Janice Okubo
“We don’t destroy vital records”
According to Hawaii Department of Health spokesperson Janice Okubo, original birth documents were not destroyed when the Department went paperless:
“We don’t destroy vital records,” Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo said. “That’s our whole job, to maintain and retain vital records.
…In 2001, Hawai’i’s paper documents were reproduced in electronic format but “any paper data prior to that still exists,” Health Department spokeswoman Okubo said.
This is no surprise to Obama Conspiracy Theories, although definitive evidence was lacking until today. Good business practices dictate that the originals would have been retained. Birth certificate negative images, similar to those 1961 certificates (issued in 1966) attached to the article, had led Obama Conspiracy Theories to the opinion that the records had been microfilmed at some point, and that the original paper documents were not in regular business use. An earlier report attributed to Jon Klein of CNN that the paper documents had been destroyed is in error.
Referring to the current Certification of Live Birth form, Okubo said:
“Our Certificate of Live Birth is the standard form, which was modeled after national standards that are acceptable by federal agencies and organizations,” Okubo said. “With that form, you can get your passport or your soccer registration or your driver’s license.”
Wait a second….
She said “we don’t destroy vital records”.
YOU took this to mean that they still have the “original birth documents”. But that’s not necessarily the same thing. The operative question is, “What does hawaii consider a vital record?” NOT “What does a birther (or even a birther debunker) consider to be a vital record?”
From Hawaii’s standpoint, it could very well mean that a paperless version BECOMES the “vital” record, while the original version no longer remains important.
And in fact, part of the reason to go “paperless” is because of the cost and expense of maintaining old paper records. So the “good business practice” is to replace the paper records with electronic versions, and the electronic version becoumes the “offical” document (not the paper version).
Poor Ms Okubo and Dr Fukino. Are they going to have to be even more specific with you? After this, I think they will have learned that no matter what they say, people like you will parse and try to make what they are saying not what they are saying. I bet that after these statements, there are about 25,000 people left in America that don’t think a) Dr Fukino has seen Pres Obama’s original birth certificate, and he was born in Hawaii and b) Hawaii still has Pres Obama’s original birth certificate.
They probably have an electronic image of the original 1961 form, but shredded the actual paper.
In any case, this is immaterial.
And by saying “We don’t destroy vital records,” she probably meant that records of births and deaths are kept forever, irrespective of the media.
What’s up doc? You’re starting to sound like a birther.
I could be mistaken but I don’t think that K Ashford is trying to twist things to suit a birther’s perspective. I think she’s merely saying that the “official documentation” may not be the original of the typed 1961 birth certificate. Could be a microfilmed copy; could be a scan of the original. That doesn’t make it less official or real. I understand her point about the expense of maintaining paper records, especially in Hawaii’s humidity.
The Obama Admin knows damn well that they could end this issue and satisfy the birthers (Or at least some of them; this quite true since some Birthers don’t consider Natural Born Citizenship argument; take Phil Berg for instance.) but have not taken steps to allow Hawaii to make the Original bC public record with Obama’s constent. Any reasonable person would ask themselves why.
It it blatently obvious that there something on the original BC that Obama does not want the American People to see.
The American People have the right to know what Obama is hiding.
While I would agree that it is immaterial whether the birth registration form is on paper or on microfilm, my opinion based on what I know of the industry and what Okubo said, is that there is paper somewhere. And from the negative images, I think there is microfilm somewhere. There also could be optical scans of the microfilm in a computer, and backups of the backups.
I do not think he is hiding anything. But all the Constitution requires is that you are a Natural Born Citizen. It is clear now that he was born in Hawaii. Any personal information about his birth is none of your business or mine.
I’m getting really impatient with this parsing of everything and people interpreting what Ms Okubo and Dr Fukino meant. I can read. What else can “We don’t destroy vital records” mean but “We still have the paper records.” ???!!!! Like Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
(Namaste misha!)
Nobody needs to see the original. The only things on the original that are important is that he was born in Hawaii in 1961. Natural born citizen. Older than 35. Pres Obama showed us the COLB and Dr Fukino verified what’s on it. Nothing else on the original matters, nor is it any of your business.
I want to see W’s BC. What’s HE hiding?
I also enjoy watching your crowd have conniption fits.
Keep it up, GOP!! Booker 2016!
You may well be right, but vital records (the registrations of birth and deaths, etc.) have a historical significance beyond normal business records. I’ve seen state registrars point to an old yellow piece of paper and say that it was the record of the birth to a fur trapper and an Indian woman, registered at a trading post before the territory became a state. They’re not going to shred that. There’s a special pride in vital statistics among those who keep them and for this reason I think it’s quite possible the paper is still around (not that it matters).
Well, if Obama’s Original BC doesn’t list a hospital, Kapoloni is in big trouble. They could be charged with some type fraud since they tried to proffer a letter claiming Obama was born there for charity purposes. Obama hasn’t verified the letter because doing so would me Obama would be guilty of fraud as well and is in collusion with Kapoloni. Addition, If the orginal BC doesn’t list a hospital, Obama will be caught in a major lie. This means Obama has lied about his records. This would demand an immediate investigation into all of Obama records to determine what lies and fraud Obama has purpretrated.
if…could…would…If…will…This means…would….
Got anything not based on idle speculation?
If wishes were horses, the planet would be covered in 57 feet of manure.
If… if…. if….
For god’s sake!!! Will you guys just shut up and actually go get some evidence?
