I have debunked so much demonstrably false “birther evidence” that I sometimes lose perspective about levels of “bunk” and levels of “demonstrable.” Based on the reactions of others, I may have done something last year that applies to something high on the “bunk” scale today as well as high on the “demonstrable” scale amounting to what Joe Biden might call a BFD, and the smoking gun showing the Cold Case Posse fabricated evidence and lied.
Mike Zullo and Sheriff Joe Arpaio, presented their final (one hopes) investigative report yesterday (July 17). Their latest “evidence” that Obama’s long-form birth certificate is a fake is stated succinctly:
The race of Barack Obama’s father is shown as “African” on the birth certificate, but next to that is a penciled number “9” that indicates “not stated.” The code is wrong, proving that the form is a fake.
Of course, when I heard the stuff about the “9” I knew Zullo was way off track. I wrote an article last March about the race code on the form in my article, Decoding the long form (Part 2). You see, when the long form came out in April of 2011, I searched for a definitive answer to what the penciled notations meant. In my days in public health, I had occasion to do quite a lot of searching for specification documents at the CDC and I know my way around its sites and subdirectories pretty well. What I found is that the most recent coding specifications published were for 1968 (see index). The document is the Natality Tape File for Calendar Year 1968. Being intimately familiar with vital statistics in my former job, I knew that specifications change every few years, and that I could not rely on 1968 specifications to read 1961 data.
Being a careful investigator, and not one to jump to conclusions too often, I filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request on May 2, 2011, with the Department of Health and Human services for the 1961 specifications document. I received my response to request 11-00673 in August of 2011 and subsequently scanned it and made Tape File Information 1960-1961 natality Tape Files for the United States available on this web site, and today I uploaded it to Scribd. The document is also embedded at the end of this article.
What we know from viewing the Cold Case Posse video is that Zullo used the 1968 tape layout manual and based his entire argument on how “not stated” was coded in 1961 with a “9”. The problem is that in 1961, code “9” represented “other nonwhite.” One might have excused this as a mistake, a bit of sloppy research from someone not qualified in the field, but the video repeatedly stated that the image they showed was from the 1961 manual, when it was not. Here is a screen shot from the Cold Case Posse video that the narrator describes as the “1961 vital statistics instructions manual.”
Compare that to the real 1968 manual (page 4):
It’s pretty obvious from the smudges on the page that both of these are copied from the same original 1968 document. The Cold Case Posse lied. (An anonymous poster on YouTube, William Rawle, first noted that the video showed the 1968 manual.)
Here are the real 1961 codes from the document embedded at the end of the article:
I’ve written a good deal about the “African” response on the Obama birth certificate. The short version is that parent’s race is what the parent describes themself to be. In 1962, the Kenyan Census used the category “African” to describe black Africans (other examples were European and Arab), so it is very likely that Obama Sr. would have used this term for himself. It would have been wrong for the coder to have changed what Obama Sr. said, and so they correctly chose the code “9 – other nonwhite.” We know very specifically that all states used this code (except New York) based on the footnote:
Now I’m going to pat myself on the back for this, since I did the extra work to file the FOIA in 2011, simply for the purpose of understanding the long form birth certificate and having the background information I needed to serve the readers of this site. At that time I had no idea that my research would prove useful in exposing an outright fraud at the Daily Pen Blog last March, and that it would prove fraud at the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office Cold Case Posse too. Sometimes diligence is rewarded.
Update:
I proved using publicly available government documents that the Cold Case Posse showed a 1968 code table, and called it 1961. However, my FOIA result is not available on any government web site that I know of. Some might say that the 1968 codes are also right for 1961 and my table and document is an elaborate (!) fake. However, I can rule that out. The 1961 Vital Statistics of the US – Volume 1: Natality (VSUS) in table 2-4 has an instructive footnote:
The Cold Case Posse code table doesn’t have codes for Aleut and Eskimo; they are lumped in with Indian. It would be impossible to perform this tabulation using the table the Posse claims was in use. My authentic 1961 table has separate codes for these.
Update 2:
Further research has shown conclusively that the 1961 Federal codes were not used on Hawaiian certificates, nor were the 1968 codes. Hawaii used their own codes. The central thesis of this article remains correct: the Cold Case Posse lied about having the manual, and instead presented a fake one.
Update 3:
More recently Mike Zullo has said that he didn’t actually use the 1961 manual, but rather had to rely on the 1960 manual since the 1961 manual hadn’t been published at the time Obama was born. The codes he actually used were from 1968, not 1960. Also the 1960 and 1960 codes were the same.
Update 4:
I was finally able to get a copy of the 1961 statistical supplement from the Hawaii Department’s Annual Report. It reveals that there was no category for “black” or “negro.” They are lumped under “Other Race, ” which is code “9.”
See my article: “Race Tabulations in Hawaii – 1961.”
View the 1960-61 specifications
Doc
Great work. I hope this gets picked up by the local media in Phoenix and the wire services who seem to have taken an interest in this. As Ricky Ricardo would say “Jerry Corsi and Mike Zullo have some ‘splainin’ to do!”.
Has anyone else pointed out there is a smiley face on the CCP document? It must be a forgery!
So, what can be done regarding Zullo’s lies? Lying at a press conference (book promotion) is probably not a crime. If he were a real officer, I suppose you could file a civilian complaint with Internal Affairs, but he isn’t. Maybe you could forward your report to the DA or AG and see if they are willing to do anything.. You could also send it to the US attorney, since he is already involved in an investigation of Arpaio.
It would be sweet to see a bogus investigation of Obama ending with a real smack-down of Arpaio.
I think it’s time for someone to put together a report refuting all the Posse’s claims to send to the posse, Arpaio, and Phoenix news outlets (CBS 5 included!), if for no other reason than to ridicule Arpaio.
But then I remember no one really cares about this anymore… thankfully.
Somewhere, in some volcano lair, there is a well tanned man with a porn-stach shaking his fist going “Curse you, Doctor Conspiracy! Curse you and your usage of factual information! I’ll win next time, Gadget! Next time!”
But… but… but… if this is correct Zullo and Arpaio are incompetent lying racists…
All this just supports what you said before: these b******ds will believe any speculation if it fits their fantasies and fill the gaps with wild speculation but they’ll reject the clear and solid evidence that refutes their nonsense with implausible fabrications. I imagine they’ll claim next that the 1961 manual supplied to you is a forgery.
Or perhaps that it is genuine but the 1968 one was forged just to make them look stupid… as if they would need help with that!!
The wheels really have come off the Maricopa clown car.
Well done Doc C, excellent work, clearly explained.
Birthers don’t care.
They’re problem is that a black man is President. it destroys their whole sense of how things should be. No amount of refutation will keep them from clinging to the teddy bear Zullo and Sherrif Joe have given them.
After all, if they cared about people lying, then they wouldn’t still be birthers at this point, would they?
On second thought, if you use the lies to solicit funds to support your activities, it might be.
Nice work Doc.
So Arpaio’s press conference was more “let’s look at various things that exist on the long form and declare them as proof of a forgery”?
Well done, Doc! Not only does your research show that the Arpaio Birf Patrol are using the 1968 manual while claiming it is the 1961 edition, it also only took a month to receive the right one, via your FOIA request. How long has the Posse been “investigating” this? They have sent FOIA requests to the Selective Service, but I guess doing another for the proper coding manual would have been an outlandish waste of resources, you know, compared with sending people to Hawaii. Geesh!
I believe you meant “outright” in the phrase near the end, and it got shortened to “ought”:
“I had no idea that my research would prove useful in exposing an ought fraud at the Daily Pen Blog last March”
great job, doc – kudos
john woodman is in the process of responding
The Arpaio Posse’s New Claims from the July 17, 2012 Press Conference
Today Arpaio’s posse presented several new claims.
At this time, I am going to go ahead and preliminarily post this. This is an article in process. I will return later to comment on the claims that Arpaio’s posse made today.
http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/07/statement-regarding-sheriff-joe-arpaios-july-17-2012-press-conference/
I would like to note that Page 6 of the 1961 tape specifications explicitly states, in a footnote regarding New York City, how “races other than white, Negro, Indian, Chinese, and Japanese” were to be coded.
They were to be coded as “other nonwhite,” which according to the tape codes is “9.”
In other words, the coding on Obama’s father’s race, far from being “strong evidence of forgery,” is precisely correct.
How do the codes 2 and 9 become African?
I rarely respond to Denialists, which is what they really are, unless what they write is egregious.
The other note is this: Denialists are fascists, in the true sense of the word. Farah is a Phalangist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
Make no mistake: these people are dangerous. Orly Taitz is transparently doing her best to inspire a lone wolf. Romney is refusing to denounce them.
Israel is now having to deal with letting Settlers run amuck.
You have been warned.
I would email the documents to the local news outlets like ABC15, etc so they have it
Just FYI – New Special Report at Fogbow – The Shock of Zullo 🙂
http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/arpaio-2-in-2d-the-shock-of-zullo/
Thanks for reminding me about that footnote. It’s important and I have added it to the article.
Someone (not I) has contacted them with a link to this article.
A couple of things about that. We now know that Zullo didn’t get his information from The Daily Pen (who used the 1969 manual). Also, when linking to the 1961 document, I would prefer folks used the Scribd link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/100438616/Vital-Statistics-Tape-File-Information-1960-1961-Natality-Tape-Files-for-the-United-States
You are so full of it! Even a moron can look at the White House birth certificate and see that it’s a forgery! How dare you speak against the Cold Case Posse! You should just kneel down before Obama and worship him!
Since I am not a moron, I see it as very real.
Tell me where YOU think the President was born. What proof do you have? What story do you have as to why his mother didn’t give birth where she, her husband (the baby’s father) and her parents were. Go on, I am eargerly waiting.
Sorry, only my mistress kneels, when my wife is out of town. [bada-bing]
Hi kevin:
You’re right. It takes a moron to look at the White House birth certificate and see that it’s a forgery. By the way, excellent use of the exclamation point. I can almost see the gluey spittle flying from your dessicated lips.
I’m assuming this is a joke. But if it’s not, exactly what attributes is it that a moron would perceive in visually looking at the White House birth certificate that would indicate it is clearly a forgery? Not the layers crap, mind you, but the visual giveaway to a moron when he/she looks at it.
Enlighten me, please.
FIFY.
Here’s a complete explanation of number 9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG0wksBzKSc
i can’t claim to be a moron, but THIS one looks phony to me. It even says VOID.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/us-usa-campaign-romney-birth-certificate-idUSBRE84S1GF20120529
I have tried, all day, to post this url. There is something wrong with Doc’s site. My posts are dismissed and I cannot insert the url after the fact, and the post is marked as spam.
Does anyone here know what is going on with this??
http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/arpaio-2-in-2d-the-shock-of-zullo/
Obviously, you fools haven’t looked at the birth certificate closely. It is full of errors, if you would open your eyes. Obama’s maternal grandmother has consistently said that she saw him born in Kenya. Not only that, but Obama was quite proud of claiming to be born in Kenya until he ran for president. His literary agent for his books wrote that Obama was born in Kenya. This was written for 16 years. Don’t be fooled by this usurper in chief!
TESTING
I am unable to post anything with a url. Posts are being deleted as they are submitted. There is something wrong here, anyone know what’s going on?
Sure dude. Try reading sometime.
I am really interested in your opinion on Romney’s. His parents owned a house in Canada and went there often. Canada is MUCH closer to Detroit than Kenya is to Hawaii.
Come on, even you can see the VOID, can’t you? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/us-usa-campaign-romney-birth-certificate-idUSBRE84S1GF20120529
Yes we have. Many times and in considerable detail, over these past 4 years. The only fool here are folks like YOU.
Nothing truly atypical at all, under the relevant circumstances. All claims of “errors” have fallen apart upon real further examination. Further, the state of HI repeatedly and adamantly stands behind it 100%. You can’t counter that, no matter how hard your bitter hate-filled heart tries… so sucks to be you…
That is a blatent lie. She NEVER said that. The full tape and all follow-up clearly show that she said Obama (her grandson) was born in HI in the USA. Only her son Obama was born in Kenya. You are either an extreme fool or an intentional liar. Which is it?
Another LIE from you. Obama never claimed to be born in Kenya, EVER. You are simply full of sh*t.
His literary agent admitted making a clerical error and not properly fact-checking that. That error was corrected, once brought to attention. Further, that error only existed for a write-up of one book. Obama’s own autobiographies clearly ALWAYS stated in them that he was born in HI and NOWHERE ELSE. So you are nothing but a desperate idiot, grasping at straws to come up with excuses for your irrational personal hate.
As there is no such thing as an “usurper in chief”, we don’t have to worry about being fooled by figments of your fevered imagination. We are certainly not fooled by bitter and gullible morons, such as you.
Scientist, I’m not going to defend Romney! I don’t like him either! Last year when this birth certificate came out, it was scrutinized by some typeset experts, and they found that there were different fonts found within the words on this fraudulent document. There are many layers in the .pdf, which shows that it was fabricated on the computer rather than being a scanned document. There shouldn’t be grayscale characters within the words and numbers on the document either, but there is. Just download the .pdf and zoom in on it to find out this information.
Right now, the only thing usurped is my dinner, by my dog. I keep forgetting, Afghans are theives, and agile like a cat.
Your thoughts, please.
Can you answer a simple question or not? What are the visual cues that would allow a moron to obviously identify the document as a forgery? Since you seem truly qualified to answer that question, I’d love to hear it.
But since you do meet the pedigree of a moron, let me clarify what the phrase “visual cues” means. Citation of what someone else said (you are incorrect about his paternal grandmother, by the way) is not a “visual cue” from a document. Imaginary citations of what Obama did not say do not constitute a “visual cue” from a document. Citation of an error the literary agent has disavowed does not constitute a “visual cue” from a document.
I ask again: exactly what attributes is it that a moron would perceive in visually looking at the White House birth certificate that would indicate it is clearly a forgery?
That, by the way, is called a question,
Typical. Every time a big Birther OMG moment turns out to be a spectacular sputtering dud of nothing, we get a bunch of random Birther whiners popping up to throw their tearful tantrums of denial…
I can’t imagine how miserable and pathetic it must be to go through daily life as a Birther…
Yes, we have. Errors such as what?
No, she hasn’t.
He didn’t write it and may have never seen it. It was for distribution to the industry.
Thanks for playing.
“Scientist, I’m not going to defend Romney! I don’t like him either! Last year when this birth certificate came out, it was scrutinized by some typeset experts, and they found that there were different fonts found within the words on this fraudulent document. There are many layers in the .pdf, which shows that it was fabricated on the computer rather than being a scanned document. There shouldn’t be grayscale characters within the words and numbers on the document either, but there is. Just download the .pdf and zoom in on it to find out this information.”
You’re a fool cutting and pasting stuff you do not understand. Okay. That’s consistent with being a moron.
But you began this demonstration of your limited intellect with the following: “Even a moron can look at the White House birth certificate and see that it’s a forgery!”
I ask again: exactly what attributes is it that a moron would perceive in visually looking at the White House birth certificate that would indicate it is clearly a forgery?
G, Obama’s bio on the inside cover wasn’t written by the literary agent, but by Obama himself. Obama wrote that he was born in Kenya, and he didn’t correct it for 16 years! How could it have been an error? Open your eyes!
So, you admit Romney’s birth certificate is phony! I have carefully examined both and my conclusion is-Obama’s 100% genuine. Romney’s <50% chance of being genuine. I am a PhD scientist, which none of the posse can claim (Corsi is a PhD in Political Science which is 99% politics and at best 1% science).
As for the fonts, sorry, they are exactly as would be produced by an early-era electric typewriter. I have many old documents that look identical. Layers are exactly what you would expect when you scan a complex document like that. You won't win an argument with a real scientist son, so you can stop now.
Now, focus on trying to explain why an 18 year old girl would leave her family and travel 12,000 miles to a poor country with minimal medical care, where she didn't know a soul to have a baby. Go ahead, I am anxious to hear a good story.
The agent says she wrote it. So what is your source that Obama wrote it? The Kenyan birth story is literally ridiculous. Only a moron would believe that someone would travel to Kenya to have a baby.
i’m sorry, but you are wrong. Completely. Enjoy your heresay facts though!
I can’t imagine going through life as a stupid Obama loving kool aid drinker. I didn’t copy and paste anything by the way! I’m done trying to convince you idiots of the obvious lies of Obama and his forged birth certificate ! By the way, how well off are you now since he has been president?
It doesn’t say that. Again, you are making up lies.
The only constant errors here are by you. Pull your head out of your @ss!
My stock portfolio has almost doubled since he took over. I am rolling in dough. Thanks for asking. You probably sold everything on inauguration day, you moron.
A LOT better. My retirement accounts have finally caught back up with their value after the Bush years cut it by over 30%.
Well, considering that you’ve displayed nothing but an over-active imagination, I find your latest statements equally hard to believe!
Sorry, but we live and deal with the real world. You are nothing but a gullible tool, who simply repeats any silly lie that any cheap con artist can spoon-feed to your eager, hate-filled empty head.
The only obvious lies here are those coming from you, so stop projecting your miserable failings onto others.
Me personally – I think this country is much better off, now that Obama is President and I very much look forward to what he can accomplish in his second term. It takes a long time to turn around the huge mess we fell into and I’m grateful that he’s around to steer them back towards the right direction. So, suck on that.
You’re done trying because you’re a moron without clear understanding of any of the factoids you garble and, thus, you’re getting embarrassed.
Spewing inanities is no way to convince anyone of anything, boy.
Nice of you to ask. Doing great. Thinking of buying a house, thanks to the lower housing prices, and the stock market rebound.
Megadittomonkeys.
Well, I’ll be able to afford to get a couple of problem teeth fixed soon, and a better quality of prescription medications for my chronic, debilitating migraines thanks to the ACA.
Also, it was Flavor Aid they drank at Jamestown, you idiot.
I am aware that morons see it this way.
My woodworking business (which does zero Government work, by the way) has fully recovered from the economic near-depression caused by the Republicans, and is now doing so well I will be able to donate the legal maximum amount to help re-elect one of the most capable, good-natured, moral and honest presidents to have ever served this great nation.
Thanks for asking!
You are all deceived and being dishonest about how your doing since he was elected. Obama has
spent more than all of the presidents combined, and this country is bankrupt. Your stocks will be worth nothing soon. How is that for Hope and Change?
The tone of this post is much more conclusive than that of http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/decoding-the-long-form-part-2/
There were disclaimers in that post as well as this particular point:
“I think this data field, more than any other, has been the subject of controversy, with many misrepresenting this as the race of the child, and its value as “African American.” Decoding this field is a bit tricky because there is no explicit code set stated for the Father’s Race. Indeed, I cannot find any data item on the tape corresponding to the Father’s Race at all (nor Mother’s race for that matter).
The only race codes specified were for the child (NTFUS Page 6):
So is this now a decided point: the race codes for the parents are the same as for the child?
I am doing quite well, thank you. I am retired and the majority of my savings is in equity investments. The day Obama was inaugurated, the S&P 500 stood at 832 and today it closed at 1373, up about 65% in in 3 and half years. Yes, I am doing very well indeed.
Jonestown.
Pretty sure it was whatever they could find at Jamestown!
I’m doing just fine. I learned to put money into the stock market whenever a Democrat is elected and into treasury bonds when a Republican is election. I doubled my investment in 3 1/2 years.
I cheated my way through the Bush years by holding stock in a debt-free, non-publicly-traded company, then doubled down by rolling over 6 months after Bush was gone, at the bottom of the market!
I wish I could say it was entirely planned, but I’ll settle for being lucky. 😀
Yes it certainly is. There is some justification for a more conclusive tone.
First, since the original article, I noted that in other years, the same codes were used for parents and children, and a little though makes it pretty obvious that this should be the case. Second there is that footnote about race codes specifically mentioning that ALL STATES except New York used “9” for “other nonwhite.”
The key point, however, is that we only have two choices for the race codes, either the table I listed, or “don’t know” because the table Zullo used was a fraud.
Funny, Factcheck, a website which has yet to steer me wrong, says otherwise. I just listed my source, where is yours?
I understand your point about it being the same as for other years. That footnote concerns the code for parents’ race, does it not? If the same kind of format is followed for this matter in other years, why the change in 1968 regarding “unknown or not stated’? How do you determine which specs change and which do not?
Was Zullo’s fraud strictly in using 1968 Codes claiming them to be 1961 Codes or was there more to that issue?
Wow. Bravo, dude.
In my original article, I tried to enumerate every possible objection that someone might come up with. However, there was never any doubt in my mind that the same codes were used for both. I spent 36 years developing software systems that talked to the federal government. They never come up with multiple coding systems for the same information in the same data set.
See also my comment here:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/decoding-the-long-form-part-1/#comment-165028
Give it up kevin. You’ve lost. You come across as nothing more than some random neutered nutter street vagrant, proclaiming that “the end of the world is nigh” and merely bitter at all the success you see around you, yet are too inept yourself to achieve.
Sorry, but the silly games of self-delusion you have to wrap yourself in only work on other weak minded fools, such as yourself. Your imaginary “scary” pretend world and hollow threats have no effect here or anywhere else in the real world.
The only person to blame for your own pathetic condition is yourself.
Hey, that’s better than Romney, who keeps underage male sex slaves in his basement, bites the heads off kittens, and worships Satan while clubbing baby seals and urinating on an American flag!
I meant the footnote concerned race of the child, not the parents.
Also, what I meant about the change in specs, how do you know that the spec was changed regarding #9 for the parents’ race in 1968 rather than being the same in both years, as other specs did not change?
