Transcript
If things go according to plan, Hawaiian election clerk and instant Obama denialist celebrity will be on Reality Check Radio 15 minutes from now (March 31, 2010) at 9 PM Eastern Time. Will we finally achieve closure on who claimed that who saw what when?
Well the show happened with Tim Adams in the spotlight for about 2 hours. You can use the link above to access the archived show shortly. Yours truly participated for part of the show.
Did Tim finally tell us who saw what records? He said specifically that Elections Division staff contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, Kapi’olani and Queens hospitals and were told that they had no records on Obama. So we now know what records he claimed were queried; however, he refuses to name anyone who queried the records, nor did he explain how anyone in the Elections Division legitimately asked about someone who was not registering to vote in Hawaii.
The show covered a lot of ground, and I hope folks who didn’t get to hear the show live will check out the archive or the transcript when available and continue the discussion here.
The transcript is now available now.
Thanks for the heads up, Doc.
Tim Adams was Emperor of Hawaii, and has access to every document ever created. He hired Sherlock Holmes and James Bond, and together they all searched for 79 years and found nothing but space gaps where all of Obama’s records should be.
Obama may have sent his records to Ghaddafy for safe keeping.
Funny he claims takahashi was outed by his testimony which was what exactly? He doesn’t know who told him what or who. Mismanagement of registration? You weren’t there during the election Tim
Now he’s calling Janice Okubo a liar and coming out as a proponent of the forged COLB theory. Just amazing.
He hasn’t even bothered to look at the fact check photos. Please Dr. Fukino is a woman you keep saying he
Any possibility of a transcript? I’ve got music playing for my customers through my computer at work and can’t listen.
Thanks for the live-blogging though.
And Tim says there’s no raised seal on the COLB – which of course flatly contradicts what is plainly visible on the FactCheck. So I suppose FactCheck is on the conspiracy, too.
Go get ’em, Doc!
Doc, you need more practice in nailing jello to the wall. Ever time he’s cornered, he squishes out by changing the subject or repeating an untruth as if it was truth
God I can’t get my confirmation email for blog talk radio damn you aol!
YOu don’t need an email to listen, Bob
Adams: How do we get this to where it never happens again?
One word – MEDICATION
THE PROOF IS THERE; HE JUST DOESN’T WANT TO BELIEVE IT.
WHY WILL HE NOT ACCEPT THE CERTIFIED STATE DOCUMENTS AND THE OFFICIALS’ STATEMENTS THAT IT’S REAL?
Doc,
Since you mentioned the circumstances of the release of Obama’s birth certificate, there’s one point I want to make that birthers always gloss over.
Before Obama released his birth certificate, no candidate had ever done so before. Given that precedent, if Obama chose not to release his COLB in the first place, the media wouldn’t have given him a hard time about it.
So given that, what motivation would Obama possibly have to FORGE a birth certificate that he didn’t have to release, and place an image of it up on the internet for all of his political enemies to attack?
The bottom line is, if Obama didn’t actually have a birth certificate, he would have been the LAST person on Earth to break the precedent of not releasing birth certificates.
Great point JohnC, nobody forced Obama to release anything, so why would he jump and stick his neck out to release a forgery?
And if he was going to release a forgery, why not release a forged “long form” now that would satisfy their blood lust?
If he could release a COLB that was fake with impunity, then he could do the same with a “long form” now with impunity
Just one more reason why birther reasoning does make a lot of logical sense in the real world.
Sorry, I meant to say that birther reasoning does NOT make sense.
If there was a conspiracy, Abercrombie would have been, “AHA! Here it is, the definitive proof, a long form birth certificate, certified by the state of Hawaii, that proves Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.” Of course, we know that the birther klan would have moved the goalposts again, but if there was an ongoing conspiracy, it would tie up all the lose ends rather than leaving them hanging.
Tim and Doc have been talking about birth certificates issued for home births. I have a question about that that no one has addressed…
Why is it that Obama’s COLB says he was born at 7:24 p.m.? Why not 7:30, or even 7:25?
If he was born at home, I doubt anyone would have remembered the exact moment of his birth to the minute. What we see on Obama’s COLB suggests a fairly standardized method of recording information with precision, such as one would expect of a hospital.
One other novel thought…
If Obama was able to release a professionally-forged COLB, as the birthers think, one would expect that he would also have the ability and motivation to professionally forge and release the long-sought-after long-form certificate as well.
Doesn’t the claim that Obama forged a COLB conflict with his subsequent failure to produce a long form?
Yes, that was my point, John. Moreover, if he’s paying judges off, as the birther klan is fond of saying, why not just pay off 9 SCOTUS justices one time to take a case and declare him “natural born” per the Constitutional requirement? Why let it go there 9 or 10 times and not take the opportunity to pay them off one time to put the matter to rest once and for all
Their claims of a conspiracy do not pan out because a conspiracy is done to put a matter to rest, to keep it hidden, but this conspiracy is not meeting the definition of a conspiracy in that there are too many loose ends out there that a real conspiracy would resolve if there really was a conspiracy.
it would have been nice if Tim’s supervisor in Hawaii called in, I would have loved that!
JohnC March 31, 2011 at 10:01 pm wrote:
Before Obama released his birth certificate, no candidate had ever done so before. Given that precedent, if Obama chose not to release his COLB in the first place, the media wouldn’t have given him a hard time about it.
So given that, what motivation would Obama possibly have to FORGE a birth certificate that he didn’t have to release, and place an image of it up on the internet for all of his political enemies to attack?
****************************
Birfers have an explanation for everything. Birfers will tell you that the whole BC controversy was ginned up by Obama to distract attention away from what anyone having to synapses to rub together knew – that Obama, Sr. was a foreign student. This supposedly disqualifies him. Funny how not one pundit of any political stripe ever even suggested it might pose legal problems for him.
Likewise, they’ll tell you that Arthur Hinman’s allegations that C.A. Arthur was really born in Canada was a clever ploy by Arthur himself to distract attention away from Arthur’s Irish immigrant father.
I understand that the FogBow folks are planning a transcript. Also you can listen to the audio archive of the show at your convenience.
By the way, the jy fellow in the chat room is the same John,James,Tim… person banned here.
Big surprise there
That was really entertaining to listen to. I loved how defiant Tim got when it was stated that the COLB is a legitimate document. He was all over the place. Everyone is to take Tim’s word for it that he’s telling the truth, with nothing or nobody to back him up. Sound familiar?
whoever gets a link to a transcript of the show please email to Hawaii Elections Office,
as he appears to impune them,this should be of concern. They will probably have
sometihing to say abouut this nasty person!
email: elections@hawaii.gov
I sent the following email to HawaiiElections Office:
.
Many years ago while campaigning for Dan Inouye I visited the elections office and was
impressed with the way things were done, that was in the 60’s. So I was a bit upset
with a guy named Tim Adam and his comments about your office. He is riding his lies to fame
in the birther community, check this link (it will also lead to the transcript)
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/03/tim-adams-on-reality-check-radio-tonight-at-9-take-2/
note: I moved to Oregon some years back, I attended University of Hawaii 1961/1965
Those of us who follow the birther controversy, be it for genuine interest or for entertainment value, know where all the goalposts have been moved to. One problem is that whenever a very public person brings it up, they don’t seem to understand this. So we get media folks and politicians saying “he was born here” or “he is a citizen.” It seems that they never really have paid enough attention to the whole birther movement to realize that they need to say slightly more than this, or they have just added to the confusion.
At this point, I would venture to guess that there are more Donofrio / de Vattel birthers than there are Berg / Kenyan birthers. Saying “he was born here” doesn’t speak to them. Saying “he is a citizen” doesn’t speak to the basic question of *natural born* citizenship. I don’t think anyone with a mainstream audience has ever done anything to quash either the non-citizen father, two citizen parents, or dual citizenship theories. Even in birther circles, I think the Kenyan Birth / Conspiracy theory is something of a red herring.
He knew it would fuel the birther phenomenon, which would help to destroy the Republican Party.
Abercrombie was punk’d by Obama – he was not an insider. Look at his behavior; trying to do a favor for Obama (by removing an issue that could cause troubles in the re-election campaign), Abercrombie stumbled upon the evidence that Obama does not have a long form birth certificate from Kapiolani.
Given the fact that Abercrombie was the one to announce the Kapiolani hospital as Obama’s birthplace (presented the White House letter to Kapiolani), he must have been shocked to find out that evidence for Obama’s birth registration was something “actually written”.
Then the big mouth stopped talking. His behavior does not fit the official birthplace story.
*sigh* There you go again with your lies, NC1.
The whole Abercrombie saga has been explained to you mulitple times, but you keep telling the same twisted lies about it.
One more time, here’s the truth:
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/114401004.html
> His behavior does not fit the official birthplace story.
Drawing inferences from someone’s behaviour is extremely likely to be tainted by confirmation bias.
In German, we have a nice word for that: “hineingeheimnissen”, literally translated as “putting secrets into it”, figuratively translated as “seeing evil where there is none”.
It’s like saying “my neighbour goes into his cellar every night for two hours, very suspicious, he must have kidnapped someone he’s keeping down there” when in reality he is just playing table tennis against the wall.
