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CommieTunes – Obama, Communist Usurper – Ineligible to Serve – Marxist / Socialist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp_p0s824g
Nice Compilation.
the birther cry of credibility.
Buh-buh-but I’m SURE that I readon many birfer blogs that Appuzo has scored a major victory here which shows that the President…isn’t.
I, for one, am sweating bullets!
James, grasping for straws because a lack of a coherent argument again.
The MGEN then says the House and Senate need to serve notice on Obama to clear up his eligibility or resign.
http://networkedblogs.com/67pQU
I think the general makes reasonable request.
Obama has a black cloud hover over his head that he needs to clear up.
While many birthers will contend he is not a NBC, I really do feel that NBC argument is really not shared by the political talking heads but more the general birther populas.
If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.
Well you can choose to “believe” whatever you want James.
However, what is fairly certain is that Obama will continue to simply ignore you birthers, as he should. All I can say for you is good luck finding someone else to vote for in 2012, but there is a fairly good chance you’ll simply have to get used to your “disappointment” until 2017.
James and other Denialists: The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:
http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html
Sorry.
The matter IS closed.
Birthers are waging a shameful smear campaign against the state government of Hawaii.
well, obama did produce his bc in 2008, after which many political talking heads, such as bill o’reilly, ann coulter, sean hannity, michelle malkin, glenn beck, chris matthews, michael medved, david horowitz, as well as his chief political rivals, john mccain and hillary clinton, all publicly considered the matter closed. even birfer flagellant rag wnd signed off on the bc.
(of course, the matter wasn’t truly closed until the night of nov 4 2008, but that would be nit-picking.)
Who the hell is MGEN and why should I care?
though it is a surprise to see James express an actual opinion rather than just cut and paste someone else’s thoughts.
The M-who? Never heard of them.
James you are starting to get silly.
You really are a dunce, aren’t you? You just blurt out words without any clues as to what they mean, do you?
You might as well call Obama a catamite or a cathar. It would make just as much sense.
You obviously have never read Marx and have no idea what socialism (which itself has different incarnations) is all about. Even reading the wiki entry would be an improvement.
When it comes to State intervention in the economy (to focus on asingle issue) you have no clues that Obama is to the right of Richard Nixon, who, using your insane and totally incorrect definition, would be the greatest Socialist president in US history after FDR?
That your narrow bigoted mind hates Obama because you can’t accept that a man of color be a legitimate president, I can understand, but that you and your ilk hurl what you think in your deranged mind are insults without the least understanding of their actual meaning, like a child screaming booga booga in the night, is just utterly mad.
Your country has been practicing socialism for nearly a century now, without which you would have no aerospace and no defense industries; you would never have gone to the Moon and army-wise, you’d be weak as a kitten. You wouldn’t have some of the best universities in the world, nor any agriculture left standing in the midwest.
Your tribe of blabbering gibbons spit on what made the USA great day after day, and with each spittle, you’re driving your country further and further behind.
You’re pathetic.
Federal loan guarantees started with Nixon, for Lockheed. Nixon started wage and price controls to tame inflation, he recognized China and abrogated the treaty with Taiwan, and created the EPA. He also paid from his own pocket, RT tickets on a commercial flight rather than Air Force One, for a visit to California to set an example. Egypt recognized Israel, because of Nixon.
Nixon was a Quaker, and did not wear religion on his sleeve.
In fact, Nixon was a liberal, who became greedy. Google it.
This quick bit of research is for James the witless:
Nixon initiated the Environmental Decade by signing the National Environmental Policy Act, the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the Federal Water Pollution Control Act amendments of 1972, as well as establishing many government agencies. These included the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and the Council on Environmental Quality.
Nixon re-imposed price controls in June 1973 (echoing his 1971 plan), as food prices rose.
Nixon also dramatically increased spending on federal employees’ salaries.
In his 1974 State of the Union address, Nixon called for comprehensive health insurance.
On February 6, 1974, he introduced the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Nixon’s plan would have mandated employers to purchase health insurance for their employees, and in addition provided a federal health plan, similar to Medicaid, that any American could join by paying on a sliding scale based on income. (You guys missed a major opportunity there.)
On January 2, 1974, Nixon signed a bill that lowered the maximum U.S. speed limit to 55 miles per hour to conserve gasoline.
I could go on but you can read the wiki entry for yourself.
Obama could only DREAM of being as “socialist” as Nixon, and in any event, these are some of the policies which made your country great. Your country was richer, healthier and moire respected and envied.
I swear, it’s as if you guys were a fifth column of Invaders tasked with destroying the United States.
Of course you don’t realize it because you’re as “moran”.
Impossible – think again!
Ask your leftist blogger friend for a breakdown of costs of travel by ship from Mombasa to Honolulu.
A check of government records could tell us whether Obama’s mother was outside the country in August 1961. Perhaps this is the reason why Dr.C cannot get the straight answer to his FOIA request from January 2009.
There is even a lawsuit, filed by Kenneth Allen, to have Stanley Ann’s travel records released. The court gave a deadline for records to be released (June 30, 2010). It is three weeks past the court ordered deadline and the government is still hiding this information. What happened to the promise of transparency – just another election campaign lie?
I’m shocked, shocked! Politicians make promises to get elected. Shocked I tell you!
Of course when they’re white, we forgive them,. It’s only when they’re shifty, lazy n*** that we KNOW deep in our little bigoted hearts that there must be some kind of fraud being perpetrated because they could NEVER be elected presidents, could they?
The blogger who wrote that is me. Look at a map, and see the ship route that you claim.
And you are clinically insane.
We’ve been down your Kenyan rabbit hole too many times.
Get new material without the desperate and paranoid, “I’m making up crap that sounds good to me” angle. And ask your left hand about your right hand. They both hold puppets. Perhaps this is why birthers are ridiculed.
Transparency (as has been explained to you ad nauseam, naturalized citizen) means in administration not for legally protected personal information sought by guano psychotic information thieves.
Reading your comments it is just another birther smear lie. No court has order for the release of any records relating to the president or any of his family member. How many must the courts say “NO” for you to understand the word “no?” Is it 71 times?
Transparency refers to how government works and makes decisions. Anything more you might be referring to “the transparency of an ice cube.”
Dr. Misha, two questions for you:
1. What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?
2. What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?
Do you consider Dr. C a “guano psychotic information thief”?
He has a FOIA request for Stanley Ann’s passport records (pending for 18 months).
– What is it that makes a trip from Mombasa to Honolulu by ship impossible?
You tell me the route, and how long it would take to travel 11K miles, with a newborn, a diaper case, and luggage. You still haven’t looked at a map.
2 – What is your explanation for US government’s refusal to release travel records for Stanley Ann?
Show me who made the request, and how it was refused. Links, please.
It’s pending. It has not been refused. BTW, I don’t care.
The information I have is that entry and exit records do not exist that far back (1961). My FOIA is simply for a record of when passports were issued.
1. Retired Army Major General Jerry Ralph Curry.
2. Don’t know.
I love the complete ignorance of world geography shared by all birthers.
I’m sure they all think that Mombasa is just a stone’s throw away from Obama’s grandmother’s village – and I’m pretty sure that the idea of a voyage by ship comes from people who are unaware of the existence of the Indian Ocean (they probably think that Africa has a Pacific coast line).
I created this article as a place to move the 27 comments from my “Reading between the lines” article, none of which were about that article. Rather James (who is smelling more like a troll every day) hijacked it by dumping a provocative off-topic comment first before any other discussion could take root.
Do not feed the trolls.
I suppose reservations on a ship from Mombasa may become the new stock answer to the obvious question as to why Mrs Obama would give birth in a city that was not only thousands of miles from her residence, but also hundreds of miles from her husband’s home village.
Good luck getting the ship to Hawaii within four days of the birth to register it. Not having the child listed in any passport would add considerable difficulty to the journey.
Oh, the grandmother registered the birth? Under Hawaiian law, she would need to be able to show that there was an unattended birth that no parent could report within the required time. So you’re saying that she was able to get a registrar to break the law and allow the registration even though there would be:
1. No presence of the child and no confirmation that the child even existed
2. Nothing to confirm that the child’s parents had died or were unable to report the birth
3. Nothing to confirm that the parents would be unable to to come and register the birth within the required time
The usual birther response is, “A registrar could have just registered the birth without asking the questions they should have.” If there is any reason to believe this, then I would expect there to be documented cases of this happening under the birth registration system in place whilst Hawaii was a state. Why have the birthers not presented one? Why does the State Department accept Hawaiian Certifications of Live Birth as primary evidence of citizenship for passport issuing purposes?
Also, if Obama was born in Kenya, then why has no person found any record for him in the Kenya’s public birth registration records? (If your response cites a certificate supposedly issued in the name of the Republic of Kenya at a time when Kenya was a constitutional monarchy, then I will laugh at you.)
If Obama does produce his long-form BC as well as passport records to show he is a US Citizen, then I believe many political talking heads while consider the matter closed.
The matter was closed in June 2008 – not that it was ever a open matter. You birthers just made it all up.
1. He did present his legal birth proof to the general public and the official agency that is the final authority in birth records in HI confirmed the facts.
2. He HAS a US passport.
Where am I wrong exactly.
What evidence do you have to the contrary?
Be specific.
This is why every birther claim and case has collapsed upon contact with reality.
There have been zero positive judicial outcomes to date in over 70 cases. Every birther case has failed as fast as is possible. These pointless failed cases have been appealed to strecth out the farce to drive paypal donations (income to the lawyers) and failed as predicted.
You will note that the birther lawyers have provided no accounting records to show how much money has been raised and spent.
How come Mario won’t show his 2009 tax returns? Why don’t birthers demand to see those?
Dupes
James – bigot, traitor, liar. I’ll take the Marxist over him any day, thank you very much.
Whoops, that was me. Early morning blues, I’m afraid!
Oh, NC, NC. You’re beating a horse so dead it disintegrated over a year ago. Why are you still at it? And why won’t you admit that you’ve done this all before? Afraid that someone besides me will look up all those threads on the Independent and see just how insane you are?
I saw this is an old WND article. Make you really wonder….
The third president born in a medical facility, George W. Bush, was welcomed into the world in 1946 at the Grace–New Haven Community Hospital – later renamed the Yale–New Haven Hospital – in New Haven, Conn.
No plaques or monuments mark the hospital as Bush’s birthplace, though the communications office does have a 2-page information packet on the birth and the history of the hospital at the time, including a biographical paragraph on the doctor who attended the 43rd president’s birth.
“Margaret (Maggie) Tyler, M.D., delivered the president,” the packet explains. “Dr. Tyler was a member of the New Haven Hospital and then the Grace–New Haven Hospital medical staff in the department of obstetrics and gynecology from about 1922-1949. She served a residency in obstetrics at New Haven Hospital from 1919-21 and joined the staff in 1922 as an associate obstetrician.”
Isn’t that HIPPA violation????
1. You have a difficult time parsing reality especially with regards to a pregnant woman in 1961. Not that it matters. You make crap up to fit your delusions because you’re in pain.
2. I wouldn’t rule out bureaucratic complications.
No. But your far fetched fantasies puts you there.
not impossible…….. just insane bat crap improbable. from what i could find of the passenger ship routes the journey would look something like this:
kenya > tanzania > sri lanka > india > singapore > philippines > hawaii
Misha has a nice rundown:
http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html
Actually, your facts in the Allen case are wrong. The court did not give the government a deadline. The parties involved reached an agreement, whereby the government would search for documents and that the search should be completed by June 30th. There was no date assigned for when any documents had to be turned over.
great rundown by misha but it doesn’t go into the option of ocean liner travel ( which is why i suspect nc1 keeps going back to it ). so……. i crunched a few numbers.
– going off the route i posted above the voyage is 12,755 miles each way.
– at 33mph ( the cruising speed of the queen mary, one of the fastest ocean liners at that time ) the trip would have taken just over 16 days ( 386.5 hours ) each way.
– take into consideration a minimum of one day in each port ( not including kenya/tanzania and hawaii ) and we’re up to 20 days each way.
a 40 day round-trip ocean voyage is nc1’s probable scenario.
That’s “HIPAA”. There are several factors that would have to be considered before one could determine if the hospital brochure you describe about the birth of George Bush is is a HIPAA violation.
1. Did George W. Bush sign an authorization for the release of information?
2. Was the document published before December 28, 2000, the effective date of the HIPAA Privacy Rule?
There may be other considerations too, including differing legal opinions on the status of protected health information collected before the Rule went into effect.
I wondered if there really was such an information packet or whether this was another birther urban legend. It appears that the hospital did go on the record about Bush’s birth in a 2002 article in the New York Times.
Well done. That’s just what a young, pregnant girl wants to do when a nice hospital like the Kapi’olani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu was only a few minutes away.
The time period. The birth was registered on August 8, 1961, and Obama was born on (according to every birth certificate that I’ve seen) August 4, 1961. That is a 4-day trip.
The trip would have taken 10,728 miles (approx). that is a straight shot, and probably would have been more. If you take it over the 4 days, that is 2,682 miles a day (approx), and 111 miles an hour. The trip by boat would take most likely over a week.
To give you an approximation, the fastest Ocean Liners travel at 40 knots, or approximately 40 miles per hour. For what you state to be possible, the ship would have to go about 3 times as fast as the fastest Ocean Liners go.
Not to mention that travel by ocean liner would have been far more expensive than flying, considering that travel by ocean liner would have included 40 days of meals, etc.
The proponent’s mental ability of this theory is a hamburger, small fries, a drink and a fun toy shy of a Happy Meal.
Stanley Ann: Honey, I think the baby is coming. We should go to the hospital.
Barack Sr.: Grab your passport and let’s go!
they could have packed 240 bologna and cheese sandwiches. it’s not impossible.
LMAO
Obama is the #1 mystery man of our times. Is he a closet Marxist, closet Muslim, Freemason, Zionist puppet, Bilderberger, Manchurian Candidate? Scope his shady past fast free and accurate anytime with the Historyscoper and see how deep his rabbit hole goes:
http://historyscoper.com/obamascope.html
Re: Allen v Soetoro FOIA suit:
This is the government’s response filed on June 7, 2010:
Government travel records? Forgive me as I am a little confused. I do not recall the US Government keeping tabs on their citizens travels. My only records would be flight tickets and visa stamps on my passport (minus my various travels into Canada). When reentering, the custom agents only took a quick look at my document(s) (passport, or drivers license for Canada, which was all that was needed then).
Isn’t monitoring the travel of the citizens something found in totalitarian government countries?
That’s apropos for nc the naturalized citizen from eastern Europe.
Since they were from Hawaii it would probably be Spam.
there are birther comments of Obama’s mother sending postcards from a boat. In the mind of a birther that’s proof of travel to Mombasa!
.
After college, I left Hawaii and went to Seattle, while there I took advantage of the many ferries and took mini vacations, often I purchased and mailed postcards from these boats to friends. Really great and inexpensive mini vacations. When Obama’s mother went to seattle she did the same. From that we get “she mailed post cards from her boat trip to Mombasa. That’s the birther mentality! That’s a bit more than reading between the lines.
Mrs Bun: Have you got anything without Spam?
Waitress: Well, Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam; that’s not got much Spam in it.
Mrs Bun: I don’t want any Spam!
Mr Bun: Why can’t she have egg, bacon, Spam, and sausage?
Mrs Bun: That’s got Spam in it!
Mr Bun: Not as much as Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam,
Mrs. Bun: Look, could I have egg, bacon, Spam and sausage, without the Spam?
Waitress: Bleurgh!
Mrs. Bun: What do you mean “Ugh?” I don’t like Spam!
Vikings: [singing] Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam… Lovely Spam! Wonderful Spam!
Birthers think that the passport records will show trips to Mombasa. The problem is that passports don’t do that. The visa’s stamped in your passport book are not sent to some central agency, they are not sent anywhere. The only way you can tell where someone went is to have the original passport book in your hand. This is probably a bit over a birthers head.
When someone renews their US passport today, the State Department cancels the passport (by stamping “CANCELLED” across the page opposite the identity page and punching several holes through the front and back covers) and returns the old passport when it delivers the new one. For this reason, the State Department does not put cancelled passports in its archives.
I don’t know what standard practice was in previous decades, but I doubt that it differed much.
The State Department could take photocopies of all visa pages before issuing the new passport and returning the old one, but I doubt that it would bother. Among other things, this would increase the administrative burden of processing a passport renewal.
The reason for returning the cancelled passport is that there may be a visa in the old passport that remains valid and capable of being used by presenting both the old and new passports.
When we were in HI this past winter we were astounded to see the varieties of Spam on the store shelves. Probably the only place that this many types are sent.
U.S Navy legend has it that on a six month submarine tour the passageways are lined with supplies and upon return, the passageways are clear except for the cases of Spam.
A commenter asked on Orly Taitz’s blog:
My comment in response is stuck in moderation (and will probably remain there eternally). It says:
Of course, Orly Taitz says that she has standing because she asked for discovery and stands to imminently lose money. And she wonders why she keeps losing.
Oddly enough, my comment on Taitz’s blog survived moderation. Additionally, Taitz responded:
I have responded with the following (which is still stuck in moderation at the moment):
I do genuinely mean the last sentence of my most recent response. I am starting to feel sorry for Taitz. She is genuinely in over her head. She is like many litigants in person. She has a sense that she has been wronged and has notions of justice and the judiciary that do not correspond with anything that the courts can actually do for her. She has a naive understanding of various legal concepts that is sufficient to assert them but not to deal with argument over the nuances. If she were not a lawyer, the courts would look upon her sympathetically. However, because of her law licence, she is expected to know better even though she genuinely does not.
then…. why are there not 71 sanctions ? honestly.
She couldn’t possibly be sanctioned 71 times because she is not involved in most of the birther cases.
A great many birther lawsuits have been dismissed sua sponte without the defendant even being served. All of these are cases where the court has bothered to look at the matter as soon as it is filed because it involves a pro se litigant who is filing in forma pauperis. In such cases, the courts make sure that the case might have some merit because the person filing pays no costs whatsoever and has no financial incentive to avoid filing hopeless claims.
The problem with Taitz is that she has just enough legal knowledge to file motions and appeals to prolong the matter, but not enough to realise that there is no point. All the praise that she receives on her web site seems to support her delusion that she’s pursuing a major case with great skill.
I could just imagine Taitz walking down the courthouse steps, declaring, Ã la Norma Desmond:
“My submission do have merit. It’s the courts that are frivolous.”
“We don’t need standing. We have web site hits.”
“You see, this is my life! It always will be! Nothing else! Just us, the motions for reconsideration, and those wonderful people out there on the Internet!… All right, your honour, I’m ready for my pro hac vice privileges.”
I do not have any sympathy for her at all. Her attacks on others, including her repeated releasing of their personal information, SSNs and calls to her followers to hassle folks are vile and harassment. Regardless of her very questionable sanity, she is a vengeful smear merchant who lashes out viciously at anyone who disagrees with her. She is a hypocrite who knowingly uses frauds & con artists and knowingly will submit questionable evidence. She is lucky that none of her cases can make it past standing or she’d really be in trouble. She is an incompetent hack and an adulterer with poor taste and even worse decision making skills. She’s a drama queen who sees conspiracies everywhere and blames everyone else in the world for the slightest random thing, such as problems with her car and her own maleware-infested site.
No, I have no sympathy for her at all. I think she needs serious mental help and is way overdue for being disbarred. Although she can provide a lot of entertainment, she is a vile, reprehensible, self-serving menace. She belongs locked away somewhere in a straitjacket.
I suppose I’m too much of a bleeding heart liberal. My view is that her paranoia is such that it is difficult for her to function as a normal human being. Delusions of being persecuted probably produce trauma similar to that of actual persecution. The persona that she has developed as queen of the birthers seems to have led to narcissism in addition to exacerbation of her paranoia.
I think that disbarment would probably be appropriate. She clearly isn’t fit to practise law. She might be able to get over her issues and lead a more normal existence if she limits her pursuits to dentistry–not that I would trust my teeth or gums to her.
I would have similar feelings for her if her actions were limited to her immediate surroundings, but that is not the case. She & the other birthers foment sedition which can only end badly for someone. They must be shown the error of their ways.
I just read something on Taitz’s blog that really made me stop and think. Here’s the title:
Yes, she has gone there.
The gist of it:
When I read blanket generalizations about birthers being racists, I have often raised Taitz as a prominent example who was not. Yes, an extreme ant-Muslim bigot, but that technically is not racism. But here she is now, parroting words that could've come straight from David Duke's mouth: no decency for whites, only decency for blacks.
So perhaps I should've posted this under the thread about admitting when we're wrong — but I'm not quite ready to admit I was wrong. The racists who spread this meme, about whites being treated badly while blacks are treated well, spread it with the aim of misleading and misinforming. So it comes as no surprise if some who aren't paying much attention wind up misled and misinformed. Since this racist talking point is this week's GOP talking point, and since Taitz has never questioned a right-wing talking point, it's really not surprising to see her mindlessly repeating it.
Of course, Taitz's narcissism is blazing through this post as well, but why go into that.
I'm thinking Taitz should ask Alan Keyes if he would agree that this country is really much nicer to blacks than to whites. She might learn something.
I cannot feel sympathy for someone who posts personal information including information about an elderly relative of Obama’s. Anyone could have gone to this woman’s home and confronted her. Again, no sympathy for her.
I have no sympathy for that shonde. She is nothing more than a run of the mill refusenik, licking her wounds. Plus, she is an anti-semite. How can someone Jewish be an anti-semite? She hates Arabs.
Read this: http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2009/10/orly-taitz-racist.html
Doc,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=852B5rcRnBs Hector Maldanado speaks again.
I was wondering whether it is true that John Boehner submitted a birth certificate for John McCain. (It is about at 4:40 in the video) I wasn’t aware that MCCain’s certificate was submitted to the Republican party. Excuse me if you have addressed that before.
I don’t know about McSame, but here is Sarah Palin’s BC – really.
I traveled to Germany, Switzerland and France in 2002, but you would never know it from my passport. Germany and Switzerland didn’t stamp it, and the border between Switzerland and France was open. The only stamp in my passport for that trip was when I went through U.S. immigration upon my return. Ditto with a trip I took to Italy in 1999. The stamping of passports by foreign countries is very haphazard. Even if the U.S. has kept a record of the times I went through U.S. immigration, for the most part there is no record of where I had been.
And don’t forget she has ruined careers.
” strange women lying in ponds and distributing swords is no basis for government . ”
– dennis
His claim at least has the advantage of novelty. I’ve never heard that before. Perhaps someone should ask Boehner and/or McCain to verify this.
You would have completed a customs declaration form on return to the US. This form included a question about the countries that you had visited. The archives of US Customs and Border Protection (or its predecessor agency) might contain this declaration, though it is also possible that these records are destroyed after a given time period.
A person who renounces their US Citizenship is asked to return their US passport to US Consulate before a Certificate of Loss of Nationality is issued.
Along with the Statement of Understanding and Oath of Renouncement, a return of a US Passport is evidence of intent to renounce. Furthermore, notes and commentary by
the FSO interviewing the renuncient are kept on file.
It is unlikely we will see Stanley Ann’s passport record.
McCain uses a Certificate of Citizenship issued by the US State Department to prove US citizenship. A foreign issued BC only proves the person was born in a foreign country and says nothing about US Citizenship.
Not all US Citizens have a BC. Immigrants use a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the US State Department to prove citizenship.
Those who renounce their US citizenship apparently have their cancelled pasports returned to them when a Certificate of Loss of Nationality is issued.
There is no reason to believe that Mrs Obama ever relinquished her US citizenship. Even if she had, her son would have been entitled to keep his citizenship.
I have tried posting a response, only to find that it does not post. I do not even get a notice that it is awaiting moderation. Is there something wrong with Dr C’s server?
Ah, my last comment went through. I don’t know why the earlier comment did not go through despite two attempts. Maybe the blockquote or links were a problem.
I merely wished to make two points:
1. A renunciant’s cancelled passport is return when the CLN is issued.
2. There is no reason to believe that Mrs Obama ever relinquished her US citizenship. Even if she did, there would be no reason to believe that her son had ever relinquished his.
3. Ergo . . . as usual Sven’s comments are baseless and pointless which is consistent with offer chronic sufferers of birtheritis. Nervous spasms, uncontrollable drooling and vocal outbursts of non-sequiturs are also common.
Obama was aged ten when he moved back to Hawaii. The State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual indicates:
“CA/OCS/ACS will not approve a Certificate of Loss of U.S. Nationality (CLN) for a minor without the concurrence of CA/OCS/PRI, and appropriate consultation with L/CA”
A paper trail as thick as a book we can’t see because there is nothing there … hmmmmm.
The thick paper trail to which you refer only results in cases where there is an attempt by a minor to renounce his citizenship. You need some basis for believing that there was such an attempt before you can assume that a paper trail of this sort exists.
Even if Mrs Obama had relinquished her citizenship at some point, then it would have been virtually impossible for her to get her son to relinquish his citizenship. Her attempts in relation to her son would be in her son’s file. In a hypothetical situation in which she tried to have her son’s citizenship relinquished, she would have almost certainly been told to have her son come back when he was old enough to know what he was doing and make his own decisions. By the time he was old enough, he had moved back to the USA.
nor have we seen the multitude of sven’s kgb paper work from the magical talking unicorn……. hmmmmmm.
It’s pointless FUD and really pathetic. Many birthers cling to made up b.s. because it’s all they’ve got. Desperate clods.
The State Dept would not issue a CLN to a custodial parent without issuing a CLN to the child in custody where the host country is not a party to the UN Adoption Treaty is because the child is subject to deportation. The US could suffer an international embarrassment if a third world dictator deported a US citizen child and prevented the custodial parent from exiting the country.
The issuance of a CLN is discretionary. We know Stanley Ann was issued a CLN because she worked as a contractor for USAID. If she were a US citizen, then USAID would have hired her as an employee and I wouldn’t have to endure a bunch of USAID sellouts making disparaging comments on the net and trying to muddy the waters.
Being married to an Indonesian Army Officer (oops, I mean an Indonesian Army “geologist”), Stanley Ann had access to valuable information. If Stanley Ann were a US Citizen and employee of USAID, she would have been allowed to retire with full pension and medical benefits after she was diagnosed with serious medical issues. She wouldn’t have to spend her final days negotiating with insurance companies. The commies at USAID have excellent health insurance.
That makes the 18 months delay even more suspicious – how difficult is it to obtain this information?
I don’t see any logical reason for such a behavior. It is a shame that people in government are getting paid while not doing their job.
Think about grandma registering birth. Now we can assume a leisurely pace of 20 knots and make the trip in 20 days.
This theory would be crushed if Obama could produce a long form birth certificate indicating Kapiolani as his birthplace. The reluctance to relese such a trivial document (for a US born person) gives more credibility to alternative scenarios (as the one I described). The alternative scenario fits the behavior of: Obama campaign, Hawaii DoH, Tim Adams, James Orengo (minister in Kenyan government), Peter Ogego (Kenyan ambassador in USA),…
What is your basis for stating that there is such a policy or practice? The State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual clearly indicates that the tests required for loss of nationality, and therefore the issuance of a CLN, will not be met where there is a young child who is too young to make up their own mind and fully appreciate what they are doing.
Additionally, in what circumstances would issuance of a CLN prevent deportation? If a US citizen is entitled to a visa to reside in the host country, a CLN would be irrelevant. If the US citizen is in the country illegally, loss of US nationality would not eliminate the possibility of deportation in a non-citizen capacity.
A third world dictator who had the power to decide who is and is not a citizen could force his country’s citizenship on anyone he wanted and strip anyone of citizenship of his country. As, I have noted before, loss of US nationality does not prevent deportation in a non-citizen capacity. For this reason, issuing a CLN would not prevent the scenario that you envision.
Actually, it is not legal to issue one unless the statutory requirements for loss of US nationality are met.
Being a USAID employee requires being a US citizen but either a US citizen or a foreign national may be a contractor, correct? Therefore, being a USAID employee indicates being a US citizen, whereas being a USAID contractor does not indicate nationality.
You presuppose that someone would only become a contractor for USAID if they wished to be an employee but happened to be ineligible based on nationality. However, there are various people who work as contractors rather than employees for a variety of reasons. If you looked up the organisations for which she did consulting work, you find that she actually worked with multiple organisations, including the World Bank and Ford Foundation. This suggests that she liked the freedom to work for multiple organisations. It also suggests that you are wrong in assuming that someone would only work as a consultant if they were ineligible due to nationality; why did she not get a job as a permanent employee with the Ford Foundation or World Bank, organisations that can hire people of any nationality?
On what basis do you claim that Lolo Soetoro was an Indonesian Army Officer?
It’s a shame that she did not envision in the course of her career that she would get ovarian cancer in her fifties. Had she known, she probably would have planned to get a permanent position with great health benefits before getting her cancer diagnosis.
It’s a shame that every uninsured person in the US is not a US citizen, as we know that anyone without great health benefits must simply be a foreigner who is ineligible for federal employment.
Seven Obama’s lies in under 2 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCeSvdBvBfE&feature=related
I refer you to my comment of 24 July 2010 at 8:26 am.
Also, do you have an example of the Hawaii Department of Health issuing birth certificates today in the form of certified photocopies? Can you point to a form in use today to order one?
i’m thinking about it.
at 20 knots ( 23mph ) it would take over 27 days ( including a one day lay-over per port ) following passenger ship routes between kenya and hawaii. so you contend that the state of hawaii registered a birth of a child on august 8, 1961 that couldn’t have been physically there ( nor his parents ) till august 31, 1961 ???
How do you know what rules were in effect for registering unattended birth in 1961 to categorically claim that grandmother could not have done it?
If Obama can sign orders to send 30,000 additional troops to war, he can simply ask the DoH and they will release the original documnet in their archive. If the official story were true, the document should look like Nordyke birth certificates.
I think that Obama cannot even obtain the COLB from DoH that would be similar to what was posted on the web. I suspect that the word “Amended” would be printed on it.
i’m still thinking about it.
since hawaii’s laws in this matter aren’t much different from any other state in the US i should be able to say that my brother and his girlfriend had a baby last saturday and get a birth certificate by this tuesday…….. correct ?
