as I have shown.
Oops
The clue no doubt is the word “tedious” that the abstract writer uses. Having found the opinion tedious, the writer perhaps couldn’t even be bothered to read it, properly or at all.
This is the simple that Mario will not accept:
1. The Court says those born here cannot be naturalized.
2. The Court says that “inferior races” cannot be born citizens, thus
3. Dred Scott (or other “inferior races,” generally) cannot be citizens.
Then comes the 14th Amendment which states, all born here are citizens no matter the race, nationality, etc. This effectively overrules 2 and 3, but it does not say anything on whether those born here could be naturalized.
All that is left is 2 types of citizens, born or naturalized.
And the court in Miller v Albright again denied Mario’s thesis
Poor Mario.. I wonder if he will share his new found (or not so new found) knowledge with the Court.
I contacted the site to let them know about the mistake. “Naturalization” according to Black’s Law Dictionary is:
“The act of adopting an alien into a nation, and clothing him with all the rights possessed by a natural- born citizen.”
I’ll let you contact Black’s about that.
As for Minor, here is another possible, simple comparison:
1. FBI searches a house without a warrant and justifiable probable cause.
2. A court tosses out the evidence collected on the warrant and states as their logic:
a. It has never been doubted that the 4th Amendment has always applied to the Federal Government.
b. Some authorities go further and believe that the 4th Amendment applies to the state and local government.
c. Of the first, their have never been doubts, but as to the second, their have been. However, it is not necessary to solve these doubts at this time.
The court is not stating that the 4th Amendment does not apply to the states, it is stating it is not necessary to consider this since their conclusion is only dependent on the first.
In Minor, the Court’s holding was on voting rights and, since their holding would apply to any citizen, even those with 2 citizen parents, it was not necessary to discuss citizenship any further. The used the strictest definition possible, not to define citizenship but to remove doubts on to whom their ruling would apply.
Someone who makes his living defending the indefensible: drunk drivers.
Do you enjoy Strawman arguments that much? There is no hypocrisy here.
Schwarzenegger is ineligible not because ‘Obots’ say he is, or want him to be, or are biased against Austrians or anything like that. Heck, one of my best friends is Austrian, and Ahnold seems like a heck of a guy, and far superior, both politically and intellectually, to any of the other clowns currently available to the Republicans.
Obama is eligible not because ‘Obots’ say he is, or want him to be, or are biased in favor of mixed race intellectuals. Heck, I’ve known quite a few mixed race intellectuals I wouldn’t go near with a ten foot library card, and he is quite hampered by the ‘first black President’ millstone he has to wear around his neck.
No, Schwarznegger is ineligible because the CONSTITUTION says people born in Austria are not eligible.Obama is eligible because the CONSTITUTION says people born in Hawai’i are eligible. End of story.
If you want to campaign for a Constitutional amendment that would allow folks in the Governator’s position to hold the Presidency, then by all means go for it. I’ll even support you, because I don’t think the NBC clause is necessary anymore. However, since the Framers felt it was necessary, and not enough political will to change it has come up in the 220 odd years since it was included, the NBC clause is currently required and you have one hell of a lot of nerve trying to abuse people who support an eligible candidate and ignore an ineligible one.
And the folks who post here aren’t even necessarily Obama supporters. That is why Woodman doesn’t like you to use the term Obot, get it? Most posters, whether they are naturally conservative or naturally liberal, are here because they refuse to allow people like you to get away with lying about the Constitution and the American political system.
There is no hypocrisy in defending the position of the Constitution, but there is in knowingly lying about the Constitution, especially when there is no reason other than soothing your own bruised ego.
There is no doubt in my mind that you are willfully lying about your understanding of the Constitution, the American Political system, and the entire citizenship/ eligibility issue. At this stage in your Quixotic Quest, you have had every opportunity to have learned from your mistakes, and you know the truth of the matter. Therein lies the hypocrisy, Mr. Apuzzo, therein lies the hypocrisy.
Enjoy your day in Court. I hope you find it educational.
Hey, I think you have a winner. Why not use that in your oral presentation of the appeal of Purpura v. Obama. I adapted it for you.
No?
As a practical matter, there is a hierarchy of Consular officials who have diplomatic immunity. Not every foreigner who works in a consular post overseas has ‘full diplomatic immunity’.
Furthermore, if a Consular official with diplomatic immunity is suspected of a serious crime, the US will ask for the Country to revoke the accreditation, thus allowing the prosecution to proceed. Thus, Diplomatic Immunity does not provide an Ambassador absolute protection from responsibility for committing murder, only from harassment.
These ‘international incidents’ are rare, however, most countries are pretty good at vetting their representatives. Non-criminal violations are most often punished by expelling the offending diplomat.
Simple misdemeanors are simply overlooked, ask the New York City Police department how much UN officials owe in parking fines. Now that is how to rort the system. I think we need to get Mario Apuzzo, Esq. on the job here. There has got to be a way for him to combine his lack of Constitutional understanding with a Parking Ticket case.
If you want to use math symbols to describe what is going on, it would be more like:
Minor There is no doubt that (2 + 2) = 4. There is some doubt about whether or not (3 + 1) = 4 or (4 + 0) = 4 but that doesn’t matter to us because Ms. Minor is (2 + 2) so we don’t have to address the (3 + 1) or (4 + 0) issues.
Wong We agree with the California District court that (4 + 0) = 4.
It follows from Wong that (3 + 1) = 4 as well.
And don’t get me started on Legislatures that define ‘pi’ as exactly equal to 3.
Someone has to defend those to make sure that proper justice is served. Lawyers also defend murderers.
Not a very good argument. Of course DUI is a pretty straightforward law practice really, not too challenging I believe but as I said, someone needs to do the job.
Let’s see what a Constitutional Law Professor thinks:
Mr. Choper responded that “natural born” simply meant “not naturalized.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/constitutional-law-scholar-on-natural-born-issue
At the risk of self-promotion, since some might not be aware of it, I’m going to point out that over the past couple of months — ironically, since making an initial attempt to retire from the birther issues and then letting myself get pulled back in — I’ve written about 15 articles on various aspects of the legal and meaning of “natural born citizen,” an index to which can be found here.
This hopefully represents a bit more organized analysis and refutation of a good many of the birther false claims. As far as I’m aware, all of the significant legal arguments made by Mr. Apuzzo and others ought to be covered. All of these arguments are false, and I’ve given hopefully clear reasons as to why this is so.
There’s an article on US v Wong Kim Ark. I could’ve written a great deal more on that case, including an article on Fuller’s dissent which I find to be shockingly ridden with fallacies and even self-contradiction. Many elements of Fuller’s dissent seem so far from Constitutional and historical reality that I was surprised he could find even one other Justice to sign off on it. I am doubly mystified by Justice Harlan’s joining the dissent giving his stance as the lone dissenter in Plessy v Ferguson.
An article on Fuller’s dissent, though, has remained unwritten as it simply was not necessary to show that the birther position on US v Wong Kim Ark is a false one. One simple article was all it took. On the other hand, I wrote a series of five articles on the much less important (in regard to natural born citizenship) Minor v Happersett, since that is what the birthers have made their flagship case.
There’s an article on Elk v Wilkins (inspired by a Tracy Fair claim regarding Chester A Arthur that I hadn’t heard before), three articles on Mario Apuzzo’s claim that American common law gave us the definition of “natural born citizen,” an article on Vattel, and a few articles that are more to do with the historical understanding that the legalities.
Mr. Apuzzo has proven unable to refute, as far as I can tell, any of the main points made. His style is to reassert arguments that have been shown to be false, and confidently claim that they are true, and that he has “won” the debate.
There’s also a list of 18 Apuzzo failures in this comment that some might find interesting.
Just 18? Hmmm Does it include his perspectives on Charles Gordon?
Um… no. I forgot about that one. Although I do seem to recall that I have in the past pointed out that Gordon refutes him as well.
I do apologize for the incompleteness of the list. 😉
And to top all that Mario will find out on Wednesday that the Courts also do not really take his musings seriously. He will be lucky if they let him off without sanctions or calling his actions frivolous.
From WKA….
The decision in Elk v. Wilkins concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.
Oops, there goes Marios’ Elk idea
And some more
In State v. Ah Chew (1881), 16 Nevada 50, 58, the Supreme Court of Nevada said: “The Amendments did not confer the right of citizenship upon the Mongolian race, except such as are born within the United States.” In the courts of the United States in the Ninth Circuit, it has been uniformly held, in a series of opinions delivered by Mr. Justice Field, Judge Sawyer, Judge Deady, Judge Hanford, and Judge Morrow, that a child born in the United States of Chinese parents, subjects of the Emperor of China, is a native-born citizen of the United States. In re Look Tin Sing (1884), 10 Sawyer 358; Ex parte Chin King (1888), 13 Sawyer 333; In re Yung Sing Hee (1888) 13 Sawyer 482; In re Wy Shing (1888), 13 Sawyer 530; Gee Fook Sing v. United States (1892), 7 U.S.App. 7; In re Wong Kim Arm (1896), 71 Fed.Rep. 38. And we are not aware of any judicial decision to the contrary.
Oh and lets not forget Mario, the court was FULLY aware what the ruling meant, as stated in the opposition……
Considering the circumstances surrounding the framing of the Constitution, I submit that it is unreasonable to conclude that “natural-born citizen” applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances, and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the Presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not.
Alas and alack, poor old Mario has no clothes
Bless you
It’s not easy to keep track of Mario’s follies. For a while I tried but I got bored… No real challenge but a lot of work…
Mario made a statement to the effect that home runs don’t count in soccer.
Not a very good analogy.
Better would be that he has lost the game without scoring a point, while the opposition (the Constitution and the truth) have run up a high score on the board. Now the game is over (in terms of the facts, although not, technically speaking, in the courts); and instead of acknowledging reality, Mario maintains that not only is there plenty of time left on the clock, he’s winning by a large margin.
Perhaps Mario is playing the wrong game? Poor guy…
Gesundheit.
Mario is just a guy with a bat and a ball and a football helmet.
Yep, Mario needs to fish or get off the pot.
Leaving the sports theme, but two of my all time favorite mixed metaphors:
Does the pope sh$t in the woods? and
He doesn’t know his elbow from a hole in the ground.
…and is well acquainted with Jack Daniels.
In Major Gaffe, Bachmann Confuses Ass, Hole in Ground
http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/06/28/in-major-gaffe-bachmann-confuses-ass-hole-in-ground/
Priceless.
Sorry Doc, I thought we were on the open post!
Ballantine asked: “Please show us a single court that ever said a person born on US soil was naturalized.”
I have something better than a court. I have the 1811 James McClure case which unquestionably shows that according to the James Madison Administration (remember that James Madison is the “Father of the Constitution), a child born in the United States to an alien father (British subject) was not born a “citizen of the United States. Rather, that child, only upon the father naturalizing during his years of minority and the child dwelling in the United States at the time of his father’s naturalization, became a naturalized “citizen of the United States” after his birth.
Hence, without question, James McClure, born in the United States to alien parents, was later naturalized to be a “citizen of the United States” after his birth. The early naturalization acts and the James McClure case, as treated by the James Madison Administration, are the smoking gun on what the Founders and Framers intended the “natural born Citizen” clause to mean. They clearly show without doubt that they also excluded from being a “natural born Citizen” any child that was born in the United States to alien parents.
Mario Apuzzo: “Penguins can fly.”
Rational Person: “That’s just stupid. Penguins aren’t built for flying. They’re built for swimming. And there are no known instances of a penguin ever flying, except as cargo on an airplane.”
Mario Apuzzo: “I have here a letter to the editor of a newspaper, dated 1923, from ‘Albert,’ which refers to ‘The Flying Penguin’ which sailed in 1921 from Portsmouth, England to South Africa. ‘Albert’ is obviously Albert Einstein, who knew all about the aerodynamics of penguins. This conclusively proves that penguins DO fly, and in fact, they are the ONLY birds that fly, as no reference was made to any other flying bird.”
Obviously, that is not intended to be an absolute representation, merely a commentary on the quality of Mario’s arguments.
In other words, nothing. Now you are misunderstanding McClure… Fascinating how you continue to move your goalposts.
This is getting so funny… Always the next promissory note but nothing to support the original question.
Your McClure follies have been exposed as such by John Woodman and others Mario. Again…
As Gorefan already explained
and this
Fail…
Sorry Mario but this is just becoming a bit embarrassing to watch…
I understand, I have looked at what is known about McClure and Mario’s comments should invite the Court to award some sanctions for such poorly founded assertions.
I cannot believe that Mario brings up the McClure case. If that is the smoking gun then Mario has been smoking something too strong…
There is nothing to support his much inflated claims. Come on Mario, show that your reading comprehension is not as bad as your musings suggest…
Getting a bit nervous Mario? Wednesday is the day…
So Mario, time to follow up on your foolish position and support it. I have shown several court rulings that contradict your frivolous argument. Time to support it with some references perhaps?
Or have you abandoned the argument but refuse to admit to it? That would make sense given some of your past behaviors.
BOGUS claim. The Court in Wong Kim Ark said:
“While, then, the naturalization of the father carries with it that of his minor children, and his declaration of intention relieves them from the preliminary steps for naturalization, and minors are allowed to count part of the residence of their minority on the whole term required, and are relieved from the declaration of intention, the statutes make no provision for formal declaration of election by children born in this country of alien parents on attaining majority.”
Mario has no evidence to support his claims. There is an article in a newspaper where an anonymous person makes claims that birth on soil does not confer US citizenship although others are mentioned in the article who disagree. Months later, McClure was handed a passport as he was considered a native citizen. Naturalization would not make one a native citizen.
Mario is fantasizing a bit. I believe it is called confirmation bias. If this is his smoking gun.. then he is in a lot of trouble… But we already knew this… And deep down I think Mario does as well..
Linda,
You quote Wong:
“While, then, the naturalization of the father carries with it that of his minor children, and his declaration of intention relieves them from the preliminary steps for naturalization, and minors are allowed to count part of the residence of their minority on the whole term required, and are relieved from the declaration of intention, the statutes make no provision for formal declaration of election by children born in this country of alien parents on attaining majority.”
This quote recognizes the naturalization statutes’ broad application, applying to both children born in and out of the United States and even saying that “naturalization of the father carries with it that of his minor children.” What it adds is that children born in the United States to alien parents did not have to make any declaration of election of U.S. or some other foreign citizenship upon reaching the age of majority. This does not mean that the naturalization statute did not apply to children born in the United States. Rather, the Court is here saying that the statute did not compel “formal declaration of election by children born in this country of alien parents on attaining majority.”
nbc,
I am sorry to tell you that your statements about the John McClure case are lies.
Well done.
Linda said:
“3. The “Founders and Framers” did not give numerous definitions for NBC, nor I have seen that claim here. The Founders and Framers did not define it at all (or we wouldn’t be having this discussion) as “natural born” was a common term in use centuries before the Constitution was written. As such, there was no need to define it in the Constitution, as all knew what it meant. Had they chosen to give a novel definition to an existing term, they could have easily done so.”
Founder and Justice James Wilson does not agree with you. Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson, signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, told us in 1791:
“English law has its roots in Anglo-Saxon customs, which were too firmly established to be completely broken by the Norman Conquest and still form the basis of their common law today. In 1068, having at last reduced the country to submission, William set to work to establish a Roman government on a firm and lasting basis. Roman law, the legal system of ancient Rome is now the basis of civil law, one of the main European legal systems.
***
I know that the term citizen is often applied to one of the more numerous party—to one of the people: and I shall be obliged to take the description of a citizen from the character which he supports as one of the people. But you will easily perceive, that the same person may, at different times, act or be viewed in different characters; and though his description be taken from one of them, the account of his duties and of his rights too may, on a particular occasion, be referred to the other. This I have chosen to do, rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification. Besides, the expression is frequently employed also in the sense in which I now use it. “Generally speaking,” says the great political authority, Aristotle, “a citizen is one partaking equally of power and of subordination.”
A citizen then—to draw his description as one of the people—I deem him, who acts a personal or a represented part in the legislation of his country. He has other rights; but his legislative I consider as his characteristic right. In this view, a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union: for the members of the house of representatives in the national legislature are chosen, in each state, by electors, who, in that state, have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. In this view, a citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen.
***
You will be pleased to hear, that, with regard to this as well as to many other subjects, we have renewed, in our governments, the principles and the practice of the ancient Saxons.”
We did not see anything written by Wilson which hints that a “citizen” was supposed to be analogous to a “subject.” Wilson said “rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification.” Here he told us that the people were familiar with the word “citizen” and so they chose it. He also told us that the Framers decided not to use “natural born subject” because they did not want its meaning to have further effect and did not want the people to think that it did. Hence, they chose and used a different phrase, “natural born citizen,” because it was a different phrase which was to have “a new signification.”
Feel free to show that this is the case my dear friend. I have looked at the case and none of your claims hold water.
But I do understand that when asked to support your case you often refuse to provide any more references or evidence.
Good luck on Wednesday when the Court gets to explore your musings.
And there goes Mario again, repeating his non-sensical claims. He cannot even make an original argument or go beyond quote mining. Mario is going around and around in circles, nervously chasing his tail.. No worries Mario, this will all be over in a few days, unless you expect to appeal to the Supreme Court.
Hilarious… Mario… You are a riot and I cam sure that the Court may come to appreciate you, if they have a sense of humor. If not… Well, there is always the check book.
Good luck Mario, we will be awaiting the dismissal with baited breath… As to potential issues like sanctions, well one can hope that justice is served here.
Well, at least you have become accustomed to having your case dismissed.
His b.s. on Minor alone is enough to make any sane jurist double over with laughter.
My opinion exactly.
And since Mario wouldn’t be doing ant of this unless he was handsomely (presumably) paid, then the next step is to ask who is bankrolling his battle.
Why can’t you stop lying. What kind of person keeps saying the Madison administration agreed with the anonymous letter when he has no evidence at all that such is the case and, in fact, the evidence points to place of birth being the only criteria. Why not try providing any evidence. You can’t, so you will just keep lying.
And you are going to keep lying aoubt Wilson as well. As I pointed out above in great detail, there is nothing Wilson said that remotely supports you. He said a citizen was someone with the right to vote. The provisions on Pennsylvania law you are quoting was from the Pennsylvania sufferage law which is in a footnote to the language you cite. It said parenbtage was only relevant to relieve one from the obligation of paying taxes if one parents did for those from 21 to 22.
“In elections by the citizens, every freeman of the age oftwenty-one years, having resided in the State two years next before theelection, and within that time paid a State or county tax, which shall havebeen assessed at least six months before the election, shall enjoy the rightsof an elector: Provided, That the sons of persons qualified asaforesaid, between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-two years, shall beentitled to vote, although they shall not have paid taxes.”
Are you really so stupid to not understand this? And Wilson surveys the citienship (i.e., voting) requirements of each state as I quoted above and no others said parentage was relevant in any manner. Again, it is simply lying to suggest Wilson though parentage was relevant to citizenship at all. Can you really not help yourself. You can’t make a substantive reponse to this, as wilson is clear as can be, so you will just keep reposting the same post over and over in an effort to really convince veryone how stupid you are.
Are champerty, barratry & maintenance crimes in NJ?
Folks: Do NOT listen to Mario, ballantine, nbc, Doc or any of the so-called “experts”. As I stated here many moons ago, the answer is simple: natural born citizen = citizen born naturally. This article decribes, in all the gory details (literally), the entire process.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/magazine/ina-may-gaskin-and-the-battle-for-at-home-births.html?ref=magazine
Of course, it is very unlikely that any of the current candidates are natural born citiizens, nor are any of the recent Presidents. So, the clause has to be considered suspended until one of the babies in the article reaches 35.
By which standard, Barack Obama Sr was a citizen of Hawaii, since he resided there for >2 years and undoubtedly at various times bought goods that were subject to state sales tax. He was later a citizen of Massachusetts.
So, according to James Wilson, Founder and Supreme Court Justice, Barack Obama, Jr. was the son of 2 citizens.
Game, set and match….
Often? I have never seen him provide anything to back up this claim, because there is no evidence to back up his claim. The Madison administration ceritied his citizenship only by stating his place of birth. To claim it said he was naturalized is delusional. All he can do is repeat his claim over and over. Another instance of Mario saying something stupid, being called on it and then doubling down on stupid rather than admitting he is wrong. We have seen it over and over. We saw it with his claims on travel ban to Pakistan, Jefferson’s statute, the self-serving paper from Ramsey and his misrepresentation of case after case. It will be the same with his Wilson claim as there is no ambiguity in the Pennsylvania law he is citing or the law of the other states he cites. Does’t matter as he will just double down.
Thanks, Dave.
Scientist,
Unfortunately for you, it does not work that easy. With the ratification of the Constitution, the states gave to the central government the exclusive power and right to naturalize persons. So Hawaii did not nor could it naturalize Obama Sr. under its own naturalization statute, let alone with a naturalization statute of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
El Putzo doesn’t realize when his chain is being pulled.
ballantine,
You tell us that Minor v. Happersett was all about voting and not at all about citizenship. Similarly, now you tell us that Supreme Court Justice James Wilson’s explanation on citizenship, in which he tells us that the Founders and Framers specifically did not choose the familiar clause “natural born subject” so as not to confuse the people and have to inform them that the clause would have a different meaning and so they choose a different clause, i.e., “natural born citizen,” with which the people were already familiar and which conveyed to the people a different meaning for who would be given the right to be elected President, was not about citizenship at all, but only about voting.
You also leave out that he said that a “citizen” not naturalized was an adult who was the cihld of a citizen.
Are you really that pathetic?
It does not say that an alien father’s naturalization applies to children born in the US, as children born in the US need no naturalization. It should be clear what the Court meant as it went on to say:
“That all children born within the dominion of the United States of foreign parents holding no diplomatic office became citizens at the time of their birth does not appear to have been contested or doubted until more than fifty years after the adoption of the Constitution, when the matter was elaborately argued in the Court of Chancery of New York and decided upon full consideration by Vice Chancellor Sandford in favor of their citizenship. Lynch v. Clark, (1844) 1 Sandf.Ch. 583.”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/case.html
In Lynch v Clark, the Court ruled “The term citizen, was used in the constitution as a word, the meaning of which was already established and well understood. And the constitution itself contains a direct recognition of the subsisting common law principle, in the section which defines the qualification of the President. “No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,” … The only standard which then existed, of a natural born citizen, was the rule of the common law, and no different standard has been adopted since. Suppose a person should be elected President who was native born, but of alien parents, could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the constitution? I think not.”
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/the-great-mother-of-all-natural-born-citizen-quotation-pages/
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18063999/Lynch-v-Clarke
Unfortunately for YOU, then Wilson’s statements regarding Pennsylvania citizenship are irrelevant to anything being discussed here.
By the way, are you an Italian citizen? I will keep asking until you repond…
Wilson does agree with me. They didn’t use “natural born subject” because they didn’t want the people to believe they were still subjects. They used “natural born citizen”, keeping the term “natural born”, which the people understan, but replacing subject with citizen, recognizing the change in status of the people to citizens.
ballantine,
Correction:
He also ignores that fact that Wilson said that a “citizen” was also a child who had reached the age of majority and who was the child of a “citizen.”
You don’t have to take his word, or anyone else’s, as the Court said in speaking of Minor “The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/case.html
Please note the Court did not call it a citizenship case, or a landmark case that defined NBC, they didn’t even call Minor an NBC, but called her a citizen.
Because, he is correct and you are lying (or a really bad lawyer). Do you need a refreshing on holding?
The decision was about voting rights and the discussion of citizenship was to illustrate the scope of their decision (applied to all). Your followers may swallow your made up story about history, but we do not.
You have already admitted that Wilson’s thoughts on Pennsylvania citizenship are irrelvant to US citiizenship. In fact, Brian Wilson’s thoughts on how he wishes they all could be California girls are more on point.
I wonder if Apuzzo and Corsi have considered that one of the results of the TeaTardParty’s agenda to erase the 20th century would be that Italians wouldn’t be considered White People.
Of course that is not what Wilson said. You are referring to where Wilson was pointing out the PA’s sufferage ruled allowed someone between the ages of 21 and 22 could vote even if thet didn’tsatisfy the obligation to pay taxes if their parents were citizens. If over 22, parentage was irrelevant to such right and as Wilson points out, was irrelvant in every other state. Look at the footnote of the language you are citing as if points to the actual sufferage provision which I quoted and in no way supports your delusion.