Whoops! I stand corrected. My apologies to anyone offended. What do you expect from a smart ass New Yorker?
My mother was born in Bellvue General. I guess snarkiness is biological.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Ahem.
This is not a joke: Goebbels called psychiatry “the Jewish science.”
Yah john, keep up with your delusions and don’t forget to take your meds, are you a child or an ignorant adult? Does hating Obama cause your brain to athrophy? This BC issue is over and done with. So if you don’t want people to make fun of you, drop it!
If I ever seek psychiatric help or counseling, I’m going to a Jewish shrink!
“I also enjoy watching your crowd have conniption fits.”
Me too.
If Obama’s birth certificate says that I delivered the baby, then the hospital is in real trouble! First, I wasn’t born then, so they must be employing some sort of high-tech time-travel device! Second, I am not a doctor, so if the birth certificate says that, then they let some time-traveling lawyer deliver a baby!
That would require REAL investigation!
Kapualani hasn’t DENIED that I delivered Obama, because to do so would be to acknowledge their complicity in the cover-up of time-traveling lawyers!
That means that Obama should be investigated for covering up the truth about aliens! And bigfoot! And the Loch Ness Monster!
“Will you guys just shut up and actually go get some evidence?”
Who needs evidence? According to dual citizen/half-assed dentist/poseur lawyer Orly Taitz, a president needs two citizen parents. Cue up deVattel.
She and Donofrio are going to turn up the gain now – all the way to 11. (Sorry)
Is Sarah Palin a welfare queen? I haven’t looked at Wasilla’s records, but no one there has denied it.
Is Orly Taitz a Mossad agent? No one has denied it, on record. Is John Campbell a КГБ agent? The Kremlin will neither confirm, nor deny it. All I get from them is a terse “no comment.” (First they had to find someone who spoke English, and then he asked “What is your interest?”)
…and the lizard people. Don’t forget about the lizard people.
If my grandmother had wheels, she would have been a trolley car.
It is reported that W’s birth certificate is in the Texas State Archives.
John, I think the reaction to Okubo’s statement pretty much disproves what you said. No document is going to end anything.
…not to mention the reverse vampires.
Dr. Conspiracy:
Perhaps you forget, but the HI officials have said (Fukino I believe it was) had specifically stated that HI had in its files Barack Obama Jr’s ORIGINAL BC (not COLB).
It is only the Obamatrons that have routinely tried to pretend that the original paperwork of all birth certificates were destroyed.
It will all come out in court.
kimba:
And you’d lose your “bet”. There are almost 450,000 citizens now insisting the B. O. fess up and prove his legal eligibility.
The HI folks should just zip their lips and respond appropriately with the documentation subpoenaed. Blabbing as they are with such nonsense is actually hurting their hero (and your) and it will end up making all of you look as though you have being complicit in treason.
There are almost 450,000 citizens now insisting the B. O. fess up and prove his legal eligibility.
1. It is very easy to enter a fake name onto WND’s petition.
2. 450,000 is still 0.1% of the U.S. population.
The HI folks should just zip their lips and respond appropriately with the documentation subpoenaed.
There’s been no subpoena.
John:
All that Obama has need do is (ahem!!) conclusively prove his eligibility to hold the office he now occupies. Nothing more; nothing less.
That has always been – and still is – the entire issue.
All that Obama has need do is (ahem!!) conclusively prove his eligibility to hold the office he now occupies.
And looks like the COLB produced last year did just that.
Mary Brown:
You really, REALLY do not understand what a natural born citizen is, do you??
Let me tell you one thing it is NOT … it is not a citizen falling under the 14th Amendment. It is also not someone who has a father that is not a US citizen.
He’s told everyone that at birth he was governed by the BNA of 1948. That makes him a Brit (no matter where he was born)!!
Give me a break.
kimba:
You troops in the Squadron of Flying Monkeys would like to get rid of the actual documents wouldn’t you??
Ain’t gonna work! And BTW, he didn’t even show you the COLB but a computer-based image of it.
it is not a citizen falling under the 14th Amendment. It is also not someone who has a father that is not a US citizen.
Sheer repetition (without citations) convinces no one.
He’s told everyone that at birth he was governed by the BNA of 1948.
No he didn’t; try again.
Dr. Conspiracy:
You’re right with respect to the document – it is only one small piece of factual evidence; necessary, but not sufficient.
And it will have to be eventually disgorged in court.
it is only one small piece of factual evidence; necessary, but not sufficient.
As there’s no competent evidence to counter it, it is sufficient, and dispositive.
And it will have to be eventually disgorged in court.
Which court? Which suit?
John:
And Obama is hardly the only one as there will be many sucked in the the legal maelstrom of being complicit in fraud and treason.
Quite possibly, even some of you Flying Monkeys …
richCares:
I doubt he cares if you Flying Monkeys babble on … doesn’t matter at all.
Greg:
You obviously miss the who point and the seriousness of this issue.
Perhaps you don’t care if you have a criminal as president but most Americans do I think.
“Perhaps you don’t care if you have a criminal as president but most Americans do I think.”
Most people do not think Obama is a criminal,
you think wrong, you are the criminal with your ignorant charges.
You must be reading from a very special penal code….
really jtx, there are no such things as flying monkeys, you need to get a life, or at least a brain. a 50 year judge that believes in flying monkeys, you take the cake for ignorance. Your comments suggest you are the fraud and treason suspect.