I know because I have a copy of the law (from 1959), which has been posted here several times. The law requires the parents to file the certificate in the case of an unattended birth. The only situation where the grandmother could file was if the parents were “unable” to file. This is what we call in the trade a “fact” as distinct from speculation or rumor.
What makes you think that a baby had to be presented to the DoH clerk before a birth could be registered? Hawaii even had a law on books that allowed late birth registration (up to a year after the actual birth).
Unless we see the original birth certificate confirming the official birth story, the unattended birth registered by a grandmother cannot be excluded as a possible scenario.
You just confirmed that there was a provision in the law allowing a grandmother to file the birth registration.
My speculation is based on the observation of Obama’s behavior: There would be no need to hide the original birth certificate if the official story were true. In that case we would not have heard from Kenyan government officials about Obama being born in Kenya.
It is a vexing problem, and normally, such a passport information request would be resolved more quickly. One may call the delay suspicious, but one can only guess at the real reason. My personal pet theory is that results are entangled with the Allen and Strunk lawsuits.
Obama’s maternal grandmother could not have registered Barack Obama’s birth. The birth was registered at the hospital (Kapi’olani Medical Center according to the Governor of Hawaii Linda Lingle). The reason that the birth was registered with the state on August 8th is because Obama was born at 7:24 pm on August 4th which was a Friday Night. All births from Friday, Saturday and Sunday were sent to the “Health Bureau” (as it was called in 1961) and the bureaucrats didn’t get to the baby Obama Certification until Tuesday, August 8th.
The Honolulu Sunday Advertiser newspaper for Sunday, August 13, 1961 lists a son born on August 4th to Mr.and Mrs. Barack Obama. That section of the Sunday Advertiser is the “Health Bureau Statistics” section.
Since birth data goes from the hospital to the Health Bureau, it is highly unlikely that a birth was registered without an actual infant being in the hospital.
When Governor Lingle mentioned Kapiolani as the birth hospital, she misspoke. When she sent the Director of Health and the Registrar of Records (Dr. Fukino and Dr. Onaka) to check on the Obama birth record and report back, Dr.Fukino did not name the hospital in her press release but it is obvious that Dr. Fukino DID mention Kapiolani in her report back to the Governor and a year and a half later, that information was mentioned by Governor Lingle in a radio interview.
How so? He’s already produced the official state certification showing birth in Honolulu, which obviously isn’t in Kenya. If you don’t believe “Honolulu” — why would you believe “Kapiolani”?
You seem to take refuge in this grandma-registration theory, but no relative could have ever registered a birth without an actual baby to present for examination. The procedure followed for out-of-hospital births is that a doctor examines the newborn, and the parents (or other relatives when parents are unavailable) provides the data. The medical exam from the doctor would provide documentation of the infant’s age.
Yes, I was looking at the version of HRS §338-6 in force today. Dr C indicates that the version in force in 1961 would have required the registrar to investigate and complete the forms themselves when a birth was unattended and no parent was available. I will let Dr C explain his source of the old statute. Needless to say, a registrar would be rather unlikely to accept and enter facts of birth for a child that cannot be shown to exist. If you can produce evidence that Hawaiian registrars were happy to register the births of apparently fictitious people, then I’d like to see it.
Obama can sign executive orders relating the troop movements because he is head of the executive branch of the federal government. Registration of births that occur in the US, and issuance of certifications of those records, is the job of the state governments.
I believe that the Nordyke twins’ certificates were produced from records kept on microfilm. Are you stating that the Hawaii Department of Health still issues records from microfilm? As I understand it they kept all paper records when they put birth records into a database, but I haven’t heard anything about whether they have retained the microfilm that they previously used to produce routine birth certificates in the 1960s. If the Hawaii Department of Health produced a certified photocopy today from a photocopier, then the document would look a bit different.
My understanding is that all documents issued today in response to applications made on this form are computer generated “short forms”. (Such “short forms” are, under HRS §338-13(c), just as valid as a certified photocopy would be.) Thus, any extraordinary accommodation for Obama would have to be outside all procedures in place today.
The certificate that was inspected by Factcheck would have been labelled as altered if Obama’s birth record had been amended (HRS §338-16(a)).
Hundred’s of examples of nc’s “misstatements” about the President with the birther drivel debunked and shredded for illogic and inanity over many, many months:
http://washingtonindependent.com
Search under “birther.”
Many of them are identical to the baseless birther conspiracy drivel repeated ad nauseam on this site.
I apologise for an error in my last comment. In the penultimate paragraph, I meant to link to this form.
yep. as far as i know same/similar as all the other states.
the birth registration wasn’t late though. i can’t imagine ANY state registering a child that doesn’t exist ( nor the parents ).
Obama’s original, long form, vault copy birth certificate can be released without Obama’s permission under Hawaii statutes by subpoena The exact wording of the statute is released to: “a person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.”(HRS 338-18(b)(9)
After his experience with the reaction to his release of a photoshopped copy of his COLB, it is probably best that Obama himself have nothing to do with the release of any birth document.
IT CAN BE SUBPOENAED.
HRS §338-13(c) provides that, “Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health.”
Thus, any such technology may be used to produce a birth certificate, provided that it complies with the department’s regulations.
Do the regulations currently state that birth certificates must be issued in the form of a computer printout from the department’s database? Do they prevent photocopies of the original from being issued in the event that an employee from the department wanted to indulge a request from a person for a certified photocopy of their original record?
I suppose this is a question that could only be answered by someone with pretty specific knowledge about Hawaii regulations.
You clearly haven’t been paying attention.
How incredibly sad. Hit and run troll?
just curious, joey. do you regularly work with Adobe PhotoShop ???
The Certification of Live Birth lists a birth time: 7:24 pm, a birth date: August 4, 1961, and a birth place: City of Honolulu, County of Honolulu, Island of Oahu, State of Hawaii.
There is no information on a long form that is additionally constitutionally relevant to being an Article 2 Section 1 Natural Born Citizen. The Constitution does not require birth in a hospital or delivery by a physician in order to qualify.
While “birthers” may be curious as to what is on Obama’s original birth certificate, curiosity in order to try to make political hay out of non-relevant details is not going to fly in any court of law.
As a Reagan-appointed, conservative federal judge has said: “This is one of several such suits filed by Ms. Taitz in her quixotic attempt to prove that President Obama is not a natural born citizen as required by Constitution. See U.S. CONST. art. II, § 1. This Court is not willing to go tilting at windmills with her. ” –US Chief Federal District Court Judge for the District of Columbia Royce C. Lamberth
Not at all.
I should have said “its fairly obvious that the answer to that question is “not at all.”
The birthers seem to think that Hawaii has registrars happy to give birth certificates to people who may or may not exist. They also think that Obama can and should issue executive orders mandating changes to the format of their birth certificates.
So much for conservatives thinking that it’s best to leave things to the states.
Why are there so many clueless birthers who act like he/she suddenly has tremendous powers over logic, U.S. law and history and must prove to the world that his/her delusions trump reality?
[end rhetorical question]
They keeping crawling out from under a rock with bursts of dogmatic lunacy.
I mostly blame WND, Newsbusters, Stormfront and the other fright wing, libel machines.
And of course, Karl Rove.
I have used (and taught) Adobe® Photoshop® since the early 90s. And I know it’s not a verb but a registered trademark.
http://www.adobe.com/misc/trade.html#section-4
What are you talking about? I’ve been paying very close attention and I am vehemently ANTI-BIRTHER
The fact that no one in the birther cabal has even attempted a subpoena of Obama’s vault copy certificate is proof (to me) of the silliness of their arguments.
They don’t want to really resolve the issue, they just want to posture and whine.
Joey, just how would you go about creating an “order of a court of competent jurisdiction”? I’m sure the birther community is on tender hooks waiting for this answer.
The Republican Attorney
A wonderful question!
Any prosecuting attorney in the entire United States can open a Grand Jury investigation of Obama for forgery or fraud in connection with his birth documents. That investigation does not have to charge Obama with any crime, Grand Juries can investigate ANYTHING that the prosecutor damn well pleases (District Attorneys, State Attorney Generals, and US Attorneys/the Office of the Attorney General).Once a grand jury investigation in convened, the prosecutor can go to his/her favorite judge and seek a subpoena for Obama’s birth records. If the state of Hawaii determines that the subpoena is valid and was issued by a legitimate judge, they release the document.
The perfect person to have undertaken this would have been Mark L. Bennett, the Republican Attorney General of Hawaii.
I would remind the birther community that the resignation of Richard M.Nixon and the impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton both originated with Grand Jury investigations into Watergate and Whitewater.
No I don’t, never used it but I realize what you’re getting at.
“Google the term “photoshopped” and take a gander at the 4,640,000 results.
So why do you think that hasn’t happened? Or do you think it has?
or google the term ” photographed ” and you’ll get a gander at over 22 million results.
what’s the point you’re trying to make ?
It’s important to maintain a distinction between statute and regulation. The statute (that you cite) basically gives the director of health say as to what forms are issued and what forms are not.
Yes, I agree. The director has to issue regulations indicating what forms can and cannot be used. My question is whether the existing regulations are so specific as to prevent any employee who receives a letter from Obama (or anyone else born in the state) today requesting a certified photocopy from issuing one without a specific authorisation from Dr Fukimo.
There is such a thing as fraud. http://www.justice.gov/usao/nj/press/files/ande1028_r.htm
A parent could claim that the other parent took the child and fled the jurisdiction. However, no parent and no child begs the case of who and why such a registration was happening. Such things would raise red flags and the registrar would reasonably ask for some documentation.
Of course, in a birther’s mind, anything that is remotely possible must be presumed the case until Obama proves otherwise.
In all seriousness, I take it that a registration as unusual as the scenario that birthers imagine would involve investigation that would continue for more than four days after the alleged birth. You indicated previously that the registrar would be the one filling in the form where no parent was available, so I take it that a registrar in such a scenario would take many days to investigate and only then file a birth report.
Then again, Hawaii was a new state. So everyone must have been a crook.
yep. thanks for bringing it up doc.
so….. you want a “manchurian candidate” to progress your muslim marxist socialistic agenda to destroy the united states in 50 years but are having trouble finding the right someone in the continental US. what to do, what to do.
Ignorance is not a valid excuse.
O.K., then I apologize. Your tactic and approach was a little weird.
And Hawaii has stated recently that there is no such thing as a long form anymore.
Everything on the COLB, the certified copy and prima facie evidence valid in any court, is also the exact same information in vital records.
What do you mean by photoshopped (sic) copy of his COLB? I’ve never seen any valid proof of that.
The grandmother would not have the right to do that, nc1. Only the Parent would be able to, unless the Parent is not phyically able to. Travelling is not reason enough for being physically unable to register the birth, and the rules say that the birth only has to be registered usually within 30 days.
So, why would Obama’s birth be registered within 4 days by the grandmother when the mother herself could still legally register the birth later?
Your guano doesn’t fly, nc1.
My understanding is that the Hudson County fraud involved placement of forged long-form certificates in the county’s records for those paying a cash bribe. These certificates made it appear as though those paying the bribes had births registered many years previously.
For this reason, demanding a long form is not a protection against fraud where the falsification of records is done inside the vital records office. As birthers routinely allege that Dr Fukimo et al. are committing a massive fraud, it is abundantly clear that any long form would be assumed to be a fraud.
Conspiracy theorists are never content to let matters rest when evidence shows their hypotheses wrong. They instead insist that all sources of that evidence are part of the conspiracy. I would expect Taitz to ultimate insist upon personal inspection of the archives of the Hawaii Department of Health just as she has demanded access to the Supreme Court’s records of the handling of her stay application.
Gov. Lingle told a lie in a radio interview when she said that they issued a press-release about Obama being born in the Kapiolani Hospital. There is no such press-release.
Your timeline does not make sense. Nordyke twins were born day later than Obama. If your scenario were true their birth certificates would have been processed on the same day as Obama’s. We know that this is not the case. Their certificates were signed by the attending physician on August 11 and processed by the DoH on the same day. Since Obama’s birth certificate has higher registartion number than those for Nordyke twins, you need to come up with better theory on why Obama’s certificate bears date August 8 yet the certificate number corresponds to August 11 (at best).
I could use this timeline to speculate that Obama was not born in the Kapiolani because the DoH took three days to process his registration – this could indicate a different process reserved for unattended birth registrations.
Publicly available information does not provide a definitive answer to the question whether Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital or not.
The recent news about Puerto Rico’s new birth certificate law are quite interesting.
Puerto Rico’s law is a great example of the fact that, as mentioned in a report to which Dr C previouslu linked, most birth certificate fraud does not involve creating a false birth record. Rather, most fraud involves use of real birth certificates by fraudsters. The certificate itself or the information on it can be used to act in the name of that person.
The Puerto Rican problem largely involved some individuals buying the certificates of others so that they could claim that they were that named person who was born on a given date in Puerto Rico with US citizenship. One major part of the problem was that birth certificates were presented too freely in Puerto Rico and were, therefore, easy to intercept. People in possession of another person’s birth certificate were able to steal the person’s identity (or in the case of Luis Rosario’s certificate, buy the identity).
Taitz seemed to want to take her hypothesis down the identity theft track when she started alleging use of others’ Social Security numbers. However, the supposedly fraudulent use of an SSN is one issued to a Barack Hussein Obama who is not listed as dead despite being supposedly 120 years old. (The age appears to be an error made in a given computer entry made for Obama at some point in his life, as other entries show the person in question to have been born in August 1961.)
The problem for the birther movement in trying to steer their hypothesis toward identity theft is that the two approaches are mutually exclusive. One approach is to say that there are no valid birth records for a Barack Obama. The other is to say that Barack Obama had a perfectly good birth record to sell to someone wanting to gain the benefits of citizenship by acting in his name.
Just because some anonymous screen name on the internet says that the Governor of Hawaii was lying doesn’ t make it so. In 71 attempts no court has invalidated the information that Dr. Fukino, Dr. Onaka, Governor Lingle and Attorney General Bennett have all verified.
There is no rule that says that Certifications of Birth have to be registered in any particular order. It can simply be a matter of whose desk Obama birth data ended up on versus whose desk Nordyke Twins birth data ended up on. Do you really believe that state government bureaucrats work on Friday evenings, Saturdays and Sundays? Are you really that deluded?
All any judge wants to know is if there is a state issued document verifying birth in that state. The answer from the state of Hawaii is “yes there is:” birth at 7:24 pm on Friday, August 4, 1961 in Honolulu.
Yes, I’m aware of the fact that the birthers’ favorite term “long form” hasn’t existed since the state went paperless in 2001 and that the so-called COLB is now the Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth and that it is an abbreviated computerized print out of birth data.
What I meant by “photoshopped” copy is any of the images of Obama’s COLB that has been posted to an internet site including the Fight the Smears image, the Factcheck.org image, the Politifact image, and/or the DailyKoz image
No problem.
And forensic analysis. Don’t forget about the forensic analysis.
Its none of your business whether Obama was born at Kapiolani Hospital or not. If he was born on a beach on the North Shore of Oahu and delivered by a mid-wife, he’d still be born in Hawaii. If you don’t like the lack of transparency about the exact location of his birth, vote against him in 2012.
The ONLY constitutionally relevant information that is recorded on a birth record is place of birth in one of the 50 states and date of birth, is the person at least 35 years of age.
You can’t determine the other Article 2 Section 1 requirement (14 years residence in the US) from a birth record.
The point I was trying to make is that I used the term “photoshopped” as a colloquial expression. If my use of the term bothers you or offends you , I am happy to exclude it from my vocabularly while posting here.
I think that the delay is a reasonable expectation, particularly when the birth was on a Friday night and the registration was the next Tuesday.
Hawaii was a new state, but it was a US Territory long before and the regulations they were operating under basically came from the 1950’s.
Until you learn the difference between a lie and a mistake, no one will take you seriously. It’s absurd to claim that someone would intentionally lie about something in the public record.
It hasn’t happened and I doubt that it ever will happen.
I think that hasn’t happened because birthers are not interested in the least in resolving this issue. They just want their fantasy kept alive to try to push their larger political agenda. Oh, I’m sure that there are some birthers who really want a court to order Obama’s birth certificate released, but the attorneys like Taitz, Apuzzo, Berg and Donofrio are well aware that a Grand Jury investigation would explode their gravy train so they won’t go anywhere near a real, quick and thorough solution to the issue.
Obama refusing to release his long form at a cost of twelve dollars is more politically viable than getting a right wing prosecutor to subpoena the document and risking that it says exactly what any intelligent person already knows that it says.
On the other hand, Obama doesn’t want the birthers to go away either. The Harvard Law School grad, Senior Lecturer in Constitutional Law/Chicago’s biggest law firm part of Obama must be enjoying the hell out of being 71 and O in eligibility lawsuits.
Additionally, there is an electoral constituency group out there who very well may hold the key to Obama’s reelection in 2012. That constituency group gave him 66% of their support in 2008 and he would like a larger share in 2012. That constituency group, like Obama constantly have their citizenship and allegiance questioned. And, hint, hint, they often speak Spanish. The birther issue works for Obama with them Why the very state that produced the candidate who got the other 33% of their vote is asking members of this constituency group to verify their status any time they encounter a police officer.
Yes, a four-day delay prior to registration is short and reasonable for a routine birth. However, if this were an exceptional case where a grandmother was telling the registrar that the mother gave birth at home and then absconded with the father and child (the thought of which is making me laugh), then I would not expect the registrar to complete the paperwork the second working day following the alleged birth. Rather, I would expect the registrar to want to try and locate the parents and child first.
My comment about Hawaii being a new state was a sarcastic reference to the claims by some commenters that Hawaii’s status as a new state would have created a likelihood of fraud of the sort committed by a handful of midwives in California and Texas.
Here Here, well said!
Linda Lingle wants to run for the US Senate when either of the aging Democratic Senators from Hawaii retires. It makes absolutely no political sense whatsoever for her to carry political water for a Democrat like Obama.
What does make sense is that Fukino and Onaka mentioned to her that Obama’s birth record says Kapiolani and a year later she mentioned that without remembering that Kapiolani was not named on the press releases that went out confirming Obama’s birth in Hawaii.
Oh, sometimes it is.
I’m willing to bet that there are many things in life that you are ignorant about and that you would ask to be excused for not knowing about. Unless of course you’re a perfect and all-knowing human being which is always a possibility, I suppose.
There is no “haphazardness” in Germany and Switzerland (and Italy) not stamping your passport when you got there (I guess by car or train) from France. All these countries are and were part of the Schengen area, and passport checks on the borders that you mentioned all disappeared between 1990 and 1999. US visitors to the Schengen area would only have an entry stamp from the Schengen country they first visited, and possibly also an exit one from the country they flew back from.
Passport stamping between the Schengen area on the one hand and non-Schengen EU members is haphazard however. When we visited Cyprus recently, our EU Schengen passports were checked but not stamped. Switzerland was a bit odd too. At the time you mention, your passport would probably have been stamped if you had flown into Switzerland from another
Schengen country.
Since some Schengen countries are not part of the EU, there are a few borders where your luggage will be checked, but not your passport (I guess so long as you do not carry contraband). Oh, and Americans visiting Europe for more than 90 days, and therefore carrying a Schengen visa, should be careful about visiting Andorra, since technically it is not part of Schengen at all, meaning you need a multiple-entry Schengen visa in order to “escape” from that little mountain state.
What difference does it make? Whether the birth was in a hospital or unattended, the fact remains that there is no credible evidence that Obama was born anywhere but Hawaii. As others have pointed out, it doesn’t matter if he was born in a hospital or on the beach at Waikiki.
I’ll make the same challenge to you that I have made to other birthers. Show me one documented example of a COLB issued to a person which states that he/she was born in Hawaii even though that person was not born in Hawaii. The birthers claim that it is easy for a foreign-born person to obtain such a Hawaii COLB, but no one has been able to produce one. Show me one, along with proof that the person was born elsewhere, and I will believe that it is possible. Sun Yat-Sen doesn’t count.
Actually, I flew into Frankfurt from Atlanta, then by car to Switzerland and France. I showed my passport at the airport in Frankfurt, but it wasn’t stamped. I believe that I showed my passport at the Swiss border (near Zurich), but once again it wasn’t stamped. And of course we didn’t even have to stop at the Switzerland/France border.
In 1999 I flew from Atlanta to Rome, and at the Rome airport I didn’t have to go through either immigration or customs. We went directly to baggage claim and then took the train into the city.
The point, of course, is that my passport gives only a partial history of my international travels. It was stamped in London, Dublin, Lisbon, Sydney, Melbourne and Auckland. Australia is the only country I visited which stamped my passport on departure.
I recently had to get another copy of my birth certificate because I had lost mine during a move. I looked it over last week and noticed that even though I was born on December 17th my certificate wasn’t filed until around the 2nd week of January. According to your timeline I must not have been born in California and have a fraudulent certificate.
I am a bit surprised that Rickey did not encounter controls at the Swiss border. Switzerland was not a party to the Schengen Agreement in 2002. However, I don’t know what other, less formal arrangements were in place then.
A passport issued by an EEA member state or Switzerland will never be stamped on entry to another EEA member state or Switzerland. A passport stamp would imply that leave to enter is given, whereas the free movement directive and associated agreements with EFTA states give EEA and Swiss citizens citizens a right of entry. Additionally, national ID cards issued by EEA member states and Switzerland are capable of being used in lieu of passports throughout the EEA or Switzerland.
I should qualify what I have said above by noting that even though the entire island of Cyprus is theoretically part of the Republic of Cyprus and the EU, the practical reality of the Northern Cypriot state is such that entering Northern Cyprus will always be different.
As you note, however, there are Schengen-external borders where Europeans will have their passports or ID cards inspected, but not stamped. Those with non-European passports will get stamps at such borders. My favourite is boarding the Eurostar, where someone with a non-European passport can get a UK entry stamp showing entry to the UK in Paris.
Americans who expect to rely on a passport stamp to prove entry to the UK or Ireland should also note that the UK and Ireland have a Schengen-like arrangement between themselves called the Common Travel Area. I got caught out by this when the date of my initial entry to the UK became relevant in an immigration application this year. As I had a connection in Dublin, I had no UK stamp as evidence. Thankfully, I still had my boarding passes.
It is obvious that my point went above your head. I never claimed anything about DoH working on weekends – you are arguing with yourself.
Re-read my previous post and think about it. Compare dates and registration numbers on Obama vs. Nordyke certificates then come back and explain how you can prove that Obama was born in the Kapiolani based on the available facts.
You also assume that the COLB image posted on the web is the image of a document issued by the DoH. Yet we have no such confirmation. We only have Obama’s claim that such document was obtained. Not much different from the letter sent by him to the Kapiolani proclaiming that he was born there.
The following should be a required reading before discussing the COLB image:
http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Politics/12956.htm
I was born in Maine on February 24, but the lazy State of Maine didn’t register my birth until March 17.
FYI, Maine actually doesn’t have a computerized database for birth records. It cost $60 to get a birth certificate from the State because they have to send someone to dig out the paper document. My father recently got his from the records of the town where he was born, for $20. We’re so backward up here.
The Fight the Smears / Daily Kos image was a scan. Someone laid the paper on a flatbed scanner, pushed the “scan” button, and got an image processed through whatever image processing software they were using. (I think probably Photoshop — but i don’t remember). Usually when people refer to an image being “photoshopped” they mean some sort of editing or manipulation was done – and that was done with the Fight the Smears /Daily Kos image to black out the certificate number.
The series of 9 images posted on FactCheck are digital photographs of the paper certificate. There is no evidence of any sort of editing or manipulation, though Photoshop or a similar program were probably used at some point to reduce resolution for internet display.
It is perfectly true that on entry the Schengen officials only need to do a thorough identity check and do not have to stamp the passport – but NOW they will often stamp the passport when it has a Schengen visa in it, to make travel to other Schengen countries easier.
That a US passport without visa (limiting the stay to 90 days) is not usually stamped on entry into Schengen, is not really a problem, since precisely because of Schengen hotels within Schengen are supposed to record the details of any foreigners (yes, like in the film “The Day of the Jackal”, but using computers now instead of gendarmes on motor cycles) meaning they have other ways than the entry stamp to establish that you overstaid your welcome – I guess that is why people who get their visa for being invited by an inhabitant of Schengen always have their passport stamped on entry. Oh, and passenger carriers who take passengers in or over the Schengen area are obliged to check the passports as well NOW. You could call it the privatization of border control.
As for the Italians in 1999? Well, they are Italians I suppose. Perhaps they assumed anyone on that plane was American anyway. Or that the crew of the plane could be trusted to have checked. And it was too hot or too cold where you were walking.
Stamping on exit would only be necessary in the case of a multiple entry visa – or when the traveller indeed overstaid, in which case the infraction would also be noted in the passport with the standard penalty for that infraction (like “not eligible to visit the Schengen area for a year”).
But your point is correct. A passport will never give the full picture of where you have been in your life. Think of that poor European travelling salesman arriving in New York with two stamps in his passport proving he visited Cuba before, but nothing to prove he also visited the USA … twenty times before.
(The reason why I capitalized NOW a few times: those are regulations that were introduced after 1985 and are slowly being implemented, particularly in countries that joined only recently)
Appropriate documentation needs to be provided to register an unattended birth — so if grandma had shown up at the DOH in 1961, she would have needed to have the requisite documentation in hand. That documentation would have been detailed in administrative regulations extant at the time.
I’ve got no way of finding those regs via the internet with my current resources — but I found a booklet for California that is useful for understanding the process. See: http://www.cdph.ca.gov/certlic/birthdeathmar/Documents/Out-of-Hospital%20Birth%20Package.pdf
The California booklet directs parents to make an appointment with the local health department and bring evidence to prove:
1. Identity of the parent(s)
2. Pregnancy of the mother
3. Baby was born alive
4. Birth occurred in California
5. Identity of the witness
The specific type of evidence is detailed at pages 8-11 — for item #3, they require that the baby be brought to the appointment. No baby = no registration.
It’s a pretty good bet that other states, including Hawaii, have substantially similar requirements.
The bottom line is that in these circumstances, you can’t just phone it in or submit a form.
Here’s a blog post that summarizes evidence requirements for home birth registrations in numerous states (but not including Hawaii) ==>
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=10467690&postcount=78
Again, the point is that this is what is typically required, and there’s no reason to assume that Hawaii deviated from the norm either in 1961 or now.
There is no connection between your birth certificate and the issue being discussed.
I did not use Obama’s birth registration timeline exclusively. I compared it with the reference (one for Nordyke twins) and observed that Obama’s birth registration was processed differently.
Do you REALLY think that a three digit difference in birth certificate registration numbers means something significant? Are you folks THAT desperate to win a minor debating point?
I already provided an explanation: birth data might not have been registered in precise chronological order by birth and different clerks working at different rates might have been responsible for registering the Nordyke Twins and The Obama infant.
I’m absolutely delighted however to see that birthers such as yourself are acknowledging that there is indeed a long form birth certificate with a registration number of 151-61-10641 on file for Barack Hussein Obama.
The state of Hawaii, through its Director of Health issued two different confirmation statements of Obama’s birth records. The first statement was issued on October 31, 2008 and the second was issued on July 27, 2009. That second statement said: “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health VERIFYING Barack Hussein Obama was BORN IN HAWAII and is a NATURAL BORN AMERICAN CITIZEN. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October, 2008 over eight months ago.”(Capitals, mine)
http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf
Now I fully realize thet Dr. Fukino’s verification statement is not good enough for you but I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that it is good enough for ANY court in ANY jurisdiction in the United States of America that might look at this issue and it is/will be/has been exhibit number 2 (after a copy of the actual COLB) in defense submissions in legal briefs in Obama eligibility lawsuits.
Let the parsing of Dr. Fukino’s words begin…
It doesn’t matter, because the Department of Health has confirmed that they have the original records of Obama’s birth on file, here: http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html
IF they have the original documents on file, as stated, then Obama clearly has the ability to obtain a COLB (certified abstract) — so there are 2 possibilities:
1. Obama posted a true and correct copy of a COLB he obtained through regular procedures in Hawaii; or
2. Obama created and posted a fake version, despite the fact that he could easily obtain the original — and despite huge political risks entailed when it was clearly foreseeable that the posted document would be distributed to Hawaii authorities for confirmation.
#2 is implausible under the circumstances. If a person has the ability to obtain a genuine document, why would they bother to produce a fake?
It is your assumption that Obama could easily obtain the legitimate COLB from the DoH. The DoH could have confirmed it long time ago when they were asked whether such document had been issued by their office on June 6, 2007. They refused to do so.
I think that his birth certificate was Amended – and that was the reason why it could not be released to the public without causing additional troubles for Obama.
They obviously have some kind of birth registration on file – the question is what did Dr. Fukino use as a source for her press-release?
If the official birthplace story were true, Obama had no reasons to hide the original birth certificate after the presidential elections. His behavior makes sense only if he cannot prove that the official birthplace story is true.
You still do not understand my point. Obama’s certification number was NOT issued on August 8, 1961 (when his certificate was filed in the DoH office) but on August 11.
A different procedure was used when compared to the Nordyke certificates. Their certificates were filed and numbers assigned on the SAME date (August 11).
Not tell me how does this scenatrio PROVES that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital.
I only provided an alternative scenario (unattended birth registration) that cannot be dismissed using the timeline of birth registrations and certification numbers.
I am being charitable here by assuming that the registration number 10641 indeed belongs to Obama. The DoH refused to provide the index data when the request included this registration number. I have no logical explanation for this refusal. It is a trivial request yet they did not want to provide the data!?
How do we know that Obama’s birth records were not amended between October 2008 and July 2009? In the first Fukino’s press-release there was no mentioning of Hawaii as his birthplace.
Her second press release does not exclude the possibility of a fraudulent unattended birth registration. Perhaps that is the reason why she does not want to provide any answers to follow up questions.
The document itself is a self-authenitcating document. No further authentication of the document is needed, and it would be provided as the court of law. It can be brought into any court in the land, and serves as prima facie evidence of the facts of birth, one of which is the “city of birth”.
It’s like saying, “Well, the prosecution proved that the bullet came from the barrel of the gun. But they didn’t prove that the bullet was ever held in the clip of the gun.”