Since I am fortunate enough to be a member of the investor class, I can say that I am delighted to be significantly better off today than on the last day of the Bush administration.
On President Obama’s first day in office, the Dow-Jones Industrial Average closed at 7,949.
The NASDAQ was at 1,441 and the S & P stood at 805.
Today, the Dow closed at 12,909; the NASDAQ ended the day at 2,943 and the S & P finished at 1,373.
In case Kevin is ignorant about the stock market, bigger numbers are good!
Oh that was a typo, it turns out he worships some guy named Stan.
Kevin, you have convinced me. I am looking at a document from a client. It has it all: multiple, bitmapped layers! Crappy, low-quality JPEG background! Clipping paths! White “halos” embedded in the background!
Since this document, and others like it, are engineering reports detailing how my company screwed up, my employer will be thrilled to learn that any such file is a forgery. Thanks, Kevin, you’ve saved us thousands!
________
PS–these documents have enabled me to identify Arpaio’s suspicious entity. The name is buried right there in the file’s encoding, every time. Many here have ridiculed Arpaio for not pursuing charges or indictments. Once you see the truth, you’ll understand. The forger is really, really good, but doesn’t come cheap. Quite Nuanced, I would say:
Click here to reveal THE White House Forger!!!
And Xerox has a black woman as CEO. Clear conspiracy….
No, footnote 4 refers to the race of the child. It’s quite clearly labeled.
They change the codes because it suits their data system and whatever they are trying to measure that year. Emphasis changes. 1968 was a year of a major revision to the US standard certificate.
There is a time delay because of the editing feature so it is kind of like crosstalk.
So how do you know whether the same Codes for the parents were not the same in 1961 as they were for 1968? Maybe the Code was not changed or is there a way to know that the Code was changed- you may know given your expertise.
Because it makes no sense for there to be different race codes for parent and child. It just isn’t done.
You might call this begging the question, but the State of Hawaii says that Obama’s long form is authentic, and it has “9” on it and the race is stated. Again the point is that Zullo lied about the document he presented.
This is the most asinine post of the week (so far).
How pathetic.
So the #9 “unknown or unstated for parents only” is fraudulent??
I’ll check back.
Yes, the old birtherbot primary directive: Any and All Information Found to be in Contradiction to The Preferred Reality is Lies!!! Lies!!! It’s all LIEEEESSS!!!!!
Our motivation for lying about our finances would be … ummm ….. uh …. to keep the guns at our heads silent? It’s not like we’re running for office or anything. 😉
Yes, well, I have ceased responding to certain emails, and just noticed someone called to no doubt rant. No need to return that call. I’m just about tapped out with certain people. Threats have been leveled at me, as well. It is all very sad.
Africans are nonwhite, but do not call themselves “negro” so the correct coding is “other nonwhite” code 9. And you’re banned still.
“Obama has spent more than all of the presidents combined, and this country is bankrupt.”
Normally, I do not respond to nonsense. When W walked through the door, there was a surplus of ~$212M. When Obama walked through the door, there was a deficit of $1T. The deficit has become even larger, because W was running Iraq and ‘Stan off the books as the Black Budget. Obama is including those two in the general budget, which is the transparency he campaigned on.
W was the biggest spender of all. Liberals go along with taxes and spending for the commonweal. Conservatives borrow and spend on invading a country, so someone’s cronies can get their paws on oil.
Taxes are the price of civilization. Limbaugh complained loudly and long about his NYC income tax. He failed to mention that he spent ~$450K on a Maybach, which is a highfalutin Mercedes.
“Your stocks will be worth nothing soon.”
Sorry, but my portfolio is up substantially since Obama took office. I get my statements by e-mail, so the updates are continual.
In fact, I was able to donate my car and Honda bike after a stroke, instead of selling them for cash.
How about you? What have you done?
I feel your pain. As you’ve shared about your family situation, I’m sorry to see that you’re having to deal with this and that it has risen to the level of threats against you.
THAT is unacceptable – family or no, you need to protect yourself and put your foot down to stop any domestic incident, or even threat of such from happening.
Any threat by them needs to be followed by a stern reminder that such things are against the law and all it takes is one phone call for you to get a restraining order filed against them…
I really think you should strongly consider taking that step. It appears to be necessary.
The third-party spam filter this site uses is acting up. I hope that by reporting all the errors to the provider, they will fix it. Anyhow all the comments have been approved. Heck, I even approved one from Dragging Rabbit Canoe thingy. (one time only)
They don’t. African becomes 9.
Obama Sr. said “African” and that is what is on the Birth Event Record and therefore on the Birth Certificate.
When the statistics were prepared for the Fed Health Dept, “African” was coded “9” because there was no other code for “African”.
Now please go dance your way back into your bunny hole.
They all look good to me.
Both codes provided here are the wrong codes for Obama’s certificate. Neither code has fields for Usual Occupation – Student = 0, Kind of Buisness or Industry – University = 9, etc.
Sorry. Dr conspiracy is the liar.
In the original post he said, in both cases, “no code set seems applicable” . How is that a lie?
Thanks, G. And, well, I have done so. I even outed the specific person to everyone else. Many of those others share similar politics, varying degrees of birtherism mixed with simple anti-Obama-ism, but at least they understand there is a line. And that calling out may be worse than any restraining order in this family. Long story short, well I’m not actually sure how to summarize it simply here. But a line has been crossed that is almost certainly irrevocably final, the end of a sibling relationship, not through my will or declaration but just in fact. Just recognition. Not just a matter of living with disagreement. It’s more shocking than anything, given how close we used to be, and how I stood up for him against our father once upon a time.
Not for nothing, I watched Rudy’s Secret Service visit with some interest. While I have worked with Secret Service guys in the past, it was quite telling to watch them at work with someone like Rudy and see so fully how someone like Rudy interacts with them.
From up close, it is just a sickness. In their heads, they justify and have it all worked out, even righteously so. But their hearts are sick.
LOLOL, since they grow on trees, they can’t be any smarter than a leaf.
Of course he is, James! Birfers don’t do stocks. They am much too smarts for that.
They put all their money in gold, don’t ya know.* References the ads on all de birfer sites. That and ads featuring young white women hawking youth in a jar. This is notmeant to betray the fact that nearly all birfers are cranky old white geezers…. but it does.
__________
Coming soon from WND…”Code 9 from Hawaii”…in 3D!
Starring: Joe Don Baker as Sheriff Joe Apario.
“What the F’ did I just watch?! What loving God would allow this to be?!” raves Gene Shalit!
Every one is talking about the race field having a 9 but remember the Kind of Business or Industry also has a 9 coded for it. has Doc been able to find the codes that correspond to this field? The Nordyke BC has a 1 coded for this field while Obama’s BC has a 9 coded for this field. Any explanation Doc?
Charo, read the 1964 Vital Statistics in the United States, Natality.
They made a change in 1964. Aleut and Eskimo which each had separate codes were combined with code 3 for American Indians. Also Hawaiian and Part Hawaiian were combined. So two of the previous codes were combined into a third. So there was a need for some renumbering.
There is also detailed explanation of how the childs race is dependant on the parents.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/vsus.htm
Scroll down until you get to the year you want to review.
The very last section, the Technical Appendix is where you find a lot of info.
Personally, I don’t see this as nearly as big a fraud as Zullo’s claim that the certificate numbers (IIRC, he refers to them as batch numbers) prove that President Obama could not have been born at Kapiolani. WND published a BC last fall from for a girl born at Kapiolani on August 23rd, 1961. Her batch number is considerably lower than the Nordykes and President Obama. That fact destroys Zullo’s theory about how the BCs were processed. He also ignored Stig Waidelich’s batch number which is much higher than the President’s.
But here is an interesting part, back in May the following question was put to butterdezillion at her blog:
Tommy Thompson says:
May 29, 2012 at 2:13 am
Butter, Jerome Corsi just asked this question and I told him to contact you because you have done extensive research on this:
“Jerome Corsi
Last question — also very important — could someone have been born at Kapiolani Hospital in the same month and same year as Obama and ended up with a number that was some 500 lower than Obama — also a number that was six digits long, not five digits one? For instance 1961 009876 Is this type of a number possible.”
http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/
It is a lie by Dr, Conspiracy becuase in THIS post he suggests that the 1961 code is the correct code when he says:
“I filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request on May 2, 2011, with the Department of Health and Human services for the 1961 specifications document. I received my response to request 11-00673 in August of 2011 and subsequently scanned it and made Tape File Information 1960-1961 natality Tape Files for the United States available on this web site”
and he relies on this 1961 code being the correct code to call Sherrif Arpaio a liar.
Yes, in his other post he admits neither code fits…. did it ever occur to you that the 1968 code linked to here also might not be the actual code Sherriff Arpaio’s teeam referenced? That might be another part of Dr. C’s lie?
Sadly, agreed. That self-righteousness is the part that spins out of control and makes them inevitably dangerous, without something to check them in place.
I think you did the right and necessary thing.
I really commend you for handling it this way. Those other family members NEED to know. As they are not just blood, but also part of that siblings own self-viewed socio-political “tribe”, I agree that their disapproval of that sibling’s actions will be a lot more important than anything else, going forward. Worst case scenario, they can work to prevent that person from getting away with causing further harm…or at least mitigate it to some extent. Best case scenario, such “shunning” might eventually get through that person’s thick zealous head…and perhaps one day, they will at least grasp the error of their ways…
Either way, I will remain hopeful and concerned for your safety and well-being. Take care of yourself, my friend and keep posting here, so we know you’re still around and doing well…
It bears noting that Doc wrote the following in his previous article.
Limitations of the methodology
There are a number of cautions that should be stated prior to decoding the data from the form:
We do not have any documentation from the State of Hawaii as to what instructions were given to form coders in 1961, and whether such instructions were consistent with NCHS documentation.
We do not know that coding done on every birth certificate conformed to official instructions; that is, people make mistakes.
We do not know whether the keying instructions provided to the states conforms to the final tape layout of the national file. We know, for example, that New York’s race data was re-coded by the NCHS before inclusion in the national tape (discussion of this later).
We do not know if more detailed instructions from the NCHS for coders found in Parts II-a and II-b of the Vital Statistics Instruction Manual would change our interpretation and use of the NTFUS.
So while Doc might be able to get the code books for 1961 and 1968, he does concede that exact implementation of the Code books by Hawaii Officials in 1961 in a mystery to him.
This was cleared up when Arpaio’s team contacted the Verna Lee, the Registar from 1961 who actually signed Obama’s BC. According to to her, Code “9” at the time meant that data was missing.
Dr. C. relies on the the 1961 code being the correct code to call Sherriff Joe a liar. But in his decoding part 2 post he admits the 1961 code isn’t correct either. Neither code presented here gives any info for Usual Occupation – Student = 0, Kind of Buisness or Industry – University = 9, etc. Which is it?
*yawn* And the relevance of this insignificant field would be….??
Oh that’s right, it really isn’t. Just an irrelvant nit of minutae for disappointed whiners to come up with yet another endless excuse for their irrational tantrums…
That’s true JimR. Doc C. may have the code book but lacks the knowledge of how it was actually implementated by Hawaiin officials in 1961. Arpaio’s team was able to contact Verna Lee to determine just how the codes were actually implementated. According to her, Code “9” was specified to mean the data was “missing”. Arpaio claims that they recorded the conversation with her. Arpaio will be glad to release that recording when Hawaii releases Obama’s BC or at least starts to cooporate with Arpaio.
there are so many differences in the pencil marks
to the federal coding instructions
that I assume it’s all one different local coding system.
Independent of the federal system.
Maybe for the Hawaii statistics system only.
While Huntsville needed additional information anyway,
like the baby-weight. And it was microfilmed and sent to
the national statistics in Huntsville. And the different US-states use different
birth certificates, so the pencil marks make not much sense
in aid to Huntsville.
??? Well, then you are just making up and pulling assumptions out of your @ss.
Sorry, but don’t see these “differences” that you claim…. nor do I see where you have any personal experience in such matters.
Doc C on the other hand…well, he spent his career dealing with that kind of stuff…so I’ll value his opinion on this particular topic over yours…
Maybe Hawaii incorporated their own codes with the NCHS codes. It would not be unusual for states to keep statistical information on births that the Feds didn’t require.
For example, the NCHS even allowed states to add additional medical information on BCs, info the Feds didn’ require.
> Here is a screen shot from the Cold Case Posse video
it’s from Mark Gillar, not from the July 17 Zullo presentation.
They (posse) claim they got the original 1961 manual and own it.
The posse has “claimed” a lot of things, and proven none of them.
Its always “We have reason to believe…”, or “We think that…”
Hawaii on the other hand just said “Here, what we are saying is stone cold fact!”
the data from the tapes themselves, do they still exist ?
Will they be made available one day ?
2134163 birth certificates , but maybe only the even numbers
were processed, as I understood.
—————————————
All the 1701522 anonymized death certificates from 1961 _are_
available online.
That IS the official video. Gillar did the official videos for both of Arpaio’s press conferences.
Page 231 of this document Vital Statistics of the United States
In 1961 from Doc C
1 white
2 negro
3 Indian
4 Chinese
5 Japanese
6 Aleut
7 Eskimo
8 Filipino hmm
9 Other nonwhite
0 Part Hawaiian
1968 after Eskimo and Aleut were moved to American Indian in 1964
1 … White
2 … Black
3 … American Indian (includes Aleuts and Eskimos)
4 … Chinese
5 … Japanese
6 … Hawaiian (includes Part-Hawaiian)
7 … Other nonwhite
8 … Filipino
9 … Not stated
Makes perfect sense. The two codes that became available when Aleut and Eskimo were combined were filled with previous code 9 and 0 and new code was added “not stated”
So let them show it. The image they showed was for 1968 while representing it as 1961. Doc C has provided the 1961 manual
My prediction: The posse will remain totally silent on this issue, rather than admit that they were wrong.
Dr. Conspiracy:
What about the other “9” mentioned at the press conference? The one in box 12b for “kind of business”?
the differences:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/decoding-the-long-form-part-2/
the standard comment is :
> This data field is absent from the NCHS layout and no code set seems
> applicable in deciphering the value of “2.”
the match with the NCHS-coding-outlne is very poor.
Doc was not able to obtain the 1961 manual. However, his FOIA request gave him access to some code interpretation. Arpaio’s team was able to actually get the 1961 manual. Apparently there appears to be some conflict of what Doc C. is citing from his FOIA request documentation versus information gained from the actual 1961 manual.
Caucasion is coded as “1” because it is considered a “white” race. By the same token, a person stating they were “African” would considered be “Negro” and be coded as such.
The numbers are still very suspect. Doc C and the Obots are intentionally avoiding the other coded “9” for discussion. In Box 12B of Obama’s BC, the kind of business or occupation is identified as UNIVERSITY and is coded with a “9”. On the Nordyke certificate, the same box is identified as “PRIVATE PRACTICE” with a code of “1”. So far, Doc C. has provided no information on the coding of this field and why box 12B should have a “9” in it.
Dr.C’s
“Tape File Information 1960-1961 natality Tape Files for the United States”
is in conflict with the
“Vital Statistics of the United States 1961 Volume I – Natality” report from the
U.S. Department of Health,Education, and Welfare
quoted by the birthers.
E.g. “Filipino” is coded separately according to Dr.C’s manual , but not according
to the Vital Statistics report.
So, is there a statistics of Filipino births in USA from 1961 ?
I couldn’t find it.
1961 Hawaiian death certificates have as race:
01,White:1199
02,Black:16
03,Indian:4
04,Chinese:213
05,Japanes:1060
06,Aleut:0
07,Eskimo:1
08,Filipino:396
09,Hawaiian:0
10,Part-Hawaiian:436
11,All other races:115
————————
3440
only 3440 deaths with >17000 births
You really should have read my comment which provides a plausible explanation.
Hello,
You are quoting “natality” Codes. It boils down to what was the Code for the parents (here the father is at issue) in 1961? First off, the video shows the 1968 Code and was presented as 1961. I am speculating but my guess is that Mr. Zullo- who alleged Mrs. Lee (? registrar) stated that 9 was the Code for unstated or unknown-, had no manual to back that up so used the1968 one. That is dishonest in itself. If Mrs. Lee never said that at all, it’s worse yet.
What I saw occurring here was that many were saying “Doc proved way back in March that #9 is the Code for Other” or something to that effect. That was simply not true. He made several disclaimers and speculated. He never conclusively made that statement. All anyone had to do was go back and read what he did say. Now, with no new information other than a footnote that confirms #9 was used for the child, he has made a conclusive statement based upon his opinion (which carries a lot of weight because of his expertise) that the Codes for the parents and the child had to have been the same in 1961. But he has no smoking gun either. The difference is, he didn’t present a Code as something that it wasn’t.
A manual from 1961 needs coughed up by Mr. Zullo.
nbc, you commented on the changes 1961–>1968,
while both of my quoted conflicting reports were from 1961
———————————-
I understand but I also quoted the 1961 report you were quoting from. But looking at the coding in 1961 and 1968 you can tell what happened and why ‘9’ went from ‘other non-white’ to ‘not-stated’.
Yes, I observed the filipino ‘discrepancy’ which is relatively minor, but I marked it with hmmm
They removed the report but here is an alternative link
Gosh that was terribly written. I meant the footnote Mr. Woodman found concerning #9 directing the Code to be used for the child’s race when the child is non-White (or whatever). It did not concern the Code used for parents, even though the child’s race was determined by the parents’ race. It is the Code number used that we are talking about, not how the child’s race is determined.
True, in theory — but Doc. Conspiracy already went to the trouble of making an FOIA request for the manual and sharing it with all of us.
Se we know what in the 1961 manual. The choices are either to accept Doc’s interpretation or else to conclude that there is not enough information to draw any conclusions about the numbers in fields not expressly covered in the manual. Not knowing what the code means is not a basis for alleging fraud.
I mean a manual from Hawaii. If Mrs. Lee would sign some kind of affidavit, I’m sure her competency would be questioned, but there would be some kind of proof. But we don’t have any sworn statement, just someone claiming what she said.
The answer is clear: Obama used his Islamofascist Communist Kenyan TARDIS to go back to 1961 and change the codes.
Oh, and he also went to 1993 to make sure the folks at DC would create a Batman villain called Bane.
Wily Obama!
Wouldn’t unknown or not stated been a consideration in 1961? I am not referring to the circumstances of President Obama, but there had to have been cases where the father simply wasn’t known or the mother did not want to reveal him. A value would have been needed.
This is a question from a blog that I would like to know also. Not being an expert, it may be something obvious:
Where his [Dr. C’s] theory, and Zullo’s fall short, is why would the same “race qualifier” code be used both for the fathers race and for the fathers business/industry? “9″ would have to be a universal/general/interchangeable catch-all code. I can see it being in the race field – but where is the chart that explains it being in the “business” field?
from all the other fields it becomes clear that there is no such universal code.
It’s individual for each field,year. Often, but notalways, 9 is used for unknown or other.
But I doubt it’s federal codes at all.The fed’s won’t code Kapiolani Hospital as 5 ?!
Where all the theories fall short is that the pencil marks are not an indicator of forgery nor an argument against it. We don’t know what Barack Obama, Sr told the clerk at the hospital as far as his race or occupation. All the information is based on what the parents say. In fact, had he told the clerk he was born in Brooklyn, he/she would probably have believed it (Brooklyn being as foreign to Hawaii as Kenya) and that would probably have been entered on the form and the Vattel birthers would be out of business.
The race codes are by no means all-inclusive anyway. For example, where does someone from India fit? They are neither white, nor negro/black. And North Indians are racially quite different from South Iindians. Now, in much of East Africa there have been centuries of trade with Arabia ad Iran and much inter-breeding. The people are a mixture and quite distinct from those of coastal West Africa, which is where African Americans came from. So,to lump Obama Sr.in with African Americans would be incorrect.
Actually, gold has also done well since Obama took office. So have bonds. Real estate would depend on where (NYC-great, Las Vegas-not). Still, despite the moaning and groaning from those on the right, the last 3.5 years have been good for most investors, much better than the previous 8.
Unlike birthers, I need facts before I make up my mind. In this case I simply don’t know. However, I have no reason to find the numbers “suspect.”
How can you say that they had the 1961 manual when their own video shows the 1968 manual which they falsely labeled as 1961? I’m afraid we have the smoking gun here. Zullo is a liar.
Uhhh. Because Nordyke wasn’t a college student?
No, I rely on the 1968 manual from a federal web site (link in the article) to prove that what Zullo said was a 1961 manual was actually a 1968 manual. You don’t have to rely on anything I say to verify this. He is a liar (or whoever wrote the video script is a liar).
The fact that the 1961 code for race is different simply removes the “honest mistake” excuse.
Doc: I’m still confused by this whole phony “controversy”. If I recall correctly from when my kids were born, a clerk or nurse came into the room and asked a bunch of questions. She wrote down what we said, and I don’t recall being asked to prove anything. So, if Obama, Sr said “African”. she wrote African; if he refused to say, she wrote “unspecified” or “refused to say” or maybe wrote “African” based on his birthplace.
Unless they were there when the form was filled out, how can anyone know what Obama Sr. said, and therefore, how can they say if the codes are correct or not?
There is a strong presumption that they wrote down what he said, and the birth certificate has “African” on it, so that’s probably what he said. For occupation, he said “student.” The coding would have been done later and that could be interpretive, but the text values are presumed to be actual.
See my article:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/08/vital-statistics/
So, even if one were to (foolishly) take Zullo at his word, how does the coding in any way indicate forgery? It’s simply some clerk’s guessing which # best fits the actual answer. And with all respect to Ms Lee, even assuming that the CCP spoke to her and is quoting her accurately, she can’t remember what she did with a particular answer 50 years ago.