Yes, Wilson thought “subject” and “citizen” were different in that ctizens were people who had the right to vote. He never said citizen had to have citizen parents. Rather, he said US citizens were citizens of tthe states and tokld us state by state who were citizens. No one required citizen parents. And he never defined natural born citizen. He did define “alien” solely as one of foreign birth. Do you ever tire of doubling down on stupid?
It seems to me that Mario has likely seen instances in his legal practice where people who were guilty as sin continued to assert their innocence unrelentingly and with as much apparent conviction as those who were genuinely innocent — and were given the benefit of a doubt as a result.
In this case, however, we have four video cameras and eight eyewitnesses, three of whom know Mario personally, all of whom swear they saw him practicing law while under the influence, and none of his eighteen different alibis hold water. Therefore the only rational conclusion is that in addition to PLWUI, he is guilty of perjury as well.
Thomas Brown, the champion of American apple pie, joins the ranks of what I call a despicable Obot.
Linda,
You insist that Minor was all about voting and nothing about citizenship. On the contrary, in several cases that cited Minor, they recognized Minor as a case defining citizenship in the United States. In one case, the Court said that
“this court [Minor] held that the word ‘citizen’ is often used to convey the idea of membership in a nation, and, in that sense, women, if born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, have always been considered citizens of the United States, as much so before the adoption of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution as since.”
In Re Lockwood, 154 U.S. 116 (1894).
The other case is Wong Kim Ark. Wong Kim Ark also shows that Minor is not a case only about voting rights. Wong Kim Ark confirmed that Minor was a case about citizenship and not just about women’s right to vote. It cited and quoted Minor’s exact definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Here is what Wong Kim Ark said about the Minor decision as it relates to who may be “citizens” and who may be “natural-born citizens:”
“The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”
Wong Kim Ark, 679-81. Note that for the Minor Court to concluded that Virginia Minor was a “citizen,” it first defined a ‘natural-born citizen” and then found that she was a “natural-born citizen.”
So we can see that, apart from the many other cases that may have cited Minor v. Happesett as a citizenship case, Wong Kim Ark said that Minor decided the issue of whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen.” Again, in referring to Minor’s addressing the question of her citizenship, it said “[t]he decision in that case.” It said that Minor answered the question of whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen” in the affirmative, although it held that such citizenship status did not give her the right to vote. So there should not be any question that, even as the U.S. Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark instructs, Minor was a case not only about a woman’s right to vote, but as much a case about citizenship. Wong Kim Ark itself told us that Minor resolved a question about citizenship. Therefore, Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” which it gave in the context of resolving the question of whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen” is one of the holdings of the case and binding precedent.
Ballantine has more than once destroyed your claims and arguments with detailed references to legal and scholarly research. No wonder you think he be pathetic.
But then again, Ballantine does not have to resort to quote mining and poorly informed claims that are based on reading comprehension problems.
As I said, good luck on Wednesday my friend, let’s hope the Court is in a good mood.
This was all about voting… In context you should have realized that Wilson used a very specific definition which allowed a child born to a citizen, when reaching the age of 21 or 22 to vote without paying taxes.
Your reading comprehension skills are incredibly poor and when people correct you, you are unable to accept their corrections.
Good luck explaining that to the Court my friend. The time is ticking away and all you have are some quote mined, irrelevant statements like McClure?… And you call it a smoking gun?…
Come on Mario, at least pretend that you are putting some effort in all of this. Your clients deserve at least that.
Other than the fact that the Court in Minor never claimed to give a comprehensive definition but merely observed that there was little doubt that Virginia was a natural born citizen and that whether or not children born to alien parents were natural born was something they did not have to address.
The Court in WKA explored the full meaning of NBC and found it to mean born on soil, regardless of the status of the parents.
Anyone with a modicum of reading comprehension understands this. Surely the judges who have ruled President Obama natural born based on his birth on US soil correctly understood US v Wong Kim Ark. I guess in Mario’s limited world, all these judges, scholars all must be wrong. But then one may ask oneself, why would Mario have to resort to quote mining? Charles Gordon was Mario’s latest victim and Wilson was a victim or Mario’s clear inability to comprehend the meaning of his statement that a child born to a citizen and between the ages 21 and 22 who has not paid taxes yet, is a citizen in the sense that he is allowed to vote. Then there is McClure whose case has been misunderstood by Mario to such an extent that he is now unable to accept the corrections. There is NOTHING so far in the McClure case that supports Mario’s suggestions and the mere fact that the US Minister in Britain gave him a passport because of his native birth, lays to rest any foolishness on Mario’s part but no, Mario insists that this shows somehow that McClure became a citizen months after he was born even though all courts agree that a child born on US soil cannot be naturalized.
Such ignorance, such follies…
Keep digging Mario… It’s a long way to the NJ Court…
Yes, that’s what Wilson did say… But Mario is now unable to accept his mistake and he’d rather continue down a path which, like so many of the other paths he has chosen, will result in him looking rather foolish if he were to make this argument in open court. It’s already bad enough that he misrepresented Gordon’s position in his amicus brief for Tisdale, but the Court will be looking forward this time to hear Mario make his ‘case’ orally. There must be a reason why they decided to invite him to join them in their court room… His position on Minor alone should be sufficient to earn him some laughter. Courts have not only rejected Mario’s position but used some strong language to describe the arguments… I can only venture to guess how the Court in NJ will react.
Mario himself quoted Wilson and include the between 21 and 22 years statement, which caused me to question him about whether or not he had properly understood Wilson. When I finally found the reference, the context was clear and it revealed that, once again, Mario’s poor reading comprehension had tricked him.
I found it quite hilarious because I too have come to the conclusion that whenever Mario makes a claims X, the context in which the claim was made, will quickly reveal that the original claim made was NOT(X). So far, this simple formula, has accurately predicted quite a few instances, the latest two involve Wilson and McClure.
Fascinating… Such a simple formula captures so much of the ‘noise’ in Mario’s ‘arguments’. And it does help explain why Mario has become quite reluctant to provide the necessary references to his claims that would allow one to verify the accuracy.
Linda,
Lynch v. Clark, 1 Sandf.Ch. 583 (1844) is only a state law case on inheritance rights in New York. It does not control on the constitutional meaning of an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
Lynch recognized the existence of the early naturalization statutes. But it chose, without reasonable explanation, to ignore them as applicable to children born in the United States. The reasoning that the court gave for its interpretation of those statutes has no merit. Lynch was not able to come to grips with the early naturalization acts.
There the court said regarding the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, 1804 that even though Congress did not say that the clause regarding the children born to aliens becoming naturalized when their parents so naturalize applied only to children born abroad, the general language chosen by Congress was over inclusive and not necessary. Hence, the court simply ignored what Congress wrote. I guess Lynch court knew better than Congress what language it should have chosen.
The Lynch court even went further. It said that the meaning of the text of these earlier naturalization statutes relating to children would be decided by how Congress dealt with widows in citizenship statutes in 1804. The Lynch court justified its finding that the naturalization statutes meant to apply only to children born abroad by arguing that Congress in 1804 did not distinguish between U.S. citizen widows and alien widows so therefore there should not be a distinction between children born in the U.S. and children born abroad. The court continued that it should be presumed that these earlier Congresses were referring only to children born abroad just like the 1804 Congress meant to refer only to alien widows who would also have been born abroad. But on what reasoned basis are we to bind Congress in 1790, 1795, and 1802 when addressing children with what Congress did in 1804 for widows? Additionally, the Lynch court failed to address the doctrine in 1804 that wives took on the same citizenship as their husbands. The old doctrine of unity of husband and wife provided that whatever citizenship the husband had, his wife had. If the husband was an alien, the wife would also be an alien. And if the husband was a U.S. citizen, his wife would also be a U.S. citizen. There was therefore no need for Congress to distinguish in its statutes between U.S. citizen widows and alien widows, for a widow simply had the same citizenship status of her deceased husband. So the Lynch court gave a completely invalid argument for how it interpreted the early naturalization statues passed by Congress. And now you, following in the footsteps of the Lynch court, give a completely invalid argument for how to interpret Jefferson’s citizenship statutes.
The Lynch decision could have had force within New York to resolve the inheritance issue with which the court was faced, but it surely was not any binding authority on how the Founders and Framers defined a “natural born Citizen.”
Furthermore, the Lynch decision was even overruled by the New York legislature. At that time, New York did not have any statute that defined citizenship and so the court applied the old English common law. The New York Legislature in 1860 overruled Lynch:
Political Code of the State of New York (1860)
Sec. 5. The citizens of the state are:
1. All persons born in this state and domiciled within it, except the children of transient aliens and of alien public ministers and consuls;
2 All persons born out of this state who are citizens of the United States and domiciled within this state.
Lynch’s parents were “transient aliens.” Hence, under this statute, Lynch would not have been a citizen of New York. Before the Civil Rights Act of 1866, a person was a citizen of the United States only if he or she were first a citizen of a State. If the children of transient aliens were not even considered citizens of a state, they surely would not have been considered “natural born” Citizens of the United States.
Finally, Lynch’s definition of a “natural born” Citizen was also overruled by the U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875), which said that a “natural-born citizen” was a child born in the country to U.S. citizen parents. Lynch had said that parental citizenship was not relevant. The last time that I looked, the U.S. Supreme Court trumps a state court decision. So it looks like Vattel was right and Lynch was wrong.
“It is well settled that those born in the United States are considered natural born citizens.” – Tisdale v. Obama, Eastern District of Virginia.
“Contrary to Plaintiff’s assertion, Minor v. Happersett does not hold otherwise.” Allen v. Arizonia Democratic Party.
nbc,
All you can do is continue with your little sophomoric remarks. You have no substance behind you, my friend.
ROTFL.. And yet in order to find out if a Lynch was a citizen, the court observed the existence of two kinds, just like US v WKA: born on soil (natural-born) and natural-ized. By virtue of her birth on soil, even though her parents were there only on a temporary sojourn, the court found her to be a citizen by birth (aka natural born citizen).
The NY legislature may have overruled the findings in Lynch but that has little impact on Lynch’s Federal Citizenship. Poor Mario…
And Lynch shows the foundation of citizenship continued to be based on jus soli, not Mario’s international law based jus sanguinis.
It may not have been binding but it has been the foundation to show how natural born was a concept found in common law and since the definition of NBC was left undefined in the Constitution, the courts have found that its meaning is to be found in common law of the days, which clearly was based on English Common Law.
Poor Mario there is still no Founder who support his position and we all know Madison’s position to be contrary…. The mere fact that the founders found it necessary to pass a statute extending citizenship to children born abroad to US citizens, indicates that they too did not believe in jus sainguinis being the common law….
So clear.
Bold faced lie indeed.
All parties had already conceded that Virginia Minor was a citizen, and the Court itself stated the question before it as follows:
The question is presented in this case, whether, since the adoption of the fourteenth amendment, a woman, who is a citizen of the United States and of the State of Missouri, is a voter in that State, notwithstanding the provision of the constitution and laws of the State, which confine the right of suffrage to men alone.
Every significant point Mario has made about Minor has been clearly refuted. I myself wrote a total of five articles on the case. And yet he does what he always does, which is to continue reasserting things shown to be false, without having been able to refute the demonstration that they are false.
All this does is further establish Mr. Apuzzo’s reputation.
Northland10,
Tisdale in on appeal in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals.
An Arizona decision is not binding in New Jersey.
He is, which is why your question is being ignored.
Sef or is that Sefth,
You said that I do not realize when my chain is being pulled.
So you admit that what Scientist wrote is utter idiocy.
Well then, show me the recent court rulings that have agreed with you so far.
misha,
Mr. Obama, are you a “natural born Citizen?”
He is not, which is why he has ignored the question.
Does Willard Mitt Romney have unicorn DNA?
Oh Really?
It appears he took and oath stating his is qualified and thus, NBC (though, why it says Arizona on a Virginia form, I am not sure, unless it is used in multiple places and somebody forgot to change the state name).
Mr. Apuzzo, President Obama, has not ignored the question, you ignored the answer.
John Woodman,
Your reading comprehension fails to capture the fact that in Minor the parties conceded that Virginia Minor was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment, but that the Court did not accept that concession. The Court only stated what the question was as presented to it by the parties. The Court did not say that that was the question that it was going to address. Rather, the Court sought to prove on its own that Virginia Minor did not need the Fourteenth Amendment to be a “natural-born citizen” and therefore a “citizen” and it did just that. It showed that since the Founding, under “common law,” with which the Framers were well familiar and which we know given the Court’s inclusion of citizen parents in its citizenship formula could only have been American “common law” and not English “common law,” any child that was born in a county to citizen parents was a “natural-born citizen” and therefore also a “citizen.”
Northland10,
The question is whether Mr. Obama is a “natural born Citizen,” not whether he is “qualified.” Given that people like you think that a “citizen’ has the same meaning as a “natural born Citizen,” telling me that he said he is “qualified” without him telling me that he is a “natural born Citizen” does not help.
Furthermore, please provide for me one quote or citation from any source over the life of Mr. Obama wherein he as unequivocally said that he was an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
Hey silly troll.. read again:
The US constitutional requirements are, 35 years of age or more, resident 14 years, and NBC. Are you saying, by only stating he fulfilled the requirements he did not state he was NBC? Are you going to claim next that he is not old enough because he did not state he was older than 35?
Do you really expect me to take you seriously when you make omissions like this? Sorry, I am not the foolish posters like MichaelN on your site who willfully neglect ” For if enemies should come into the realm” from the Calvin Case.
Furthermore, please provide for me one quote or citation from any source over the life of Willard Mitt Romney wherein he has unequivocally said that he does not have unicorn DNA, and is therefore an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
And furthermore, please provide for me one quote or citation from any source over the life of Glenn Beck wherein he has unequivocally said that he did not rape and murder a girl in 1990.
The Court only stated what the question was as presented to it by the parties. The Court did not say that that was the question that it was going to address.
Still, citizenship wasn’t the central question in Minor. It WAS the central question in Wong Kim Ark, and you ignore what that case had to say about citizenship (using the phrase “natural born” literally dozens of times) and insist that the binding precedent set in WKA doesn’t count.
It showed that since the Founding, under “common law,” with which the Framers were well familiar and which we know given the Court’s inclusion of citizen parents in its citizenship formula could only have been American “common law” and not English “common law,” any child that was born in a county to citizen parents was a “natural-born citizen” and therefore also a “citizen.”
You’ve produced no evidence whatsoever to establish that the English common law was not (at the least) included in the Minor Court’s mention of that phrase; and have no answer to the analysis in three entire articles I wrote that show decisively that there’s no basis whatsoever for your claim that the definition of “natural born citizen” came from “American common law” or the “Law of Nations” — which never once mentioned that term or any term like it.
Qoting Wilson’s irrelevant statements on Pennsylvania citizenship was idiocy.
In his declaration for candidacy filed in Arizona in 2008 he not only said he was qualified to be President, but swore to it. If you believe that being qualified for President doesn’t require being a natural born citiizen then what is the point of your court case, your web site or you?
In fact, let’s simply agree that being a natural born citizen is irrelevant to presidential qualifications and go on our ways.
Are you an Italian citiizen?
mario,
i cannot help but find bemusing your refusal to face the facts that your constitution and law supports the position opposed to yours. this has been shown time and time again during the last nearly 4 years in many courts and by numerous constitutional scholars, but still you refuse to come to terms with the huge monolith of support under the law and constitution staring you in the face and continue to wave minor around like some kind of religeous relic hoping to change what is established by some miracle.
sorry old chap, but the law doesn’t work that way as you should realise considering your chosen profession.
the bottom line – in my laymans opinion, take a jar of vaseline along to your next case, as i suspect you will need it.
I’ll leave you to Smith v. Alabama (1888) for the concept of American Common Law. Here’s two quotes from the opinion.
“There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes.”
“There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
So, no common law of the United States that is distinct from the Common Law of England. And the Constitution is framed in the language of English Common Law, and are to be read in the light of its history. Point, set, match.
So Mario, looking forward to when, not if, when the court acts the SAME as last time and requires you AGAIN to grovel and whine when they slap you with an order to show cause why you should not be sanctioned.
You remember that one don’t you Mario, one of your finest moments in failure, Kerchner v Obama.
Trouble is, dont think the court will be as lenient this time will they?
Remember the order…?
================================
On July 2, 2010, this Court filed an Order to Show Cause directing Appellants’counsel to show cause in writing why he should not be subject to an Order pursuant toF.R.A.P. 38 for pursuing a frivolous appeal.
In response, Mario Apuzzo filed a 95-pagestatement that contains, inter alia, numerous statements directed to the merits of this Court’s opinion, which the Court finds unpersuasive.
His request that the Court reconsider its opinion is denied, as the appropriate procedure for that issue is through a Petition for Rehearing.
However, based on Mr. Apuzzo’s explanation of his efforts to research the applicable law on standing, we hereby discharge the Order to Show Cause.
No one here has ever said that, I would appreciate it if you would not continue to make such false statements. It only serves to get people irritated and to tarnish your already slim reputation in this community.
The Tea Party Is a Religious Movement:
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/scott-galupo/2011/08/17/the-tea-party-is-a-religious-movement?s_cid=rss:scott-galupo:the-tea-party-is-a-religious-movement
Nothing quite replaces actually watching Mr. Apuzzo in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwmfisorUcc&list=UUvNcV_vN3BWeFKG1HwL5-tw&index=1&feature=plcp
Start listening to Mr. Apuzzo about 7:08, to about 9:00:
“…The Law Of Nations” actually became adopted by the United States on a national level, became actual Common Law, and that is why Minor says that the Common Law defines a natural born citizen”
So this is what Mr. Apuzzo says is the Common Law of the United States:
http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/vattel/index.html
Well now. If I was feeling alone and blue, and didn’t know what to do, if I had a Mario Apuzzo doll that could make proclamations like that whenever I pulled its string I think I might just perk right up. I’d pay a dollar or two for something like that.
What an amazing piece of dodging my question. You wrote a whole paragraph and never answered it once. Truly you are the epitemy of a bad lawyer.
I will ask my question again.
Question #1:
Is your posiition that we have all been wrong about the definition of Natural Born Citizen for the last 100 years or more?
Because we all grew up knowing that anyone born in the U.S. is a natural born citizen- have all Americans just been wrong?
Question #2:Or are you arguing that what I was taught by my conservative civics teacher was an anomaly?
And new Question #3: When did you ‘realize’ that Natural Born Citizen required two parent citizens?
It is truly astonishing the degree to which Mr. Apuzzo will go to twist words. This is one of his classics:
As Minor explained, it has never been doubted what a “natural born Citizen” is.
He thus takes a statement that there was never any doubt that a person who had both qualifications A and B was a natural born citizen, and twists it to claim that it says that a natural born citizen is ONLY someone who has both qualifications A and B, if a person ONLY has qualification A or qualification B that person is absolutely NOT a natural born citizen, and there has never been any doubt about that.
I have never seen anyone match the stereotype of a lying lawyer to this degree.
And Question #4: If it is true that citizen parents are required to be a natural-born citizens, and there are only 2 types of citizens: NBC & naturalized, why is it that a birth certificate proving birth in the U.S. is totally adequate to prove citizenship. No one is ever asked to provide proof that their parents were citizens, or their parents, or their parents … Please provide evidence of even a single individual who was born in the U.S. under jurisdiction who was naturalized.
I might add that he does the above without being able to show any real authority from all of history that agrees with him, and directly against quotations from literally dozens of legal authorities (including the US Supreme Court) and hundreds of other books and educational authorities which directly refute his claim.
Here’s the ultimate falacy, its called denying the antecedent. In logical terms it’s the following:
IF A, then B.
NOT A
THEREFORE NOT B.
Now, substitute the following:
A: Queen Elizabeth is an American Citizen
B: Queen Elizabeth is a Human Being
So, if Queen Elizabeth, then she is a human being (obviously true, since all American Citizens are human beings).
Queen Elizabeth is not an American Citizen. (also true)
Therefore Queen Elizabeth is not a human being. (I knew there was something fishy about her)
Logical fallacy 101.
Now, take it with a different set.
A: Barack Obama was born to 2 citizen parents.
B: Barack Obama is a Natural Born Citizen.
If Barack Obama was born to 2 citizen parents, then he is a Natural Born Citizen.
Barack Obama was not born to 2 citizen parents.
Therefore Barack Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen.
Same logical fallacy. The second is the crux of the argument that Mario Apuzzo is making. The first shows why it’s a logical fallacy.
The New York Legal Observer describes this case as “Alienage—Citizenship by Birth in the United States, Though of Alien Parents Temporarily Residing Here” It is not described as an inheritance case. At the time in NY, one had to be a citizen in order to inherit property. This was a citizenship case, as no one disputed Lynch was otherwise an heir.
“In conclusion, I find no doubt but that Julia Lynch was a citizen of the United States when Thomas Lynch died.”…
http://books.google.com/books?id=ERgvAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA236#v=onepage&q&f=false
Contrast that with Minor decision. The Court ruled that the Constitution did not give anyone the right to vote, so prohibitions against women voting were not unconstitutional.
“Being unanimously of the opinion that the Constitution of the United States does not confer the right of suffrage upon anyone, and that the constitutions and laws of the several states which commit that important trust to men alone are not necessarily void, we
Affirm the judgment.”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/88/162/case.html
A Supreme Court case would of course overrule a state court, but Minor declined to rule on birthright citizenship (“for the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts”) and WKA quotes the Lynch case in supports of its decision.
I ask you again, do you base your two-parent theory on anything from the 20th century or later?
If he doesn’t keep up the lies and smears, he won’t get paid.
The Urban Dictionary has an interesting list of entries for the term “paid liar” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=paid%20liar There’s probably room to add El Putzo, Esq.
Wow, you don’t even realize what Minor said. That she was a native born citizen was conceded in the original pleadings and listed as a stipulated fact of the case. No one ever said below or in the Supreme court that she was a 14th Amendment citizen. Minor’s argument if you actually did some research was that she was a citizen under the 14th Amendment and that such citizenship granted her the right to vote under the privileges and immunities clause. Waite responded that women had always been citizens, that such citizenship had never included the privilege of voting and hence citizenship under the 14th Amendment did not include the privilege to vote. Such is the rationale of the case for someone who can read case law. The discussion of natural born citizenship was one of five different examples offered to show that women had always been citizens. He wasn’t talking about Virginia Minor as he never called her natural born and the status of her parents were not even in the record. Did you not notice that Waite goes on page after page providing other examples of women always being citizens that in no way apply to Minor such as the homestead act and naturalization acts? Since women always being citizens was central to his argument, one can say such point was part of the holding. However, as Waite says himself, he did not need to address the parentage issue the establish women were always citizens and he expressly stated he would not address such issue. Any such discussion is dicta to the extent he actually said anything. However, he did not address the issue. Accordingly, it is simply a lie to say Waite said one needed citizen parents to be an NBC, that it was never doubted what a natural born citizen was or that the doubts he was referring to was about a citizenship other than natural born citizenship. Such is why no one has ever cited Minor on the issues of whether children of aliens were natural born as he expressly declined to address such issue.
Now try going back and read all the clear, unambiguous quotes provided from Wong Kim Ark and later cases and try to learn something. And, Justice Gray did approvingly cite Lynch v. Clark which talked about US citizenship, not New York citizenship, which means the supreme court agreed with its analysis. Duh.
dunstvangeet,
There is only one definition of a “natural born Citizen.” The Founders and Framers only had one in mind. There has always just been one in our history. Hence, I am not denying any antecedent. The conditions born in the country to citizens parents are both necessary and sufficient constituent conditions. They are of the “if and only if” quality.
Hence, the fallacy is yours not mine in how you interpret the Founders’ and Framers’ intent in including the “natural born Citizen” clause as part of presidential eligibility and in how you read Minor.
Simply stated, the clause does not have all these definitions just floating around and to be found whenever it may be politically convenient to find a new one and apply it for a desired result.
2008
Humans have opposable thumbs.
Lemurs have opposable thumbs.
Therefore, you are a lemur.
And Birther Queen Taitz. Solid company of pandering, nut ball bigots and hucksters.
Sefth,
I see that you have educated yourself well in the nature of your employment.
Ain’t English fun! He has no comprehension, whatsoever.
It’s got to be an act. No one can possibly be this stupid or willfully ignorant. And really bad acting at that. But the real fun will be the ass kicking he’ll get again in court where they won’t suffer the fool.