Or, it’s like saying, “There’s a bunch of windows on a building, all closed. There is no roof access. There is a window that is broken. But the police never proved that the guy was thrown out of that window!”
It’s an idiotic argument, and will never hold up in a court of law. If Hawaii, for some reason, came to your desires, then you’d be asking for confirmation of the confirmation of the confirmation…
You just do not like Obama. You work from the premise that Obama is ineligible, and then try to fit your argument around that premise. Instead, actually work from what Obama has actually shown.
And don’t come back to me with the guano about “He’s only shown a picture”. Do you honestly expect Obama to spend a billion dollars to send every voter a copy of his birth certificate?
If Obama was white, the whole nonsensical BC argument wouldn’t exist. nc1 can’t stand the idea that a n*** might be president, so obviously there’s got to be a fraud somewhere. That’s his reasoning.
Submitted for your consideration:
Brad deLong — a very serious economist — on how the Republican Party is actually destroying America:
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/07/martin-wolf-makes-the-case-that-americas-future-depends-on-the-destruction-of-the-republican-party.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BradDelongsSemi-dailyJournal+%28Brad+DeLong%27s+Semi-Daily+Journal%29
I started from a standpoint of a skeptic who first saw contradictory reports about Obama’s birth. Even a minister in the Kenyan government talked about it in their parliament. Then I look at the first image of COLB published on the web. It is the only image of a Hawaii COLB that does not have the state seal clearly visible by a naked eye.
I am yet to see a Hawaii COLB (other than Obama’s) where only one fold line is visible.
It took Obama two months to provide a better version (I guess they used comments about the first one as a guideline).
The DoH refuses to release a trivial information.
All along there has been a trivial solution to the whole debate about his birthplace: publish the original birth certificate. Obama promised to change the tone in Washington DC, end of partisanship, no more business as usual, he promised transparent government. That should include transparency when it comes to the eligibility for office. Instead we got a behavior totally opposite from what was promised.
I am not buying the official birthplace story.
If Obama supporters had no doubts about his claim – you would have asked for the release of the original birth certificate.
Normally, I don’t reply to drivel. In this case, I feel compelled.
Israel Insider proves that we are catching up with the rest of the world in producing right wing crackpots. I might add that crowd is ruining Israel.
Anyone who listens to that bunch of shondes, deserves what he gets.
Here’s something for you to stew on: Obama is absolutely correct in ignoring Denialists. Arizona’s new law can only help him in ’12. And if he released what you are screeching about, there would be a whole new slew of blogs “proving” that is a forgery, too.
I can’t wait for Booker to run in ’16. Fasten your seatbelt.
Birth Certificates are self-authenticating documents in a Court of Law. Obama’s birth certtificate has the additional authentification of the Director of Health, the Registrar of Records, the Governor and the Attorney General (who approved both of Dr. Fukino’s press releases).
Dr. Fukino doesn’t answer follow-up questions because she is bound by federal and state confidentiality of records statutes.
Any district attorney, state attorney general, or US Attorney could convene a Grand Jury investigation of Obama’s eligibility. A Grand Jury could subpoena Obama’s records without needing his permission and compel Hawaii officials to testify under oath. Document authentification experts could be called to examine the documents for signs of tampering or forgery.
The fact that nobody has bothered to convene such a Grand Jury investigation for fraud, forgery and election fraud speaks volumes about the illegitimacy of the “birther” charade, a minor component of Obama Derangement Syndrome.
If you need to know about birth certificate certification numbers and birth hospitals or unattended birth registrations, find a prosecuting attorney who is willing to convene a Grand Jury investigation.
As I understand it, the certificate number was assigned at the very end of the birth registration process. At that point, certified copies of the registration were capable of being issued.
I don’t know exactly why Obama’s registration apparently reached the end of the process and was assigned a number less quickly than the Nordyke twins’ registration. I also don’t see how it is relevant. We have all encountered inconsistencies in the rate at which the same applications are processed. I have, for example, found that some of my UK immigration applications have been processed more rapidly or slowly than someone submitting a similar application at the same time.
There is no particular reason to believe that the Hawaii Department of Health considered it necessary to process all registrations in the same amount of time. Strict procedures to complete processing of items in the order in which they are received would involve a system to keep the documents in the same order throughout processing and ensure that no document gets processed ahead of one that reaches the office later.
Such a process would necessarily involve additional resources to check that the order of processing was not disrupted. An organisation would only bother having such a strict rule if the order mattered. In land registration, it is clearly necessary to deal with registrations in the order in which they are received; the order of registration of different interests in the same land can have substantial legal consequences. In the case of birth registration, there is no practical consequence if a person’s birth registration is processed ahead that of another whose paperwork arrived in the office slightly earlier.
There are some who suggest that Obama’s registration was processed more slowly because it was an unattended birth. However, even if we assume that Obama’s registration was unattended and attracted greater scrutiny leading to later completion of processing, this would not confirm the assertion that the birth registration was somehow suspect. Such greater scrutiny in the processing of an unattended birth would confirm that Hawaii required greater evidence for an unattended birth and that the Department of Health needed time to review it in detail. It would certainly not confirm that evidentiary requirements for an unattended birth were lax.
I don’t believe you.
You have never seen ‘contradictory reports’ because there are none) and you are not a skeptic because you are not asking honest questions or paying attention to honest answers).
There are no contradictory reports, only documented assertions on one side, and unmitigated falsehoods, frauds, forgeries, and con-artists on the other. There is not one shred of evidence that contradicts the documented, signed, and sealed (i.e. certified) assertion that the President was born in Hawai’i. None. Zero. Nada.
No honest skeptic can deny evidence and embrace nonsense, that is the exact opposite of scepticism. A skeptic is NOT a person who refuses to listen to rational argument and rejects evidence. A skeptic researches the appropriate evidence, discards bunkum, and embraces truth. Skeptics look for honest answers to honest questions.
You are doing none of these things. You repeat the same bunkum, over and over, even though every one of your birther assertions has been thoroughly discredited. You aren’t looking for answers of any kind, you are simply looking for dishonest questions that you can use as a wedge to spread Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. And it makes no difference to you whether a question is answered or not, you will just continue to pose the same fraudulent rubbish over and over and over as if it is a valid doubt or indeed ever had any relevancy what-so-ever.
That is not the behavior of a skeptic, that is the mark of the denier, or quite possibly, the professional propagandist. Or Con-artist.
Consider that the actual physical filing process was manual.A piece of paper got stuck in its archival location by hand – no computers in 1961. It is reasonable to imagine office procedures where the batch was alphabetized, whether by the hospital before delivery or by the registration office at receipt in order to aid the manual filing process and to help locate a specific document while it was in the workflow. Whose certificate would have been processed first in that case ‘Nordyke’ or ‘Obama?
If you had been skeptical about those first reports, you might not have fallen down the mental rabbit hole.
Hear, hear.
You missed my point.
Just to clarify, I did have to show my papers when crossing into Switzerland from Germany, although they did not stamp my passport. The open border was when I entered France from Switzerland. There was a building at the border, but it was closed and vehicles were entering France without having to stop. I didn’t notice if vehicles entering Switzerland at that crossing were being stopped.
Adobe® Photoshop® is a powerful image editing program. It is used for many legitimate reasons but birthers typically use “photoshopped” incorrectly and as a verb to mean the COLB was deliberately altered in order to deceive the public. There’s no credible evidence that anyone has done this. This nonsense was spread as FUD by WND and unqualified, previously anonymous, non-experts looking to smear the President and further the birther conspiracy. See Ron Polland aka Ron Polarik.
A scan of a certified document is just a scan so that itcan be formatted as a JPEG image and posted on the internet. It doesn’t necessarily mean Adobe® Photoshop® was used in the process nor does it imply it was altered.
New fiction by the Post and E-mail…rehasing the same lies and blaming journalists for Obama being elected….
“In October 2008, the Los Angeles Times refused to release video footage of a dinner held for Palestinian supporter Rashid al-Khalidi during which Obama allegedly had been “bashing Jews and Israel.” One well-known blogger states that al-Khalidi was “best friends with Bill Ayers.” In April 2008, The Los Angeles Times covered the al-Khalidi-Obama relationship here.
Several journalists condemned George Stephanopoulos of ABC News for asking Obama during a debate, “Do you think Reverend Wright loves America as much as you do?” According to The Daily Caller, journalists from Salon, The UK Guardian, The Politico, Time, and The Huffington Post all expressed outrage over “how Obama had been treated in the media, and in some cases plotted to fix the damage.”
Rev. Wright was Obama’s pastor at Trinity United Church for 20 years and gained notoriety during the 2008 presidential campaign by his anti-American rhetoric. However, The New York Times failed to report Wright’s incendiary remarks in a piece apparently intended to convince the reader of Obama’s Christian faith, while ABC News presented more balanced coverage. even when he stated that his faith was “Muslim” to George Stephanopoulos in an interview shortly before the election.
Journalists have become so slipshod in their reporting that at times, their sentences make no sense and they are unable to spell. Perhaps they are too eager to destroy anyone working to uncover Obama’s birthplace and other related information which could determine his eligibility to be president. “Journalist” Martin Wisckol of The Orange County Register injected his contempt for Dr. Orly Taitz when he reported her alleged request to verify the signature of Associate Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas when he made the statement that “an editor” commented to him, “She should ask for his birth certificate while she’s at it.”
Mr. Wisckol obviously did not contact Taitz regarding her motion. The Post & Email did, and Taitz told us that she not only questioned the signature of Justice Clarence Thomas but also appealed to Chief Justice John Roberts regarding the sanctions, something Taitz mentioned on her website but which the writer conveniently did not. Wisckol also apparently used the word “approval” instead of “denial,” which Taitz told us appeared on the Supreme Court docket eventually.
Taitz stated that if necessary, she would appeal to each Supreme Court justice in turn, “all nine of them if I have to.” Dr. Taitz also told us that last week, she had checked the Supreme Court website for a response from Associate Justice Clarence Thomas but found none as of Friday, July 16, but that on Saturday, she began to receive comments on her website that a denial had been posted, backdated to July 15. Taitz told The Post & Email that she thought it strange that a decision from anyone on the Supreme Court would be posted on a Saturday and questioned whether or not Thomas had actually reviewed her appeal.
Rather than find out the facts, the Orange County Register is too preoccupied with being sarcastic and producing stories such as “How to Predict an Earthquake with a Donut,” and “Five Things we’ll Miss the Most about Star Tours” while, Obama, Congress, the courts and government employees continue to dismantle our freedoms and way of life guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution by passing crippling banking restrictions with more government oversight and ability to interfere in private institutions, health care mandates and rationing, and government-funded abortion.
Breaking news today is that Anita MonCrief will file an FEC complaint against the Obama campaign for “illicit coordination” with ACORN. MonCrief is in possession of his campaign donor list and claims that The New York Times turned down publishing her story before the election, stating that it would be a “game-changer” for Obama if they did. MonCrief claims that ACORN conducted and admitted to a “massive push” for Obama in 2008 instead of fulfilling its purported role of a “non-partisan” organization.
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/07/24/liberal-journalists-shamelessly-shilled-for-obama-to-hand-him-the-election/
And as usual the Post and Fail publishes a seditious article from the former General Paul Valley….
“We cannot permit the current leaders in the White House and Halls of Congress to continue in their efforts to lead us down the road of Progressive Socialism. This is the current battle that we Constitutionalists face and we must be aggressive in our efforts. Of notice is the Arrogance Incompetence and Dishonesty of officials as relates to Legislation, National Security, Economy, and is the rationale for multiple resignations and a serious change of government. The Fate of the country is now in our hands and the plea from the majority of our citizens is to enforce our Constitutional and Existing Laws. There is a growing list of documented violations by current elected and appointed government officials of the Constitution and their Oath of Office. The 2010 November elections will be the most pivotal mid-term elections in our history.
“We, the People” have had enough. Enough is Enough. The Obama White House and identifiable Members of Congress are now on a progressive, socialist and treasonous death march and are bankrupting the country beyond expectations. We have watched them violate their sacred oath of office. “We, the People” cannot solely depend on the results of the elections. It is now that many of these public servants (and you know who they are) must put the people and country interests above self-interest by resigning immediately. A civil uprising is still not out of the question as “pain” grips the country more each day. I am confident many more resignations and new representation will be forthcoming based on the efforts of the people. This means raising your voice now to your neighbors, family, co-workers, and friends. Be the Captains of your Souls. I pray for another George Washington to appear within the year and lead us.”
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/07/25/we-are-the-masters-of-our-fate-and-captains-of-our-soul/
.
"Documented assertions?"
.
"Honest answers?"
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"Rational arguments?"
.
What a bunch of claptrap!. .
.
There is not one shred of tangible valid evidence proving that Obama was born in Hawaii.
.
Zero. Zip. Nada. Nyet. No way. No how. No dice. .
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Your "evidence" is the "assertion" of a Hawaiian bureaucrat, running interference for Obama? Really?
.
That’s your proof? A "documented assertion?" What can you do with a "documented assertion?" .
Can you get a driver’s license with a “documented assertion?”
How about a valid Social Security card?
A valid US Passport?
A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools?
A valid enrollment in college?
A valid Marriage License?
A valid License to practice law, medicine, etc.?
.
Can you show a one-sided Internet image of a COLB to get a
valid Drivers’ License? A valid Social Security card? A valid US
Passport? A valid enrollment in elementary and secondary schools?
A valid enrollment in college? A valid Marriage License? A valid
License to practice law, medicine, etc.?
.
This is how ridiculous your arguments are.
.
You asked me to tell you how Obama’s birth certificate/birth
record has been handled any differently than any other.I was
going to put this over on the Spinning Fukino thread, but it is
more applicable here because of this total nonsense being thrown
around as if any of resembled the truth.
.
Before November 2008 election:
.
The Hawaiian Health Department did the following:
.
Lied to the public that they no longer provide anyone
with a copy of their original, long-form birth
certificate.
.
Lied to the public that they have no way for anyone
to request a copy of their original, long-form birth
certificate.
.
Lied to the public that they discarded original,
long-form birth certificates when they went to electronic
records.
.
Lied to electors that they could not get verification
of Obama’s birth certificate.
.
Twice violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by publicly
disclosing private information from Obama’s vital
records.
.
Refused to confirm they produced a genuine, certified
COLB for Obama.
.
Never authenticated the online COLB
.
Stated that someone had requested it in June 2008,
but the online COLB is date-stamped June 2007.
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Deliberately avodied telling the public that a COLB
is not, and never was, an original birth certificate.
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Stated two days before election that they have
Obama’s original birth certificate but never confirmed
that it was issued by Hawaii and, if so, then what type
of birth certificate was it.
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Before November 2008 election:
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The Governor’s Office did the following:
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Did not say anything about Obama’s birth certificate.
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Did say that Obama "does not act like someone
born in Hawaii."
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After the November 2008 election:
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The Hawaiian Health Department did the following:
.
Violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by again publicly
disclosing private information from Obama’s vital
records.
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Eight months afterwards, disclosed that Obama’s
"vital records" (not his "birth
certificate") indicate he was born in Hawaii, but
never identifed what those vital records were.
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Had the Hawaiian Homeland Program remove its
requirement for submitting a long-form birth certificate
and allow the COLB to be a sufficient proof of birth.
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Confirmed that original, long-form birth certificates
are still kept on file as required by law..
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Vigorously supported unconstitutional law to deny
Freedom of Information inquiries to "vexatious
requestors."
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Lied under oath at hearings about the true numbers of
people requesting copies of Obama’s birth certificate.
.
Lied under oath at hearings that Obama posted a copy
of his "birth certificate" after refusing to
authenticate it.
.
Also violated Hawaii Statute 338-18, again, by
stating that Obama posted a copy of his birth
certificate.
.
Secretly and illegally probed the identities of
persons submitting Freedom of Information requests
.
Capriciously violated the Constitutional rights of US
citizens making Freedom of Information requests.
.
Lied about not having the information sought by
citizens submitting Freedom of Information requests.
.
Deliberately delayed responding to citizens
submitting Freedom of Information requests for index data
related to Obama’s birth record , and not about his birth
certificate – that Hawaii is required by Law to duly
provide.
.
Eliminated the Certification of Live Birth (COLB)
form solely because of questions raised about Obama’s
COLB
.
Created a new Certificate of Live Birth form solely
because of questions raised about Obama’s COLB.
.
After November 2008 election:
.
The Governor’s Office did the following:
.
Lied about sending Fukino to check out Obama’s birth
certificate.
.
Lied about issuing a press release along with Fukino.
.
Lied about Fukino identifying the name of the
hospital where Obama was born
.
Violated Hawaii Statute 338-18 by publicly disclosing
private information from Obama’s vital records.
.
The Attorney General’s Office
.
Refused to back Fukino’s July 27, 2009 statement
.
What exactly is "authoritative" about a Hawaiian
bureaucrat, running interference for Obama? How do her
statements become elevated to the level of the Constitution,
considering that they’ve already violated it along with several
Hawaii Statutes just to prevent Obama’s true original birth
certificate from ever seeing the light of day.
.
Plus, how contemptuous is it for people who do not trust
Republicans, who claim they lie all the time, to suddenly
elevate this particular Republican to the level of a
Goddess on Mount Olympus and attribute to her all kinds of "authority,
faith, and credit" for making a statement, full of
fictitious events, that support their unsubstantiated beliefs
along with the unsubstantiated statements made by a Hawaiian
bureaucrat, running interference for Obama, despite the
fact that this particular Republican is a phony baloney
Republican, who is as liberal to the core as any Democrat, just
like the phony baloney Republican she campaigned for, Senator
John "Amnesty" McSame.
.
Now, that was onelongassedrunonsentence!
.
Is there is another "citizen" in the United States
of America who has a state health department bureaucrat
running interference for him, to prevent the disclosure
of his original paper birth certificate, along with every other
piece of direct and tangible evidence that would either support
or refute his alleged birth in the State of Hawaii?
.
No other individual in Hawaii State history or US history has
ever gotten away with refusing to provide valid proof of his US
citizenship when required to do so.
.
And you’re asking how has his record been handled any
differently?
.
Obama’s entire history and identity has been handled
differently from everyone else. Only Deep Throat was more
secretive about his identity than Obama.
.
How is this for anonymous — you elected an anonymous
person to the White House.
.
The simple and inescapable truth is that Barack Obama could have
made all of questions go away by releasing his original birth
certificate – by refusing to do so, this case will never close,
Will.
.
On the contrary, this case keeps getting wider and wilder by
the day and the only thing that is closed are the minds of those
who believe that Fukino’s October 2008 press release confirmed
that she saw Obama’s original, long-form, Hawaiian birth
certificate and said that Obama was born in Hawaii, as well as
believing that the birth announcements also prove he was born in
Hawaii
.
You’ve elected the worst person to ever occupy the White House
and his term is not yet half over. I wouldn’t trust any
politician of any party to tell me the day of the week, let alone
tell me that, "Trust me when I tell you that this totally
inept community organizer from Chicago was born in Hawaii."
.
Obama is not an Article II natural-born citizen as required by
the Constitution. Of course, without any direct and tangible
proof of his birth in the US, we can’t say he is even a US
citizen. The question of his birth place, despite all of the
protests made on his behalf, is based on the verbal statement of
a Hawaiian bureaucrat running interference for Obama, who
would be in really deep doo-doo (and probably be tarred and
feathered by Hawaiian residents) if she said anything other than
Obama was born there.
.
Actually, since the Health Department is not permitted to
disclose anything about the contents of Obama’s vital records,
they broke their own laws for the benefit of the Senator from
Illinois, who has done absolutely nothing for the State of Hawaii
in his entire political career.
.
This is not to say that Obama did not promise the moon to
Asian-Americans and Native Hawaiians in order to get their votes.
He made the same promises to every other hyphen-Americans, only
to screw them over after the election.
.
Does anyone know of any other Hawaiian vital record treated in
this manner?
.
How about any other of the 56 (sic) states in the
nation?
.
Would you bet your entire life’s savings that he was born in
Hawaii? Or that his original birth certificate contains the same
as information as on his COLB image?
.
.
Obama’s 2007 COLB, even if it was authentic, is not his
original birth certificate.
.
A 2007 COLB is not an original birth certificate, is
not a copy of an original birth certificate, and never can be
used in place of an original birth certificate, to prove anyone’s
birth in Hawaii.
.
Sorry, but Barack Obama is the only person in the United
States of America who refuses to produce, in its entirety, an
actual, paper birth certificate, whether it is a long-form,
short-form, or any other form of birth certificate that is an
actual, physical, official, government produced and government
certified, paper instrument that unequivocally documents his
birth in Hawaii and in Kapi’olani Hospital.
.
To say otherwise is madness.
Australia has a requirement that visitors have to obtain an “Electronic Travel Authority” in advance. The ETA in effect means that you have been cleared in advance for entry into the country, and it also permits you to stay for up to 90 days. This probably has something to do with the fact that they stamp passports upon departure.
So what? Twittered and blogged ARE legitimate verbs?
I didn’t say they were. You have a serious problem with logic, birther boy.
The venality and mendacity of those people know no bounds.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2010140720100721
$700 billion more to the banks. No vote, no discussion, no complaints by Republicans and so called deficit hawks.But we should cut pensions, education and spending on public needs.
That is exactly how the Nazi party wormed its way in.
This is just for you, Majority Will:
Hey everybody, where I wrote “Photoshopped” in a previous post, please delete that word and insert “scanned.”
Happy now? Can we get back to political issues?
The original posted image with the expurgated number may in fact have been “photoshopped” in that after the scan they used Photoshop to blackout the number. They could have used any number of other image editing programs instead. The real point, though, is that the original, paper COLB was not modified & continued to have a separate existence wholly independent of the jpeg file.
Ecstatic. Did you understand my point about birther’s implying fraud and deception without proof or is this just a snark fest now?
The FUD campaign is being waged on a few different levels and most people seem to not realize they’re being duped.
Birthers citing WND, Newsbusters or the P&E are good examples.
Excellent point. Thanks, Sef.
Someone here was once arguing microscopic threads and differing light angles for the supposed proof of a lack of a raised seal in yet another desperate attempt to invalidate the COLB. Sophistic, irrelevant nonsense.
It is because they are involved in revising history. Meaning under the Bush years, everything was great and now that Obama is President the country is going down the tubes. What is even more amusing is how FOX and some of the ultra right wing conservatives like Limbaugh and Hannity actually are trying to hang Iraq and Afganistan on the Obama administration. Amazing. And the birther hate, where because Obama is (fill in the blank) they are willing to believe in any sort of nonsense that they can come up with. Think about it. Obama is a Nazi/Communist/Socialist, even though those terms are contradictory. They play on the so called “fears of Whites of Blacks” by using terms like “reparations” when discussing his policies. Pointing out the ethnicities of Sotamayor and Holder. Calling him stupid even though he graduated from Columbia and Harvard law. The list goes on. Let us be honest. No document is ever going to satisfy the birthers. No court ruling will be enough. As long as he is President, there will be some that will perpetuate these stories in order to undermine his administration. The birthers are just the latest useful pawns in this endeavor.
The COLB is a certified abstract copy of Obama’s original birth certificate, the standard form certificate of the state of Hawaii (and most other states nowadays). It is exactly the accepted documentation to prove birth in the United States for all legal purposes. You’re a crank.
And by saying this, Vallely admits that he does not represent “We the people” but some minority too small to influence the elections.
I have a great respect for our Constitution and the wisdom of the founders, but I would attribute much of the historical political stability of the United States to the fact that most Americans are pretty well off, and those with much to loose are less likely to rock the boat. While there is some anxiety over the current recession, I think most folks are optimistic about a recovery in a reasonable amount of time.
I went to a very working class wedding a few weeks back where one of the brides maids was black. You commonly see folks of different races having lunch together and interracial dating and marriage is becoming more common. And this is in the deep south.
No, I do not see how we are anywhere near a tipping point where the crazies do anything but affect a few elections in conservative-lock districts.
Doc, great catch. Vallely is admitting that he is advocation sedition. Meaning that even though the President was elected fairly and in accordance to the Constitution, since he doesn’t like the results it is OK to want to overthrow the government…
And oldie but goodie….It is long but worth reading again….and most of all it is so true….
http://kaystreet.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/an-open-letter-to-conservatives-redux/
Recent news events call for a reposting of Russell King’s “An Open Letter To Conservatives” in its entirety.
Dear Conservative Americans,
The years have not been kind to you. I grew up in a profoundly Republican home, so I can remember when you wore a very different face than the one we see now. You’ve lost me and you’ve lost most of America. Because I believe having responsible choices is important to democracy, I’d like to give you some advice and an invitation.
First, the invitation: Come back to us.
Now the advice. You’re going to have to come up with a platform that isn’t built on a foundation of cowardice: fear of people with colors, religions, cultures and sex lives that differ from your own; fear of reform in banking, health care, energy; fantasy fears of America being transformed into an Islamic nation, into social/commun/fasc-ism, into a disarmed populace put in internment camps; and more. But you have work to do even before you take on that task.
Your party — the GOP — and the conservative end of the American political spectrum have become irresponsible and irrational. Worse, it’s tolerating, promoting and celebrating prejudice and hatred. Let me provide some examples — by no means an exhaustive list — of where the Right as gotten itself stuck in a swamp of hypocrisy, hyperbole, historical inaccuracy and hatred.
If you’re going to regain your stature as a party of rational, responsible people, you’ll have to start by draining this swamp:
……
So, dear conservatives, get to work. Drain the swamp of the conspiracy nuts, the bald-faced liars undeterred by demonstrable facts, the overt hypocrisy and the hatred. Then offer us a calm, responsible, grownup agenda based on your values and your vision for America. We may or may not agree with your values and vision, but we’ll certainly welcome you back to the American mainstream with open arms. We need you.
(Anticipating your initial response: No there is nothing that even comes close to this level of wingnuttery on the American Left.)
I should charge by the inch for cut and paste comments (you can tell by the narrow column). I think PetJake’s comment could be patched up to be more or less correct by removing the word “not” everywhere it appears, and inserting “not” where it does not appear.
Sorry, but the cost of sending every US citizen Obama’s birth certificate would be prohibitive. This is why he scanned it and put it online. He later had it inspected and photographed by Factcheck.
What is your basis for believing that the Hawaii Department of Health still issues people with birth certificates today in the form of certified photocopies of the original? If you are going to accuse someone of lying, you had better have strong evidence.
And which other Presidents have scanned their birth certificates and put them online? Which have invited Factcheck or a similar organisation to inspect their birth certificate and show take their own photos to release to the public.
As to your assertions that he has been obligated to provide evidence of his birth, please cite a relevant statute or regulation creating an evidential burden.
Full faith and credit has to do with the constitutional duty of other governments in the US to recognise Hawaii’s official acts, records, and proceedings. This applies to the Certification of Live Birth, which is, under Hawaii law, as valid as the original record to establish the facts stated on the document. (The validity of the document is not limited to the US. Obama could easily use his Certification of Live Birth to prove the facts of his birth in any Hague Convention country by taking it to the Hawaii Secretary of State for an apostille.)
As to why people who normally distrust Republicans trust the word of Lingle on this matter, it’s called a statement against interest. A statement is deemed to be more likely to be true if it actually goes against the interests of the party making the statement. As a Republican, Lingle would have an interest in undermining Obama.
No person ever possesses their original birth certificate, as the original is kept in the archives of the relevant vital records office. Under Hawaii law, the 2007 Certification of Live Birth constitutes a valid certified copy and is evidence of the facts stated on it to the same extent of the original. Hawaii’s standards for a normal Certification of Live Birth meet State Department standards for proving US citizenship.
First, your last paragraph is wrong. because *I*, Ellid, categorically refuse to produce MY “long form” birth certificate from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I refuse to do so because the abstract certificate the Commonwealth sent me in 1989 is legally all that’s required. Same thing with the President.
Second, go back to Troll Land and leave the grown-ups alone. Your assertions are tiresome.
NOW COMES THE TIME WHEN WE DANCE!!!!!!
PetJake appears to be PooPooPolarik’s shiny new sockpuppet.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n7HxdjdikZsJ:profiles.yahoo.com/polarik
Yes, I understand your point.
Thanks.
Actually, Obama has done rather more than legally required by scanning his Certification of Live Birth and putting it online and then making the hard copy available for inspection by Factcheck.
Not only are certified abstract copies sufficient in nearly all circumstances, but there are many people who have never held a certified photocopy of the original or similar “long form” certificate. I am one of them. My parents used my New York Certification of Birth (a certified abstract) to apply for my Social Security Card. I used it to get a state ID and later a US passport.
Great catch and not surprising.
Many birthers are desperate and pathetic enough into trying to convince anyone that he/she is not completely delusional and whack-a-doodle.
Except for the Document, issued by the State of Hawaii, that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii. Other than that, you’re right.
Actually, our evidence is the document behind the pictures.
You can do all these things with the document that was scanned and photographed.
Nice strawman. Now, let me put this same strawman upto you. You obviously do not believe that Obama putting his birth certificate out on the internet in both pictures and a scan is not enough. So, you must believe that candinates should furbish the birth certificate to every single voter. The State of Hawaii says that the first copy of the birth certificate costs $10, and every copy after that costs $4 (ordered at the same time). Now, if we were to limit it to the number of people that voted in 2008, and then got each one of them their own valid Hawaii state birth certificate (131,257,328), that would mean that the copies alone would cost $525,029,318.
Furthermore, there are 231,229,580 people in the voting age population. So, if we were to furbish every single one of them with their own Hawaii State Birth Certificate (since you do not believe that a reliable fact-checking organization is reliable enough to prove Citizenship), that would cost $924,918,326 in the cost of the birth certificates. You add another 44 cents to the cost (cost of the stamp to mail it), and it would be $1,026,659,341.20. Since we don’t know which voters will vote, and new registrations, or who will drop off the registrations, this is the number that I’ll use.
Barack Obama spent about $513,557,218. You want candinates to spend somewhere around double the most that anybody has actually spent on any campaign just to prove that they’re eligible to campaign?