So, it’s pretty obvious. Anonymous poster Naturalized Citizen aka NC1 is Birther Queen Orly Taitz. Horrific eye makeup and all.
You seee? The fact that he is NOT doing what we expect and following the law MEANS HE IS PART OF THE CONSPIRICYYYY. Just like if he broke the law and released the records would mean that Obama campaign was desperate and HE IS PART OF THE CONSPIRACY. Just as if he did nothing would mean HE IS PART OF THE CONSPIRACYYYY.
Look hes eating shrimp for lunch. THAT MEANS HE IS PART OF THE CONSPIRACY!
I’m convinced. 😉
No fut I mean to chat. I got into the chatroom late and got into a bout with squeeky. It was funny though she shut up.
Doc
Thanks for calling in last night. Your knowledge of birth records is a great resource. I thought the discussion about different forms of Hawaiian birth certificates was one of the interesting parts of the program.
Can you believe that Tim Adam’s could definitely dismiss the authenticity of Obama’s COLB yet claim he has never viewed the images on FactCheck? I am struggling to find an analogy to that but I will try. It is like someone claiming they are an expert on the abortion issue saying they have never read the opinion in Roe v Wade.
I’m still trying to figure out how you spin the phrase “actually written” into anything sinister. I try to let the crazy, paranoid man in my brain take over for a few minutes now and then to try and figure this out, but all either of us can make out if it is an affirmation that evidence for the birth registration was put into some sort of paper via the use of ink or possibly graphite.
Repeating your fanciful lies over and over do not make them less true. Come back when you have some real evidence. Not fairy tales.
It would be fun to Polarik the handwritten document, say to show that it was filled out with a Parker 51 versus a “Skilcraft – US Government”.
I might be revealing my age here, so I should shut up now.
She’s Lady Gaga’s mother, you know.
According to the Bible, eating shrimp is an abomination, and Obama Nation is the title of Cori’s book. It all fits.
I’ve been maintaining that for the last two years, especially after NC’s predecessor on another site went ballistic when I made a comment about Orly being a bad dentist.
I listened to the archive until a little bit after Doc C came on. I couldn’t take any more of that Adams nutcase. More power to those who could stomach the whole thing.
She hasn’t proved she isn’t Orly so it must be true. 😉
Bad dentist, bad lawyer, bad mother, bad wife, bad American but decent con artist like a few other desperate birthers.
It was classic the way Tim Adams acted when confronted with the truth. Doc read him the statement about the Health Dir actually seeing the original birth certificate and Tim desperately wanted it to mean something else. It was pointed out that people (Abercrombie included) remembers Obama being born, but Tim wanted Ambercrombie to witness the birth. Tim says nobody LIVING remembers his birth which conveniently rules out Dr. Rodney West. Getting him to back up his own story with anything verifiable was like getting Lucas Smith to back up his trip to Kenya: silence.
I think all us interviewers were dumbfounded by the audacity of his false statements.
I like the part where Mimi confronted him about his racist statements on his blog. At first he claimed it wasn’t him then when confronted the dates on the blog match other posts he made on his myspace the same day he started backpedalling. What got me was when he started talking and asked the question “Is this racist”. Usually if you have to ask then yeah it is.
Are you a US citizen?
I’m close in age to Obama. Like him, I’m the oldest sibling and my parents are dead. I guess that means I don’t exist
Adams made a claim that there were two birth certificate forms to be filled out in 1961 — one for hospitals and one for home births. He claims to have seen these two forms. It is plausible that in his job he saw lots of birth certificates; however, nothing I know about was ever published suggesting there were two forms. The 1961 “long form” has all the items on it necessary for a home birth, so I don’t see the need for a second form.
Obama’s COLB, being a standard form of birth certificate in Hawaii since 2001, must have been something that someone who handled birth certificates for a living must have seen day in and day out.
Are you?
Why is this the first time I’ve heard him make this claim?
NC1, you agree that Obama is a United States Citizen, and proved it as well…
You’ve said that you believe that it is “very likely” that Obama was born in Hawaii. Very likely is over the Preponderance of the Evidence threshhold that the Federal Government uses for citizenship. There is no standard of Beyond a Shadow of a Doubt.
Therefore, you believe that Obama has proven his citizenship. Furthermore, considering the definition of Natural Born includes (with minor exceptions) everybody who was born in the United States, you also believe that Obama has proven that he’s a Natural Born Citizen.
So, I’ll be expecting to hear you say that Obama has proven that he is a Natural Born Citizen in your next post.
I was struck by how he emphatically embraced some brither memes (to the point of refusing to believe it when his errors were corrected even though his lack of knowledge regarding those issues showed him to be, shall we say, less than credible…) while refusing to touch others with a 10′ pole. At this point I wonder if he’s a stealth birther (who thinks that if he says that he believes that the president was eligible [although not born in Hawai’i] then people wont object to the issue being raised* and the birthers will be able to sneak a law or court case through and evict da ebil ‘surper…) or if he’s just some schmuck who heard (or made up) fallacious office gossip.
*I could see a brither reasoning thusly: Since all the obots care about is protecting their messiah, I wont attack him directly, but instead I’ll advocate for action while pretending that it wont affect President Obama [replace with pet derogatory term for the president] and the silly obots wont understand until he’s being frogmarched out of the White House…
You know what’s funny is I was typing in the comment box a question about him wanting to protest Obama’s Grandma’s funeral with the Westboro Baptist church and before I could hit send, Mimi asked him about that very thing!
Let me preface these remarks by saying that I have no reservations about accepting the validity of Obama’s COLB.
This discussion about whether or not a birth certificate exists is beside the point, really. The real point is whether or not a person meets the Constitutional eligibility requirements. There are lots of people in the U.S. who are NBC and possibly don’t have a BC. Possibly their birth was not registered (yes, I personally know of a case), or maybe the records have been lost. The only question re eligibility is how to prove eligibility. We are falling back on a state document, but if that didn’t exist there are, undoubtedly, other ways to exhibit the necessary proof. Whatever proof President Obama showed the DoS to get his passport shows that there was adequate proof at that time. Any other discussion is a waste of time.
Are you a liar?
It was somebody else, not me who said that. I do not believe it is very likely that Obama was born in Hawaii. I believe that his birth was registered in Hawaii (fraudulently reported as unattended home birth).
I’ve been saying it on this blog for a long time – before Tim Adams went public and before Abercrombie mentioned “written down” thing.
Are there any known, published Hawai’i birth certificates (from any era) that resulted from home births? A long form (like the Nordyke twins’) showing a home birth would put a hole the size of a battleship in Mr. Adams’ story… (By the way, if the birthers where really the honest truth seekers they portray themselves as, they would have searched high and low for such a document already…
Dr. C admitted (few weeks ago) that unattended birth registration document would be considered original birth certificate or original vital record.
DoH officials never publicly admitted that birth certificate originated at Kapiolani. They left it to your imagination.
Since I didn’t listen to the whole show, did anyone ask Tim what his reaction would be if Obama releases his original birth certificate?
Hospitals dont give out birth certificats.
And any Birth registration document would have long since been destroyed same as any other document a hospital had, leaving the records in the state depet.
If Obama was born at home, he is a natural born citizen and out point is made.
That the roblem with birthers. to believe what they do they have to rune a pingpong of contradictory beliefs that have them changing their story every 5 seconds “maybe this is true, maybe that. doesn’t matter Obama is not eligible for reasons that will be found TOMORROW!. No I dont know what they are but the evidence is coming. Did you see the latest Rasmussen poll?”
“They left it to your imagination”
what an imagination nc1 has.
too bad imagination can’t remove Obama!
nc1-I’m still waiting for your story on how Baby Obama supposedly got home from Kenya. Remember, if he gets a US passport or gets added to his mother’s at the consulate than he is a US citizen without needing a fraudulent b.c. If they use the fraudulent b.c., then how do they explain how this baby born in Hawaii got to Kenya with no passport or endorsement in his mother’s passport? And if they use a UK passport, then he needs a visa of which there would be records and which would preclude him getting a US passport later on.
As Desi Arnaz used to say to Lucy, “Joo got some splainin to do”
Let’s entertain your fantasy for a minute, and assume that Obama’s “long form” birth record is found and it shows an unattended home birth.
So what? How would that make him ineligible to be President? It doesn’t matter if he was born in a hospital or on the beach at Waikiki, he still was born in the United States.
No matter if you were given unfettered access to Hawaii DOH records, you still have to come up with proof that Obama was born somewhere outside of the U.S. How do you plan to do that?
How does anyone prove an unattended home birth 50 years later and why would a Republican Governor who endorsed and campaigned for John McCain and gave one of Sarah Palin’s endorsement speeches name Kapi’olani Hosptial as Obama’s birthplace?
“…the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact.” “It’s been established. He was born here.”
-Former Governor Linda Lingle (R-HI).
I already proved (see multiple posts, includiing above) that he couldn’t have been born outside the US and been able to get a passport or enndorsement to enter the US.
