Add your Obama conspiracy comments here about things not covered in the current articles. I’ll be on vacation the first week in July. You all keep safe, and watch out for the birthers.
Welcome
Obama Conspiracy Theories since 2008 has been your destination for conspiracy theories and fringe views about Barack Obama. Having an argument with your buddies at the office? You're in the right place. Use the Search box below or check out our featured articles. If you don't agree with what you see, feel free to add your thoughts to the over 250,000 comments others have left. To leave a comment visit the Open Thread.
Also check out The debunker's guide to Obama conspiracy theoriesConspiracies
Recent Comments
View the site's Comment feed.Donate
Recommended books
- 935 Lies: The Future of Truth and the Decline of America's Moral Integrity
- A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America
- Arpaio De Facto Lawman
- Barack Obama: The Story
- Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World
- Bullspotting: Finding Facts in the Age of Misinformation
- Chasing Phantoms: Reality, Imagination, and Homeland Security Since 9/11
- Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America
- Conspiracy Theories: Secrecy and Power in American Culture
- Cults, Conspiracies, and Secret Societies: The Straight Scoop on Freemasons, The Illuminati, Skull and Bones, Black Helicopters, The New World Order, and many, many more
- Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free
- Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a Fraud?
- One Electorate Under God?: A Dialogue on Religion and American Politics (Pew Forum Dialogues on Religion & Public Life)
- Our Friend Barry: Classmates' Recollections of Barack Obama and Punahou School
- Religion and the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement
- The Authoritarians
- The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies—How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths
- The Citizenship Debates: A Reader
- The Development of American Citizenship, 1608-1870
- The New Hate: A History of Fear and Loathing on the Populist Right
- The Paranoid Style in American Politics
- The Scapegoat
- The United States of Paranoia: A Conspiracy Theory
- Them: Adventures with Extremists
Quick Reference
- Birther aggregator
- Congressional Research Service report on presidential eligibility
- Donald, You're FIred! – FactCheck.org
- Hawaii Department of Health Obama FAQ
- Hawaii verification of birth certificate
- Jack Ryan document collection on Scribd
- Made in the U.S.A. – FactCheck.org
- Nordyke twins birth certificate
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Gurhrie Photo
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Press
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – White House
- Obama Certification of Live Birth
- Obama presidential library
- Obama White House archive site
- Politifact Birth Certificate articles
- Recent court rulings on presidential eligibility
- The debunker's guide to Obama conspiracy theories
- The Great Mother of all Natural Born Citizenship Quotation Pages
Archives
- October 2019
- September 2019
- August 2019
- July 2019
- June 2019
- May 2019
- April 2019
- March 2019
- January 2019
- December 2018
- November 2018
- October 2018
- September 2018
- August 2018
- July 2018
- June 2018
- May 2018
- April 2018
- March 2018
- February 2018
- January 2018
- December 2017
- November 2017
- October 2017
- September 2017
- August 2017
- July 2017
- June 2017
- May 2017
- April 2017
- March 2017
- February 2017
- January 2017
- December 2016
- November 2016
- October 2016
- September 2016
- August 2016
- July 2016
- June 2016
- May 2016
- April 2016
- March 2016
- February 2016
- January 2016
- December 2015
- November 2015
- October 2015
- September 2015
- August 2015
- July 2015
- June 2015
- May 2015
- April 2015
- March 2015
- February 2015
- January 2015
- December 2014
- November 2014
- October 2014
- September 2014
- August 2014
- July 2014
- June 2014
- May 2014
- April 2014
- March 2014
- February 2014
- January 2014
- December 2013
- November 2013
- October 2013
- September 2013
- August 2013
- July 2013
- June 2013
- May 2013
- April 2013
- March 2013
- February 2013
- January 2013
- December 2012
- November 2012
- October 2012
- September 2012
- August 2012
- July 2012
- June 2012
- May 2012
- April 2012
- March 2012
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- Mastodon
Quick Reference
- Birther aggregator
- Congressional Research Service report on presidential eligibility
- Donald, You're FIred! – FactCheck.org
- Hawaii Department of Health Obama FAQ
- Hawaii verification of birth certificate
- Jack Ryan document collection on Scribd
- Made in the U.S.A. – FactCheck.org
- Nordyke twins birth certificate
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Gurhrie Photo
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Press
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – White House
- Obama Certification of Live Birth
- Obama presidential library
- Obama White House archive site
- Politifact Birth Certificate articles
- Recent court rulings on presidential eligibility
- The debunker's guide to Obama conspiracy theories
- The Great Mother of all Natural Born Citizenship Quotation Pages
Whenever you go on vacation something crazy happens, Doc.
Enjoy a well-earned vacation!