Help me understand your definition of a lie vs. mistake when a politician is involved. Did Obama make a mistake or lie to the public: (7 min)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmVBbb5nPY
For those with ADD there is a shorter example (2 min):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0&feature=related
Be careful, you are going to confuse him with logic and common sense….Then Ron won’t come out and play anymore…like Mario. Also remember this is the same guy that thinks that Obama’s COLB is based off the Janice Okubo original and his so called “analysis” was so pathetic that the Freepers over at FR laughed him off the thread in less than 20 minutes….
I went from Belgium to Italy through France and Switzerland in … 1991 and was never checked at any border! Switzerland was a de facto member very early. On the other hand, they kept checking (and stamping) passports, even those of Schengen “partners” at airports for a long time.
Even today, Switzerland is a bit the odd one out – whereas every other police force in Schengen is very happy to use the right to hot pursuit when criminals flee across the border (unbelievably, this right did not exist during the first five years of checkless borders), the Swiss police are very reluctant to do so – it seems they are afraid of the financial consequences of any accident abroad. I wonder whet Vattel would say about that.
Schengen put an end to the romantic hot pursuits in boats on Lake Lugano (Campione d’Italia is no longer a refuge for smugglers), but created new problems in the East of Europe. http://geosite.jankrogh.com/borders/bylt/sakaline.htm
Unlike Alice in Wonderland …
I think that figure only includes adults living within the US who are 18 or older. I would not be in that figure, even though I am a US citizen and remain eligible to cast an absentee ballot for federal offices. Will I and each of the several million US citizens living abroad receive Obama’s certificate?
]Perhaps Obama can save some money on the distribution of his certificate within the US by only showing it to those who are willing to confirm that they are US citizens and show their own birth certificates: “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours.”
I read newspaper articles mentioning: Obama’s foreign birth in Indonesia (Honolulu Advertiser), Hawaii birth in the Queen’s hospital, birth in Kapiolani.
Kenyan ambassador Ogego mentioned Kenya as Obama’s birthplace…
The first press-release by Fukino was worded in such way to imply Hawaii birth without saying it explicitly. It got my attention because I thought that this was an attempt by Fukino to help Obama without perjuring herself.
And of course we cannot ignore the COLB timeline. When the first COLB image was published on Daily Kos, within hours there were comments posted mentioning its deficiencies. If Obama campaign had a legitimate COLB on their hands at that time they could have posted a good quality scan showing the folds and the state seal. They waited two months for improved version to be created and then allowed just two people from FactCheck to see the document.
Finally we have Tim Adams challenging the official story, the same is true with James Orengo and his statement in the Kenyan Parliament.
It is not an accident that the original birth certificte is hidden from public – it does not support the official birthplace story, otherwise we would have seen it long time ago.
Don’t feed this troll. As if repeating the sam idiotic, nit picky nonsense ad nauseam will magically make it even remotely plausible and relevant.
Tim Adams . . . [rolls eyes] . . . . guano psychoses abounds.
Orly Taitz probably does not have a valid real birth certificate. So, she will never agree to this.
In the early 1980s, Jews leaving the Soviet Union had to bring all their personal documentation to the airport, where they were confiscated by the emigration police. Instead, they got an “exit visa” good for leaving the USSR , never to return.
There was a joke about the documents not being destroyed but being sent to some Central Asian republic for recuperating the paper. To be used in printing Korans.
“Don’t feed this troll. As if repeating the sam idiotic . . .
(Make that “please don’t” and “the same idiotic.”)
Long day.
I still suggest that poor ol’ NC1 go to a law dictionary and look up the term “self-authenticating document.” He obviously doesn’t have a clue. At the bottom of every COLB issued by the state of Hawaii it contains the following statement: “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.”
Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health is quoted below by the “Washington Independent” on July 17, 2009: “Ironically, the birther’ movement began in response to Obama’s own efforts to debunk rumors. One year ago this week, the presidential campaign of then-Sen. Barack Obama launched FightTheSmears.com, a web site designed to push back against false rumors about the first African-American presidential nominee. To push back against rumors that he was not born in Hawaii, the campaign reproduced a Certificate of Live Birth from the state’s Health Department. Instead of terminating the conspiracy theories, that inspired new theories — that the certificate had been forged or that even if it hadn’t been forged it was the sort of certificate that could be given to someone born outside of the United States. But the certificate is specific about Obama’s birth in Honolulu, down to the 7:24 p.m. time.
It’s crazy,’ said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. I don’t think anything is ever going to satisfy them.’”
Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama Birthers’ that are more like threats,’ explained that the Certificate of Live Birth reproduced by Obama’s campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. If you were born in Bali, for example,’ Okubo explained, ‘you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it’s become very clear that it doesn’t matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It’s just become an urban legend at this point.’” End of excerpt.
What is obvious is that the state of Hawaii has every intention of standing behind the Obama COLB should any Obama ineligibility lawsuit ever make it to an actual trial but thus far, in 71 attempts, none has made it to trial. I don’t expect that to change since birthers’ attorneys are too inept to present a plaintiff with standing to sue.
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.”–Albert Einstein
I don’t know if the authorities in Moldova today would be able to issue a new certificate to Taitz. (By the way, if Orly Taitz is reading this comment and misses Moldova, she should click here to get her fill of the culture of Moldova.)
Regardless of whether or not Taitz gets her hands on Obama’s certificate, she will react to being given any document by alleging fraud (and she might throw in an accusation of treason for good luck).
new fun:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20100726/el_yblog_upshot/colorados-buck-attacks-tea-party-base-calls-birthers-dumbasses
Like I said, if you had exercised some healthy skepticism, you might not have fallen down the mental rabbit hole.
And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.
And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.
No one does respect him anyway. He’s done this same thing over at other sites, its just repeat the same discredited nonsense.
And if when confronted you change the subject, no one will respect you either.
I did not change the subject. I simply asked you to define difference between a lie and a mistake in a public speech given by a politician using Obama as an example.
Had you answered my question I would have been in a better position to understand your statement about Gov. Lingle.
Poor old nc1 did not get the memo about any court receiving the COLB document from Obama. I would like to see Obama sending the COLB to a court dealing with the eligibility issue. Until it happens, please spare me ramblings about “self-authenticating document”. An image posted on a private web site is not equivalent to a physical document submitted to a court.
Okubo and her ilk could have answered a simple Yes/No question: Did the Hawaii DoH issue COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007? They have refused to do so.
Her opinion about birthers is irrelevant.
Poor Old NC1,
President Obama, remains President Obama and ther is nothing you can do about it until 2012.
So, since this is SOOOOOO important to YOU (and no one else with 3 functional neurons).
I suggest you raise your lardy arse out of the Barcalounger, get involved in grown up, big boy trousers politics and attempt to find a politician who meets your personal and vatuous requirements and then try and get them in the running for the Presidency.
Best of luck with that as ANY politician acceptable to you will fare worse than Orly Taitz in California.
Oh, I was channeling probably the only candidate that would meet your requirements, Good Ole Sarah, so I thought I’d better make up a new “Shakespeare” word for the occassion,……..Vacuous + Fatuous = Vatuous………
(bada-bing)
I thought it was two.
I have enough experience with birth certificates from Russia and the Ukraine to presume the answer is yes. Somewhere in an archive building in Kishinev/Chisinau there must be a document attesting to her birth. There are some problems of course, since Moldavian is now written in Latin characters and no longer in Cyrillic (except in Transdnyestria) and Orly herself does not seem to know whether her name was Averbuch or Auerbuch. And then there are some silly civil servants who translate personal names (like the Ukrainian administration which translated the Russian family name Chemodanov into Bagazhnik, and yes this really happened). Perhaps Orly’s maiden name was translated into the Romanian equivalent of Oatsbook, which is why she prefers Auerbuch.
Another question altogether is whether according to the Orly-Polarik rules of evidence an abstract of a communist document seasoned for forty years in a pork leather cupboard drawer marked “Yids” is a valid birth certificate. The answer is obvious.
When the Encyclopedia Dramatica contains more truth about Orly Taitz than Wikipedia (although they too do not connect her stay in Romania to her dentist degree) you know the world is coming to an end. http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Orly_Taitz
Asked and answered a year ago on the Independent. Why won’t you admit that you already know the answers to your questions? And why won’t you respond to any of my posts? Scared of outing yourself as a dear and close friend of Orly Taitz, old sport?
Not nearly as irrelevant as your incessant rambling.
“I’m telling you there’s an enemy that would like to attack America, Americans, again. There just is. That’s the reality of the world. And I wish him all the very best.” –George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 12, 2009
Is this a misstatement or is George supporting terrorists?
”There are some who feel like — that the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, bring them on.”
GW Bush, July 2, 2003
“I couldn’t imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah.” — GWB at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001
And George W. Bush, born-again Baptist, understands the joy of Hanukkah HOW? Wasn’t this the man who sent out invitations for a Hanukkah reception bearing images of the White House Christmas tree?
nc1. you contend that obama’s grandmother fraudulently registered his birth in hawaii ( thus explaining the newspaper accounts ) while he and the parents were taking a 20 day ship voyage back from kenya and there would be no physical evidence of a child existing until weeks after the registration. then you contend that instead of simply requesting a COLB from the hawaiian DoH ( since he would have been registered ) obama had a forgery made.
correct ?
Merry Hanukkah from the White House!
The president and the first lady invited leaders of America’s Jewish community for a Hanukkah reception at the White House next month – but raised more than a few eyebrows by putting a picture of a Christmas tree on the invitation.
The message reads that the couple “requests the pleasure of your company at a Hanukkah reception,” written beneath an image of a Clydesdale horse hauling a Christmas fir along the snow-dappled drive to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
And, no, it is not a Hanukkah bush. A close look at the wagon reveals the message “White House Christmas Tree 2008.”
In the background, the White House windows are festooned with Christmas wreaths.
The incongruity of the message did not go unnoticed.
“It’s absolutely bizarre to receive an invite to the White House for Hanukkah in a Christmas format,” said one person who was invited. “They should have consulted with their chief of protocol before sending this out. This belongs right in the ‘Weird But True’ column.”
Jewish community leader Isaac Abraham of Brooklyn had a simpler explanation.
“It’s obvious what’s going on here: The Christmas tree is being taken out of the White House and the menorah is being brought in the back,” he quipped.
When reached for comment, Laura Bush’s spokeswoman, Sally McDonough, said the White House usually prints separate cards, but in the waning days of the presidency, there had been an oversight.
“Mrs. Bush is apologetic,” she said. “It is something that just slipped through the cracks.”
Source: nypost.com
“It’ll be hard to articulate.” -George W. Bush, anticipating how he’ll feel upon assuming the presidency, Jan. 2001
And he proved it by mumbling most of the time.
I think he misunderestimated the job.
But Bush’s Presidential Library will be filled with Scratch and Sniff and Pop Up books and cots for nap time.
A lie is an intentional act of deception. Do I think Obama intentionally misquoted Justice Brandeis? Of course not. Do I think Obama intentionally made a campaign promise that he had no intention of keeping? No one can say what was in his mind at the time. So no, I think the YouTube video calling these things a cheap smear and itself a lie, an attempt to deceive.
Now back to the question: do you seriously believe that Governor Lingle intentionally misstated the contents of the Press Release from the Department of Health, something that was on the DOH web site for everybody in the world to see? Or is it more likely that a question totally out of the blue on a radio interview resulted in her confusing her knowledge of where Obama was born from other sources (the Kapi’Olani celebration she attended in February) in stead of the press release?
I think calling this a lie is an irresponsible smear, an attempt to deceive, and a lie.
And how do you know that copies of Obama’s COLB have not been submitted with the legal briefs of Department of Justice Attorneys in Obama Eligibility Lawsuits? Since every one of 71 Obama eligibility lawsuits has been dismissed. We don’t know that the dismissal briefs which defendants’ attorneys have submitted don’t include a nice new copy of an Obama Hawaii COLB.
It would make no sense for defense attorneys not to submit a certified copy of Obama’s COLB rather than a copy of a scanned internet image from a website. I’m certain that the President would give his permission for his own attorneys to file a copy of his COLB obtained from the state of Hawaii.
Since Birther attorneys are too inept to present a plaintiff with legal standing to sue in any of these lawsuits, we’ll probably never know.
There are some first rate constitutional law firms that take up conservative issues. These firms have argued cases before the US Supreme Court and WON on conservative issues like partial birth abortion, gun control and affirmative action. Some of the better known of these firms and legal organizations are: The Center for Individual RIghts, The Washington Legal Foundation, The American Center for Law and Justice, The Landmark Legal Foundation, Judicial Watch, The Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies, The Institute for Justice, The Pacific Legal Foundation and the Alliance Defense Fund, just to name a few.
It is very telling that none of the major conservative constitutional law entities has gone anywhere NEAR a birther lawsuit. They have not even filed an amicus brief in support of any of these frivolous filings. These are lawyers who know how to find a plaintiff with standing and these are lawyers who know how to present a legal argument without getting sanctioned by a judge.
“A spurious claim questioning the President’s constitutional legitimacy may be protected by the First Amendment, but a Court’s placement of its imprimatur upon a claim that is so lacking in factual support that it is frivolous would undoubtedly disserve the public interest.”
–US Federal District Court Judge for the Middle District of Georgia Clay Land in dismissing “Rhodes v MacDonald” September 16, 2009 (Captain Connie Rhodes didn’t want to go to Iraq until Obama proved he was a natural born citizen. She lost.)
Bush’s autobiography is a pop-up book. He’s having his book signings around the country at Toys R Us.
And free copies of My Pet Goat for all adult visitors.
We know that for three reasons: Motions to dismiss do not include evidence (they would motions for summary judgment if they did). Moreover, the basis of most of these dismissals has been lack of standing; the COLB doesn’t address the standing issue. But, more importantly, many of the dismissal motions are online, and none of those have included the COLB.
The COLB, ultimately, is irrelevant. Hawaii’s index data says Obama was born in Hawaii. There is no way for the index data to state this and not be true, unless someone wishes to accuse either state workers or Obama’s family of fraud. Without any actual of evidence of fraud, mere accusation and speculation is not a reasonable basis for doubt.
Thanks for the education and the correction! I was obviously incorrectly assuming that the defense could include a vital record with their dismissal motion.
It was obvious from the opinion in Ankeny v The Governor of Indiana that plaintiffs had referenced factcheck.org, the Rocky Mountain News and other sources in their briefs so I (incorrectly) assumed that defendants might do the same thing.
Here’s what I mean, the following is from the Indiana Court of Appeals’ decision in Ankeny v The Governor of Indiana (the court ruled that two American parents are not required to be a natural born citizen).
“The bases of the Plaintiffs’ arguments come from such sources as FactCheck.org, The Rocky Mountain News, an eighteenth century treatise by Emmerich de Vattel titled “The Law of Nations,” and various citations to nineteenth century congressional debate. For the reasons stated below, we hold that the Plaintiffs’ arguments fail to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, and that therefore the trial court did not err in dismissing the Plaintiffs’ complaint.”–Indiana Court of Appeals, November 12, 2009
Do you really think that Hawaii’s Index Data on an Obama vital record is all the evidence that a Court would ever require and not an actual copy of a certified vital record?
The parties can submit whatever evidence they want (subject to the rules of evidence, of course). While it would certainly be possible to submit the index data to the court, it is easier (due to the evidentiary hoops) to submit the COLB . So I suspect the COLB is what would end up in the court’s file. I reference the index data only to short-circuit any argument that the image of the COLB is not accurate.
As to Ankeny, I’ve never seen their complaint. But from their opposition, as well as the courts’ rulings, I infer the references to fackcheck, etc. were in their original complaint. I’m not sure why the appeals court went out of its way to mention the bases of their arguments, but it is clear the court understand they were raising a two-citizen-parent argument, and then explained why that argument failed.
A court would require a certified abstract of the data — that is, the same thing we’ve seen on the COLB.
The existence of the index data is proof that a certified abstract could be issue at any time — the FACT that there is a record of Obama’s birth in the DOH database means that upon a proper application, the DOH must issue a COLB. So for ordinary people (general public), the presence of the index data is enough to know that if Obama were ever called upon to produce requisite documentation in court, he easily could produce it.
I don’t know where Obama was born. There are multiple sources mentioning birth in Kenya. The boat scenario was an answer to Dr. Misha who claimed that the Kenyan birth scenario was impossible because the airfare was very expensive and such journey would have been very inconvenient.
If Obama was born in Hawaii the DoH would have confirmed the issuing of COLB to him. There would be no need for playing games with the public. In addition, I don’t think that the first published image of his COLB would have been any different from other COLB images posted on the web (state seal and the second fold would have been visible to the naked eye).
Finally the answer to your question: Last summer a blogger (Terri K) asked the DoH for a copy of Amended birth certificate belonging to Obama. If such thing did not exist the proper answer under the Hawaii UIPA law would have been to say so. However, the DoH replied that the requestor was not eligible under law to receive a copy, implicitly confirming its existence. Perhaps Dr. C has saved this email correspondence, it was an interesting read on Donofrio’s web site.
I believe that Obama could obtain a legitimate COLB from the DoH, but it would contain the word Amended – that is why he does not want to publish it. Such a document would open a can of worms for him – it is easier to hide behind a forgery. All you need is a JOURNOLIST to cover for you in the media.
Lingle’s comment was a bit during a local radio interview, heard by a few people. Not being in print, there is no place to correct the statement. Sometimes those correctly arguing that Obama was born in Hawaii get some of their facts wrong. Just being right doesn’t insure the argument is sound. That’s why sites like this make the effort to avoid unfounded claims and correct the record when we err.
A chicken is a chicken no matter how you attempt to dress it up or distract someone from looking at a check. Yes, everyone is allowed to their opinion, but they loss respect when they attempt to distract from the truth.
Two documents were released from the governor’s office confirming that Obama was born in Hawaii. This is determined by the existence of the Gov. Lingle’s name clearly on the letter head. You can continue to attempt to murky the question, but the truth is obvious that Gov. Lingle was fully aware of the DOH’s response to the questions about Obama’s birth.
How can you believe that Obama has an amended Certificate of Live Birth in Hawaii if you don’t know where he was born?
FactCheck and the Rocky Mountain News both state that Obama was born with British citizenship, the latter mistakenly that he still had it.
None competent, or with personal knowledge.
The DoH has unambiguously said Obama was born in Hawaii; its index data also verifies this. That the DoH has not used the magic words that would please you is your problem, not Obama’s.
“Proper”? Hardly. That’s how you chose to read UIPA, but there’s no evidence that’s how Hawaii actually reads the UIPA. If disclosure of the existance of a document is not required under the UIPA, merely asking the converse (verification of the nonexistance) would also be exempt under the UIPA.
If DOH released a statement on their website saying that they were the ones who gave Obama his COLB, NC1 and others would still be doubting that it came from DOH, that the person who released it didn’t really work for DOH and somehow a hacker put up the press release. Or that Obama and the Feds forced the DOH to lie
as would a ship voyage. in both these scenarios baby obama and parents could not have arrived in hawaii from kenya till after the birth was registered in hawaii.
….and if terri k had requested a copy of a birth certificate ( amendment be damned ) she would have gotten the same reply. would that implicitly confirm the existence of a COLB without an amendment ?
nc1 has a severe learning ability, anwersing him or giving guidance to him does not have any effect. That probably means he is a troll, so don’t feed him.
Why do people in the “reality community” continually ignore the only realistic scenario. He was born in Kenya & then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis (the Master’s, not the Doctor’s) appearing at 7:24 on 8/4/61. His mother would have plenty of time to register him properly with no one the wiser. Makes sense to me.
There’s no probably about it. And there can be no reasoning when unmitigated hatred is the foundation of every pointless, baseless, speculative post. The secondary motivation for some birthers seems to be desperation for attention. Hence, the repetitive posting of slightly reworded, groundless and debunked theories. OMG. Someone in Africa somewhere may have uttered Kenya and Obama in the same sentence and that’s birther speak for solid evidence of a vast, super secret, nearly fifty years old conspiracy involving tens of thousands of people in foreign and domestic governments, the mainstream media and a super secret army of paid followers who maintain this awesome cover up.
Interesting theory. I always thought the keys were transparent aluminum and dilithium crystals.
And has absolutely the same validity as any of the birther theories.
And you somehow believe that traveling by sea would have been less expensive and more convenient?
My wife’s father made a career as a captain in the Republic of China navy. When he retired, he worked as a freighter captain.
I told her about the speculation of a steamship. She was laughing. That trip would have taken one month, on several steamship lines – each way. And it would have been far more expensive than air travel.
This gets crazier by the week.
“…then zipped back to Honolulu in a Tardis…”
.
No way, article 7 paragraph 14 of the Tardis manual states “…cannot be used to alter birth locations”, that leaves this scenario out. The only vehicle fast enough to accomplish this would be the ICBM, though the landing would have been rough. The ocean voyage could have worked during the “Flood”, he could have been Noah’s passanger. But most likely, he was born in Hawaii.
But the Master is known for not following the rules.
Most likely?! He WAS born on Mars, in a manger.
Obama’s family rode the ICBM Slim Pickens style all the way back to Hawaii
What landing? You’ll need to jump off well ahead of the air burst! And keep your eyes closed.
who had legal access to these records but was prevented ? what exact did obama do to accomplish this ? how much did this action cost ?
Lingle’s comment was a bit during a local radio interview, heard by a few people. Not being in print, there is no place to correct the statement. Sometimes those correctly arguing that Obama was born in Hawaii get some of their facts wrong. Just being right doesn’t insure the argument is sound. That’s why sites like this make the effort to avoid unfounded claims and correct the record when we err.
Governor Lingle’s radio interview is available to be listened to on YouTube and her statements were picked up by major news organizations.
The Governor Lingle interview can be listened to at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28W_9feWxBg
The Los Angeles Times and the Christian Science Monitor both carried the story in the mainstream media and there is nothing stopping any reporter, from Fox News, the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Times from doing a follow up story.
I am still having trouble finding a motive for a Repubilcan Governor who campaigned for John McCain and nominated Sarah Palin for Vice President to be lying or covering up for Barack Obama.
Where did you receive training and credentials in forensic science and forensic document examination?
Your delusions aside Jake. Hawaii did release that document. It has been verified by the DOH no matter how many ways you try to spin it to say otherwise. No other president has released his birth certificate to the public while president. Not even a scan. But you ask more of Obama than previous presidents… why?
Oh so its back down to 1.5 million instead of 2 you birthers can’t keep your numbers straight. You have never been able to prove more than $20 has even been spent. You do not have a right to personal records of anyone except your own or your family. Keep crying all you want.
There was never a 1919 team called the Chicago White Socks. You’re thinking of the White Sox. Annenberg is a republican run operations. Its founders were wealthy republicans. Leonore Annenberg gave substantially to John McCain. Funny fact, John McCain was dissing the Annenberg Challenge while trumpeting his endorsement by Annenberg. Another funny fact. John McCain supported Acorn and was seen at several of their events and gave speeches about them. The Black Panthers have nothing to do with your paranoid ramblings or that event in PA. You’re talking about the small fringe New Black Panther Party where no voters reported that they were intimidated. Besides what’s the point of Voter intimidation in a precinct that overwhelmingly already votes for Democrats?
Keep crying Jake; Obama is still president, you’re still a loser.
PetJake: When Obama stops trying to prevent the release of his original birth certificate that Kapiolani Hospital would have filled out, only then will he “do enough.”
.
funny that!
when my daughter tried to get a passport with her Kapi’olani Hospital issued birth certificate she was told that “souvenir” birth certificates are not acceptable, hospitals do not issue legal birth certificates, she had to get a state issued birth certificate witch happened to be a COLB (like Obama’s).
You really are a sucker on this issue, aren’t you.
Various people have asserted that Obama is able to easily obtain a certified photocopy of the original birth certificate that was filed on 8 August 1961.
I propose that someone manage to show that the Hawaii Department of Health is willing and able to issue a certified copy of a birth certificate in such a format by getting their own from Hawaii today.
we’ve had a few people on this site claim that altho hawaii “officially” claims to only release the COLB if you go to the DoH and ask in some special way ( not sure if a secret handshake is involved ) they will be happy to give you a photocopy of the original. one poster claimed his friend had one. doc c offered to post it on the site………… still has yet to appear.
If it is possible to obtain a copy of a long form Hawaii birth certificate, you’d think that there would be hundreds, possibly thousands of them already posted on the internet to every conceivable conservative blog and birther website. What a great way to embarrass Obama and to force his hand to release of copy of his long form. Either birthers are too stupid to take advantage of that strategy (always a possibility) or Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health is correct, no long form birth certificates have been available since the state of Hawaii went paperless and computerized their vital records (Birth, Death, Marriage) in 2001.
Instead, there is not a single one posted that I’ve seen, anywhere.
I sent an e-mail to Bill Keller and Paul Jensen, saying if they could get their own Hawaii COLB and prove it to me, I would donate to their cause.
Keller e-mailed back that Hawaii stopped issuing COLBs to non-residents since Obama was elected. I never got a reply from Jensen.
Ask Keller if he can provide you with evidence of single COLB (other than Obama’s, of course) which was issued to someone who was not born in Hawaii but which says that the person was born in Hawaii.
I keep asking birthers to show me an example, and they always “respond” with silence.
*vworp* *vworp* *vworp*
You have been reading the blog where the correspondence with the DoH has been documented. You sent me the link when I asked about the difference between the Filed vs Accepted phrases on Hawaii COLBs.
There has been a request for the release of information related to Obama’s request to amend his birth certificate – the response from the DoH was that the person asking for this data was not entitled to it – thus implicitly confiming its existence.
In addition, if Obama was born in Hawaii, the UIPA request for the original index records (from 1961) would not have been stalled for months in the DoH. These records are supposed to be permanently stored in the archives and available to the public upon request. The DoH is violating the UIPA law by not releasing this data.
If the original index data contained anything different from what has been shown in the Obama’s COLB – the DoH would not release it because it would expose their cover up for the past two years.
Congratulations on the clever onomatopoeia.
Sort of on topic:
Tim Lahaye, Evangelical Christian Minister, Warns Obama Bringing Us Closer To ‘The Apocalypse’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1or5mQFz6Pc&videos=4M2OBxyr6-M
because it would expose their cover up for the past two years.
.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
@nc1:
One cannot amend a certificate of live birth without having a certificate of live birth, and one cannot have a certificate of live birth without being born in the jurisdiction (in this case Hawaii). That is what a certificate of live birth is (as opposed to a certificate of foreign birth…). So if, as you believe, Obama has an amended certificate of live birth, then you must also admit that all the evidence you’re are going to get out of the Hawaii Department of Health in the way of documentation, amended or not, will show that he was born in Hawaii.
Denying access is not the same as implicitly confirming its existence. If I asked Hawaii if you had a criminal record and they denied me access, does that imply you do have one?
As for the index data: here it is. As for the delay: Hawaii’s DoH has much, much better things to do than promptly answer these kinds of requests. (And welcome to government work.)
Butterdezillion’s theory, being passed on by nc1, is that the State of Hawaii has an opinion letter about how to deny things in such a way as not to disclose whether the thing being denied exists or not. Because the Department of Health didn’t use what Butterdezillion considered an equivalent of this formula (“forgot to say please” or in this case: “[the] records that would be responsive to the request, if any, are exempt from disclosure pursuant to sections 92F-13(3) and (4)”) their denial became an informative denial. The central tenet of the Office of Information Practices (OIP) letter is that the agency should give the same reply whether they have the record or not. To my knowledge the birthers have not shown that the Hawaii Department of Health replies that they cannot release the information in one case, and that they have no information in another.
Apparently, BZ has requested and is entitled to see BO’s certificate number in his index data. Why won’t HDoH confirm the certificate number on the 1961 COLB?
Jules are you still here. Various people can assert anything, but it has no relevance to what is possible in Hawaii. Obama has produced a certified copy of his birth records.
However, it is amusing that you admit that there are no examples of what those people asserted. (Head shake)
Wouldn’t an amended vital record say “AMENDED” on the COLB produced from the amended vital record?
Just because you or BZ doesn’t make it so.
Generally, yes. An exception would be for unmarried parents when no father were listed originally, and father were added within some period of time after the birth. [HRS §338-21].
Nothing I see in the law that says the certificate number is part of index data. On the other hand, I don’t see an objection to releasing this information.
The problem with them is that they see a law that states something is possible, and then the conclude that it happened. They have nothing to support their arguments.
Fraudulent unattended birth registration by the grandmother, amended at some point.
An older version of law disclosed the file number for the vital event. It doesn’t now, but the BZ/Sven read an OIP opinion letter to require disclosure of information that once was public. (Of course, their reading is wrong.)
No evidence of fraud; no evidence of being amended.
But other than that….
All planned so that Obama could be the Manchurian Candidate of socialists, nazis, commies, and every other group of bad guys in the history of Planet Earth!
Stop fibbing. Stop making stuff up. Stop deceiving. And if you get paid for all your dishonesty, get a life, and a better job.
well if this was the case than obama would have no knowledge of this dastardly deed. since there would be an official registration of hawaiian birth it would be treated just the same as any other US birth.
shut the front door !!!!! you contend that the birth information was completely bogus from the beginning putting obama’s birth in hawaii…….. AND they had to amend it !!??!!!
how does this work ? honestly.
I agree that there is no reason to believe that the assertions about current practice in Hawaii are correct. That is why I have asked those making such assertions to find a birther born in Hawaii (and there must be a few, even if the vast majority of birthers were not born in Hawaii) and get that person to successfully order a birth certificate in the form of a certified photocopy of the original document in the acrhives. Unless and until they do so, then their assertions that Obama can still do the same will be nothing more than uninformed speculation.
There have been many cases of people who have requested birth certificates from the Department of Health and only got the Certification of Live Birth. It has been over two years now and they haven’t been able to produce anything. Is it the bad detective in conspiracy nuts or something else.
Asked and answered over a year ago. Why won’t you acknowledge that you’ve already been told all this long since? We know who you are already so there’s no sense in pretending that you haven’t been outed.
The farce is strong with this one.
If you argue with a fool, make sure you’re not doing the same thing.
The COLB on Fight the Smears website was forged to remove the word “amended.”
Later, HDoH come out say BO has vital records on file and we are to assume the COLB posted online the COLB on file with HDoH.