That leaves the following options:
1. Hospital birth in Hawaii.
2. Home birth in Hawaii.
3. Birth in one of the other 49 states.
In all 3 cases he’s eligible. In case 3 the b.c. would be wrong, but i’m waiting to hear why one would register a birth in Washington or Kansas or some other state as having ocurred in Hawaii,
Hey what’s this I keep hearing about Ann Dunham being confirmed to be in Seattle in late August 1961?
he said that’s what he wants him to do. He said any discrepancy would be minor and he figured people would just go “oh, ok” he said he would go home and leave the whole thing at that point, but acknowledged that only a small percentage of birthers would
Adams said a couple of times that “if Obama would release his long form this would all be over.” I challenged it on that because my take is that over half of the remaining birthers think an NBC must have two citizen parents and half of the rest would not believe the document is real. So it would be an exercise in futility.
Her transcript shows ‘extension’ courses beginning in late August/early September – birthers believe that these courses were on campus, but rational people acknowledge that they could have been off-campus or correspondence courses… (or on campus).
The evening didn’t start well for Mr. Adams. He claimed that in the interview with James Edwards on The Political Cesspool that he tried to correct their use of the term “Chief Elections Clerk”. I played a clip where that is exactly the term he used to describe his own position at the beginning of the interview. He has since corrected that and said on the show that he was a “Senior Elections Clerk”.
For what purpose?
Adams also commented about a theft of absentee ballots. But he left in August. Wouldn’t August have been a bit early to be sending in ballots???
Adams mentioned he left in Sept. His supervisor says Aug. Guess which one I believe more.
Didn’t his myspace claim he left in july? or went on leave in June and never returned?
Extension courses where? If they were on a campus in the United States, wouldn’t that hurt the birther’s viewpoint? I’m confused.
When thinking about Tim’s stories, Swiss cheese comes to mind.
Or maybe Limburger.
The birthers’ theories are so convoluted already (a clear violation of Ockham’s razor…) that I can’t say what hurts their viewpoint more (when someone is being killed with a minigun, it’s kind of hard to say which bullet did the job…). As I understand it, extension classes could have been:
1. Night classes (in Seattle)
2. Classes at a another location (no idea if they had a Honolulu campus, but it doesn’t seem impossible…)
3. Correspondence courses (which would at least strongly favor the hypothesis that she was in the US in the fall…)
Two of her hi
According to this article, two of her high school friends (she graduated from high school in the Seattle area) remember her being there with her baby in late August. http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=8926
She had an apartment in Seattle, which would not make sense if you were taking courses by mail and your husband and parents were in Hawaii. State universities have extension campuses within their state, but not in other states. The article says she attended the extension campus at night.
The main point is she was in the US with her baby. The birthers have yet to explain how she accompliished the paperwork needed to do that if she had given birth in Kenya.
You just made my point. When confronted with the truth, the goal posts get moved.
You think that just maybe, they didn’t do that because it would be a violation of the laws of Hawaii?
Just to let you all know, we are working on the transcript but it won’t be completed until late tonight at the earliest.
My daughter believes in the Easter bunny…amazing the silly things one believes when you don’t require any proof.
May be they just figured that since the only thing that matters is place of birth, that’s all they needed to talk about.
I’m lost. What’s the birther hypothesis on the COLB? That Obama was born in Kenya, but a relative called the Hawaii Department of Health, said “Hey. I just had a baby in Honolulu. Trust me. Gimme a birth certificate.” to which the DoH said “Okay here you go.”
Or is it that Barack Obama was born in Kenya and released a forged Hawaii birth certificate during the campaign?
It seems they believe he was born in Kenya and a fraudulent b.c. was issued way back when so he could be a US citizen. Aside from the fact that there isn’t even a molecule of evidence to support that, their bigger issue is weaviing it into a coherent story:
1. Why did Ms Dunham go to Kenya?
2. How did she pay for the trip?
3. How did she get travel documents to return to the US with her baby? If she got a passport using the Hawaiian b.c., she would have to explain how the child got to Kenya without a passport in the first place.
For 1 they have a lot of hand-waving about how Obama Sr “wanted his child born in Kenya”. There is no document of his stating that nor of any other Kenyan student in a similar situation saying that or acting upon that.
For 2 they haven’t a clue how an unemployed 18 year old from a family of modest means married to a poor third world student who needed a scholarship to come to the US in the first place could afford it.
3, they won’t even touch.
All of the above, and then some.
You forget–Obama is Soros’ evil messiah baby. Probably grown in a lab and implanted in his mother.
So Soros paid for everything.
And he wanted the baby born in Kenya to absorb the Mau Mau influence at the earliest age possible.
And the Easter Bunny will rip your spleen out and eat it if you’re not careful.
Also a big one how did a visibly pregnant woman travel to a country that she would have needed vacinations for. There’s also her being so far along that she wouldn’t be allowed on the plane.
One birther made a new theory. That they were in “Africa” the whole time and Obama Sr got her pregnant in “Africa” then they came to Hawaii.
I should go try and get a Hawaii birth certificate for my son. According to birthers, getting a birth certificate should be easy, and not at all hampered by these two facts:
1) I’ve never been to Hawaii.
2) I don’t have any children.
And I not only believe you are a fool, but I have supporting evidence documented by you.
Stop making excuses you’re obviously hiding something
Soros wasn’t rich in 1961. He made his money in the 1970s and 80s.
Obama Sr was enrolled at U Hawaii for the sprring semester of 1961. Then they still have the problem of getting the baby from Africa to the US. You can’t use a piece of paper that says the baby was born in Hawaii to get a passport in Kenya without explaining how the baby got to Kenya without a passport. Let’s see them solve that one.
“Just to let you all know, we are working on the transcript but it won’t be completed until late tonight at the earliest.”
Thank you, I will forward it as soon as it’s available, they should know what this lying sack of pupu is saying,
any answer I get I will forward to Adam’s employer!
Hell, I’d still like to meet the birther smart enough to solve two plus two.
Who here loved Tim Adams’ red herrings?
Well, finally had the chance to listen to the whole RC Radio exchange online in the background while working.
A few summary comments I want to make:
1. Thanks to caller Mimi, we have learned that Tim appears to be a PUMA. That explains a lot. I won’t even get into his other issues where he flirts with racism & support of the Westboro Baptist church. I think that evidence speaks for itself. I think Tim is a person with internal conflicts and struggles who goes back and forth from projecting his frustrations onto various bogeymen in episodes of expressed bigotry to trying to rise back above such issues…
2. His whole story and claims still smacks of being made up and then trying to dig in to defend it – probably more for the purposes of he’d rather double down on the lie than come out and admit to all of his embellishments. His whole refusal to identify anyone who can corroborate his story indicates to me that he knows he can’t and desperately wants to be able to tell his tale without outing anyone that could call him out on his whoppers. I’m surprised to hear him call Fukino a liar… but I think that is part of his defense mechanism kicking in and trying to trash any authority that disproves his bunk.
3. As with most tellers of tall tales, they tend to then embellish the story of the “aftermath” that results from their story. Why, because they justify their whoppers by making themselves into a victim. I found his claims of his phone being tapped, receiving violent threats and that his residence was ransacked to be highly suspect whoppers or extreme exaggerations at best. He never did get back to explaining those wild claims and I think the veracity of these “victimhood” claims need to be pushed next time anyone talks to him or does research on his story. I’d really like to hear who he claims ransacked his place…
4. His need to overstate his authority and his position also seems to be a classical theme amongst liars. By making himself look more important than he was and speaking with a tone of condescending authority, he’s trying to diminish anyone else’s ability to question his story or push for proof.
5. Even his own timeline as a clerk continues to trouble me. From his interview, he defended his position and title as being important and tried to make it look more authoritative than a mere temp position by first explaining the contracted position as being something that is contracted for a YEAR term to oversee the temp positions and also indicating that the contractor can renew annually.
Yet, in his timeline on RC’s interview, he claimed he only worked there from MAY 2008 – SEPT 2008 and that HE chose to leave the position – first stating reasons of having to go back to class and then claiming he chose not to come back, because of some vague accusations against the people and manner in which that office runs…(despite their wanting him back…yeah, right). Basically, he’s trying to claim a moral high ground and accuse the agency he worked for (sorry “temped for”) of various levels of incompetence, unprofessionalism and worse.
HOWEVER, in the clip RC played from his original interview, he stated he left in AUGUST of 2008…. so, already a contradiction to his above stated timeline…which in and of itself doesn’t jive with why he would be hired for a position intended to be a full YEAR contract only to leave it completely after 3-4 months.
If he had fall classes or intent to go back to school in the fall, that would have been pretty well known by the time he was hired and started…. so why would anyone chose to hire him for this supposedly “important” contract position, while knowing he’d likely only be there for a few months and not even able to stay through to the election.
I just don’t buy it. More than likely, his title and position were nothing but a low level “seasonal temp” position. Do such positions exist where one class of seasonal temp is put in charge of other even lower-level seasonal temps? Yes. That is most likely what this is and he’s making it out to be something much greater than it ever was in order to claim authority, prestige and access that he NEVER had in the first place.
Furthermore, if I remember correctly, intial investigations into his story turned up that he was already ON LEAVE (and indicated he had been for quite some time…likely a matter of weeks instead of just a few days) when the decision to end his “employment” in AUGUST 2008 occurred.