I really don’t understand the argument the CCP is making. But perhaps I am just not as smart as those guys.
Off topic, but every time someone brings up the fallen price of real estate in Las Vegas, I think back to some douchebag I knew in 2006 who was constantly going on and on about his great and amazing accomplishments, including the house he owned near The Strip in Las Vegas that had been skyrocketing in value. Then I get a pleasant little tingle of schadenfreude.
I know Scientist, that wasn’t the point, Gold had a rush and has peaked. The point was that wingers are suckers for the marketing that comes late in the game. “Gold has quadrupled!” (a rise that started after the tech bubble burst) “Get in on the ground floor!” (Ummm …. yes, 5 years too late …!)
You too? I knew several of the same, I remember thinking, “something’s wrong here” … glad it wasn’t me.
Scientist ” If I recall correctly from when my kids were born, a clerk or nurse came into the room and asked a bunch of questions.
and i have been present when parents were handed a form to complete themselves – no one questioned the answers – in fact, in ny (in the 70s at least) , you had 10 days to complete the form (and name the child) long after you have left the hospital
if you look and mitt romney’s (excuse for a) colb, his mother’s age doesn’t agree with her DOB
It doesn’t matter – he’s white and does not have an Arabic first and middle name.
Also, he tries to conceal that his first name is Willard – it reminds people of the rat collector:
http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2009/06/famous-willards.html
Even the 50% sampling statements are debatable. The Vital Statistics Annual reports only start to mention a 50% sampling rate in 1966.
1965 – “Natality statistics for 1965 are based on information obtained from microfilm copies of the original birth certificates. These copies are received from the registration offices of all States, certain cities, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.”
1966 – “Natality statistics for 1966 are based on information obtained from a systematic 50-percent sample of microfilm copies of the original birth certificates. These copies are received from the registration offices of all States, certain cities, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.”
1967 – “Natality statistics for 1967 are based on information obtained from a systematic 20- to 50-percent sample of microfilm copies of the original birth certificates. These copies are received from the registration offices of all States, certain cities, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.”
1968 – “Natality statistics for 1968 are based on information obtained from a systematic 50-percent sample of microfilm copies of the original birth certificates. The National Center for Health Statistic receives copies are received from the registration offices of all States, certain cities, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.”
And that’s why you would never have such a job. You would be fired.
Yeah, that’s right on top of the WH’s worry list. OMG, we better force Hawaii to give Arpaio what he wants, otherwise he’ll *never* let us hear an irrelevant tape recording. Oh what are we going to do?! Oh oh oh…
john:
Caucasion is coded as “1″ because it is considered a “white” race.By the same token, a person stating they were “African” would considered be “Negro” and be coded as such.
if you SELF-REPORT that you are “african”, what right does ANYONE have to change that?
when the 2010 census questions were revealed, people questioned why “negro” was a choice – the bureau explained that, in the 2000 census, some respondents ADDED “negro” to the choices and √d that
john:
According to her, Code “9″ was specified to mean the data was “missing”.Arpaio claims that they recorded the conversation with her.Arpaio will be glad to release that recording when Hawaii releases Obama’s BC or at least starts to cooporate with Arpaio.
here’s a conspiracy fer ya – verna lives on malia st- malia is the name of obama’s daughter
what arpaio et al say about the conversation they had with verna (after they left hawaii) is hearsay – judge it as such
CODE 9, the way you are using it as a rebuttal, refers to children, not the father. So the BC is still in error, your way. You have to go back and revise the article.
How so? The Vital Statistic Reports for 1961 say that the race of the child was based on the indicated race of the parents. So are you saying that they had to different race tables? since the chiuld’s race was dependent on the parents’ race wouldn’t the code sets need to be the same?
They had specific rules with how to code the child when the parents were not of the same race.
I guess these people have never met darker North Africans, or any “coloureds” from South Africa. Many of them if asked about their race would answer “African” without much hesitation (the immense majority of the coloureds I mentioned even call their language “Afrikaans”) but not one of them would like to be called a negro. Most blacks living in Africa in the early 1960s would likewise have hated the word negro because of its association with slavery. (And even today, most African blacks who do not hate being called negroes live in Ethiopia or … Britain)
The claim that nurses would have had to change “African” into negro “because it was an obvious error” is absurd: the nurse who would have had to do that administrative task, would probably not have seen Obama sr. How would she have known that Obama sr looked like an American negro, rather than like a Mororoccan or a Boer?
mainly the fathers didn’t report their race.
In the 1968 US birth certificates , 123337 father’s
races were unreported but only 2239 mother’s
Then why did they show the 1968 manual and have failed to show the 1961 manual? Why is it that they now change their story to ‘these were Hawaiian codes’?
Sorry John, you have been fooled again
So why did the CCP pretend that these were federal codes then?
Or the father was not reported either? In Hawaii however, the numbers I have seen where quite low. California was high.
There is no reason that the same code would not apply to the parents. Look at the 1968 document where the same codes are used, although Code 9 in 1968 is NOT used for the child, for obvious reasons.
But now the CCP is back pedaling again, claiming that it was not a federal code, but rather a Hawaiian code. Such fools. No shame…
Gorefan, the box marked 9 refers to what race /ethnicity for the parent, not the child, yet dr. C says 9 refers to a child, as provided for in his submission. The BC is in conflict with itself and Dr. C didnt catch this for over a year
Gorefan, exactly, they have exact codes for the children, and here we are not talking about the child, but the adult.
There is no logical reason to have different coding standards here. The 1968 and all the other coding standards I have seen are all consistent for parents and child.
Explain to us why the CCP showed a 1968 document as if it were a 1961 document and now they are moving to ‘well these were Hawaiian codes’ even though they initially called it federal codes?
Something does not smell right.
Dr C has applied common sense and logic and has shown that 9 for race in 1961 did not mean ‘not stated’ and I have shown how the codes evolved logically from 1961 to 1968 when in 1964 Aleut and Eskimo were moved under American Indian, and Hawaii and part Hawaii were reconciled. This opened two spots at coding 6 and 7, and a new code for ‘not stated’ was added.
Simple logic. Dr C clearly outlined that 9 refers to child but logically deduces that one may extend the code to race for the parents. Regardless, the document in 1961 does NOT show that 9 means ‘not stated’.
Simple really. Did you even read Dr C’s contribution in which he outlines clearly that race was the parents’ race? Read Part 2 of his excellent detective work.
Next time, read before you protest too much and look uninformed and foolish.
About Corsi’s “interview’ with Verna Lee:
Really, what are the odds that, 35 years later, Verna Lee remembers all the differences between the 1961 and 1968 coding schemes? I’m thinking they’re pretty low.
I bet the phone conversation Corsi won’t share would reveal him using the 1968 manual to con Lee into giving him the answer he could twist. The conversation would have gone something like this:
Corsi: “The birth certificate has a “9” for father’s race. The manual says “9” means “not stated,” but the birth certificate states a race. Did your office make a mistake?
Lee: “No.”
In other words, he tricked her into giving him the answer he wanted by feeding her bad information about the coding manuals.
Paul Pieniezny:
this family actually filed a lawsuit about the “race” question
Lawsuit of the Day: Fun With Hawaii Birth Certificates
The Gustafsons’ daughter was born in October 2009. After her birth, the Gustafsons submitted a birth registration for her, in which they left blank the spaces left for stating their races as her parents. The Gustafsons then requested two certified copies of her daughter’s birth certificate (just in case, you know, she might want to run for president someday).
Instead of getting the birth certificates, the Gustafsons received a letter from one “K. Lavarias,” an official in Hawaii’s “Office of Health Status Monitoring” (which sounds a trifle Orwellian). From Judge Mollway’s order (citations omitted):
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/lawsuit-of-the-day-fun-with-hawaii-birth-certificates/
Good catch. I’ll be interested in what Zullo and Arpaio have to say about it. I did not see where you addressed some of the other issues.
What about the procedures for numbering the birth certificates described by Ms. Lee? Apparently, she was adament about not making mistakes.
How about Hawaii’s loose application procedures for obtaining birth certificates?
I know the presser was just the other day, but when you are able to look into it, I’ll be interested in what you find.
It is refreshing to find someone who is willing to actually look at the purported evidence and dispute the findings on that basis, rather than simply smear the investigator or call him names, or as in the case of the mainstream media simply ignore the entire subject, or say that it has already been debunked, or claim that it is racism on the part of those who can’t stand the fact that our president is black.
Keep up the good work.
most people, including Zullo, seem to think some of the codes are federal and some state.
But does that make sense ? I’d rather assume they are all state-codes.
While the feds just get the microfilms and make their own codes from it.
They have more resources and better methods than Hawaii.
> But now the CCP is back pedaling again, claiming that it was
> not a federal code, but rather a Hawaiian code.
the 9 in field 9 ? referrence ?
So that would basically be withdrawing their claim since
they do not have the Hawaii 1961 coding manual. At least they did not claim
(yet) that they have it.
I’m sorry, where is there any evidence that Hawaii has loose procedures, or procedures that out of line with other states?
The key point is the Obama’s birth certificate was signed by a doctor in a hospital.
There is no statement in the Cold Case Posse press conference that says Ms. Lee discussed any specific coding.
There’s no error there. In fact, the entire thing, looked at objectively, is yet another affirmation of the authenticity of the birth certificate.
Early on in my own investigation of the birth certificate — which dug as deep as I could at the time — I realized that there was nothing in the PDF to indicate fraud. That being the case, I examined the information on the certificate as thoroughly as I could. The penciled codes were at that time a bit of a mystery to me, although they obviously seemed to be codes for data entry and classification of some sort.
I realized that an inconsistency of information of some sort could well be an indicator that the document underlying the PDF was a forgery. I spent days examining the fonts. I carefully examined all of the spacing, including both the overall placement of letters and the spaces between the individual letters. I examined the tab stops. I of course examined Karl Denninger’s claim that the typed information for Obama didn’t possess the curve of the paper that was seen in the lines of the form, and found that claim (like so many) to be absolutely false.
The bottom line here is that the penciled codes, where their meaning is known, as far as I can tell, check out absolutely. Okay. So we don’t have a key to tell us what they meant by “9” for the father’s occupation. Big deal. There’s no inconsistency there. There is simply a small gap in what is otherwise, by now, an astonishingly deep level of understanding of this document, which has now been taken apart, dissected, and analyzed by thousands and thousands of people, more so than any document in all of human history.
And the net result of all of this dissection and analysis is that every single damn thing on the document — where it COULD be understood, more than 50 years later, and notwithstanding the contrary and constant assertions of liars and conspiracy theorists — has shown itself to be consistent with authenticity.
This latest round of BS is pretty much the final nail in the coffin of the forgery theories. The ONLY thing that Arpaio’s press conference actually seems to have established is that the “Cold Case Posse” including Jerome Corsi, Michael Zullo, Mara Zebest, Mark Gillar, and Sheriff Joe Arpaio has at least SOME members who are lying frauds. How much Arpaio himself knew of the fraud is open to question. There is still some room for particular members of the team to assert that they personally were innocently ignorant of the fact that the information the Posse was representing to the media and public as being from a “1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual” was actually an image of a 1968 tape layout.
I have now personally checked out more than SIXTY significant claims made by birthers, including legal and historical claims regarding the meaning of “natural born citizen.” in EVERY instance, the claim has failed to pass scrutiny EVERY instance. And some of them have turned out to be outright lies.
The birther movement from the very beginning was built on falsehood after falsehood after falsehood. And in every instance, when you dig into what they claim is a pile of sand, you hit rock.
I fail to follow your argument. We have one race table for 1961. There is no other to say the BC is in error.
No. The press conference never said that she said that.
That was in reliance on the 1968 Code. I posed a question above and maybe I missed an answer. What was the code in 1961 for an unknown or unstated father? They were not acknowledged before 1961, and someone just looked at the infant and made a guess?
Where are you reading that?
It appears to me that the father’s race was not reported to the federal government. Dr. Conspiracy, help us out on this here — what exactly would those tape specifications have been used for? Were those specifications for reporting data from the states to the federal government? Or were they an internal federal government document used to specify how they aggregated information that was reported from the states for internal processing and filing?
In any event, there is absolutely no reason why race codes — at whatever level, state or federal — for parents would have been anything different from the federal race codes for child. Anyone who’s worked with data knows you ALWAYS make such specifications essentially the same, to avoid confusion.
Not a single instance of a fraudulently-obtained Hawaii birth certificate has been proffered by the Clown Car Pussies. There is no evidence whatsoever, again, that what they assert is factual.
Evidence. You remember evidence? It’s what not a single Birther has ever had that BHO is ineligible.
No such code appears to have existed. But since the code for a child is never not-stated, the answer is somewhat vague. We do know that for a child ‘9’ meant ‘other non-white’, which is quite in line with race: African.
I am slowly working my way through a lot of documents but so far the 1961 matches (other than Filipino), other sources which outline what race is coded for on birth certificates.
Well, I shouldn’t say “always.” That’s a bit of an overstatement. But avoiding confusion in such cases is certainly very desirable. And in a case like this, where all of the options for “race” for ANY person — be it father, mother, or child — are absolutely identical, then there is absolutely no reason to EVER have a different set of codes for each category of person, and EVERY reason not to.
As noted by nbc, according to the tape specs, there was no such code. It seems to have been added in 1964. See the 1964 vital statistics manual, appendix — I think — d. Going from memory here. Maybe page d-7?
I disagree that you know that for sure. You are making a reasonable assessment. There is no direct proof of that.
What is your explanation of 9 used for occupation?
That’s an interesting question, and one to which I do not know the answer. If I had to speculate, I would say they exist. That said, I’m not sure what use it would be. Occupation and Parents’ race aren’t in the file, nor are there any names.
In any case, I filed a FOIA request for the file.
In 1961, assuming we are referring to the correct source or doc, 9 meant or referred to the race of the child, it meant “other, non-white”
The question is, on the BC, “race of father” not race of the child.
Also, the 9 pops up on the box for the question about Obama;s fathers industry or business. This is a nonsensical 9 , Dr. C is stumped by this other 9.
“African” was not widely used as a racial designation in British controlled colonies /census in 1961. ” African” seems too broad a term, this can cover many types of people.
What would be really good for the cause, would be for BC’s for other people from 1961 Hawaii to come forward with the same “African ” designation, since we know there was more than one. That would be fantastic.
http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/wayne-madsen-foreign-intelligence-agencies-say-obama-birth-certificate-is-fake/
For those interested,
http://www.westernjournalism.com/cold-case-posse-head-mike-zullo-on-forgerygate/
Zullo said that he learned about the Codes 2 weeks ago, but didn’t expound too much-focused on the “layers” more. I don’t know if that means he is backing off the Codes or not because he said that the case is made on the layers. I would think if I had the evidence he said he had about the Codes, that is much more understandable to people. The interviewer was getting lost in the technical discussion about the “layers.” Mara Zebest called in and spoke for a few more minutes on “layers” and said she has a new article at American Thinker.
Why does it indicate forgery? Why would a forger place a non-sensical 9 rather than nothing or a number that made sense?
Hold on to those straws!!
It may not be, but why wouldn’t they use the same codes as used to describe the race of the child, as was done in later versions? It makes a heck of a lot of sense, especially given that the vast majority of birth certificate forms at the time only listed the race of the parents without specifying the determined race of the child.
It’s also been noted that in many cases states have codes that aren’t listed in federal guidelines.
As for African not being a legitimate racial category for a Kenyan in the 1960s, I’m calling BS on that. It may have been fairly unique though. I’m guessing that there weren’t a whole lot of actual Africans in Hawaii during that time.
the 1961 document shows race (child?) to be
white, negro, indian, chinese, japanese and other. Hawaii has a large section for ‘other’ which includes hawaiian and part hawaiian categories, not separately reported in the table.
We do know that the data contains at least information on the white/non-white status of the mother.
I was thinking you said “father” when you said “child” concerning 9 used for non-white- sorry about that. That is the second time I’ve done that!
You are correct. The Kenya census document for that time period shows that african is the preferred description for race.
And why would the entries for the Nordyke twins’ father be marked 1 and 1?
That is totally incorrect. In fact African according to contemporaneous Kenyan census documents show it to be the preferred description. Just search Dr C’s site or my site, it’s not that hard to do the simple search.
Because their father was white?
It’s common sense to conclude that race would be encoded consistently. We know that for child in 1961 there were two categories which do not longer exist in 1968 (Aleut and Eskimo were merged with Indian), and others-nonwhite moved from position 9 to 7.
I have no idea why CCP was focusing on the wrong document to make their claim that federal codes for 9 mean ‘not stated’ in 1961.
Sloppy
I have none, neither 1961 nor 1968 helps here. But remember that the claim was that ‘9’ meant not-stated according to CCP, there is no proof of this and it is contradicted by logic and common sense.
So at best the CCP can claim that we do not know for sure what 9 means. I am fine with that, but they claim it shows evidence of a forgery.
Not very smart.
Would it make sense if the father was not named?
Documentation shows that the aggregate national tape file for 1961 had 2,134,172 records on it. That’s pretty close to exactly half of the total number of births in 1961 (4,268,326). So, yes, they did a a 50% sample in 1961.
Because only even-numbered certificates were reported, our beloved President isn’t on the file.
The tape layout indicates the use of “X” or bl (blank) for missing values in those fields where no data appears. This corresponds with the penciled “X” above the multiple birth fields at the top of the form.
Further data for mortality shows
1959- 1961
1 white
2 Black
3 Indian
4 Chinese
5 Japanese
6 Aleut
7 Eskimo
8 Filipino
9 Hawaiian
10 Part Hawaiian
11 All other
1962-1963
1 white
2 Black
3 Indian
4 Chinese
5 Japanese
6 Aleut
7 Eskimo
8 Filipino
9 Hawaiian/Part Hawaiian
10 All other
11 Not stated (New Jersey)
1964-1967
1 white
2 Black
3 Indian (includes aleut and eskimo)
4 Chinese
5 Japanese
6 Hawaiian/Part Hawaiian
7 All other
In 1964 we know that Aleut and Eskimo were merged, we also see how Filipino has been removed.
Again the same logic/reasoning I applied to 1961/1968 data applies here as well.
the use of the 1961 birth certificates here would be to show the disputed
1961 coding. Tracking down single people like Obama is forbidden anyway.
Maybe allowed, if Obama approves it ?!
However, Obama’s number is odd, so presumably not included.
They may even have the certificate numbers, although they would be left
blank for the public versions. It could explain how the numbers
were assigned, when the batches came in.
Of course, the general use would be statistical :
Health,genetics,population movements,life expectancies
by race,age of parents,birth weight,…
or even how much Hawaii was being “abused”
to get US-birth certificates and by what groups.
Does anything of what Mrs. Lee is claimed to have said sound accurate?
Sure, but then there would be no entries for business and occupation? Or entries for birth place father. And we know that the father was mentioned in the newspaper announcements so again, a flawed hypothesis.
Did you make that up yourself or crib from another liar? I mean where do you get off coming to my web site and posting crap like that? Did you even read the article you’re commenting on? The one that says:
“In 1962, the Kenyan Census used the category “African” to describe black Africans”
That comment had a link to the 1962 Kenya Census instructions.
http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/IPUMSI/CensusForms/Africa/ke1962ef_kenya_enumeration_forms.en.pdf
Now get your lying fingers off my site.
Could that mean not applicable versus unstated?
Is the use of X or blank true for 1968?
Hard to tell.
Y.P.W, you say states can use code numbers that aren’t the same as the federal, implying that this is the Hawaiian situation? Then, if so, what are doing using the Doc’s docs (sorry)??
In the INS (?) paperwork released by a FOIA request on Obama Sr., would there have been a designation of his race somewhere (to show whether African may have been used)? I am guessing not or someone would have brought attention to that. Quick check-nothing
What I heard Zullo say that Lee said was:
One employee coded the forms and another double checked.
They had a very low error rate.
Forms were batched by region and month.
Certificates were numbered with a hand stamp at the end of the month.
Except for the double check part, all of this is available from public sources. I find nothing wrong with what little Zullo actually attributed to Lee. However, Zullo seemed to contradict himself. In one case he said the records were numbered chronologically by date of event, and in another he said they were numbered by region. I think, though, that the certificate numbers we know blow the chronological by event out of the water..
Because the CCP claimed that ‘9’ was a federal code meaning ‘not stated’.
Read the document. Don’t ask me.
Well go look at it for yourself, or is all you can do to ask other people look stuff up for you?
One of the FOIA docs shows Race: Kenya 🙂
No other documents show race.
One document shows that the applicant is married and has one child Barack Obama II in Honolulu.
usually there are no letters in the electronically coded tapes.
Unless they changed them into numbers when they were transferred
to computer files, but that doesn’t look likely.
So, a “V” in the 1959 birth certificates appears strange.
Both digit and character take 1 byte so either way. V is strange as is 0, in other examples I have seen 10 and 11 for these codes.
Hey, there’s a communist under your bed. Check it out.
I did look it up and reported that I found nothing before the editing function closed. Many people are well-versed, and I thought that it may have been addressed.
I thought as an expert in the field of Vital Statistics, you would know.
Okay, I get it…. don’t have to put me into moderation as you appeared to have done.
You popped your cork for no reason. I wasn’t referring to your article, I’m speculating based upon information….and Im not lying. That text says “…Somali or African, etc…” The ‘etc.’ says it all-this is significant. Re read the text for the Kenyan census and think.