Unquestionably.
Au contraire, he is the epitome of an excellent DWI lawyer.
As it was not in the beginning, neither now, nor ever shall be…
Amen.
I can’t help but notice the quotes you provided referencing the Court in Minor failed to use the term “natural born citizen” or credit the Court with defining that term, so I remain unconvinced.
Do you have any court decision from the 20th century that supports your two-parent theory?
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.: You insist that Minor was all about voting and nothing about citizenship. On the contrary, in several cases that cited Minor, they recognized Minor as a case defining citizenship in the United States. In one case, the Court said that…
I wonder if there is a performance clause in his contract.
Of course not. It was invented in 2008 by Leo Donofrio.
Here’s what I would like to see – A state pass a personhood law. Then, a pregnant woman alone in her car drives in the HOV lane. She is stopped, and given a summons.
Then, her lawyer would say with a straight face, ‘Your Honor, my client was not alone in her car. She is pregnant, and therefore the car had two occupants.’
The lawyer would be Mario.
How does your Black’s Law Dictionary define “natural born citizen”? Mine says “A person born within the jurisdiction of a national government.” Not a word about who their parents are!
Of, course, this is all ridiculous. I have never read or even heard about anyone demanding the BC’s or naturalization records of the parents of our presidents, which of course would be necessary if what you claim had merit. In fact, prior to 2008, I don’t know of any candidate who published his BC, much less those of his parents.
Did you use a ouija board to contact them? Because none of them ever wrote a damn thing on the subject. At the last seance I attended someone mentioned your name to James Madison. I can’t print his response, but it involved you and an equine animal.
Probably. And since he proudly debases himself peddling birther bigot b.s., his standards and limits must be pretty close to non-existent.
I wonder if Mario bills his clients for the time he spends here. I also wonder if he banks offshore, like Romney.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/image27.png ?
He hears special voices that even a Reagan appointed, conservative Supreme Court Justice apparently can’t.
“All of our Presidents have, to date, been born in the 50 states. Notably, President Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, and so is clearly a natural born citizen.
– US Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor (retired)
Seamus: ‘I bark at Banclays.’
Now in Philly: “Barclays is committed to meeting the needs of wealthy clients and those aspiring to become wealthier.”
1735 Market St # 3900 Philadelphia, PA 19103 http://www.barclayswealth.com/
Any bets on what his excuse will be when he inevitably loses again? The reaction of the birther bigots in the peanut gallery is far too predictable.
I should have bought more cheese futures. There is going to be a serious shortage with all of the whine from the Birthers.
New entry in Black’s Law:
Mario Apuzzo– see fraud, shyster, demagogue, charlatan, perjurer, vexatious litigant, court jester, prevaricator
Mario may consider this as preparation time but it’s a two edged sword as he, at least ethically has to inform the court of any errors in his arguments, and since people have pointed out some quite outrageous ones, one can but hope that Mario takes his duty to the court seriously.
Of course, the mere fact that Mario is still arguing the Minor case as being precedential, is sufficient for a Court to find his arguments not only frivolous but also sanctionable.
Already one judge has expressed his concerns in a case involving Strunk
Writing about Mario’s musings the Judge observed that
And of course Mario did misrepresent the Judge in saying that he had accepted Obama to be born in Hawaii, when the Judge only assumed this when ruling on Mario’s novel but meritless arguments about who is a natural born citizen.
Mario’s reading comprehension once again shows itself to be atrocious. But that should not be an excuse when people have clearly pointed out to Mario that he was wrong. I wonder to what extent the Court will be amused by this.
President Obama signed a sworn letter to the Arizona Secretary of State that he was a Natural Born Citizen. Similarly, the Department of Health has concluded that President Obama by virtue of his birth is a natural born citizen as well.
The Judge in your own case has accepted that, assuming President Obama is born on US soil, he indeed is a natural born citizen regardless of the status of his father. Thus while he may not have ruled on the issue of the location of birth, he has fully rejected your foolish argument. And he has not been the only judge to do so either.
It looks like the gang here is spent. Just a lot of worthless chatter now. Looks like we are done here.
Actually, you are denying the antecedent if you are using Minor to argue. Minor said, “If someone is born to citizen parents in the United States, they are a Natural Born Citizen.”
Then you’re using that to state that because Barack Obama was not born to citizen parents, he’s not a Natural Born citizen. It’s a classic case of denying the antecedent.
IF A, then B.
NOT A
THEREFORE NOT B.
If Queen Elizabeth is an American Citizen, then she is a Human Being.
Queen Elizabeth is not an American Citizen
Therefore Queen Elizabeth is not a human being.
Classic case of denying the antecedent.
Not to mention that the Supreme Court has already ruled that there is no American Common Law that is different from the Common Law of England at the time of the Revolution. Therefore, the “common law” cannot be referring to something in American Common Law, that is not in English Common Law.
Furthermore, the Supreme Court also said that terms in the constitution were constructed in the terminology of English Common Law. Therefore, why would the founders take a phrase that isn’t actually found in Vattel’s writing (the original translation that put “Natural Born” in there happened 2 years after the Constitution was written), and redefine it to mean the exact opposite without explicitly saying so in the constitution. Your secret meanings of the constitution hold no water with any court.
Like I said, Point, Set, Match.
Have fun in court, Mario. All the words you traded here won’t help you there.
Every poor loser in court has “something better than a court”, Mario. Before you know it, you and your hapless birther clones will have “something better” than 100 courtroom defeats.
An administration’s reaction to a convoluted immediately-post-revolutionary-case like that of McClure would automatically be suspect in it’s implications for later interpretation as establishing a “rule”. Indeed the letter’s anonymous author, even if it was Madison, declared a reasonable man could disagree with him on his conclusions about McClure’s circumstance. But having no relevant judicial authority to cite, YOU vault over the judiciary’s right to interpret the Constitution and YOU try to tell us what the mush of the McClure case “unquestionably shows” and how it is “without question” the “smoking gun”!
Smoking gun? It’s a quote-mining loser’s desperate substitute for a smoking gun – a sick-shooter that retrospectively fired nothing but your tiresome bullet points out of the mouths of the Founders and Framers, styled by YOU as showing “clearly (and) without doubt” , what they intended the Constitution to mean. If quotes from Madison inform of us of the truth relating to this citizenship issue, it wouldn’t be your letter-to-the-editor drawn inference of what the executive branch’s interpretation was during his administration. It would be Madison’s quote from the Senate’s [House of Representatives. Doc] judicially cast administrative hearing wherein they seated Mr. Smith, during which hearing Madison declared:
“It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other. “
Every fair-minded American will take the literal sense of what James Madison actually publically stated contrary to your self-serving inference about what he (if indeed it was Madison writing at all) “must have meant” writing unaccountably under a pseudonym.
Humans exhibit the capacity to arbitrarily persist in disputing issues ad infinitum. Civil societies have necessarily developed governmental mechanisms that allow disputes to be settled legally – by imposing rules that end the perpetual disputes that could potentially paralyze some critical function of government. Thus we have the arena of the Law, where generally in our Republic, the judiciary’s interpretation of the Constitution, legislation, and previous judicial opinions settles our disagreements by pronouncements of what the relevant law is.
Their resulting official opinion becomes the current legal truth and if we disagree, we are legally wrong until a later judiciary (or Congress when it comes to certifying the results of a Presidential election) agrees with our different conclusion.
This differs from our private disputes and distinctly personal arguments wherein we may each make definitive pronouncements about each other’s ethics and motives which would seem to require mind-reading ability. You can call me an Obot and I can call you an insincere defender of the Constitution, and we both in reality leave it to the impressions that readers here have gleaned from their previous exposure to our writing or activities, to pass judgment on whether I mindlessly support Obama or whether your evolving attack on Obama is reasonably characterized as a mere byproduct of your heartfelt defense of the Constitution.
No judicial function of government is dedicated to settling the differences in our personal opinions about each other and observers may declare either, neither, or both of us “the winner”.
But when we disagree about a question of law, our opinions and conclusions have no legal significance, and especially when we state our own opinion contrary to that expressed by the judiciary, including our personal opinion of what the judiciary’s previously stated opinion actually means, and how it may bear on a legal question we are still disagreeing about, we currently would be legally wrong, period. Which is where you find yourself now on this issue – wrong!
Complicating your error, the notion that you are smarter than the vast majority of authorities on this issue is simply obnoxious puffery. You’re the usurper here, trying to assume the Judiciary’s Constitutional right to interpret the Constitution. As John Bingham pointed out, the Constitution gives no private citizen the judicial power to definitively interpret the law.
That includes definitively interpreting what previous Supreme Court Decisions precisely mean as they bear on a particular issue. In that regard, you are particularly obnoxious. You do not say that “if my legal interpretation of all the facts which I feel determine the legal reality of this issue are correct, then Obama is only a putative President and would be an usurper – but I am after all only a private citizen making that argument so he is, until the courts and Congress Constitutionally determine otherwise, the legally elected and Constitutionally eligible President of the United States.”
Instead, you state your opinion of his status as though it is a legal fact. You say he IS ONLY a putative President. You declare he IS ineligible. That makes you currently, legally mistaken. Contrast that legally reality with the one in which a court has told you repeatedly that you are wrong and your arguments are frivolous. They are currently legally correct in declaring that you are wrong and unlike your volunteered opinion, their opinion is empowered and legitimated by their Constitutional authority to determine and make such a pronouncement.
You compound your unseemly little-spoiled-legal-brat attitude by violating Vattel’s admonition of the centerpiece of responsible citizenship for someone who has had the chance to apply for all layers of appeal – that those who seek the judgment of the courts must be willing to accept and abide by that judgment. No, Mario is too smart and too special to have to abide by the decision of the courts – he can’t be “wrong” – no! Instead, everybody who disagrees with his legal opinion especially a disagreeing court is “wrong”.
Your only contribution to “the Universe of Ideas” has been a constellation of specious legal arguments, in which you are not only every star, but at the same time, profess to having a privileged perspective, objectively remote enough to guarantee that the image of a noose for Obama’s Presidency that results from connecting up your dots results from Constitutional truths instead of your hatred for the first Black President.
You didn’t enter this arena to protect the Constitution by the most supportable theory of Presidential Eligibility – your arguments change in order to stalk this President and you throw in anything you can Trump up to damage him politically.
You don’t fool us – you don’t believe your own arguments any more than you believe in our way of government when it correctly and Constitutionally labels you “wrong” . That reveals you to be an anarchist, a particularly sadsack anarchist, whose unremarkable career can only be rescued from obscurity by something extreme like taking down a President. But surely there was some satisfaction in those decades of not personally choosing heads of state while cloaking yourself in ad hoc judicial robes? Could it be that decades of helping drunks get back behind the wheel to endanger our children had lost its thrill?
Few attorneys of the many I know, follow your legal hijinks but as I am known to keep abreast of Birther madness, three have asked in effect, “who the devil is Mario Apuzzo?” I routinely refer them to your website, since they are not among the low-information voters who will be confused or misled by your drivel. The usual eventual reaction to you is eye-rolling – after the first few years they say the professional fascination to them of eccentric “know-it-all” pro se cases (the company in which your bizarre campaign is viewed) wears thin. I don’t help by generally describing you as a would-be technical Presidential assassin – a Lee Harvey Oswald without the rifle or the courage.
But the “peer reaction” I found most insightful succinctly compared and contrasted you to the one and lowly Orly Taitz. He said of your legal misdirection, “No lawyer behaves this way unless he was already a laughing stock among his peers to begin with!” and, exquisitely, about Orly’s legal misadventures, “No lawyer behaves this way!”
Mario Apuzzo: GIGO
Mario trolls for clients in Filene’s sub-Basement.
How about a quick count of the number of friends/relatives who have been killed/maimed/etc by drunk drivers during our lives. 3 for me (~40 year time frame).
Mario
Remember to take a copy of the Wong Kim Ark decision with you this time. It might just come up again. 😉 I have to say your performance before Judge Masin was beneath even my low expectations for you. It was a complete embarrassment. I guess that is what happens when you have no facts.
I don’t know Mr. Apuzzo’s background on the Internet, but my online experience goes back to the early online services: Bix, American People/Link, Compuserve, Delphi and Portal; to dial-up message boards (BBS); and Internet Relay Chat and USENET. The exit line below is classic for someone making a proud face while turning tail and running. I’m saying not that’s what we have here, but that’s what I think it is based on what I have seen so many times before.
The loser tries one more time to valiantly claim the high ground by declaring when the conversation is over. I guess it’s an ego thing. Personally, when I’m wrong, I like to admit it — good for personal growth. Apuzzo, representing a client as he does, doesn’t have that option. Better in his case to just quietly fade away rather than call attention to his exit, that elicited a comment like mine.
The Alexandra Herald reveals four opinions:
American Minister in London
American Minister in Paris
Mr. John Rodman
Publius
Evenly divided.
Publius also says this about the law of Virginia:
“The law of Virginia, of 1792, does – for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen”
The 1792 act also had this provision:
“And also all children wheresoever born, whose fathers or mothers are or were citizens at the time of the commonwealth, shall be deemed citizens of this Commonwealth”
Compare that to Jefferson’s 1779 act:
“and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise, whose mother was, a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father, if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother, shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth”
According to Mario “wheresoever born” is the key and means Virginia’s laws used jus sanguinis. But Publius says that Virginia laws are jus soli.
Indeed, it does appear that Mario has nothing new to say. So, yes, I agree, with your theories having been bounced by various courts, and nothing new forthcoming, all that remains is having a good laugh at your expense. Someday, you’ll take the hint and go home, but, until then …. LOL!
60 Minutes – DWI: Is It Murder?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5205158n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox
A classmate, and a great-uncle. He survived Treblinka, and was killed by a drunk driver.
Benji Franklin is one bloated, self-righteous individual.
Dave B.
I don’t know how your wife handles you, but you are really cheap.
ballantine,
I almost forgot to get back to you on Justice James Wilson. Your argument that Wilson was only concerned with voting and not about defining citizenship is as absurd as your position that Minor was only about voting and not citizenship.
What I quoted from Wilson on his definition of citizenship comes from his lectures as professor of law from 1790 to 1792. These lectures are found in a series of volumes edited by James DeWitt Andrews, entitled The Works of James Wilson (Chicago 1896). The quote that I provided is found in Volume II. The material may be found in Chapter XI, page 272, entitled, Of Citizens and Aliens. http://books.google.com/books?id=g2uvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=to+use+a+known+phrase+in+a+new+signification+James+Wilson&source=bl&ots=yHHUlAtLGv&sig=yTG4-bRJNSj5QsLXgkEQEgXrZpI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HLfDT5y1B4X76gHgu93RCg&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=to%20use%20a%20known%20phrase%20in%20a%20new%20signification&f=false
Too bad, my friend, the chapter is not about voting, but rather citizens and aliens. There is discussion about what a citizen is in the new republic. There is also discussion about what aliens are. I did not see anything there that suggests as you do that Justice Wilson’s comments had to do with voting and not with citizenship.
And do not forget to visit Note A in the Appendix of Volume II, a note written by editor, James DeWitt Andrews, where we find the following information. On your claim that the Founders and Framers defined a “natural born Citizen” the same as the English defined a “natural born subject,” do not let Chief Justice Jay and Mr. Andrews hear you say such a thing. You might want to consider this, which is found in this note:
“Chief Justice Jay, in Chisholm v. Ga. 2 Dall. 472, says that, ‘the feudal idea runs through the jurisprudence of England. No such ideas obtain here. At the revolution the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereign without subject (unless the African slaves among us may be so called), and have none to govern but themselves. The citizens of America are equal as fellow- citizens and as joint tenants in the sovereignty.’”
Id. at 572.
People of the United States and citizens “are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing. They both describe the political body, who according to our republican institutions, form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the government through their representatives. They are what we familiarly call the sovereign people, and every citizen is one of this people, and a constituent member of this sovereignty.”
Id.
Again your bogus arguments are unmasked by the light of truth.
And you still couldn’t answer my questions…..
Guess its easier to argue arcane legal theories than the obvious anomaly of why everyone in the U.S. has a different understanding of who is a natural born citizen than you do.
Said Mario Apuzzo while looking in the mirror.
Why Mario, I didn’t know you cared. I do believe I found a string to pull.
I see the spate of things you don’t know spills the bounds of the law. But don’t feel too bad– I don’t know how she manages, either. And I don’t mind paying a bit more than something’s worth for the sake of novelty. Have you found a new barber yet?
Dave B,
Why do you care about my hair? I am happily married.
Oh, and is your wife happily married, too?
I just noticed from watching you in action in those courtroom videos that the more flustered you get, the more that cowlick on the back of your head sticks up. You don’t need a tell like that, Mario. You need all the help you can get. Perry Mason you’re not.
Dave B,
Wow, you are amazing! But is it powers of perception or powers of weirdness?
Let’s just leave it at amazing. You’re amazing too, Mario.
As I recounted somewhere else, I once had the displeasure of dealing with mob lawyers in the infamous Paretti case and believe me, it’s no picnic.
No offense intended, but why is it that some of you don’t seem to get it: MARIO IS PAID TO LIE. Period. The only thing that remains in doubt is WHO pays him.
3 for me too. One may have been a suicide though, he was a depressed alcoholic and it appears that he walked out into traffic on purpose – into the path of a speeding out of control drunk.
My best friend survived his encounter with a 16 year old drunk, miraculously. He had just bought a used 1 year old BMW motorcycle and had put it into the garage to be ‘made new again’. He got it out of the garage on Halloween afternoon, and went to pick up our other roommate from work before going to a party. He never picked up the roommate, and we couldn’t find him for 2 days. We eventually found him in the hospital, and he was high as a kite from the painkillers, but he was already chatting up the nurses and when I walked in he had his hand up a skirt – the dude was crazy. He dated one of them off and on for the next couple of years.
Anyway, the drunk 16yo had ‘borrowed’ his dad’s pickup and was so drunk that he didn’t even notice when he drove over the top of the great big motorcycle. My friends jacket got caught on the bumper of the truck and he was dragged for about 400 yards before the driver heard a funny noise (the remains of the motorcycle caught under the truck banging around) and slowed down to check it out. I don’t think the kid even had a drivers license to lose.
Can you PLEASE warn us before you make remarks like that! We need some warning to disconnect the irony meters.
C’mon Mario, give us a break!
Oh this reminds me of….I remember, Mario and the sound slapping around he received at CAAFLOG.
Remember Mario how each and every one of your value free prognostications was shredded?
So Mario, do have your check book ready this time, I have a strong feeling that no matter the crawling and verbal gymnastics this time the order to show cause won’t go away quite so easily.
Shouldn’t you be preparing for your beat down in court? Its getting pretty close to time on.
… and there’s only room enough on this site for one of us!”
It is amazing that Mario can be wrong in everything that he says. What is the point of your quote of Jay or Andrews? They do not say that one needed citizen parents to be born a citizen. It is true there were a few people who thought “citizen” and “subject” were not the same, but no one said one said the rule of becoming one was different or that a citizen needed citizen parents. You have to somehow try to read that into the definition because you have no actual authority. To counter this, we have shown there is a mountain of authority saying these terms meant the same thing including early legislatures, the most famous early scholars, early courts and, of course, the majority of the Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark. You are going to have to do better than this.
With respect to Wilson’s law lectures, you are again showing you are either dishonest or stupid. For persons who can read English, Wilson said this:
“A citizen then—to draw his description as one of the people—I deem him, who acts a personal or a represented part in the legislation of his country.”
So who acts a personal or represented part of the legislation of the country. Those with the right to vote. This is clear by the next sentence:
“He has other rights; but his legislative I consider as his characteristic right. In this view, a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union: for the members of the house of representatives in the national legislature are chosen, in each state, by electors, who, in that state, have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature.”
It is even clearer by the next sentence
“In this view, a citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-two years, and the son of a citizen.”
Wilson says in a footnote he is citing Art. III, Sec. I of the PA Constitution here:
“In elections by the citizens, every freeman of the age of twenty-one years, having resided in the State two years next before the election, and within that time paid a State or county tax, which shall have been assessed at least six months before the election, shall enjoy the rights of an elector: Provided, That the sons of persons qualified as aforesaid, between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-two years, shall be entitled to vote, although they shall not have paid taxes.”
Hence, parentage is only relevant in PA to relieve persons between the ages of 21 and 22 from the obligation of paying taxes if their parents did and hence had the right to vote (and be considered citizens by Wilson).
Wilson goes on to say:
“I have, on another occasion,traced the description of a citizen in every other state of the Union: to your recollection of that investigation, and to the constitutions of the several states, I now refer you.
The footnote says the “other occasion” is on pages 132-37 of the book which, of course, simply lists the suffrage requirements of every state and not one says parentage is relevant. Hence, Wilson says a citizen of the US is a citizen of a state and the citizen of a state is one with the right to vote. He surveys each state and only one says parentage is relevant for one year for persons between the ages of 21 and 22. I have shown this 3 times and you have not made a substantive response because there is none to this unambiguous language. I guess you will now triple down on stupid and just keep insisting you are right.
Mario will not be paying any fines assessed against him; no doubt his unidentified client(s) will.
I contacted them, pointed out the mistake, and they wrote back thanking me for the information and told me that they had fixed it.
They fixed half of it. They changed “naturalization” to “citizenship” in the question, but they left the word “naturalization” in the answer. So now it doesn’t make much sense at all. They ask one question, but answer a different question (incorrectly at that).
If you follow up with them, they may finish fixing it, and then what will Mario Apuzzo do? Even now, in this half-corrected version, he is losing his best “evidence” right in front of his eyes.
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1896/1896_132
Mario has committed himself to Wilson and is now faced with no good way out while still ‘saving face’. Instead, in true Mario fashion he has chosen, somewhat foolishly, to move full steam ahead. After all, if he were to accept your findings, he would have to inform the Court of his mistaken arguments.
Of course, the Court may be quite familiar and aware of Mario’s problems, which may explain why they, instead of proceeding via phone, have invited him into their courtroom. Some would consider this a rather ominous sign. We shall see.
I also remain quite amused by their word “tedious” regarding the majority opinion in WKA. A bit unprofessional, on the one hand, but also humorous when they can’t even get it right, or only fix it halfway.
I’m sure they’ll finish fixing it, but it’s just too hilarious that a site devoted to legal matters decides to label this particular opinion tedious (and then can’t even get it right, to boot). Hello? I know case law has been making a big hit these days on the NY Times bestseller list, but no need to call WKA tedious just because it isn’t up to modern day blockbuster standards.
I can’t wait for the Hollywood remake. Hulk smash!
The Cato Institute has a good paper on birthright citizenship, observing how the ruling in US v Wong Kim Ark explained how any child born on US soil, with minor exceptions, was, under Common Law principles, subject to US laws and that such a child was thus a US citizen at birth. It also observed how the 14th Amendment merely was declarative of the common law. Now, understanding that native and natural born are overlapping concepts, and understanding that since these children were born on US soil, their birth was natural as they could not be naturalized, the logical conclusion is simple and straightforward.
From Schneider v Rusk we know that
Or as the Dissenting Opinion explains, mirroring the majority opinion that
The there is Luria v United States
And Town of New Hartford v Town of Canaan
I assume we are all looking forward to Mario’s Court hearing tomorrow? Any predictions beyond the obvious denial?
Considering the repetitive, rehashed and resubmitted nature of his filings, identical to the LAST set that garnered the OSC, who knows, maybe another one of those.
Of course since his core arguments are identical to the ones the court had concerns around last time, the court may not be as……congenial as they were last time.
On the gripping hand, (gratuitous Motie allusion) the courts seem to treat all Birfoon suits as if they are being raised by the brain damaged and give them way to much consideration, so who knows.
I predict that the cowlick on the back of Mario’s head is going to go completely out of control, and that he’s going to wish he’d got some sleep last night instead of staying up engaging in “a lot of worthless chatter”.
I can imagine that Mario may be a bit nervous about having to defend his position in front of the judges. After all, did he not lose the case to a pretty junior lawyer? Well, it could have been worse, at least the chair was not completely empty.
A pretty junior lawyer? nbc, you’re going to make her blush.
I think the court will cut short any arguments regarding Mario’s ridiculous “theories”. The crux of the matter revolves around the Secretary of State’s duties and leeway under New Jersey law, which renders eligibility arguments moot. The bottom line is that the law requires party nominees be placed on the ballot and properly leaves determinations of their qualifications to Congress,
I agree. The Court will insist on sticking to the complaint. Then it will try to find anything in the argument that applies to the complaint and fail. It will deny the complaint.