You already know why what you posted is cr@p. How’s things at the tax storefront?
jtx, at this point I think you need a good common sense transplant.
Jtx, give me your court rulings. It is over. Go on to LoLo Soetero adapted him, he traveled on an Indonesian Passport. Give us some variety in your craziness.
Oh, oh those of us in the criminal maelstrom had better beware. We might be indicted for treason by a grand jury jtx initiates. Then he’ll have an indictment and then?
ROTFL, and who is going to pursue this angle? No self respecting judge or prosecutor.
Disgorged in court? I can’t think of why.
jtx, and where did you get this novel legal theory?
And tell me, jtx. I’ve asked you for this for quite a long time, but please point me to the law that says that the United Kingdom (or any other country) has veto power over who is and is not a Natural-Born Citizen. I’ve searched all over the U.S. Constitution, and can’t find it. I’ve searched all over case law, and cannot find it. I’ve searched all over the U.S. Code, and cannot find it. I cannot find where U.S. Citizenship Laws care one bit what the British Nationality Act.
One of your birther friends put it best, unknowingly. U.S. Law governs the United States, and British Law governs the United Kingdom. Nowhere does it state that British law governs the United States, especially not a British Law that was passed 175 years after the United States broke off from Britian.
You never read an article here that the COLB was destroyed. I don’t write things that I have no evidence for (unless it’s clearly labeled opinion or speculation). This is a difference between you and me. You never have evidence. It’s sort of a running joke on this blog.
It is pretty bad for the birthers when even Bill O’Reilly is pounding on them and their hero Dobbs…
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200907280051
You remember the scene in The Hunt for Red October when the officer in a Soviet sub told his captain, “you have killed us”?
That’s what conservative leaders are telling the birthers.
And I hope they keep it up. I detest the GOP, and everything it stands for.
I have been reading some American History this week. The original Republicans of the time of Washington and Jefferson would be seen as far-right extremist libertarians by modern standards. Perhaps the Republican party, should be relegated to the extremists, and a new Conservative party created for normal conservative-minded folks.
“450,000 is still 0.1% of the U.S. population.”
**************
Actually, it’s closer to 0.15% of the population. Give ’em credit. [:^)
It’s quite feasible to keep the originals, scan them into digital format, then automatically record out the digital scans onto microfilm. Now you have three records. (Yes, they still make microfilm – properly stored microfilm is as archival as anything can be.) I’m sorta obsessive about keeping good archives, so that’s what I would do.
“This is not a joke: Goebbels called psychiatry “the Jewish science.”
********************
Hell, Phillip Lenard, probably the most evil non-politician to win a Nobel Prize, called Relativity theory “Jewish Science”. It seems his anti-Semitism got a big boost from professional jealousy over not sharing the Nobel Prize with Einstein for the photoelectric effect, which would have given him a second Nobel.
I entirely support this idea.
Currently, there’s nothing to the right of the right of the Democratic Party that’s even remotely sane.
By, say, Nixon’s standards, the current Democratic Party is a center-right party.
What we need is a new “leftie” party.
Remember William Pierce, physics professor: founded the National Alliance, and wrote The Turner Diaries, which influenced McVeigh.
I tend to think he wanted to become chairman of a college physics department, lost out to someone Jewish, and went off the deep end.
Here is my maternal uncle.
“Flying Monkeys”
So THAT’S what is on my back. I always thought they looked like wings. Thanks for confirming it.
“What we need is a new “leftie” party.”
Agreed, but since the States does not have a Parliament, and is locked into a 2-party system, it’s not going to happen.
We don’t have a viable Green Party, as a consequence. The only time we came close was Teddy Roosevelt, and his Bull Moose Party.
And they are jumping off the birther train wrerck as quickly as possible. You know it is bad when Ann Coulter, O’Reilly, Hannity, and even Limbaugh refuse to support Dobbs and his crazy crusuade. The birthers don’t realize that if there was even one bit of real evidence that President Obama was not born in the US, they would be pounding it on every TV show every day. Look how they pushed the Gates incident into a national discussion on race.
By the way the birther rumor about President Obama’s sister having a Hawaii COLB won’t die…I think these people believe that if you repeat a lie enough that it may become the truth…
http://www.examiner.com/x-14143-Orange-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m7d27-Did-you-know-Obamas-half-sister-born-in-Indonesia-has-a-Hawaiian-Certification-of-Live-Birth
Oh really? Now I’ve said before I could care less about this, so what brings me here on this subject you may wonder. Well, watching CNN and FOX tonite I heard about it on both networks. And O’Reilly wasn’t POUNDING the Birthers, nor did he act like they “KILLED” the conservative party. Bill and Benard both had good viable excuses, unlike ANY Lefty has presented in 12 months, WHY Obama won’t show a “Copy” of the original B.C. They talked about the issue reasonably, not as if they were a couple conspiracy Kooks, agreeing he was born in Hawaii, but bottom line if he and his party weren’t conceited nose thumbers they would have shown the document already and be done with this sillyness. But they have CHOSEN to drag this out like children, like saying “nanny nanny Boo Boo, we have it and you can’t see it….we got some ice cream we got some ice cream…wanna bite?..PSYCH!”. Real classy party, and YOU guys support it, and you further misinterpret and/or misquote the newscasters comments, which is typical of the left.
They showed all the necessary evidence but people chose to disregard it.