Obama Sr told whoever filled out the form that his race was “African”. That was his absolute right. On the 2010 census my wife put us all down as “human”, as is her right. People can call themselves whatever they want to, buckaroo. I know that is a difficult concept for you, but that’s your problem.
There is no “5” code on the BC for name of hospital. The “5” to the left of that box is for data in a box on the facing page.
In this instance, the numeral 9 is suppose to refer to the race of the child, but the question on the BC is for the race of the father. This is an inconsistency,, unless the Fed form intends for this 9 to refer to either or, but the form is unclear about this, I cant see a direct reference there for the possibility. Are we suppose to infer this? If so, why? Also, the Doc seems to be stumped by the presence of a 9 lower down, in the box where it is asked the industry or business of the father. The BC is thus odd and it is messed up.
I’m surprised about the accusation above , it seems wholly unwarranted, and is quite puzzling. I read other comments where slurs are hurled freely toward opponents, yet these people are immune from condemnation, due to their peculiar political orientation. But when I try to show the limitations of the phrasing on an old form, all hell breaks loose and I’m viciously attacked and defamed. Weird.
Scientist, of course Obama sr, may have given “African” as his race. That is not what the whole issue is about- the box in question is a question about the fathers race, but the 9 is a reference to the race of the child. If the 9 can legally work both ways, so be it but show me how that is spelled out.
What is the race of the child of an African and a white? Seems like “9” would be a reasonable guess, since there was no category for mixed (there may be one today). So, “9 for father, “1” for mother and “9” for child is perfectly kosher (that means good).
Let’s move to the bigger issue. Do you believe the ridiculous fairy tale of an 18-year-old-woman travelling 12,000 miles over 5 flights and 72 hrs minimum to have a baby in a third world country and then making the return trip, possibly sneaking across the Canadian or Mexican border? If you do, you are insane. If you don’t then what do some pencil marks matter, since obviously President Obama was born where his parents lived, just as I was, you were, Doc was and everybody else you know was.
This whole birther attempt to nitpick is simply overwhelmed by the lack of any plausible story for a birth anywhere other than Hawaii. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, son.
Exchange students from African nations usually introduce themselves to Americans as being from “Africa” or being an “African” ( at least initially) due to their (correct) perception that most Americans don’t know where , or have never heard of, their nation of origin. They say “:African” to avoid awkwardness or confusion. This is not done as much now as back then, though.
But going from this to someone giving the same response out to be used on an official gov form, that might be less likely. For one thing, the question is much different from “where are you from”
scientist, 9 for father ….really means 9 for “race of child” the father is not the child.
Also, exactly what are you talking about, this mad dash for the border, on the part of Stanley Dunham? huh?
charo: Does anything of what Mrs. Lee is claimed to have said sound accurate?
why would we consider anything zullo said about what verna said accurate?
at this point, it’s all hearsay
The Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:
http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html
I want to thank the Denialists for helping re-elect President Obama. I live in a city that is 50% black, and I cannot describe the anger. As one neighbor said to me, “No white man ever had to show his birth certificate.”
The father and the child are both “9”s. The father is “9” for African and the child is “9” for mixed. It really isn’t that hard. Stop being dense (or pretendiing to be dense).
Without a believable story as to how and why the President would be born anywhere but Hawaii, there is no motive to forge a birth certificate. No motiive = didn’t happen. The birth certificate is REAL, my friend. Pencil marks don’t change that essential FACT.
I say again, unless you give me a credible story for birth outside Hawaii, the pencil marks are completely irrelevant. Do you get it now? Should I repeat it again? Give me your birth story or go home. And make it good.
The race block with the ‘9’ is for the race of the father. The CCP insists that based on their 1961 document, which is actually form 1968, this means ‘not stated’ but the 1961 shows ‘9’ to mean ‘other non-white’ although it does not specify the value for the race of the parents, it makes perfect sense that the same code would be used.
On the contrary, according to Kenya census documentation, African is proper for the description of race and since race is self-reported, african is a reasonable description for race. Heck I found an INS document which showed race to be Kenya.
No cigar.
Why would the code for race for child be different from race for parent? Even the 1968 document shows that the race codes are the same.
You are not making much sense to me here.
A good advice you should take to heart my friend.
uh, scientist, the 9 column has a heading, to indicate exactly what and how it is to be used, apparently- its to be used for race of child, and not to be used for a q. about race of father, but somehow it is. Get it?
nbc, can you give me a breakdown of the result of this 1961 census, hmm? Understand now?
Where does it say it is not to be used for the race of the father?
More importantly, what difference does it make? Here are the facts:
1. The President was born in Hawaii.
2. If birth certificates had never been invented or all Hawaiian records had been destroyed in a giant tsunami, he would still have been born in Hawaii.
Not really. Can you make a coherent argument so that we can all determine what you are talking about.
I understand that African was a perfectly good representation for race in Kenya and so it is no surprise that Barack Obama used this to describe his race. On other documents, the race was Kenya, again, these are self reported descriptors.
Nothing to weird here. And while the document for 1961 does not describe the race of the parents, it makes perfect sense that the same code is used as for the child, as this is common practice throughout these coding standards.
Glad to have been of help
Yes, it is used for the race of the child, but why would the same coding not be used for the race of the parents?
Makes perfect sense would it not? It’s what happens in other years…
You never worked with data on punched cards or magnetic tape did you?
Stupid birther making stuff up again.
It;s this kind of ignorance which so easily leads people down paths of conspiracies when logic and reason could have resolved it much earlier.
Fascinating really
For 1961, there is a column headed with a caption “Race of child” Nowhere does it mention race of father.
The 9 is put in a spot reserved for race of father, when , this 9 is meant for race of child.
This 9 business also pops up for a second column, the q. for business of father. Again, we see a 9 for race of child, supposedly. This stumped Dr. C, as I recall.
“African” may have been offered on the Brit/Kenyan 1961 census form, but so was almost every other racial /ethnic category, as expressed by “etc.” Plus , we dont even know how many “Kenyans” used the African term on this census. One percent? Five?
I was unaware that the so called “anti birthers” were wrapped up in some story about Stanley Dunham being involved in a strange transatlantic marathon and border smuggling operation. This is strange.
David appears to be confused as to how these tapes work There are specific offsets on the data tape which contain one or more bytes of information. There is a location on the tape where the child’s race is stored and there are 11 or 12 valid codes
1 White, 2 Black etc…
The claim by the CCP was that ‘9’ meant not stated, which is true for 1968 where such a ‘9’ is a valid entry for the race of the father or the mother, but not the child as its race is derived.
It makes perfect sense. But it does mean that you have to understand how data are stored on these tapes. See how a little ignorance can lead you down such a foolish path?
As to your african comment, it was to lay to rest the foolish claim that noone would use the term african when in fact it appears to be quite a normal descriptor for race. Since the race was self reported, the choice of ‘african’ hardly means anything.
So why is the CCP and other foolish birthers make such a big deal out of something to which they have no information?
What Dr C has shown is that ‘african’ is a reasonable descriptor for race used by someone from Kenya.
Simple.
I will ask again and keep asking, what is YOUR story regarding the President’s birth? People here can tell you i don’t give up until I get an answer.
Thta is ALL I care about. I do not care about pencil marks. OK?
Let me try to explain this in simplest terms. Imagine you sit in front of a computer and the computer asks you to enter the race of the child. You will enter 1 if the child is white, 2 if he is black, and so on, all the way to 9 for ‘other non-white’ and ‘0’ and ‘V’ for (partial) Hawaiian.
The document is not clear if the race of the father, and mother are stored, at most there is a reference to white/non-white which is a derived field, obtained from values in other fields. So it seems reasonable that such values were in fact reported and that the same coding was used for the race of the mother (1 – white 2 – black and so on) and the father.
Simple logic.
Do you understand now?
Feel a little bit foolish?
Well, the pencil marks are interesting and while some have suggested that ‘9’ disproves that this could have been referring to Barack Obama Sr, more level headed people have shown how ‘9’ would be perfectly understandable as the code in 1961 referred to ‘other non-white’ only in 1964 did the codes change. Given the short duration, it would also be quite understandable that Mrs Lee may not remember.
No mysteries here. Same with the term ‘african’.
Poor birthers still have nothing other than their ignorance and fears to guide them while the enlightened side has official documents, and the express certification and verification of President Obama’s native birth by the Department of Health in Hawaii.
I think actually you hit upon it accidentally, Scientist. The tsunami you mentioned carried Ann Dunham all the way to Kenya, where she gave birth. Then to get home, being a good old-fashioned Kansas girl, she clicked her heels three times while saying there is no place like home…
Oh and ‘9’ means in 1968 unknown in addition to not stated. So if African was too vague to be encoded, one may even understand why a ‘9’ would be used under 1968 coding standards. Again, nothing really of any relevance…
Not to me. To me they are irrelevant. I do have the right to find them irrelevant, don’t I?
You see I really want a good STORY. And none of the birthers have one. That makes me sad…
Now that’s a good story. You see david, Paper is not wasting his time like you are.
By Jove, I think he’s got it.
By the way, for those who mock stories, it is how humans assimilate information. Neuroscientists have shown this conclusively. Trial lawyers know this as well. Supposing you wanted to convict someone of forgery, but you couldn’t come up with a story to tell the jury as to why they forged a document. Do you think you could get a conviction? I doubt it, because jurors want to understand the story. If the story makes no sense they will acquit.
Not the way the CCP says it, but the way it is here: 9 means race of child, and the Q, where it turns up is for race of father. These two dont mix, since Im getting info above that 2 is for black, esp.
Its said the 9 cuts across the board. Ok, where is this stated?
AS to my own theories, its possible he was born in Hawaii, but the way he has behaved, and the way his supporters have behaved has weakened the claim. ( The short receipt BC was initially released and when people asked to see the long form, the Presidents supporters mocked everyone with high childishness, saying very loudly and crudely – this is all there is, the LF does not exist, so shut up and sit down !! When it was later tepidly admitted that, well, maybe there is a copy of the long form, somewhere” they yelled as loud and as crudely as they could ” well, you cant see that one, its private” as if the prez could never have this one let go…..and on and on. I’m decidedly not impressed with the demeanor or decorum (lack thereof) or racialist overtones of the pro Obama anti birther types, at all. Ive seen Bush and Kerry;s grades, why not Obama’s? etc…it goes on and on.
I asked where you thiink he was born and to give me a short summary of the circumstances. i will not give up, sir..
Those were illegally leaked by someone at Yale. They did not release them. Where are Romney’s? Why not his?
PS, didn’t McCain say he was born on a US military base that didn’t exist when he was born? Didnt it take an act of Congress to make him official, they saw his BC but we didn’t
I am also curious if, in the interests of fairness, david, you would be so kind as to comment on Romney’s bc, which says “Void” and has the bottom cut off. Would you say it is a better or worse document than either of Obama’s? There is an election and one of those 2 guys will be President. You could prove that Obama is a liar, but if Romney is a worse liar, then that would still be in Obama’s favor.
Congress did NOT see McCain’s birth certificate, only a single reporter saw it for 15 minutes, no copies allowed. You are just a fount of misinformation. You really ought to hang it up, this isn’t really a fair fight.
Romney might turn out to be a big liar, he already is a huge security threat to the entire world.
I remember reading a Noam Chomsky book once…in it said “there is no such thing as a ‘leak'”
No and no.
Hey everyone: he’s using a Jewish communist as an authority. Yesssssss!!
I think Chomsky refers to himself as a “libertarian socialist” Ive read about seven of his books and enjoyed them very much.
When I said Congress, I was referring to a few members, not the whole gang… I remember somewhere about this, I think you are referring to a Washington Post article where he (McCain) supposedly offered one reporter a brief look at his BC
Romney or Obama are the choices, my friend. That is the reality. So, I will take that as a half-hearted endorsement of Obama. We have survived 4 years of him and done OK, so 4 more should be a piece of cake. Romney is an unknown and that is risky.
Majority will, Congress did certify McCain in some capacity or to a certain extent, even if I dont recognize the action, are you saying Congress did nothing at all to help poor ole McCain? No resolution or whatnot?
Not a single member of Congress saw McCain’s b.c. None has ever said they did.
Yes, they passed a resolution, but they did so without ever seeing the b.c.
You see david, no President has ever released his b.c. prior to Obama. Some placed it in their Presidential llibrary after they left office. Do you know Reagan’s b.c. was created when he was 32 years old? Eisenhower’s was similar.
It was a non-binding resolution, like an opinion, with no legal significance or bearing.
“. . . the nonbinding Senate resolution passed Wednesday night is simply an opinion that has little bearing on an arcane constitutional debate that has preoccupied legal scholars for many weeks.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/01/AR2008050103224.html
So what about the Reagan’s or Eisenhower’s BC….what matters right now is Obama’s and Romney s. Where can I see Rowney’s ? Whats up with the VOID stuff?
Its not a weak endorsement of Obama, Obama has violated the Constitution on several points and he should be impeached, removed from office, then criminally indicted, tried convicted and then sent to prison for the rest of his life.
He chaired the UN security council, he obliterated Libya against the war powers act, and arguably joined foreign nations as a party to a lawsuit against one of our states, those are three instances,
He also shields Bush/Cheney from criminal investigations, that’s bad enough alone.
Then there is the federalizing of certain state statutes, he’s unleashing 30,000 spy drones over the skies of America, and he thinks he can execute citizens with no indictment or trial…He re signed the Patriot Act, and signed the NDAA, which MSNBC said or strongly implied put us a hair away from martial law…….he also has TSA goons sticking their hands down our family members pants at the airports when he could stop this nonsense with just one phone call… the list is endless.
Romney is a special danger, hes got the whole Bush-neo con zio terror team for advisers,….
This whole either/or, left /right nonsense is what is causing the mess,. People need to grow up and see that both major political parties and their allies are murderous outlaw gangs. this idea that one side is good while the other side is bad is just simple minded childishness,.
To Doc, i didnt want to go into politics but I was asked several questions….
What is really interesting is that President Obama had already released a book and it was well-known his father was not an American Citizen, and yet there was no “arcane constitutional debate that has preoccupied legal scholars for many weeks.” And yet, we had many court cases by people who thought they knew better that somehow the President was not a natural-born citizen than all those legal scholars who had no problem debating about whether McCain was a natural-born citizen. Shows how out-of-touch birthers are to the actual realities, David.
Since the lithium did not work, have you tried Prozac?
Here you go
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/29/us-usa-campaign-romney-birth-certificate-idUSBRE84S1GF20120529
It says “Void”, I don’t see a seal, and the bottom is cut off. Plus it’s a COLB-type document, which apparently wasn’t good enough for Obama.
You have one seriously bizarre circus performance playing loud music in your head.
Do you read WorldNetDaily daily? Just curious.
I feel sorry for people who cant see that this is a stage managed election and that the BC issue is fueled by both sides of the same coin. I only get involved with the BC stuff because its so much fun.
Oh boy. God help us if you discover the word “sheeple”.
That was his book on the Tao of gardening. He actually said “there is no leek.” He then went to the local pizza parlor and asked them to make him one with everything.
lmao
Has someone compared the years that are available? What’s available for the 1) Manual, 2) tape layout, 3) results? Has Hawaii published any annual stats themselves?
I’d like to apologize for having done that earlier myself. I suppose, thinking that I had already retired, I got a bit lazy. In the end, I came to my senses, and said to myself, “Read the Stupid Manual.” I went and read the stupid manual, and got the answers I was looking for.
Has anyone tried to get the manuals at the state level? Hawaii or any other state?
As I recall, the 64 manual appendix listed the races in the same order as the tape specs did. Not surprising.
That’s probably not what you were asking, but I haven’t seen anyone comment on that, so I’ll leave it.
From your link:
FALSE. Not every country has the same racial classifications as the US does.
Here is a 1961 travel guide for Africa. http://www.scribd.com/doc/54152116/AFRICA-A-Z
This is a pretty famous book as it was the first all-Africa travel guide published. My library has 3 copies of later editions — this is a first edition that I had to get off Ebay. Each country has a chapter. The Kenya chapter contains the following race classifications: European, African, Asian, Multi-racial. Note that the book puts descendants of Indians in the Asian category.
These designations are not the same for other countries. South Africa’s entry refers to Afrikaners, Europeans, “coloreds” or mulattos, Cape Malays, Indians, and Africans. (I didn’t see any Asian references.) BTW — the 1996 South African Census has the following groups: African/Black, Coloured, Indian/Asian, White, Unspecified/other.
The book also refers to black Americans as “American Negros.”
we still don’t know what codes Hawaii used in 1961.
It wasn’t just the codes from the DrC manual since there
are additional fields. Did they use the federal codes in box 9 ?
Any 1961 Hawaiian certificate with a “V” in box 9 might give some evidence.
The official 1961 vital statistics only lists white,negro,Indian,Chinese,Japanese,other
births while having classifying them into 9 groups, not 11.
Maybe not all states did report the 11 groups.
Are Filipino births in any US-1961 statistics ? That could give another hint.
The online (anonymized) birth certificates from 1968 and death certificates
from 1961 from the tapes contain no letters.
Maybe the Univac allowed letters but had to be recoded for the IBM
and death certificates had higher priority and were done on the IBM.
But what did Hawaii do, what computer, what system ?
david,
there are several problems and we still don’t really know what the 9 was supposed to code for.
But the point is, that Zullo apparently can’t know it either and showed the 1968 form in the video and said it was the federal code in box 9 and that was one of his major
points in the press conference and the written report
justlw,
>> The fed’s won’t code Kapiolani Hospital as 5
> There is no “5″ code on the BC for name of hospital. The “5″ to the left of that
> box is for data in a box on the facing page.
you mean, another document left to Obama’s ? The code still on the same
physical paper as Obama’s and presumably
coded before it was bound.
The Dr.C seems also to think it belongs to Obama’s in the 2011 thread
OK, I misremembered. It says “Blocks from the other form” here:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/decoding-the-long-form-part-2/
Blocks from the other form
In a few cases, there are codes visible from fields on a form with a different
layout adjacent to the actual birth certificate.
Delving into some of the reports. From the VITAL STATISTICS OF THE UNITED STATES
1961 VOLUME I-NATALITY http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsus_1961_1.pdf
Race
Of 9,128 male births in Hawaii, only 116 Negro males (1.27% of all births), 1,263 Other males (minus Hawaiian and part-hawaiian)(14% of all births)
From the instructions:
SO: The “Negro” classification was actually quite rare compared to “Other”.
From the 1960 Statistical Abstract of the United States http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1961-02.pdf
SO — the Father’s Race and Mother’s Race coding key HAS to be the same as the Child’s Race. The coder needs to be able to look at both parents and see it 1) they are the same; if not, 2) is either one Negro, and 3) is either one white.
That’s OK; I misremembered, too — I thought it was more clearly on a different sheet of paper. It looks like the section we can’t see is relatively narrow, and part of the same bound page.
The VITAL STATISTICS OF THE UNITED STATES
1961 VOLUME I-NATALITY http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsus_1961_1.pdf
says “Based on a 50-percent sample.” on most of the charts.
I’ve seen Hawaii birth certificates (short form) that say American, Polish, White, and Caucasian. The nurses didn’t change them, obviously. They reported what the parents wrote and the coder figured out what to put. I’ve also see Balinese and Korean. The actual codes include some country of origins (Japanese, Chinese, and Filipino) but not all — plus they changed a few times as we’ve seen. Nurses can’t be expected to care about the classification coding. The coders were also doing the coding miles from the hospital and days away from the birth.
The whole thing isn’t as black and white as some think. (pun intended.)
Source for that please?
Look at the rest of the fields in the 1961 and 1968 tape file layouts. There were major changes between the two in many of the fields. In 1961, some of the fields had “X” or X bl” for “Not Stated”. (bl meant blank) In 1968, some of those had changed to “9” or “99”.
(The allowed values for Age of Mother in 1961 were 0 to 99, in 1968 they were 12-49. Number of children born alive in 1961 was 01 to 99, in 1968 it was 01 to 54, with 99 being Not stated. I found those all amusing. Geek humor.)
With variation like that, no one should be able to answer what a 9 meant for a particular field in a particular year. Particularly not a 95 year old who had probably been retired for 30 years. (Except maybe Sheldon Cooper. Humorous Geek.)
From the second page of the 1961 tape layout: V is printed as “+” and punched as 12th pos. (no idea what that means), X is printed as “-” and punched as 11th pos. bl is blank.
I’d say RTFM, but I just did that myself.
You need to get outside and travel a bit. Most of the world doesn’t divide people into black (or negro) and white. And particularly in Hawaii, of all the US states, nurses wouldn’t touch what a person writes in the race field of a form. We are a blended society. People often have a heritage of an Asian country (or countries), Portugal, Pacific Islander, and Northern European – just for starters. Want to have some fun? Do Census work here! Picking a category for ethnic heritage is quite the challenge for most people. Many choose the one which had the greatest influence on their family, although others refuse to answer, choose “other”, or submit a long list.
Negro is not a common term here and never has been, despite a strong military presence. It’s a southern US term, while the early “white” mainland haole influence in Hawaii historically came from NE US, with the west coast appearing as trade was increasingly established. Identity by country of ethnic heritage is far more likely, with African making perfect sense within our culture.
Where can this be found? Link please? Look for + and – in the data, the key says that V is + and X is -.
ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Health_Statistics/NCHS/Datasets/DVS/natality/Nat1968.ZIP
http://www.nber.org/mortality/1959-1967/mort1961.zip
no “+” either, some “-” but with other meanings and i.e. not in the
race-fields
I’m totally with you on this… *yawn*
Dude please watch your self.
Forget the number 9 for a second. Arpaio and Zullo presented documentation about the codeing specification and stated unambiguously that they were the 1961 codes.