What it will then do is anybody’s guess. The fact that they have called him in for face-to-face may well mean that they aren’t going to do ‘Bovril’s Shuffle’ ™ this time.
The last time he showed up in court they made him show cause why he shouldn’t be penalized for misleading the court. The way his arguments have been characterized here, it looks like he’s doing it again, only more so.
Its Wednesday my time. Is it on yet?
I recklessly risked brain cells and read Mr. Apuzzo’s amicus brief. Even after seeing what was spewed here, I was still astonished. It is one thing to argue with people online, it is another to file with the court a brief containing “conveniently” edited quotes and misrepresentations.
I think the court will (should) open a can of whoop-a$$ on Mr. Appuzo.
True, but one may hope that the Appeal’s Court also addresses Mario’s confused arguments about NBC…
I would like to point out what a xenophobe our Founding Father James Wilson (whom Mario claims to support his position) actually was.
When a proposal came up to make the Constitutional citizenship requirement for United States Senator fourteen years — since Senators are involved in treaties with foreign nations — here’s what James Wilson (one of the most influential delegates and regarded at the “most learned” of the Framers of the Constitution) had to say, according to James Madison’s notes:
Mr. Wilson said he rose with feelings which were perhaps peculiar; mentioning the circumstance of his not being a native, and the possibility, if the ideas of some gentlemen should be pursued, of his being incapacitated from holding a place under the very Constitution which he had shared in the trust of making. He remarked the illiberal complexion which the motion would give to the System, & the effect which a good system would have in inviting meritorious foreigners among us, and the discouragement & mortification they must feel from the degrading discrimination, now proposed. He had himself experienced this mortification. On his removal into Maryland, he found himself, from defect of residence, under certain legal incapacities, which never ceased to produce chagrin, though he assuredly did not desire & would not have accepted the offices to which they related. To be appointed to a place may be matter of indifference. To be incapable of being appointed, is a circumstance grating, and mortifying.
I don’t think Wilson was being a zenophobe. This is actually where most scholars think the grandfather provision of the NBC clause comes from. While the proposal being discussed here was officially a 14 year citizenship requirement in order to hold office, they were also discusssing the proposal from Delegate Gerry (of gerrymander fame) that only natives could hold office. It is the proposal of Gerry that Wilson is discussing here saying that since he was not a native (being born in Scotland), he would be incapacitated from holding office under the very Constitution he had been entrusted to help write. He was quite offended even using the word “mortified.” He made another speech on this showing similar offense and pointing out that other members of the Convention who were foreign born would be ineligible to hold office as well. After one such speech, it was first suggested that there should be a grandfather exception for current citizens to these proposals. They were, of course, talking about eligibility for Congress, but at this time it was thought that Congress would choose the President or that the President would be the President of the Senate so that membership in Congress was the important issue. These were the only discussions on eligilbity in the Convention and no one proposed anything other than a native birth requirement or a lengthly period of citizenship before a foreign born citizen was eligible to hold office. The framers in these discussions contrasted the foreign born like Wilson from “natives,” the latter being a word used by both Blackstone and Vattel at such time. However, it is clear they were using such term in the sense of Blackstone as it was being used solely with respect to place of birth. I guess the framers themselves didn’t understand what they were doing.
I don’t think Wilson was being a zenophobe.
I think you somehow missed the sarcasm.
Sorry, I guess it was pretty clear if I was paying attention. But you bring up an interesting point, Wilson was about the last person that would have wanted to discriminate against foreigners in terms of eligibility.
I think it’s also clear that Wilson’s remarks were in the context not of the Senate being limited to natives, but in the context of 14 years of US citizenship being too long a Constitutional requirement for those who started out as foreigners to wait before they would be deemed acceptable to serve in our Senate.
Here’s the same discussion, from James McHenry’s notes, which confirms that James Madison, Ben Franklin and James Wilson were all opposed to long Constitutional citizenship requirements before someone could be a Senator:
Mr. Maddison was against such an invidious distinction. The matter might be safely intrusted to the respective legislatures. Doctor Franklin was of the same opinion. Mr. Willson expressed himself feelingly on the same side. It might happen, he said, that he who had been thought worthy of being trusted with the framing of the Constitution, might be excluded from it. He had not been born in this country. He considered such exclusing as one of the most galling chains which the human mind could experience, It was wrong to deprive the government of the talents virtue and abilities of such foreigners as might chuse to remove to this country. The corrup of other countries would not come here. Those who were tired in opposing such corruptions would be drawn hither, etc. etc.
So they put the 14-year citizenship requirement to a vote. It failed.
They reduced it to 13 years, and voted again. It failed.
They reduced it to 10 years, and voted again. It failed.
They reduced it to 9 years, and did some bargaining. Randolph initially had said he could go no more than 7 years, but finally agreed to 9 years “with the expectation that it will be reduced to seven if Mr. Wilson’s motion to reconsider the vote fixing 7 years for the House of Representatives should produce a reduction of that period.”
When 9 years was put to a vote, it finally passed.
So you have many of the most important and famous Founding Fathers — Madison, Franklin, Wilson — all in agreement that we didn’t want to unduly restrict foreigners from coming and serving in the United States Senate. These seem to have the least fearful people in the room of “foreign influence.”
I have long been a proponent of a sarcasm font.
ballantine,
You’re not the only one not paying quite enough attention. Even though I quoted this, I just noticed myself what it was really saying:
“with the expectation that it will be reduced to seven if Mr. Wilson’s motion to reconsider the vote fixing 7 years for the House of Representatives should produce a reduction of that period.”
So Mr. Wilson had put forward a motion to reduce the citizenship requirement for the House of Representatives, once again confirming his lack of fear of “foreign influence” and opposition to such excessive citizenship restrictions.
ballantine,
I see that you are still misrepresenting what the James McClure case was all about. What lies I see spread here on these pages. The record shows that the James Madison Administration said he was a naturalized citizen after birth (was born in South Carolina to a British father who naturalized almost one year after his birth while McClure was dwelling in the United States) and you want to change what they said to say that McClure was a citizen from birth or what your would then call a “natural born Citizen.” You know that you are just making stuff up. Like I said, the James McClure case shows that I have been right from day one and you have been wrong. And you just do not want to admit that I got the evidence to prove my position correct.
Publius says this about the law of Virginia:
“The law of Virginia, of 1792, does – for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen”
The 1792 act also had this provision:
“And also all children wheresoever born, whose fathers or mothers are or were citizens at the time of the commonwealth, shall be deemed citizens of this Commonwealth”
So the Virginia Law on citzenship is jus soli? How does it compare to the 1779 act or the 1783?
Tell it to the judge, Mario, tell it to the judge. Everyone’s expecting great things from you!
Don’t think this was posted here yet. I found it on Mario’s blog: http://www.scribd.com/puzo1/d/95195368-Purpura-Moran-Reply-Letter-Brief-FILED-5-29-12
The Madison Administration made no such admission, in fact, McClure was granted a passport as he was a native citizen.
Where are you getting your information? Shows us that the Madison Administration made the statements you claim it did.
Ouch, poor Mario… Seems that he lost another ‘argument’
Yes, NBC. I predict midway through the court’s berating scolding of Mario for continuing to waste the court’s time with frivolous nonsense, Mario will initiate a reading comprehension defense by warning the judge that as he understands his daily medicine’s printed directions, he will be forced to seek immediate medical attention for any correction lasting longer than four hours. And this from a guy who doubtless remembers from his own Birther courtroom losses that he needs to take take two or three after oral arguments.
Yes, tomorrow is the big day: frog march or die.
The only prediction that I’ll make is that Apuzzo will lose the appeal. Beyond that I would just be displaying my own biases.
I didn’t mention it in my comment, but I knew it was half fixed and I had already replied to the Oyez Project Director. It’s 100% fixed now.
As for Apuzzo, I am not Apuzzo’s keeper.
He could pretend to pass out and then soil himself. They might buy that over the abject stupidity with which he’s insulting the court’s intelligence.
Cool. Never one to doubt the Doc am I.
I will predict that the court will not let Mario carry on with his silly dissertations as other courts have done in the past with Orly. They have much work to get done tomorrow and they won’t take any of his crap.
Mario’s given us a preview of coming attractions in his Reply to Respondent’s Brief. Doesn’t look promising for Mario. http://www.scribd.com/puzo1/d/95195368-Purpura-Moran-Reply-Letter-Brief-FILED-5-29-12
Doesn’t sound like Mr. Mario is backing off. I wonder if he has been double-dog-dared?
Gotta keep that PayPal button clicking. How else he going to keep those rubes supporting his bogus dog and pony show?
That’s sad. At least people watching infomercials and shopping networks get something for their money.
Not anymore…they’ve corrected their mistake. Please post more of such “precious” finds, so they can get corrected post-haste.
I know Doc says he’s not your keeper, but who said we couldn’t work together? You post the lies and errors, and Doc will get them corrected. Voila!
Seriously, what is wrong with you? Do you think simply repeating over and over that the Madison administration said McClure was naturalized will make it true. Are you actually retarded? You have been challenged over and over to support such silly statement and you never do because you cannot. Seriously, provide some support for this BS or you are admitting to being a lying scumbag. We will be waiting, but you will provide nothing as usual. You are an embarrassment to lawyers everywhere.
One could submit such statute to 1000 law professors or judges and all 1000 would say Mario is wrong. In fact, any child versed in English would say he is wrong. Plain English is plain English as even Publius understands. There is no rule of statutory construction which allow re-writing the plain meaning of a statute by adding words and changing the tense. Again, Mario said something stupid and instead of admitting he was wrong he will rather keep doubling down stupid thinking the rest of the word can’t read English.
Oops. What if that was another one of his “smoking guns” for court?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! !
Mario doesn’t have any “smoking guns”. Unless you count the smoke streaming from his ears as he tries to make up into down, east into west, etc.
As far as I have been able to determine, the Madison administration never made this statement. Closest comes the decision to grant McClure a passport because he was a native citizen. What is it with this poor reading comprehension on the part of Mario?
What a partnership. I am sure that Mario will inform the court that the corrections have been properly made 🙂
ballantine,
Publius stated in 1811 in connection to the James McClure citizenship case:
“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such. ”
In the poetic words of the great one, nbc, ouch!
So it was not the Madison Administration who stated this but rather an unidentified person going by the name Publius and the Madison Administration, granted McClure a passport because he was a native.
Your reading comprehension is horrible at best, only to be outdone by your self denial.
Double Ouch…
But Publius did disagree with your interpretation of the Virginia laws… Guess you do want to pick and chose 🙂 And we already know that Madison subscribed to the jus soli principle.
Poor Mario. Good luck tomorrow, bring your checkbook.
That is all so true — yet the scumbag is laughing all the way to the bank, I’d bet.
In a way Mario is much worse than a mob lawyer; the mob isn’t weakening the country the way delegitimizing a president is. Tony Soprano is entitled to a defense; here, Mario is paid to push forward a hate agenda.
Ouch??? You found an anonymous letter that agrees with you and you think it is paydirt. Are you trying to prove how stupid you are? I have challenged you to provide support for your claim that such was the position of the Madiosn administration and you cannot so we just have to assume you are lying again. Seriously, what is wrong with you?
Gorefan pasted the letter Secretary of State sent to France certifying Mcclure’s citizenship:
Joel Barlow Esq. Department of State
Paris Nov. 27, 1811
Sir
I have the honor to enclose several affidavits and certificates just handed to me by Mr. Cheves the Representative in Congress from the City of Charleston proving that James McClure now detained in France as a British Prisoner of War was born in Charleston since the Revolution. To these Papers is annexed a Certificate of W[illiam] Johnson Esq. one of the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States before whom the affidavits were taken stating “that agreeable to the laws and usage of the United States, the said affidavits and Certificates are sufficient to establish the fact that James M McClure above named is a Citizen of the United States.” As such he must be considered by this Government. You will therefore interpose your good offices in his behalf and obtain his release from confinement as soon as possible.
I have [the honor]
James Monroe
Hence, the facts are that the Madison administartion gave him a passport as a native born citizen and later sent a letter to France certifying his US citizenship that included affidavits only proving he was born in the United States. Place of birth would be irrelevant under the theory of Publius and the administration would not have gone to the efforts to send affidavits proving his place of birth if irrelevant under our laws. Rather, it would have sned evidence that he or his father was naturalized. DUH! Hence, all evidence points to the Madison administration disagreed with an anonymous letter. Mario has entered the world of delusion again. Anyone think this might not be Mario but someone trying to make him look realy, realy dumb?
I have often wondered what was actually written by Mario and what was written by Kerchner.
It really doesn’t matter much. Unless he has a sudden flash of sanity, the actual putz will be embarrassing himself in court.
Also, keep in mind that the same drivel posted here has been copied and pasted verbatim on his delusional birther blog along with the ramblings of his bigot brothers praising his nonsense.
nbc,
The reading comprehension problem is yours. Publius confirms exactly what I have maintained all along. McClure was a “Citizen of the United States.” But he was not a “natural born Citizen.”
Hint
Shouldn’t you be gassing up the car for your trip to Trenton?
Mario the Great and Powerful phones’em in from the road!
Will hearing video surface in which Mario is clearly seen furiously posting his brilliance online while his brilliance is being furiously burned to a crisp right in front of him (again)?
“Bailiff, please remove Mr. Apuzzo’s electronic devices …”
He wouldn’t be the first birther to be sanctioned for not knowing when to quit!
Don’t you get it NBC? The anonymous Publius is dispositive of American law because Mario says so. Forget what the court and scholars of such day said. Forget that the Madison administration rejected the view of Publius by sending affidavits and certificates to France proving McClure was born in the US and stating that such “affidavits and Certificates are sufficient to establish the fact that James M McClure above named is a Citizen of the United States.” It is hard to make this kind of stupidity up. I am guessing Mario is pulling our leg here. I’m also guessing the Publius was a lousy lawyer that tried to make a living representing druck carriage drivers.
ballantine,
What a coincidence that the James Madison Administration’s view of national citizenship is consistent with Emer de Vattel, The Venus (Chief Justice John Marshall concurring), Shanks, Inglis (the majority of the United States Supreme Court), Dred Scott (Justice Daniels concurring), and Minor (the unanimous United States Supreme Court.
Regarding the Wong Kim Ark majority (Chief Justice Fuller and Justice Harlan dissented), the Court simply naturalized Wong “at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, which means for the first time that a child could be born in the United States to alien parents (domiciled) who never naturalized and be considered a “citizen of the United States.” Wong is nothing more than an extension of the James McClure case. Wong granted the status of a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” to a child born in the United States to alien parents who never naturalized after the child’s birth. So Wong replaced the status of parents having to be “citizens” with the status that parents had to be “domiciled” (making the child born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States” before a child born in the United States could be found to be a “citizen of the United States.” And Wong also added that such a child’s citizenship would be from the moment of birth. But again, Wong Kim Ark held Wong to be a “citizen of the United States,” not a “natural born Citizen,” like the James Madison Administration held James McClure to be a “Citizen of the United States” and not a “natural born Citizen.”
One of these days some judge is going to go all “Judge Judy” on your a** and your idiotic ravings.
You just continue to embarrass yourself. Claiming over and over that the Madison Administration agreed with you when you have no such evidence is really quite sick. I have pointed out the evidence is pretty clear the Madison Administration disagreed with you as they said the affidavits proving his place of birth proved he was a citizen. And it really is quite sad you are still saying those cases support you. You never respond to posts that point out they say nothing that supports you.
You declusion continues. Gray never said WKA was naturalized. He said the opposite.
“Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.”
Really, how dumb are you? And Gray didn’t say the 14th Amendment was the first time children of aliens werr citizens, he said the Amendment was declaratory of what the law always was:
“it is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
Is it really possible ytou are so dumb you can’t understand such quotes?
Gibberish. Gray never said domicile was required. He said both the natural born citizenship clause and the 14th Amendment were defined by the English common law which included, but was not limited to, domiciled alien parents. Do you every stop making things up? He said “subject to the jurisdiction” only excluded the common law exclusions:
“The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, “All persons born in the United States” by the addition “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases — children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State — both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country.”
Notice he said such has always been our law. DUH!!!
For real judges and people who can read, Gray held WKA to be a citizen becuase the common law definition of natural born subject was incorporated into the original Constitution’s NBC clause and re-stated in the 14th Amendment. Since children of laiens were natural born subjects, WKA was as well. Regardless, Gray’s definition of natural born citizen is part of the holding of the case as I have explained many times. Notice you don’t think it matter that Waite didn’t call Minor a natural born citizen but think it relevant that Gray didn’t call WKA one even though it made it clear as could be that he was.
Your statement about the Madison administration is again pure fantasy.There really is something wrong with someone who keeps making such statements without any evidence.
Publius wrote:
“These ideas are suggested with a considerable diffidence – The case of James McClure is clearly a nice one – and even if I had not the best motives to general Armstrong in this transaction, still there is that dubious complexion in the case which might lead me to think, that a very honest and enlightened man might honestly differ with me on the occasion.”
By “very honest and enlightened man” does he mean William Pinkney the Minister Plenipotentiary from the United States to Great Britain, who gave McClure a US Passport “confessing him to be a native citizen of the U.S.”?
Was expressed accurately by the Minister from the US to Britain who provided McClure with a passport because he was a native citizen and by Madison himself who stated
Who are you trying to fool but yourself and your clients my dear Mario? With such an attitude, I can only hope that a check book will suffice.
After today’s smackdown let’s hope that Mario recovers quickly, the denial so far however does not bode well for a speedy recovery.
Section 214 of the Vattel compendium demonstrates that in common law countries “indigenes” (not “natural born” subjects) were determined differently. Mr. Apuzzo only cites from section 212, which applied on the Continent, not in England.
And Chief Justice Fuller’s dissent in Wong Kim Ark demonstrates that Mr. Apuzzo is very, very foolish. Mr. Apuzzo may have convinced his patron, Charles Kerchner, but that’s about it.
Mr. Apuzzo should go back to defending drivers who drink too much. He’s over his head here.
Venus never mentions the phrase “Natural Born Citizen,” and discusses Vattel use of Domicile, not citizenship, to resolve the issue before the court.
Oh hang on, non mention of NBC irrelevant in Venus but of vital importance in Wong Kim Ark! I guess I don’t have the legal brain to figure out these birther subtle distinctions.
If I might lodge just a slight technical exception to the comment made:
The majority opinion in US v Wong Kim Ark uses the term “natural born” (by my count) some thirty-five times, and “native born” an additional fourteen times.
Suranis is 100% correct. Marshall quoted the transalation of Vattel that did not include the term “natural born citizen.” He quoted it solely on the issue of the domicile of a citizen in the time of war. It was a prize case. The section in Vattel that discusses citieznship also happens to talk about domicile. It is law school 101 that a citation on domicile relates to domicles and not to extraneous matters that happesn to be in the quote. For example, if a court cited someone on a point of tax law, anything in the quote unrelated to such point, say ERISA law, is extraneous material. There is no debate on this. This has been pointed out to Mario 100 times and he never responds because he cannot. Further evidence of what kind of person he is.
Is that a parabola or a hyperbola illuminating Mario in the pic above? Hyperbola would be super apropos.
It’s actually a bit of a spotlight. Mr. Apuzzo was put in the “hot seat” for a bit of questioning on his claims in a thread over at my blog. The photo comes from that thread and was of course a modified version of a photo of him floating around on the web.
Reality Check of Reality Check Radio and Dr. C here must’ve liked the effect, as they’ve both borrowed the photo. 😉
Can we assume that since we have not heard Apuzzo crowing about his “success” in Trenton things did not go quite as he had expected?
Sef, there were several cases before the appeals court this afternoon. Who knows when the Purpura-Moran appeal was actually called?
And it must take Mario some time to compose 2,000 word posts that express what could have been said in about 300. 😉
John Woodman – good to see you here again, we thought you’d retired!
I just hope the judges give Mario the tongue lashing he deserves. He’s not just wasting the court’s time; he comes primarily under color of Imaginary and Misconstrued Law to deceive low-information voters with arguments cobbled together from quote-mining, out-of-context citations, and deliberately incomplete accounts of history.
The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814):
Chief Justice John Marshall, concurring and dissenting for other reasons, cites Vattel and provides his definition of natural born citizens and said:
“Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”
Keep dreaming ballantine. This was a prize case. The first thing that the Court has to do in any prize case is to determine the citizenship of the parties. You really are ignorant of many matters.
I guess your case did not go too well…
How did it go this afternoon?
Ballantine says that James McClure was declared a “natural born Citizen” when in fact as documented by a letter dated November 27, 1811 from James Madison to Joel Barlow, Esq., U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson said he was a “Citizen of the United States.”
Ballantine says that Minor was only about voting and not about citizenship when in fact Minor covered the subject of citizenship at length.
Now he says that The Venus was only about domicile and not about citizenship.
The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814):
Chief Justice John Marshall, concurring and dissenting for other reasons, cites Vattel and provides his definition of natural born citizens and said:
“Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”
The Venus was a prize case. The first thing that the Court has to do in any prize case is to determine the citizenship of the parties.
As we can see, ballantine just keeps giving us nothing but falsehoods.
Marshall merely quotes from Vattel, and the issue of citizenship is not of any relevance. What was relevant is the concept of domicile
ROTFL.. So when are you going to show that the Madison Administration agreed with your interpretation in the case of McClure? Especially when the representative of the administration granted McClure a passport because he was a native citizen…
Who are you trying to fool?
A natural born citizen is a citizen of the united states. So that is not going to help us much here. What we do know is that Madison was a proponent of jus soli and that the representative of his administration considered McCLure to be a native citizen.
Poor Mario
Ballantine says that I am wrong in saying that Wong Kim Ark naturalized Wong to be a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” because of this quote from Minor:
“Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.”
Well, does that really mean that Wong was not naturalized “at birth,” or does it just mean that since he is made a citizen (naturalized) “at birth” he needs no naturalization after birth?
What’s your take on how things went today, Mario?
“Macduff was from his mother’s womb
Untimely ripped.”
It doesn’t apply here.
I want to complement Romney – he’s gone far for someone who has unicorn DNA.
Have you noticed that Oyez changed their website’s description of WKA to eliminate reference to “naturalization” and make it clear it was about citizenship?
WKA was about citizenship, not naturalization. You’re not going to be able to do anything about that reality.
You are wrong because the Supreme Court has consistently held that a child born on US soil could not be naturalized.
There is no evidence that WKA was naturalized at birth, and sufficient evidence that by virtue of common law, he was, by virtue of his birth a natural born citizen.
I noticed you have avoided the references I provided to you… Very sensible…
and
and
Cheers
So you are citing a dissenting opinion? That is right out of the Birther playbook. This was not the opinion of the court. That is why they call it a dissenting opinion. The decision of the court in this case was against the US citizens who had settled in Great Britain. Marshall quoted Vattel because this was a case that involved international law and citizens who had taken domicile in another country. The citizens involved were naturalized citizens. This case had absolutely nothing to do with defining the meaning of natural born citizen in any way.
Total despair. Mario must realize that the case has been lost
Wong couldn’t have been naturalized because of the Chinese Exclusion Act. He was only a citizen due to birth in the US.
Here’s a picture of a natural citizen:
http://i.pbase.com/o6/17/20117/1/70297983.dJAwcb8G.JustPassinThru.jpg
Wow, you may be the dumbest lawyer I have ever encountered. Marshall was not determining whether the person was a citizen. The sole purpose of the citation was whether he had changed domicile. The quote has nothing to do with citizenship and cannot be cited for who was a citizen. Here is what Marshall said he was citing Vattel on:
“The whole system of decisions applicable to this subject rests on the law of nations as its base. It is therefore of some importance to inquire how far the writers on that law consider the subjects of one power residing within the territory of another, as retaining their original character or partaking of the character of the nation in which they reside.”
Whether an American citizen residing abroad retained his charactor as an American citizen in time of war has nothing to do with who was a natural born citizen. You really are dumb.
So you are now saying that the Madison adminstration in saying McClure was a citizen due to his birth in the US was only a citizen and not a natual born citizen? How pathetic. They in no way said he was not a natural born citizen. Natural born citizenship was not relevant for the purpose and, of course, a natural born citizen was a citizen. If they declared him a citizen because of his native birth, what kind of citizen do you think he was? How many types of citizens existed in 1811? Your arguments keep getting dumber and dumber. Your argument was that the Madison Administration said he was a naturalized citizen due to the naturaization of his father. All evidence indicates that this was not the case. Rather he was a citizen due to his birth on US soil.