That’s the truth. No hard feeling 🙂
Birth cert. is here.
What more do you want? Call Honolulu Vital Statistics, 808.586.4539
your not REALLY that thick skulled are you? Its a simple request. If you were confident what the document will show, the common sense person would be like “sure, bring lets see it”. But you anti-berthers are ANYTHING but. WHICH makes people question…What ARE they scared of? NO hard feeling 🙂
oops… grammar typo.. deduct 5pts from me.
“…which is typical of the left”
there goes your credibility
here’s the right’s take on science
Smoking not harmful
PCB’s won’t hurt you
Asbestos is safe
Cadmium won’t cause cancer
global warming is a hoax
Evolution is a lie
Not a good track record, get a brain will you!
I know what you want to see, but of course there is no reason for you to gain access to it because the data shows Obama to be natural born.
Them are the facts. You get a chance to vote on this in 2012.
Misha, if you BELIEVE that will work, I have some great waterfront property for sale you might be interested in Southwest Florida. Hows that CHANGE working out for you by the way? 29% of people like the Health Bill idea of your boy, on a subject that 80% of Americans are satisifed with. 30% approve of how he handled the Gates situation. But then, AIG did profit $5billion dollars so far, oh wait..we GAVE THEM $45 Billion. How LONG will we spend? Even ZOGBY has him at 48% overall approval. But hey, you stick with this B.C. story…it’ll give you laughs all the way to the soup line.
Don’t forget: George W. Bush is the greatest president we ever had. (hahahahahahahaha)
I dont wanna see squat. I could care less if Obama ate the damn thing. I’m merely addressing what others are talking about. If someone asked ME for a Piece of paper I’d not be such an ass to not show it. It is just what they were saying on TV a couple nights ago, they like to “Feel” the power, they HAVE it and aren’t going to SHOW it. WHOPPY DOOO! It’s just ignorance. And that’s who your supporting. Good on ya.
“If someone asked ME for a Piece of paper I’d not be such an ass to not show it.”
All right then. Consider this a request: show me your original vault copy of your birth certificate. A certified copy is not good enough. You must show me the actual original, typed up when you born.
Do you think you can do that?
(I would doubt that you could do that, for the simple reason that state governments do not go about handing out original documents to people, be they wills, birth certificates, or whatever.)
WOW, now there is a run on stupid statements if I’ve ever seen one.
Minus the global warming stupidity. If you buy that your in the same group that thinks landing on the moon was staged. You watch the sorry videos of Polar Bears on break away icebergs. Well duhhh Bear, swim back where you belong. ANd Ice breaking is a natural thing, it can’t freeze all the way to the Equator…its gotta melt at some point.
It’s MADE UP STORIES to make you believe there is this terrible global warming. Meanwhile, Gore is raking in multi-millions of dollars, doing little to nothing himself to change his rich lifestyle. At least when the B.C. thing goes away some year, you’ll have this to fall back on richy.
Lots of people think they have the original. That’s why Crazy Eileen had hers in a Baggie.
See, there you go, putting the Lib spin on words. When a person SAYS original, I REALLY doubt they mean “THE ORIGINAL” Einstein. Duhhh.. A Certified copy would be acceptable. Of COURSE nobody has their Originals, and if a Birther says that they are stupid. You ASK me a stupid question, they you turn around and tell me it is not possible. Who’s the real confused on here?
ANd NO Richy, that is YOUR opinion of the Right. I would say there went your credibility, but you can’t lose what you never had.
The birthers hurt the GOP more than they do Obama. Now with their ” the Health Care reform bill is going to kill the old people and make young people have abortions” campaign that they’re going to run through the whole recess, which, if you’ve seen the commercial is stupid, poorly scripted, poorly acted, is not going to fool anyone. I hope the Republicans bought lots of weenies and marshmallows for the campfire, because I think they might be wandering in the wilderness for a generation if they don’t just cease to exist.
There are [totally bogus] emails going around saying that a government official will visit every Medicare recipient and make them fill out a form saying how they want to die.
Truth: the draft legislation will reimburse doctors who provide end of life counseling.
In conversation, I fine that a fair number of the birthers expect that access will be had to the original paper birth registration form and that forensic document experts will examine it for signs of forgery or alteration.
Truth, they’ve seen a Certified Copy of the Birth Certificate, that has been authenticated by a third-party. It’s also been authenticated by the Hawaii Department of Health multiple times. And yet, they’re still insisting that it’s not enough to prove your birth place.
They actually do mean “the original” birth certificate.
TRUTH, you’re turning back into the birther that you once were. Can you prove that it’s a fake? Remember, this is prima facie evidence, that is accepted in any court of law. It’s up to you to prove that it didn’t happen this way.
So, prove that the birth certificate is a fake. And any expert that you cite, must seem to pass the Daubert standard before their testimony will be taken. Ron Polland doesn’t qualify. Neither does TechDude.
Last time I came back from Mexico, and I showed the DHS agent my passport, and he didn’t believe it was a real passport, despite the security measures in place and absence of signs of forgery.
Luckily, I had brought along by forensic document expert with me, just in case of such doubts.
Because we all know how unreliable to those government documents are….
George W. Bush is the greatest president we’ve had since Bill Clinton (and not counting Barack Obama).