So, this brings up a few more important issues of the timeline that need further clarifcation:
* Exactly HOW MUCH did he actually work for that agency in the first place? Not just when he started and when he “left”, but any times he was “OFF” or “ON LEAVE” need to be removed from that equation. This really cuts into how much he really did there or could have spent time accessing.
* WHAT were the real reasons he was “ON LEAVE”?
* What were the real reasons behind his employment there coming to an end? (There are many situations in which a person who would otherwise be fired or terminated is given the chance to voluntarily quit)
G like I said before his myspace blog mentioned he went on leave in June or July from what I remember and he never went back. Claiming that his colleagues were mean to him or something. So he wasn’t even there but for 2-3 before being fired.
Again, you’re missing the true, insidious nature of it all. Soros only pretended to make all of his money more recently. I’m sure the Illuminati helped as well. And don’t forget the Knights Templar. Not to mention that, considering the degraded intellectual strains from which birtherism derives, if you push them, the Jews in general surely had to be involved. They always are in the lizard brain.
People determined to believe this are immune to facts because… EVERYONE’S IN ON IT!!
As I understand birhter reasoning, this shouldn’t take more than a couple of days (a week tops…) so you’re not giving us much time to prepare – after all, it takes at least two days to get a message back from Soros Central…
> His whole refusal to identify anyone who can corroborate his story indicates to me that he knows he can’t
And again you (don’t) wonder why the birthers don’t hold him to the same standards as the Hawaiian DoH. The latter has to triple-double-re-verify-re-confirm anything while they give Adams a free pass on “some anonymous guy told me and that’s it”.
> after all, it takes at least two days to get a message back from Soros Central
Less if you’ve got the Platinum Obot Card. I just hope no-one finds out I’m not eligible for it and just fished it out of my neighbour’s dustbin…
Thanks for the reminder.
Do we even know WHEN his start date in May was? End of May is big difference from start of May (and would be closer to matching when school’s let out). If he went (or was put on) “leave” as early as sometime in JUNE…
…Heck, that means he was barely there long enough to learn the ropes! Either way, we’re looking at an actual work span of a month or several AT BEST…
Talk about being a TEMP!
This sounds like Tim is nothing more than a disgruntled low-end worker with a host of personal issues and delusions of grandeur who got caught making up stories to take out his frustrations and blame others for his own problems and failures. Now he’s merely doubling down on his whoppers in order to hold onto the sense of “recognition” he gets from his infamy… sadly, it is probably the only way he can pretend that he’s “important”.
Doc C – whe, I’ve done, would you mind casting your eye over the section of the transcript I’m doing?
Just the part where you and Adams are talking about various BC’s, which is probably about 15 minutes long? You might be able to fill in a couple of gaps.
You have my email or we could do it via pm at The Fogbow, if you prefer. ..
They’re going to figure it out pretty quickly if you keep saying things like “my neighbour’s dustbin” – that’s furrin talkin’, that is…
Well, it’s entirely clear that you are an agent of the New World Order sent to allay suspicion…
Neither do I. I consider it a certainty, personally, and at the very least, a fact in any legal sense.
Well we’ll be sure to give your unfounded, spurious and puerile beliefs all the consideration they deserve.
Now don’t go thinking your being persecuted. I’m not treating you any different from the flat earthers, or the chem trailers, or any other conspiracy nutbag.
Is he in the same gene pool as convicted forger I, Lucas D. Smith?
He was only there from May to July, maybe August? When did the President first post his COLB and when did it start to become an issue? Is it possible Mr. Smith wasn’t even there when it became a big deal?
I’m leading the New World Order. Who’s with me?
Don’t forget that once he went “on leave” for whatever mysterious reasons, he was no longer working there. That means his actual work there actually ended in either June or July. Until we get confirmation on his start date, it is quite probable that his May start was actually towards the END of that month, depending on when his schooling let out.
So, that really puts his “tenure” as a TEMP in terms closer to a small handful of weeks instead of months…
In terms of Obama’s BC, the reporting on it really didn’t get going until June 2008 and birtherism really didn’t begin until Berg made it into an issue…which I think began around August of 2008.
So there would not have been all the inquires that would lead someone to contact the hospitals or DOH. That’s funny.
Good point!!
Tim’s timeline really doesn’t match up well at all, when you take that into consideration. I think you are on to something important here with that observation….yet another major believability problem with his story.
Why go to the expense of traveling to Hawaii? Airfares are astronomical. According to the birthers you can just phone in your would-be son’s home birth.
A bit longer quote :
” …and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii….”
Please show me the link to this press-release. Did she lie about it?
“Please show me the link to this press-release. Did she lie about it?”
OK, here’s a link that also contains links to Lingle’s radio interview plus a link to transceripts.
why do you think a Republican Govoner lied? My take is you lied
http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/05/hawaii-gov-linda-lingle-declares-obama.html
I was asking for a link to DoH press-release where the birth hospital was mentioned. You did not provide it.
Let’s quote the story from the link you provided:
“…Although the governor now claims she issued a news release stating Kapi’olani is Obama’s birthplace, the actual release said no such thing, making no reference to Kapi’olani nor any other specific location of Obama’s birth.”
Did she lie?
No, she misspoke.
Of course, nc1 never gives anyone the benefit of the doubt, even believing that if somehow Obama was actually born at home, not the hospital, then Obama is guilty of lying all these years, instead of having been lied to himself from childhood on. Because he should remember his own birth.
It is a well-known, settled fact that Obama was born at Kapi’olani. He wrote a fund raising letter for them mentioning his birth there, and they published it.
It’s settled, nc1.
US or German citizen? Why are you hiding this information?
So far we have a French, Irish and most likely a German citizen commenting on internal US politics.
Dr. C ought to put a little flag next to the poster’s alias. It would help others understand when we are dealing with foreigners.
I did not see you correcting the original poster (Joey) who used part of Lingle’s false statement to claim that Obama’s birth in Kapiolani was officially confirmed.
’cause we all know how foreigners frighten you.
Since Governor Lingle was at the Kapiolani event where Governor Abercrombie read President Obama’s letter, the reasonable assumption is that she conflated the statements of DOH officials (confirming President Obama’s birth in Hawai’i) with something she knew to be true (that he was born at Kapiolani). Seeing as how only total wackjobs would try to ascribe nefarious motives to her slip of the tongue and no explanation has been given for why she would have made the statement if it wasn’t accidental…
Don’t tell me you are another foreigner on this blog, LOL!
1.Your obsession with registration #s from 50 years ago is foreign to 99.9999% of human beings. Are you sure you are human?
2. Since you said LOL, I demand proof that you actually laughed out loud. I doubt you did. In fact, I doubt that anyone who types LOL is actually laughing out loud.
Personally, I think its really sad that ‘foreigners’ know more about American history, American Law and have a greater respect for American traditions than those who call themselves real Americans, like you.
I think it would be more helpful if he placed the estimated IQ of the commenter based on their history. You know like
61 nc1 (just for example)
More supposition an desperate reaching by Nancy.
He/she/it makes the assumption (as is her inevitable way) on zero actual information.
Someone says they may be in Germany, Nancy immediately jumps to the unfounded conclusion the poster is furrin and German.
The individual could be from any European nationality living in Germany
The induvidual may be an American living in Germany
The individual may be a member of the US miltary based in Germany
The individual may be residing in the US who used to live in Germany
The individual may be from a German American family where German was spoken
The individual may be a German school teacher
etc
etc
Typical Birfoon, never mind the point already made that so what if the individual us a German….who has a substantially better grasp of reality an US law than Nancy
Bist Du Deutscher, Magic M? Ich habe ehemals Germanistik studiert, und habe in Deutschland gewohnt (Baden-Württemberg; nicht im Ländle, aber auch nicht so weit weg). Wo kommste her?
Wow, xenophobic fear from a birther. I did not see that coming.
Since you fear foreigners and only want to accept information from “True Americans,” I think I can help you. My father’s side in America traces back to Virginia over 300 years ago (and even to the same general area as Washington). That must make me a Super-Dooper Natural Born Citizen. Therefore, you do not have to fear my middle-aged True Americanness, so…
Where is the evidence I ask for that shows Obama was born elsewhere? If you do not have it, why do you keep lying about what Hawaii does or does not have?
Note: In attempt at full disclosure, some of my mother’s side is a much later arrival (beyond the very early Massachusetts part). The latest arrival was a late as only 200 years ago.
NC1 is a Naturalized Citizen. She has made it known she is a desperate, foreign born birther troll with zero respect for U.S. laws.
She hasn’t proven she’s not Orly Taitz, incompetent dentist and inept, amateurish mail order lawyer.
You forgot: some other damn furrigner who speaks German. Austrian, Swiss, Liechtensteiner, Belgian or Italian and even Polish, Russian or French.
I have no problem with the Belgian and/or German flag following my name (same colors anyway). Provided nc1’s name is followed by both the Old Yugoslav flag (the one with the red star) and the Old Prussin flag. since he believes the US constitution was written by Emmerich Van Wattel.
And contrary to what nc1’s friends in the USA may think, the flag of Prussia was never blue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Prussia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue
nc1 “Let’s quote the story from the link you provided::
that link was to a idiot birther site, you don’t seem to understand satire!
are you dumb or just acting?
Northland10: Wow, xenophobic fear from a birther.I did not see that coming.