Linda,
You said: “Wong couldn’t have been naturalized because of the Chinese Exclusion Act. He was only a citizen due to birth in the US.”
Wong could not be a citizen due to his birth in the U.S. because his father was not a “citizen.” Since his father was not a “citizen,” the Court had to naturalize Wong. So Wong gave “subject to the jurisdiction” an expansive meaning, replacing “citizen” parents with “domiciled” parents.
Vattel made the point when he stated in “Section 214 Naturalisation,” that in England, “the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.” Hence, we can see that in natural law and Vattel, there was no such thing as a person being born in a country to alien parents and becoming thereby by nature a citizen of that nation. As Vattel demonstrated, that child could become a citizen of that nation through naturalization (“grant[ing] to a foreigner the quality of a citizen” thorough law. Sec. 214) which occurred after birth under Congressional Acts or which under the English common law occurred automatically at the moment of birth for children born within the King’s dominions to alien parents. So like Lord Coke in 1608, who naturalized Calvin at birth, Justice Gray naturalized Wong at birth.
Justice Gray was able to overcome the Chinese Exclusion Act by saying that the Fourteenth Amendment trumped those acts.
The quote is from Wong Kim Ark and it clearly states that a person born in the US is not naturalized unless you cannot read English. Show me anything in WKA that says he was naturalized. Show me any court that has ever said a person born on US soil was naturalized. There is nothing. As I have pointed out, no court has ever said someone born on Us soil was naturalized as this quote confirms. Justice Gray tells us that a native child of aliens was a natural born citien and a citizen under the first clause of the 14th Amendment as they both were defined by the english common law and hence a person born on US soil did not need to be naturalized. If you can’t understand that, you are a moron.
ballantine,
You really are a pathetic human being in how you carry on.
Why do you not stop your whinnying and rather address my point that the first thing any prize court had to do was determine the citizenship of the parties.
Which is exactly the argument rejected by the majority in Wong Kim Ark. You really are a moron. Justice Gary said such persons were always native born citizens regardless of the citizenship of the father:
“it is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
Are you drunk? Please explain this quote if you think you are right.
Show where Marshall was determining the citienship of the parties. Such was not part of his decision. Can you really not read. Please, show me where he was addressing that in such quote?
That is not what the case says.
“It is conceded that, if he is a citizen of the United States, the acts of Congress, known as the Chinese Exclusion Acts, prohibiting persons of the Chinese race, and especially Chinese laborers, from coming into the United States, do not and cannot apply to him.
The question presented by the record is whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,”
It was agreed that if he was a citizen the CEA could not apply. The Court ruled he was born a citizen at birth. If he were not a citizen at birth, he would not have been eligible to be naturalized and would not have been a US citizen at all.
Perhaps he’s punch-drunk from a recent drubbing in court?
No, that’s Acid. Man, that’s some stuff he has. I’m impressed.
I think that is technically possible.
There is the possibility of someone renouncing US citizenship and later restoring citizenship via naturalization. Then there would be those born in the US to diplomats or the possibly invading armies (although I don’t believe that’s ever happened before in any territory where jus soli citizenship was granted).
Even so, that presents an interesting predicament. A certified birth certificate is a de facto identity document, and to my knowledge the parental status isn’t noted nor is there a modification if one was granted if one renounces citizenship. I think the State Dept usually becomes informed of one formally renouncing citizenship.
You are letting the side down here. We really need to ramp up the invective.
Mario: what is the correct tree height?
MichaelN has left a new comment on your post “Purpura and Moran File Their Brief and Appendix in…”:
Puzo1 said….
“Ballantine says that James McClure was declared a “natural born Citizen” when in fact as documented by a letter dated November 27, 1811 from James Madison to Joel Barlow, Esq., U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson said he was a “Citizen of the United States.”
Ballantine says that Minor was only about voting and not about citizenship when in fact Minor covered the subject of citizenship at length.
Now he says that The Venus was only about domicile and not about citizenship”
Well then, it should make sense to ballantine that Wonk Kim Ark was about “citizen of the United States” and NOT about Article II “natural born Citizen”.
“Man, that’s some stuff he has. I’m impressed.”
HYSTERICAL
so, did i miss it? did mario BLOVIATE about today?
bad/good sign i guess
Linda,
Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark said that Wong “becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution.”
There you have it stated precisely. Wong was only declared to be a “citizen of the United States.” Under Article I and II, a “citizen of the United States” is different from a “natural born Citizen.”
Wong Kim Ark also declared Wong a “citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.” As Minor explained, a “natural born Citizen” existed when the Constitution was written. It also explained that the Fourteenth Amendment did not define a “natural born Citizen.” Rather, it said that its definition was found in the “common law,” which given how the Court defined a “natural born Citizen” under that law, that “common law” could not have been the English common law.
Hence, Minor told us that we are to look to that “common law” for the definition of a “natural born Citizen,” and not to the Fourteenth Amendment. So, if someone is declared a “citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment,” that person is not necessarily a “natural born Citizen.” Rather, that person must satisfy the definition of the “common law” to be a “natural born Citizen.” Having satisfied that “common law” definition, then by virtue of the “common law,” that person is a “natural born Citizen.”
Things did not go too well?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_rsbd4HVre8
Mario sounded ill prepared to present an argument.
It also observed that the 14th was declarative of the common law…
nbc,
Why do you say that? It looks like the New Jersey Appellate Division is not going to confirm the New Jersey ALJ’s definition of a “natural born Citizen.”
Really… You are missing the point, it sounds as if the Appelate Division is not going to approve of your arguments. Whether or not they confirm the definition, which is consistent across various jurisdictions already, is hardly relevant.
I was commenting how ill prepared you sounded to argue the issues.
You do realize what the real issue were, do you not? So much time wasted on irrelevant arguments… You may be lucky that the Court may not take your musings seriously and file an OSC.
Not to mention the foolish arguments in the attachments which you were smart enough not to raise directly in your brief but were probably an effort to satisfy your client.
Such a non-event…
ballantine,
Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark said: “It is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
Both Chief Justice Fuller and Justice Harlan, in Wong Kim Ark, dissented from such a statement.
Minor proves Justice Gray to be wrong. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor said that “there have been doubts” whether a child born in the country to alien parents was a “citizen” and that it was “some authorities” who so believed. The Court did not cite to any case law.
The early naturalization acts prove Justice Gray to be wrong.
The James McClure case proves Justice Gray to be wrong.
The Venus (Marshall), Shanks, Inglis, and Dred Scott (Daniels) all prove Justice Gray to be wrong.
What’s more Justice Gray fails to provide convincing evidence to support his statement.
Regardless that there is no support for Justice Gray’s statement, he simply naturalized Wong under the Fourteenth Amendment to be a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth which means that Wong did not need any further naturalization.
It’s ok Mario, relax now, there is no reason to further make ill supported claims. It’s obvious that you are outsmarted by people much better informed than you. That and a very junior college graduate. Bless her heart…
Frustrating isn’t it… Relax, get some sleep and get used to be known as the losing attorney in two eligibility cases 😉 And rest assured that various judges have ruled arguments similar to yours as meritless or even frivolous.
Life’s a beach. Sucks when you get a sunburn though
nbc,
Do you really believe that your opinion counts in my book. You, like ballantine, have manipulated the truth on all your losing points since I have known you. Why should you start stating any truth now? You have zero credibility with me and with anyone outside your little circle. The only relief that you have is that you post anonymously. You surely could never reveal your true identity. You would have to hide your face in shame.
nbc,
I see that you are burning with rage that the New Jersey Appellate Division is not going to affirm the wrong definition of a “natural born Citizen.”
Is that why you keep avoiding addressing my references that show you to be wrong? Come on Mario, I am not the losing attorney here…
And yes, my opinion does count, at least to you because you cannot imagine losing, and yet, such has been your fate when you accepted to present foolish arguments that are ill founded in history and precedent.
Anyone who observes your representation of the McClure case quickly understands how poor your reading comprehension really is.
But why did you waste all this time with the Court and failed to do much to address the real issue of the case?
Weird…
ROTFL…. Sure Mario…
There are sufficient courts that have already considered your arguments to be frivolous, and it is unfortunate that this court really does not have to address the issue of eligibility. So why did you waste all this time and effort on an argument that even the opposing attorneys agreed, was not up to the court to decide.
You were so insisting on arguing your NBC claims that you overlooked the relevant pieces of the decision…
Congratulations Mario, you truly stepped in it…
Please please, no need to thank us… We just were here to nudge you into the ‘right’ direction.
Cheers Mario, I will make sure to remember you in my next toast. You’re worth it… So predictable though, so predictable…
PS: When will you show evidence that the Madison administration agreed with your position when Madison himself was a ‘jus soli’ man and the administration considered McClure to be a native, who under US Supreme Court Precedents could not be naturalized…
Such follies my dear friend.
Wait, what? Didn’t he win? Obama’s still in office? How can this be?
I have no idea, with such excellent arguments I find it hard to believe that any court could ignore his musings.
Sadly enough he was arguing NBC when he should have focused on the real arguments… He sounded ill prepared to address the Court’s questions.
Wow! Projection time again.
Let’s be clear: YOU, Meretricious Mario Apuzzo, have manipulated the truth on Vattel since I have known you. You have zero credibility with me and with anyone outside your little circle.
And that you do it all for a fee is nauseating.
ballantine,
I’m sorry, ballantine, but you are in checkmate. You said that the James Madison Administration did not declare James McClure to be a naturalized citizen which means then that, given it found that he was a “Citizen,” it would have had to declare him a “natural born Citizen.” Per James Monroe’s letter of November 27, 1811 that he sent to Joel Barlow, Esq., U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson found and stated in his Certificate that McClure was a “Citizen of the United States,” which we know from Article I and II was a naturalized citizen. Note that Justice Johnson even capitalized the “C” when he wrote “Citizen of the United States,” which shows that he was specifically referring to Article I and II “Citizen of the United States.”
We know that a “Citizen of the United States” in Article I is a naturalized citizen. You have also always maintained that a “Citizen of the United States” in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 was a naturalized citizen. And since we are talking about Founders and Framers making these statements and decisions regarding McClure, they surely used their words wisely and knew the critical constitutional distinction between a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States.” Even though there was no dispute that he was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785 (after the Revolution), Justice Johnson did not say that McClure was a “natural born Citizen.” And the reason he did not so declare is that when McClure was born, his father was a British subject. And the only reason he ruled McClure was a “Citizen of the United States” is that his father naturalized during his age of minority while McClure was dwelling with him in the United States.
So there you have it. Justice Johnson declared McClure to be a “Citizen of the United States,” and not a “natural born Citizen,” even though McClure was born in the United States after July 4, 1776.
The only difference for Obama is that if he was born in Hawaii, he became naturalized by the Fourteenth Amendment to be a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth. James McClure became naturalized by the Naturalization Act of 1802 to be a “citizen of the United States” after birth. Remember that when the Founders and Framers wrote the “natural born Citizen” clause into the Constitution, there was not Fourteenth Amendment. Regardless of the fact that Obama became a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth under the Fourteenth Amendment, both McClure and Obama are not “natural born Citizens.”
Checkmate, ballantine. And it could not happen to a nicer guy.
Poor Mario. Denial and anger… Well, at least these are good steps towards recovery from this devastating experience of a loss…
Ballantine has outclassed you at every step my friend. Just learn to live with it…
You should be getting used to this… If not, let us help you, so far you have shown yourself quite willing.
nbc,
You are so pathetic and ridiculous in your comments. Candidate Obama did not raise one of his appellate arguments below before ALJ Masin. He raised his arguments for the first time on appeal.
Nevertheless, I addressed the new arguments improperly made on appeal just fine.
ballantine,
Most of the Founders and Framers who were born prior to July 4, 1776 were born on soil that became U.S. soil. They were all naturalized.
Sure Mario… And then there is the video… Ouch… 25 minutes, then 10 minutes and 1 minute for the other side…
Good luck my friend, but I am sure you already understand that there is no chance that your case will succeed. The best you may hope for is that the court ignores your NBC comments, avoiding an OSC.
Reality Check,
The Marshall dissent had nothing to do with his defining a “natural born Citizen.” Rather, it had to do with whether the party had to lose his ship and cargo.
Your statements on the case are not only superficial, but also wrong. Citizenship is plastered all over the case. You do not know what a prize case is. Your statements that it does not involve citizenship are absurd. That’s what you get for following the erroneous statements of ballantine who also does not know what a prize case is about and that the first thing a prize court does is determine the citizenship of the parties.
Well, I suggested that you take a rest but then you come up with this foolish statement.
Sigh… Such poor reading comprehension, such poor logical and reasoning skills. Mario Mario… Stop impressing us…
Says the soon twice losing attorney… But then there are those, much smarter than him who very well understand the precedents and their relevance. Too bad that Mario is not among them.
Seeing him on video trying to arguing irrelevant issues was quite educational. I hope the Court takes pity on the poor guy. He deserves a small break.
And the ruse apparently worked… You wasted more time on a non issue. Come on Mario, step up to the plate…
And such beautiful poetry…
ROTFL… Mario, your poetry may be recited for decades to come…
nbc,
“The power is applicable only to those of foreign birth. Alienage is an indispensable element in the process. To make one of domestic birth a citizen is not naturalization, and cannot be brought within the exercise of that power. There is a universal agreement of opinion upon this subject. [**26] Scott v. Sanford, 19 How. [60 U.S.] 578; 2 Story, Const. 44.”
Scott v. Sanford did not want Congress to naturalize blacks. Blacks were not of foreign birth. They were not aliens. They were of domestic birth. Hence, the Court said that Congress could not naturalize them. But that was not the case with children born in the United States of white Europeans. They were surely of foreign birth, born with alienage, and not of domestic birth.
ROTFL… Keep up the good work my friend… So far you are undermining your own position… Come on Mario, take a rest before you embarrass yourself any further… As I have shown, it was not just Dred Scott which observed that one cannot naturalize children born on US soil. For obvious reasons of course. But that would require you to abandon some deeply held beliefs and I doubt that you are ready to accept the simple facts.
Ta Ta.
Hint: Universal agreement… You really should work on your reading comprehension a bit. Come on Mario… This is like taking candy from a baby. Take a rest Mario…
Mario, I watched the new video. When you start to lose it, and your hair starts to stick up in the back like that, can you feel it?
And that is just the start. Mario was there to defend his NBC follies and came ill prepared to address the real issues. So predicable.
Mario, at about 23:30 you claim that your ‘vetting’ process should apply to every candidate without regard to color or religion or I forget what exactly.
OK, suppose we take you on your word.
In that case, why isn’t Mr. Romney’s lawyer in that room. He has provided much much less proof than President Obama. Why aren’t you suing the Romney campaign and the Republican Party. And what about all the other candidates that were still in the running when your suit was filed?
Ouch…
nbc,
Someday you will have a winning argument. But not today.
Mario,
Someday you may have a winning haircut…
Says the soon twice losing attorney. Come on Mario.. At least make an effort.
Thanks for all the entertainment Mario… You’ve tried your best but well…
How is your client taking your performance. Was it as he had expected? Did he get what he paid for? Oh I forgot, you were pro bono. Well, he certainly got what he paid for then… Good for him
So George Washington was a “naturalized” citizen and John Jay thought him unfit to be commander and chief? Are you still avoiding that question after 3 years, or did I miss your answer?
James Madison said:
The word is “retained” not “obtained.”
For someone who I presume has studied the sources extensively, you should have gotten inside the founders heads by now. I guess you got stuck in your own head — it’s called confirmation bias.
Yes he did. And that was the Majority Opinion wasn’t it? I was under the impression that the Majority Opinion contained the Courts decision. Isn’t that how the Supreme Court works?
Yes they did. And that was a Minority Opinion wasn’t it? I was under the impression that the Majority Opinion contained the Courts decision not the Minority Opinion. Isn’t that how the Supreme Court works?
Everybody has been under that same impression all these 220 or more years, I’m glad you have cleared up this false assumption for us all. That means that “Citizen United” is being interpreted bass-ackwards too and we can cut off the heads of all these fornicating Super-PAC’s with out re-litigating it. Cool.
Minor doesn’t say anything about Justice Gray’s WKA holding in any way shape or form. That is an unmitigated lie. You cannot claim ignorance or a mistaken interpretation on this.
Even if what you say about the Minor case is correct, which it isn’t, Minor was BEFORE WKA. Minor was 1875. WKA was 1898. 23 years later If there was any ‘proving wrong’ to be done, which there isn’t, WKA would be proving Minor wrong.
In Minor it was mentioned that there is at least one circumstance of birth that is well understood to lead to NBC, and explicitly said there may be others. In the case before that court is was enough to know that Ms. Minor was a citizen, full stop. She was claiming the right to vote was an integral part of citizenship.
The court didn’t need to go in to detail about how Ms. Minor gained citizenship, only that she was a citizen. It identified a sufficient set of circumstances about Ms. Minor that demonstrated that she was a citizen and could have just stopped there. That the court mentioned those circumstances also meant that she was a NBC, and that there might be other conditions that would lead to NBC was more than the Court needed to decide the case. That means it was DICTA, discussion made in passing by the author of the opinion.
23 years later, in WKA Justice Gray said, yes, indeed, there are others circumstances that lead to NBC; or to be more precise, he said that the conditions that were mentioned in Minor were more than required; ‘born in America’ is sufficient; the status of the parents is of no consequence (unless they are outside the jurisdiction).
No they don’t. WKA was in 1898. The WKA holding is controlling.
No it doesn’t. Nothing in that case is as you described. An anonymous letter to the editor does not trump the actual actions the State Department took in regards to the case.
No they don’t. All were earlier that WKA, and before the 13th and 14th amendment. The WKA holding is controlling.
And Dred Scott was clearly wrong and offended the sensibilities of the American People. That is why the 14th Amendment was proposed and adopted.
Justice Gray didn’t naturalized anyone. Only Congress can naturalize someone, the Supreme Court doesn’t have any say in that matter; the Constitution reserves that power to the Congress.
Justice Gray agreed with the District Court of California that the Common Law defined NBC and cited precedent going back several centuries. Is not “Calvin’s Case” evidence? And who does the Supreme Court have to convince?
The Supreme Court holds; they don’t have to ‘convince’ some fly-by-night ignoramus 110 years later.
I don’t believe that for a minute. Do you, really?
are you calling me gullible? I was told that word was not even in the dictionary and that it was thus defined in common law
Would you settle for “naif”? 🙂
Seriously, in light of his past career, who here believes that Mario is doing all this pro bono? Leopard, spots, etc.
Well now you are making progress. You are admitting what Gray said. No one cares if you thnk he is wrong as you misrepresent all the authority you cite. Gray and the opinion of the majority of the court counts, your opinion does not. And you canrepeat over and over that Gray naturalized WKA all you want. Anyone who can read can see he did not as he said clear as can be:
“Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.”
Again, is there some problem with your reding skills you want to tell us about?
No one ever said they were naturalized. You are making stuff up as usual. Shhow me one person who ever said that.
Wow, going back to the capital “C” argument. How pathetic. No one has ever, ever said a “Ciziten of the United States” means a naturalized citizen. Such would mean that a natural born citizen cuold not be in Congress nor would be covered under the mulitude of treaties and statutes which only include the term “Citizen.” Half the authority you cite only uses the word “citizen.” Justice Waite himself there were two ways to become a citizen, the natural born citizenship clause and the naturalization clause. See, two types of citizens. Duh! Sorry, calling someone a “citizen” does not mean thay are not a natural born citizen, it means they are either natural born or naturalzied. For example, Waite never called Minor a natural born citizen and repeatedly referred to native born children of citizens as “citizens” even though he said they were lso natural born.
You cornered yourself with your dumb statements about McClure and now are resorting to an argument you cannot show a single person in history to support. It really is easier to admit you said something stupid and move on. But you will just keep tripling down on stupid.
oh the irony!
despite coming here and waving de vattel and minor around (as you seem to have a habit of doing ad nausium) and being told you would fail again, you still went ahead and failed as we predicted and as you have consistantly done to date with this subject.
president obama is still your president, and another court has shown your aguements to have less substance than a badly made merangue.
but thanks for the entertainent. i’ve been grinning for ages with this one 😀
That would be “meringue” but shall we settle for blancmange? 🙂
Show where anyone in the case disussed who was a citiZen. No one did. The question presented presumed citizen and the entire legal discussion revovled around dthe rights of a ccitizen living in an enemy country. Marshall is clear as day on why he was siting Vattel and it had nothing to do with who was a citizen. Sorry, again plain English.
Again, you a claiming he is saying something no one ever said. Nothing in that quote and nothing in the quotes of Justices Taney, Curtis or Rhodes, nor the member of Congress who spoke about this, nor any of the multitude of dictionaries and treaties discussing this ever made a distinction between europeans and blacks in who can be naturalized. The fact remains that you cannot find anyone who ever said anyone born in the US was naturalized other than your anonymous writer.
i can live with that 😀
Indeed, that’s funny language for a lawyer. A court never performs any real act, it simply rules what has been the correct interpretation of the law and the facts all along.
If A buys a car from B and then sues B for breach of contract because A paid the money but B didn’t hand over the car, and the court finds in favour of A, it does not mean “the court sold the car to A” or “the court created a contract between A and B”. That’s layman-speak.
Same with Wong – the court simply ruled that Wong was a citizen at birth. Wong didn’t have to naturalize, and he especially wasn’t “naturalized by the court”. The court just stated what was the case all along, since Wong’s birth.
It’s amazing to what lows Mario has to stoop. His ramblings are already indistinguishable from those of a crank layperson with no concept of how the legal system works.
Hey! I’m a crank layperson with no
conceptformal background of how the legal system works.Is that a backhanded slap at me?
Your arguments are “absurd”. Guess who said that?
Need a hint?
How then did George Washington meet the 14-year residency requirement? According to your theory, no one was eligible to be President until July 4, 1790.
Just ’cause I know it annoys Mario, I repeat a little one act play of what would happen if Mario ever ACTUALLY reached the SC….
Hey Mario, remember how persuasive you were at CAAFLOG during the Lakin debacle…?
Mario meets The Supremes….
Justice Alito: Mr Apuzzo, I would….
Mario: Esquire
Justice Alito: I beg your pardon
Mario: It’s Mr Appuzzo Esquire, I’m a lawyer you know.
Justice Alito: I am fully aware you are a lawyer Mr Apuzzo, you’re here arguing a case.
Mario: It’s important to get the terminology right, I paid good money for the Esq.
Justice Scalia: OK already, we get it, the Esq is given lets move on.
Justice Alito: Thanks Tony, moving on, Mr Apuzzo, your case is one that seeks….
Mario: I object
Justice Alito: What ! What do you mean you object, I’m trying to describe your case how can you object to that?
Mario: They are here !!!
Justice Scalia: What, what are you talking about, who is here..?
Mario: Them, those two, over there in the black robes
Justice Thomas: We all wear black robes, that’s all I’m saying and it’s not dicta.
Justice Roberts: Sammy, what’s he saying, look can we hurry up, she who must be obeyed has a long Honey-Do list for me for Christmas
Justice Alito: Mr Apuzzo, just WHAT or WHO are you objecting to?
Mario: Those two there, (points wildly)
Justice Alito: From your frenetic semaphore I take it you mean Justices Sotomayer and Kagan
Mario: Yeah, them two, shouldn’t be here
Justice Kagan: I got this Sammy, OY, paisan, what’s your problem with me, ’cause I’m a woman, ’cause I use Jewish words or ’cause I’m from Noo Yawk. Well, spit it out, don’t keep me waiting.
Mario: You didn’t recuse yourselves that’s why AND YOU KNOW WHY !!!
Justice Kagan: No Joisey, I don’t “know why” why don’t you enlighten Sonia, me and the boys
Mario: You were nominated by the Usurper so you’re tainted, begone by the power of Vattel vested in me.
Justice Sotomayer: Vatell…Vattel, what’s he babbbling about, anyone..?
Justice Kennedy: I seem to remember something from. .no not that’s it ..no…Don’t they make childrens toys? Is this a consumer safety case? I thought it was an electoral issue?