How do you take a vacation from retirement, Doc? 😉 Have fun.
Don’t worry, Doc. I’ll keep an eye on things for you while you’re away. Where’s the membership termination button?
Original Long form birth certificates are sealed and archived by Order of the Court when an adoption is finalized. A new C.O.L.B. is created with the new parent(s) name listed as the birth parent(s) and a name change for the adopted child may be formalized, as well.
Obama’s history is confusing because the Soetoro adoption was annulled. For example, Lolo Soetoro became Barry’s Obama’s stepfather when he married Barry’s mom. Lolo Soetoro became Barry Soetoro’s paternal father listed on Barry’s new C.O.L.B. (Soetoro C.O.L.B.) when the adoption was finalized. Lolo Soetoro was stripped of his rights as the paternal parent when Obama Sr. returned to Hawaii and complained the Soetoro adoption should be annulled because he was not notified nor did he consent. Lolo Soetoro became Barack Hussein Obama’s II stepfather after the adoption annulment. Barack Hussein Obama Sr. was listed on BHO’s II C.O.L.B. as the paternal parent.
The annulled adoption stripped Lolo Soetoro of his parental rights but not his marriage. BHO’s II medical, immunization, and school records with the name Barry Soetoro are sealed by Court Order. Barry Soetoro becomes persona non grata. BHO II can legally state he has never used a name different than BHO II.
An American Refugee Resettlement Organization maintained legal custody of BHO II until he turned 18. His case manager in Connecticut filed his SS-5 with the SSA in 1976-1977 using his status as a Permanent Legal Resident in the United States as his qualifications. A document examiner with the SSA reviewed and verified the SS-5 and its supporting documents. An alpha-numeric code is generated as a result of this document examination. BHO’s II PRA field is marked with a “Y” (Permanent Resident Alien = Yes).
hey shapeshifter, this is not “the Onion”, we don’t do fantasy here!
a friends wife is from Indonesia,she says in adoptions the child retains the fathers name, if an adoption took place his name woud still be Obama. They are very strict on this (it’ a muslim thing). MSU is a long standing birther tradition (make stuff up)
Quick unrelated question (I’m leaving Shapeshipper to you guys). Is there a way to search for a specific comment or commenter. There was a sort of little conversation going the other day (yesterday?) that I meant to go back to, but I can’t find it. It’s been buried by KBOA comments, and I can’t remember which post it was under 🙁
Not too important I guess, but it’s bugging me.
Google.com > site:obamaconspiracy.org name of commenter or part of a comment
Example: Google search for site:obamaconspiracy.org LM
search yields top result >
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/06/new-argument-that-obama-is-not-a-natural-born-citizen/
10 Responses to New argument that Obama is not a natural born citizen
LM June 11, 2011 at 8:43 pm #
I just wanted to be the first person to comment on this. And my only comment is: I don’t understand what this man is saying. At all.
I like fiction and Sven writes some marginally interesting fiction. Not bad for a shapeshifter.
Unfortunately for Sven, no authority has even the slightest interest in his theories. Not the judicial system, no legislative body and none of the agencies of the Executive branch.
Today at church, a fellow asked me what I did to occupy my time in retirement. I replied that I’m a blogger, and he asked what I blogged about.
I explained that I blogged to prove that Barack Obama was President of the Untied States.
He replied, “Oh, you mean disproving all that stuff about him being born in Kenya and not being a citizen? Good for you!”
Then he mentioned something about Obama being raised in Kenya. I explained that Obama was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia and didn’t visit Kenya until he was an adult. He looked mildly surprised and said “I didn’t know that.”
So you don’t have to be a birther to have heard something wrong.
In other birther news NBC reports {https://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/walts-trial-count-1-guilty-count-2-mistrial/} that Wally was found guilty of resisting arrest, but the jury couldn’t reach a unanimous verdict on the second count.
The jurors conspired together to convict Walt. Isn’t it obvious?
Thanks for the update on crazy Walt.
I was debating a birther in another forum and the birther posited the theory that the CIA had written Obama’s Columbia University Sundial magazine article back in 1983 entitled “Breaking the War Mentality.” You see, the birther said, Obama had been recruited by the CIA because of his contacts in Kenya, Indonesia and Pakistan.
I guess Corsi’s book takes off on the difference in writing style between the Columbia article and Dreams from My Father, (which we all know that Bill Ayers wrote!!!) 🙂
I reminded the Birther that in 1983 when the Columbia University article appeared, Ronald Wilson Reagan was President of the United States which meant that the birther was accusing Obama of working as a CIA asset for the Reagan administration.
LOL!!!
Well done!
I’ve never understood the birth fantasies about Obama and/or his mother working for the CIA as if those stories, if true, would somehow call their loyalty into question. Heck, Bill Buckley once worked for the CIA.