Doc has PROVED that the specs that A&Z said were 1961 codes were actually 1968 codes. That is the lie, pure and simple. The 1968 document is clearly labeled 1968, and the Doc has demonstrated that the A&Z document is exactly the same 1968 document he found years ago.
When A&Z then try to interpret the number 9 according to the 1968 specification, they are wrong, and they were wrong based on a bald faced lie. A lie that they knew was a lie. They could not have been deceived, the document is clearly and unambiguously labeled 1968.
Why on earth would a race qualifier code be placed in a business/industry field? Are there “White Businesses” and “Indian Businesses”?
The number 9 in the business/industry field is a business/industry qualifier not a race qualifier. The values in the two fields are not related.
The number 9 comes from a completely different code set. It is most likely a field that was not required on the Federal Stats, so the Feds didn’t provide a standardized code set for it. Hawai’is system required it so they applied their own code set. You need to get the 1961 coding instructions from Hawai’i to find the answer as to what it means, though ‘Student’ would be a pretty reasonable guess, given that Obama Sr. was a student.
The Feds probably didn’t even care what hospital. They might want to know hospital v home delivery though. Then again, maybe they didn’t care at all, and it was Hawai’i that was interested in that datum and so used their own code for it.
It isn’t necessarily that every year has a different codeing and therefore 9 is different every year.
The point is that each different KIND of data field has its own code set. There is no reason for unrelated fields to have related code sets.
Since the 9 business seems to be unsolvable, Doc and Zulloes efforts notwithstanding, lets move along…
Anybody know anything about the Kenyan authorities saying that the birth record seems to have been tampered with?
What about the alleged recent discovery of a record of Obama’s birth being found in an archive in London?
No. McCain’s father was stationed at the Coco Solo Naval Air Station when McCain was born. Coco Solo was established in 1918. McCain was born at Coco Solo in 1936.
Another lie you have swallowed from somewhere, and easily checked to boot.
When will the light bulb turn on for you?
I guess you hadda be there.
Position 11 and 12 refers to the keypunch position on a Hollerith card. There are 12 positions in a column, from top to bottom: :
+ -> twelve
– -> eleven
0 – zero
1 – one
2 – two
3 – three
4 – four
5 – five
6 – six
7 – seven
8 – eight
9 – nine
Punching a hole in the 12th position was known as making a 12-punch and was accomplished by keying the ‘+’ (plus sign) on the keypunch keyboard. Likewise an 11-punch was accomplished by keying the ‘-‘ (minus sign).
To encode the number -8 (minus 8) you would key the 8, then backspace and overpunch the minus sign. You did this when you needed the space on the card. There were only 80 columns remember, so this was an early (c1920’s?) ‘data compression’ technique. Usually, a positive number left the 12-punch blank and you only worried about overpunching the negative numbers.
The overpunching technique was a PITA, and when it could be avoided they would put the minus sign in its own column.
Wikipedia: Punched Card
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Obama’s possible Kenya BC is being examined right now.
Its seems we have too many people who lift their ‘truths’ from corporate media…Keith, do you know what an ? means?
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?409214-OBAMA%E2%80%99S-KENYAN-BIRTH-RECORDS-DISCOVERED-IN-BRITISH-NATIONAL-ARCHIVES&p=4492711
Whats does anyone make of this? what is this?
This is an article from The Daily Pen, which has been irrefutably caught out in outright birther lies before. So I make of this that it is most likely a load of dung.
I could be wrong.
The Daily Pen, like the Israel Insider, is unadulterated libel.
Why are they not sued? An anecdote from the Rocky and Bullwinkle show:
There was a network actor named Derwood Kirby. On the Rocky and Bullwinkle show, there was a hat called the Kerwood Derby. The real Kirby sent a cease and desist lawyer letter.
The show’s producers sent a letter back: “Go ahead and sue. We need the publicity.”
The Daily Pen is written by a member of the Christian Taliban. They and the Afghan Taliban could easily exchange mantles.
show us the evidence then. Funny how they claim they did a search but have no printouts of the hand written notes, nothing. The original posting came from a site that Dr C has exposed as being somewhat creative in its arguments and evidence.
So you admit that the CCP not only appears to have misrepresented the nature of the document they showed in the video but also that the evidence of the ‘9’ is insufficient to draw a conclusion of forgery?
Will the CCP be making a statement soon to present either the 1961 manual or admit that they were wrong? Remember the argument was that the ‘9’ was in reference to a federal code which meant ‘unknown or not stated’…
On this, we agree…
*rolls eyes* You really need to learn how to become more discerning and develop better judgment.
You seem to be too quick to leap towards any tabloid-level rumour-mongering that is fed in front of you… that is called being susceptible to gullibility.
Sorry, but unless there is some substantial real tangible EVIDENCE that could possibly match up to and legitimately challenge the OVERWHELMING body of OFFICIAL records, which support Obama’s birth in HI, then there is ZERO reason for any thinking person to take such specious rumours seriously at all…
When tabloid magazines show pictures of Batboy on their cover and interview people who talk about Lizard People, do you just instantly fall for those stories too???
9 as a code for not stated could be applied to a race qualifier as well as a business industry.
That seems just as likely as the penciled 9 being the code on the form for both race and business industry purely by happenstance. But I am speculating as well.
Ah, no one can refute it. let me go again- the 9 pops up twice, so for 50% the Doc C is stumped, ok? ( the q. is:’ business of father’, the answer is 9, which means “race of child” but this does not follow, but there it is….. Now moving right along- the Q. is “race of father” , the given answer is 9, which means, not to the CCP but here, it means “race of child” again, this does not follow, but there it is anyway. Now- it has been suggested that this 9 can mean more than just “race of child” If so, then show how, where is this spelled out on the doc. There is a spot where 1, 2, 3 etc is used to denote the race of parent, but that is elsewhere. Lets see the exactitude , GO!
This has to be the dumbest thread I have read in a while. Why so much weight on a number. Look at a picture of his father, he is African…not 9. Even if there is never an explanation for the 9 coding…his father is still African! No amount of code magic will ever change that.
Sorry, but what are you babbling about? “Refute” what, exactly?
Get a clue – absense of evidence is exactly that – ABSENSE of EVIDENCE. There is nothing to refute, because there is nothing to base your fantasy speculation on at all.
But hey, keep dancing around and convincing us you are nothing more than a pea-brained idiot with limited cognition skills…
*yawn*
Agreed…
The specious speculation about nits of inconsequential nothingness simply boggles the mind…
*yawn*
But hey, when Arpaio’s clown show promises turned out to be such an underwhelming dud, the desperately bitter crazies have no other outlet for their delusions than to grasp at flimsy straws, so what else should we expect than such rabbit-hole silliness as this…
Sadly, I was there. I am the world’s worst keypuncher, so writing a program on cards was torture. I had successfully blocked out the + and – and the backspace (which as I recall was a very jerky clunky thing). No thanks for those memories. (But many thanks for the answer.)
No, we’ve had much dummer threads, as well as posters. The person coding the BC was doing it DAYS and MILES away from even a picture of Obama Sr. Say you have a stack of docs in front of you to code. You look at the BC, you look at the chart, you call your supervisor over, you have the following conversation.
“What do I code for African?”
“Hmmm… it could be Negro. Could also be Arab. There’s all that violence in South Africa right now that I saw on the news between the Negros and the Whites.”
“Negros in Hawaii are pretty rare and I’ve never seen African or Arab come up before.”
“Good point. Unless we know for sure, we’re better off putting Other.”
“OK, did that count as my break?”
OR
“Mrs. Lee, what code do I use for “African”?”
“If it isn’t on the list, put “Other.”
“Thanks.”
Question about the number nine. . .if it means “non-white other” then why was it used on both the father’s race AND to answer “kind of business or industry”. Really? He’s in the business of “non-white, other?”.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine.
Number nine. -John Lennon
I can’t find the comments now but a person with the handle Keith suggested as I understand that there are entirely different Code sets for each kind of category so taking the birth certificate at face value, the 9 Code meant student for business/industry and it meant other non-white for race. I replied that it is just as possible that 9 meant not stated for both (it could apply to both logically) and that the chance of that being the case was just as plausible as there being two 9’s on the form having different meanings totally by happenstance. We are both speculating, IMO. He lives in Australia so his response will likely be forthcoming tomorrow.
A “1” in box 2 did not mean “white” it meant male and a “2” in box 2 did not mean “negro” it meant female. So yes, different boxes would have different code sets.
If you’re taking a multiple-choice test and the answer on question one is ‘B’, does that mean the answer to question 2 is ‘B’? It could be, but that doesn’t mean it is. Each line has different coding that means different things for each line. It’s done that way so the data-entry person doesn’t have to spend hours typing in long-form each response. It also saves a bunch of storage space on the storage medium used at the time, which wasn’t even close to what we have available to us nowadays.
“Number nine. -John Lennon”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG0wksBzKSc
Each data field has its own coding system. Race can use code “1” for one thing and Occupation can use code “1” for something else; however, in the 1961 data, code “x” is often used to indicate “not stated.” Here are the not stated values used in the data:
Farm Residence – X
Age of Father – X
Age of Mother – X
Nativity of Mother – 3
Children born dead – X
Children born alive – X
Attendant at birth – 4 (other or not specified)
Gestation Period – X
Weight at birth – X
Legitimacy – X
Congenital Malformations – X
Still confused about how the system works? How embarrassing…
9 in context of race means ‘other non-white’
9 in context of business means ‘xxxx’
As someone else pointed out, if you answer B on question 6, can you no longer answer B on other questions? And does B mean exactly the same? No, it means what the coding book tells you it means.
So clueless.
What’s funny is that as someone who has developed specifications for automated systems to do just this kind of coding, I have sat in meetings with vital statistics officials and had similar discussions. They develop policies to deal with the question.
One of the more humorous examples was what to do with “Martian.” Remember, that race is self-declared by the informant (typically the mother) and there are folks who think they have been impregnated by space aliens and “Martian” really does come up (particularly around New Mexico). Some jurisdictions won’t take “Martian” for an answer, considering it facetious (the exception to the “whatever the parent says” rule). Others, I seem to recall, will take it. That said, it is still necessary to find a code to report to the NCHS.
That was a long time ago, when things were simpler. The birth certificate race code table TODAY is 31 pages long!
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/Appendix_E_Accessible_Race_Code_List_Update_2011.pdf
Perhaps today they would use code “L06” for Martian.
I still do all sorts of coding like that. You want to make it as easy and fast as you can for the data entry people. Another way to look at it is like menu options…if you select 9 on one menu and it sends you to another menu, option 9 doesn’t mean the same thing on the next menu…and you definitely don’t want people having to type in the complete description for the menu options every time.
Wouldn’t having one number stand for the same concept throughout also be easy? It’s not like putting the 9 in the space in this case would send you to another option as a menu would. As noted above, the coding was simpler then. I put a link on a thread to My Very Own Point of View where the blogger found references to the use of not stated in a footnote of a manual, but I don’t have the specifics at hand. If you are interested, I’ll find the link, but I have an errand to run.
Not in 1961. In 1961 there was no code for “not stated” in regard to race.
What if the mother didn’t know the race of the father or didn’t want to relate it? What value would be used? Think of scenarios other than Obama.
The race of the mother.
“When the race of only one parent was missing or not stated or ill-defined, the race of the other determined that of the child. Beginning in1964 when race was not stated, the race of the child was allocated, as the birth record was electronically processed, to white or Negro according to the race of the child on the preceeding record. If the race on the preceeding record was white, the assignment was to white; if it was to nonwhite, the assignment was to Negro.”
Notice what the procedure was prior to 1964.
There is also this:
“In 1965, as in years prior to 1964, ill-defined or not clearly identifiable races such as “oriental” or “yellow” were assigned to a specific category such as non-white, Chinese or Japanese.”
So “African” in all probablity was “other nonwhite”.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/nat65_1.pdf
Again I re-iterate my demand for a credible story as to why a pregnant 18 year old with no money would have (or could have) travelled from Hawaii to Kenya (or even Britain). That is the first step and one the birthers have never succeeded in responding to with anything remotely credible. Until such a story is proferred, all “records” of a putative foreign birth are of no value whatsoever. This isn’t corporate media vs blogs, but simple common sense.
Anti-birthers have a completely credible and reasonable story regarding a Hawaiian birth-both parents lived in Hawaii. That makes a Hawaiian birth the default position. It really doesn’t even require proof, since it is self-evidently true in the absence of an alternate narrative.
One of the things that you don’t seem to understand is that the people doing the coding probably never saw the parents or the child. They only had what was written on the BC by the parents to figure out the race of the child.
You keep referring to the race of the child when I am talking about the
father.
I believe Doc said up above they would generally use “x” for unknown or unstated. But there is no evidence Obama Sr. refused to state a race. He seems to have said “African” since that is what they wrote and that was coded as “9”-other nonwhite, which is certainly reasonable. With only 9 categories you can’t cover every possibility (people from India are neither white, nor black, nor Chinese/Japanese, so I guess they would have gotten other nonwhite in 1961). There weren’t that many people from India in the US in 1961, so it probably wasn’t a big deal. I’m sure they have their own category (perhaps several) today.
Well, well, doctor, the poster called NBC is claiming to know more than you…..in context, 9 means XXXx, well, its nice to be so self assured and comfortable with a XXXX . this being the certitude of knowledge., ha!…Must be some sort of divine revelation, lol…..This is funny. …nbc , go back and re- read the prompt. and provide the evidence, in quotations marks…. Now the doc is saying – or implying- Arpaio is just using all of this to raise funds. This flies in the face the good sheriffs track record and decades of experience- meaning, to the dense- there is no need for tricks to win again. A 12 yr old can see this.
I think the doc sees the joke behind all of this and you, his sympathetic posters, are merely his suckers. Meta- anyone? haha. The prize goes to who ever can follow along…. IF the 9 can mean other than “race of child” as posted, then show this. A simple request….If not, then all of you have failed and you need to go home to suck the proverbial thumb…. A statement by an opponent about fund raising based upon a story, tsk tsk, ever heard about something called sour grapes? This site is littered with the racialist supporter, the hater-in-chief, the guilt ridden whitey, the one who got a 50% on the 9 issue….Last I heard, a 50% earned someone an F. haha. Now- we will see just how small minded and self righteous the proprietor is….Does Voltaire’s dictum apply here or is this a dictatorship?? If no, then I have won absolutely.
The examples he gave seemed more like “not applicable” to me. But we could go round and round forever, without something more concrete.
Or we could stop and admit that pencil marks don’t matter, the information in the boxes is what does. Especially the ones for Place of Birth and Date of Birth, which are all one needs to know to determine whether the person is qualified to be President.
Let’s suppose there were no pencil marks at all, or the clerks were doodling Pick 4 numbers or following Roger Maris’ quest for 60 home runs (which happened in 1961); would that invalidate the information in the boxes? The answer is no.
Dave-Where are the pencil marks on Romney’s b.c You can pretend he is irrelevant, but there is an election coming and either he or Obama will be President. So his b.c, is just as important or unimportant and is to be judged on the same basis as Obama’s. So where are HIS pencil marks?
Does that make sense to anyone?
I suppose we could ignore every post on OCT since the 2008 election was already decided, no law suits have moved forward, … . The posts could just stand as FYIs. Yet there seems to be a significant number of people who continue to spend quite a few hours here many days of the week. I found myself doing it and thought “why?” Here I am again after backing out of my resolve to never return, especially because this is not always a good place to be. It’s too hard to be a casual commenter here.
Begone Charo! Spend your free time with your kids!!!
Glad someone finally went there. With all this 9 business, there’s got to be a good Herman Cain joke somewhere. Herman Cain is the “other nonwhite” candidate?
Ay, that was lame. Sorry, guys. Hmmm….
9 is “other nonwhite”, and 9-9-9 is “just plain, poor white”?
Well, charo, why would you assume that posts on a web site have any meaning in the real world? Courts consider the matter resolved (as is obvious to anyone who has followed the cases). The 2012 election will not be decided by pencil marks on a 1961 document. Arpaio’s “investigation” is a joke, because unlike all other law enforcement investigations in the Universe, there is no actual goal of bringing charges. This web site and all the others are like episodes of Seinfeld, they are about nothing. Still, that doesn’t stop them from being entertaining if you have the right mindset.
I disagree with this statement.
I have always disagreed with this statement.
I always believed that one could test the image for information-related clues as to whether it was genuine or a fake. The importance of any such clue has to be decided for that particular clue. But the information is relevant.
In fact, about the first words out of my mouth after Arpaio’s press conference were that if what they were saying was truly correct, it could be enough to raise legitimate suspicion of forgery.
About 4 hours later I was on TV stating, for the record, that I was already — by that point — skeptical that they actually possessed the “1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual” they claimed to have.
And it very, very much appears I was right.
The other side of this coin is that when an item checks out — particularly if it is an extremely obscure item such as this one — that verification carries with it authentication value.
Given the scarcity of births in Hawaii with a 1-Caucasian mother, and a 9-Other nonwhite father, any forgery theory must now posit that the supposed forger went to the trouble to find the 1961 statistics coding tape codes, and pencil on the appropriate code.
Therefore, in my opinion, the fact that this very obscure penciled “9” checks out as meaning exactly and precisely what it should be if the certificate were genuine — “other nonwhite” — on top of all of the other authenticating evidence we’ve seen, is pretty much enough to put the legitimacy of this document beyond question, even for a skeptic from the “Show-Me” State such as myself.
John, forgery is impossible. Why? Because Hawaii has consistently verified the information on the form. Now, if someone wants to say that Hawaii is lying and is in on the conspiracy, I would counter that they can no more forge one of their birth certificates than the Federal Reserve can counterfeit a $100 bill. If they were in on the conspiracy, they would simply produce a form to suit the needs. It’s their form and they know more about it than you, me, Doc and Zullo combined and could produce one that no one could possibly refute. Of course there is no conspiracy.
A further note: No birth story other than birth where the President’s parents lived in 1961 makes the slightest sense. You yourself have written a satiric piece mocking the Kenyan birth meme as absurd. So what would be the motivation to forge a Hawaiian birth certifiicate to report a Hawaiian birth?
No, not to me. My guess is that Dave spends a lot of time muttering to himself, and that his ramblings makes sense to him. That’s probably what they said about Samuel Beckett, too . . . maybe Dave should start writing plays.
What cracks me up about this whole thing is that if we take one of Zullo’s statements at face value — that they only found this data “two weeks ago” — that means it got them so hot and bothered that they immediately called for a press conference.
(Actually, if we take him literally, this revelation was of such import that they called the press conference three days before they learned about it, since the announcement was on July 1st. I’ll allow him some leeway there.)
In my more empathetic moments, this sort of rabid enthusiasm on Zullo’s part, coupled with his charming story during the presser about how it took Corsi 16 hours to break him, makes me think that perhaps he really isn’t as much complicit as he is a gullible dupe of the first water.
“Uh, doesn’t this say ‘1968’, Jerry?”
“Did I say you could touch that?! Give it here! It says ‘1961.’ Remember, I’ll worry about the details. You can go back to your Obama dartboard.”
“Well, uh… OK, Jerry.”
You need to learn which posters to ignore for which topic. Scientist is one to ignore when we are delving into the birth certificate arcanery. I’ve lost track of what your concern is. Can you restate it fresh in detail?
It would, if you were coding the same thing throughout. But you aren’t, you’re coding different types of things. So, in this example, 9 for the race of the child means other non-white. So, why would you even have an option of other non-white under occupation? Yet, it is faster and more accurate if the data entry person only has to enter a single digit. So, you would have a menu of 1-9 for the race means caucasian, Hawaiian, etc on through other non-white. Where as 1-9 for the occupation field would mean banker, baker, on through to say student. The reason you see the pencil marks is that before entering the data, someone would go through the certificate and mark it with the correct codes for each field so that the data entry person would not be cross-referencing with the options while also trying to enter it. Much more efficient and accurate way of doing things.
“Ray has gone bye-bye, Egon.”
I consider myself a casual commenter and find it very easy to do so. From what I’ve observed, Charo, you like to worry a bone, and that gets in the way of casual participation.
I agree, with enormous emphasis on the arcane.
I agree wholeheartedly, John. I find I need to have the details. I am a huge skeptic. If I want to confidently answer questions, I need to understand the process myself.
For example, knowing how the race of the child is decided is critical to understanding the coding. Seeing the reports that the data generates is also critical to the coding. It’s all part of the procedures. It IS possible to reverse-engineer the process from the inputs and outputs. This thread is the best place on the web for hashing out those details, if we can filter out the inevitable noise.
Thanks, Doc!!
You actually have 13 available values for a 1 character non-alpha field. 0-9, +, -.
On this point, if Hawaii is not part of a grand conspiracy, then they would, of course, not verify a forgery. It really is that simple. And if Hawaii were part of a grand conspiracy, they would probably have the 1961 codes somewhere in their archives or they could reconstruct them by looking through a good selection of 1961 birth certificates (all of which are in their custody) and seeing how various answers were coded.
There is no way from document analysis to convince a conspiracy theorist that there isn’t a conspiracy. The truly convincing argument to me (besides that I don’t generally believe in conspiracies) is that the probability of a birth in Hawaii is so likely and birth anywhere else is so unlikely that there is no reason for a conspiracy, since the simple truth supports the President.
Uh, 12?
Was there such a thing as an “alpha” field in 1961? EBCDIC was not invented until 1964.
Actually, if necessary, you’d go ahead and make it an alpha-numeric field if you needed more options and give yourself 36 options (0-9,A-Z), I stay away from special characters since they would require an extra keystroke for the shift key. Always want speed and accuracy when coding for data entry.