Mario: NO not Mattel, Vattel, Vattel he is the most significant contributor to the Constitution and defined Natural Born Citizen, its’ all in my briefs
Justice Ginsburg: I remember, part of a pop quiz back in ’56 at Harvard, “Who was cited the LEAST in the Federalist Papers but had a minor input on international relation definitions in the Constitution”, no one got it, we couldn’t even agree how his name was spelled or his nationality. Nasty ideas but a creature of his time.
Justice Breyer: Oh no..Johnny, he’s a bloody Birther, what in the name of Beelzebubs left nut are we doing with this. We had this chat over 2 years ago
Justice Kagan: A Birfer…A Joisy Birfer..A Joisy Birfer who things he can tell ME to recuse myself? Sammy, did you set this up?
Justice Alito: I’m sorry, a friend asked if I could have a look, I owed him a favor, what can I say. Maybe when I saw all the clerks sending his brief around as a punk’d email I should have looked a little closer.
Mario: I demand they recuse themselves it’s a plot by Soros.
Justice Scalia: Shut it….Sammy, I get it, I understand but really, Birfoons in the court, we had this out when that Mad Cow Orly was around, no Birfoons except at the Christmas party for light entertainment.
Justice Alito: Sorry all, I’ll make it up for everyone in the Christmas present
Mario: But..
Justice Roberts: Can it “esquire”, frivolous case, inherently valeless, a waste of this courts time, what say you ? Show of hands..OK done
Mario: But my case..it’s a Konstitutional Krisis.!!
Justice Roberts: Can it or the sanctions here will make Orly swoon. Bailiff, escort “Esquire” from the courts and if he gives you any trouble……
Mario: (voice receding) Let me FEEEENISH
Is there a video of this NJ case available that has better audio? Or a transcript? Some people seem to be able to hear and understand what is being said, but I can’t.
See http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/05/new-jersey-purpura-appeal-filed/#comment-187444 for a possible answer.
Keith,
You said: Is not “Calvin’s Case” not a evidence?
Yes, it is. And if you study the history of Calvin’s Case, you will find out that Parliament was not willing to naturalize the post-nati Calvin, who was born in Scotland to alien parents. So the interested parties set up a legal case in which they let Lord Coke and the courts naturalize Calvin from the moment of birth.
Justice Gray did the same thing as Lord Coke, naturalized Wong, who was born to alien parents, from the moment of birth.
ballantine,
Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that a “Citizen of the United States” is eligible to be President only if he/she has that character as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution. Hence, under that clause, anyone born after the adoption of the Constitution has to be a “natural born Citizen” to be eligible to be president.
This clause informs us that there are two types of “citizens,” a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States.”
The Founders and Framers did not say “natural born Citizen of the United States” like they said “Citizen of the United States.” That is because a “natural born Citizen” was a national citizen, a member of the national republic and not just a “citizen” of one of the several states. A “citizen” of one of the states could obtain that character through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution or otherwise by satisfying the naturalization laws of any one of the states. All these “Citizens of the United States” were considered as having been naturalized either by the Revolution or by state naturalization statutes.
Starting with the Naturalization Act of 1790, Congress also added to the “Citizens of the United States” through the exclusive naturalization powers given to it by Article I, Section 8, Clause 4. Congress again exercised this naturalization power in the Civil Rights Act of 1866 (covering persons born in the United States) and even by having the Fourteenth Amendment citizenship clause passed (covering persons born in the United States and also those born abroad). Congress continues to exercise its naturalization powers today and to add to or modify the numbers of “citizens of the United States.” See 8 U.S.C. Section 1401 et seq.
Under the scheme set up by the Founders and Framers, to be a “natural born Citizen,” the person had to satisfy the definition of a “natural born Citizen” as provided by the law of nations which became our national law and was incorporated into Article III “Laws of the United States.” See Article I, Section 8, Clause 10 which expressly refers to the law of nations; Rutgers v. Waddington (1784) (Alexander Hamilton argued that the law of nations was part of the “common law” and that the decisions of the New York Legislature must be consistent with the law of nations. Hamilton used Vattel as the standard for defining the law of nations); Respublica v. De Longchamps, 1 U.S. 111 (Pa. Ct. of Oyer & Terminer 1784) (“This is a case of first impression in the United States. It must be determined on the principles of the law of nations. This law, in its full extent, is part of the law of this State, and is to be collected from the practice of different Nations, and the authority of writers.” Id. at 114. The Attorney General argued that the law of nations “compose a part of the law of the land.” Id. 113); In 1789, the Continental Congress expressly resolved that the United States would cause the “‘law of nations to be strictly observed.’” 14 Journals of the Continental Congress 1774-1789, at 635 (1909), cited in Harold Hongju Koh, Is International Law Really State Law? 111 Harv. L. Rev. 1824-25 (1998); Ross v. Rittenhouse, 2 U.S. 160, 162 (1792) (In 1792, the supremacy of the law of nations within the United States was affirmed by Chief Justice McKean in
Ross v. Rittenhouse where he said: “The Congress on the 15th of January, 1780, resolved (inter alia) ‘that the trials in the Court of Appeals be according to the usage of nations, and not by Jury.’ This has been the practice in most nations, but the law of nations, or of nature and reason, is in arbitrary states enforced by the royal power, in others, by the municipal law of the country; which latter may, I conceive, facilitate or improve the execution of its decisions, by any means they shall think best, provided the great universal law remains unaltered”); Ware v. Hylton, 3 Dall. 199. 199, 281 (1796) (Upon independence from Great Britain, the United States “were bound to receive the law of nations, in its modern state of purity and refinement); The Nereide, U.S. v. 388, 423 (1815), Chief Justice Marshall suggested that the “Court is bound by the law of nations, which is part of the law of the land.” The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring); Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830); Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830); Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) (J. Daniels concurring); Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875); M. J. Glennon, Constitutional Diplomacy (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press 1990), at 245 (“The courts have always considered the law of nations to be part of the law of the United States”); Michael D. Ramsey, The Law of Nations as a Constitutional Obligation, http://www.law.georgetown.edu/internationalhrcolloquium/documents/RamseyPaper.doc. (Provides many historical sources and much case law showing how committed the Founders and Framers were to the law of nations during the yearly years of the nation); Akhil Reed Amar, America’s Constitution: A Biography, p. 27 (Random House 2005) (Indeed, The Law of Nations was widely read and cited in revolutionary America); Jordan J. Paust, In Their Own Words: Affirmations of the Founders, Framers, and Early Judiciary Concerning the Binding Nature of the Customary Law of Nations, University of California, Davis Vol. 14:2, p. 205 (2008) (provides an exhaustive list of case law, authorities, and other sources showing that the Founders and Framers saw the people, Congress, the President, and the States to be bound by the law of nations and considered the law of nations as part of the “Laws of the United States”).
Hence, under Article I, a Representative or Senator had to be at least a “Citizen of the United States” for 7 and 9 years, respectively. This was, of course, a minimum requirement, for it would be absurd to think that a “natural born Citizen,” who could be president, could not be a Senator or Representative. For those born after the adoption of the Constitution wanting to be President, they had to be “natural born Citizens,” by satisfying the definition of such a “citizen” under the law of nations which became part of our national law and incorporated in Article III “Laws of the United States” and which Minor called “common law.” As Minor and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898) confirmed, that definition was a child born in the country to citizen parents.
CAAFlog redux.
Still struggling with reading comprehension. Poor Mario… But now we know that he tends to struggle in general with making coherent arguments.
I am not sure who recorded the video, but posting it helps understand more and more…
Ms Hill looked great as usual 😉
Poor Mario… Of course we know that such ‘naturalization’ does not really exist. We do know that English Common Law however considered any child born on soil, even to two alien parents, to be natural born. Such was the common law in our early republic and thus the term natural born, which needs to be understood from its common law usage is clear and, as the Court in US v WKA observed, guides us in understanding how the Founders used that term.
The courts have continued to understand this ever since this precedential ruling and rejected that children born on US soil can be naturalized.
Mario still has to address these simple facts.
The “Law of Nations” or “international law” does not permit restrictions on the ability to hold office, including the highest office:
1. Most countries, including all of the other advanced democracies do NOT have such restrictions. Any adult citizen can hold the highest office.
2. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which reflects the basic principles of international law and to which the US is a signatory states in Article 21:
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
Denying all citizens the right to run for President is a violation of international law. The NBC clause is thus illegal under the Laws of Nations.
Except Gray specifically said he did not naturalize Wong. And the Court have distinguished over and over and over a citizen by birth under the 14th Amemdment from a natualized citizen. The terms of the Amendment make such distinction as di the framer of such Amendment. Gray said a person born in the US did not need to be naturalized and Rogers v. Bellie said the same thing. In fact, no court has ever said a citizen by birth under the 14th Amendment was naturalized. Why do birthers make claims when they cannot cite a single authority in history to support such claims?
And, of course, no court has ever said a citizaen by birth under the 14th Amendment was different from a natural born citizen because Wong Kim Ark made clear they meant the same thing, at least for people who actually read the case:
With respect to the NBC clause:
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion [p663] that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
With respect ot the 14th Amendment:
“The Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes.”
For dumb birthers, that is the definition of natural born subject, the same thing the court just said defined who was a natual born citizen. Duh! You really can’t make this stuff up.
Mario: The court finds you WITHOUT MERIT. Sounds good to me..
http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/opinions/a4478-11.pdf
Of course, no one has ever said that other than you. Everyone else says there are two types of citizens, natural born and naturalized, including Justice Waite and Gray. It is sad that people resort to redefining terms in a manner that has no historical support in order to win an argument. Let’s look at what Mario’s silly interpreatation means:
“No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States….” US Constitution
“No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States…” US Constitution
“And the trial of issues in fact in the Supreme Court in all actions at law against citizens of the United States shall be by jury.” Judiciary Act of 1789.
“the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens.” Naturalization Act of 1790.
“And the Creek nation do hereby relinquish all claims to any part of the territory inhabited or claimed by the citizens of the United States, in conformity with the said treaties.” Creek Treaty of 1790
“That if any citizen or citizens of the United States shall contrary to the true intent and meaning or this act, take on board, receive or transport any such persons, as above described in this act…” Slave Trade Act of 1794.
“If any citizen of the united states shall, within the territory or jurisdiltion of the same, accept and exercise a commission to serve a foreign prince or state in war, by land or sea, the person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor…” Act of 1794
“and the children of citizens of the United States born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Naturalization Act of 1795
“That nothing in this act shall be construed to prevent any trade or intercourse with Indians living on lands surrounded by settlements of the citizens of the United States, and being within the ordinary jurisdiction of any of the individual states.” Indian Act of 1796
” That if any citizen or citizens of the United States shall, without the limits of the same, fit out and arm, or attempt to fit out and arm, or procure to be fitted out and armed, or shall knowingly aid or be concerned in the furnishing, fitting out, or arming any private ship or vessel of war, with intent that such ship or vessel shall be employed to cruise or commit hostilities upon the subjects, citizens, or property of any prince or state with whom the United States are at peace, or upon the citizens of the United States, or their property, or shall take the command, or enter on board of any such ship or vessel for the intent aforesaid, or shall purchase an interest in any vessel so fitted out and armed, with a view to share in the profits thereof, such person or persons so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be adjudged guilty of a high misdemeanor, and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars, and imprisonment not exceeding ten years.” Privateering Act of 1797.
“And in consequence of the stipulation’s contained in the fourth article, his Catholic Majesty will permit the citizens of the United States for the space of three years from this time, to deposit their merchant dises and effects in the port of New-Orleans,” Treaty with Spain of 1795
“Should the cruiser of Algiers capture any vessel, having citizens of the United States of North-America on board, they having papers ta prove they are really so, they and their property shall be immediately discharged.” Treaty with Algiers of 1796
“If any citizen or citizens of the united states shall, without the limits of the same, arm, or attempt to fit out and are, or procure to be fitted out and armed, or shall knowingly aid ..” Act of 1796
“If any person, being a citizen of the united states, whether he be actually resident, or abiding within the united states, or in any foreign country, shall, without the permission or authority of the government of the united states, directly or indirectly, commence, or carry on, any verbal or written correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government….’ Act of 1799
“In like manner the citizens of the United States of America may frequent all the coasts and countries of his Majesty the King of Prussia, and reside and trade there, in all sorts of produce, manufactures and merchandise…” Treaty with Prussia of 1799.
“It shall be free for the citizens of the United States to carry on what commerce they please in the kingdom of Tunis, without any opposition.” Treaty with Tunis of 1799.
“The Cherokee nation agree, that the Kentucky road, running between the Cumberland mountain and the Cumberland river, where the same shall pass through the Indian land, shall bean open and free road for the use of the citizens of the United States in the like manner as the road from Southwest point to Cumberland river.” Cherokee Treaty of 1799.
“That from and after the termination of the war in which the United States are now engaged with Great Britain, it shall not be lawful to employ, on board of any public or private vessels of the United States, any person or persons except citizens of the United States, or persons of color, natives of the United States.” Act of 1813
Does anyone really think the term “citizens of the United States” excluded natural born citizens in any of these circumstances? Of course not. With respect to the Constitution, Mario has to argue that while his interpreation would literally exclude natural born citizens from serving in congress, we are supposed to infer they were meant to be included or that we should read an “at least” or “at minimum requirement” into the language. Of course, when you have to re-write the Constitution to support your interpretation, you should know you are wrong. A person 40 years old has attained the age of 25 and hence there is no need to read an “at least” requirement into the language. In additiion, at the time those Constitutional provisions were written, there was no NBC clause and hence no difference between natural born and naturalized citizens and hence his “at least” or “at a minimum” argument makes no sense at all. No, Mario has re-defined terms in a manner no legal authority in history has done and the plain menaing of such interpreation is that natural born citizens are not eligilbe for Congress or covered under a multitude of early statutes inteneded to apply to all citizens.
And do you not know that all nouns are capitlaized in the original Constitution? The argument that a capitilized term changes the meaning of the term is “sovereign citizen” territory and is too silly to even address.
So,
The finding of the court isn’t just “Mario is full of the ordure”….it’s “Mario REMAINS full of the ordure”.
So sad, so predictable….waiting for Mario’s inevitable…”I WON, I CAME SECOND !!!!! TRAITORS !!!!!
Well, yes, natural born and natural-ized, which together make up ‘citizen of the United States’. Your point ?
Poor Mario, it took the court not too long to accept fully the ALJ’s ruling
Ouch… Good job Mario…
Game. Set. Match.
“We have carefully considered appellants’ arguments and
conclude that these arguments are without merit. R. 2:11-
3(e)(1)(E). We affirm substantially for the reasons set forth
in ALJ Jeff S. Masin’s thorough and thoughtful written opinion
of April 10, 2012, as adopted by the Secretary on April 12,
2012.
Affirmed”
http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/opinions/a4478-11.pdf
ALJ Masin said:
“It is unnecessary to reinvent the wheel here; the subject has been thoroughly reviewed and no new legal argument on this issue has been offered here. ”
“…The petitioners’ legal position on this issue, however well intentioned, has no merit in law. Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr.Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a “natural born Citizen” regardless of the status of his father.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/88916012/Purpura-Moran-Initial-Decision-of-ALJ-Masin-New-Jersey-Obama-Ballot-Challenge-4-10-2012
And this part
Ouch ouch ouch
What did you say again Mario….
Isn’t that about a British sloop taken as a prize in war? Or International law?
“When the United States declared their independence, they were bound to receive the law of nations, in its modern state of purity and refinement. By every nation, whatever is its form of government, the confiscation of debts has long been considered disreputable: and, we know, that not a single confiscation of that kind stained the code of any of the European powers, who were engaged in the war, which our revolution produced. Nor did any authority for the confiscation of debts proceed from Congress (that body, which clearly possessed the right of confiscation, as an incident of the powers of war and peace) and, therefore, in no instance can the act of confiscation be considered as an act of the nation.”
Isn’t this more International Law?
“The Nereide has not that centaur-like appearance which has been ascribed to her. She does not rove over the ocean hurling the thunders of war while sheltered by the olive branch of peace. She is not composed in part of the neutral character of Mr. Pinto and in part of the hostile character of her owner. She is an open and declared belligerent, claiming all the rights, and subject to all the dangers of the belligerent character. She conveys neutral property which does not engage in her warlike equipments or in any employment she may make of them, which is put on board solely for the purpose of transportation and which encounters the hazard incident>
Isn’t this more International Law?
No one disputes that with regards to internation affairs the US incorporated the law of nations. Under the law of nations countries get to decide citizenship. That’s why England could practice the prinicple of jus soli and also be bound by the law of nations.
Something ‘lost’ on Mario. But with today’s loss, Mario has other things to worry about… Given Purpura’s inability to understand defeat, I predict an appeal and rejection by the NJ Supreme Court by the end of the year…
Yes, a pesky matter which Mario consistently fails to address. Obviously, the Founders considered anyone who was born within the 13 colonies to be natural-born citizens. Washington met the residency requirement because he had lived in the colonies for 57 years.
You lost Mario. Time to move on with your life. Seriously. You got nothing.
This is all he has, besides drunk drivers. Well, that and determining who entered the intersection first.
He’ll keep up his rants, to keep that PayPal button clicking. As I wrote before, it’s a bogus dog and pony show, but that doesn’t stop the rubes from clicking.
That’s why conservatives and libertarians are trying to destroy public education. It worked for Adolf.
LOL, Mario, looks like you picked the wrong day to say that.
Hey Mario –
R. 2:11-3(e)(1)(E) – that some or all of the arguments made are without sufficient merit to warrant discussion in a written opinion
Hahahahahaha
Ballantine,
(1) Your argument on “Citizen of the United States” has no merit. Of course, all stautues and treaties written by Congress were written to apply to all “citizens,” whether “natural born Citizens” or “Citizens of the United States.” You will note that sometimes Congress said in the statutes that you cited and quoted “citizens or citizens of the United States.” For example:
“That if any citizen or citizens of the United States shall contrary to the true intent and meaning or this act, take on board, receive or transport any such persons, as above described in this act…” Slave Trade Act of 1794.
“If any citizen or citizens of the united states shall, without the limits of the same, arm, or attempt to fit out and are, or procure to be fitted out and armed, or shall knowingly aid ..” Act of 1796
“That if any citizen or citizens of the United States shall, without the limits of the same, fit out and arm, or attempt to fit out and arm, or procure to be fitted out and armed, or shall knowingly aid or be concerned in the furnishing, fitting out, or arming any private ship or vessel of war, with intent that such ship or vessel shall be employed to cruise or commit hostilities upon the subjects, citizens, or property of any prince or state with whom the United States are at peace, or upon the citizens of the United States, or their property, or shall take the command, or enter on board of any such ship or vessel for the intent aforesaid, or shall purchase an interest in any vessel so fitted out and armed, with a view to share in the profits thereof, such person or persons so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be adjudged guilty of a high misdemeanor, and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars, and imprisonment not exceeding ten years.” Privateering Act of 1797.
If “citizens of the United States” included also “natural born Citizens,” then why did Congress also include “citizens” in addition to “citizens of the United States” in these statutes?” They included “citizens” also because they wanted to show that there were “citizens” in addition to the “citizens of the United States” class. These were the “natural born Citizens.”
(2) You said: “And do you not know that all nouns are capitlaized in the original Constitution? The argument that a capitilized term changes the meaning of the term is “sovereign citizen” territory and is too silly to even address.”
You missed my point here. I did not say that the capitalization of the “C” in “Citizen” in the Constitution changes its meaning. I am well aware that the nouns in the Constitution are capitalized and I am surprised that you would think that I would make such an absurd argument. But what I did say is that, regarding James MClure, U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson capitalized the “C” in “Citizen” in his Certificate to James Madison. It is rather unusual that someone would capitalized the “C” in “Citizen” unless he or she was making specific reference to how the word is written in Article I or II, i.e., “Citizen of the United States.” For example, not even Congress capitalized the “c” whenever it wrote the word “citizen” in statutes or treaties. Hence, by Justice Johnson capitalizing the “C” in his Certificate, we can reasonably conclude that he was specifically referring to an Article I or II “Citizen of the United States” and not an Article II “citizen of the United States.” Again, apart from the evidence that the James Madison Administration ruled that McClure was a naturalized citizen under the Naturalization Act of 1892, this shows that Justice Johnson found McClure to be a “Citizen of the United States,” and not a “natural born Citizen.”
TL;DR. So did you win your case or what?
Per the NJ Appelate Court, Mr Apuzzo, it is YOUR arguments that are without merit.
By the way, while you were speaking, the judges looked that they would have preferred to be getting a root canal from Orly Taitz.
Honestly, this has got to be the stupidest darn thing I have ever read from Mario — and believe me, I’ve read more than my fair share of stupid arguments made by Mr. Apuzzo.
Congress did NOT (as you claim) say “citizens or citizens of the United States” — in ANY of the statutes you cited.
In each and every one of these, Congress said “CITIZEN” (singular) or “CITIZENS” (plural) “of the United States.”
In the English language, that is shorthand for
“citizen of the United States, or citizens of the United States.”
If you wanted to make the case that you are lacking in basic intelligence, you’re doing a really good job of it.
I was delighted by Mario’s performance. It was his best work since Donkey Kong. Specifically, his discourse on the law of nations contained more twisted word play than “Waiting for Godot.” Unfortunately for Mario, the judges weren’t into Absurdism.
So Mario, do tell, did the court buy into a single one of your personal opinions and fact free ideas…..?
That would be…….?
John Woodman,
You continue with your idiocy. Give me an example of another noun in any statute by Congress when they state both the singular and the plural. You are pathetic, John Woodman.
I agree with John, this is your dumbest argument ever. Is your post supposed to actually make sense? So capitalizing “c” doesn’t change the meaning of “citizen of the United States” but then you says article I has a different meaning than the same phrase under the judiciary and other acts which cannot in any way be limited to naturalized citizens all because you say so. The lengths you will go to to not admit you are wrong. As I have pointed out, such phrase was used over and over in contexts which cannot mean just naturalized citizen by courts, by Congress and by pretty much every legal scholars. This would include article I of the Constitution where you now have to re-write the plain language or say they were implying something they didn’t say. Are you really saying the framers would say Congressmen had to be naturalized citizens and expect us to infer that such included natural born as well? Do you think they could not write English? And since you cannot name a single person in history which agrees with such silly interpretation, who do you think you are fooling? Do you really think Constitutional law is about making up your own definitions of terms?
And suggesting there is other evidence from the Madison adminsitration saying you are right? Are you really declusional? Monroe said the affidavits proving McClure was born in the US were sufficient to prove he was a citizen. That is jus soli and the proof provided would have been irrelevant to proving naturalization under any statute existing at such time. It would only be relevant under the English rule which Madison said applied in the US. It really would be easier to just admit you were wrong rather than making such embarrassing posts.
Gorefan,
You cite and quote: “R. 2:11-3(e)(1)(E) – that some or all of the arguments made are without sufficient merit to warrant discussion in a written opinion.”
Now that is really funny. You, your coterie, and I have been writing about whether Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen” for four years. What a contradiction in realities. They say that the truth lies in the contemporaneous.
Who are you kidding?
Why should I? The meaning of the phrase would be quite clear to any 6th-grader of even average intelligence.
You have become a caricature of yourself, Mario, when you publicly make the most idiotic of conceivable statements, and then when the idiocy is pointed out, claim that the person pointing out the obvious is “pathetic.”
Oh, Mario, how pathetic can you get?
It took a 30-second Google search to come up with many examples. Here’s one, from 17 USC 304:
“In the case of a grant executed by a person or persons other than the author…”
This is an even dumber argument. And, the most important statutes I cited like the judiciary acts and the naturalization acts did not include the single and plural. There really are no words any more to describe the stupidity here.
My coterie appears to include the entire United States legal system.
Is there a point when an attorney has to tell his client that further appeal is fruitless?
You mean the entire United States legal system for the past 220 years.
ballantine,
(1) The “Citizen of the United States” was written by Justice Johnson. You just don’t get it.
(2) This is the lie that you wrote: “Monroe said the affidavits proving McClure was born in the US were sufficient to prove he was a citizen.”
Here is the truth as confirmed by James Monroe’s own letter of November 27, 1811 to Joel Barlow, Esq., in which he quotes U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson thus: “‘the said affidavits and Certificates are sufficient to establish the fact that James M McClure above named is a Citizen of the United States.’”