I read last week that a substantial amount of the Medicare expense comes from end of life extraordinary methods that have little chance of extending life or providing quality of life. I’m all for end of life counseling and living wills. In her column today, “Relax No One’s Killing Grandma”, Froma Harrop addresses this and I thought it was a good read.
http://www.creators.com/opinion/froma-harrop.html?columnsName=fha
I think the GOP has just gone all Terry Schiavo again. And that was pretty crazy. Fortunately, AARP is jumping in with a campaign to try to explain this to seniors. Seniors don’t want Health Care Reform to fail, because if the GOP kills it, their next target is Medicare.
( I know this will have to go Great Mother, Doc)
“thinks landing on the moon was staged.”
I didn’t know that, Thanks!
Kimba, cut/paste/&Print that last post of yours. You’ll want to read it back to yourself as YOUR sitting around that campfire your referring to, eating those weenies you mention, because that’s what you bought with your Change. I don’t know, I guess your used to weenies and marshmallows for a meal??
There is a funny thing about the “birthers” you refer to. One day you’ll have how only a few people care about the B.C. How they are this small group that means nothing. Then the next day ALL THESE Birthers are supposedly going to Affect the ENTIRE GOP! That is a Mighty influential small group of People. LMAO!!
“Hey boy, I say BOY! Go over there and fetch me that birth certificate. Get on now and don’t drag your [racial epithet] ass. NO, NOT THE SHORT ONE, the LOOOOOOOOONG ONE, you G#M!B@NM%S/B*OS! Ain’t got the brains God gave rocks.”
That’s what my southern ears here when I see folks demand to see the long form. It’s an attempt to assert authority over the president. White supremacists say that a black man should never be in authority over a white man, and I see these demands as a way to reverse roles. For those who aren’t racists, you can substitute the “L” word (liberal) for the “N” word.
Dunsy, run “copy” through dictionary.com Maybe that will help explain things to you.
I DON’T CARE!! Stop draggin me down the stupid highway with you. This idiot in office can have a Video of him being Born on the White House Lawn, I DON’T CARE! His actions alone are more than enough to show his lack of qualification for the position.
The fact that a small minority of angry vocal people are cowing the Republican Party shows how weak and disorganized they are. Michael Steele and John Boehner grew a pair and told you to drop this stuff. But you don’t respect them because even you know they’re weak and phoney and desperate. I thought your objective was to Affect President Obama into proving to you personally, individually at your own kitchen table. Instead, you’re bringing an already weak, fractured, desperate Republican Party to its knees. This is working out quite well for Pres Obama.
Yes Doc that’s how my ears hear it too and I’m not even in the south. The whole “show us your identification” is a throw back to the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793 where a black man had to prove he was actually free. When I see “Where’s the Birth Certificate” what is really being said is “Where’s your papers boy?” Black men always have to show more identification.
Then vote him out of office in 2012. However, he is constitutionally qualified to be President, TRUTH.
The people voted on who they wanted to be President. Your guy lost. So, now, you get to do it again in 4 years. You do not get to make up an excuse to say he’s not constitutionally eligible, and try to undemocratically overturn an election.
“See, there you go, putting the Lib spin on words.”
That’s a pretty remarkable achievement, considering that I’m not a liberal.
“When a person SAYS original, I REALLY doubt they mean THE ORIGINAL’ Einstein. Duhhh..”
Well, Einstein, that’s exactly what they DO mean.
“A Certified copy would be acceptable.”
Then the issue is moot because the document provided to FactCheck and published all over the internet is a certified copy. It’s embossed with the official seal and certified thus:
Since this does not satisfy the birthers, a certified copy is obviously not acceptable to them.
“Of COURSE nobody has their Originals, and if a Birther says that they are stupid.”
There’s no doubt that birthers are stupid.
“You ASK me a stupid question, they you turn around and tell me it is not possible.”
Precisely. But it’s no more stupid nor impossible than the demands being made of Obama, which was the point.
“Who’s the real confused on here?”
You’re the real confused “on” if you think that the birthers are making a request for evidence in good faith.
“Dunsy, run “copy” through dictionary.com Maybe that will help explain things to you.”
The CoLB is a transcript of the original birth certificate, and thus fits definition #1 of “copy”.
“I DON’T CARE!! Stop draggin me down the stupid highway with you.”
Yes, TRUTH doesn’t need to be dragged. He tools quite happily down the stupid highway without you, dunstvangeet.
“This idiot in office can have a Video of him being Born on the White House Lawn, I DON’T CARE! His actions alone are more than enough to show his lack of qualification for the position.”
If there has ever been a constitutional requirement for presidential competence, then the last eight years, not to mention the Harding, Grant, Buchanan, and Taylor administrations, were one long constitutional crisis.
“There are [totally bogus] emails going around saying that a government official will visit every Medicare recipient and make them fill out a form saying how they want to die.”
Wait – what I filled out, and sent back was bogus?
OMG – I asked for 500 Xanax. What will I tell my customers?
Amen, sister.
Plus it’s gone from ‘where’d you get that car, boy’ to ‘where’d you get that house, boy.’
The nerve of them. Living in the White House. Who do they think they are? I remember when I was 16, delivering papers. A customer literally said to me “that’s a job for ni_____.”
Oh, yeah? It paid for my Pentax Spotmatic.
this must be so (deliciously to me) frustrating to them:
“hey boy! i’m talkin to yew! where yew going? i said git yer butt on ovah here! now boy! yew list’nin to me? don’t yew turn yer back on yer betters! come baaaack!! stoooooppppp!!! yew just wait! yerrr gonnna beee sooorreee …”
“Luckily, I had brought along by forensic document expert with me, just in case of such doubts.”