Since you fear foreigners and only want to accept information from “True Americans,” I think I can help you.My father’s side in America traces back to Virginia over 300 years ago (and even to the same general area as Washington).That must make me a Super-Dooper Natural Born Citizen.Therefore, you do not have to fear my middle-aged True Americanness, so…
Where is the evidence I ask for that shows Obama was born elsewhere?If you do not have it, why do you keep lying about what Hawaii does or does not have?
Note:In attempt at full disclosure, some of my mother’s side is a much later arrival (beyond the very early Massachusetts part).The latest arrival was a late as only 200 years ago.
1. There is nothing xenofobic in making comments about so many foreigners being regular posters on this blog. Why should I waste my time debating people who are not interested in finding truth about Obama and have no direct interest in US elections? I understand that it may be appealing to many foreigners to see Obama travelling around the world appologizing to everyone and bowing to Saudi king and the Emperor of Japan.
2. The better question is – where is the proof that Obama was born in the US? A presidential candidate should prove the eligibility in order to be placed on the ballot. Rather than chasing the evidence in a foreign country trying to prove that he was born abroad, it should be much simpler to discover whether he was born in the USA. There are documents in US archives that would tell us for sure. The problem is – government officials are corrupted, they have prevented the release of public documents.
We are left to make conclusions based on circumstantial evidence. The AP assigned 11 investigators to fact check Palin’s book yet they have one person reporting Okubo’s lies without doing proper investigation himself.
If the official birthplace story were true – neither DoH nor Obama nor the main stream media journalists would behave the way they do. They attack Trump while letting Abercrombie, Lingle, Fukino off the hook.
If there was nothing to hide the long form certificate (Nordyke type) would have been published long time ago.
You know what we call circumstantial evidence in the law? Evidence.
There is sufficient evidence to prove Obama was born here. The COLB, the newspaper reports, the 1967 State Department memo, etc.
Know how we know the evidence was sufficient? President Obama. Not Senator Obama – President Obama. You don’t think the evidence is sufficient? Don’t vote for him.
When you complain about Obama traveling the world “apologizing,” you reveal your true concerns. Obama’s real crime? He has a D after his name.
So, stop wasting your time arguing here. Bye.
Obama’s parents never lived at the address mentioned in the newspaper annpuncement. This was address where grandparents used to rent a house.
The COLB is incompatible with the Kapiolani birth story. The registration number and Date Filed do not fit with the facts shown on Nordyke certificates. DoH refuses to confirm the issuing of COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. They also refuse to issue birth index when the request for index included both: name and the registration number.
What does 1967 memo prove?
The relevant passport records for Obama’s mother are hidden from public. The most recent document that was published was an application for renewal of her passport. That indicates existence of prior passport records in her file.
Which previous President or candidate did so to your satisfaction? List the actual evidence they showed.
It’s perfectly compatible with a birth there or anywhere else in Honolulu. .
You said you weren’t going to argue with foreigners. Please leave. NOW.
Speculation and hypothesis does not equal evidence, not even circumstantial evidence.
The COLB says he was born in Hawaii. The newspapers are consistent with birth in Hawaii. Plus there is NO evidence Obama was born anywhere but Hawaii!
You’re a foreigner to begin with so what’s your problem with foreigners?
Here is Reagan’s birth certificate http://www.safeguardourconstitution.com/news/reagans-birth-certificate.html
It says he was born in Fulton, IL. Where in Fulton, IL? I have no idea
It was signed by a doctor in 1942. He was born in 1911. Do you think a doctor remembers a birth from 31 years before? If he had to testify in court, they’d make mincemeat out of him.
Do the registration #s match someone else born around the same time.? Ihave no idea.
The odds Barack Obama was born in Honolulu. >99%
The odds Ronald Reagan was born in Fulton, IL. Maybe 50%
Does this mean we can all ignore MichealN (Australian and living in Australia)
Oops hes one of NC1s only allies, so that makes him ok.
So that means the 2 major birthers on the board are in actuality foreigners, one to the right wing and the other actoss the pacific. How ironic.
“nc1: The COLB is incompatible with the Kapiolani birth story.”
my daughter was born at Queen Kapio’lani in 1965, her current COLB looks just like Obamas, she has traveled to Okinawa 4 times with a passport issued with her COLB as proof of birth. So you say all this is incompitible! You really state some stupid stuff!
if you don’t like Obama, don’t vote for him, this silly birther stuff goes no where, does this affect your family life, do they laugh at you?
So, Obama’s grandparents rented a house at that address at the time, correct? Does that mean that Obama’s mother would have lived at that house, with her parents, being an 18-year-old kid who had just graduated High School, and in the summer before high school and college? Is it possible that it’s the address that she gave as her permenant address instead of a temporary apartment that her husband occupied probably with enough people that there wasn’t really room for a wife and child? Nah, that could never be the situation.
I’ve come up with multiple reasonable scenarios which explain the numbering. One of which is that the numbering is assigned on a Friday. Obama was born towards the end of the Tuesday batch being sent over. They’re laid down on the bottom of the stack. Then on Friday, the stack is brought over, and the entire process for the week is run through. That would give Barack Obama’s birth certificate a Tuesday “date filed” and yet have a larger number than the Nordyke’s birth certificate, which has a Friday “date filed”. You make assumptions there that you cannot verify as part of the process, and then claim that because of your assumptions, the facts don’t fit as part of the scenario. I’ve given you a situation where all the facts happen as part of the scenario. And yet, you ignore it, and dismiss it.
9
It proves that the State Department said that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii over 40 years before Obama would be running for President. You don’t see the significance of that? Oh, that’s right. You believe that the mother and grandmother went into some sort of blatent forgery scene for the sole reason of 50 years down the road being able to run for President. You believe that they spent thousands of dollars (in those days, not today’s money) to send their only daughter half-way around the world when the daughter was between 7 and 9 months pregenant to visit Obama Sr.’s family without Obama Sr, and then went 300 miles in the opposite direction of Obama Sr.’s home village, to give birth in a town that had no better access to health care, or hospitals than the capital city of Kenya, and offer no explaination as to why she’d do this… Only thing that Mombasa had that Niarobi didn’t was a sea port… But Dunham has been confirmed to be places too quickly to have traveled by ship.
Funny, you do not put the same need for every detail to be precisely correct towards your theory of a Foreign Birth that you apply to the Hawaii Birth.
A passport that would have been issued somewhere around 1965, when Dunham was looking to move to Indonesia. There is absolutely no evidence that Dunham had a passport prior to 1965.
Hey don’t forget she would have had to drop in on Obama Sr.’s other wife for tea and crumpets.
This is odd. Both you and two banned commenters made essentially the same false claim on the same day.
This is where I get to show the evidence and call you an idiot, OK? I say “idiot” because this false claim was refuted by none other than WorldNetDaily way back in August of 2009.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/08/birth-announcement-address-confirmed/
President Eisenhower was supposedly born in Denison, Texas on Oct. 14, 1890. A birth certificate was filed for him on Wednesday, Oct. 1, 1952 in the Grayson County Clerk’s office.
Nobody had bothered to make out a certificate when the Republican presidential candidate was born in a house at the corner of Lamar and Day streets in Denison.
“A copy of the certificate filed in October of 1952 was mailed to Mrs. Eisenhower in Denver. President Eisenhower’s older brother, Arthur, signed the certificate. It was also signed by the Grayson County Judge J.N. Dickson and recorded by County Clerk J.C. Buchanan.”
President Eisenhower’s birth certificate was registered on the basis of hearsay from 62 years later.
President Reagan use to talk about the ancestral home in Ireland. He even visited it while President. In fact, he went to Ireland on a numer of occasions even before his political career.
There is a simple explaination for the late dates on the birth certificates.
President Reagan was signed by Warner Bros studios in 1937. As his career began to take off, he began to play a lot of patriotic roles including the famous George Gipp in the “Knute Rockne, All American”. During the early part of the war, he did patriot narrations. When Warner Bros found out that the all-American boy was actually born in Ireland, they panicked and hastily created the story of birth in a second story commercial building (doesn’t that sound like a Hollywood movie) and then got the registrar from the state of Illinios and a doctor to sign a BC. But the doctor and registrar screwed up and inadvertently signed the current date and instad of backdating it. No plan is perfect.
So there it is President Reagan, the first foreign born President. Hopefully he won’t be the last.
Hear, hear. Enough of this racist, lying, trolling POS.
Is the president embarrassing himself to the U.S. and the world by being a sycophant to a foreign leader or is he being respectful and courteous?
How about here?
Here?
What about here?
Why are so many birthers not only blatant bigots but also hypocrites and liars?
Is it desperation?
“call you an idiot”
based on nc1’s posts she won’t accept anything that doesn’t help her Obama, Period!
Which is much more evidence than you have provided showing Obama was born elsewhere. If he was not born in Hawaii, he had to born elsewhere (unless you are saying he was not born and instead “came with clouds descending.”). Where is your evidence?
Are Greg and I sounding like a broken record?
Don’t. Feed. The. Trolls.
I only have one question: how did you manage to get through that entire interview without slapping this guy?
Or did you? Because I tried to listen to the whole thing, I really did, but I just couldn’t do it.