The Obot parody site obots.org has a cute new article:
Birther movement officially ends:
http://www.obots.org/archives/241
And George HW Bush ran the CIA briefly.
The current Secretary of Defense spent many years in various positions in the CIA. During the early Reagan administration, he held various deputy director roles. Would this mean that Obama worked for Gates? Maybe he is still working Gates? Hmm… Conspiracy? 😉
Is Sven back?
Well, as you well know, we don’t have membership on this site.
Anyhow, Sven, been a long time. Now keep the commenting down to a dull roar, or I’ll put you back in moderation.
You raise an interesting question. I guess I haven’t been retired long enough to drop the strict barriers between being on vacation and not. But here the distinction is that I’m traveling away from home.
This is my main irritation concerning birthers … they have no chance of achieving their stated goal, but they still have an affect by spreading disinformation. And they howl at how vocal their opponents can be. Just trying to spread enough disinfectant …. !
Well said!
News regarding lucas smith
http://www.youtube.com/user/InspectorSmith
bsteadman1
bsteadman1 (11 hours ago)
THE BEST POSSIBLE NEWS! ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!
I just called the Linn County Jail in Cedar Rapids, Iowa and was told that the presiding judge this morning released Lucas “On His Own Recognizance”.
I hope that I understood this correctly and that Lucas is now a free man! If indeed true, this is WONDERFUL NEWS! I have not had any direct contact with him yet, so still am just a little bit apprehensive.
(BEFORE THAT)
bsteadman1
bsteadman1 (1 day ago)
Spam Marked as spam
GOOD NEWS!
Lucas’ extradition from the Pima County Jail in Tucson, AZ to the Linn County Jail in Cedar Rapids, IA has just been completed. We will now be working to get him released on bail ASAP so that he can begin his legal defense against the ‘trumped-up’ felony-theft charge he is facing in Iowa.
Lucas has stated privately that he believes the Federal Goverment worked behind the scenes to initiate this charge in order to keep him otherwise occupied and out of the fight to expose the POTUS ineligibility of Barack Obama.
————-
“felony theft” Any idea as to what he done, and if it has anything to do with his Birther activities?
“Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans” John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961
Yesterday, while researching birther claims that President Obama’s birth certificate was a proven forgery because typewritten text allegedly showed evidence of computer generated kerning, I pulled out the old typewriter I had with me when I started school at the University of Washington, in September 1961. Coincidentally, that’s also when President Obama’s mother started school there, little more than a month after he was born in Hawaii. Although I don’t recall ever meeting her, I have wondered if we ever crossed paths. Two notable possibilities occurred in November when Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke to a student assembly at Meany Hall on the 9th and President John F. Kennedy delivered the keynote address at the UW Centennial Convocation in Edmundson Pavilion on the 16th.
Was baby Barack there to hear them speak? Was the torch passed? Less than 7 years later, both Kennedy and King were dead by assassins’ bullets.
King’s Seattle visit: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/special/mlk/perspectives/reflections/mckinney.html
Kennedy’s speech: http://www.learner.org/workshops/primarysources/coldwar/docs/jfk.html
Well Lucas has been known to post here in the past, so we might get to hear what happened from him directly.
Here’s some interesting news: “Lucas Smith” isn’t his real name. According to the State of Iowa, his real name is Nathan Scott Weston. “Lucas Smith” is one of a half-dozen aliases he has used:
Anthony Jones Bolden
Andrew Ellis Hall
Frank Allen Long
Lucas Daniel Smith
Lucas David Smith
Luke Daniel Smith
Go to the VINElink site:
https://www.vinelink.com/vinelink/initMap.do
Click on Iowa on the map, then click on “Offenders.” Type in “Lucas Smith” and click “Search” – Voila! He was released on his own recognizance yesterday, but the authorities show his real name as Nathan Scott Weston.
I trust that posting this information does not violate Doc’s outing policy, since “Lucas” has posted here under that name and the rest is public record. And it provides further evidence that nothing he says can be taken at face value.
Wow! Thanks for the info.
I guess we’ll have to refer to him as AKA Lucas Smith from now on. 😉
Which name does he use to sign checks?
I guess it depends upon whether it’s a good check or a rubber check.
Something about this seems very wrong. We’ve seen his criminal history. We’ve seen his passport. We’ve seen him identified as a witness in a court case, and in old newspaper articles. And in every instance, his name is “Lucas Daniel Smith.”
This strikes me as an error on somebody’s part. Possibly in data entry.
But have we seen his LFBC?
The one that says Lucas was actually born in 1890 in CT or one of the others?
How many social-security numbers?
It’s OK, but I wouldn’t want to see something line a residence address, name of employer or a phone number.