OK, found the FM to R. It seemed a little crazy that someone wouldn’t have come up with alphanumeric data representations for punched cards by then, but I didn’t turn up anything that described it until just now.
This is a cool little booklet from 1961(!): IBM Punched Card Data Processing Principles
I agree with part of what you said.
A document falsely attesting to Obama’s birth in Honolulu (assuming he was born elsewhere) would require complicity of somebody with access, by whatever means to the Hawaii Department of Health vital records.
Given the degree of attestation from Hawaii officials of both parties that Obama’s birth in Honolulu is genuine, such a scenario seems very unlikely.
But I, of course, am from the Show-Me State.
Now here’s the part I completely disagree with you about. Supposing that such a document were to be produced, by Hawaii State officials, using all of the official Hawaii equipment, etc., but deliberately and falsely attesting to a birth in their state which did not in fact take place, I would absolutely characterize that as a forgery. And I think well in excess 95% of Americans would as well — particularly if it were presented in the format of being a theoretical question, people’s own political interests were removed, etc.
Here’s the difference between the Treasury Department manufacturing a $100 and the Hawaii Department of Health manufacturing a birth certificate based on events which did not take place.
The $100 represents the full faith and credit of the United States government to honor that amount of value in the economic system. It is in fact virtually indistinguishable from all other legitimate $100 bills. I say “virtually indistinguishable” because it does carry a unique serial number.
One that in practice is never used for anything, except a bit of anti-counterfeiting measures. It frankly doesn’t matter what the serial number on your $100 bill is, as long as it was placed there by the Treasury.
A birth certificate is wholly different. A birth certificate is an official statement of fact. Is says that — to the true and honest knowledge and belief of the Hawaii government, based upon their due diligence in requiring solemnly presented statements by appropriate other authorities — including the delivering physician or other birth attendant — all of whom also provide evidence under penalty of law that their testimony is true — that the birth event of the person described did in fact happen in the place and in the manner described.
Those are the requirements of the law, and Hawaii officials are bound to them. If a Hawaii official certifies a birth which did not happen in Honolulu as having happened in Honolulu, that is a very serious breach of their office. And yes, such a document would be well described as a “forgery” — in this case, one perpetrated by a government official operating outside of his authority and outside of Hawaii and US law.
Finally, yes: You are correct. The scenario of Stanley Ann Dunham Obama having flown to Kenya to have her child alone in a foreign country IS — once you understand what that would have entailed — ludicrously ridiculous. And yes, I did write a satirical piece — the only one I think I’ve written on Obama matters, by the way — lampooning that scenario.
And I think the thing I enjoyed the most about writing that piece was creating a few ads. 🙂
I may matter to some degree. There are currency collectors who will pay a premium for special numbers. A really low number, a repeating sequence, or “radar notes” (like 12655621) do matter in some cases.
The Treasury does sell special batches of bills from their normal print runs. I remember seeing they had withheld a run of $2 bills that had the sequence “888XXXXX” (at least several consecutive 8s) for special sale (singles and uncut sheets of various sizes) in souvenir display folders. They were marketing these towards a Chinese-American customer base for which the number 8 is auspicious. Now they might have an incentive to print the same numbers repeatedly, although I suspect they don’t.
I agree that if they were part of a grand conspiracy, there is at least a good chance someone would know or could decipher those codes.
On the other hand, these are codes from 50 years ago. Do you keep technical notes from 50 years ago lying around your office?
Bear in mind that we have a total of two to three entirely different functions here, as well.
We have the people whose job it is to work with birth certificate records, day in and day out. Actually, these days, such people probably don’t even access physical records. Most of them may not even have access to the old physical records any more.
So we may well have a different type of staffer, in charge of maintaining old, archived physical documents.
Doc can fill us in on this, but I don’t think either of these are the same people who maintain aggregate statistical information.
The people who maintain archives of aggregrate statistical information — they might know what those codes mean. But it seems to me that they are very unlikely to have access to the physical records.
And the people who actually have physical access — not so likely to understand those codes. Administrative types. File this. Go look for that. If you start talking about statistical computer record coding specifications to some of these folks, I suspect that you might get a very authentic deer-in-the-headlights look.
So how could the gap between those personnel be breached? It would take someone with a lot of authority, and even then it could arouse some real suspicion. Yes, I know you’re my supervisor, but why exactly are you invading my turf?
Now mind you, all of this theoretical hanky-panky must be supposed to have happened on a Republican watch.
We should also remember that the sum total of evidence for such a thing having happened — invalid and sometimes entirely idiotic birther claims notwithstanding — is entirely zero. We are in the realm of theoretical speculation here. We’re pretty much in the realm of the CIA having seen, through their time-travel experiments, that Obama was going to be President one day, and having approached him when he was a college student and advised him of the fact.
And while it’s not as implausible as the CIA/ time travel claims, or the teleportation to Mars as a teenager stories, it’s still well beyond the realm of the plausible. Republicans walked a tightrope of high risk to forge a birth certificate for their Presidential opponent of the opposite party? Give me a break.
No. All the evidence is consistent, in the same direction. Whatever you may think of him as a President, I see no sign the guy was born anywhere other than Hawaii.
I am always open to changing my mind. I will let you know if I do.
Small world! Me too!
Keep in mind that I was 11 years old in 1961, so my knowledge of office practice in that era is limited.
I presume coding (the pencil marks) were done by the same people that handle the paper certificates on an ongoing basis. Again, I presume the codes were punched on cards and any statistical work was done on the cards.
Based on responses I have received from the Hawaii Department of Health, they don’t have anything on old office practices and documentation.
That said, however, I think anyone with a stack of Hawaiian original birth certificates could figure out the codes fairly simply.
Nothing in your comment is comprehensible, except the intent to be insulting.
Not only do they need to insert a certificate into the bound volume, they have to insert a serially numbered certificate, correct as to the month of issue without causing a problem with the certificate that was removed. Further they have to get it into the index and into the 1961 newspapers.
And blank makes 13. My use of the term wasn’t meant to be technical, more of a description. Not an alpha character. Do + and – count as numerical characters?
Why, thank you. I take deep pride in all of those. My cat and my dog also thank you.
Actually, I think this is before alphabetical keypunches. The cards only have numeric (0-9, +,-, blank). Any field requiring more than 13 gets 2 bits. (I haven’t looked at the IBM link yet, too close to bedtime. Nightmares may ensue.)
Never used a keypunch machine, have you?
The IBM 026 punch is most likely what was in use in Hawaii in 1961 (It was what the CDC used until the 1970’s.) It didn’t have a numeric keypad, so you either had to press the NUM shift key for a number, or you programmed the shift into the drum card, in which case you had to hit the ALPH key to make it alphabetic.
Please folks, if you don’t know what you’re talking about, sit on your hands.
Sure. They used BCD.
The IBM 024 and 026 were released in 1949, and they had an alphabetic keyboard.
The second quote “In 1965, as in years prior to 1964…” has to be referring to the parents’ race as there is no place on a BC for the race of the child to be entered as “oriental’ or “yellow”. Entries like that could only occur on the parents’ race field.
Doh. I had each obstacle dealt with until you had to go and mention the 1961 newspapers. Now I’ll never be able to claim the Birther King prize. All I’m left with are the Jack-in-the-Box crumbs Jerome Corsi leaves on his plate. I am McTrumped.
D@m^ you, 1961!
1961. “Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch…”
John, I think you are confusing the concept of forgery with fraud.
As I understand it, Scientist is saying that the Hawaii Department of Health cannot possibly forge a document that it issues — because by definition it is authorized to issue the documents. It could, in theory, issue a fraudulent document — that is, let’s say hypothetically someone bribes a DOH employee to enter entirely fake information into the database and then use that to generate & issue a COLB. That would be fraud, not forgery.
Here’s a simple analogy: If I steal your checkbook, write a check to myself for $50, and sign your name to it — that check and the signature is forged. On the other hand, if at a time when you have only $200 in your account, you write out a check for $5000, knowing full well that it won’t be honored by your bank — that check is fraudulent. But it isn’t forged, because you have authority to write and sign your own checks.
I think it comes into play in the birther scenario because you cannot prove fraud through document analysis. If Hawaii indeed issued the COLB & the LFBC, then looking for layers or smiley faces or debating the coding system is irrelevant — if in fact there is some sort of error or anomaly in production or printing, that does not in any way undermine the validity of the document.
On the other hand, fraud would be proven by investigating the facts behind the document production. Given that we know from contemporaneous published birth announcements that a birth record was in fact created for Barack Obama in Hawaii in August of 1961, then any such “fraud” must go back to that time frame. The only way to prove fraud is to come up with affirmative evidence that shows something other than what was reflected in the birth announcements & birth certificate.
Such an ignoramus… My goodness sakes, ignorant about how these systems work and still willing to blindly follow any authority that confirms his biases. A true ‘conservative brain’ at work.
Well, I admit, that particular bizarre example most definitely made me laugh…a lot! Much better than yawning… 😉
You’re probably quite right. For most folks, though, I’m not sure the technical distinction is really that important.
The bottom line is: Somethin’ that ain’t kosher.
AGREED! Well said!!
Actually, the distinction *IS* quite important in reality.
Something can seem “not kosher”, yet still be technically legal (regardless of whether it is either an ethical action or good policy). Something can seem “not kosher” and even be potentially illegal, yet still be NOT actionable, because the threshold ability to PROVE intent is simply not there…
So yeah, “not kosher” is way too over-simplistic of a meaningful critera here at all. A lot of what can legitimately be found to fall under “not kosher” would simply result in being something that nothing needs to be (or possibly even can be) done about to change it, regardless of how cr@ppy that result seems or how much people don’t particularly like it…
You are a good man, John Woodman!
To a certain extent, I would certainly agree.
However, that said, I’m not sure it would be entirely transparently easy without the actual codes. Here’s why:
“Hmm… let’s see. All the 1’s say Caucasian. I’ve got a few 2’s that say Negro, and a few 3’s that say Indian. Chinese 4’s, a few Japanese 5’s, Filipino 8’s. No 6’s or 7’s at all. And for 9, I’ve got some Fijians, a couple Samoans, and a Maori.”
Do you see a possible pitfall? Without a key, how does one know whether “2” means Negro or black? And how does one know (for example) whether “9” means “other nonwhite” or possibly “Pacific Islander?”
So while the fact that the code is correct (Other nonwhite) may not be as authenticating as I might have originally supposed, it seems to me that it does still have some additional authenticating value.
Thank you.
It’s just too bad there’s not that much demand for good men anymore. 😉
Second.
I think first we should figure out how uniform the coding
was over the different US-states and whether Hawaii
codes were derived from federal codes at all.
That should be not so difficult ?!
Compare with 1961 BCs from CA,NY , how they were coded.
I noticed that the Hawaiian BC looks much different from the
standard one shown in the 1961 national natality statistics report
and then the records were microfilmed and sent to the fed-stats
and they probably still have the records
———————-
quote:
Not only do they need to insert a certificate into the bound volume, they have to insert a serially numbered certificate, correct as to the month of issue without causing a problem with the certificate that was removed. Further they have to get it into the index and into the 1961 newspapers.
This is what I make of it: 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
Since you ask, this is what it is
You leave Mickey out of this. He may have been a Damn Yankee, but he was a childhood hero.
Not up there with Willy Mays or Al Kaline, but a hero none the less.
And he was never traded.
They are always in demand, but far too often overlooked. Best of luck on being properly “discovered”.
That was good! I had to reread Misha’s comment, the “mantles” didn’t resonate the first time.
No it wouldn’t. Two unrelated data items would have their own unrelated coding sets. The requirements for the two data items are completely different. Restricting code sets to numbers made certain programming tasks simpler in the programming languages in use at the time (Assembler mostly, probably, FORTRAN and COBOL were just beginning to gain traction, RPG way have been used), and keeping them to one column made sorting easier. But if the needed to use letters or multiple columns, then they needed to use letters or multiple columns.
It is likely that a business type field would require many more than 10 possibilities. Why would 9 be chosen as unstated instead of ‘Z’ or if there were more than 38 possibilities (0-9, +, -, A-Z, they could use a few other special characters without too much keypunching difficulty too) they may have used two columns and then ’99’ would be a more likely possibility.
You are making assumptions that are entirely unwarranted. There is just no reason on earth why unrelated data items should use the same codes for unstated. The most overriding concept when defining coding sets was to increase speed and reduce the possibility of error at the keypunch. And every card that was punched, was verified, so it was keyed twice, at least.
That is not to say that the number 9 could not have been used to indicate “not stated” in the business field. But if that were so, it would not be because they were using it as a universal answer, it would have been merely coincidence. The fact that the business clearly was stated argues strongly against that. The overwhelmingly likely answer is that ‘9’ means ‘Student’ in that field.
FIFY
And blank makes 13?
Before EBCDIC was BCD and ASCII.
BCD = Binary Coded Decimal.
ASCII = American Standard Code for Information Interchange.
EBCDIC = Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code
Multiple punches in a column encoded other characters. When you think about it was a 12 bit coding scheme. BCD and ASCII are 7 bits; EBCIDIC is 8 bits. We didn’t truly get beyond 8 bit characters until the general acceptance of Unicode in the late 90’s and we still aren’t really free of it.
The numeric keypad was an optional extra for both the 026 and the 029. The my school in Tucson had an 026 without a numeric pad in 1968, but the school district student ‘Computer Lab’ had one with a numeric keypad.
The U of A Computer Center had go to 029’s for the most part by 1970, but there were a few 026’s scattered around campus. I am pretty sure there were a couple with numeric pads in the Engineering Satellite CC. By ’72 the UA was getting Univac ( I think ) punches and they were just too foreign to my 026/029 habits. Then when the got the DEC System 10, they just about disappeared all the keypunches altogether.
Having said all that from personal memory, I cannot find any external evidence to support me. It is possible that the numeric keypads were third party add-ons. I did find that 029’s were released in 1964 so they could not have been used for Obama’s data in 1961.
http://www.wnd.com/2011/09/342937/
race of father : 3
business : 3
race of mother : 3
two Indian parents in Honolulu in Aug.1961 and WND found him ?
maybe 3 is a different code in Hawaii in 1961 ?!?
Okay, I’ve got to bring out what you are missing. The information about the father is what is being alleged as false (by some). As in it was missing. As in her husband was a cad and didn’t show up for the birth (the fact that he was a cad is pretty much confirmed now) so he was left off? Maybe it was put in later? Who knows? None of this has to do with eligibility and in the past, the owner of the site would not allow that discussion because he considered it a smear. It does have to do with vetting. Vetting is ugly business. You claimed in the past to be for it. Didn’t the whole issue begin with wanting to know the actual name of Obama? How else could you know that except by the birth certificate? Having to show a birth certificate was not required of any other President! Shameful you say? A lot of things never used to be required for people in general. They are now. Just make everything consistent. There was a time when people here said he had to have shown his birth certificate to an official for the election. We know now that never happened, but I remember clearly being hammered for the idea that there was no proof that Obama showed his birth certificate to any official for the election process. Just hammered left and right. Anyhoo…
To whoever above who said he didn’t even remember my issue, well it started out as
1) maybe the Code manual for 1961 does have 9 as unstated- we can only speculate which is what has been going on endlessly. A copy of the manual will show the facts. I am not claiming that I am right.
2) There would have had to have been a Code for not stated, IMO. I think the owner of the site presumes an x was used if the father was not stated. We don’t know that for certain. I do know that another website has the footnote of a page that mentions the use of unstated. I can’t cut and paste it. It states something to the effect that in “the annual volume” this “not stated” category is not shown to save space, but discusses that subtraction of the numbers can lead you the unstated number.
John: The $100 bill may not have been the best analogy. Clearly, Hawaii is not authorized to create birth certificates out of whole cloth (though it probably would be fraud, not forgery). But fundamentally, the entire matter comes down to this: either there is an enormous, all-encompasing conspiracy (which is the subject here) or there isn’t.
The CCP seems to be implying that someone in the White House basement or the Obama campaign headquarters threw together a computer document. But we know that Hawaii has verified every single piece of information on the document (see their letter to Arizona Sec of State Bennett). That means either the information on the document IS correct or Hawaii is in on the conspiracy.
So. let’s look at those 2 scenarios: If the information is correct, why fabricate a birth certificate rather than simply ordering one? That is simply ludicrous. If the information is incorrect, but Hawaii is part of a mammoth conspiracy, then why wouldn’t Hawaii, who would have the materials and knowledge to do so produce the phony document or at least check it out before it was released to make sure it was an impeccable fake?
As for the coding tables, I don’t know whether the DOH would have kept ones from 1961, but they would know that they existed. Doc got one, so, of course, they could get one too. If there was a huge conspiracy, the President would ensure that HHS provided everything that Hawaii would need, wouldn’t he? You see, John, once you go down the rabbit hole, anything is possible, which is why I stay above ground.
And again, I keep coming back to the simple normality of a mother who lives in Hawaii giving birth there and the ludicrousness of the counter-theories. On the other hand, theories that have Mitt Romney born in Canada are much more tenable. After all, it was only a few minutes away, there were minimal formalities to cross the border in that era, Canada has and had first-rate medical facilities (unlike Kenya) and the Romney family owned a house there and still does. Maybe, in the interests of fairness, you would like to analyze Mitt’s certifiicate?
O/T here but scientist, I would have a hard time believing you would not love this aspect of Arpaio:
Sheriff Joe is best known for his tough stand against illegal immigrants, but he is also tough on those who abuse and neglect animals. Several years ago, Sheriff Joe created the A.C.E. (Animal Cruelty Enforcement) Posse and recently created the M.P.C.A. (Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) Posse.
The M.P.C.A. “will focus on promoting adoptions for the animals still in his care and providing education and resources for the lucky animals that have found new, loving homes, aiding cruelty investigators, checking on pet shops and puppy mills.”
…
The shelter is located at First Avenue and Madison Street in Phoenix, Arizona. This is the location of a jail that was closed to human inmates in 1999 because of plumbing issues, but makes a perfect home for abused and neglected animals. The shelter is air-conditioned and the cells have been reconditioned to be comfortable for the animals who live there. Detention officers and female inmates care for the animals.
More @ http://www.examiner.com/article/sheriff-joe-arpaio-s-mash-unit-is-the-new-home-to-a-shih-tzu
Romneyconspiracy.com is available. I would think .com would be the natural choice, but .org is available, too.
Gotta put more:
One current resident of the M.A.S.H. Unit is a shih tzu who arrived at the groomer on a 110+ degree day in August in the trunk of a car. The groomer was worried about the dog, who, according to the police report, was soaking wet and dehydrated. The groomer took the shih tzu to a nearby vet. The vet’s report states that the dog had a 103 degree temperature, distressed breathing, and was suffering heat stress and dehydration. On January 18, 2011, Katie Truong was arrested by Maricopa County Sheriff’s Animal Cruelty detectives, and the shih tzu is being held as evidence against her.
John, Mittconspiracy.com might be appropriate, as well, though you probably would get a number of baseball enthusiast trolls. That could be a good thing.
I’m trying to figure why that would indicate fraud. Suppose he wasn’t there at the birth, but Ms Dunham supplied his information. They were married, after all. What do the wives/partners of those serving in Afghanistan do if they give birth? I’m sure they provide the information for the father. I don’t know if Obama Sr said African, or Ms Dunham said African or they refused to say and someone saw a birthplace in Africa and decided to put African. None of those indicate fraud (or argue against it).
I’m not sure I ever said such a thing, but. there is vetting and there is vetting. If we must know everything about a President, does that include them posting their conjugal relations on YouTube so people can approve or disapprove of their choice of positions? Presidential paternal cadiness (is that a word) really ought not to be a disqualifier, I hope. Just in recent times, you would have lost Reagan, Clinton, Ford and possibly Kennedy on those grounds. Anyway, Obama-unfortunately and unnecessarily in my opinion, since the “controversy” over his name was confined to a few web sites and I’ll bet 99% of the voters never even heard about the release of the COLB in June 2008-released his birth certificate, so it may be that will now be a requirement for all in the future. Certainly Romney decided to release that piece of detritus b.c, with “VOID” marked right on it.
There is one thing that all serious candidates in the last 40 years have released, though-10 years or so of tax returns. Of course, no law requires it, but it’s become standard operating procedure. And I can see the value in that. For all the talk of natural born citizen and allegiance, in my experience, most people are far more influenced by their bank accounts than by what passport their dad held or what patch of soil they spent the first few days of life on. So, candidates’ financial interests are of indisputable importance.
I want to say more on this, but I have to watch what I say on this site due to retribution. I’ll just leave it at that (and I don’t mean comments by others who sometimes go over the top). Maybe a manual will pop up to explain the 9 codes.
Vetting of the narrative someone has told about his/her life, not conjugal stuff, is more to the point. As for the NBC issue, there are people here, Obots if you will, who believe that being a NBC is the law, and the law needs followed. They believe it was in the case of Obama.
So, do you think Sheriff Joe would arrest Romney if he drives through Arizona with a dog on the roof?
Been nice…
So Arpaio enforces animal cruelty laws, just as every other law enforcement organnization in the country does. New York has some of the toughest animal cruelty laws around and our local police and State Police bust people almost every single day. And they do all that without feeling a need to birf.
I am a casual reader who can contribute nothing to the technical discussion about coding, but I do have some expertise relating to the use of “African” as the identifier for Obama (Sr.)’s race. I was a graduate student and researcher at the universities in Uganda (Makerere) and Nairobi in the during the period 1965-68. My research focused onI interviewing the Kenyan students who had participated in the 1959 Mboya Airlift. These would have been contemporaries of Obama Sr.