The question is, “Why was the COLB amended and why does Obama want to hide the fact his COLB has been amended?”
Birth Certificate number must be disclosed
http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/birth-certificate-number-must-be-disclosed/
You present no evidence in support of your allegation.
Actually, we know from Factcheck’s inspection of the document that it did not say amended and that the certificate number is 151 1961 – 010641. We also know that the raised seal and signature of Alvin T. Onaka were affixed to the document on June 6, 2007.
The answer is, “It wasn’t. Stop building your argument upon statements that have no basis in fact.”
you forgot to add the obligatory “hmmmmmmmmm”.
Sven. Sven. Sven.
Have you ever had anyone make up baseless accusations about you?
The real question is why do you keep beating a dead horse? There are dead horse chunks in every one of your posts.
Can you been amended? Are you mentally ill? Or is this your full time job?
No – the question is, “Why does Sven keep repeating the same discredited nonsense over and over again?”
So much easier to live in a fact optional world, isn’t it? Those of us stuck in the reality based world have to contend with silly little things like facts when we have to make statements…perhaps you should try it some time?
You folks are being too kind…or maybe just trying to not trigger the filter.
Let’s be straight – Sven’s going beyond his usual fantasy fiction nonsense and simply making bold faced L-I-E-S. He is nothing but a L-I-A-R and delusional smear-merchant. And a failed one at that.
F.B.I. Agents Under Investigation
Oublished: July 29, 2010
The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, told Congress on Wednesday that he did not know how many of his agents had cheated on an important exam on the bureau’s new policies on surveillance, a situation now being investigated by the Justice Department’s inspector general.
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Law Enforcement in need of an extreme makeover. And the FBI has a copy of Barry Soetoro’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality on file.
Shame! Shame!
Ah…more meaningless connections by Sven where there are none. The delusional mind is indeed a wonder to behold!
Hmmm what does the part above have to do with Obama? You do know Mueller is a holdover from George W Bush don’t you? Why would the FBI keep a copy of a loss of nationality on file when that is a record the State Department would keep?
Agreed…I wonder if Sven will try and make the following story part of the coverup…maybe the ficticious SS-4 or Loss of Nationality was what the criminals found in the President’s loan records and this is the way the Administration is going to keep them quiet….they take the deal or get sent to one of Orly’s infamous “FEMA” camps…
“DES MOINES, Iowa — Two former employees of a U.S. Department of Education contractor in Iowa have pleaded guilty to illegally viewing President Barack Obama’s student loan records.
Julie Kline of Ainsworth, Iowa, pleaded guilty Friday to exceeding authorized computer access. Gary Grenell of Iowa City pleaded guilty to the charge July 12. Both face up to one year in prison and a $100,000 fine.
They were among nine former employees of Vangent Inc. accused of viewing Obama’s student loan records between 2007 and 2009.
Three other defendants have pleaded guilty, and four are scheduled for trial.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38383073/ns/us_news
curious sven, what do you propose our new law enforcement look like ? is ty pennington involved in the extreme makeover ?
How many different voices are you carrying around in your head?
Does it get real loud in there sometimes?
If you submit a request for index data for a person having a common name like Joe Smith, what is the point of DoH parroting back the same information to you but multiple times? What is the purpose of index data if neither certificate number nor date are part of it? Such index has no meaning.
Obama has published the COLB and his lawyers have reffered to it in one of the lawsuits when they pointed out that images posted on FactCheck show his birth certificate.
The purpose of the UIPA law restrictions on releasing birth certificates to the public is the protection of privacy. When the compelling public interest exists and the person in question has already published the birth certificate – what prevents the DoH to confirm it? There is no privacy issue involved. It is that simple. Obama has already made it public. The effort by the DoH to prevent public from confirming the data shown in Obama’s COLB tells me that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery.
Express waiver; look it up.
More classic conspiracythink. (And hint: Both the COLB and index data indicate Obama was born in Hawaii, which is sufficient for natural-born citizenry purposes.)
just to keep up to date:
according to nc1…… there was a fraudulent birth certificate obtained by obama’s grandmother stating that he was born in hawaii ( and therefor, as far as anyone outside the little evil conspiracy was concerned, a legitimate birth certificate ). this was modified because of some unknown reason. then a very complex and accurate forgery of a 2007 COLB was made because they didn’t want to show the amendment that was put on there for……. what reason ????
correct ???
It may be inscrutable now.
But she’ll keep working on her theory for years until somehow, somehow, somehow it magically comes true.
There are so many more details and scenarios to fabricate. And obviously, it doesn’t really matter if you believe her.
Many birthers pin all of their hopes on a truly pathetic quest to rewrite history.
That is an obsession.
They are consumed with hatred and fear.
The purpose is to verify that what you thought you knew is true.
You cannot verify anything if the index data contains only a name.
How would a defense contractor with the requirement to hire only a US citizens verify that Joe Smith was indeed born in the Hawaii, if Joe Smith submitted a COLB as part of the job application, and the DoH refused to confirm it? If the HR person submitted a request to DoH including the name, date of birth and the certificate number – only then would a confirmation from the DoH be meaningful.
Could you explain what the express waiver theory is and how would it apply to this situation?
If the DoH released Obama’s COLB to the public (after it has already been published by Obama) – who would complain about it? Who would be the injured party?
You express here a common misconception. Birth Certificates are not identity documents.
because it’s a “self-authenticating document” ( there are those words again that you hate so much ). please show me ANY time someone has needed to show a COLB ( or equal document ) for ANY reason and needed it to be verified by the DoH………. ?????
How many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii?
Birther stupidity is sounding more and more like random static noise.
it may just be a personal attempt to disprove darwinism.
At least a dozen. (bada-bing)
In your scenario, what way has the Hawai’ian DoH ‘refused to confirm it’?
A COLB has an official Hawai’ian raised seal impressed onto it, and a signature from the official custodian of vital events records for the State of Hawai’i.
That is precisely the DoH confirming the information displayed on the form.
Period.
My scenario was very clear – an applicant had to be a US citizen in order to qualify for a job with a defense contractor.
Birth certificate is one of the documents that can be used to prove CITIZENSHIP.
If the DoH refused to confirm the index data for Joe Smith, certification number – what would be the point of having a birth index available to the public?
If a Joe Smith submitted a COLB document to a defense contractor as a part of a job application (only US citizens are considered for that particular job), how would a hiring person know that the document is a legitimate one and not a forged piece of paper, self-authenticating phrase notwithstanding.
When I applied for my present job, the company verified with the school that I really got a degree from that school. They did not rely solely on the document submitted in my job application.
The document obviously served as a filter in the screening process but once they decided on the candidate – they verified that documents were authentic.
I hope that the similar procedure is in place with those companies where sensitive information is handled and the US citizenship is required.
That is irrelevant question in this particular discussion.
A fraud prevention is one reason for having the birth index records available for public inspection. Rules for disclosing data have to make sense for anybody not just a person with a very unique name.
The current DoH practice of refusing to confirm the index data when registration number is included in the request makes absolutely no sense. The registration number is not a government secret, and outside the DoH office it serves no purpose (you cannot use it in a similar fashion like SSA number).
The DoH registration number is unique for each individual – it is a perfect key for identifying a particular Joe Smith among numerous other persons sharing the same name.
Forged documents are reality of life. In Obama’s case, even the seal you mentioned cannot be recognized as the Hawaii state seal. It is absent in the first COLB image and the FactCheck photograph is poor – you cannot distinguish letters. Even if letters were recognizable, you could not tell whether it was a legitimate document or a good forgery.
I have asked the question before and Obama supporters have not answered it: If the DoH issued a COLB to the public who would complain about it – who would be an injured party?
Nothing prevents the DoH from releasing the document after it has been published on the web and publicly acknowledged by Obama’s lawyers.
Using common sense and observing the DoH behavior one can easily see that they cannot release the document which would contradict the image Obama presented to the public. There is no other explanation for their refusal to acknowledge the issuing of COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.
They don’t have to issue a COLB — they PUBLISHED the INDEX DATA on the DOH web site, and also published TWO statements on their site attesting to the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii.
A COLB is nothing more than a piece of paper attesting to the FACTS that DOH has already posted publicly on their web site.
It is a strong statement to suggest that fraud has been committed. nc1, you seem to continue to babble about nothing.You have absolutely no authority in determining if a fraud has been committed or not. Also, you have provided absolutely nothing that would suggest that fraud has been committed.
You are incorrect about your assertions. It is the Department of Heath who can determine whether or not fraud has been committed. They are many tools at their disposal to investigate the issue, even include external investigators to look into the issue. They completed an investigate and confirmed the existence of the birth original record in their possession.
You comment about “confirm the index data” is just noise to distract from the fact that you have nothing.
One of the cornerstones of birtherdom is that Obama lost his citizenship in Indonesia. You have just agreed that it is impossible for a NBC child to give up his citizenship
nc, if you continue to undermine the birthers’ argument they won’t let you be one of their sock puppets.
Right, they cannot release such a contradicting document, because they don’t have such a contradicting document.
While it may be true in Hawaii that all registration numbers are unique, this is not the case nationwide. Some states have duplicate registration numbers. In general it’s not a very good key because the number isn’t widely known.
Relating a particular birth certificate to an original registration isn’t something of value, since BOTH say that George Walker Bush was born in Connecticut, and neither can tell you whether the person holding the certificate is either of them.
The vast majority of vital statistics fraud is when someone presents a valid birth certificate, but one that does not belong to them. In the systems being deployed in support of the Real ID act, they are verifying that the named person applying for a drivers license was really born using name, date and place of birth. These systems do not use certificate number. The important thing is not to validate the birth certificate, but the fact of birth; once that is done, the paper is irrelevant. The tricky part comes in trying to make sure that the person is who they claim to be, and the birth certificate doesn’t do that conclusively.
You continue to miss the point. You are contending that a person holding a valid piece of paper is proof that person is a citizen and you want to validate the piece of paper. That only makes sense if you assume that the piece of paper is an identity document. It is not.
A birth certificate is just a portable way of proving the fact of birth. The fact of birth can be validated externally without a certificate number. The problem is determining whether the person holding the certificate is the person named on the certificate, and no certificate number helps you there.
I suppose it would be possible to have a DNA sample taken at birth and linked to a birth registration. This would allow conclusive determination as to whether any given person is the individual named on a birth record. However, I hope that this is never done due to the massive invasion of privacy that would come with keeping everyone’s DNA on file.
Well you were talking about a generic name like Joe Smith. Saying the birth index would be hard to tell from others sharing the same name. That’s why I asked you how many Barack Obama’s do you think were born in Hawaii that there would be confusion over the birth index? Obviously you have problems with how vital statistic documents are created.
Hawaii HAS a prcess for verifying the information on a COLB, that doesn’t involve the Index data. If the defense contractor wants official verification of the data, he/she can request a Letter of Verification.
“Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.”
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html
This requires the permission of the named individual, of course, but is more information than the index data.
NC1 is not interested in information that contradicts her version of reality. She’ll have an explanation for how that letter is fraudulent or irrelevant.
Man: Look, this isn’t an argument.
Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.
Man: No it isn’t, it’s just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
Man: Yes it is.
Mr Vibrating: It is not.
Man: It is. You just contradicted me.
Mr Vibrating: No I didn’t.
Man: Ooh, you did!
Mr Vibrating: No, no, no, no, no.
Man: You did, just then.
Mr Vibrating: No, nonsense!
Man: Oh, look this is futile.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
Man: I came here for a good argument.
Mr Vibrating: No you didn’t, you came here for an argument.
Man: Well, an argument’s not the same as contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: It can be.
Man: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
Man: Yes it is. It isn’t just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Man: But it isn’t just saying ‘No it isn’t’.
Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.
Man: No it isn’t, Argument is an intellectual process … contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn’t.
Ma:n Yes it is.
Mr Vibrating: Not at all.
Man: Now look!
Mr Vibrating: (pressing the bell on his desk) That’s it. Good morning.
Yes, Obama could request a letter of verification from Hawaii and get a document re-stating the information that is on the Certification of Live Birth issued in 2007 and stating any other information from the original birth record of which Obama is aware. I suppose this means that he could get a confirmation that he was born in Kapi’olani Hospital. (He would only be able to get a verification of the name of the attending physician if he already knows the name. This would depend, I suppose, on whether he still has a certificate issued when Hawaii routinely issued certified photocopies of the original registration.)
Of course, the letter of verification itself is a document issued by the Hawaii Department of Health and will just lead to the same allegations of forgery or alteration. We would just come full circle with those who believe that a document issued by the Hawaii Department of Health cannot be taken on its face or that Obama and Factcheck conspired to present a fraudulent image.
what obama does or doesn’t do, whether he complains or doesn’t and if he feels injured or not does not change the law. if i get pulled over for speeding can my defense be no one was hurt and no one complained ?
it’s been rumored nc1 that you are a lawyer ( and a very special one at that ). is this true ? if it is would you advise a client working for the DoH to release the COLB to anyone that asks for it ?
The name of person on the COLB.
But the State of Hawaii has better things to do than break its own laws to satisfy your whims.
Here’s the complete skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
I still have the record album of Monty Python Live! At City Center.
“Pet Shop” is still the best ever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Parrot
Majority Will:
misha:
Here’s the complete skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
I still have the record album of Monty Python Live! At City Center.
My comment somehow got entered before I finished. I was just going to say that I actually saw them at City Center. I was about 10 (I have no idea why my father thought it was a good idea to bring a 10 year old to see them, but he was right), and I got Graham Chapman to sign my Playbill. Had I not been 10, I would have kept it.
The speeding ticket is not a good analogy. The law has already been broken and that was the reason for the trafic stop.
I am not a lawyer. You don’t need to be one to understand the purpose of the UIPA law and its application.
In Obama’s case – his lawyers have acknowledged to the court that he published a COLB on the web site (FactCheck) – making the information public. The UIPA law restricts the release of documents for privacy protection. When there is no privacy to be protected and there is a legitimate public interest the DoH can release the document. No law is broken, there is no injured party.
It is a different scenario when an ordinary citizen’s COLB is requested by a third party.
In that case the DoH cannot release the COLB to somebody else just based on a request, because they have to protect private data.
Actually this is the case with Obama’s original birth certificate – the DoH cannot release it without his consent.
The DoH could release his COLB because Obama already made a consent by publicly acknowledging the information posted on the web.
The fact that DoH refuses to relase the COLB tells me that it would be different from information Obama presented to the public.There is no other logical explanation.
There is nothing in the Statute about consent. Even if Obama signed a consent form explicitly allowing release of the record, they still couldn’t give anyone a Certified copy of his birth certificate to anyone who did not have a tangible interest in the record.
“There is no other logical explanation.”
There is for sane people.
The key point in your post is that DoH would issue such letter only when the person gives the permission. When an applicant is looking for a job it is reasonable to assume that they would consent to such letter being issued by the DoH. There is no such luck in Obama’s case.
However, we are talking about the purpose of the birth index data. It has no meaning if it contains only a name. There is no logical reason to ignore the request for birth index data when requestor submits both name and the registration number.
The key word in your statement is “Certified”.
They could issue a non-certified copy of Obama’s COLB.
From dear Ole NC1
BS, Utter BS and more BS with extra BS sauce on top.
It is a monstrous pain in the butt for a “regular” non US citizen to get US clearance but if, for example you have an existing NATO Cosmic clearance you can and not infrequently are given access to TS or even TS/SCI material if relevant to the work yiu will be undertaking.
As a further example If the information is classed as RELGBR it will be releaseable or workable by UK cleared individuals so long as their local clearance level is appropriate.
It’s a pain, has to jump through more hoops but it does occur and this is at the worker bee level as well as at the intellgence officer level
As a real world example, the composite armor of the M1 Abrams tank was actually the British Chobham armor. When the requirement to build, test, handover and use the armor was made, a substantial contingent of British experts, civilian and military were in the US. They required clearance as they were working directly on all parts of the M1 tank, parts of which had, at the time a high security classification. Ergo they had clearance in the US in defense roles, as contractors and secondee’s, as non US citizens…..
Please, do try and not babble at things you have no idea about, there’s a good muppet.
If the certification number is not part of the index data – how do they sort records in the database? You have to have a unique key for each record in the database.
The only unique identifier in the Hawaii DoH database is the registation number. A refusal to provide the answer when the request for index includes the registration number is ridiculous. I used the name Joe Smith to illustrate how ridiculous that position is.
They have to have rules that make sense for any name – not just a name that could be unique.
You know very well that the purpose of the request for Obama’s index data is the verification of the registration number 10641 shown in the COLB published on FactCheck. How do we know that the number really belongs to him? It was blacked out on the first COLB – and it took his campaign two months to come up with a better version of the COLB document.
Which they already HAVE done:
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html
You are arguing with yourself. I never mentioned anything about non-US citizens being prohibited from the work in the defense industry.
There are many jobs in the USA that require US citizenship. As an engineer who occasionally look through Job Opening announcements I frequently see this requirement.
It is obvious that you are not interested in a meaningful dialog but trying to attack me.
The number was verified later and when pictures of the same document were released it finally showed the registration number, which was close to the registration numbers for twins born in the same hospital around the same time.
Coincidence? ….
As to the index data, check out HRS 338-18(d)
Not really. Other than the Index data, they do not have the right to release such data.
HRS 338-18
That’s the only data they can present, the index data…
Correct…
The certificate number was most likely stolen from another individual ( a baby born between August 5 – 11). I learned that Kapiolani Hospital sent their birth registrations to DoH on weekly basis (on Fridays). Therefore, Obama’s birth registration should have been filed on August 11 not August 8.
Grandma filed the birth registration on August 8, but it could not be immediately completed – baby and the mother were outside the country at the time.
His birth registation records have been amended – the COLB presented by the FactCheck is a forgery.
Snopes had an article in April 2008 that said the following:
“Obama is not a legitimate U.S. Citizen. He has Citizenship established in Kenya, where he is recorded as an Arab-American”
Where does the law say that the release of a non-certified copy is prohibited?
With good reason.
Links please, or I will not believe you. I can’t find anything like this.
And your evidence is…?
So Hawaii says Obama is born in Hawaii, yet it knows that he’s using someone else’s certificate number, which would indicate that he really wasn’t born in Hawaii (despite Hawaii saying Obama was born in Hawaii)?
You and Sven should go bowling; the fantasies the two of you could spin….
So grandmother went to register a birth without proof of evidence that either the mother or child existed? How, exactly, does that work?
What part of the law that requires the parents to file the certificate for an unattended birth do you refuse to understand?
When you get it, be sure and give us a look.
Did you even read the linked HRS text?
No evidence of that either…
The key phrase is “and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public”.
The law does not prevent the relase of registration number even a date of birth – it leaves it at the discretion of the DoH director – Dr. Fukino.
The spirit of the UIPA law is to provide the access to government records when there is a compelling public interest. There is no question that there is a legitimate public interest in this case.
Whose privacy would have been violated if the registration number was released to the public? It is a number used in records administration within the DoH. There is no logical reason for preventing its release to the public.
Prior to the UIPA law adoption (1988) the date of birth and the registration number were part of the index data. Dr. Fukino is denying access to the data that used to be in public domain.
She is covering for Obama. The registration number shown on his COLB does not belong to him. Just think about the first COLB shown to the public. The number was blacked out. The official explanation is that the campaign was not sure about its significance and they decided to hide it. According to the official story they were in the possession of that document from June 6, 2007 until June 12, 2008 (when the image was published on Daily Kos).
If the official story were true the campaign had plenty of time to check with the DoH whether the registration number had any significance or not. Keep in mind that the document states that any alteration invalidates the document.
It is obvious that the offical story does not add up. They did not have the registration number available at the time when the image was posted on Daily Kos. That is why the campaign had to wait for two months to produce a better version despite the fact that public comments on Daily Kos indicated various problems with the image. If they had the original COLB at hand they could have produced a good quality scan of a non-modified COLB shortly afterwards instead of a two months delay.
The key point is that there is nothing in the regulation or the Statute requiring permission for the verification letter.
Which planet do you come from, do tell.
You make a patemtly untrue statement unsupported by facts
You are rebutted with facts and examples
In your mind this means I am arguing against myself and therefore in support of your statements.
Pray tell just how delusuional are you..?
I await your retraction of your statemnet on clearance with avidity
Unless of course you’re going to pull a Yguy……?
No evidence of that either as it shows the requisite raised seal, the signature and all the relevant data has been confirmed by the Department of Health of Hawaii.
Imagination is no substitute for facts my friend.
PS: An amended document would show evidence of such. But I guess you are not constrained by logic or reason
It’s not an article, it’s a posting on a forum filed under urban legends…
Do you even research before you post your nonsense?
So you’re not convinced that the Certification of Live Birth inspected by Factcheck was actually issued by the Hawaii Department of Health, but you will be content with a record that fails to even purport to be genuine?
There is no legitimate public interest here as 71 lost cases have shown so far. Furthermore, the UIPA law does not provide access to any and all data, and HRS 338-18 provides the rules by which interested parties may gain access to private date concerning birth records
So far I fail to see any logic or reason in NC1’s claims.
1. The document number, which shows up on the actual photographs is within the range of documents granted to children born on the same hospital in the same date range as President Obama.
2. Now the argument has become that the number must have been stolen from another certificate without ANY supporting evidence.
3. Every single relevant aspect of the COLB has been verified by the Department of Health of Hawaii, especially the location of his birth.
anything else is just imaginative speculation while lacking in factual and evidentiary support.
So there’s someone else out there with the same registration number, they know it, Hawaii knows it, and no one has said nothing?
I keep forgetting on which days you allege (without evidence) that grandmom was a fraudster, on which days you allege (again, without evidence) that Hawaii’s in on it, and which days you allege (still no evidence) both at the same time.
It is clear that already in 1988, Hawaii was aware of President Obama running for President and was covering up. Has it occurred to you that UIPA
HRS 92F-2
Se HRS 338-18 as to why birth records are considered to be an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.
Combined with
HRS 92F-11
HRS 92F-13 describes documents excempted
Dr. Fukino based her statements about Obama’s Hawaii birth using “vital records”. That does not exclude an amended birth certificate, does it?
The DoH has been asked to release Obama’s UIPA request to amend his birth certificate and any records including payment receipts for such transaction.
The request was denied without using the qualifier “if any” which they use when the disclosure of existence of a particular document actually discloses private information.
Let me clarify – when the request was made for Obama’s amended birth certificate itself the response from DoH was to deny access to such record if any. Therefore they did not confirm its existence because person asking for the record was not entitled to it.
The DoH response to a request for Obama’s UIPA request to amend his birth certificate was not the same – the DoH did not use the “if any” in their response. The law prescribes how to respond to UIPA requests – if the record did not exist the proper response was to say so. This explanation comes from lawyers in the OIP office – their job is to assist public when dealing with the UIPA law requests.
By denying the access to a document without using the “if any” the DoH implicitly confirmed its existence.
We can conclude that Obama submitted a request to amend his birth certificate. Why would he do that – was he not born in the Kapiolani Hospital?
The COLB image shown to the public is a forgery.
No evidence to support this, “if any”
🙂
Read Fukino’s response and it becomes obvious why an ‘if any’ was not relevant
It’s a generic statement about birth records.
you’ve already stated that you believe obama’s grandmother and some unknown charlatan from the state falsified obama’s birth registration. what need would there be for an amendment ?
You failed to explain the relationship between a registration number disclosure and a privacy violation. The law leaves it at Dr. Fukino’s discretion to release more index data than just the name and the vital event.
The registration number does not disclose any private data. There is no logical reason for hiding it – quite the opposite. I have provided an example that a request for index data for a person with a common name is meaningless under the interpretation of the law by Dr. Fukino. It defies a common sense.
That is the explanation given by OIP lawyers. It is their job to assist public in using the UIPA law to obtain government records.
And yet, that is how index data is made available. Weird how the facts against appear to run counter to your claims.
As to Fukino being able to define what is index data, do you really believe that she would redefine her position just because someone is interested to find out more about President Obama.
As to the privacy violation, the Hawaiian law is clear, other than index data, which is defined by Fukino, and was, according to you in 1988 reduced to not include the document number, you and others have no reasonable interest that outweighs any privacy concerns.
You may not believe that releasing the document number is an invasion of privacy and yet, the Department of Health, after initially verifying that the document appeared to be real, had to revise its comments based on privacy laws.
I was referring to your claim that the COLB was a fraud. As to the ‘if any’, it is clear from Fukino’s response that it was a generic statement about access to birth record data. No ‘if any’ needed.
Again what does the certificate number matter if there is only one Barack Hussein Obama who has been born in Hawaii. There isn’t much to cross reference, you have a COLB, you have the index data. You can logically connect the two. It didn’t take two months to come up with a better version. It took someone offering to actually show up as a nonbiased witness when others didn’t.
That birth records exist was something self evident, given the birth announcement and index data so again no “if any” was necessary. As to the claims about access to additional birth certificate data, it was sufficient to point out that such access, like access to the official birth certificate is prohibited by law. The response does not disclose the existence of any amended certificates, it just ignores the request as part of a policy statement on birth certificate data.
The context is what matters here.
And it also doesn’t exclude marriage or death certificates, does it? Supposition and speculation is not evidence.
The point of the UIPA is to not disclose when disclosure is not allowed, and that would include informative denials. Only in birfistan is a denial really a winking yes.
I did not say that any state offical was involved in the fraudulent birth registration in 1961. I believe that grandmother tried to register Obama’s birth as an unattended birth in Hawaii even though he was born outside the country. That was the meaning of the fraudulent unattended birth comment.
Just the other day I read about Kapiolani sending birth certificates weekly (on Fridays) to DoH. That makes it clear that the filing date (August 8, 1961) is very suspicious for somebody claiming the Kapiolani birth. That date indicates that registration did not come from the Kapiolani hospital.
At this point I don’t have any idea what could have been amended on his birth certificate.
You believe this despite the lack of evidence, and the lack of explanation how a child’s birth could be registered without the parent?
And what reliable source was that?
With your established record of accuracy, I would suggest you post us a link to the evidence that this is how Kapiolani worked.
How do we independently verify that the registration number 10641 really belongs to Obama? So far the only source is the FactCheck image.
The DoH refusal to provide the birth index data when that registration number was part of the request is suspicious.
How do we know that Obama’s real registration number is not 11808?
Yes indeed, this appears on the Snopes forum.
Not at all, the registration number is not part of index data that is released.
So far I have typed in some of the registration dates for Hawaiian Birth Certificates and they all show registration on Friday. So there is something to be said for this suggestion. If they were forwarded on friday and registered on friday, they must have been sent in Friday morning.
Obama was born friday evening 7:24PM and his birth was registered on tuesday the 8th.
There is some evidence to support NC1’s claim, of course, the dataset is too small. What if such certificates were send twice a week? Tue and Friday.
Let me check
Nordyke was not signed until the 11th (friday) and filed that day
Edith Costa Friday born, filed tuesday
Alan Boote, born Tuesday, filed friday
So far nothing conclusive and my idea of filing twice a week, once after the weekend and once before, makes sense.
Another, born monday, signed wednesday, filed friday
The UIPA law leaves the decision whether to include the registration number as part of the birth index data to the director of DoH. Dr Fukino could release this number if she wanted to.
The question is – what logical reason is there to prevent the release of the registration number. There is none. Actually the opposite is true – not releasing the information makes the birth index meaningless.
I asked this question previously on this thread. I am yet to hear a logical reason that would support hiding of this number from the public.
Check the date for the Kapiolani birth that was not filed on Friday. Was the Friday when the data was supposed to be sent a national holiday? How about the following Friday – was it the holiday too?
Because it’s worth making you miserable.
Obama’s birth fairy tale is what’s impossible.
I agree. It’s possible he was born in a manger on Mars.
Thanks for the link.
It is interesting that Snopes started this story without providing any reference where it came from. You are much more likely to receive an answer from them – could you ask for the source?
Speaking of fairy tales . . .
Where’s your training and credentials in forensic science and forensic document examination?
The source for an urban myth? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha[gasp]hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha[gasp]
The same place where Orly Taitz got her law “degree.”
Not at all: It prove Obama was, in fact, born in Hawaii.
As to why the DoH doesn’t exercise its discretion and release more information: (1) Much better things to do; and (2) birfer track record of never being satisfied.
Not really. Taft Law school is real (an online institution not accredited by the American Bar Association) and she passed the California bar examination in 2002.
There are, more than likely, competent, sane attorneys with degrees from Taft. She’s just not one of them.
So lets see you say that you have a problem because there wasn’t a registration number now you’re complaining because there was a registration number. What does it matter to you what the number is? The document was released by Hawaii and is a legal document. Keep spinning your wheels
The number isn’t random, it has information in it. If you had a few COLBs from different years, you might be able to figure out when someone was born if you had their name and reg #. Since it has no function outside the DOH, that’s infomation that shouldn’t be given out. I wouldn’t want my neighbors going in and figuring out the year I was born.
What do you call a couple who were taught abstinence only?
Parents.
Instead of spinning my words could you answer a simple question: How do we independently confirm that the registration number 10641 belongs to Obama?
How do you know that the document presented by the FactCheck is not a forgery?
You have to trust Obama’s word.
I would rater verify whether he told the truth. There is no independent confirmation of the registration number. It is very likely that the number 10641 was not present in the original image from June 2008.
The DoH refused to confirm that they issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. They have been asked this question several times and refused to answer it.
If they answered it confirming the official story, who could have complained about it – who would have the injury to file a lawsuit against the DoH – nobody. There is no logical reason for DoH to refuse the confirmation of issuing the COLB to Obama – if the official story were true.
The only scenario that fits their behavior is the one where the DoH officials know that the COLB presented to the public is a forgery and they keep being silent about it.
Stay up tonight. A flying saucer will land on your roof.
Lets just question everything then right? That’s essentially what you’re saying. You complain when you can’t see the number, you complain when you can. Now why don’t we just say how do we know its the real Janice Okubo who released statements verifying that Obama was born in Hawaii? It could easily have been a doppleganger! How do we know it was really factcheck that posted it? It could have been someone spoofing their website. How do we know that we’re really writing to each other? We could all live in the Matrix. See how ridiculous your arguments are and how dangerously paranoid. Don’t you think if anyone posted a forgery that DOH wouldn’t have jumped on it? Privacy laws at that point would be null and void if it was a forgery. DOH wouldn’t release statements saying they verified the records on file and Obama was born in Hawaii if it was a forgery. What would be the point of a forgery?