1. Do you call names Obama supporters who claim something you think is wrong?
2. What happened to your attention to details? When did Obama Sr. live at that address? I used word parents (plural) in my comment.
I will give you the benefit of a doubt – you are not a mean and deceitful person, just one with a reading comprehension problem.
You need to read my post again. It does not mention COLB format being problematic, but the data shown.
The data shown is sufficient to prove President Obama a natural born citizen in any US court – there’s no problem except in the delusions of yourself and the other birthers…
It would be a futile exercise – even if someone could come up with a foreign document placing Obama’s mother in a foreign country on August 4, 1961, you and other Obama supporters would be screaming for dismissal of foreign documents. Words spoken by high ranking Kenyan government officials are dismissed as hearsay.
Fortunately, there is no need to focus on a foreign country – it should be much easier to get hold of public documents in US archives.
The realization of how corrupt US government officials are when dealing with a trivial issue like confirmation of presidential candidates’ birthplace/eligibility for POTUS has been an eye-opening experience.
Call me naive but I did not think that such a scenario could have been possible in the USA.
Admitting that you cannot find any solid evidence?
With no evidence, you dismiss words spoken by high ranking Hawaiian officials as lies. Yet, they are in an official capacity to have access to the documents and have confirmed currently released documents.
They have confirmed he was born in Hawaii. Not providing the answer you want is not called corruption, it is called the truth. If you want to accuse others of fraud and corruption, you must provide evidence.
Well then, it is a good thing for you that such a scenario has not taken place.
To date, no-one has been able to come up with a scrap of evidence to support anything other than Obama’s mother giving birth in Hawaii. All you have is “well if there’s nothing there why hasn’t he released it?” Which is no evidence at all. And the “High Kenyan official,” singular not plural, that you are trying to push also tried to ass himself off as a close Obama relation when in fact he is no relation to the guy at all. If it was more than one guy who was trying to shore up his election chances at the time and desperately lying to get himself more popularity then we would pay more attention.
I always understood hearsay to mean a second-hand account of something, like “Joe told me that Barack Obama was born in Kenya.” The problem with the one Kenyan official who actually seems to be commenting that Obama was born in Kenya doesn’t give us the “Joe told me” part. We have no idea where the fellow got the idea from.
It’s true that I wouldn’t be impressed by a foreign document, but I would be impressed by a properly attested foreign document.
The COLB and the diplomat’s statement are both hearsay – the difference being that our court system has centuries of tradition telling them that documents out if state records with the seal of the state are likely to be true but a guy saying something on the radio (which he disclaims the next day) doesn’t have any such indicia of reliability.
But, it’s pretty impressive how you throw up your hands before even trying to give any evidence! Is this how the court system works in birther-land?
“Your honor, I concede the defendant has made out a prima favor case. But, their evidence COULD have been forged. Granted, I have no evidence they were forged. Plus, even though the evidence they’ve presented is sufficient to prove their case, there is other evidence which would be better! Finally, I’ve presented speculation and hypothesis without any evidence which would, if I presented evidence, call the veracity if the defendant’s case into question. Oh, did I mention that it would be futile to even look for evidence because you’d just dismiss it as inadmissible?”
This is why you guys are 0-73 in the court system and why Obama is addressed as Mr. President whenever he enters a room. His approval rating is near 60% now and it seems to be rising as Trump refocuses the nation on your defective reasoning. Keep it up and you’ll guarantee a second term to him.
The WSJ reports that Obama will announce his reelection campaign in the next couple of weeks.
NC1, you find it unreasonable that Obama’s mother would have given her parent’s address as her permenant address? Here’s something. Go to your local high school. Survey all the senior females. Ask them if they live with their relatives (parents, grandparents, legal guardians). If you get a less than a 90% “yes” rate, I’ll be very surprised.
Furthermore, the line off of the announcement that they took the information off of is most likely the street address found on field 7d (I believe. The images that I can find are a little unpixelated to that). So, tell me why it would matter where Obama’s father lived, if it asked for his mother’s address?
If you cannot believe that a 18-year-old mother giving birth would give the legal address of her parents, (the same address that she’s been living at) just because Obama’s father is probably renting a room at a house with 10 other college students, I don’t know what to tell you. The address in the announcement is actually confirmed.
nc1, you dismiss dozens of statements of Hawaiian Officials as being not true, despite the fact that they actually have documentary evidence backing them up? Dr. Cherome Fukino (former director of Health for Hawaii and custodian of records): Obama was born in Hawaii.
Dr. Alvin T. Onaka, State Registrar: “I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file at the Hawaii Department of Health.”
Gov. Linda Lingle: “Obama was born in Hawaii.”
Janice Okubo, spokesman for the Hawaii Department of Health: “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate.”
I could go on and on with official after official who has said that Obama was born in Hawaii, or that the birth certificate is true. You dismiss them all as being part of a vast conspiracy. Why shouldn’t we do the same to your side?
Last week I received my ballot for Ireland’s senate elections, which i have the right to vote on as I attended one of the national University of Ireland colleges. Only it did not come to my present address, it came to my parents address, because that’s the permanent address I was using when I was in college 20 odd years ago. Even though I wasn’t actually living there at the time.
And yes I can scan it to prove it if you want.
You’ve got it essentially correct. Hearsay is a legal term for an out-of-court statement, offered in court to prove the truth of the matter asserted. It’s offered by someone other than the declarant (the person who said the initial statement). While the “high ranking official” in Kenya’s statements are not truly hearsay, for them to be admitted into a court of law, and even then you’d have issues such as lack of personal knowledge to object to.
If you want further definitions, take a look at the 800 series of the Federal Rules of Evidence.
Also, any document offered to the court is hearsay. There’s a well-established hearsay exception for vital records, which is why Obama’s birth certificate (the COLB), while hearsay, is admissible. While the Bishop’s account of what Obama’s step-grandmother told him is not. Now, they could get around what Obama’s step-grandmother told him by calling the step-grandmother to the stand. However, the step-grandmother said in the same tape that Obama was born in Hawaii multiple times, so I seriously doubt that birthers are dumb enough to put her on the stand, even if they had an unlimited treasury to fly Obama’s step-grandmother over here.
I have a question about affidavids in general and the Bishop’s affidavid.
Are affidavids suppose to be statements of fact?
The Bishop’s affidavid and the affidavid of the witness in the grandmother’s house are word for word the same (from Berg’s lawsuit).
Since the Bishop was in the US and the witness was in Africa and their affidavids are describing the same event, would it be considered strange for their affidavids to the exactly the same?
I’m not a lawyer, but that certainly raises red flags in my mind – it seems to me that the most reasonable conclusion is that the two affidavits have the same source…
To start with, the so-called witness lied about his name. I can’t imagine that a document signed with a fake name will mean anything to a court. Further, if memory serves me right, the document wasn’t sworn (no notary or other official indication). As for the stories being the same, clearly there was some collusion between Ron McRae and Shuhubia. What is most troubling about the Shuhubia “affidavit” is that it contains not one detail to indicate that Shuhubia was actually present when the tape was born in Kenya. Everything he said came from the tape.
gorefan, an affidavit is suppose to be basically a written statement from a paticular person. It’s theoretically suppose to be in the person’s own words. Two affidavits that were word-for-word the same would cause incredible problems for me, because no two people have the same words, even if they are describing the same events.
Of course, I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t deal with them. However, affidavits themselves are hearsay. You cannot, for instance, admit an affidavit in lieu of someone testifying (no cross-examination). And if you are able to get it in, Bishop McRae’s affidavit had hearsay within hearsay (the words of Obama’s grandmother was hearsay within hearsay).
That’s what I’m wondering about. Can people working on affidavits compare notes and work together? It’s strikes me as pretty sloppy even if it is allowed.
From the affidavit of Rev. Kweli Shuhubia:
“During the interview conversation, one of Ms. Obama’s grandsons and myself acted as Swahili translators, and as Bishop McRae talked to and questioned Ms. Obama, we would translate what Bishop McRae said to Ms. Obama in Swahili, and then we would translate her Swahili responses to Bishop McRae in English. Ms. Obama can fluently speak Swahili in her native dialect, but cannot read or write.
Bishop McRae asked Ms. Obama specifically, “Were you present when your grandson Barack Obama was born in Kenya?” This was asked to her in translation twice, and both times she specifically replied, “Yes”. It appeared Ms. Obama’s relatives and her grandson, handling the translating, had obviously been versed to counter such facts with the purported information from the American news media that Obama was born in Hawaii. Despite this, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama was very adamant that her grandson, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, was born in Kenya, and that she was present and witnessed his birth in Kenya, not the United States. When Ms. Obama’s grandson attempted to counter his grandmother’s clear responses to the question, verifying the birth of Senator Obama in Kenya, Bishop McRae asked her grandson, how she could be present at Barack Obama’s birth if the Senator was born in Hawaii, but the grandson would not answer the question, instead he repeatedly tried to insert that, “No, No, No. He was born in the United States!” But during the conversation, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama never changed her reply that she was in deed present when Senator Barack Obama was born in Kenya. A copy of the Tape transcript is attached hereto as EXHIBIT “A”.”