I can say with complete confidence that Obama Sr. would have identified his race as “African” As Doc C and others have noted, “African” was the commonly used race identifier that British colonial officials would have assigned and that would have been applied to Obama (Sr.) throughout his education in primary and secondary school. Moreover, Obama (Sr.) and his contemporaries embraced that definition of race as a positive cultural and political identification, in contrast to some tribal identifican such as Luo or Kikuyu. So if Obama (Sr.) or any of the Kenyan students who came to the United States to study was asked for the identify of their race, the answer would have been a proud “African.” They would never have answered “Negro” because that was not an identifier they had grown up with, nor was it an identifier that would resonate with their political and cultural aspirations.
When I first saw the long form birth certifate identified Obama (Sr.)’s race as “African”, it added verification that it was genuine. I read much of the birthers that the use of “African” proved that the document was a forgery because the correct identifier would have been “Negro”. They were completely wrong about how Obama (Sr.) would have responded to the question. Kenyans studying in the South would have also answered with “African” but it is likely that officials would have entered “Negro” rather than using the self-identifier of “African”, but it seems that was not the case in Hawaii.
I had many joking discussions with my African friends about my racial identify in Uganda and Kenya. I insisted that I was not “European”, because I was “American”. They said I was a “European” of the “American” tribe. I would never self-describe as “European”, but I had no control over the assignment of “European” as my race by officials. Kenyan students would also have had to live with the coding that Amercian officials applied.
None of the “racial” categories that appeared on the 1962 Kenyan census form are to be found on the 1961 or 1968 American racial codes that Doc C has shown. (Well, the term “Indian” appears on the Kenyan and American lists, but that term applies to totally different groups, perpetuating the confusion that goes back to Columbus.) Racial categories are specific to political context, and there are always problems in translating racial identify from one context to another. In the Hawaiian context, they allowed “African” to be used on the birth certificate, but that pushed the identification problem to the coding-for-statistical-collection exercise. Which was done appropriately, as the discussion on this thread has established—the protests of birthers not withstanding.
Birthers also argued that Obama (Sr.)’s place of birth shown on the LFBC as “Kenya, East Africa” was evidence of a forgery. To me, the identifier “Kenya, East Africa” confirmed the authenticity of the document. In the late 50’s and early 60’s, there were many government services that were East Africa wide, such as a common morket, currency, railroad, and nascent university system. It was not at all certain that the political entity that would become independent from Britain was Kenya. In 1961 Obama (Sr,) was hedging his bets as to what entity would eventually become the state in which he would become a leader. From what I have read, his inclination was for a larger political unit, but his inclination was not shared by all of the Kenyan students who came to the U.S., and they may have only said they came from Kenya.
Those were very different times.
Or they just needed Plan 9 from Outer Space.
Thank you for taking the time to share what you know from personal experience of the time.
You need not speculate. Ann Dunham signed the certificate and she is the one who attested to the information on it. The father’s race is supposed to be what the father considers himself to be. Whether she said “African” on behalf of Sr. or Obama Sr. said “African” himself, it was Dunham who filled out the form and signed it. It wasn’t filled in later.
“3” is the correct code for Indian, both in 1961 and 1968. It’s in the manual for both years.
Absolutely. It does not matter who said “African”, whether it was Obama Sr or Ms Dunham based on her knowledge of how he normally described himself. charo seems to believe it is monumentally important, but doesn’t say why. Nor is African at all odd for someone from Africa, any more than Chinese would be odd for someone from China or Japanese for someone from Japan.
In my long post above, I tried to make the point that we should expect Obama (Sr.) to use “African” as his racial identifier, and we would need to find some explantion if some other identifier appeared on the birth certificate. He must have communicated this information to his wife in such a convincing fashion that she supplied it when filling out the form.
natality, 1961, table 2-4 , page 49 , footnotes:
1) 782 = other races, Alaska, male
Includes 126 births to Aleuts and 612 births to Eskimos.
(In addition, there were 38 births to Aleuts and Eskimos residing
in other States.)
2) 684 = other races, Alaska, female
Included 132 births to Aleuts and 514 births to Eskimos.
(In addition, there vere 38 births to Aleuts and Eskimos residing
in other States.)
3) 3,762 = other races, Hawaii, male
Includes 2,498 births to Hawaiians and Part-Hawaiians.
(In addition, there were 336 births to Hawaiians and Part-Hawaiians
residing in other States.)
4) 3,574 = other races, Hawaii, female
Includes 2,424 births to Hawaiians and Part-Hawaiians.
(In addition, there were 336 births to Hawaiians and Part-Hawaiians
residing in other States.)
5) Minnesota
An eatimated 100 births for this State were erraneously
classified as white instead of Indian.
——————————–
This is based on a 50% sample
Hawaiians and Part-Hawaiians are lumped into the same category here,
although the manual has them separated.
However, death certificates for 1961 which have the same 11 categories
show zero entries for Hawaiian – apparently they were all collected
under Part-Hawaiian.
We still have no Filipino births reported in some 1961 statistics ?
Indeed.
I meant, this were very rare, unlikely
Mr. Woodman, I’m sorry to be so late reading your satirical piece. I could have helped you create some wild narrative during Ann’s stay in Kenya, based on my trip from Kampala to Mombasa in 1965 and my experience with hospitals during that period.
That would’ve been fun! 😉
The problem is, I asked a simple question, and no one even tries to answer. Some people do offer insults, though. This means you guys dont know.
The 9’s mean (1961) “other, non white” the heading for that column in the manual is : “race of child”
the two questions on the BC are : “race of father” for which the answer is other non white.
the second question, business of father, is answered the same way- “other non white”.
So- how did this happen? Are you trying to say that the second 9 does not mean “other nonwhite” and if you are, then explain this.
I’m trying to break the question down so you guys can understand it and thus give it a shot-
Do you remember the Sherlock Holmes story where the dog is outside and should have been barking but wasn’t? Well, this is what we seem to have here…Its not my fault no one here can understand my statements. If you went to school in Russia like I did then maybe you would understand. It is well know how weak the American educational system has become.
Since you travelled from the US to East Africa in the 1960s, it would be interesting to hear how many flights it took and how long and what the airfare was. As far as I know, there are no direct flights from the US to Kenya even today and getting there requires going through Europe or South Africa or the Middle East.
Look- I began this in a friendly manner. All i got back was false accusations, anger, stupid insults, etc. If you cannot conduct yourselves here in a civilized rational manner, then you probably don’t belong here. If, now, I seem harsh, it is because of the solid wall of buffoonery and libel here that I encounter.
Any reasonable person should be able to see that if the second question and the second 9 is totally screwed up, then this is a defective document.
One of my passports contains a single error, one misspelled word. just one letter off…Because of this one minor error, it is considered to be invalid. Same goes for the BC, at minimum
So would that make Romney’s birth certificate invalid?
http://static.reuters.com/resources/media/editorial/20120529/RomneyBirthCertificate.pdf
It lists her mother’s age as 36, when there is documentary evidence that she was 38 at the time of his birth. Her birthdate was Nov 8, 1908. Her son was born March 17, 1947. You do the math.
Yep, I messed up; sorry. I even thought of that as I was writing, but I think I discounted it because “blank” hadn’t been mentioned in any of the codes sets, that I recall.
ASCII wasn’t released until 1963. A year before EBCDIC, but still after the time in question.
But you couldn’t use the full 12 bits, for fear of creating “lace cards.” I’m going to guess that IBM explicitly designed EBCDIC to avoid more than a few (3?) punches per column, which in turn is what creates its signature funkiness.
Never thought about that before; I’ll have to cut IBM a little slack there. They still don’t get a pass for Token Ring.
…and going back to our earlier conversation: don’t forget CDC display code! Originally 6 bits, so you could pack 10 characters into a 60-bit word, but gee, sorry, no lowercase letters. Eventually extended to 12 bits (well, really 7 bits encoded in 6 or 12 bits — but you probably know the story), giving you full-metal ASCII.
Politely. Good sirrah, prithee that you heed our words. The code set of which you speak for “business of father” is most unlikely to be that which is used for “race of father”, as there are very few businesses outside of the conveyance of comestibles for which, I might proffer as an example, “Indian” would be a rational answer.
Marry, it must be considered as a possibility, that a different code set would be used for this field. The good Doctor Conspiracy, proprietor of this estimable site, has already laid out before us examples of different code sets that would be used for different fields.
I hope this finds you in good health.
Yrs truly,
lw
Romney’s is invalid. It says “VOID” right on it. The birthers have conveniently ignored this, so i will ask Dave directly,
Dave: Is Romney’s certificate valid? You, a rank newbie who showed up here a few days ago believe you are owed answers. I have been here for years so that should be doubly true for me. So please answer.
Good thing coffee is not at hand nor near mouth.
Plus, it has VOID written all over it.
Doesn’t matter – he’s white, even though he comes from polygamists, with a pattern of domestic violence.
Just like Glenn Beck, also a Mormon, who raped and murdered a girl.
Bravo!!
Mitt’s thing is more rape and murder of companies.
My satirical piece was inspired by finding two items of information:
1) information on the enormous cost of such a flight in 1961 — around 6 months’ salary even for an American, so the level of sponsorship an African had to have from the West even to get out of the country was typically VERY large, and
2) the flight schedules for BOAC, the precursor to British Airways, which would almost certainly have been the airline taken, and which is known to have been used by Obama Sr.
I didn’t know at the time I started my satirical piece that Kogelo is about 200 miles of apparently still dirt road away from Mombasa, and takes 6 hours to travel, even if you have your own car — which few African villagers do — even TODAY.
In any event, it would definitely be interesting to hear of PERSONAL experience of making this trip.
the numbers have different meanings for different contexts. If the answer to question 1 who is our president is b. President Obama. And the answer to question 10 is where was he born b. Hawaii does the answer b mean that he was born in President Obama?
Every entry has a ‘decoding table’
This is not rocket science.
Heh. Thanks for that!
Why would a code 9 have to remain static between fields as “other non-white” while a code 1 (just from a quick glance at the Nordyke and Obama BCs) would be able to magically alternate between “male”, “caucasian”, “private practice”, or “yes”?
As Pete Hogwallop might say…that don’t make no sense!
OK, try this. The whole reason for using numbers is so you can have different values for different questions. It makes no sense to have numbers always mean the same thing if the answers don’t.
These were Profession categories from the US 1960 Census categories. I added numbers to them, added none, not stated, and other. We don’t know what the Hawaiian codes really were, this is just to illustrate the point. I’ll call these the codes for Year W4.
0 — None (Retired, Housewife)
1 — Professional, Technical, and Kindred Workers
2 — Managers, Officials, and Proprietors, including Farm
3 — Clerical and Kindred Workers
4 — Sales Workers
5 — Craftsman, Foremen, and Kindred Workers
6 — Operatives and Kindred Workers [W4 — generally machine operators]
7 — Service Workers
8 — Laborers
9 — Other not listed
x — Not Reported
Industry Classification
1 — Agriculture
2 — Mining
3 — Manufacturing, Durable Goods
4 — Manufacturing, Non-durable goods
5 — Transportation, Communication, Other Public Utilities
6 — Wholesale and Retail Trade
7 — Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate
8 — Services: Business, Personal, Entertainment, Recreation, Professional
9 — Public Administration
x — Not Reported
Month of birth: (from the Tape file layout)
1 — January
2 — February
3 — March
4 — April
5 — May
6 — June
7 — July
8 — August
9 — September
0 — October
X — November
V — December
So looking at these 4 fields, 9 doesn’t mean “other”, or “not stated”, or November, or “Other Nonwhite.” You must have a field number and a year to know what the number means.
“3” has no meaning. Field 5A Month 1961 — 3 means March. Field 12a YearW4 — 3 means Clerical. Field 12b YearW4 — 3 means Manufacturing. Field 9 YearW4 — 3 means Indian (since the only way to get race of child = Indian is to have an Indian mother and father, on an indian mother and an unknown father). A 3 in any other field than a race field doesn’t mean “Indian.” Same with any other number.
Does that explain it for you, Dave?
Thanks — I found the natality files from the NBER link. Looking at them now, with my Geek hat on.
I’d love to tell some tales.
You are correct that air travel between the U.S. and Kenya was very expensive back in the early 60’s. That is the reason Tom Mboya organized a charter plane to take Kenyans who had gotten accepted at U.S. colleges/universities and arranged for scholarships/local funding, but still lacked transportation to the U.S. I was lucky to get sponsorship for my flight rather than paying it out of my own pocket.
It is more likely that Ann would have gotten off at Entebbe Airport in Uganda than flying to Nairobi, since it would have been cheaper and the travel distance to Kogelo was about the same. Mama Sarah would not have met her at the airport. She would have delegated that task to a kinsman who would have lived in/near Kampala or Nairobi who was familiar with making arrangements for a visitor.
You are also correct about the difficulty of land travel in the early 60’s, especially to a village in the provinces. You had Ann traveling to Kogelo by bus. . The main roads connecting Kisumu to Nairobi or Kampala were dirt roads. I took a bus on one of the main roads. Masaii spears rattling back and forth in the aisle as the bus dodged pot holes.. A woman handing me a chicken to hold while she got out something or other. Memorable stuff. I doubt that a bus would have run to Kogelo back in 1961. If not, it would have required riding a bicycle, arranging for a high clearance vehicle like a Landrover, or walking.
There would have been a huge party for Ann when she arrived in Kogelo. A two or three day blast. The kith and kin would have gathered for the event. At least a goat and more likely a cow would have been slaughtered. Much beer (both local and bottled). Music and dancing. (Based on my reception by the family of a Kenyan student I had arranged to study in the U.S. It was a also in the western part of Kenya, about as far off the main road as Kogelo.)
The birther lore has Ann traveling to Mombasa to catch a boat back home because the airlines wouldn’t let her get on the plane in her advanced pregnant condition. That’s about 500 miles, a two day trip by car. Elephants on the road in Tsavo. Dust. The birthers have Mama Sarah present when Ann gave birth, so she must have accompanied Ann. Instead of car, they would have probably taken the East African railroad from Kisumu to Nairobi, and then to Mombasa. Not cheap, and this would have been an added expense. The cost of passage on a ship would also have been unbudgeted (requiring a telegram to Honolulu asking for more money, or asking Moma Sarah’s family to cough up the fare.)
So, according to birther lore, there’s a birth certificate on record at the Coast hospital. They speculate baby dropped out unexpectedly when Ann was taking a dip in the ocean. I hope she was trying to do some snorkeling along the world-class reef with unbelievable marine life. It’s a good thing that Obama (Jr.) came out while she was near a hospital because if she got on the boat, he would have been born at sea. Taking care of a newborn on an ocean voyage? I would have advised her to have the baby in the clinic in Kisumu, or at least stay in Nairobi to use the Aga Khan Hospital. Mulago Hospital in Kampala would also have been a good choice. I hope she never developed malaria like I did
This would have been the trip of a lifetime for a 17 year old. She would have had stories! So would Mama Sarah and family. (Moma Sarah and family would also have had debts to pay for their hospitality.) I had lots of stories to pass on to my family. My sons have heard them all and can tell them as well as I. Strangely, Obama never writes about the stories his mother should have told him. Mama Sara and family never tell stories about the visit from Ann. I can only conclude that something so horrific happened that everyone took an oath never to talk about these events again, and they all kept their word.
This Dave guy is a crack-up!
Who let the commie out from under the bed?!? Quick, catch it!
It is also well-knowN how little regard thinking people have for regurgitated winger liturgy. 😉
American Mzungu,
That is a wonderful and fascinating personal take on what such a trip would have involved, and I feel very enlightened. Thanks for sharing it!
Things I got right:
* Very arduous journey.
* Bus.
* Difficult dirt road.
* Chickens on the bus.
(By the way, the little girl throwing up on the bus in the seat behind her came directly from my own personal experience during a many-hours-long bus journey winding through mountains of *North* Africa, which is a much different world but in some ways similar, back in 1984.)
Things I got wrong:
* Entebbe, not Nairobi.
* Bus probably not going to Kogelo. Hey, I was optimistic.
* No huge party on Ann’s arrival.
* No elephants.
* No train.
* No boat.
* No mention of big debt incurred by Obama’s family.
* No mention of tales told for years by both families.
* A complete and quite unfortunate lack of rattling Masai spears on the bus.
Thanks for the great stories American Mzungu. Personally, when my wife was in the latter stages of pregnancy I couldn’t get her to go 50 miles away for the weekend. I can only imagine the reaction if I had suggested a jaunt to Kenya. The other thing is that in-laws just aren’t that interested in seeing the swollen belly; they want to see the grandkid. So, if you were making a jaunt halfway round the world to visit in-laws, you would (A) do it after the baby was born (kids under 1 year travel free anyway) and (B) travel with their son rather than going by your lonesome. I have certainlly never visited my in-laws without my wife, nor has she visited my folks without me.
The peanut gallery is really boisterous today. But I did get a partial answer, I think- for business of father, the 9 is lifted from another code book, so its correct. Hmm. Now that is something to chew on…
And what is this business about Glen Beck doing those deeds? what is this, explain, it sounds kookoo.
Romney’s BC is messed up too, I bet hes a Vatican assassin.
My daughter-in-law (and son) just had a baby. She was on bed-rest for the last three weeks. She’s a fitness freak.
From all accounts, Stanley Ann was a remarkable woman, but any reasonable scenario of a trip to Kenya in the late stages of pregnancy, giving birth there, and immediately traveling back to Hawaii would require physical and mental–not to mention financial–resources of which legends are made. .
Is there a mother who could refrain from saying, “Son, after everything I went through to give birth to you in Africa….is it too much to ask that you clean up your room?”
John Woodman:
i don’t know if you have heard of BBC historian Peter Firstbrook, read his book “The Obamas” or listened to his c-span interview by Dinesh D’Souza – firstbrook went to kenya and explored 27 generations of President Obama’s Kenyan ancestors
an interesting footnote, most of his family are/were 7th day adventists
the dsouza interview
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/297941-1
You never read about Glenn Beck’s involvement in that heinous crime?!
I’ll say this: the MSM is not doing their job. They are either lazy, or helping Glenn Beck cover up that mess.
They’re not on top of the birth certificate, so I should not be surprised.
Plus, I can’t believe she’d go all the way to Africa and back and not even get the t-shirt.
I completely agree!
I can’t believe she’d go all the way to Africa and back and not even get the t-shirt. [bada-bing]
By most accounts, they probably wouldn’t be that happy about seeing Barack’s new American wife at all.
So far, only CDR has had the cojones to suggest she was sent there, by herself, by her angry parents to punish her for getting pregnant. And that’s one of the best theories they’ve put forth.
No mother that I know…
That’s the Ah’Nee birth certificate 09945.
Yeah, the best story I’ve heard is that they were so ashamed she had a baby with an African that they sent her away. Among the many problems with this theory are: (1) She had already married the African; (2) There is no evidence they were ashamed at all, since they spent a good part of their lives raising that boy; (3) If they would send her anywhere or she would run anywhere, it would have been to Seattle where all her school friends were. Having raised a daughter, I know that when 17 year old girls have a problem with parents, they do NOT turn to a husband or boyfriend’s parents, they turn to their girlfriends, In fact, Seattle was where she went a few months later.
So, which of the 2 guys with “screwed up birth certificates” do you prefer? I sense you are a Ron Paul supporter, but I don’t recall seeing his birth certificate at all. Funny how all the birthers who claim to support him don’t care. Of course, as old as he is, I don’t know that he even has one-they only came into general use in the late 19th century,
She would have brought back a dashiki for her Dad, an ivory bracelet for her Mom–as tokens of appreciation for all the monetary sacrifices they made for her. And an elephant hair bracelet for her African husband; she would have made up symbolism.
Carvings for all the friends.
(I brought back a Tanzanite engagement ring for my wife-to-be.)
Dave, you need to learn to research things — thoroughly — for yourself.
Here ya go. This one’s a freebie.
I am merely pointing out that these codes have a coding table which explains their meaning. Have you looked at the actual 1961 and 1968 document? 9′ means ‘other non-white’ in context of race but has different meanings in other contexts. The context is given by the location in the data file.
It’s so trivially simple. You seem to be confused that ‘9’ always means ‘other non-white’ which is plainly ridiculous.
So while you are trying to educate yourself, you should stop projecting your ignorance onto others.
So explain to us, if in 1961 ‘9’ mean ‘other non-white’ for race (of the child) and in 1964 three codes were removed, 6 and 7 for Aleut and Eskimo (combined with Native Indians) and 10 and 11 were combined (Hawaiian and Partial Hawaiian) and then moved to position 6 while position 7 became ‘other non-white’ and a new code ‘unknown or not stated’ was added with value 9, and this value applied to race of father, mother and child, how come that you continue to believe the Posse who showed an erroneous reference from a 1968 manual, claimed to have the 1961 manual but are unable to present it for inspection and are now pointing fingers to eachother while coming up with a new ‘story’ that they had the codes ‘confirmed’.
Why are they so unable to present their story in a consistent and factual manner?
Does that not worry you?
Then again, who am I kidding here… Truth is of no interest to you now is it?
The ‘9’ does not mean ‘race of child’ but rather a ‘9’ at the file position for ‘race of child’ means ‘other non-white’
What is so hard to understand here? Let me walk you through this using the 1960-1961 nativity tape file document
Let’s first explain the punch card format
So each entry could have 12 punch locations representing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, X and V or remain blank
Tape location 1 has a field size of 1 with possible values 0 or 1
Tape location 2 has a field size of 1 with 12 possible values representing the 12 months where X and V represent November and December
We notice that a 9 means september in the context of month
Now we get to position 32 with has a field size of 1 and 11 possible values representing race of child
1 White
2 Negro
3 Indian
4 Chinese
5 Japanese
6 Aleut
7 Eskimo
8 Filipino
9 Other nonwhite
0 Hawaiian
V Part Hawaiian
It is likely that the remaining value ‘X’ or blank would represent “not stated’ as this is the standard for other not stated examples where all the digits are being used.