Could be. I see that the Iowa Department of Corrections inmate history has him listed as “Lucas Daniel Smith,” same date of birth.
Of course, it’s possible that Iowa just recently discovered his real name and previously incarcerated him under an alias. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
My mother retired about 3 years ago and I’ve posed the same question to her. She makes the same distinction. Vacation is really just a break from the normal routine and a change of scenery. Working or not, you’ll have a routine and regular scenery.
I predict that while Doc is away, the Birthers will win their first law suit. Or perhaps the White House will publicly endorse this site. Or Orly Taitz will snap out of it and say “I was wrong all along”. Doc being on vacation dictates that a major story must break. It’s the law of nature.
Here’s the passport video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEPYmpBwrCc
I just find it inexplicable that he would forge the info page of a passport, but NOT forge a visa stamp showing travel to or from Africa.
I find it ironic that birth certificates in Iowa are stored in the Lucas Building.
It’s more likely that his real name is Lucas Daniel Smith, but Nathan Scott Weston is the name used during the commission of the offense for which he is currently charged. So the case was filed seeking Weston, but somewhere along the line the connection was made between Weston and Smith, hence the listing of aliases.
It was my experience when practicing criminal law that if a defendant was charged initially under the wrong name, either because the defendant was using an alias or because of an error made in the original charging documents, the case ended up being titled, People vs. Fake Name, AKA Real Name There was no sort of procedure in my state that I could follow to get things turned around, no matter how innocent the client was in the initial error, or how off base a mis-spelling was.
How do we know he’s not really Jimmy Hoffa or even Amelia Earhart?
What’s he hiding?
How do we know he isn’t really Kobayashi?
Meanwhile tea party / birther / racist / right-wing kook / would-be assassin Jared Lee Loughner is having hissy fits:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/jared-lee-loughner-behavior-spit-on-attorney_n_885754.html
Lupin, I realize that you live oversees, so maybe you don’t have the whole story. Would-be assassin and kook are the only correct statements in your description. The evidence so far shows that this domestic terrorist was both seriously mentally-ill psychotic level crazy and anti-government. That is about it. There is no evidence of any connection to birthers, racists or the right-wing. Coverage on the right has also incorrectly try to pin him to the left. Although this was a political crime, the evidence in his background that we’ve seen seems to indicate only an anti-government paranoia that was probably a manifestation of his mental illness and no real political activisim.
G
Whilst there is no real and tangible link with Loughner and Birfoondom, he does fall well within the curve of conspiracy theorist that includes Birfoons.
If you want to see the monkeys in the zoo flinging esoteric insane poo, then Dr K(H)ates is a perfect example.
The specific Birfoon conspiracy mind set section is simply one virulent item in the pantheon of insanity on exhibition, they are, in general equal opportunity haters and nuts.
The general point is that these fevered minds encompass everything from Reptilians, 9/11 truther, HAARP, flu vaccine population culling, chemtrails, NWO, The Vatican etc.
The only common thread seems to be a profound distrust or outright hatred of government in general, an inability to reason and articulate logically, an irradicable belief in mysterious and evil forces outside of their control and the “knowledge” that everyone else is “in on it”.
Loughner and his mindset appears to falls squarely within this set although at least in his case there may be the excuse of organic issue at the root of it.
The Dr Kates, Orly’s, ORYR’s, Marios’, Kerchners, Farahs’s, Corsi’s etc of this world are just evil hate filled bastards
I recognize most of these, but what is HAARP?
I suspect that some of them and their Birfoon followers also suffer from mental illness. Orly seems completely certifiable IMHO. I think Dr. h(K)ate’s mind has snapped too.
HAARP is a real program. It is just that the conspiracy nuts have turned it into something out of a bad sci-fi movie. Not to different from the Birchers claiming that fluoridated water is a secret commie mind-control plot. Fluoridated water is obviously real and its implementation to help give people clean water and clean teeth is a fairly straitforward and laudable thing. The bunk conspiracy nonsense around it is just the opposite.
see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haarp
In the mind of the conspiracy theorist HAARP is a device to control weather, generate earthquakes, bit of mind control and probably rots your teeth.
I’m not at all into the intricacies of other conspiracy theories, but the traditional conspiracy theory, as I understand it, tries to impose a conspiratorial framework over random events. This is distinct from the birthers who impose a conspiratorial framework over things they make up.
You’re right. I knowingly stretched the truth when I included “birtherism” on his list of sins, but I genuinely thought, based on admittedly spotty reading of news articles, that he was counted amongst the militia-type kooks. And I construe these as generally extreme right-wing and racist. I admit that “extreme right-wing” is a bit of a grab-bag, however.