You travel with one of them, too? I don’t feel silly anymore. I’m tired of feeding him, though.
It’s the same kind of cowardice we saw with “red baiting” in the 50’s.
Dr C, I have a question for you.
According to 1961 law and reflected in 338-005 and 338-006, a birth certificate could be filed even if no doctor or midwife was in attendance.
Do you know if the COLB would reflect the manner of registration?
338-006 allows others to file as well
Note that the COLB would not show delayed or altered.
Any thoughts
Now the birthers again. They are saying about a birth of twins after or around Obama’s birth that they both have long forms
and that Obama’s bc certificate # is out of secuence:
Obama= 151-1961-010641
1rst twin= 151-61-10637
2cond twin=151-10638
They say it is not suppose to be 1961, just 61.
Can anybody tell me what can I say to these trolls?
Y2K.
The twins’ COLBs will read 151-1961-01063X.
Obama’s birth certificate will read 151-61-10641.
(And how does the numbering discount Fukino’s statement? Are they calling her and the government of Hawaii liars?)
It’s still all a red herring argument by the birthers.
Obviously there has to be a means to register out-of-hospital births — sometimes these are just unplanned emergencies. All statutes have a regulatory framework, and Hawaii would have had a specific set of regulations and procedures governing the paperwork to be filed in such a case. (presumably an affidavit of some sort).
But once Hawaii accepted such a submission for filing, that represents an administration determination that the facts as presented by the affidavit are true.
The birth certificate issued — and any subsequent COLB — would still stand as prima facie evidence of birth. Proof that it was a non-hospital, non-physician assisted birth would in no way undermine that determination.
The birthers confuse the idea of evidence that something “could” have been fraudulent with evidence of actual fraud. But there’s alway an outside chance of fraud — a doctor can tell lies, too. (Hawaii, being an island in the middle of the Pacific, is an unlikely place for fraud as to place of birth – but I am not so sure about border communities such as Nogales or El Paso, where it is conceivable that a doctor could be paid to falsely attest to the birth of a newborn who actually arrived hours earlier on the wrong side of the border)
The point is, certain official documents, including birth certificates, are presumed to be truthful and accurate absent affirmative evidence (not speculation) of fraud.
According to the law, the only thing that would need to be marked would be if it was a delayed birth certificate (birth registered more than a year after the event) and an amended certificate of birth (adoption, paternity suits, or other things).
Other than that, there is no law to mark it.
Again, as to the “sequence” part — birth certificates are not created at the time of birth; they are created at the time of filing of paperwork subsequent to birth. The paperwork for each filing consists of 2 documents – a medical worksheet from the doctor or facility where the birth took place, and a parental worksheet usually filled out by the new mom. These are generally completed and submitted within a few days after birth.
Obama was born on a Friday evening; the twins were born Saturday afternoon. Even if all worksheets were completed as quickly as possible, the Hawaii Dept of Health probably was open only during regular business hours, Monday-Friday — so at best the paperwork for births from late Friday through Sunday would have been submitted as a batch on Monday morning, and there is no particular reason to expect that they would have been sorted in any particular order.
The proximity of the numbers is evidence that all were submitted at about the same time, probably from the same facility.
And to play the birfer absence-of-evidence-can-still-be-evidence game, where is this mysterious person with Hawaiian birth certificate no. 151-61-10641?
That would be a golden ticket, to say the least.
(And the fact that this person hasn’t come forward yet means the Obama Thugs(tm) got to them first!)
And how could a forger have known so precisely what the certificate number should have been?
Hint: the COLB is legitimate.
In an electronic birth registration system (and I was working on some electronic birth records just this afternoon) there are typically two data fields in the record, a certificate number and an event year (or birth year).
Back in 1961, kiddies, before the year 2000 loomed large before the trembling fingers of computer programmers, folks were blissfully happy to express years with just two digits. Then came Y2K, and the great awakening to the other two digits in a year. Computer systems designed close to the year 2000 and following were programmed to handle 4-digit years. Hawaii’s system is from 2001. When the computer spat out Obama’s birth certificate, it stuck a constant 151 (the jurisdiction), the now 4-digit year of birth and then the certificate number (which starts over at 1 each year).
If a certified copy of the long form ever comes to light, it will say “61” just like all the rest.
I shake my head in amazement as birthers try to make something out of nothing. Of course, if all you have is nothing to start with….
Good explanation Expelliarmus but many of the birthers are saying: If the twins have a long BC that means Obama should have one. How come he doesn’t show it? And why Obama’s is showing 1961 while the twins shows only “61”. Oh God, this will never end!!
Thaks, Doc. Another birther smackdown, they can’t never win an argument, you are always sooo helpful!
God Bless!
Because computer systems written in the last 15 years have 4-digit years in them. Obama’s COLB was printed in 2007.
The COLB would not look different for an attended birth and an unattended birth. However, Obama was born on a Friday and his birth was registered the following Tuesday. Taking out the weekend when the health department would have been closed, there is only one day between the day of birth and the day of registration. I really do not see how an unattended birth, with the requisite fact finding could possibly be registered that fast. I think the close proximity of the date of birth and the registration rules out an unattended birth (based on what the COLB says).