From the affidavit of Bishop Ronald McRae,
“In that conversation, Mr. Shuhubia and one grandson of Ms. Sarah Obama acted as Swahili translators, and as I talked to and questioned Ms. Obama, they would translate what I said to her in Swahili, and then they would translate her Swahili responses to me in English. Ms. Obama can fluently speak Swahili in her native dialect, but cannot read or write. In the ensuing conversation, I asked Ms. Obama specifically, “Were you present when your grandson Barack Obama was born in Kenya?” This was asked to her in translation twice, and both times she specifically replied, “Yes”. Though, some few younger relatives, including her grandson doing the translating, have obviously been versed to counter such facts with the common purported information from the American news media that Obama was born in Hawaii, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama was very adamant that her grandson, Senator Barack Hussein Obama, was born in Kenya, and that she was present and witnessed his birth in Kenya, not the United States. When Ms. Obama’s grandson attempted to counter his grandmother’s clear responses to the question, verifying the birth of Senator Obama in Kenya, I asked her grandson, how she could be present at Barack Obama’s birth if the Senator was born in Hawaii, but the grandson would not answer the question, instead he repeatedly tried to insert that, “No, No, No. He was born in the United States!” But during the conversation, Ms. Sarah Hussein Obama never changed her reply that she was in deed present when Senator Barack Obama was born in Kenya. A transcript of this taped interview is attached as Exhibit “6”.”
Bishop McRae talks as if he was in the room in Africa. Is filing a false affidavit a form of perjury? And what about the lawyer who filed them is he guilty of suborning perjury?
I’m not a lawyer either. I think technically swearing a knowingly false affidavit is perjury, but it’s hard to imagine that a prosecutor would bother in this case, since the testimony is not material in any court case or any proceeding. Perjury is one of the hardest crimes to prove, since it has to be knowingly false-if you’re following the Barry Bonds case, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt not just that he took steroids, but that he knowingly took them and lied about it. The “Bishop” and the “Reverend” would be almost impossinle to prosecute since they would just say they misunderstood what Sarah Obama was saying. Tim Adams would also be hard to prosecuute since his affidavit amounts to office`gossip. Lucas Smith on the hand could certainly be prosecuted, since he could hardly claim that he was mistaken when he said he went to Kenya. Of course, Lucas has confessed right here to crimes more seriious than perjury, so you’d have your pick with him.
Here’s the really ridiculous thing abour the affidavits from the “Bishop” and the “Reverend”. The only affidavit that would have any merit is Sarah Obama’s and 4 years later not a siingle whiz-bang birther attorney has bothered to get an affidavit FROM HER. The fact that she doesn’t speak English is irrelvant, since there are plenty of court-certified Luo-English translators in Kenya. No, the fact that not a single birther has ever bothered to depose her speaks volumes about the fact that they know she would totally destroy their arguments by stating clearly that the President was not born in Kenya, but in America. And for the birthers who might ask why the Obama side hasn’t deposed her: We don’t know that they haven’t done so and have it ready and waiting in the virtually inconceivable event that it were needed. But we do know with 100% certainty that if she had ever sworn an affidavit saying what the birthers would like, it would be every court filing and would be all over the internet.
I think that examples like this (or failing to appeal the Ankeny decision) of what the the birthers are NOT doing is extremely telling – it says for certain that all of the birther legal minds are either too incompetent to advance their cause (like Orly) or are aware that their cause is wrong (it is possible that Mario belongs in this category – that he is just being a zealous advocate for his client and arguing as best he can for his cause [certainly there is nothing to make me think that Mario would have any sort of ethical problem with such a scenario…]).
I don’t think not getting a deposition from Sarah Obama was incompetence, it was deliberate deception, because they knew what she would say. If there is a car accident with a single eyewitness and the attorney doesn’t speak with him, but rather speaks with his bartender and barber, it isn’t incompetence, it’s that he knows the wiitness will hurt his client’s case. Similarly not appealing Ankeny wasn’t incompetence, it was a deliberate decision based on the certainty that the Supremes would deny the appeal, thereby giving the decision more weight.
As far as whether birther attorneys believe their own nonsense, I can’t say. Mario’s behavior is not about his client whose case is long since over. His client had no iinterests in the case ever, since his client is in no way harmed by Obama’s being President. It’s about Mario’s ego. A real lawyer might blog about the law in general, but would not blog about his own cases. That would be like a general blogging about his strategy in an on-going war.
I’ve long believed that much of the incompetence of the birther attorneys is deliberate. Take Orly (please). Of course, she’s a completely useless lawyer. But look at her continual failure to serve the proper parties in the proper way. Even a beginning paralegal knows how to serve a defendant. If they don’t know the first time, they do the second time. So why does Orly keep oetting it wrong? IMO, it;s deliberate. What she wants is publicity and something to blog about. If you serve the defendants correctly, you can write about it once, and then you have to wait for their response. If you screw up service, you can write about the service, then about how the government is ignoring the lawsuit, then about the mean judge who told you your suit was invalid, then about a second attempt to serve. Then, when you lose you can claim a conspiracy. The more you F-up the better you do where it counts-attention and PayPal, It’s brilliant.
sorry typo on that Tim Adams link:
http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/tim-adams/
(may I say he is a jerk)
I think the fact that relitivly few cases actually addressed the thing that the cases kept falling down on (standing) kind of tells a lot.
You may be right – it’s hard to tease out what incompetence is real and what is intentional – I will say that, having seen some of Orly’s TV appearances, if she’s faking it she’s a GREAT actor…
A complete kneebiter.
Kenyan ambassador in the US mentioned Obama’s birthplace in Kenya. Kenyan minister of lands did the same in a speech given in their parliament last year.
Instead of talking about foreign documents it would be nice to get access to US documents that are supposed to be in public domain.
You have asked for passport records for Obama’s mother long time ago – do you think they will ever send it to you?
Did they witness the birth? You guys claim Sarah Obama did. Why no affidavit from HER?
Self-appointed bishop and anabaptist street preacher McRae.
In the same transcript no one bothered to correct assistant minister Peter Kenneth when he said the U.S. has 51 states, either (see transcript, page 68). Or assistant minister Aden Duale, when he attributed the words of Eleanor Roosevelt (“No one can make you feel inferior except with your own consent”) to her husband, President Franklin D. Roosevelt (see transcript, page 39).
Politicians say stupid incorrect stuff. News at 11.
> if she’s faking it she’s a GREAT actor
I think it’s both. Actually, a couple of celebrities (I can think of at least two in my country) became famous on the “oops, I’m such a dumb girl, but I look cute” shtick. And later it turned out most of it was fake, though a certain base level of dumbness might have been there.
As with any good comedian, the key is “exploit your weaknesses”. 😉
It is allowed, but I don’t think both affiants would survive cross-examination on such an issue. Just like two witnesses who tell the same story almost word by word. Any prosecutor and any lawyer would have a field day.
> I think technically swearing a knowingly false affidavit is perjury, but it’s hard to imagine that a prosecutor would bother in this case, since the testimony is not material in any court case or any proceeding.
It’s not an affidavit unless it’s used as such, i.e. in a court proceeding.
Otherwise it’s just a written (and possibly notarized which doesn’t add any credibility to it) statement that someone has called “affidavit”, but it’s as much an affidavit as me writing “Eleventh Commandment” on a piece of paper constitutes an amendment to the Bible.
However it’s a nice propaganda stunt for the gullible people who think that calling it an “affidavit” adds weight to its credibility because they believe you would be thrown in jail for lying in such a document.
(In my country, online shops often demand an “affidavit” from customers who claim they didn’t receive their package – carries no additional legal weight, but they obviously think people are less likely to lie if they just *believe* they’d be perjuring themselves.)
I believe the affidavits of the “Bishop” and the “Reverend” were filed by Phil Berg in his court case. They were immaterial to the outcome of the cases, but they were included in the complaint. Since the affidavits swear only to what they believe they heard, proving a deliberate lie vs a mis-hearing/mis-understanding beyond a reasonable doubt would be extraordinarily diffiicult.
I think Orly filed Lucas Smith’s fake b.c. and his affidavit as to how he supposedly got it in her cases as well. There, it would be quite easy to prove a deliberate lie, rather than a misunderstanding (he either went to Kenya or he didn’t). However, they were not material to the case, so no one would bother to prosecute.
Tim Adams’ affiidaviit has never been used and probably never will, since it effectively says nothing.
Ah, this is easily resolved. Kenya is the 51st state.
Ron McRae was present in the room in the same sense that Sarah Obama was present when Barack Obama (which?) was born. They were present on one side of the world and the event of interest was on the other.
And the Kenyan ambasador turned around the very next day and corrected his statement, and the minister of lands has never said what he based that statement on. (and have you ever paid attention to the stupd things that US congressman make? Just because a statement is made in a legislative body, doesn’t make it fact)l. And yet you ignore the statements of the Republican officials in Hawaii who have said what their statements are based upon. Actual vital records maintained by the State of Hawaii. Why do you hate America so much that you are willing to take the word of a Kenyan official that has no basis to make statements about where the President was born, but will completely dismiss the statements of officials of a State of the Union who base their statements of the vital records of Hawaii?