Well, here in the US there are actual groups of armed anti-government types that call themeselves “militias”. Yes, they are kooks. We have seen no evidence that Loughner was connected to any actual militia organization. He seems to truly be just a lone-nut.
Wasn’t that the plot of the movie “The Core”?
Well, yes, and no, they are also reading unwarranted significance into collections of circumstance. They do seem happy to hoover up whatever seems to confirm their desired reality. How many legs does it take to make a table stand, anyway? When none of the legs have any substance, it takes a heck of a lot.
They’re aren’t seriously trying to make a case, but keep the rubes convinced and muddy the waters just enough to sow confusion at a subconscious level. The “priests” of this silliness can’t actually believe what they’re pushing.
Speaking of conspiracies and vacation safety…
A friend from New Mexico sent me a link to a YouTube video showing a new set of fires near Los Alamos.
People were commenting conspiracy theory nonsense on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mju9oYwI36c
His main lunar focus seems to circular logic problems discussing currency, inventing your own new currency, and how currency of any kind is a mind control device or some such complaint that I can’t quite work out. He may well have had some sort of problem with NASA and the Space Shutte as well (which may tie into the target of his shooting spree).
His writings are repetitive couplets in the pattern : If X then Y. assert X, therefore Y. Where X is some silly thing usually totally unrelated to Y except that they both appear in the same phrase couplet. In his mind, writing down these nonsense couplets seem to make them real and valid.
A look into the mind of erad3
That pesky 14th Amendment is rearing its head again. HuffPo reports ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/28/14th-amendment-debt-ceiling-unconstitutional-democrats_n_886442.html ) that Senate Dems are saying the debt ceiling is unconstitutional because of it. Interesting!
Here’s something interesting that caught my eye.
In my email’s spamtrap, I found one of those common spams about a relative that left a large sum of money for me.
This is only a section of the entire email, but take a look at the names used:
Dear xxxxxx
My name is Jerome Corsi Odinga Jnr and my sister Jane Corsi Odinga,we are Kenyan
National,who is currently at the Bujumbura Refugee Camp Accra Ghana.Please i
will like you to assist me and my sister to retrieve and receive our
consignment over there in American that contains $25million United States
dollars and some quantity of gold and Diamond, which I cannot specify.
The consignment is presently in American.The consignments get to the state
through the help of a diplomatic courier agent Mr.Chambas Mohamed IBN The
fact is that Mr.Chambas Mohamed IBN is suppose to have delivered the
consignment to a man called MR.WAYNE RICHARDSON in American.
Gee, why don’t I get any of these great offers? I could use $25M.
One funny story I wanted to share:
Birthers always claim that us Obots are scared of Obama ever being exposed as the criminal/forger/usurper they claim he is.
I always say “no, I’m not scared” (especially given that I don’t have any stake in the matter, not being an American nor living there).
However, the other day I saw (again) the footage of Tiger Woods apologizing for his adultery – and for a second, I thought I saw Obama, apologizing for the things the birthers accuse him of. And I actually had goosebumps for a moment.
Doesn’t mean anything, but I found it interesting. 😉
What do you think of this video gents? How many lies and inaccuracies can you spot?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAu23fvG1vA&feature=feedu
Tons of course. Really, nothing we haven’t seen suggested by the cesspool floaters before. In his attempt to make the mundane appear sinister, the author of the video intentionally ignores all the GOP suggestions about changing NBC in the recent past. How quickly they try to forget the impetus and excitement the GOP once had for Arnold S. to potentially run for POTUS one day. As has been previously mentiond on this blog when addressing this topic before, Amendment suggestions are nothing new and various Congress-critters suggest bills that go nowhere all the time.
Now don’t get me wrong. On a personal level, I’m very much for being “tough on crime”, but I disagree that our current system does that in any intelligent, beneficial or pragmatic way.
I think we lock people up for a bunch of stupid things (pot, etc) that just waste taxpayer money and jail space and cause real criminals to be unfairly released. I do agree that there are very dangerous hard drugs out there, but I feel our current “war on crime” has been an utter failure and waste of money. I think most zero policies are stupid, because they take common sense out of the process and now you get kids expelled for aspirin, birth control, nail files, plastic lunch cutlery and other stupid stuff.
I totally believe in responsibility and punishment, but I think helping to teach people HOW to do and be better is the most crucial part… and that rehabilitiation includes creating a system that can live up to our principals of “you do your time and you are free to re-enter society”.
In order to do that, you can’t just treat people like animals… many of the root causes that led them to make mistakes were because they’ve been neglected by society in the first place. Teach people to be better, develop skills and self-respect and see the value in “doing unto others as they would wish others would do unto them” and you allow for that opportunity for them to have hope and grow into something better. I’m all for work programs, discipline, drug treatment, education and such becoming a more important focus of non-permanent incarceration situations. We can’t just neglect, punish abuse and then stigmatize them and then marginalize them when they get out and find that they have very little skills and employment opportunities and have no other option but to return to crime in order to survive.