Do you have your glasses on, ballantine? It says “Citizen of the United States.” This was written in 1811, which is not that many years after the Constitution was ratified. This Certificate was written by a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. I think you would agree with me that when a Supreme Court Justice writes an official document, he or she is very careful in all words used. Have you read Article II, Section 1, Clause 5? It says that a “Citizen of the United States” is eligible to be president if he had that character as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution. It also says that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, one needs to be a “natural born Citizen.” Did I write this in plain English, Professor ballantine?
Honesty check, Mario. Are you ready to admit that you were wrong and that your challenge has been met?
(from 17 USC 304:
“In the case of a grant executed by a person or persons other than the author…”)
John Woodman
“In the case of a grant executed by a person or persons other than the author…”
I need the full context to see if “person” is one thing and “persons other than the author” is another.
Maybe you can share with us your other examples, too.
gorefan,
“My coterie appears to include the entire United States legal system.”
Thank you for making my point even stronger.
ballantine,
You really are out doing yourself:
“You mean the entire United States legal system for the past 220 years.”
I must extend a thank you also to you.
Is that argument supposed to make sense? A citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted were citizens of the states which included natural born citizens, naturalized citizens and persons who adhered to our cause. No one ever stated all such persons you naturalized. Why do you just make stuff up? Justice Johnson used the term “citizen of the United States” which I showed appeared in numerous statutes that in no way could be limited to naturalized citizens. The argument the the Constitution would say that Congressmen had to be naturalized and we are supposed to infer that such is really not what they meant is really too stupid an argument to even address. Please show us a single person who said a “citizen of the United States” meant a naturalized citizen. There is no one and such is not a plausible definition under the Constitution or our early statutes and treaties. I guess you can just keep saying you are right because you say you are right. I rather suggest you actually do some research and find that everyone said there were two types of US citizens, natural born and naturalized (in additional to the original grandfathered ones, that is).
You have no point.
Take the advice of Judge Masin stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It didn’t work for George Collins in 1898 and its not working for you in 2012.
Yes, a citizen of the united states, which could mean natural-born or natural-ized. By virtue of his native birth, he was the former, which makes sense because we know that one cannot naturalize children born on US soil, they gain, under common law citizenship my virtue of birth on soil. The 14th Amendment reflects this. Natural-born (no statute, birth on soil), natural-ized (statute, born alien on foreign soil)
So have you recovered from the quick smack down yet?
Here we have the evidence on how John Woodman reacts when he has no evidence with which to respond:
No. 1: “Why should I? The meaning of the phrase would be quite clear even to a 6th-grader of even average intelligence.
You have become a caricature of yourself, Mario, when you publicly make the most idiotic of conceivable statements, and then when the idiocy is pointed out, claim that the person pointing out the obvious is “pathetic.”
He made this statement at 4:58 p.m.
No. 2: Then he finds what he thinks is evidence, and he presents the evidence:
“Here’s one, from 17 USC 304: ‘In the case of a grant executed by a person or persons other than the author…’”
This he did at 5:01 p.m.
So now we have solid evidence of how John Woodman behaves when he has no evidence. See No. 1. And how he behaves when he thinks he has evidence. See No. 2.
What have we seen more of concerning John Woodman, No. 1 or No. 2? Anybody who has followed John Woodman knows that it is No. 1.
Source: Joseph Story, Commentaries
Citizen of the United State clearly does not mean naturalized only.
Article 1 Section 2
I guess, your argument is that only naturalized citizens can be elected representative?
Your reading comprehension is as usual abominable… Stop embarrassing yourself Mario, please. This is getting too painful to watch.
How ironic, are you now confessing to your own ignorance??… We have sufficient evidence of how you behave Mario and the Courts were not impressed. That my friend must sting. Just try to not project too much.
Actually, he made a fair point. And when are you going to provide any evidence to support your defintion of Citizens of the United States? You have none. I have pointed out that many of the statutes I cited didn’t have singular and plural and hence your argument is worthless. So, explain to us how the Judiciary Act and Naturalization Act, perhas the 2 most important acts of the 1st Congress only applied to naturalized citizens. Explain why you would make these statement without being able to cite a single authority to support them? I can make up my own definition to terms as well and insist I am right and everyone else is wrong. Such is not a legal argument.
Right, Mario gets to make foolish claims just like in McClure but never seems to be able to support them with reason or logic, let alone factual references. The fact that McClure was considered a native citizen sort of destroys his argument and the premise that one can be naturalized by birth on soil is unsupportable and remains unsupported and in fact contradicted by legal precedents.
Just so you realize what a benchslap this actually is, R. 2:11-3(e)(1)(E) states:
Ouch
Mario appears to be sliding into SovCit magic language where words have a secret meaning that tells us what we want to hear.
Okey doke. I am trying, one last time, to make clear what the courts have said and what people here have been telling you. You have been respectful with me, and I appreciate that, but this is it, I am done trying to convince you on this topic.
The NBC as citizen at birth is pure, elegant. Likewise, the Constitution, all these court rulings, decisions and laws make perfect sense if natural born citizen means simply citizen at birth. That explains why the Courts have used natural born and native born interchangeably within the same document. It is in line with rules England had for natural born subject. This definition makes perfect sense with the courts consistent rulings that there are only two types of citizens in the US, natural and naturalized. Also, both the WKA and Minor decisions make sense together. Nothing has to change. It also explains why you don’t use any quotes dating after 1898, the year of the WKA decision.
Your theory OTH has to take something otherwise not explicit in the Constitution, and though it had been the law in the colonies, the term natural born then had to take on a new meaning. Not just the standing of a citizen versus a subject, but the term natural born itself did, as there had been no requirement as to the citizenship of the parents. Also, your theory assumes that the Founders chose to do that with no explanation or alternative definition set forth in the Constitution. Additionally, your theory creates a third category of citizen.
Look to your favorite quote in Minor, keeping in mind what I just said.
“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/88/162/case.html
1. “…all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also.” First, it says “born in a country”, not the US. The Court was speaking generally. It also says the children became citizens. It does NOT say they became natural born citizens. The Court was using the terms interchangeably.
2. The Court goes on to say “These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” The Court uses natives and natural-born citizens interchangeably. The Court did not say NBCs were distinguished from other citizens, they were distinguished from aliens or foreigners.
3. Then the Court says “Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.” It says to include as citizens, not to include as natural born citizens. They are using these terms interchangeably again.
ballantine,
I can tell when you have no good answer. You simply resort to telling us that we only have “citizens” who are either “natural born Citizens” or naturalized. Of course, you then want us to conclude that your “citizen of the United States” is not a naturalized “citizen” which then brings you home to that “citizen” necessarily by a process of elimination being a “natural born Citizen.”
But it does not work that way because you fail to prove in the first instance that your “citizen of the United States” is not naturalized or is a “natural born Citizen.”
Such follies
nd
nbc,
Is that some Chinese code?
Yes, that’s what the authorities, legal and scholarly all point out. Surely you must have been paying attention or you would not be resorting to such poor reading comprehension.
nbc,
You said: “I guess, your argument is that only naturalized citizens can be elected representative?”
You are a bit behind. Please catch up.
It was you who was making the foolish argument that the Madison administration had called McClure to be naturalized. Now you are saying that you have no proof that citizen of the United States merely describes naturalized citizens, in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
Mario Mario… It’s this kind of horrible understanding of the English language which makes you the ridicule of the internet and now the Courts as well.
Yes, you are all over the place. But nothing coherent so far… I am glad though that you are revising your ‘arguments’… But they are not improving much
I told you that you have poor reading comprehension. What part do you fail to comprehend? Let us help you here. It’s the least we can do after you failed so miserably yesterday?
What describes a birther better? Sore loser or clueless bigot? A combination of the two?
Source: Lauterpacht, International Law Reports
Source: The Supreme Court reporter: Volumes 17-18
And the list goes on…
nbc,
One point of clarification:
Additionally, after July 4, 1776, states could make citizens from persons born in their territory. These state citizens would also fall under the category of a “citizen of the United States” and were not necessarily considered to be naturalized under any state law, especially given that with the Naturalizaation Act of 1790 the states no longer had the authority to naturalize any citizen. But if these state citizens did not meet the definition of a “natural born Citizen,” they were just “citizens of the United States.”
No evidence for this… Poor Mario, it is clear that citizens of the united states includes those born on soil, anyone born on soil, including thus those who are, born to two us citizen parents… There is NO evidence to support your foolishness.
Mario was interviewed just after the hearing
New Jersey Ballot Challenge Appeal Hearing Update From Mario Apuzzo, Esq., 5-30-12, Pt 1 of 2
New Jersey Ballot Challenge Appeal Hearing Update From Mario Apuzzo, Esq., 5-30-12, Pt 2 of 2
Poor Poor Mario… Mario even mentions the checkbook 🙂 Such a doll…
nbc and ballantine,
You keep telling us about the American passport that McClure had. Very pathetic, for that passport was not worth the value of its paper. Do you not know that McClure ended up in jail, a prisoner of the French for being a British enemy, regardless of his having that American passport?
To get out of that French jail, McClure still had to prove he was a U.S. “citizen.” He did that by showing that he was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785 to a British father who naturalized on February 20, 1786 while McClure was dwelling in the United States. Based on those facts which had been proved, U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson ruled that “agreeable to the laws and usage of the United States,” McClure was a “Citizen of the United States.” Note that “the laws and usage of the United States” does not refer to the “common law.” Rather it could have meant only a treaty, statute of Congress, or the law of nations. Since there was no treaty involved, we know he was referring to the Naturalization Act of 1802. Also, “usage of the United States” referred to the law of nations and not the English common law which only applied on the state level. So, we can see that you are wrong because in the words of Justice Johnson, McClure was declared a “Citizen of the United States” under a Congressional Act (the Naturalization Act of 1802) or the law of nations and not under any English common law. And being declared a “Citizen of the United States” under the Naturalization Act of 1802 proves that McClure was not a “natural born Citizen.” This historical record clearly proves Justice Gray wrong in what he said about the English common law prevailing in the United States on matters of citizenship after July 4, 1776 and down to the present.
Poor McClure, but the passport was granted to him because he was a native citizen and I have already shown a native citizen cannot be naturalized.
Usage… Referring to the affidavits and papers…. Furthermore it only mentions location of birth… Jus Soli…
Reading comprehension again Mario
Full quote:
nbc,
You are really begging the question. Seems that you have run out of ammo.
nbc,
Poor, poor nbc. Just cannot win the argument, can you?
nbc,
I know when you lose. Instead of showing me that I am wrong with your evidence, you rather just say I have no evidence.
That’s okay; he’s not the one losing in court.
Projecting again There is nothing in the letter that supports your claims. He did not state that according to the laws and usage of the USA he was found to be a citizen, but rather that under said laws and usage, the documentation was sufficient to establish his birth. Since the letter only mentions the location of birth, it is clearly jus soli.
Simple
…plus pathological liar.
So,
Lets see if we have this right, Mario went to court, he stuttered, blathered and whined incoherently, the court pulled his trousers down and gave him a hard spanking and then he comes here and cries pathetically “Please sir, may I have some more”.
Does anyone else see the pathetic idiocy of this?
Well, Mario may not see it as such but yes, that is what it looks like basically to me as well…
Well, if he enjoys it…
Ponder these words, Mr. Apuzzo. Repeat them over and over, make them your mantra, until you achieve inner peace. “Without merit, without merit, without merit. These arguments are without merit.”
*****
from appellate court ruling (boldface added by me):
On appeal, appellants assert that the ALJ and Secretaryerred in finding that President Obama does not have a constitutional or statutory obligation to provide evidence to the Secretary “who he is, where he was born, and that he is constitutionally eligible to occupy the office of President in order to be placed on the New Jersey primary election ballot.” In addition, appellants claim that the ALJ and the Secretary erred in finding that President Obama was born in Hawaii and that he is a “natural born citizen.” We have carefully considered appellants’ arguments and conclude that these arguments are without merit. R. 2:11-3(e)(1)(E). We affirm substantially for the reasons set forth in ALJ Jeff S. Masin’s thorough and thoughtful written opinion of April 10, 2012, as adopted by the Secretary on April 12,2012. Affirmed.
Well, Mario held out some hope…
nbc,
Poor, poor nbc. Just does not know to which “laws and usage of the United States” Justice Johnson was referring. Why do you not tell us what those “laws and usage” were.
OK Mario. What’s next? On to the NJ Supreme Court now? But wait, your arguments have no merit, so they won’t hear it. What about SCOTUS? No, they won’t hear it, nothing you’ve stated holds anything worthwhile for them to hear. Have you got something going in another state? Or, does this mean the end of the line for you?
Gee, thanks. I did not need the visual image. :0
Mario, are you trying to convince people that you are a complete idiot? Because if you are, it seems to be working.
First of all, your apparent point is to claim that I typically make assertions rather than present evidence. Anybody who has followed any of my writing on the subject knows this is as false as claiming the sky is green. For anyone who hasn’t followed my writing, I would refer them to my fifteen-plus facts-and-evidence-packed articles on the meaning of “natural born citizen” and my 221-page book on the Obama birth certificate forgery theories.
Secondly, you apparently aren’t bright enough to even notice that I didn’t even make the second post you mentioned. My original statement was accurate, and it is enough. Some things are just so idiotic that they don’t in any way warrant an example. Your claim was one of those. I stand by my statement on the matter, which was — and is — that your claim was quite idiotic enough to be identified by a 6th-grader of average intelligence as such.
It’s similar to what the court said about your recent appeal:
Affirmance Without Opinion:
(1) Civil Appeals. When in a civil appeal the Appellate Division determines that any one or more of the following circumstances exists and is dispositive of a matter submitted to the court for decision:
[. . .]
(E) that some or all of the arguments made are without sufficient merit to warrant discussion in a written opinion;
The laws and usage which allow affidavits and papers to be used to attest to the birth on soil of McClure, allowing the Court to conclude him to be a citizen because of his birth in Charleston.
Pretty simple really. Do you really have such poor reading comprehension my dear Mario? So far you are not doing too well… Did you get your sleep?
Repeat After Me,
Are you telling me that the Appellate Division did affirm the ALJ’s finding that Obama was born in Hawaii and his definition of a “natural born Citizen?”
Well, I understand that you suffer from reading comprehension problems but can you not read the ruling yourself?
Do we really have to hold your hand at every turn?
You decide… Let me know if you need some hand holding here.
Repeat after me: Mario Apuzzo, without merit.
I’m telling you that the Appellate Division agreed with the ALJ’s finding that if President Obama was born in Hawaii that he is a “natural born Citizen”. Are you having trouble understanding the court?
I am not going to stand by and let you say that unchallenged. The Appeals Court upheld what it described as ALJ Masin’s “thorough and thoughtful written opinion”. ALJ Masin said “Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr.Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a “natural born Citizen” regardless of the status of his father.”, meaning assuming he was born in HI, he is an NBC.
Both courts also said your arguments were without merit.
Mario’s reading comprehension surely cannot be that poor…?!!??
Then again, we have seen quite some whoppers so far. Perhaps English is not Mario’s strongest language?
Is English not his native language?
Is there a No Lawyer Left Behind program? Taitz, Donofrio, Kreep, Apuzzo and Berg could carpool together to special ed. classes.
Other people seem to be picking up that point. I’ll leave that to them.
But I personally think you would do better to just focus and stick with one thing they said, until you get it:
“these arguments are without merit.”
Linda,
We cannot correctly interpret Minor without looking to all the historical evidence and U.S. case law that came before it. Your interpretation is not consistent with that history and case law. You are only interpreting Minor in a way that suits your need. But there is no historical or legal foundation that supports your interpretation.
Have you noticed that John Woodman ran away from his example of “person or persons other than the author” as stated in 17 U.S.C. 304. The reason he ran away is that his example does not support his position. In the statute, “person” and “persons other than the author” refer to different entities, not just plurals of the same entity.
I asked John Woodman to check this out and to provide his other examples that he gather in “30 seconds.” He knows he was wrong so he plays dead, hoping the matter will just blow over.
That’s John Woodman for you.
Majority Will,
What’s the matter? Are you afraid to tell us what the court’s decision means?
Such as Lynch v Clarke or the many scholarly works which all confirm that the doubts that Minor expressed over the status of children born to alien parents was unwarranted and was resolved in US v Wong Kim Ark
Well, we have see Mario Apuzzo in action. Compared to John who has an excellent record in supporting his claims, I have some worries that Mario’s comments should be seen as rather ironic.
John ran away? The only running away I’ve seen is how quickly you run away whenever you’ve been asked direct questions. Or how fast you run away when you’re asked to back up your assertions with actual court cases. Running away is your specialty Mario, John is just tired of trying to teach someone who refuses to learn. As you’ve failed to learn from the NJ Appellate Division in your latest failure.
Linda,
Why are you and Dr. Conspiracy so afraid to say that the ALJ found Obama to be born in Hawaii? Could he not have made such a simple finding four years into the question of his place of birth? Do you have any doubts that he was born in Hawaii?
It’s clearly a similar example to citizen or citizens of the United States.
Sigh…
It’s not about being afraid but about being accurate Mario. Perhaps that’s a concept slightly outside our comfort zone but it is clear that the ALJ never found Obama to be born in Hawaii other than for the purpose of addressing your foolish tow citizen parent argument, assuming that he was, since otherwise your argument did not really make any sense.
Reading comprehension again Mario… Poor Mario, what is so hard to understand here about what the ALJ did and did not say. Why do you not quote the part that you have misinterpreted…
After all, you make a lot of noise when you believe others do not deliver the goods… What’s good for the goose is good for the gander…
Ta ta.
There is in my mind no doubt about President Obama’s birth in Hawaii but that was not an issue the ALJ could address because no evidence had been introduced either way, nor was such evidence really required to be entered.
Meritless my friend, remember the word…
Remind me, did you ever claim where you think Obama was actually born and provide any evidence backing up that claim? Seems to me, lacking evidence that he was born anywhere else and since you, the appellant, never made a claim to where he was actually born, they are left with no choice but to assume Hawaii.
Did we forget that part?
It means they rejected your arguments.
Rinse and repeat.
Jim,
I see that you are like Linda. What is the problem with the ALJ finding that Obama was born in Hawaii? Is that not the truth?
Not at all.
“these arguments are without merit.”
I’m just amazed some birther bigot is still paying you to be an incompetent and unfunny clown.
Jeez, Mario, how dumb can you possibly be? I was the poster of No. 2. In No. 1, John said that the English language construction was simple enough to be self-evident. I went the other route, and actually showed you an example, one which you cannot deny, so you address it by describing it dismissively (“thinks he has evidence”).
For you to try to make rhetorical hay of your own dumb mistake — well, it befits an intellect of the kind displayed at yesterday’s hearing, and as reflected in the unanimous decision handed down scant hours later.
Reading comprehension problems combined with poor logic. The issue her is accuracy about the ruling and the ALJ never made such a determination other than assume it for the purpose of addressing the two citizen parents, meritless arguments.
The Judge was not there to determine the truth of President Obama’s birth but rather to determine if your claims had any merit. They clearly did not.
Amazing…
I have no fear saying Obama was born in Hawaii. I have seen images of his BCs and read confirmations on the State of HI website and I have read the recently issued Verification.
What I do fear is misquoting a court. The ALJ did not say they found Obama was born in HI. I quoted directly from their decision. They said ““Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr.Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a “natural born Citizen” regardless of the status of his father.”
That means they basically said IF he were born in HI, he is an NBC. They were ruling on your two parent-theory, not on a certified copy of the birth certificate before them.
Your claim that the ALJ found that Obama was born in Hawaii is without merit. I said so myself in the article above.
So are you going to appeal to the NJ Supreme Court?
Do you know what a constant variable is?
I don’t think it is Mario. Show me the direct quote and opinion where he states that the President was born in Hawaii. Now, let’s see who runs away. Remember, don’t cut out any part of the complete quote where he states that the President was born in Hawaii.
Run away Mario, Run away!
Poor Poor nbc, he’s been checkmated.
He says that the laws and usage was: “The laws and usage which allow affidavits and papers to be used to attest to the birth on soil of McClure, allowing the Court to conclude him to be a citizen because of his birth in Charleston.”
You better call your supervisor because that answer really sunk you.
Do you really think that somebody is going to believe that U.S. Supreme Court Justice Johnson needed “laws and usage of the United States” to be able to use affidavits and papers in a citizenship matter? And may I ask what laws and usages may those be? Do you have some citation for us, nbc. Who do you think you are kidding, nbc?
No, Johnson only proved he was born on US soil. There is no evidence any other evidence was provided. Such evidence was irrelevant to the question of whether he was naturalized. The rest of your post is gibberish as you cannot cite anyone to support your silly interpretation. You can say Justice Gray was wrong all you want. Such opinion is the standing opinion of the Court and has been unchallenged for a century and is the law. Duh.
I don’t recall nbc being ruled against by the court today?
Mario gives new dimensions to ‘disingenuous.’
True mob lawyer techniques.
I would have responded sooner had I realized that you mistakenly addressed to John a remark that actually referred to me.
Now — HUH? Are you seriously suggesting that “In the case of a grant executed by a person or persons other than the author” does not mean
“a person other than the author or persons other than the author”
but rather means “a person [unqualified] or persons other than the author”
— in other words, that the the phrase “other than the author” applies to “persons” but not to “person”?
Please explain what drives you to this conclusion. It appears to be unsupported either on its face or in the context of the rest of the law.
The Judge was certifying to the French government that the determination was made under proper US legal standards.
Wow… It’s simple reading comprehension.
Some examples to help out Mario
and
A fool’s mate indeed…
Mario is playing checkers and imagined that he had check mated me. Foolishly, he had forgotten to do any research into the matters. I provided the context. Now he looks foolish, once again.
Oh boy, this is like taking candy from a child… But without the guilt…
My suspicion is that Mr. Apuzzo may be trying to line up all our quotes that ALJ Masin did not rule that Obama was born in Hawaii for the “benefit” of his blog’s readers. This would of course be most persuasive if it were out of context and without the part where he ruled on the two parent theory.
Any takers?
No. It means you are wrong. Your theories have no merit. Every Judge has soundly rejected your arguments and they always will, because you are wrong. You are obnoxious because you belittle people like Woodman and Doc and NBC, even though every single court decision has agreed with them, not you. That makes you look like more of a fool than your blubbering, stammering, feckless, pointless, ill-constructed, disjointed, pathetic, unconvincing, desperate, mendacious, fallacious, utterly comical performance in the NJ courtroom.
Woodman is right, has come to the same conclusions as every court ever will, and you are wrong. I know it stings, but just stamping your feet and saying everybody is wrong but you will not make it so. Obama’s lawyers are the winners, and you are the loser. Always were, always will be. Everyone knew it as soon as you started this daffy dishonorable quest. And everyone but you was right. We all predicted your suits would fail, and they did.
How, exactly, does that make us the idiots, as you are so fond of claiming? With your record you are in a poor position to be chastising anyone. You have had your sizable posterior handed to you on a platter. How exactly does that make you a legal genius?
With Mario, one can never be certain about what the next ‘argument’ may look like. But it likely involves some reading comprehension problem.
Mario cannot belittle anyone without looking even smaller himself. No worries, his insults do not really have any impact on me other than being the cause of an occasional chuckle or even a vague smile.
Since I read the decision and didn’t find anywhere in it that the ALJ determined Obama was born in Hawaii, I would be afraid someone would think me mentally incompetent if said otherwise. Being viewed as mentally incompetent is really scary. Note that the judge himself said at the hearing that he didn’t have a mug.
What’s the matter Mario, cat got your keyboard? Running away from my challenge to produce the quote where Judge Masin found that the President was born in Hawaii? Just like you ran away from John when he continually asked you to produce the quote from Tucker? It seems that you’re the expert at running away. Here you go to refresh your memory…
“Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr.Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a “natural born Citizen” regardless of the status of his father.”
He doesn’t declare that the President was born in Hawaii, He accepts your position that if the President was born in Hawaii, your argument is without merit and the President would be a “natural born Citizen”.
I’m beginning to wonder if Apuzzo really has a reading comprehension problem. Usually when something sounds wrong, I read it again more slowly. This procedure clears up many problems.
Well, a reading comprehension problem can be aggravated by confirmation bias.
What, tell me it isn’t so, Mario unable or unwilling to support his position with relevant quotes?