It is important to note on section (b) that this is not an alteration, but a completion of something left blank. I don’t know the regulations in effect in Hawaii in 1961, but I could imagine a hospital birth where the child was not named immediately. It might also be the case that the father’s name (particularly in the case of an illegitimate child) was subsequently added. The full application of this provision requires knowing the time limit for such supplementary filings–a regulation rather than a law. My guess is 30 days.
“jtx: it is not a citizen falling under the 14th Amendment”. So, according to you, a black person can never be President, jtx? Because didn’t the 14th Amendment essentially confer citizenship rights upon black people, when they were previously considered 3/5ths of a human being? And therefore, wouldn’t that make every black person a “citizen under the 14th Amendment”? Thank you for proving the theory that this issue is mostly (though not all) race-based.
Obama would have one if he REQUESTED it prior to 2001 (or perhaps even earlier) — but Hawaii stopped issuing them like that. As you can see from the twins certificate, that was not an original either, but a photocopy of a microfilm negative.
Obama would not have had any need to request a birth certificate earlier, because he had a passport, and that serves as valid ID for all purposes. Obama’s mom would have needed to present a birth certificate to get his passport, but that was in the early 1960’s, and that document could have been lost or misplaced since that time.
And Dr. Conspiracy is right about the computer system. Many systems were entirely recoded in 1999 because there was a fear they would crash with the turn of the century. (If I told you that a relative of mine was born in ’08 you wouldn’t know when that was, unless I also explained whether I was talking about my grandfather or my grandson).
One notes that the reason we HAVE a 14th Amendment is precisely to PREVENT the states from denying citizenship to the former slaves.
Dr. C – and it seems to me that they are trying to deny him his rightful place as a natural born citizen.
I read this kind of stuff and think of Neil Young’s Southern Man – “How long? How long?”
Southerners, others, How Long before you leave this stuff behind?
Fact finding? Any competent doctor could determine if a baby was newborn. Seeing as Hawaii is out in the middle of nowhere it is hard to imagine where else a newborn baby could be from.That, and the fact that her doctor would have known she was pregnant up to nine months before birth. The Hospital only had to confirm with a 5 minute phone call.
If there were any legitimacy to the birther theory, wouldn’t the GOP have exploited this bore the election? Or the other Democratic candidate (Hillary)?
If Bobby Jindal decides to run for President next time, will there be birthers around? They can say he can’t be president because his parents weren’t born here; they’ll say he’s a Muslim (he’s not–born a Hindu, converted to Catholicism). Or maybe they won’t bother because he’s a conservative, antiabortionist Republican.
Jindal is not a NBC, therefore, he cannot legitimately run for POTUS – however, we currently have a non-NBC in the oval office, so I guess there is nothing stopping Jindal.
However – I for one, would not knowingly cast a vote for someone who is not eligible. In other words – I wouldn’t vote for him and would be appalled that the RNC would allow his name to be printed on the ballot.
By any legal standard Obama is actually NBC.
As is Jindal.
Produce the long form, if it exists, and much of the birther’s arguments will evaporate. Open the educational records and much of the birther’s arguments will evaporate. BUT even if he was born in Hawaii, his mother was not a US resident/citizen for the required time in order for her to confer US citizenship to Obama. Thus he is not a natural born citizen as required by Article 2.
Barack Obama is not legally a U.S. Natural-born citizen according to the law on the books at the time of his birth, which falls between “December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986. Presidential office requires a natural-born citizen if the child was not born to two U.S. Citizen parents, which of course is what exempts John McCain though he was born in the Panama Canal. US Law very clearly stipulates: “…If only one parent was a U.S. Citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16.” Barack Obama’s father was not a U.S. Citizen and Obama’s mother was only 18 when Obama was born, which means though she had been a U.S. Citizen for 10 years, (or citizen perhaps because of Hawaii being a territory) the mother fails the test for being so for at least 5 years **prior to** Barack Obama’s birth, but *after* age 16. It doesn’t matter *after* . In essence, she was not old enough to qualify her son for automatic U.S. Citizenship. At most, there were only 2 years elapsed since his mother turned 16 at the time of Barack Obama’s birth when she was 18 in Hawaii. His mother would have needed to have been 16+5= 21 years old, at the time of Barack Obama’s birth for him to have been a natural-born citizen. As aforementioned, she was a young college student at the time and was not. Barack Obama was already 3 years old at that time his mother would have needed to have waited to have him as the only U.S. Citizen parent. Obama instead should have been naturalized, but even then, that would still disqualify him from holding the office
*** Naturalized citizens are ineligible to hold the office of President. *** Though Barack Obama was sent back to Hawaii at age 10, all the other info does not matter because his mother is the one who needed to have been a U.S. Citizen for 10 years prior to his birth on August 4, 1961, with 5 of those years being after age 16. Further, Obama may have had to have remained in the country for some time to protect any citizenship he would have had, rather than living in Indonesia.
by godfrey, i believe you’ve cracked the case wide open. i hope you told someone this before the election.
Uh, that only applies to birth OUTSIDE of the US…Otherwise, all children born to mothers under 21 would be stateless persons. But I’m sure you knew that.
Please refrain from appropriating the title of a revered figure, sir. TheDude you ain’t.
But of course, there is no need for Barack Obama to be “naturalized” or for his mother or father to have met any criteria. The Constitution itself (the 14th Amendment in particular) says that everyone born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction is born a citizen. The only persons born in the United States and not fully under its jurisdiction are those made so by law, and specifically foreign heads of state, ambassadors and their families.