Prisons seem to have become nothing but a money draining cesspool of turning small criminals into worse criminals in order to survive. It is a system rife with such corruption and abuse that I wonder that anyone can get out of it with any sense of moral values in tact.
Now don’t get me wrong. I’m no softy. Certain crimes (most murder, violent rape, pedophilia) deserve very long sentences and some folks are just plain dangerous and not really rehabilitatable. Those should be locked up for life or put to the death penalty, where the evidence is solid enough to merit it. (Yes, I fully support the death penalty…but think it only should be used in very clear circumstances).
I also see the value of “strong crime” policies, which have helped to clean up neighborhoods. The “gateway” issue is more about not tolerating bad behavior than really needing to go after stupid stuff. Somewhere, a common sense and FLEXIBLE balanced approach needs to be struck so we can get the benefit of safer areas without needing to lock people up and ruin their futures over stupid minor stuff.
I don’t pretend to have the answers on how to fix this stuff. All I offer is that the effort and serious discussions need to be made to rethink how we do things and look at both the short and long term consequences of our policies and other options. In order to fix that, legitimate honest insight will be needed from both people with noble ideas as well as people who have experienced the system (both what works and what doesn’t) from both sides of the cell bars. But that requires involving people who are serious about wanting to make it better and not just find more ways to introduce corruption and game the system to their personal benefit.
I agree with everything you’ve said with the exception of the death penalty – which I believe is a microcosm of what you decry in the whole system. While there may be a place, in theory, for the death penalty (I personally don’t believe that there is), in practice it has been so badly applied (unfairly, incorrectly, and in a racist manner) that it is clear that our government (federal and state) cannot be trusted with this power. Just recently Governor Perry of Texas refused to stay the execution of a Mexican national and apparently thereby violated the Geneva Accords – do you want governors to have that kind of power?
Ruining someone’s life by entrapping them in a hellhole of a prison versus ending it there seems like a lateral move. That’s why I can’t muster any opposition to the death penalty.
Let me point you to one example where I think the death penalty was appropriate: the murder of Rudolph Tyner by Donald Henry Gaskins, our home bred South Carolina serial killer. Gaskins was convicted of of 8 murders and sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted. Six years later Gaskins murdered Tyner with a bomb detonated by radio while Gaskins was in a high security cell block and Tyner was on death row in the state prison. Gaskins was convicted and sentenced to death and was executed in 1991 for the murder of Tyner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Henry_Gaskins
Doc,
I don’t deny that there are cases where it might be (again, philosophical qualms) appropriate, just that that it is completely inappropriate for any human authority to make that decision. I believe that the empirical evidence shows gross negligence in the application of the death penalty and that executing someone who might later be found innocent is repugnant to the spirit of “innocent until proven guilty” (I feel that nothing short of the mathematical standard of proof [i.e. unquestionably true with no possible doubt] is sufficient to carry out a death sentence and I don’t think that it is possible to meet that standard in a court of law). I believe that a person convicted of 8 murders should be imprisoned for life without possibility of parole – if (for the safety of other inmates) that means locked in his own cell for the rest of his life, I’m fine with that (honestly, it seems worse than death to me, which is appropriate). Unless you can explain why mistakes have been made in the past and why they will not be made in the future, I don’t see how the death penalty (as a whole) can ever be considered just.
Thrifty,
The difference arises ten years down the road when the person is proven innocent.
This whole discussion on the criminal justice system misses the whole purpose. Nobody can rehabilitate anyone, only punish.
We throw a lot of people in prison because the system needs bodies to keep funding. No bodies, no money for the system We need to realize that prisons are a valuble resource in thight budget times we really need to use it to protect society. That should be used for those who really need it, murderers, rapists and thieves. The people who society needs to be protected from.
I had my right to vote stripped during the ’80’s from drug problems. In Texas you may register to vote after two years upon completion of sentence. Nobody was willing to tell me that i could have my right to vote restored, so i called the Texas attorney general office I vote.
And as an observation that there is not much difference between a sentence of years and the death penalty, only degrees of difference. In one the state takes five years, in a death penalty case they take it all.