They have confirmed the information several times but you choose to ignore it each and every time.
No, she doesn’t. And she never will. Her motivation is sickening and obvious.
It has the requisite raised seal, the data is confirmed by the DOH where it matters and it is signed.
What more do you need?
Actually they confirmed it before they realized that per their own privacy laws they could not comment on it.
Do you not believe in government following the rules of law?
There is a much better scenario but that’s one you refuse to consider.
That’s exactly what it is. Remember Woodward and Bernstein? Dozens of reporters want to be next. Yet they’re all part of the cover-up. Yeah, right.
How is his registration number relevant to anything? Where in the Constitution does it say that Presidents must publish their birth certificate registration number?
The head of the Department of Health in Hawaii says that state records show that Obama was born in Hawaii. The Governor of the state of Hawaii says that state records show that Obama was born in Hawaii. They’ve published the index data.
That’s all anyone needs to know.
You’ve just invented a red herring of a certificate number, and you would invent similar specious arguments over any other document that could be produced.
Lose sleep about it, please.
And with any luck nbc1, ace detective and habitual deceiver, it will beam you away…far, far away…
so your body can join your mind.
The only scenario that explains YOUR behavior has you wearing a hood and burning crosses.
See nbc1, this is a perfect example of your deception.
Snope’s posting quotes “an article out today.” Yes, snopes didn’t put the article itself in quotation marks, but honest people, as well as people with a brain larger than a rice krispie, can easily tell that snopes is quoting “an article out today.”
But you deceive. You pretend, just like PooPooPolarik, that snopes is the one who said “Obama blah blah blah” Perhaps you are DrKate, or some other totally bonkers nutcase, or perhaps you are TexasDarlin, a devious wench…I dunno, but you are evil.
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=29227
Here is the link to the snopes post. Every single poster in the thread ridicules the “article out today” that snopes posts about – even snopes! And it is posted under the main heading “Urban Legends.”
You do know what an urban legend is, don’t you? Of course, but you ignore that part too, and come here and post crapola that you know is crapola, because you are crapola.
Like I said, you are evil.
Maybe in the part of the article where they are describing the lunatic myth they are debunking. Certainly not in the conclusion.
Birthers and other whackjobs like Sovereignists like to do this trick when reading court rulings too. They cut and paste for their argument the part of the ruling where the judge is describing the petitioner’s claims, and ignore the part of the ruling where the judge repudiates those claims.
Snopes didn’t start the ‘story’. Some anonymous poster started a thread on their forum.
Just because YOU post here a libelous assertion that Obama’s grandmother committed fraud doesn’t mean that the Doc started the story.
What a ridiculous load of manure.
There is no point debating you. We are going in circles. You are not going to change your opinion. At the same time you have not provided a reasonable explanation that would cause me to change my opinion. If you had a logical explanation on why is it OK for DoH to ignore requests for registration number confirmation or why they could not confirm that the COLB was indeed issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 post it as a response, otherwise I am not going to engage in endless debate.
NC1 can rest assured that he/she cannot be successfully sued for libel for his/her unfounded allegations of criminal wrongdoing by Obama’s grandmother. Defamatory statements have to be made against a living person to give rise to a claim for libel or slander.
NC1 could also go and dance on the grave of Obama’s grandmother, provided that he/she does not trespass.
Sure, FactCheck verified it.
The story was posted by the person using the name SNOPES – is this not the blog owner?
It seems that you got the picture all wrong. The problem isn’t Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) rebuttals, but your arguments. You have provided absolutely nothing to support your arguments.
Talk about “going in circles,” you seem fixated on things that don’t support your argument.
There is absolutely nothing that will change your opinion. You have been repeatably shown to be wrong for almost 2 years now. However, you keep on returning to those same debunked arguments.
You state that the Department of Health didn’t “confirm that the COLB was indeed issued … on June 6, 2007.” It is not logical to place the date of issuance of a copy of a document over the existence of the original document. The state of Hawaii has confirmed that they are in possession of the original document. The fact is more important than the date of issuance, as another copy can be issued again.
The only thing that might change is your deep hatred for Obama, but even that I doubt will change.
There are people who do actual genuine research and check their facts. Let us repeat slowly.
—–
The
state
of
Hawaii
has
confirmed
they
have
Obama’s
original
birth
certificate.
——–
End of story.
I expect you are right on that. I misread the link and made a mistake.
See how easy that is? It only takes seven keystrokes to admit one’s shortcomings.
So Snopes was bringing the story up to bring it to the attention of his/her readers for comment, and not endorsing it in any way. How does that fact further your argument?
Two years ago at this time I was enjoying my Mediterranean vacation blissfully unaware of the eligibility issue.
You have no idea about the content of the Obama’s original birth certificate. You only assume that it came from the Kapiolani hospital. The first press-release issued by Dr. Fukino says nothing about the Hawaii birth being confirmed by the original birth certificate. In her second press-release she said that “vital records” show that Obama was born in the Hawaii.
Nothing she said eliminates the possibility that she used an Amended birth certificate as a source for her statement. We simply don’t know for sure.
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the official birthplace story is a fabrication. I am not going to repeat all of those because I have done it many times already.
The reason I am emphasizing the confirmation of the COLB being issued to Obama on June 6, 2007 is simple – this document is the ONLY tangible piece of evidence mentioning Obama’s birthplace. The basic test whether it represents a legitimate document or a forgery is the question to DoH whether they issued it on that particular date.
It puzzles me that there is no answer to such a trivial question – WTF?
There is no logical explanation for both Obama’s refusal to release the birth certificate and for DoH to avoid providing the data that should have been released to the public upon request if the official birthplace story were true.
If you don’t look into the COLB issue in isolation – the SSA number from CT does not make any sense for a person born and residing in Hawaii without any known residency in Connecticut. We could go on and on about other circumstantial evidence pointing out that the official birthplace story is highly suspicious.
Unless there is a new data available to the public I am done debating the COLB authenticity with regular Obots on this blog. I learned that you have no explanation for the DoH behavior and it speaks volumes to me.
What is the content of the original document: was it submitted by the grandmother or the Kapiolani hospital?
The File date does not match the registration number shown on the COLB for birth registration to have been filed by the Kapiolani hospital (registrations sent weekly on Fridays to DoH).
Thanks to the Nordyke long form birth certificates we have an excellent reference point to judge Obama’s COLB data. The official birthplace story does not add up.
Obama could have ended the birthplace debate at any point during the last two years – he only needs to release the original birth certificate that is in line with the official birthplace story. It is so simple to do, yet he refused it.
Yes, and yes. They said that the found the story on the Internet. It’s what they do. They also debunk and confirm stories on the Internet after they research them. This was a very early version of the story (pre Berg). Subsequently Snopes has published many article debunking that and other fanciful claims about Obama’s eligibility.
It wasn’t an article at all. Snopes has articles where they present some Internet rumor or fanciful claim and then describe their research and then conclude the veracity of the story.
This was a forum posting describing a new rumor. They wrote: Comment: “Today, we have a new matter before us. There is an article out today on the internet that says…”
It would be utterly crazy for anyone to assert that Snopes is lending any credibility to this claim in such a context.
By the way, I wrote about this Snopes forum comment back in February of 2009.
If it is only an urban myth – it does not further my argument. I was curious who originated the story. I did not look around the Snopes web site – just clicked on the link submitted by Dr. C and started reading the post without looking above the original post.
I have a question about Snopes: They posted a story about Queen’s hospital being Obama’s birthplace and changed it last year to Kapiolani. This happened several months after the inauguration. It is interesting that no Obama supporter alerted them to correct the “error” for such a long time. Only after the WND started asking questions about authenticity of Obama’s letter to Kapiolani, did the Snopes change their story.
How do you explain the fact that they did not know what the offical story about the birth hospital was, almost a year after the first eligibility lawsuit was filed? This was one of the web sites dedicated to debunking myths about Obama – was it not?
The claims about the grandmother reporting the birth have addressed. The law of the time would have required that a parent report an unattended birth or, where it was impossible, for the registrar to look into the matter and complete the registration form themselves. You still have not explained how the grandmother would explain away the absence of any baby or parent.
Again, this has been addressed. The certificate number was assigned at the end of processing, after the paperwork had been filed with the Hawaii Department of Health. The processing of all certificates in the exact order of receipt would require investment of additional resources to prevent disruption to the order. What would be the point of having such a system? Is there any harm if a registration is processed otherwise than the order in which it was received?
You presuppose that the Hawaii Department of Health still issues certified photocopies of the original certificate. My understanding is that they have said that they do not. What evidence do you have that they do in fact issue certified photocopies?
I attempted to track down where the “born in Kenya” story came from without any definitive success. I discussed my journey in a pair of articles from February of 2009:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/where-did-born-in-africa-start-part-1/
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/where-did-born-in-africa-start-part-2/
There really isn’t much “official” about the story of the hospital where Barack Obama was born. The Hawaii Advertiser attributes the location to “family sources.” That makes sense when the original newspaper announcements do not say, and the hospitals will not comment.
It appears that the original mistake in the name of the hospital came from a high school newspaper article. “The Rainbow Edition”, a school paper in Hawaii, interviewed Obama’s younger half-sister Maya Soetoro-Ng (herself born in Indonesia) and wrote (not quoting Maya) that the President was born at Queens hospital. (Of course Maya had no reason to know the hospital).
The confusion over hospitals stems from the lack of official sources. The closest thing we have to an official source is Barack Obama himself, in his congratulatory letter to Kapi’olani on the occasion of their 100th anniversary.
The important thing when considering contradictory reports of an event is where the information comes from. None of the reports (some later corrected) that Barack Obama was born at Queens hospital say where the information comes from, and lacking a knowledgeable source, they mean nothing. Also, since Kapi’olani was Queen of Hawaii, it is quite possible that this is the genesis of the confusion with Queen’s Hospital (named for a different queen).
What I find fascinating is that from a discussion over whether it was Queens or Kapi’olani, comes the conclusion that Barack Obama wasn’t born in a hospital at all.
The document already contains a signature and seal to confirm that it was issued on June 6, 2007. If the certification on a public document itself is not sufficient to establish its authenticity, then what is the point in issuing a new certification that can be subject to the same allegation of forgery? (The one case where a further certification of a birth record would be necessary is where it needs to be authenicated for use abroad. This requires the further certification of the Hawaii Secretary of State.)
It is definitely possible to obtain a Social Security Number that corresponds to a state other than the state of birth. It was definitely not necessary (or even customary) in 1961 to apply for an SSN immediately after birth. For this reason, the SSN is pretty much irrelevant to Obama’s place of birth. (People who know where I was born and raised would be surprised to know my SSN prefix. It corresponds with the place where my family moved a couple years after I was born, even though we lived there very briefly.)
I have heard assertions that Obama’s SSN was issued in the mid-1970s. However, in the absence of being told the basis for this belief, I assume that it may well have been issued before or after 1973. If it was issued in 1973, then the SSN was a function of the office where the card was issued, which does not necessarily correspond with the place where the person lived. If it was issued after 1973, it was a function of the mailing address on the application.
One possibility is that Obama’s SSN application was submitted in a Connecticut office by either parent during a trip when Obama visited his father in Massachusetts. My point is not that this is the case or a possibility that needs to be disproven, but rather that the place of issuance of an SSN is not a reliable indicator of place of birth.
Let me help save some time.
Naturalized citizen’s (NC1) response . . .
“But . . . .”
(repeat ad infinitum)
She doesn’t want the truth.
You still seem to be confused. If the information on the copy of the original document is different that the original document then it is invalid. Also, the state of Hawaii has the legal right seek litigation to rectify the fact that they were harmed.
Are you suggesting that two college students will flight from around the world just for the pregnant wife to visit her mother-in-law. When the trip could have taken several days. Even a flight to the continental US wouldn’t make sense.
The Nordyke twin’s birth certificate support nothing in your arguments. All it does is give valid reason why the move to computerized records are adventitious over paper and pencil records.
What you seem to not understand. First of all there is no debate. Most people accept the Obama is a natural born citizen just by the fact that he was born in one of the 50 states. His birth certificate confirms this fact. Actually, the fact that he was able to run as president or vice-president is the strongest fact.
At one point your doubts would have been valid enough to debate the facts. However, every law has been reviewed and they only re-enforce Obama’s natural born citizen status. The state of Hawaii has even had to explicitly state that Obama is a natural born citizen. So, on the issue of doubt you have nothing.
All you have are what if’s and maybe’s.
The ranges of numbers issued within a time period is known, and indeed the Obama SSN comes from the 1970’s. You can look up “042-68” at http://stevemorse.org/ssn/ssn.html and it will return Connecticut, 1976-1977 which corresponds to what is reported as Obama’s first job at Baskin-Robbins.
The problem with all of this discussion is the birther contention that anything about Obama which cannot be proved to be exactly as expected is evidence that he was born in Kenya.
Yeah, I spotted that after my first comment.
In fact it makes MUCH sense that they would alphabetize the batch by last name. It’s a manual system don’t forget. Paper files getting passed around the office from one desk to another, maybe two or more clerks involved in indexing the record, another set of clerks verifying all the data fields are filled in and summarized for the Feds, etc. During this process, if somebody has a query about the records, they have to find whose desk it is on and that would be by name. In this scenario Nordyke would then come before Obama.
The only volume-speaking behavior is your own.
You expect a government agency to break its own laws, or otherwise act completely to your whims, as if it has nothing better to do, or other policies in play.
Your beliefs are based on nothing but speculation; you have no evidence.
You repeatedly say, “the only logical conclusion is….” when your doing so violates Occam’s Razor by ignoring the most obvious conclusion.
You engage in class goalpost shifting: Each piece of evidence is insufficient, and thus you require something more.
Your intense skepticism is limited only to Obama, yet you seem unconcerned that you’ve never seen Bush’s birth certificate, know his certificate number, the name of the doctor who (allegedly) delivered him, etc.
Because the law prohibits them from doing so.
See the following table
OK, I’ve found the revision history for the passport law — It’s title 22 US Code, section 217a — which currently provides that a passport is good for 10 years.
Here is the revision history — I have bolded the parts that would impact renewal periods in the 60’s:
AMENDMENTS
1982 – Pub. L. 97-241 substituted provision that a passport be
valid for a period of ten years from issuance and that the
Secretary of State could limit the period to less than ten years in
an individual case or on a general basis by regulation for
provision that a passport be limited to a period of not more than
five years, that the Secretary of State could limit the passport to
a shorter period, and that a valid passport outstanding as of the
effective date of Pub. L. 90-428 be valid for a period of five
years from the date of issue, except where such passport was
limited to a shorter period by the Secretary.
1968 – Pub. L. 90-428 substituted provisions that passport be
limited to a period of not more than five years, though the
Secretary of State may limit it to a shorter period and provisions
as to the length of validity of passports outstanding as of the
effective date of Pub. L. 90-428 for provisions that a passport or
passport visa be limited to a period of three years, that a
passport be renewed pursuant to regulations of the Secretary for a
period not to exceed two years, provided that the final date of
expiration not be more than five years from the original date of
issue, that the Secretary be authorized to limit the validity of a
passport, passport visa, or period of renewal of a passport to less
than two years, and that the charge for the issue of an original
passport be $9.00 and the charge for the renewal be $5.00.
1959 – Pub. L. 86-267 substituted “three years” for “two years”,
and “five years” for “four years”.
1932 – Act May 16, 1932, among other changes, increased payment
for renewals from $2 to $5, for issue of original passport from $5
to $9, and restored final expiration date of renewal passport to
four years from six-year period.
1930 – Act July 1, 1930, among other changes, provided for $2
payment for renewal of passport, $5 payment for issue of an
original passport, and changed from four to six years the final
expiration date of renewal passport.
Reference: http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/22C4.txt
So basically, prior to 1959, it looks like a passport was good for 2 years but could be renewed (extended) for up to 4 years.
From 1959 -1968, a passport was generally good for 3 years, but could be renewed (extended) for up to 5 years.
From 1968-1982, a passport was good for 5 years — if someone had a previously issued 3-year passport, they could get +2 year extension — which is what Stanley Ann did in 1968, when she got her 1965-issued passport extended through 1970.
After 1982, passports were good for 10 years.
So nothing in the documentation excludes the possibility that Stanley Ann had a previously issued passport — but the earliest passport that we have documentation for is one that was issued in 1965.
There’s no denying that George and his clan are all bushbabies.
You need to check your timeline. In 1977-1979 his father was in Kenya. His mother was living in Indonesia and he was living in Hawaii with his grandparents. There is no source indicating that Obama has ever been a resident of Connecticut
There is quite a distance between Hawaii and Connecticut – why would a high school kid apply for a SSN number in a state so far away from Honolulu when he could have applied in the local office – assuming that he had been eligible to apply.
However, if he had not been eligible to apply for a legitimate SSN number and obtained one later on in life through fraud – that would explain the known facts.
The earliest reports of him using this SSN number are from 1986. If he obtained a number legitimately in 1970’s you would expect that the number would have been used earlier than 1986.
The SSN number indicates that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.
“However, if he had not been eligible to apply for a legitimate SSN number and obtained one later on in life through fraud – that would explain the known facts.”
Except none of the known ‘facts’ indicate that there was ever any fraud.
“The SSN number indicates that the official birthplace story is a fabrication.”
No. You have yet to link any relationship to a SS number and a birthplace. It really very simple- if you are convinced that there was fraud, find actual evidence, rather than your imagination.
1. The purpose of the UIPA law is to provide transparency in government by allowing access to government records while restricting access in some cases to protect privacy.
Whose privacy would have been violated if DoH confirmed that Obama’s COLB was indeed issued by that office on June 6, 2007?
Whose privacy would have been violated if DoH confirmed that registration number 10641 belonged to Obama?
Keep in mind that Obama’s lawyers have already submitted a statement to the court confirming that Obama stands behind the images posted on FactCheck.
2. Could you point to any source reporting about Bush being born in a foreign country?
We know that the birther movement was started by liberals challenging McCain’s eligibility.
If there had been any doubts about Bush being born in the USA they would have challenged him about it. Could you imagine Dan Rather and his ilk passing on such an opportunity?
Could you read my previous post again and then provide a logical explanation how Obama got a SSN number from Connecticut?
Make sure that your explanation fits available facts (family members residencies at that time).
It’s very, very simple. Just substitute the initial ‘9’ in his Honolulu Zip Code with a ‘0’ & you get a city in CT. It’s called a typo.
Sure, he worked for Baskin Robbins as one of his first summer jobs and he had to apply for a SSN which was sent to headquarters to be returned to Barack.
So many possible explanations and nothing to suggest any fraud.
Poor poor nc1.
The post office won’t forward correspondence with an incorrect zip cope from the Soc Sec Admin because it could be fraud.
And the Soc Sec Admin wouldn’t process an application from Hawaii with a Connecticut zip. For all they know, the zip code is correct and Honolulu, HI is incorrect. The applicant would have to make a correction.
Obama would have a Soc Sec Number from HI if he hadn’t had a Refugee Assistance Organization file the paperwork on his behalf.
1. Baskin-Robins filed SSN applications for their temporary employees?
I thought that individuals were responsible for applying for their SSN – I had to do it myself at the time.
2. Why is it that the number has not been reported as used by Obama unitl 1986? Did he go through college without taking any loans or working any jobs?
Where did you get the information that a refugee assistence organization filed paperworks on his behalf? Which organization was involved?
Why would it be necessary for an alleged US citizen and resident of Hawaii to have any organization file SSN paperwork for him. Your explanation does not make much sense.
There is insufficient information to conclude anything relating to the issuance of a passport prior to 1965. There is no reliable information that even suggests that a passport was issued to her before 1965.
If you’ll look through Allen’s FOIA documents, you’ll see there is a great deal of correspondence between INS and Lolo and Stanley Ann. It seems Lolo was on a full scholorship ride (books, tuition, housing, allowance and food).
Lolo’s problems began when file a tax return with the IRS as an Non-Resident Alien when he should have filed as a Permanent Resident Alien. Lolo explained “a friend at the bank” helped him file the return and he did mean to make a mistake. His mistake got him deported because his tax filing indicated he was abandoning his Permanent Resident status.
These mistakes are common for legal aliens in America. Consequently, NGOs (non-governmental organizations) frequently contract with the State Department to assist Legal Aliens with their legal paperwork, assimilation, language training, etc.
There are many NGOs. I do not know the NGO that assisted Obama with his Soc Sec application. I just know the NGO that filed Barack’s Form SS-5 was located in Connecticut.
Note the absence again of any evidence.
Do you hate our President that much that you are willing to abandon reason and logic?
Fascinating
It is hard to assess what side of the fence you are on. That is where you are a reasonable person and accept all this birther stuff as nonsense, or just an another birther. I really hope that you are not the latter.
It seems as though you can even follow your own argument. You seem to try to insert some non-relevant information, based on non-existing information into your argument.
Question how can you know and not know a fact at the same time?
Nope, Barack’s return address was Baskin Robbins headquarters, which then returned the information to him
Or the reporting is poor, but you already knew that did you not? These are public databases built from a lot of resources of doubtful reliability. Still nothing really?
And I love the moving of the goalposts? You insist on looking at absence of data while ignoring the existence of data.
Garbage In, Garbage Out my friend
SSN are reported only when the date becomes publicly. Typically ssn do not become public through a job.
Geez… Think and do some research before you complain
The Wikipedia page on Baskin-Robbins does not mention anything about a HQ in CT. Do you have some other info?
nc1: there is quite a distance between Hawaii and Connecticut.
And there is a lot more between Hawaii and Kenya!
Bummer…
As posted in another thread here:
From the Social Security Administration website:
The Area Number is assigned by the geographical region. Prior to 1972, cards were issued in local Social Security offices around the country and the Area Number represented the State in which the card was issued. This did not necessarily have to be the State where the applicant lived, since a person could apply for their card in any Social Security office. Since 1972, when SSA began assigning SSNs and issuing cards centrally from Baltimore, the area number assigned has been based on the ZIP code in the mailing address provided on the application for the original Social Security card. The applicant’s mailing address does not have to be the same as their place of residence. Thus, the Area Number does not necessarily represent the State of residence of the applicant, either prior to 1972 or since.
Note: One should not make too much of the “geographical code.” It is not meant to be any kind of useable geographical information. The numbering scheme was designed in 1936 (before computers) to make it easier for SSA to store the applications in our files in Baltimore since the files were organized by regions as well as alphabetically. It was really just a bookkeeping device for our own internal use and was never intended to be anything more than that.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/ssn/geocard.html
Or the simplest explanation: a fifty year conspiracy that spans the globe and all governments!!!!!1111!!
Other data I have found for people related to Obama appear to be limited in extent as well. Perhaps your problem is that you are relying on public datasets of unknown quality.
Sven rarely makes any sense. This is just another of his kooky sock-puppet names. He has dozens of them. He’s sort of our local village idi*t over here. He comes and posts the strangest fantasy fiction scenarios and they often make very little sense. Sven is not from the US, so his grammar and understanding of our country could be a big part of the problem. The only semi-consistent thread in his posts is his fixation on his Refugee Assistance Organization nonsense and “Form SS-5” . Hey, its his personal contribution to making up Birther stories. Its all he’s got and his only shot at getting his 15 min of fame. Sort of like the fake CA birth certificate signed by Dudley Dooright. Sven just gets frustrated because he can’t get get any traction for his fiction anywhere…not even amongst most birthers.
AB, “Barkahizeristan Misdirect” is just another one of Sven’s multiple sock-puppets. His fictional fantasies are not based on any support. They are just his own made up nonsense. He sticks to pushing it under different names over and over again, because he desperately wants his “novel ideas” to “catch-on”, but they never do, even amongst the birther community. I seriously think its nothing but his desperate attempt to glean his 15-minutes of fame. Hence, the endless sock-puppets he uses to parrot himself.
News on Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin from TPM. Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin has been “been referred to a General Court Martial.”
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/birther_army_docs_defense_charges_referred_to_cour.php
Lakin still insists that he isn’t guilty. He knowingly disobeyed order from his superiors, and still doesn’t understand the concept of a legal order.
Too bad for Lakin as it seems that The American Patriot Foundation is using him as a “cash cow.” It was The American Patriot Foundation who released the “press release by the APF.”
Your description isn’t far from nc1 and other frequent birther posters as well.
The only redeemimng quality of Sven/NC1/Wibble is that at least he has the tenacity to continue to hang out and amuse (slightly)…..unlike everyones old favourite Birfer muppet, good ole LieGuy……8-)
The truth shall set you free…
Salon: This Modern World
There really isn’t that much to distinuish between birthers. They all just parrot each other and seem incapable of original thought. Hence why they easily become too predictable and tiresome and why they can only “thrive” on their safe little censored boards and cocoon themselves in their silly little fantasy world and pretend that the big, scary dark-skinned democrat with the foreign sounding name isn’t real.
However, Sven is the only one I know that endlessly fantasizes about Form SS-5 and Refugee Assistance Organization nonsense. That seems to be his little attempt to add to the birther mythos (albeit with very little success even amongst the birther stooges).
This is the dream of the birther movement….
“Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) officially supports a review of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which grants children of undocumented immigrants status as U.S. citizens, his office confirmed to the Huffington Post on Monday.
A spokesman said that the Kentucky Republican believes that “we should hold hearings” on the matter. McConnell had not previously commented on the issue before, the spokesman confirmed.
In offering his support, McConnell becomes the highest-ranking Republican figure to call for examining the reach of the 14th amendment. On Sunday, his chief deputy, Sen. John Kyl (R-Ariz.) told CBS’ Face the Nation that he too would back hearings into revising citizenship laws. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) — a one-time proponent of comprehensive immigration reform — has explicitly called for the 14th Amendment’s repeal.
The statements from GOP leaders give credence to the notion that revising longstanding citizenship laws is quickly becoming a plank of the party’s platform. In the House of Representatives, Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Tex.) has introduced the Birthright Citizenship Act of 2009, which would attempt to deny children of illegal immigrants U.S. citizenship through statute rather than a constitutional amendment (thereby lowering the vote threshold). He has 93 co-sponsors for that effort including Rep. Nathan Deal, the Georgia Republican who is in a runoff to be the party’s candidate for governor.
UPDATE: In an interview with The Hill, McConnell elaborates on his concerns about granting citizenship for the children of undocumented immigrants and formally calls for hearings into the matter.
“I think we ought to take a look at it — hold hearings, listen to the experts on it,” McConnell said. “I haven’t made a final decision about it, but that’s something that we clearly need to look at. Regardless of how you feel about the various aspects of immigration reform, I don’t think anybody thinks that’s something they’re comfortable with.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/02/mitch-mcconnell-wants-hea_n_667959.html
Why do these numbnuts constantly think they can legislate against unpalatable (to them) Constitutional provisions. The Constitution specifically states & SCOTUS has affirmed that the ONLY thing Congress can say on the matter is concerning naturalization. Next they’ll be wanting to legislate a value for Ï€.
Partially true….
Idiots like this COULD try and pull together the pre-requisite number or votes to try and raise a Constitutional Amendment. If it passed (extraordinarily unlikely) then it would be inherently Constitutional.
Having said that, the changes of getting 2/3rd of both houses PLUS 38 states to pass this is “optimistic” at best.
They are talking about legislation, not an amendment. Witness Smith’s “Birthright Citizenship Act”
Sef,
I wholly agree, my point was there is ONLY one way this could occur and the probability is vanishingly small……
More sedition….This time from the infamous “Dr kate”….These people have really convinced themselves that the Constitution states their “2 parents must be citizens” nonsense and all of the other garbarge they have been spewing….
“For the first time in its history, the United States government has knowingly allowed a constitutionally-ineligible individual to break into and occupy the White House. All the branches of government have been involved, along with the media: the legislative branch by failing to do its constitutional duty; the judicial branch by thwarting any attempt to have the facts heard; the Executive branch by using taxpayer funds and the color of authority to defend the usurpation.
The media, in collaboration with private unelected officials and elected officials, have ensured a blackout of news and information on this most fundamental matter to the American public. The State governments also obliged the usurpation with a collective failure to ensure the integrity of the 2008 election. In 2008, all Americans were disenfranchised as a result of this dereliction of duty, in certain cases with malice aforethought.
The natural born citizen clause of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 was written with the national security interests of the United States as its focus. In order to ensure that the President and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces was loyal ONLY to the United States, the natural born citizen clause requires the President to be born on United States soil, to two citizen parents; have 14 years residency in the United States, and be 35 years of age. Mr. Obama fails the threshold test of being born to two U.S. citizen parents, as his father was a British National and Kenyan.
The Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution reserve to the states and the people powers not enumerated to the government; and the Declaration of Independence requires that to be true to liberty, forms of government in contradiction to it must be altered or abolished. If the current federal government will not protect the states and the people, it is our duty to create a federal government that can.”
So now here is the ptich by Dr Kate to the idiotic birthers….
“Americans across the country are uniting September 7-9 to draw attention to the constitutional crisis we are in because of the illegal, and treasonous, usurpation of the Presidency.
The Mission in September
Faced with this stark reality, many patriots have called for specific action in Washington, and across the Nation, to alert the public to:
The fundamental ineligibility of Barack Obama for the Presidency,
The heroes in the military who are upholding their oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic;
The massive evidence of ineligibility, election fraud, and media complicity
The responsibility of the Congress, Judiciary, and the Executive in allowing this usurpation and their obligation to investigate and take action to safeguard the United States immediately
The danger that America faces with an ineligible Commander in Chief
What we want Congress, the Executive and Judiciary to do
Specific Events (tentative):
Monday, September 6, 8:30 pm. Candlelight vigil and opening ceremony TBA
Tuesday, Sept. 7, 11:30 am. Walter Reed Memorial Hospital. Honoring Constitutional heroes
Wednesday, Sept. 8, 8:30 am. Capitol Steps; House and Senate Office Buildings. Specific meetings with Republicans; public script and literature hand out, signage at key office buildings
Thursday, Sept. 9, 8:30 am. Justice Department demonstration; White House, Supreme Court
We also intend to honor the heroes amongst us, including Reverend Manning and the Constitutional attorneys and clients who have brought forth action to remove the usurper.