The humanity…
It has nothing to do with comprehension, eligibility, or the courts. It’s all about money, and it always has been. How much can they bleed from the rubes before they catch on that they’re being scammed. Mario’s a scam artist, and he proved it yesterday. He wasn’t prepared at all for that case, he was on here, John’s site, his own site, drumming up the ill-informed. That’s what it’s all about, they could give a rat’s-ass about the President’s eligibility. They care about how much they can fool the rubes into giving. Period.
Mario insists, FWIW, that he is doing this pro bono. The best money never spent 😉
He’s doing this Sonny Bono…riding the coattails to fame and fortune.
Not much fame to be found here though. Attention, perhaps, notoriety, perhaps… But not much to add to one’s resume.
Sure there is…he’s got himself name recognition if he runs for office and a following of birthers. The far right will love him.
And to be fair, there’s not really a Paypal button on his web site. You have to follow the link all the way to Kerchner for that.
“Insist” in one hand, hold a sworn affidavit and an independent audit in the other…
I did not read his site closely. Mostly drivel and droppings.
I made the mistake of going to Kerchner’s blog once, thinking I might find certain information there.
Yikes.
The birther community could benefit greatly from a little constructive feedback.
(that was a joke.)
Hey, this is good. nbc tells us that the U.S. Supreme Court is wrong. He says “that the doubts that Minor expressed over the status of children born to alien parents was unwarranted.”
That’s good, Mario, try stand-up. You can’t do worse at that than at lawyering.
Hey Mario, got that quote from Judge Masin that you claim he says that President Obama was born in Hawaii? Or are you just going to run away again?
The Court stated that it was not going to address these doubts. So no, contrary to Mario’s poor understanding of what I said, I did not say that Minor was wrong, just that the doubts were easily laid to rest by the court in US v WKA where it observed that the meaning of the term natural born, since it was left undefined, was to be found in common law and found how from the English Common Law, to the early republic, the term natural born meant born on soil, regardless of the status of the parents.
Sorry Mario, you should really work on your reading comprehension and understand what the court in Minor did say and what I said.
Patience Mario, patience. You allow your poor reading skills to cause you much embarrassment, much of which could have been avoided with a little attention to logic and reason and perhaps an effort to do some research.
I see, Mario was trying to be funny. It’s sometimes hard to distinguish between when his poor reading comprehension skills are ‘talking’ and when he is making an attempt at a joke. In either case, he is not very convincing.
Yes Mario surely you do not have a double standard here? Of course, since Judge Masin never made the claim, your silence is tacit admission that you were wrong. That’s fine with me too… It takes some strong character to admit to being wrong.
Well, I wouldn’t go that far either.
I think Mario, through his usual abysmal reasoning, concluded that you were so wrong that your statement deserved to be the butt of a joke. As usual, he made a laughing stock only of himself.
I hope that’s not Mario’s “A” material.
Mario.
The ALJ DID NOT find that Obama was born in Hawai’i.
It also DID NOT find that Obama was not born in Hawai’i.
In fact. the ALJ made no finding on Obama’s birth place what-so-ever.
The ALJ said that IF Obama was born in Hawai’i, THEN he is NBC.
In other words the ALJ was finding against your 2 citizen parent bull feces hypothesis, and saying absolutely nothing about Obama’s birthplace one way or the other.
And the Courts decision yesterday agreed with the ALJ and found no merit in your argument otherwise.
How did you ever pass the Bar exam if you cannot even read and understand English?
Why would he do that? Surely he must have known by now not to jump too quickly?… A bit of research goes a long way, perhaps asking his 9 year old to parse the phrase to him might help as well.
Sort of like doing his homework and come prepared to address the issues in a logical and reasoned manner…
Of course, then there were the last two video-taped hearings and one may wonder what he was thinking there.
He burnt through that one much earlier…
Oooh! Oooh! I DO! Mister Kotter! Mister Kotter! Pick Me!
Its the “Second Bane of Assembly Language Programming”.
The “First Bane of Assembly Language Programming” is (are?) variable constants.
The first rule of debugging: “Constants aren’t; Variables don’t”
The second rule of debugging: “Look out for the zeroth element”.
The Supreme Court in Minor didn’t say that the Court had doubts but that there were doubts and that in the instant case, they didn’t have to be resolved. The Court never explained who had the doubts or exactly what they were.
The Minor court didn’t express any doubt about the status of children born to alien parents. The court merely reported that “there have been doubts…” The court did not say who had those doubts and offered no opinion as to whether those doubts had any validity. Since Minor was not born to alien parents, it was unnecessary for the court to resolve those doubts. The Minor court also said “Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.”
Note that the Minor court did not use the word “authorities” to describe the doubters.
Since the court was merely reporting a fact and not expressing an opinion, it is impossible to regard the comment as unwarranted.
Great minds think alike! You beat me by seven minutes.
Dr. Conspiracy,
The New Jersey Supreme Court explained that children born in the United States to alien parents were born subject to a foreign power but that “it will never be conceded by our government that such persons are subject to any foreign power, so as to exclude them from the right to citizenship intended to be conferred upon persons born in this country by the first section of the civil rights bill of April 9, 1866, hereinbefore referred to.” Benny v. O’Brien, 586 N.J.L. 36, 29 Vroom 36, 32 A. 696 (1895).
I guess the doubts Minor spoke about were pretty real.
Apparently you are not too familiar with the case
So the doubt was at best about temporary travel
Did you forget to do your research?
I discuss the case at my blog
The quote in context
Poor Poor Mario… Such poor research skills and poor reading comprehension skills… He strikes out once again… What’s your excuse this time?
What doubts would those be?
“The fourteenth amendment, by the language, “all persons born In the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” was intended to bring all races, without distinction of color, within the rule, which, prior to that time, pertained to the white race. In my opinion, therefore, Allan Benny is a citizen of the United States in virtue of his birth here of alien parents, who at the time of his birth were domiciled in this country.” Benny v. O’Brien, 586 N.J.L. 36, 29 Vroom 36, 32 A. 696 (1895).
Prior to the 14th amendment “the rule” was that all white persons born in the United States without regards to parents status were citizens.
Regarding those “doubts” about the citizenship of “children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents” to which Chief Justice Waite referred, who, exactly, had made up the largest groups of persons born on U.S. soil who were not considered citizens?
Mario failed to read the quote in its fullest context and now has exposed himself, once again, to much deserved ridicule.
It’s beyond my comprehension how sloppy Mario’s research has shown itself to be and how poor reading comprehension he continues to exhibit. The case was mentioned in US v WKA so one would have expected some more scrutiny of the extent of the ruling. How Mario got to quote a minor (pun intended) part while ignoring the findings is just beyond me.
Once again (as is the case actually most of the time) Mario quotes authority that directly refutes him.
It is emblematic of his position: to baldly assert and proof-text that which is completely untrue, in the face of tons of legal and historical evidence that makes plain what the truth actually is.
In regard to the case cited, I will only note that the phrase he quotes:
…it will never be conceded by our government that such persons are subject to any foreign power, so as to exclude them from the right to citizenship intended to be conferred upon persons born in this country by the first section of the civil rights bill of April 9, 1866, hereinbefore referred to.
has reference not only to people whose parents were foreigners, but whose grandparents were foreigners.
nbc has already given the quote with a bit more context. I will repeat it, only slightly differently, again:
Such a rule [to exclude people born in America from citizenship without regard to the citizenship of their parents] would disfranchise a large number of persons born In this country, whose parents, or even grandparents, were born here of alien parents. I think It is clear that It will never be conceded by our government that such persons are subject to any foreign power, so as to exclude them from the right to citizenship intended to be conferred upon persons born in this country by the first section of the civil rights bill of April 9, 1866, hereinbefore referred to.
The language used In this act is, “born In the United States and not subject to any foreign power.” The words of the fourteenth amendment are, “born In the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” Those provisions by Implication concede that there may be instances in which the right to citizenship does not attach by reason of birth In this country. Two facts must concur: the person must be born here, and he must be subject to the Jurisdiction of the United States according to the fourteenth amendment, which means, according to the civil rights act, that the person born here Is not subject to any foreign power. Allan Benny, whose parents were domiciled here at the time of his birth, Is subject to the Jurisdiction of the United States, and Is not subject to any foreign power.
The court goes on to say:
Persons Intended to be excepted are only those born in this country of foreign parents who are temporarily traveling here, and children born of persons resident here in the diplomatic service of foreign governments. Such children are, in theory, born within the allegiance of the sovereign power to which they belong, or which their parents represent.
It does continue to amaze.
Yes, amazing indeed… I looked at Benny some time ago but had forgotten about it. It was just one of the many cases which supported US v WKA. Mario truly messed up again… What a riot.
The others beat me to posting the decision from the case you cited, but I am very discouraged in the slant you put on it. There is no excuse for that.
I have told you before, people here actually read the cases.
Not even poor reading comprehension combined with confirmation bias? Sigh…
Mr. Apuzzo:
Explain section 214 of the Vattel treatise.
Explain why Chief Justice Fuller in his dissent said that people like Wong could now be elected President.
And then, after you’ve convinced yourself one more time of your brilliance, why you can just go away.
You’re a windbag, a bore and a loser.
should read “could be elected President”
For most of his other stuff, if you suspend disbelief (and logic) and give him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes the whole two-parent thing, the rest could be explained by poor reading comprehension and confirmation bias.
I try, I really try not to ascribe intent to people’s actions. If ever I cut loose it always seems to come back to bite me, but I have a hard time coming up with anything other than intentional deceit with that last one.
Mario is a venal, meretricious attorney who discovered one day that it was easier to be a sock puppet for the KKK (or like org) rather than chase ambulances.
His job is to propagandize, truth be damned. We all know that he KNOWINGLY lies in court about Vattel or the Pakistan travel ban. Why expect him to be more honest about anything else?
Why you guys continue to argue with this seditious Lord Haw-Haw of a lawyer is beyond me. He only deserves contempt from the rest of the profession.
I quoted it from your site.
http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/benny-v-obrien-1895-29-vroom-58-n-j-law/
Cool! I was looking for it online and then noticed it on my own site… Memory… I am still speechless by the reckless behavior of Mario…
Remember that Mario has recently faced several defeats. One in Court and several on this blog and he must have been somewhat desperate to impress us and score some points. He may have ignored the good practice of research and careful reading in favor of a quick stab. Sadly enough he mortally wounded his own position. Clumsy.
I think you are right. We should just ignore him, but it galls me to see something so blatant… Nope, you are right. I think we should ignore him. He just goes to his blog and tells his version of what is going on here anyway.
Yep, that is it. No more Mario for me.
It’s fun, takes little time and destroys his position. He may be able to control his own blog but he cannot control the information.
I abhor poor research, shoddy logic and reasoning and just poor understanding of issues and Mario’s postings represent many of these, often all at the same time.
I know, it’s a weakness of mine.
Which is why my comments are jokes and ridicule.
If you argue with a fool, make sure you’re not doing the same thing. ~ Author Unknown
Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~ Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain
You are generous.
I’m the ‘giving’ kind of person I guess…
Mario is like a jelly doughnut: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxXW6tfl2Y0
Reading Mario’s responses reminds me of my nephew. My nephew has Asperger’s syndrome and he argues the same way Mario does. He is overly focused on details, and never sees the bigger picture. He prefers to communicate and argue with people on-line but forgets all his arguments when talking to strangers in person. His reading comprehension is poor because of confirmation bias. He can never admit when he’s wrong and he changes his argument when he feels overwhelmed.
I’m not saying Mario has Asperger’s, but arguing with Mario seems to be just as pointless as trying to argue with my nephew.
My theory is that, a while back, Mario, probably through Kerchner, came in contact with wealthy white supremacists who are not only opposed to Obama, but are trying to fight the “invasion of the mud people” and overthrow the fact that “brown babies” born on US soil are just like any other Americans.
This means popularizing the concept of THREE classes of citizens, not TWO: (1) “pure” Americans (ie: NBC) born of two preferably white christian citizens; (2) “second class” citizens, “brown people” born here, but who are not “real” Americans because of their “impure” foreign blood; and naturalized citizens the overlords deign to let in.
To popularize this loathsome agenda, the people in question need(ed) a propagandist, a mouthpiece, ready and willing to defend the indefensible against all odds; a sock pupper to plant in the fertile minds of bigoted americans the idea that there is a legal foundation for all this garbage.
That result may be enough for Mario’s paymasters; the losses in the courts can only encourage the paranoia and reinforce the beliefs of the “faithful”.
We know from Mario’s resume that, like all bottom feeders, he is a good salesman and a pitbull; despite what you think, I think he speaks/writes well enough to deliver the goods for his unidentified clients — as long as you realize his real audience isn’t other lawyers like us, or the courts.
If the monthly retainer on the table was high enough, I don’t doubt that Mario tried to get that job — and indeed succeeded.
This, I believe, is what we’re dealing with here; it really is the only explanation that accounts for all the facts.
You folks are wasting your time. Just as Mario continues to misrepresent ALJ Masin’s findings and decision he still insists he did not lose the Kerchner case. So, somewhere out there Obama has been ruled inelibigle to hold the office of president and all the rest of us just don’t realize it yet.
In well over 200 years there are only a few people who know history, what the Constitution and the law state, and that’s Mario, Leo, Kreep, Pidgeon, Klayman and of course Orly. And you can throw wackadoodle Olsen in there if you like, (though his bottom line argument is it all comes from God and the Bible, but nevertheless) along with a couple dozen birthers who know because these folks say so.
Everyone else, all the legal scholars, legal treatises and lower court and Supreme Court holdings are wrong and always have been. It has taken the sheer brilliance of these few great constitutional lawyers and scholars to wake us all up. Oh, and a black man being elected president being the impetus for the need to straighten everyone out once and for all.
We should all be thankful that we live in a time with these brilliant scholars so we can watch and appreciate in real time.
Of course, Minor didn’t say it had doubt. It said some unknown persons did and the Court declined to examine whether such doubt had merits. That took place in WKA. Can’t you get anything right. I believe you are the one saying the supreme is wrong. Please, tell me which one of these statement by the majority of the Supreme Court is correct:
“[t]he Constitution of the United States, as originally adopted, uses the words ‘citizen of the United States,’ and ‘natural-born citizen of the United States’” and that “[t]he Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words…in this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the constitution….’[t]he interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, “a natural-born citizen.” It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
“The term “citizen,” as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term “subject” in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government.”
“it is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
“And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King’s obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary. . . . Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives, and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.”
“The very learned and useful opinion of Mr. Justice Gray, speaking for the court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, establishes that, at common law in England and the United States, the rule with respect to nationality was that of the jus soli, that birth within the limits of the jurisdiction of the Crown, and of the United States, as the successor of the Crown, fixed nationality, and that there could be no change in this rule of law except by statute”
“We thus have an acknowledgment that our law in this area follows English concepts with an acceptance of the jus soli, that is, that the place of birth governs citizenship status except as modified by statute.”
I know, these statements don’t count because you say so. amazing how the Court never picked up on the big “C” little “c” thing.
I see you are not doing your mantra.
Remember:
“without merit, without…”
You can customize it if that helps:
“My attempt to make someone say the opposite of what they actually are saying by shaving off a couple words is …without merit.”
Lupin, as convenient as that conspiracy theory* is, surely the deep-pocketed white powers (heh) would have come up with a better attorney? I mean, a bottom-feeding DWI guy plucked from obscurity? It seems they only would have settled for such after all the more suitable candidates—constitutional law / immigration law attorneys with impressive Cs—proved incorruptable.
__________
* I don’t think it has been noted here at OCT (yet) that conspiracy theories are, by their nature, convenience for their believers and proponents. Not a deep observation, but an interesting one.
Yes and no. I ran into the same tactics a couple of years ago from a ‘Sovereign Citizen/Tax Dodger’ type who swore up and down that down was up. He absolutely insisted that he was not a ‘person’ under the income tax law and debated the point endlessly on several hundred posts over several weeks. It didn’t matter how it was explained, by how many different people, whether he/she was called a moron or simply misinformed, he/she would just refuse to acknowledge any actual facts.
Whenever a rational explanation was provided, explaining simply and tactfully where he/she was going wrong, he/she would do exactly what Mario is doing… claim you are running away from the point, not providing evidence, and restart the rehashing of the same points that were demolished 50 posts earlier.
And again from a 9/11 Truther who insisted that a 96 foot hole in a photo of the Pentagon was really only 12 feet across.
Most of these folks clearly don’t honestly believe what they are saying; it is part of their strategy to pretend that they just don’t see the universe the same way others do. They are not ‘confirmationally biased’; they are purposely contrary in order to progress their point. Whether the point is to just ‘pull your chain’, or see how many folks they can fool into cheating on their taxes, or try to perversely tie the government up in knots, they have a seemingly endless supply of crank legal theories they just keep relitigating over and over and over, even after doing time for tax fraud or other anti-social crimes.
Some may well be clinically insane I suppose, but since we don’t lock up the non-violent nutters anymore we have to live with the fact that they live amongst us and have access to the internet just like anybody else.
Corrected “not” to “now.”
Apuzzo won’t answer, though. He can’t. He has to confabulate some meanings from ancient irrelevant documents that have nothing to do with statutory interpretation. Impressing only himself and Charles Kerchner. No one else buys any of his crap legal theories.
And let’s not forget that the government’s SCOTUS brief in Wong Kim Ark conceded that if Wong Kim Ark was a citizen he was eligible to be President.
I see these things from a different perspective as a publisher. While I would rather people not bring frivolous lawsuits or make unsound arguments, if it’s going to happen I’m pleased for it to happen here because in my niche market it’s good for business. In the end, when Mario Apuzzo, Orly Taitz, Cort Wrotnowski, David Farrar, Dean Haskins, Ron Polland, Douglas Vogt, Jerry Collette, John Drew, Joseph Farah, Ken Dunbar, Leonard Daneman, MissTickly, Sam Sewell or even Lucas Smith posts here, it validates the importance of the site within the context of the conspiracy topic, and it gives my readers exclusive first hand access to what these people are saying — and they are birthers presumably we’re all interested in.
I don’t know why Apuzzo posts here except that it must fill some need. I can’t see it as being very satisfying for him.
Do you think many good attorneys who care about their reputation — the kind you describe — would take that brief?
Can you imagine any of them mouthing the kind of things Mario says?
There’s only two possibilities here: (a) Mario is a drooling idiot (which he obviously is not) who’s bankrupting himself (hard to imagine) to pursue his lunatic quest; or (2) he is being paid to do it roughly along the lines I described, minus the overall conspiracy angle. You only need one Koch brother-type person with deep pockets to bankroll Mario.
Of course they wouldn’t! It just seems that someone better could be found. Someone willing to make the argument for the money … perhaps even an idealist who believes that all citizens deserve to have their position heard in court (no matter how hopeless). Or a sellout who’ll take any case for a paying customer.
And I was not attempting to belittle by using the term “conspiracy theory”, this explanation of Mario is literally a conspiracy theory (well, hypothesis, but I gave up that fight long ago), at least 2 people (a lawyer and his patron) conspiring to push an agenda while misrepresenting their motives.
In short, I too, suspect your hypothesis is spot on. With the possible modifier that their are numerous rightwing persons and groups that have found numerous inept advocates (they’d find better if they could, but fools naturally find each other, it’s destiny) to push their various agendas in disingenuous ways. Collectively, it’s called the Birther Movement (BM). 😉
Like Jon Stewart worrying about this election being a snooze fest between Obama and Romney, but then giving thanks to the comedy gods for Donald Trump.
As for M.P., I personally believe posting here, or anywhere, gives him an illusory sense of power, to hit that “submit” button: take that, bam, pow. It’s one of the temptations of comments for anyone, any of us. Especially after losing a court case. Add in his style of attempted linguistic trickery and he feels clever to boot, laying traps, striking blows. So it seems.
Lupin: I think you are greatly overstating the costs involved in what Mario is doing. His “cases” really cost very little, mostly just filing fees. NJ is a small state, so his trip to Trenton to argue this week cost $20 in gas, maximum. As far as I can tell, he has no office-the address he lists is likely his home. I find no listing for “The Law Offices of Mario Apuzzo”, nor any evidence that he has any staff. Research expenses? You must be joking-Mario don’t need no stinkin research. Running his blog costs bupkis (as Doc knows). So he isn’t bankrupting himself anymore than Doc is.
I’m not even sure how active his DWI practice is these days. When I search “DWI Apuzzo” I mostly get his birther stuff and when I search “DWI Jamesburg NJ” I see a number of other lawyers, but not him. So if someone were charged with DWI in his area, I’m not sure how they would find Mario.
My guess is that he is semi-retired, living off past earnings, famiiy money or his wife (or some combination) and is bored so he has decided to do this for fun and as a cry for attention.
That is the crux of the matter, isn’t it? Could it indeed?
I don’t think Mario is as bad or dim-witted as ballantine or nbc sometimes imply. His career says otherwise.
I think his pitbull nature makes him the right man for the job, although I think he’s too thin-skinned for his own good. If you’re going to wallow in the mud for money, you shouldn’t be that sensitive.
However, he is unprincipled, or venal (I like to use the word “meretricious to describe him :-)), and that’s the #1 qualification for the job.
I sincerely believe that the Koch avatar that’s bankrolling him couldn’t find anyone better.
I think I know Apuzzo’s answer: Mr. Collins was careless. Now I think it unlikely that someone of Collins’ reputation arguing on behalf of the US Government before the Supreme Court would be careless, but I think that’s what Apuzzo said before.
Recently, he said that he thought that it reflected what Collins thought the District Court believed.
Puzo1 said…
4zoltan,
You said: “We now know that the government believed that if Wong was declared a citizen at birth then he was also natural born.”
You are confounding and conflating what the government believed with what the government believed the lower court believed.
[skip]
May 6, 2012 8:07 PM
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2012/05/fox-news-is-spreading-false-information.html
ROTFL…
Good points, Lupin, but I have to agree with Scientist as well. It takes time to think oneself into nuttiness (idle hands, idle minds!), and even more time to act on your nutty once you have nurtured it. Thus the birthers are invariably people with time on their hands. The few online warriors still fightin the good fight are not only old, but elderly. Well past retirement, rambling online is just about all they have left. And “acting out” negatively gets more attention than being positive.
Young people literally have better things to do.
Your points make sense as well . . . but we all like a good Koch and bull story.
Of course, if the government believed that the lower court believed that being born in the United States made WKA natural born, and the Supreme Court affirmed the ruling of the lower court, then the government would naturally continue to believe what the lower court believed, especially when on remand the lower court essentially came to the same conclusion it had before.
Apuzzo appears to be gone. He must be celebrating. And writing another 50 pages of complete drivel.
I wonder when he is going to unearth the Benj. Franklin papers as his next proof. That beats dealing with the questions we have all asked him, particularly mine, which he can’t answer. If we do see something from him it will be more impenetrable gibberish.
But first, of course, he has to return after celebrating his smashing victory in Purpura.
I get the impression that he is a “night person” (not be confused with a “creature of the night” unless you just want to).
Holy cow! 760 comments in 9 days?
I believe that’s correct.
One thing is certain: Mario, who responds to even the slightest bit of sarcasm or perceived insult, has steadfastly refused to deny or even comment when I have bluntly “accused” him of being bankrolled by an extreme right-wing organization. It would have been easy and not incriminating in any way to state that his sole client was Kerchner, or like Orly, be reasonably transparent about relying on like-minded loonies to finance his crusade. But from Mario has come only silence. Read into this what you will; I can’t help feel there’s more to (or behind) Mario than we know.
In honor of the “Cold Case” Posse: Creature of the Night
Is the the “creature of the night” of which you speak?
Orly flies all over the country and generates considerable expenses. Mario hasn’t left New Jersey, so his entire crusade has cost next to nothing other than his time, and, if he is retired, his time is free.
And, do we really know that Orly funds herself entirely via PayPal or does her very wealthy husband kick in (possibly because it keeps her away from home for long periods of time and is thus well worth the money)?
Mario was totally embarrassed here when he insisted on posting ‘arguments’ which where quickly shown to be more evidence of his poor reading comprehension and confirmation bias than on logic and reason.
Not the first time, but the last example involving the Benny case was particularly indicative of his poor researching skills.
Mario is now licking his wounds and probably hopes that we will forget his follies. Of course, he would never admit to being wrong…
Purpura is making his own foolish claims on the internet right now. Anyone who has read his pro-se contributions in the healthcare law would be amazed at the lack of legal acumen, logic and reason… And in total agreement with the research in this area, he continues to believe that his arguments are somehow, legally speaking, the best…
Oh the self deception…