I feel getting further into the issue of the death penalty is O/T for this blog. As you know, I’m not a liberal, so this is just one of those areas where I respectfully differ from the liberal position on a philosophical level. I too wish to remove abuses from the system and try to instill a more impartial judicial system (as Aarrgghh pointed out). I see value for tort reform in many cases, particularly in doctor’s liability. But I’m very strong for reasonable oversight nd protecting the rights of individuals over abuses by greedy corporations. I see reasons when war is necessary, both as defense and in situations to prevent certain large scale human rights abuses and genocidal situations. Yet I also understand where we can’t just be everyone’s police force nor force our values and ways on other sovereign nations, even if their leaders are bad for their own people. I am against the whole small-government vs large government argument. I want an EFFECTIVE and EFFICIENT government. But I’m not a conservative either and have no desire for their red-meat attitudes towards these issues. I want fairness and ability for all people to rise up and improve themselves and wish to improve most of the system through the inside, by reducing loopholes, redundancies and areas rife with abuse instead of trashing the system. I consider myself more of a centrist pragmatic and I respect that others worldviews will differ as long as they respect mine.
I agree that this is getting off-topic, so I’ll just say that if there is going to be a death penalty, then we need to admit it was abused in the past and work to prevent those abuses (or others) from occurring in the future. And as a liberal pragmatist, I can certainly respect your position (and I think we share common ground in eliminating abuses and errors in the application of capital punishment).
Who on earth isn’t admitting that it has been abused in the past??? Heck, it is abused currently! Look at what Perry in TX did today, in defiance of the WH. This goes beyond just the usual worry of killing someone who might be innocent – this is a case where the accused was foreign and was DENIED his right to councel from him own country, in direct violation of our international treaty agreements!!!! Perry ignored and fried the guy today… which just means that now American citizens have more to worry about if travelling abroad and get accused of something. In the past, the US always provided defense in these cases for our citizens and really put the squeeze on countries to follow the treaty and allow us to at least defend our own citizens, even when crimes were committed in their country. Now that Perry not only violated it, but excecuted a foreign national in a controversial case, other countries can point to that as an excuse to deny the US to monitor & protect our own citizens if they get in trouble abroad!!! Oy vey!
Yes, we share common ground on eliminating errors & abuses. I still maintain support for having a death penalty in the worst cases and where there is CLEAR and convincing evidence of guilt. (I’m very reluctant to see it used in circumstancial evidence cases). But I’m completely against having that option taken all the way off the table as a punishment….and also I’m not that concerned about how “humane” the application of it is, when used. If someone truly deserves the death penalty, I have no problem with the chair or firing squad or if they feel some amount of pain from a lethal injection. I’m not talking about sick abuses (like the example in The Green Mile) or torturing people (I’m against that and any forms of sadism), but I don’t care if they feel normal pain during the process of a quick death. I know that liberals disagree with me on that and often view all forms of capital punishment as barbaric, which is their right, but that is my position and I’m fully comfortable with it.
I was using “we” in general (the national consensus, if you will) – I was actually thinking of Perry when I wrote it (he certainly isn’t admitting that he is abusing his power – and he will be a top tier contender for the Republican nomination if and when he declares his candidacy). Since he still feels able to commit such acts (and I agree with you 100% on the shortsightedness of those acts – it would be nice to see Perry in a Mexican jail… or in front of the Hague), I think the country as a whole has some growing up to do before we can hope to implement the death penalty justly. I assume that any law allowing capital punishment will be implemented by people like Governor Perry (as opposed to say, rational people) until such a time as there is a consensus that actions like his clearly constitute abuse.
I have no issues with the manner of execution – once you’ve decided to put someone to death, the manner of it seems to be a minor point to me (I agree that it shouldn’t be sadistic, of course). As for the evidentiary standards, I would like to see something higher than “reasonable doubt” as the standard for a death sentence (NOT a conviction, just before imposing a death sentence) and I would be tempted to explicitly specify that circumstantial evidence along could not satisfy this standard.
The other side of the issue is why do we do it? I do not believe that the death penalty deters criminals and it obviously has nothing to do with rehabilitation, so the purpose is to punish the offender and to protect society from them. But, as has been already pointed out, life in prison is also a harsh punishment and the only people being protected by the execution are other inmates (presumably themselves violent felons). To me it seems like we are taking an ethically dubious action and getting very little (if anything) out of it.
Anyway, I think I’ve put forth my position sufficiently. I would accept your position (or something close to it) as an acceptable compromise (between Perry playing god and the total elimination of the death penalty), but I don’t see a way to get there by simply reforming the current system. That being the case, I think that we need a moratorium until we can figure out safeguards to prevent what we both agree are ongoing abuses.
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/SCOTUS/story?id=4520197&page=1
Now someone explain to me.
The bad person is on the gurney, the chemicals of execution are loaded, the confession to the priest has been made…..why the alcohol swab on the arm before the needle gets inserted….Afraid the executed may get a boo-boo…?