TheDude: Produce the long form, if it exists, and much of the birther’s arguments will evaporate.
The jokes contest is here: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/birther-jokes-contest/
TheDude is just following the Birther line:
a) just show us the Birth certificate
b) just show us his kindergarten records
c) but none of that matters because President Obama is not eligible because of X or Y or Z.
Superfluous hint: if you finish by saying that none of the records matter because he still isn’t eligible, why would anyone bother to give you the records?
If only one parent was a U.S. Citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16.”
Only if the child were born outside the US. You ignoramus.
You ignoramus, that is only for children born outside the US.
Do you enjoy making yourself look so foolish?
Pathetic, that you allow yourself to be so manipulated by your ignorance.
After Barry renounced his U.S. Citizenship as a prerequisite to becoming an Indonesian National, he could have established his U.S. Citizenship before he turned age 18 years and 6 months with an application and oath of allegiance at any U.S. Embassy or Consulate.
But if he did that, the scholarships reserved for foreign nationals would have dried up and he would’ve endured the American Experience.
Idiot.
dick witless, living up to his name:
i hadn’t heard barry white renounced his citizenship. or was that barry manilow?
Barry Nelson.
I think Sven likes looking like a complete ass….Very soon we will see the Indonesian refugee status theory again. Sven seems to intentionally forget that a minor cannot renounce his US citizenship nor has any evidence every been shown that this happened. Nor can Sven explain how 6 year old Barack was able to leave the US and move to Indonesia unless he had a US passport.
Jackass.
Hey, name calling works! I feel better already.
And I fully support Lt. General McTiernan’s call for Muslim men to be strip searched.
We’ll start with the one in the Oval Office.
Unfortunately since McTiernan reports to the President it is highly unlikely that would happen…But that is as much fantasy as your Indonesian refugee and diplomatic consular passport theories….
Talk about an inane idea.
How does one go about identifying a Muslim man? Islam is a religion, not a race or an ethnic type. There are Middle Eastern Muslims, black Muslims, white Muslims, Filipino Muslims, Indonesian Muslims. Are you going to strip search Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?
In your ignorance of Indonesian law, you are allowing you fantasies to run a little to wild.
You have a strange fantasy with strip searching Muslim Men, Dick
Only an Obot could believe the St. Francis Assisi Foundation School in Jakarta, Indonesia would create a false document claiming Barry Soetoro was an Indonesian National and hold it for over 40 years just to prevent him from usurping the Office of the President of the United States.
Why would they do such a thing?
Let’s look at the more obvious explanation namely that the school either assumed that Barry was a muslim and an Indonesian citizen or was misled by Barry’s parents as Indonesian law does not allow for Barry to become an Indonesian citizen.
Common sense my dear friend, especially in absence of any supporting evidence and the fact that Obama describes returning to Hawaii with his US passport as a US citizen.
Makes you wonder…
How desperate can Dick get?
Furthermore, under US law, the father cannot denounce the citizenship of the child and the child is not able to denounce it either. So either way, you lose.
Sven,
It would really help if you would use the correct names when referring to people. It’s Mcinerney.
And I know its hard for you to understand this, but stop being a fear monger.
I don’t know whether you are personally scared of the idea of a black man in the white house, or whether you are acting on behalf of a foreign entity or whether you are just using fear for your own selfish objectives.
Why do I say you being a fear monger? Because you throw out the discredited fantasy that President Obama must be a muslim. Even John McCain denounced that for what it was- a fear mongering lie. It is an attempt to smear the President by attaching to him an unpopular label.
It is doubly dispicable because it dishonors the many fine muslims who have given their lives in service to the United States to protect people just like yourself.
You have no shame.
And how do you even know that the document is authentic? Is it certified? Does it have a raised seal? A signature? Is it the vault copy? Has it been examined by Ron Polarik?
So many questions, so little sense coming from Sven.
NBC, Sven was just over at tROSL with his fantasy about a 6-10 year old Barry Obama renouncing his US citizenship. However as usual he had not one shred of proof. And the law he cites states that for minors under the age of 16, it would take even more than just his word for the Consulate official to accept this renounciation.
You know, it’s not like they don’t give scholarships to high-achieving African-Americans.
Are you really saying that the scholarships for foreign students from Indonesia are more plentiful than those for African-Americans?
Since you refuse to believe in the COLB why should anyone trust this so called document? Was it verified? And what about where it says that he was born in Hawaii? Should we belive that part of the document? I may be wrong but I don’t see this document meeting the standards of the FRE.
What “scholarships reserved for foreign nationals.”?
Name one.
I just love the logic of John and his ilk.
Starts from: “What if President Obama used scholarships reserved for non-U.S. citizens?” and goes to:
“The President must prove he didn’t use scholarships that non-citizens used.
“What if the President was born in Africa” to:
“The President must prove he was not born in Africa”
really pretty sickening and so violates what America stands for.
Dick has no shame. All he has is his hate and an internet connection.
Soon he’ll die lonely and forgotten, replaced in the circle of life by someone more enlightened. Perhaps even darker-hued.
And the world will be better for it.
Actually Dick/Sven is to my mind just a troll. I doubt he believes half the stuff he writes.
You know you’ve lost when have to play the race card to shut down the argument.
Dick, if you think this is a debate, you need to watch Monty Python’s “Argument Clinic.” A debate is not where you simply repeat the same discredited claims over and over.