So we are going to have a march and rally for treason….Way to adhere to the Constitution….It goes to show that all of these imbiciles that claim they have read the Constitution haven’t read anything at all….
And the comments…
diane says:
Monday, August 2, 2010 at 6:12 AM
THERE IS A CASE OF NULLIFICATION OF THE IMPOSTOR IN THE WHITE HOUSE….NULLIFICATION WOULD GET RID OF HIM AND NULLIFY EVERYTHING HE HAS SIGNED TO DATE! HE NEEDS TO BE IN A NICE PRISON CELL WITH RANGEL AND STAY THERE FOR FRAUD AND TYRANNY TO WE THE PEOPLE. ALL HIS ILLEGAL ASSETS SHOULD BE SEIZED AND RETURNED TO WE THE PEOPLE…THE OTHERS IN CONGRESS WHO KNEW OF HIS INELIGIBILITY SHOULD ALSO BE IMPEACHED AND THEIR ASSETS SEIZED…I.E. PELOSI, REID, FRANK, RANGEL, DODD, ET. AL
live oak says:
Sunday, August 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM
There are no elected officials with courage and moral clarity! Where have you been? We have to be the ones to stand up! It’s been way past time. I’m tired and completely fed up with the talking and rhetoric. Everything is broken and it’s up to us to save the country.
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/08/01/a-constitutional-crisis/#comments
Dr. Kate always provides a target rich environment, but let me just draw attention to this quote from one of her commenters. Dr. Kate pointed out that Congress isn’t doing anything about their complaints, and this comment names five members of Congress, all of whom just happen to be Democrats. This illustrates a tendency in birthers to avoid acknowledging that the GOP is also doing nothing about their complaints. They clearly want this to be a partisan issue. They are comfortable and familiar with demonizing Democrats, and the opposition of Democrats fits perfectly into their world view. But the fact that Republican Congressmen also won’t do anything but pay them half-hearted lip service doesn’t fit into their world view one bit, and most of them avoid even mentioning it.
Sounds like a bunch of communists, who want to share the wealth,
You have quoted a wrong person.
nc1: “You have quoted a wrong person.”
Wrong and birther go hand in hand.
Next time provide the comment on the complete sentence not just a fraction of it.
Who has the authority to issue orders to deploy troops to Afghanistan? Is it Lakin’s immediate commander or does the chain of command go all the way to the Commander-in-Chief?
LTC Lakin’s immediate commander has the authority to issue orders to LTC Lakin.
It was Congress who gave the authority to Bush to deploy troops to Afghanistan. It seems that Lakin is more disillusioned than he seems. The orders came from his direct supervisor. Be careful of those facts.
Read the charges?
See “Obama”? See “Afghanistan”?
Fox News’ African-American Problem
August 03, 2010 3:21 pm ET by Karl Frisch
Last night, Fox News’ Greta Van Susteren apologized for airing file footage of Shirley Sherrod while discussing a story about African-American Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA).
As Media Matters’ noted, not only is this not the first time Fox News has made such a mistake, it also fails the network’s self-described “zero tolerance” policy for onscreen/factual errors:
Van Susteren didn’t mention the error during her show last night, though she later apologized for it on her blog. But let’s not forget: Fox has a stated “zero tolerance” policy for onscreen or factual errors. And it’s worth repeating that, despite this policy, Fox has repeatedly refused to correct previous “mistakes.”
This also isn’t the first time Fox News has inadvertently shown footage of one African-American while discussing another. As Media Matters has noted, in June 2007, Fox News showed footage of Rep. John Conyers during a report on the expected indictment of Rep. William Jefferson. In 2006, Fox aired footage of Harold Ford Jr. while talking about Barack Obama.
Fox News doesn’t just have a problem telling African-Americans apart, the network has trouble attracting African-Americans viewers and finding different ones to appear in Glenn Beck’s studio audience.
As Huffington Post’s Danny Shea noted last week, just 1.38% of Fox News’ audience is African-American:
The New York Times’ Brian Stelter tweeted that, according to Nielsen Media Research, Fox News has averaged just 29,000 black viewers in primetime so far this television season (9/09-7/10). That represents just 1.38% of its 2.102 million total viewer audience.
And, as Oliver Willis noted on his blog, Glenn Beck has a habit of recycling African-American audience members for his show (check his post for the screen captures):
New York City is a very big city. It has a population of over 2 million black residents according to the 2000 census, the largest of any U.S. city. So, there’s a pretty big pool of people to deal with. And yet, for his most recent revisionist history show, Glenn Beck had to recycle [black audience members] from his show a month ago about black history.
These problems aren’t the right-wing network’s only problems when it comes to race. Fox News and its personalities have a long history of aggressive race-baiting and racially charged commentary.
Thank goodness they’ve been rewarded with that front-row seat in the White House press briefing room. Sigh.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008030043
Look how the mainstream right, taking the birther talking point pushed by Orly, WND, and the Post and Fail idiots regarding overthrowing the rightfully elected government….
Wash. Examiner’s Owens suggests right-wing violence will be necessary, hopes we “feel threatened”
August 03, 2010 2:27 pm ET by Ben Dimiero
Earlier today, I pointed out that conservative media figures have recently been ramping up discussion of possible civil war and armed revolt. Conservative blogger Bob “Confederate Yankee” Owens, who was recently hired by the Washington Examiner, stated that nations that have supposedly collapsed as far as ours have the need to either “reform or replace their governments,” and “reform increasingly seems to be a fleeting option.” Perhaps to prove my point, Owens now says Media Matters should “feel threatened” by him, and even suggests that violence will be necessary.
In a new post titled “Closer to Midnight”, Owens responds to my earlier post by writing: “They portray it as a threat when ‘Conservative media figures openly discuss armed revolution.’ I hope they do feel threatened.” He adds that our “feigned ignorance” and “mockery” in the face of “peaceable protests” means that “perhaps it will take a serious review of our capacity for violence to get them to realize we shall not surrender our individual liberties to their lust for power.”
We have moved “closer to midnight” not because of any singular act , but because of inertia of a political class that does not respect or enforce the laws, or this nation’s sovereignty. We have diametrically opposed views of how our nation can and should be run, and it appears that there is very little room left for negotiation.
Propagandists for the elitists at Media Matters seem troubled by A Nation on the Edge of Revolt. They portray it as a threat when “Conservative media figures openly discuss armed revolution.”
I hope they do feel threatened. Attempts at peaceable protests have been met at turns by feigned ignorance, then mockery, then attacks on the character and motives of those would not sit quietly by. Perhaps it will take a serious review of our capacity for violence to get them to realize we shall not surrender our individual liberties to their lust for power.
I have not yet been swayed to the point of view that an armed conflict is inevitable, TN_NamVolunteer. But we are close enough that one would be wise to prepare for a possible conflict, just as one would prepare for any coming storm.
I wonder what the Washington Examiner’s policy is for employees who openly speculate on the need for politically motivated violence.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008030038
Now Nancy,
We’ve been down this rabbit hole how many times….?
Lakin is charged with disobeying the orders of his direct chain of command and adminstrative chain of command and defiantly refusing to deploy as per said orders.
If you deign to trawl through the various tawdry details on the web site Safeguardourconstitution you will find a plethora of self published paper work that shows that Lakin was counselled on more than one occassion that
a. His acts would lead to actions up to and including court martial
b. His acts would be in direct violation of the UCMJ
c. He is in the services and as such is required and obliged to follow orders that are not plainly and facially illegal under penalty
d. The fantasy of the legitimacy or otherwise of the CinC is a political quastion not a military one
e. Even if at some later point his fantasy burgeoned into reality it is wholly irrelevant based upon the De-Facto Officer doctrine
f. No precious “Discovery” for you. it’s irrelevant to the charges as laid out above
This horse you keep beating isn’t just dead it crumbled into dust one atto second after the charges were articulated, thank you for playing and have a nice day.
Could the immediate commander issue an order to deploy Lakin to Iran?
Kindly read above,
IRRELEVANT TO THE CHARGES
Could the immediate commander issue an order to deploy Lakin to Venus?
You did not answer a direct question: Who has the authority to order troop deployments to Afghanistan – is it the Commander-in-Chief or Dr. Lakin’s immediate commander?
Dr. Lakin has raised the question of Obama’s eligibility through his chain of command for more than a year prior to refusing the deployment to Afghanistan.
Obama supporters have no problems with the fact that the Coward-in-Chief refuses to relase his original birth certificate while signing orders to deploy troops to Afghanistan. Nobody should be asked to go to war and risk their life while wondering whether the Commander-in-Chief is eligible.
what if lakin see’s the magical long-form and still wonders if obama is eligible, would he then be required to go to war ?
“Nobody should be asked to go to war and risk their life while wondering whether the Commander-in-Chief is eligible.”
Luckily, military law doesn’t work that way and the birther coward is headed for DD, loss of pension and prison time.
ANOTHER BIRTHER FAIL. Good riddance to birther rubbish.
Nobody should be asked to go to war and risk their life while wondering whether their cat is illiterate.
Even more important is this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/are-your-cats-old-enough-to-learn-about-jesus,11206/
Excellent points, Dave! Well said.
LMAO!
Well, anyone care to place any bets on whether their whole gathering utterly collapses before the event date, like other birther “events” have in the past, or if they actually succeed in getting people to show up, and if so, how many “dozens” can they get to actually appear…? (like the EPIC FAIL Manning show trial). LOL!
Yeah, what was up with that?! It really boggles my mind how both this Administration and the rest of the “mainstream media” seem to constantly be cowed by FOX and afraid to challenge and point out their lies. It is like they are all afraid to face the big bully on the block…
It is truly a sad state of affairs when you have to look to Comedy Central for fact checking of the news. That being said, kudos to Jon Stewart & Stephen Colbert for consistently doing what they do and doing it well.
Friday, Sept. 10 4:00 pm. Denny’s on the corner of Broadway and 18th st. Early Bird Dinner Special and compare notes on overthrowing the government. I’ve reserved the big booth so we all should be able to fit.
“Obama supporters have no problems with the fact that the Coward-in-Chief refuses to relase his original birth certificate while signing orders to deploy troops to Afghanistan. ”
Nope, anybody who understands the chain of command in the military has no problem with this Obama ignoring an officer who gladly collected his paycheck from the Military up and until he was ordered to deploy to a combat zone.
“Nobody should be asked to go to war and risk their life while wondering whether the Commander-in-Chief is eligible.”
Instead, some other officer is in harms way because Larkin refuses to accept that the majority of voters have no issue with the President. What you- and Larkin- are advocating is that any soldier can disobey an order if they claim they don’t believe the President is eligible. If you don’t see the chaos to military discipline and military preparedness that kind of thinking would lead to, well you are clearly a birther.
I’d like to answer your question without quibbling, but it’s difficult because your hypothetical is nonsensical in a way you probably didn’t intend. Bear in mind that LTC Lakin was specifically ordered to go to Ft. Campbell, which is in Kentucky. Getting to Kentucky is easy, getting to Iran is, well, practically impossible. So instead of talking about Iran, let me assume you meant what if his superior gave him an order that was inconsistent with the superior’s own orders. Such a thing could hypothetically happen, and LTC Lakin would have been obliged to follow the order; the superior would have gotten in trouble for it.
He has released his birth certificate, two years ago, which no other President has ever done. Give it a rest already.
No white man ever had to show his birth certificate.
Obama is the only president to have the governor of his birth state confirm his birth in that state and what is even more remarkable is that the Governor is a member of the loyal opposition party to the president and she campaigned for the president’s opponent and gave a nominating speech for Sarah Palin, the opposition Vice Presidential candidate.
Maybe you can point out in the U.S. Constitution where it says that the military has the authority or responsibility to determine the eligibility of civilian leaders. My copy seems to be missing that clause.
In actuality, our liberty has been protected by a wise military which understands that our freedom and liberty requires their complete subservience to the determination of who will be our civilian leaders. As citizens, they all have a vote but their opinions and decisions end there. It is up to the voters, electoral college and Congress to determine who is eligible and who has been elected to lead the civilian government. To allow anything else is to allow our freedom to fall into tyranny. They would never be able to extract themselves after any movement against the civilian leaders, even with the wisest of generals. Practicality and security concern would cause an endless delay in returning a government and the nation to civilian rule.
Today’s military leaders, as have generals and admirals throughout our entire history understand this as a cornerstone of liberty. As Congress stated in their response to General Washington’s resignation (1783):
This statement is testament to Washington’s fortitude in preventing his officers from turning on
Congress for the poor treatment (and lack of pay) they were receiving. Thomas Jefferson referred to Washington’s actions in upholding the civilian rule:
If these true patriots chose to uphold civilian rule even when they were treated poorly and understandably aggrieved, why would you suggest we ignore this wisdom of our founders?
http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index.html
A coward is someone who calls other people names behind their back.
Posting hyperlinks to comments is a little tricky on my phone. Nevertheless I think I provided adequate context, pointing the hypocrisy in your saying Obama’s Social Security number is fraudulent because its state of issue, Connecticut, is so far from Hawaii, yet you are perfectly willing to accept a much more impossible trip to Kenya for him to be born.
I think I have an edited tape recording around here where Obama’s grandmother says she was present when Obama applied for his Social Security number in Connecticut.
Nice.
I don’t think that accurately characterizes what Graham said.
You missed the point that during his career Dr. Lakin served three tours abroad: Honduras, Bosnia and Afghanistan.
His Oath was to protect the Constitution first then to obey the orders of the CiC. If he thinks that the CiC is not eligibile for the position, it is his duty to refuse the order to deploy to a war zone because an ineligible person cannot issue a lawful order to deploy troops to war.
Let me help you – Dr. Lakin’s immediate commander can not order the troop movement to Iran on his own. If you followed the chain of command to find out who has the authority, you would have come to the top of the pyramid: there is only one person which has the authority to send troops to war – the CiC.
If the CiC was not eligible (s)he could not issue a lawful order to deploy troops to a war zone.
So, you think LTC Lakin failed in his duty when he continued following orders for well over a year after Obama became President? What punishment do you think he deserves for that? How about all the rest of the armed forces, who are still following orders? Should we court martial them all?
The governor has confirmed Obama’s birth the same way that Colin Powel confirmed that there were readily deployable WMDs in Iraq. Powell relied on the information provided by the CIA director. Similarly, Gov Lingle relied on what Dr. Fukino said.
She could have used a fraudulent unattended birth registration as a source for her statement. We don’t know for sure and Obama supporters are fine with blindly trusting him – a person already proven to be a habitual liar.
But you are not letting me help you. You persist in an example that has flaws that have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make. It is true that an officer will get into trouble if he issues orders that are inconsistent with his own orders. But your example of Iran is a disaster — he can’t at all for basic practical reasons. An acceptable defense for failing to follow orders is “there’s no way to do that” and had he been ordered to Iran that would have been true.
But I think (perhaps you can confirm) that your point is that the orders an officer issues must be consistent with the orders he has been given. This does in fact form a chain that goes up the the President. But you seem to be trying to make this say that if the President is ineligible, then no orders are legal, and that is false. I can take this further — if LTC Lakin knew of some reason why his immediate superior should not hold his position, he would still be legally obliged to follow his superior’s orders.
“You missed the point that during his career Dr. Lakin served three tours abroad: Honduras, Bosnia and Afghanistan. ”
I am sorry- did you make that point somewhere? Or are you just switching directions again?
Regardless, I was aware of Dr. Lakin’s previous willingness to follow orders.
“His Oath was to protect the Constitution first then to obey the orders of the CiC.”
So Lakin feels it is more important to protect the Constitution from the President the voters elected than protect the Constitution from the terrorists that attacked our country?
“If he thinks that the CiC is not eligibile for the position, it is his duty to refuse the order to deploy to a war zone because an ineligible person cannot issue a lawful order to deploy troops to war.”
That apparently is his opinion, and your opinion, but not the opinion of any informed commentators. You clearly do not care about the defense of the United States, its citizens or the Constitution. You advocate a military where every officer can make a unilateral decision as to which orders violate the Constitution.
I have said this before- in my opinion the President has no authority to commit troops to ‘War’ without a declaration of war. That such an action is unconsittutional. Suppose every officer who agreed with me refused to go to war, and that every such officer was allowed to argue that he was willing to go to war if Congress would just declare war? I would agree with them intellectually, but this is not how our system works. Officers follow orders unless the orders are clearly illegal. And if an officer wants to stand up and declare that he thinks an order is illegal he best be willing to take the fall when a court says, nope, your wrong.
I notice you also failed to explain how that Lakin was able to follow all the previous orders issued to him, up and until his deployment but somehow deployment is a ‘different’ from those other orders.
“– a person already proven to be a habitual liar”
Oh goody- we are back to NC1 calling Obama a habitual liar, and NC1 inabiltiy to distinguish between a lie and a spoken error.
NC1- previously when you were called out for calling Obama a habitual liar you made several errors, and were proven to be wrong and never actually proved anything.
Does that make you a habitual liar or just habitually wrong?
Character is what we are in the dark. Or what we do behind internet aliases.
(Yes, I know I’m setting myself up on this one.)
It’s also worth noting that illegal orders, as in orders that should not be followed, are very narrowly defined. I think this is part of what is confusing birthers. It absolutely does not mean an order that should not have been issued, and would not cover the case that a President ordered troops into battle without Congress declaring war. An order is illegal only if it directs you to do something contrary to the law of war.
Dr. Lakin followed duties while asking his commanders to clarify the issue for him. He was not sure whether Obama is eligible or not.
It is the fault of the US government why military personnel is in such a difficult position. They have been asked to risk their lives without being provided with a proof that Obama is a legitimate CiC.
Majority of Obama supporters have been cheering each refusal of civilian courts to deal with this simple issue. Unfortunately this shifted the burden of clarifying the issue to the military.
It would be a disgrace to court martial Dr. Lakin and not provide him with the evidence needed for his defense. After all, if what Obama has been saying were true, there would be no reason to prevent the discovery into records stored by the DoH. What is the big deal about it? Obama was born in Honolulu, was he not?
The discovery will be just a formality. Then Dr. Lakin can join his unit in Afghanistan.
Lakin will never see Afghanistan, at least while he is in the Army. Unless he has pictures of it on his cell wall @ Leavenworth.
1. A promise that he would put each law on the web 5 days prior to signing it – was it a lie or not?
2. He also promised not to hire lobbyists into his administration – was it a lie or a mistake?
3. He promised to prevent Congress from including pork barrel projects into laws – a lie or a mistake?
Do I need to continue with the list?
LTC Lakin has stated that he still isn’t sure if the President is eligible. This hasn’t changed. If it is his duty to refuse orders now, it was his duty to refuse them on 20 Jan 2009.
Of all the weird things birthers say about this court martial, this is the weirdest. In the alternate universe where the President’s eligiblity is somehow relevant to LTC Lakin’s case, how in the world does proving the President’s eligibility somehow get LTC Lakin off the hook? Does proving that his defense theory is factually wrong somehow make him not guilty?
Well, it doesn’t matter, because we live in this universe, where the law says orders have to be obeyed, and the President’s eligibility has nothing to do with it. Here’s what fans of LTC Lakin should be worried about: when the IO refused most of Jensen’s requested Article 32 testimony and documents, he stated that Jensen did not actually make any legal argument why it should be granted. You should find that extremely alarming. The IO didn’t rule against Jensen’s argument, he stated that Jensen didn’t make one. This is in the memorandum posted on LTC Lakin’s website. If Jensen wanted to dispute this statement, he could post his request — but he has not done so. None of Jensen’s filings have been posted.
And I’m still wondering what you want to do with all the officers that are still following orders. You stated that they have a duty to stop following them. They are clearly failing in that duty. Do you want to court martial them all?
I’d be willing to bet you any amount of money that President Obama did not forge his birth registration in 1961.
Again… Maybe you can point out in the U.S. Constitution where it says that the military has the authority or responsibility to determine the eligibility of civilian leaders. My copy seems to be missing that clause.
Do you have an answer? Are you avoiding the question? Is it in an army manual? Can you point out where?
Unfortunately this shifted the burden of clarifying the issue to the military.
Military courts have no authority to rule on Constitutional questions. They can apply Constitutional law when applicable, but interpreting the Constitution is solely the province of civilian Federal courts.
Obama was born in Honolulu, was he not?The discovery will be just a formality. Then Dr. Lakin can join his unit in Afghanistan.
The barn door is closed on that. If Obama is eligible, Lakin disobeyed a lawful order. He doesn’t get a do-over. Even if Obama is ineligible, Lakin disobeyed a lawful order. His refusal to obey his orders is inexcusable pursuant to the de facto officer doctrine. That’s why his so-called “defense” is irrelevant. Either way, he loses.
You really should brush up on military law before spouting your nonsense.
In your previous post you implied that Dr. Lakin was avoiding the combat zone. That was the reason I included the reference to his service abroad. It included a one year deployment in Afghanistan few years ago.
His Oath mentions protection of the Constitution before following the orders of a CiC. Therefore, as an officer, he has to be perfectly clear in his mind that the orders given to him are legitimate under the Constitution.
A US government should not take the military for granted. It is a must that the government follows the Constitution – if they do there will be less possibility for confusion among the military personnel.
Not a lie. A broken promise.
Not a lie. Another broken promise.
Not a lie. A rather romantic pipe-dream. A promise that had no hope of being kept. And I seem to remember lots of candidates making that promise for decades.
Nope. A much better accounting can be found here: The Obameter.
You’ll note that out of 505 promises being tracked, only 20 have been rated as broken, (your three among them) while 120 have been kept already. That is 6 times more kept than broken. However another 38 have been compromised and 81 have been stalled. Leaving 246 ‘in the works’.
Some of the 20 may yet be kept, like the National Space Council, but probably not. Some of the 246 may end up being broken.
Guess what? The President isn’t a dictator, he has to work with Congress to get things done. For some things he has to coordinate with foreign Governments and manage the feelings of critical allies. And he has to deal with lobbyists, fraudsters, liars, TV charlatans and other folks like you who poison the air with fear, uncertainty, doubt, misdirection, and misunderstanding.
He can’t just snap his finger and make things happen.
“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .” – GW Bush
“Deficits don’t matter” – Dick Cheney
“Auschwitz was divine retribution, because you people have refused to accept god’s only son.” – a minister in Palin’s church to me, in Anchorage
And here’s the truth, buddy boy: Obama will be re-elected, and Cory Booker will follow.
What’s the difference between Andrew Breitbart and a reptile?
One is hatched from eggs, eats insects and sleeps under a rock. The other is a reptile.
Boy, how weak and lame.
So, your whole basis seems to be that because the president, after only 18 months of a 48 month term of office, has failed to bring about some of the changes he campaigned on.
BFD.
Were you just born yesterday or have you been alive during any past presidencies or presidential campaigns? Just how many “campaign promises” did prior presidents make and completely fail to accomplish or even undertake during their entire 4-8 years of office.
Let me give you a hint – LOTS. Were you screaming “treason” from the rooftops on all of them? Even if you were, just how naive and unrealistic are you? Show me ANY politician that accomplished ever “campaign promise” they made. You simply CAN’T.
Do politicians get themselves in trouble and disappoint people for making promises that they can’t keep? YES.
Does it happen all the time? YES.
Complaining is easy. Making campaign promises to pander for votes is easy. Governing in reality is very hard. Even if you have the best of intentions, the odds are more against you getting you way when you govern. For one thing, legislators make the laws, not Presidents.
The point of the Executive Branch is just that – to execute and administrate the law. They do have the “bully pulpit” to some extent to try to effect change and some limited authority to enact law themselves, but even there they do not exist in a vacuum even within the sphere of their authority. Many, many spheres of influence in all directions have the ability to put pressure on an administration, including solely to prevent or block its agenda.
You like to safely make snide remarks and complain from your safe little seat across the internet, but all you are is puffing hot air, as you have no authority and no experience dealing with running the country. You think you can do better? Then put your money where your mouth is and get off your couch and run to replace him in 2012, big shot.
By the way, if you seriously want to track his progress on all the campaign promises he made, here’s where a running total is monitored:
http://www.politifact.com/
To date:
120 Promises Kept
38 Compromises
20 Promise Broken
81 Stalled
243 In the Works
3 Not yet rated.
That’s a total of 505 “campaign promises” being tracked.
Which means that within a mere 18 months, he’s already accomplished 24% of what he campaigned for, and has made progress on another 56%.
From any objective standpoint, that’s extremely impressive.
I don’t think any other president in the past 35 years comes anywhere close to matching that.
Yet whiny Debbie Downers like you totally focus on the “whopping” 4% of “promises broken”….
…I think that speaks volumes more about the type of person you are than about the President.
I would bet you anytime just the opposite (Obama was not born in the Kapiolani hospital). However, there is no way we could have a bet because you and the rest of Obama supporters are against the discovery process – without it there is no way to get to the bottom of the issue.
For you and me, anonymous posters on the web, the talk is cheap. What would happen if we were in Dr. Lakin’s position is another story. He IS risking his military career and possible imprisonment based on the conviction that Obama is not eligible to be the CiC.
Fool!! You did not read what Dr. C. wrote!
Wrong again. Under military law, he has to be perfectly clear in his mind that the orders given to him are illegal before he can disobey them. And military law is very clear about what constitutes an illegal order – it has to be an order which, on its face, requires him to break a law.
Instead of pontificating about you think the law should be, you should go to a blog such as http://www.caaflog.com/ and listen to real military lawyers discuss what military law actually is.
NC!,
And yet again- you refuse to answer the question- Does that make you a habitual liar or just habitually wrong?
You call President Obama a habitual liar. Personally I don’t think you know what either habitual or liar means. See, I have a mother in law who truely is a habitual liar. She will lie about whether she went to the grocery store or whether she ordered pizza. I have personal experience with habitual liars. Habitual liars lle even when its not necessary, or attempt to deceive to make petty points, and are caught so regularly at their lies that their neighbors and family know about there problem.
Yet your best evidence to back up your statement that President Obama is a habitual liar is three broken campaign promises? Are you naive or being deceptive? If I bothered to comb your posts here, I could find at least three statements of yours that are untrue- starting with your claim that Obama made a statement in his biography that he did not make in his biography. So if I can find where you have posted three untruths- does that make you a habitual liar?
“Do I need to continue with the list?”
I don’t think you can. Show me real and clear lies Barrack Obama has made over the years. Show me that his family and neighbors think of him as a liar. The only people calling him a habitual liars are the desperate and deluded that would prefer the military overthrow our elected government rather than see Barrack Obama as President.
This is the only reason I follow this blog. Its an opportunity to call out folks like your self who make outragious and unsupported smears about the President and his family.
Let me ask you this. Even if it was an unattended birth, how would you go about proving that the birth registration was fraudulent? In the absence of admissible evidence that Obama was born somewhere outside of the United States, what difference does it make if he was delivered by a doctor in a hospital or by a surfer on the beach?
“In your previous post you implied that Dr. Lakin was avoiding the combat zone. That was the reason I included the reference to his service abroad. It included a one year deployment in Afghanistan few years ago.”
Actually I said that Dr. Lakin willingly obeyed orders from his chain of command and accepted military pay- all while Obama has been President- and refused only when he was ordered to Afghanistan. The fact that he had previously been willing to serve in combat zones doesnt’ change my point at all. He made the choice of which orders he was willing to accept from his chain of command and which he wasn’t. So either he had a revelation when he was ordered to combat, or he willingly obeyed what he considered illegal orders up to and until he was ordered into combat.
And you once again dodge around the fact that because of Lakin’s unwillingness to follow orders, some other officer is now in harms way, instead of Lakin.
“His Oath mentions protection of the Constitution before following the orders of a CiC. Therefore, as an officer, he has to be perfectly clear in his mind that the orders given to him are legitimate under the Constitution.”
Again- was he therefore breaking his oath up until he refused to go to Afghanistan or did he suddenly remember his oath when he was ordered to Afghanistan?
I dated a classmate in college, who was a pathological liar.
It was confirmed when I asked her mother, “Is Carol adopted?”
“No, why?”
“because you and the rest of Obama supporters are against the discovery process – without it there is no way to get to the bottom of the issue.”
Yes, we Obama supporters- you know the folks that voted him into office by a large majority and the Electoral College, and Congress who all confirmed the President- we are all against the discovery process- because we apply the same standards to the President as we do to all Americans. He is legally the President, and you and a few malcontents are challenging his legitimacy. In our system, that doesn’t mean, that as the accusers, you get to have a fishing expedition to find some evidence that he isn’t eligible, and oh by the way also find out embaressing details about his mother or step father or sister or children. He provided enough evidence to convince the people who mattered- the voters, the electoral college and Congress. You want discovery? You haven’t even gotten any evidence, only smears and innuendo.
“For you and me, anonymous posters on the web, the talk is cheap. What would happen if we were in Dr. Lakin’s position is another story. He IS risking his military career and possible imprisonment based on the conviction that Obama is not eligible to be the CiC.”
That is clearly his choice. History will judge whether he is a Nelson Mandela or simply a poor deluded schmuck. Hopefully he will have the courage of his convictions, so that when he is given his sentence he will accept his time. Personally I will just consider him another criminal if he is convicted.
Help me understand the military officer’s oath: http://militaryoath.us/
The Commissioning Oath
“I, _____ , having been appointed an officer in the (Service) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”
(DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
The theme is the protection of the Constitution – it also mentions defense against domestic enemies. If an officer believed that the CiC was not eligible for the office, should that officer be quiet about it and possibly serve an usurper to the office?
What is the proper thing to do – should he follow the herd or his own conscience?
The key question in the debate is this: Can an order for troop deployment into a war zone, issued by an illegitimate CiC, be a basis for a lawful order down the chain of command?
If the answer to this question is Yes, then Dr. Lakin has no defense. However, if the answer to this question is No, he must be allowed the discovery process to prove his innocence.
What is the proper meaning of Dr C’s post? A literal translation is not possible: How could Obama (a baby) modify his birth certificate in 1961.
I understood that Dr. C knows my position that the original birth certificate is based on a statement (a false one) by a grandmother and that something on the COLB presented to the public has been altered.