Here’s one answer from about 20 years ago:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/656/when-someone-is-executed-by-lethal-injection-do-they-swab-off-the-arm-first
That article ends with: “Nazi death camp guards observed no such niceties. We’re better, because we do.”
Good to know that it nothing else, we still beat out the Nazis!
Dear darling friends!
I have a new blog report published today!
“Written Arraignment And Plea Of Not Guilty.”
http://www.WasObamaBornInKenya.com/blog
Please feel free to comment. I support and advocate freedom of speech.
Thanks!
Doc,
Thought you’d want to hear this (from a interview with Doug Vogt – linked from drk(H)ate’s):
Starting at 37:40:
“Some of them, like Dr. Conspiracy, if he’s gotten paid or instructed by the White House to do this, he becomes an accessory after the fact – I don’t know if he knows that…”
http://drkatesview.wordpress.com/2011/07/05/acts-of-war/#comment-38226
One of the comments on that site says that fake preacher Manning is going to have another “trial” up in Harlem. Glad to see they’re keeping the popcorn providers in business.
What does your post have to do with Leo Donofrio?
In that pic of CELIII I can see why Orly was attracted to him.
14 Propaganda Techniques Fox “News” Uses to Brainwash Americans
http://www.truth-out.org/14-propaganda-techniques-fox-news-uses-brainwash-americans/1309612678
You’ll recognize many of these as common birther squawking techniques as well.
Hey Lucas. You should check out Alex Chiu’s page at alexchiu.com . You and he have the same business strategy
Thanks for that story link, Charo!
GWB had the right perspective on this particular case. As President, his mandate is the welfare of ALL American citizens, regardless of where they are in the world and understood how important it is that we retain the clout to advocate for our people when they get in trouble in foreign nations. That is why that international treaty is so valuable to US and what we hold dear.
Now I also understand why the SC ruled the way they did on this – based on purely a narrow perspective of Presidential vs state powers in these types of situations. So on a legal basis, they had a point on why a President can’t force a state in this type of situation, but as the dissent was correct in pointing out, they really were missing the bigger picture of the potential ramifications here and WHY broader considerations should have been taken.
If common sense and the good of the country prevailed, the TX Gov could have simply taken the advice of GWB and then acted according to it on his own behalf instead of fighting it and making it into a territorial jurisdiction pissing match in the courts. So yes, TX won the jurisdictional battle…but at potential cost to the future welfare of American citizens abroad… really sad in the big picture and not worth merely letting Mexico have the notice and council it was entitled to. None of those things would have meant that the convict went free or necessarily received a lesser sentence, just that his own national rights and notifications were respected during the legal procedure. Simply put, TX decided to just be inconsiderate because they could get away with it.
Hi Dr. C:
I see that the number of comments posted to your site is over 98,000. Have you thought about having some sort of recognition or award for the person who posts the 100,000th comment? Maybe a free t-shirt? Coffee mug? What do you think?
Interesting that I read your comment just as I was about to update the count to indicate passing 99,000. Usually giveaways are marketing ploys to encourage paying customers. Since I pay for the blog, maybe number 100,000 should give me a t-shirt. What to you think?
I’ve started using Microsoft Windows Live Writer to compose articles for the blog. It’s a free download for Windows 7 and Vista. It supports several blogging platforms including WordPress, SharePoint, Windows Live Spaces, Blogger, TypePad and others.
I really enjoy using it. First, it’s WYSIWYG, showing almost exactly what the finished blog post will look like in real time (no Preview step required). It’s faster than the WordPress web interface to use and it includes the ability to upload images along with the article rather than in a separate step; I can even paste a photo without saving it on the hard drive. It also supports tables, something the visual editor in WordPress doesn’t do (you have to drop into HTML). The biggest advantage is that I can write articles offline, something really appreciated on my recent vacation where I didn’t have Internet or cell coverage most of the time.
Other features include support for super and subscripts, word count, spell checking, horizontal lines. Publishing an article is just a single click.
About all you will see different here on the blog is photo formatting, a drop shadow instead of a border.
Now if it just managed comments too!
I disagree, even with such an egregious offender.
Gaskins was obviously a homicidal maniac, and should have been in a padded cell, probably on extreme medication, possibly heavy doses of electro-shock ‘therapy’, and maybe with a Hanibal Lecter mask.
But not death row, where apparently inmates have ready access to military explosives.
How in bloody heck did he get access to C-4 explosives on death row maximum security and how was he allowed to fashion it into a bomb? I think that is the real question in this case, not whether or not he was a monster who did not deserve to exist on the planet.
How can you be off-topic in an open topic thread?
You pay for this blog? Why I thought the DNC, or George Soros, or the Rimers of Eldritch payed for it.
Let’s see, when the count hits 100,000 I bet we could all chip for a “World Greatest Conspirator” mug.