And you did get access to the US documents that are in the public domain. And guess what? All of those support the claim that the President was born in Hawaii too? When all evidence points to factual scenario, without an iota of evidence pointing to anything else, you don’t need to keep re-proving that once scenario. Just how many different ways does the President need to support the claim he was born in Hawaii?
Never made a FOIA claim have you? This is par for the course. You usually never get the documents on time, and you rarely get everything you thought you were asking for, because the person on the other end interpreted differently than you intended, and then you re-submit or appeal. Nothing shocking….and afterall, the documents that were released so help the birther cause too.
Poor Obama – everyone is out to get him: Kenyan ambassador, Kenyan minister of lands, Mike Evans, Tim Adams, gov. Abercrombie,…
What is the “actually written” thing mentioned by Abercrombie? What do you think about Abercrombie’s motivation not to mention the existence of long form birth certificate?
Obama should release the original birth certificate. There is nothing to hide: neither he nor his campaign lied about his birthplace, right?
*yawn* The broken record liar, NC1 repeats the same debunked nonsense, yet again.
Give it up NC1. No one buys your lies here and you’ve said every one of these concern trolling talking points multiple times in the past and been corrected endlessly. All that one can conclude at this point is that you are an intential liar.
Just wait 25 years. Once it’s 75 years old, anyone can request it. Then your vast conspiracy (where everyone is simultaneously “against” Obama, but also in on the plot – how else does the Republican governor confirm his Hawaiian birth?) will be destroyed.
Until then, you’re just a pimple on the ass of history!
Oh, and just so we’re clear, the way that Obama releases the original birth certificate is…
Obama: Hi, HI DOH? Yeah, I’ve got a strange request. I know that you guys don’t do official, certified copies of the original birth certificates anymore. Yeah, I know this because I sent in my $20 and got back the COLB. Okay, could you make an exception in my case? I AM the President of the United States. What? It would violate your regulations and laws? How do you know? Several anonymous internet trolls on various web-fora have explained at length how you don’t know your own laws and that if you read them with your head cocked at the right angle you’ll clearly see that you ARE allowed to release a certified copy of the original if I ask nicely. Well, did you cock your head to the right angle? Well, maybe you should try cocking it the other way. Your right or my right? Cock your head to my right, as if I’m looking at you instead of calling you on the red phone. No, the internet trolls won’t accept a non-certified copy of the original. I don’t know why. Because they’re trolls. Are you sure you cocked your head the right way? Did I mention that I’m the President and when I say something it trumps all state laws? How about if I send you $40 instead of the requested $20? Can I speak to your supervisor? Well, what about her supervisor? Oh, that’s Abercrombie? And the Hawaiian AG said you couldn’t release it? Did he cock his head the right way? Can I give you the web-address where nc1 explained it? Yeah, I’m not sure I get it either. As far as I can tell, the only people who can see the Hawaiian law this way are non-lawyers. Apparently, the first day you go to law school, you instantly become so corrupt that you are unable to cock your head the right way to read the law so as to allow the President the super-secret exemption to Hawaiian law. What? You didn’t go to law-school but you can’t see the super-secret exemption either? Yeah, I don’t know. nc1 doesn’t make any sense to me.
Yeah, in the real world, nc1, the one that elected Barack Obama President. The one where Obama is the odds-on favorite to win reelection. The one where you birthers are mocked by the likes of Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly and Karl Rove, this is what happens:
1. Obama sends $20 to the State of Hawaii requesting his birth certificate.
2. Hawaii sends Obama, like they send everyone, a COLB.
3. Obama posts the COLB.
4. The public is satisfied and Obama wins 69 million votes, the most in the history of the nation.
Then we proceed to your world:
5. Birthers demand more than the COLB, but since Obama is already President and nobody who could ever consider voting Democrat cares, they are ignored.
Have you never heard of Occam’s razor, nc1?
Which of these possibilities is more likely correct, applying Occam’s Razor?
A. A vast conspiracy, where Obama forges his COLB, the forgery is not noticed by the Hawaiian governor (Republican) or her administration, which covers for the forgery by confirming that he was born in Hawaii and Obama refuses to release the long form because it will reveal this forgery.
B. Obama releases the COLB, wins the election then doesn’t release the long form because (1) he’d have to go through extraordinary hoops to get it and/or (2) simple political calculations show that no one who would ever vote for him could possibly be swayed by his releasing the “long form.”
Occam’s Razor says pick the one that has fewer moving parts. Since the first requires dozens of participants in a long-ranging conspiracy and the second requires only that the President think, like the rest of us, that you birthers are all mouth-breathing Republican cretins who wouldn’t vote for him if he showed you he could walk on water – isn’t it obvious which one Occam’s Razor says you should pick?
I mean, you know, don’t you, that Obama thinks you birthers are all mouth-breathing Republican cretins, right? In fact, isn’t it a premise of anti-Obama sentiment that he thinks all Republicans are mouth-breathing cretins?
> Have you never heard of Occam’s razor, nc1?
Actually, the birthers have, they have just grossly misunderstood it.
They’re using the wrong paraphrase of “the simplest explanation is the correct one” (which can lead to results like “God did it”).
And to them, a conspiracy is a “simple” explanation, mistake #2.
> Occam’s Razor says pick the one that has fewer moving parts.
That’s a good explanation of OR, though it would not rule out “God did it”. 😉
My own paraphrase is “Of two equally probable explanations, the simpler one is usually the correct one”.
This contains two important aspects – first, “usually”, because physics often surprises us with its complexity. Second, “equally probable”. This requires you to first filter on probability because otherwise you’d end up comparing a complex but very probable solution with a simple but highly improbable one.
Example: why did boxer A defeat his toughest rival, boxer B? Explanation 1 is “because he trained more and better and his will power was greater and B additionally ate a 5-days-old sandwich on the morning of the fight”. Explanation 2 is “because B lost on purpose”. Of course #2 is much simpler and has “less moving parts”, but it’s also much less probable.
Similarly, the “world+dog is in on it” conspiracy theory does not only fail on the “moving parts” issue, but also on the “equally probable” one.
And that’s where the birther movement started to lose it.
I mean, seriously, if they had stuck only to the “why doesn’t he show the original long form, there must be something embarrassing he’s hiding”, they might have convinced a few people. After all, the explanation (“he’s hiding something embarrassing”) is simple, not totally out-of-this-world and consistent with the behaviour of all involved parties (Hawaiian DoH, Governor Lingle, Democrat party etc.).
Instead, they went on all these wild tangents of Kenyan birth certificates, highly improbable travel scenarios, lies about “travel bans”, lies about alleged statements of world+dog, a “master plan” spanning 50+ years, de Vattel… And so they built their vast conspiracy theory to keep all these things “consistent” – and lost most of the gullible majority on the way.
I would say that is where this should have all ended. Most people would have said way doesn’t a government official in Hawaii come forward and set the record straight. That was done.
Yeah if only he would release his original then you’d no longer have the birth certificate excuse for your racism. You’d just move on to the his father wasn’t born here so he’s ineligible like you’ve already claimed before. You’re one of those crazy birthers who will believe any lie about Obama no matter how untrue.
Explain what either of these guys have to do with births and vital records. If the United Stated Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar made a statement on the veracity of Obama’s birth, I wouldn’t put any stock into it.
Now if the director of the Hawaii department of health, or Hawaii state registrar, who’s jobs are all about births and public records, made similar statements, I’d give them credence.
My money would be on something like: A stillborn (or aborted!) sibling, or even a living sibling, documentation of some kind of minor birth defect.
If there is something embarrassing on the form, it could be just “mildly” embarrassing, not the breathtaking reveal that would spark a revolution, like the birthers hope for. There is all kinds of stuff that a pre-civil-rights, pre-medical-privacy document could disclose. Maybe there is something that it *doesn’t* say, which is embarrassing by its absence.
Who knows, and who cares?
What is the mechanism for this? Medical record privacy doesn’t expire.
Anyway, the only way the birthers will be put in their place is for the Tea Party candidate to come out really clearly and point out that (1) Obama was born in the United States, (2) this makes him a Natural Born Citizen, and (3) also address the whole dual citizenship thing.
When the subject comes up in mainstream circles, the concept of “natural born” rarely gets mentioned, and the “problem” of dual citizenship never comes up.
I cringed when Anderson Cooper was trying to debunk his guest, because he kept saying “citizen” which to me showed he didn’t fully understand some of the issues himself. Then there’s the fact that most of the birthers have long ago moved away from the idea of a foreign birth / fraudulent registration / forged COLB, into territory where the nationality of the father matters, and/or dual citizenship is a disqualifying status.
As the campaign opens up, we are again seeing high profile claims suggesting that Obama was born abroad, etc. In this noise, we don’t see much awareness of the fact that even the birthers mostly acknowledge that Obama was born in Hawaii.
The way you call someone a liar in this case is via a criminal accusation of forgery and/or fraud, which of course will be accompanied by an appropriate amount of and quality of evidence.
Here’s the law in question – HRS 338-18(e):
(e) The department may permit persons working on genealogy projects access to microfilm or other copies of vital records of events that occurred more than seventy-five years prior to the current year.
Whether this conflicts with medical record privacy under HIPAA or UIPA, I don’t know. In Obama’s case, we can wait until 2036 to find out.