That is why I read his post with the understanding that he would bet that the original birth certificate originated in the Kapiolani hospital, in that case there would be no need for any modifications to the COLB.
There’s no need for a discovery process, old sport. Why are you so intent on undermining the American election system? This isn’t Bosnia or whatever war-torn little hole spawned you, you know.
THAT’S your position?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Give it up, old sport. You’re as wrong today as you were a year ago.
A discovery process into Obama’s eligibility should be a simple one – it is easy to check government records to verify whether his mother was in Hawaii on August 4, 1961, whether the birth certificate has been amended, whether he used a foreign passport as an adult, whether his SSN is a legitimate one, whether he applied to college as a foreign student,…
In a big scheme of things it would not make a difference whether he was born at the beach in Honolulu or in the Hospital. However, if he was not born in the Kapiolani Hospital it would be an indicator that he lied about his birthplace. In that case it would be prudent to check the truthfulness of the unattended birth in Hawaii story.
As far as I know the order to deploy to Afghanistan is the only order that Obama issued that applied to Dr. Lakin’s day to day responsibilities at work. Other orders that he received from his chain of command did not originate at Obama’s desk.
Dr. Lakin anticipated that he could be sent to Afghanistan in the future and he proactively asked for guidance from his commanders about Obama’s eligibility for the office. According to the information on his web site the first question to his commanders was sent about a year prior to the deployment order. This clearly indicates that he has tried to follow his oath all along.
What is he supposed to think when even the Supreme Court justice (Thomas) publicly said that the court has been evading the POTUS eligibility question.
NC1
So much cack so little time.
In the end it still comes down to the same simple points
Lakin is charged with disobeying the orders of his direct chain of command and administrative chain of command and defiantly refusing to deploy as per said orders.
If you deign to trawl through the various tawdry details on the web site Safeguardourconstitution you will find a plethora of self published paper work that shows that Lakin was counselled on more than one occasion that
a. His acts would lead to actions up to and including court martial
b. His acts would be in direct violation of the UCMJ
c. He is in the services and as such is required and obliged to follow orders that are not plainly and facially illegal under penalty
d. The fantasy of the legitimacy or otherwise of the CinC is a political question not a military one
e. Even if at some later point his fantasy burgeoned into reality it is wholly irrelevant based upon the De-Facto Officer doctrine
f. No precious “Discovery” for you. it’s irrelevant to the charges as laid out above
Real simple, simple enough for a Birfer to read
Lakin is being court martialled, he will never get “discovery” he will be convicted and the second his utility is used up, he will be dropped by YOU and the rest of Birferstan like a used diaper in place with another useful idiot.
So you don’t think some web site, after his conviction, will be labeled a political prisoner, and we’ll see “illegal Lakin captivity: Day 212?”
Your comment is misleading. Thomas’ remark was in relation to the question as to whether Puerto Ricans were eligible and even then he was joking.
Government documents proving the president’s mother was in Hawaii on August 4, 1961 have already been released. The Certification of Live Birth published by the President proves that. Oh, you want TWO verifications? That will not be “simple” since we already know (contrary to your “should be simple”) that entry and exit records for the time period are not available — See Strunk v DHS.
The meaning of my quote was to point out the nonsense in your remark which I might paraphrase: why should we believe the birth registration since President Obama lies about everything? In order for the President’s truthfulness to have any effect on the COLB, he would have had to have done something in 1961.
I have already shown you where in the law in 1961 that parents were required to file the certificate for an unattended birth, so your grandmother scenario is impossible, and as long as you continue to hawk this impossible scenario, the more of everyone’s time you waste.
Your belief that the certificate is amended is based on no evidence and hence it further is a waste of everybody’s time. The law requires that amended certificates be clearly marked so, and the President’s COLB is not so marked. And even if the certificate were amended, it would could not affect his eligibility, since one cannot amend a certificate from “not born” to “born.”
Of course you say the certificate is a fake, but that is also silly for reasons already discussed.
So in summary, you are deluded.
Yet, to protect the constitution requires them to follow the will of the civilian government. It is not their role to determine who is lawfully elected or not. That is the exclusive domain of civilians. The voters voted, the electoral college cast their votes, the Congress certified the election and, though they really do no have a place in this, the Supreme Court has not chosen to take up a case. Therefore, to the military, he is the President of the United States and Commander of Chief of the Armed Forces. They need not like him or even agree with him, but their are honor bound to follow the orders coming from the National Command Authority.
To allow the military to decide whether or not the elected leaders are legitimate would be to toss the entire Constitution out the window. It is a slippery slope that would turn the military into a “Guardian Council” on who can or cannot be President.
Even if the military could determine the qualifications, they leadership would have to do this before disobeying any order. Would you have supported 20 officers refusing Bush’s orders to go to Iraq until the Florida votes were counted to their satisfaction?
Will we even hear “illegal Lakin captivity: Day 3?”
Just for the record, I am not “against” the discovery process. I am in favor of the laws of the United States being followed and applied in a fair and uniform manner, and that no exceptions be made just because some conspiracy theorists think their concerns are so important that the law shouldn’t apply to them. If it should be the case that discovery were to be ordered in some legitimate court action, you will not see me making any objection. I would love to have a photocopy of the original birth certificate to frame and hang on my wall, and I said so on Ken Dunbar’s blog radio show last year.
What I have done, is to predict based on my understanding of the law (IANAL) that discovery will not happen in the Lakin case or in any other one that I know about. What I also predict is that when and if the certified photocopy of the original birth certificate is published among court documents, the birthers will give it as much heed as they have the certified abstract of the original birth certificate released in June of 2008.
There is no way anyone could have a bet with you because you’ll just spin any new information into some conspiracy instead of accepting the reality that Obama is President and was born in this country. Discovery won’t yield you any new contradictory information. I wouldn’t be in Lakin’s position because I would have obeyed orders that were facially valid.
Oh I’m quite sure some low life like Ed Hale will try and set up a PayPal button festooned web page to try and drain some “residuals” from Lakin post conviction, you will however probably see the Pest and AGJ drop him in a week or so.
His utility is solely in the magical unicorn horn of Discovery and once that is plainly killed off what use is he to them…?
There will be another gullible idiot along or some tortuously parsed, innocuous piece of trivia to drivel over or another TRIAL OF TEH CENTURY or some such.
Birferstan is a 5 year old with a bad case of ADD, it’s all about them, the world is unfair, the next shiny object is the most important thing in the universe and if I don’t get what I want NOW, it’s tears and tantrums before bed time.
And just like that tiresome little child they irritate but have no other actual affect on the real world.
You see, flaw one in your whole argument here, is that you don’t have a shred of evidence to support any of that. If a plaintiff could get standing, Obama could file Motion for Summary Judgment, attached the same COLB he scanned and had FactCheck take pictures of, and end of case. What you are suggesting is that a person has to suffer a fishing expedition through their past based on wholly unsupported rumours and conspiracy theories (you realize that the whole “Fullbright scholarship as a foreign student” is based on an April Fools joke?). The courts aren’t created so every person who claims to have “concerns” can go there to feel better. A person bringing a case to court is statint that to the best of their belief and after inquiry reasonable under the circumstances, the factual contentions have evidentiary support, or will likely have evidentiary support after a reasonable opportunity for further investigation. There isn’t a shred of evidence to support anything but a Hawaian birth. You can’t say that. All you’re saying is that it would be easy to double check everything, but can’t even say what you’re basing your belief that they would point to anything but a birth in Hawaii. Your theory that his grandmother fraudulently filed (which under the law, a grandmother could not) is based on nothing. You are demanding that a person prove, several times over, and far beyond what is required by law, something based on a hunch of yours that has no basis in fact what so ever. Sorry, you’re just not special enough to get that, and I thank God that our courts don’t work like that.
It reminds me of the Terri Schiavo affair. It was the cause celebre for a while and then people moved on
Your ignorance regarding how the military works is breathtaking.
If a military officer detects what he or she believes to be a domestic enemy or a threat to the Constitution, the officer’s duty is to let his or her superiors know about it. A Lieutenant Colonel in the medical corps has no authority or competence to make such determinations, nor does he have the authority to take action based upon his beliefs. Lakin made his concerns about Obama known to his superiors, and his superiors properly dismissed them. That is how it works in the military. You make your grievance known, and your superiors either act upon your grievance or they dismiss it. Either way, a soldier has to accept the result.
The key question in the debate is this: Can an order for troop deployment into a war zone, issued by an illegitimate CiC, be a basis for a lawful order down the chain of command?If the answer to this question is Yes, then Dr. Lakin has no defense
Lakin has no defense. The de facto officer doctrine applies.
His possible imprisonment is not based on conviction, but on rumors, theories, speculation and outright falsehoods. He had an obligation to look at the information with a critical eye and with sound judgement before abandoning his fellow soldiers. He chose instead to participate in a witch hunt, and for that, he gets what he deserves.
Sorry, Bob, that was meant for NC1.
How is it possible for one person to be wrong is so many ways?
The only record which any government has about where Obama’s mother was on August 4, 1961 is Obama’s birth certificate. The Department of Homeland Security has stated that there are no exit/entry records prior to the 1980s, when such records were automated. Or perhaps you believe that the FBI had her under surveillance?
whether the birth certificate has been amended
Amended in what respect? Do you really believe that he had a birth certificate which says that he was born in Kenya, and the State of Hawaii agreed to amend it to say that he was born in Honolulu?
whether his SSN is a legitimate one
If he had ever used an illegitimate SSN, the government would have caught on decades ago. Do you really believe that he could have filed Income Tax returns for 30+ years with an illegitimate SSN and it would not have come to the government’s attention?
whether he applied to college as a foreign studen
An absurd question which has no basis in fact. The State Department made the determination in 1967 that Obama was a U.S. citizen, and it has been demonstrated time and again that he could not have lost his citizenship while he was living in Indonesia.
However, if he was not born in the Kapiolani Hospital it would be an indicator that he lied about his birthplace.
How so? For decades I have been telling people that I was born in Northern Westchester Hospital in Mount Kisco, N.Y. I of course have no memory of my birth, so I have made those statements based upon what my parents told me (my New York birth certificate does not include the name of a hospital or attending physician). Suppose someone turned up records which show that I was actually born in a taxi. Does that make me a liar?
In that case it would be prudent to check the truthfulness of the unattended birth in Hawaii story.
Back to my original question. If he had an unattended birth, and he is the only one who was present who is still alive, how would you prove that it did not occur in Hawaii?
This birther and many like her have made it quite clear that no amount of evidence will ever be satisfactory. Look at how many times she has moved the goalposts.
These b.s. concern troll posts are a smokescreen. That’s what makes this bizarre fascination with the mystical long form ludicrous.
It’s called a Certificate of Live Birth. According to this document, President Obama was born, exactly 49 years ago in Honolulu, Hawaii.
Happy birthday
Thomas and the congressman from Puerto Rico make these jests all the time. They were talking about whether or not a Puerto Rican can be the President.
Do your research ….
As to Lakin, if he was following his oath and his military duties then he would not have been doubting the eligibility of his commanders.
One cannot pick and chose what one considers to be one’s oath and one’s duties in the military…
NC1 appears to be quite poorly informed…
Perhaps but she has a propensity for taking things out of context to suit her birther conspiracy agenda. It’s a blatant FUD tactic that only fools other gullible, hate driven birthers. That’s what keeps the PayPal button ringing on the birther blogs and fake news sites.
I doubt she even realizes how she is letting her biases guide her research.
Look there is a well oiled machine out there which, under the guise of ‘news’, releases misleading and biased information. And some people are just more susceptible to allowing others to control them. A side effect of evolution I guess 🙂
And they do reproduce quite well. Homo sapiens is doomed.
NC1, you make a big deal of the officer’s oath, but you are picking and choosing what to emphasize.
Hence your point regarding: “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic”
According to you Lakin is defending the Constitution against I supppose a domestic enemy- but as far as i am concerned Lakin is derelict of his oath to defend the Constitution from foreign enemies. Lakin suspects the President is not the President but according to Congress and the previous President, whose orders he did not dispute, the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan are a direct threat to the safety of the United States.
Lakin has decided his doubts about the legitimacy of the President take a precedent over defending the United States against our proclaimed foreign enemies- the terrorists of Al Qaeda. He is such a staunch defender of the Constitution that he is willing to put U.S. citizens at greater risk of foreign attack rather than follow the same orders issued by the previous President.
I notice how you still refuse to engage in the bigger picture. Birthers, such as yourself, and Lakin, are really willing to let our amazingly stable and balanced government be disrupted in order to pursue your hatred of the President.
This is what I mean- look around the world at how many countries have had military coupes in the last 20 years. The only thing that prevents a military coupe here is the respect that the military has for the rule of law, the chain of command and civilian authority.
The orders I would expect an officer to refuse is the President ordering the military to round up members of Congress, or an officer refusing a General’s command to arrest the President. These are the orders the entire military must understand are illegal in order to prevent military take over of governments they disagree with.
What you are advocating is for military personnel determining what is the proper legal government in the United States.
Beyond that, you are also advocating that individual officers have the right to challenge their chain of command to their own satisfaction prior to following orders. While in this case, Lakin is claiming it is because he has doubts about Obama’s legitimacy, this could just as easily have been regarding his immediate commander. What you advocate is for individual soldiers being able to challenge any order they receive, and require that the President, or any officer in their chain of command, jump through any hoops they demand prior to following orders. In your world, soldiers could and would be challenging their commanders to prove the legitimacy of their orders prior to following them, which would seriously compromise the ability of the military to defend the United States.
You are willing to see the U.S. go up in flames in order allow those fringe elements who will not accept that the President was legally elected and confirmed to be President.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7qEH-tKoXA
In the interest of the national security it would be prudent to verify that Obama is indeed eligible for the office. What is the big deal about it? The Judicial system and the Congress have abdicated their duty. They have put military in a difficult situation. No person should go to war and risk losing their life if they don’t have a clear understanding that they are following a lawful order. A CNN poll today shows that only 42% of the people are certain that Obama was born in the USA.
If birthers were wrong – no harm would be done to the country. However, if they were correct – it would expose an incredible weakness of the US government system.
Dr. Lakin’s case will be a good indicator of the current state of affairs in the USA.
If he is not allowed the discovery – welcome to the USSA.
I think that the military command has made a bad decision to proceed with the court martial – they should have asked, behind the scenes, that Congress and Judicial system deal with the eligibility issue head on.
Lakin is accused of violating the orders given by his immediate superior. His theory is that all military orders given since 12pm EST on 20 January 2009 are illegal if Obama is ineligible. If the court finds that his theory is wrong, then his beliefs about Obama’s birth are irrelevant.
Thank you for conceding my point.
USSA? It is comments like that from people who wear patriotism on their sleave that show how much you really hate our country. You lost NC1 get over it. This isn’t about national security and you know it. It is because you simply hate the guy holding the office. You do know that even if McCain was in office people would still be in the war as both wars were started under the previous president. You get more ridiculous by the second. Congress has done its duty. The judicial system has done its duty. Obama’s eligibility has nothing to do with Lakin’s court martial. He refused an order from his direct superior.
Reminds me of the Onion story, “Area man passionate defender of what he imagines the Constitution to be.” The judicial system has done it’s duty, as has Congress. Just because the outcome isn’t what you want it to be doesn’t mean they haven’t done their jobs. You poll citiation, besides being decepitve (only 25% stated that they believe Obama definitely was, or proabaly was born outside the US), has no impact on reality. Also, if you look at how those numbers cut, that vast majority of the 25% are Republicans. So we have a bunch of Republicans who dislike the president so much, they’ll cling to anything to give an excuse for their inherently undemocratic, unpatriotic, and un American attitude to reject any President, other than one that is idelogically consistent with their political beliefs.
That takes us to the military. The military is no difficult position at all. Their job is to follow all facially legal orders given to them by their civilian chain of command. End of story. They have no place in determining policy, settling legal disputes, or questions of legitimacy. Even if the president was not legally qualified to serve, the military does not have a role in questioning this. They are not Constitutionally qualifed to make that kind of determination. Please point to what part of the Constitution that establishes the military as a separate branch of government qualified to settle disputes between other branches of government? By what authority can the military ask that Congress or the Judicary deal with anything? What you are advocating is a banana republic where general call the shots, and can change governments on their whims. It is genuinely shocking the lengths that some on the right are willing to go to ensure that the only government that is permitted is one that ideologically suits them, and are willing to destroy our constitution, and tear down our entire system of government, in order to prevent anyone with a different ideology from ever leading our government. If there is anyone who is seeking to destroy the USA, it is people of your ilk, not us.
“they should have asked, behind the scenes, that Congress and Judicial system deal with the eligibility issue head on”
Another incredibly stupid birther statement.
Behind the scenes? SCREW THE LAW! SCREW THE CONSTITUTION! A naturalized birther demands more information to satisfy her twisted political agenda. THAT’S ALL THAT MATTERS!
“I think that the military command . . .”
There’s no rational thought process here. We don’t advocate military dictatorships like people from eastern Europe who only know unlawful actions of force.
“welcome to the USSA”
Vile, squawking nonsense.
Undeterred by previous examples of her ignorance, nc1, moves forward to propose yet another spin as to why her concerns about President Obama should be taken seriously even though the President has released his Certificate of Live Birth, which shows him born on US soil, as verified by the Department of Health in Hawaii.
As to Lakin, he refused to obey direct orders and the eligibility of President Obama has no relevance here. Read US v New where New raised the illegality of the war as a ‘defense’ for refusing to follow orders. The issue was found to be irrelevant.
The end. The belief that one can get discovery based on specious “legal theories” is absurd.
I assume you thus agree with Dr C?
Pathetic…
As NC1 would have been able to find out, Justice Thomas and the chair person have been exchanging these jokes at almost every meeting. In other words, this has nothing to do with President Obama.
Ignorance.. Such a powerful motivator…. So easily shown…
NC!- you call the President a habitual liar- I say that you are habitually intellectually dishonest. I laid out quite specifically my points to you- and what do you do? You dance around and never answer my specific points. Instead you bring up a new point. I can only assume it is because you are conceding that all of the points that I raised are correct- that Lakin is willing to put our country at risk in order to pursue his doubts about the President, that you advocate military personal deciding which orders to follow, and you have no objections to a military takeover of the government of the United States. With defenders of the Constitution like yourselves, I am not sure we need fear Al Qaeda.
“In the interest of the national security it would be prudent to verify that Obama is indeed eligible for the office.”
First of all, President Obama’s eligibility was already verified by those that matter- the voters, the Electoral College and Congress. Secondly- what the hell do you mean? Tell me- how would our national security be affected if after rigororous research we find out that President Obama was not eligible on a technicality, but he was never aware of it? Thirdly- where were you with these concerns about national security about previous Presidents? Forget about the fact that there were malicious rumors that Obama was a closet Muslim, that he was born in Kenya or Indonesia or any of the 100 or more slanderous rumors that were being pushed by racists and political opponents- where is the consistant concern regarding the National Security of the United States? If you just suddenly found this passion because of internet rumors, then that shows what kind of consistancy you have.
“What is the big deal about it?”
There is no big deal- the President is ignoring you and Lakin.
“The Judicial system and the Congress have abdicated their duty. ”
And here you show your further disconnect into Conspiracyville. You left out the voters by the way. FYI- Congress and the Judicial system have followed the law and the Consitution.
“They have put military in a difficult situation. No person should go to war and risk losing their life if they don’t have a clear understanding that they are following a lawful order.”
And you never replied to my points in my last post. Already answered that, but apparently you think the military can operate when every soldier gets to question every order to see if its lawful. I don’t.
” A CNN poll today shows that only 42% of the people are certain that Obama was born in the USA. ”
And the majority of voters were certain he was born in the U.S. That is what actually matters.
“If birthers were wrong – no harm would be done to the country. However, if they were correct – it would expose an incredible weakness of the US government system.”
If? If? This is all you have? If? Why do birthers so blithely ignore every law yet claim they are protecting the Constitution?
“Dr. Lakin’s case will be a good indicator of the current state of affairs in the USA.
If he is not allowed the discovery – welcome to the USSA.”
That right- because Lakin will get convicted under proper military procedure, without allowing him the fishing expedition he feels he is deserved, we are no longer the United States of America.
Just ridiculous and habitually intellectually dishonest
More humor from the Post and Fail…Does anyone else see the correlation to the rabid birthers and the anti government and anti tax nutcases that have been out there for awhile?
“Aug. 5, 2010) — Prior to 1913, there was no federal income tax, the states had rights and representation in Washington, DC, there was no Federal Reserve Bank and the federal government lived under the enumerated powers afforded it within the US Constitution. What a difference one year can make…
Almost a hundred years later, it’s clear that the policies established in 1913 must be revoked in order to restore power to the people and the states. But can the American people get the Genie back in the bottle”
Since 1913, the federal tax code has been used as a primary tool of leftist social engineering in which the people have been forced to fund a government they no longer recognize and no longer support. The US Congress has a mere 11% approval rating today and the Executive branch is supported only by the 28% of citizens who benefit personally by the robbing of fellow citizens.
Further, thanks to the passage of the 17th Amendment also passed in 1913, the states no longer have representation in Washington, DC. Once again, what seemed like a simple sentence and a good idea to some at the time has since been used by the federal government to eliminate states’ sovereignty and rights.
The 17th Amendment states: “The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, elected by the people thereof, for six years;”
It is referred to as the “supremacy clause” today, a wholly anti-American notion that the federal government has unlimited “supreme” power over the states and the people. Without states’ representation in DC due to the 17th Amendment, the Fed is free to run wild and it is.
The Federal Reserve System was established to provide a stabilizing factor to occasional extreme volatility in the financial markets, usually caused by over-reaching speculative trading by only a handful of eager investors.
The new system emerged from a private sector investment by then 70 year old J.P. Morgan which stalled the growing run on banks caused by the financial trouble of the New York Knickerbocker Trust. JD Rockefeller stepped in to help out, along with a few other well-heeled financiers.
Just as Obama and Democrats are doing today, democrats tried to saddle Republican President Teddy Roosevelt with the blame for the banking panic.
Beginning in 2001, the Bush administration tried for seven years to convince congressional Democrats including Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd that there was impending trouble with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but to no avail.
It was the Federal Reserve and American taxpayers who would be held accountable for the misdeeds of Democrat incompetency and a refusal to address the growing mortgage problem until there were no good options left.
In the end, the Obama regime would drive the nation from $10 trillion in debt to $14 trillion in debt in just its first two years in office, with trillions more in unfunded social spending aimed at propping up the failing labor unions that will keep them in political power.
Before the people and the states can control this nation again, they will have to undo all the damage done in 1913 which allowed further damage to be done via FDR’s Raw Socialism Deal.
And it is pretty bad when another birther has to point out the errors in Williams’ screed…
ELmo says:
Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 11:14 AM
I like reading JB’s articles and certainly his heart is in the right place.
However, he tends to be somewhat inaccurate in some of his “Constitutional
Facts”.
This is the second time I have written to correct a “Major Factual Error” in one of JB’s articles.
The Supremacy clause (as I have learned it) is expressed in the second paragraph of Article VI of the Constitution and is only coincidentally connected to the 17th Amendment.
I hate to sound critical of this patriotic man; but errors of this sort need to be corrected lest your readers be misinformed. Although there is no doubt about the patriotic fervor attendant in JB’s writing, a little more fact-checking before publishing would be helpful with regards to the educational value of his pieces. Otherwise, I enjoy reading JB Williams’s writings.
ELmo
————–
Mrs. Rondeau replies: I did contact Mr. Williams as I read the piece before publication, as I thought perhaps a paragraph was missing. I will update as necessary.
http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/08/05/1913-was-a-very-bad-year/
Yes, absolutely. And the link is very strong amongst those anti-tax/anti-gov folks and the Teabaggers too.
Well, the Supremecy clause wasn’t the only fact that JB Williams had wrong in his spew… but then again, his whole ranting screed is so delusionally twisted that its not worth pointing out all of the errors when the entire thing is nothing but a heap of garbage.
Does anyone know of any studies that have been done of people like the birthers? A lot of them seem to be seriously deranged & have a very warped view of the way the world actually works. I don’t know of any bloggers here who have “outed” themselves as professional psychiatrists or psychologists, but their analysis would be interesting.
On Fox & Friends, co-host Clayton Morris labeled the 14th Amendment the “anchor baby amendment.” This is part of a campaign by the right-wing media to change the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment is actually the amendment that forms the basis for many of the rights Americans enjoy today, including the right to desegregated public schools; the right to marry someone of a different race; and the requirement that states respect the right to keep and bear arms…
Trivializing the 14th Amendment as the “anchor baby amendment” is just sad. The 14th Amendment is actually the amendment that added the Equal Protection Clause, state Due Process Clause, national Privileges and Immunities Clause, and the citizenship clause to the Constitution.
As such, the 14th Amendment is the first time the notion of equality was explicitly included in the Constitution and is the basis for many of the constitutional rights that we all take for granted.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008040031
Don’tcha know that everything that they need to run a country is in the Preamble, Amendment 2, & Amendment 10!?
I don’t know anybody who has come forward in an official psychoanalysis capacity here – but then again, I don’t think they could – anyone trained would tell you that it is unfair to diagnose someone without actually examining them directly.
However, I think many of their psychoses are quite clear and fall under standard definitions, including cognitive dissonance, etc, that even us lay-folk can safely speculate on the diagnoses for the behaviors displayed.
A number of us have shared various articles on the topic of defective types of thought that lead to adhering to pre-conceived conclusions, illogical fallacy and irrational paranoia.
If you dig through this site, you can probably find some references to them.
If Dr. C can find the time and be so kind, I would offer this up as a request to have a section put up on this website referencing articles that explain the types of convoluted thought processes we’ve encountered. I think this would be a helpful reference & research tool, since this comes up fairly frequently and it can be so baffling for us rational folks to understand the complete disconnect from reality we receive from the birthers.
BL – I so totally agree and am very saddened by this latest vile turn of events. To me, it really smacks of blatent racism by those who want to repeal the Civil Rights movement…and possibly even repeal all reforms that followed the Civil War.
It is just more proof that even though these folks say the most ridiculous nonsense, that they need to be constantly refuted loudly and harshly. Ignoring them, going easy on them and letting them continue to get away with their crazy statements and bad behavior has just continued to embolden them. Like the birthers, they just keep moving the goal posts and get further and further extreme in their desires, statements, and actions.
These folk are quite simply the American version of the Taliban, except that they want to enforce some warped version of a harsh Christian theocracy, where only white people that look, act and think just like them are tolerated.
She suspected that something was amiss, so she went ahead and published it anyway? Journalism at its finest!
Sadly, she has a pattern of such behavior, so nothing new about that. There’s nothing close to actual “journalism” out there anyways. So, nobody takes these hack tabloid con artists seriously… except the seriously deluded.
I’ll just draw your attention to Strange Brew: Immigration and the Tea Party’s Efforts to Deny the Constitution’s Guarantee of Birthright Citizenship
The “Strange Brew” series at the Constitutional Accountability Center is a brilliant series about the failings of the Tea Party’s view of the Constitution. Highly recommended.
Feingold nixes GOP request for hearings into 14th amendment
Republicans may be calling for hearings into revising the 14th amendment, which guarantees citizenship to children of illegal immigrants, but it looks like they’re not going to get ’em.
Russ Feingold, who chairs the Constitution Subcommittee, which would conduct the hearings, has “no plans” to allow them to go forward, his spokesman confirms to me.
And Feingold, in a statement, is reiterating that Federal immigration reform, not amending the Constitution, is the solution:
“We can and should address the problem of illegal immigration head-on without amending the Constitution. The way to do that is to pass bipartisan comprehensive legislation improving border security, protecting American jobs and addressing those currently in the country illegally. It is past time for Congress to resume the bipartisan effort that was started by President Bush and enact meaningful federal immigration reform.”
Right now, the list of Republicans supporting hearings into whether to repeal birthright citizenship includes Chuck Grassley, Jon Kyl, and Lindsey Graham, who has hinted at a Constitutional amendment. Mitch McConnell and John McCain also seem supportive of hearings, though their backing is ambiguous.
Does Feingold’s opposition mean no hearings on the issue? Unclear. The Constitution Subcommittee appears to be the first stop for efforts to amend the Constitution, But in theory, Senator Patrick Leahy, as chair of the overarching Judiciary Committee, could decide to go forward, despite Feingold’s opposition. That seems unlikely, however.
More broadly, other Senate subcommittees, such as the one on immigration, could hold hearings on the issue itself, if not on whether to change the Constitution.
But it’s looking less and less likely that any Constitutional tweaks are on the table. Conservative defenders of the Constitution will no doubt be deeply relieved! Oh, wait…
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/feingold_nixes_gop_request_for.html
For the idiots on the right who have decided to demonize the 14th…..Ya do know that without that, the 2nd Amendment wouldn’t have been ruled as applying to the states in the McDonald V Chicago case…………
Oops, fell into cognitive dissonance for a moment there…..it’s as if you can’t pick and chose the parts of the Constitution you want to play with……
Now which is gonna be more important…scary brown hued “anchor babies” (or American Citizens as they are legally called) or “Peace through superior firepower”…?
Me, I have no problems with either, babies, love ’em, wouldn’t eat anything else and the more evil looking and scary my firearms, the better.
Nothing says I love my Constitutional rights, so bog off and leave me alone, better than a pistol with a bayonet…8-)
http://cdn1.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/img-1751.jpg
Off the topic slightly but morally, I am not opposed to making children born in the United States of illegal parents not automatically citizens, but I am opposed to reflexive changes to the Constitution.
What i like about the 14th amendment is that it is so clear cut. Anyone born in the United States is a citizen.
I think the dangers from changing the 14th are higher than the dangers of some ‘anchor’ babies.
I agree completely.
I have no problem with people looking into how to properly address this issue but I’m completely against any attempts or efforts to repeal the 14th amendment in order to do so.
Not only would that be wrong in so many, many other ways in terms of the protections that the amendment rightly affords, but in terms of being a method to address the specific “anchor baby issue”, such an attempt would be more akin to trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer.
In a china shop.
Also known as the DICK Cheney method.