Does this help?
Of course, we do not know what ‘9’ did mean since the 1961 data tape has no entries for business etc.
The 1968 ‘detailed natality’ file shows
The 1960 census code book gives the following for race
1950
<blockquote
1 White
2 Negro
3 Indian (American)
4 Japanese
5 Chinese
6 Filipino
7 Other
In the federal codes, there is no “X” in the table because the race of the child is ALWAYS present (it’s derived). For Hawaiian purposes the “X” seems likely since there are “X” values penciled at other points on the form.
The Video says that the penciled codes ALWAYS correspond to values in their faux table. That is not the case. There are “X” values printed on the form that do not appear in the Cold Case Posse code table.
Not only did Glenn Beck rape and murder a girl, but Laura Bush killed a classmate:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/laura.asp
Also, please sign this petition to help stop Glenn Beck’s murderous rampage:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/glenn-beck-kills/
I know you want to set the record straight, and so do I. All Glenn Beck has to do is release his criminal record abstract stamped “Subject has clear record to date,” and this can be over tonight – because this is no laughing matter.
SHOW US YOUR RECORDS BECK!!!
I have no idea how you derived this partial answer from what people here have been saying for days now.
One of you guys did say that the other 9 is derived from some other code book. You guys also say that in the 61 manual, there is a column where 9 is accurate for the first question, and there is another column where the use of a 9 is also accurate,… the one 9 means one thing, while the second 9 means something else. OK.
Is the other column (the occupation one) – where exactly is that in the 1961 code, before or after the race of child section?
I’m not a Ron Paul supporter, since I do not subscribe to Austrian economics and most Libertarianism ( they totally omit the Judeo-interest rate factor, etc.)… I am a disciple of Alexander Dugin and Alain de Benoist.
I hope you are in jest about the Beck stuff, everyone knows he didn’t do those things, that got started by Gilbert Godfrey the comedian or something like that. But its true that Laura Bush did kill a close friend of hers in a bizarre auto accident when she was young, and I think the Bush’s kept a miscarriage or aborted fetus in a jar in their home for a spell…
smh
Dave,
I would encourage you to read the specifications for yourself — carefully.
They are referenced in the article above, and probably in the course of the comments as well.
Go to the original source materials.
Here’s a formula for not being a patsy. For not being a “useful idiot” (again, if you don’t understand the origin of that term, look it up):
1. Be ready to accept truths you don’t like.
2. Be ready to identify people not telling the truth, even if they’re “on your side.”
3. Read everything you can on both sides of an issue.
4. Check the original sources.
5. Test the reasoning. Learn what’s a fallacy, and what isn’t. Become acquainted with straw men, ad hominem attacks, and other common fallacies.
6. Learn to accurately evaluate what is likely and what is not.
7. Test your own beliefs, and be ready to modify them or throw them out the window if you find out they’re not accurate.
8. See Rules #1 and 2.
People who join a side simply because they like the result or think they like the company — not because it’s factually true — end up birthers. They end up being the tools of others, who are feeding them false information for their own purposes.
Now hunt down those specs, and read ’em for yourself! 😉
I said that in addition to direct codes, there are derived codes which are calculated by the computer from the direct data. As to the ‘9’ meaning one thing in context of one data point and another in context of another, is something I already have shown.
‘9’ can mean September for the month
‘9’ can mean ‘other none-white’ for race of the child
‘9; can mean all other places *rural” for population size
‘9’ can refer to ounces of weight at birth
The 1961 manual is linked by Dr C, have you taken a look at it? What part is still confusing you?
There is no such entry in the 1961 and 1968 (iirc) data files that represent occupation. Others have shown how the Census does provide codes for occupation but it is far from clear that the census uses the same codes as the NCHS, especially given that they used different codes for ‘race’ for example.
In the end, you need to have the code book for the data to understand its meaning. Looking at a 1968, pretending that it is a 1961 document and then making claims about the meaning of ‘9’ is somewhat inappropriate, although others may call it misleading. If the CCP cannot produce their own 1961 manual then stronger accusations may be warranted.
So far, the CCP seems to be all over themselves trying to distance themselves from their own follies.
Fascinating… And quite hilarious… Such fumbling is what we have come to expect from those who claim themselves to be birthers. It’s often caused by an innate inability to consider data which conflicts with one’s beliefs.
Woodman and Dr C for example have shown themselves to be able to look at conflicting data, and find appropriate explanations. But the birthers so far have quickly jumped to myths which they later refused to retract.
It’s this kind of shoddy research scientific AND legal which is one of the main reasons the birther movement has been so ineffective.
Yes, that is how research should be done but the problem is that the mind of many is constrained genetically to reject ambiguity and embrace authority. It’s quite a curse, especially if one is not aware of this.
You have to be willing to tolerate a certain amount of uncertainty, until you’re certain.
Unfortunately, being legitimately certain often takes more learning about an issue than most folks are willing to do.
The shortcut is: Find an “authority” you like and trust, and believe whatever he or she says.
The problem with that is there are “authorities” who a) don’t actually know themselves, they’re just posing as if they do; and b) some are actually willing to actively mislead you, and are very skilled at presenting themselves as benevolent, confident “leaders.”
Clue: If someone totally only presents one side of an issue, that’s a red flag.
Clue 2: If you find that someone has told you something that quite definitely turns out not to be true, that’s a definite red flag. If they’ve told you more than one something that you confirm not to be true… well, they’re going to have to have a very good track record from then on to be believed in anything.
In either, or both, of those crimes, do you think Glenn Beck was an accessory after the fact?
A disciple of two neo-fascists. Why am I not surprised?
BRAVO! Well said!
Yeah, those were quite cringe-inducing references for someone to “brag” about…
Talk about people who hold extremely anti-American views…to put it mildly!
Not really. I think you are confusing what actual vetting is with the ugly smear and gossip-mongering business of politics.
Vetting is about qualifications. The trash-politics is simply ugly pettiness.
As Obama was born in HI, his NBC status and therefore eligibility for the office stems from that alone. It makes no difference that his father was a cad or absent from his life. Nor would it matter if his father was never known at all.
Only petty people with ugliness in their own hearts would relish judging and condemning a kid for life circumstances of his parents. One can’t control their own birth and choose the parents they are born to.
Nor is it that unusual for the US to elect a President whose birth father was missing from the child’s life…or had other difficulties of a broken home at a young life. Within the modern era, both Bill Clinton and Gerald Ford instantly come to mind…
So no, those types of attacks and “digging” is NOT vetting at all. It has ZERO to do with either the eligibility or qualifications of someone to be President. Such muck racking is merely poo-flinging smears by immature and petty people. If somene has to pretend to be all “bothered” by some candidate’s childhood circumstances, then they are just looking for excuses to unreasonably dehumanize that candidate. Nothing more.
The seal is in the upper right and upper left corner and there are more in the other cut off corners.
That is a raised and colored seal. Michigan BC’s are actually quite beautiful.
NBC, you are hilarious. You say we need to find or read the code for 1961 to learn more, esp concerning the second question….. uh, well…
Misha, Obama inherited the Commissions act, he re signed the Patriot act, he tortures, and spies on the public, and he signed the NDAA, …in your American style knee jerk reaction to condemn “fascism” you could also be kind enough to include Obama.
Well said. That charo thinks ugly dirt digging is vetting is quite telling. Birtherism thrives on puerile smears, cold bigotry and fear mongering.
People her assume I’m a birther, but I never said Obama was born overseas… In law, there can be a statute that runs on for many pages, and in the middle there can be an “and” …..out of these thousands of words, if you take out the “and” and then replace it with “or” you have probably just altered the general meaning of the law..This is something you guys should be aware of when reading my comments. Plus there are instances when carelessness enters the picture, but Im the one to blame then, not you.
No. The Business field is not a race identification field.
That field has a codeset that relates to business types and would include items such as ‘Banking’ or ‘Self Employed’ or ‘University’ or ‘Mining’, or ‘Manufacturing’.
The Nordyke Twins father said he was a ‘Doctor’ in ‘Private Practice’ and his business was coded as a ‘1’. Does that somehow mean that his Kind of Business or Industry was ‘white’? No. It means that for the box 12b there was a code set that indicated that ‘Private Practice’ should be coded as a ‘1’.
Each and every box has its own code set. But when the boxes encode the same type of information, such as race codes, it makes sense that the code sets for the different boxes should be the same.
The reason you won’t find the code sets in either the 1961 or 1968 FEDERAL specifications is because they are describing the record layout for the data file that the States are required to supply to the Feds. The Feds were apparently not interested in the Occupation or Business of the parents and so they did not provide a code set for it.
Hawai’i was interested that data, so they did encode it and store it in their data base. They would use the standard code sets that the Feds supplied, and develop their own codesets for data items that the Feds did not supply.
This is trivial for me to understand because I built exactly these kind of systems for much of my working life. I realize that you may have absolutely no experience in this, but it really isn’t that difficult a concept.
Suppose you are doing an inventory of your house and you have to encode the contents of drawers because you are moving out of your share house and the movers need to know what is in your bedroom. They don’t care about the kitchen drawers because they are only responsible for moving your bedroom materials. For the bedroom drawers, you have the following options:
1) socks
2) underwear
3) bras
4) handkerchiefs
5) belts
6) jewelry
7) weapons
8) love letters
9) miscellanious whatnots, other
On the other hand YOU are interested in the Kitchen drawers, because you have to split of the contents with your ex-roommates. So do you use the same set of codes the Moving Company provided you with? Does it make sense that a Kitchen Drawer would be used to store bras or love letters?
Or do you build your own set of codes, maybe something like
1= table ware
2= spices
3= cooking utensils
4= plates
5= towels
6= canned goods
7= takeaway menus
8= cleaning products
9= appliance instruction manuals
A= spare batteries
B= spare light bulbs
C=gold fish food
D= cat food
E= cat litter
Z= miscellanious whatnots, other
So you see, the different code numbers mean different things depending upon the CONTEXT.
Code 3 for a Bedroom Drawer is “Bras”; Code 3 for a Kitchen Drawer is “Cooking Utensils”.
Code 9 for a Bedroom Drawer is “miscellanious whatnots, other”; Code 9 for a Kitchen Drawer is “appliance instruction manuals”.
Code 9 in the Hawai’ian Birth Certificate field 9 is “other, non-white”; Code 9 in the 12b is “University”.
Does that help you at all?
He signed an updated Patriot Act, true, a version that cleaned up a bit of the excrement. (but not, in my opinion anywhere enough).
Not ideal, but an improvement, and all that could be done in the political climate. The opposition filibuster anything and everything. To make any progress at all is a major accomplishment. Vetoing the updated bill and leaving the old POS Bill in effect was not an option.
Sorry. I didn’t mean to be piling on, but you sounded like you were in such pain not understanding about different codesets for different contexts that I just had to try to address your confusion before I had finished the whole thread.
The others addressed sooner and probably better than I did, and apparently successfully. I am glad that is cleared up for you.
Ideally, yes. But that is not the way it has ever been or will be. It’s not that for me, my immediate thought was let me know the exact birth circumstances of President Obama. As the issue unfolded, events surrounding the birth (not the conception) became important because of the questions about the birth certificate. John McCain’s birth certificate was questioned as well. If someone submitted a forged birth certificate, that would be important. That was the issue. It died down for me, but now there is a codes issue that for you is resolved. When the 1961 manual appears, which it will, then the proof will be there. There will be no speculation about that. If the Codes pan out to be as alleged here, then that is off the table (for me). I say that without reservation.
I don’t care if someone came from a broken home. That they rise above difficult circumstances should be admired.
In closing, thanks for portraying me in the worst light possible. I do good in the world, but I also make mistakes.
Really? By whom? No one saw it except one reporter. There were questions by a tiny minority as to whether someone born outside the US was eligible, but that wasn’t why McCain lost the election.
Explain to me why Hawaii would validate a forged birth certificate, please. I like fairy tales.
Suppose you aren’t satisfied. What will you do? Not vote for Obama? Please tell me you would vote for him if the 1961 manual checked out. Then please tell me to watch out for flying pigs.
Can you document “torture” going on under Obama? Even Bush stopped waterboarding by about 2006.
As for spying on the public, let’s be clear that has been going on for ever. All governments monitor communications among the public and always have. The methods used change with technology, but the essentials remain the same. There are violent people out there who represent genuine threats. Some of them have middle eastern names and some of them have names like James Holmes or Timothy McVeigh. Sometimes lines may be crossed that shouldn’t be, but to say the government should do nothing to protect the public and only react after lives are lost isn’t right either.
Obama believes in democracy and in the ballot box. Orly Taitz, Denialists, the Settlers and the Christian Taliban do not.
http://adultthought.ucsd.edu/culture_war/the_american_taliban.html
You are simply delightful and a great source of information! I have enjoyed reading your comments. The essence of you is conveyed in the way you phrase your thoughts: kind, thoughtful, humorous intelligent. Reading your responses has been a privilege.
So did George W. Bush, and his citizenship was never in question. Politics should be separated from the eligibility issues.
Thanks, Mom. 🙂
I too just wanted to say that having your unique background and perspective added to the dialogue here has been most welcome. She is right that you also have the gift of expressing yourself through a very enjoyable and entertaining to read writing style.
So I too wish to not only welcome you here, but also hope that you’ll keep visiting and contributing.
I couldn’t think of a better summary of your posts than calling them both delightful and a great source of information.
Kudos.
Agreed!
Well said!
I completely agree. It is an overly simplistic notion to think that a new administration can just “magically” do whatever they want or easily change existing laws already in place. It completely ignores how our system of government functions – with limited powers constrained by various checks and balances of other branches of government, sadly often with people of opposing ideologies simply blocking and making things difficult for no other reason than to be difficult and try to prevent the other party from succeeding.
So yeah it is messy, imperfect, frustrating, inefficient, often gridlocked and add odds with itself, but THAT is the basic reality of how our system of government functions.
There are defects within not just the system, but within certain laws that most people are unhappy about. But nothing can be improved by ignoring the inescapable basic reality of the structure and its inherent pitfalls. Yet a lot of people simply like to throw tantrums for the sake of getting off on complaining in the context of glib and meainingless oversimplifications, instead of actually narrowing down into specific details of what they would like to see improved and how that realistically and pragmatically can be accomplished.
Real life and the process of governance will always be full of various sets of trade-offs. As populations grow and technology improves, the dynamics necessary to maintain a stable society likewise need to adapt. New policy solutions will always be frought with trade-offs in both benefits derived and new problems created. The pragmatic and smart approach is to then narrow down to deal with how to further improve on those specific problems, not just overreact and demand overthrowing the whole structure. That simply accomplishes nothing, except going backwards.
There simply are no “magic solutions” that can benefit and make everyone happy in reality.
Again with histronics!
Sorry Charo, but my reply post intentionally discussed the diference in vetting and petty smears in general terms and does NOT include one single word accusatory word directed at you specifically.
However, you tend to read a reply like that and take it personally. I can only conclude from such a reaction, that when one takes such a response personally, it is because that person knows deep down that they are guilty of the very petty behaviors that are being described.
We all are human and make mistakes, Charo. Our good works are simply not justification or free passes to free ourselves from accountability on our faults and when we fall. They are merely demonstrable proof that we are capable of being better than that and should always hold ourselves accountable to strive for higher standards and seek to improve our own faults.
So, if YOU happen to see yourself reflected in petty behaviors described, YOU should first give yourself credit for recognizing that this is an area of weakness for you and then should self-reflect on how you can strive to do better in the future and work to hold yourself accountable to higher standards, in line with the tenents and inspirations of your faith.
Simply lashing out and whining that someone else noticed poor behavior that you recognize you tend to exhibit is not the answer. It is simply an immature emotional dodge from taking personal responsibility and striving to be a better person.
Charo, you and I have a long history of dialogue on here. Don’t lose sight that despite our areas of disagreement and where you feel “chastised” by me, that my overall opinion of you is a POSITIVE one. I have always seen you as a “good person” overall and I get a lot of flack on here for treating you different than I do most of the “Birther” posters that show up and spout off. For me, the things you’ve shared and your ability to dialogue has earned a level of respect, credibility and demonstrated your humanity. So when I respond in a “chastizing” way to you, it is because I *do* care and have faith in you and KNOW that you ARE capable of conveying yourself and behaving better and more honestly than certain of your posts reveal.
@American Mzungu: I wrote “Obama born in Kenya? No.”
http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html
Could I have your critique? Thank you in advance.
Please note: I am Jewish, and detest stereotypes. If I have done that, tell me and I will change the article.
I appreciate the comments of welcome and encouragement. I’ll try not to threadjack the discussions with random stories about climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro or dodging bullets fired by Idi Amin’s goons.
American Mzungu: I’ll try not to threadjack the discussions with random stories about climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro or dodging bullets fired by Idi Amin’s goons.
oh don’t do that – i enjoy the “color” – you are a welcomed asset here
now (as a leo & female), tell me how pretty that tanzanite is that you bought for your “wife to be”
I don’t actually, G. For some reason, this site brings out the worst in me. You are not a psychoanalyst, at least not that I am aware of. Maybe you just play one at OCT? I actually have a pretty full life that doesn’t leave that much room for pettiness. I generally have gotten along much better with men during my years of employment (with exceptions of course) because they tend not to be petty. I think men offer more challenging discussions without the cattiness.
No, please do. I don’t think anyone would mind, but I am not speaking for Dr C, owner of this site.
OT: Idi Amin was 10x worse than Saddam Hussein, but Ford did not send in the Marines. No oil.
Dr.C. usually has an open thread going on. I can’t speak for him, but I can’t imagine him objecting to a few stories.
Bravo Scientist! I agree completely with both the tone and points in your responses here.
It is patently DISINGENOUS insinuations like this from Charo, which really disappoint me.
I don’t know why she keeps devolving to having the need to cast such petty aspersions, PARTICULARLY on stances where we all know that SHE herself knows better than what she is saying.
I mean to throw out that whole silly McCain excuse is extremely hollow and an intentional wilful act of dishonesty from her. She’s been around and kept aware of this whole Birther saga almost as much as many of us have. This isn’t a new claim, NOR is it one that hasn’t been addressed many times before. So she knows fully well the detailed FACTS that ONLY a reporter saw McCain’s BC and that the ONLY folks who challenged it were other Birthers. Therefore, she is being particularly intentionally deceptive in trying to insinuate a fake controversy that she is fully aware doesn’t even exist.
So yeah, all the points you called her out on amount to nothing more than obvious and INTENTIONAL Concern Trolling tactics, with ZERO sincerity behind those words.
She doesn’t like Obama. We get that. She doesn’t have to vote for him – and has ZERO intention of doing so. We are fully aware of that and respect her right to not vote for him.
Why can’t she just be an honest and sincere person and ADMIT these things upfront, instead of coming up with silly smears and excuse arguments, that we all know she is fully aware are nothing more than hollow smears…
She really needs to seriously reflect upon her personal behaviors and actions and accept responsibility for her own continued wilful acts of sin and try better to hold herself up to the purported tenets of her own faith. Both deception and self-deception fly in the face of everything that Jesus’ parables try to teach.
Good idea! I agree. The Occasional Open Thread is a perfect forum for such things.
As with any thread, we can often get distracted and go off on side-tangents. Sometimes Doc is helpful enough to move our O/T conversations to the Open Thread, but that’s putting a lot of work on his shoulders, where we should simply try to do better to just move the O/T conversations to there ourselves.
He’s created that Occasional Open Thread sandbox for our benefit for just that very purpose.
G: I mean to throw out that whole silly McCain excuse is extremely hollow and an intentional wilful act of dishonesty from her.
This what I remembered and did not purposefully and intentionally make a dishonest statement. It was the Hollander certificate that was in dispute, not the one the reporter showed .
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/the-birth-certificate-is-a-forgery/
I don’t want to hurt Charo’s feelings, because we’ve had some light-hearted exchanges, but I agree that she sometimes comes off as a professional nit-picker, one who would, for example, relish exploring the significance that the background in Obama’s birth certificate appears as light green when it should be pale green. She wants the minor issues she raises to be taken seriously, and then becomes personally offended when her concerns are dismissed or critiqued.
Essentially, I don’t think she likes Obama, and that probably motivates some of her behavior.
LOL! Good response! You are correct, I am certainly not an trained psychoanalyst. But let’s be completely honest about human nature for a second – we ALL make “psychoanalytical” inferences based on combining past experience with other human interactions whenever we encounter other people. That is a simple fundamental reality to any human encounter and as soon as you interact and put yourself out there with other people, they can only draw conclusions based on what they know and what you present. We all do it. That is where continued dialogue becomes helpful to explain, correct or enhance perceptional conclusions drawn.
I appreciate you explaining that you feel this site brings out the worst in you. That comes across as a very open and honest statement and I think it makes total sense. Many of the interests, backgrounds and personal views/ideologies expressed here are quite different from your own, so visiting here can seem like traveling to a strange foreign land at best and seem like hostile territory at worst. I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to have a gut feel of guarded defensiveness, bordering on trigger-itch combativeness, just by coming out of your comfort zone and going here.
The advantage of internet blogs is that we all have the luxury of defensively gut-reacting to something…but having the ability to review and reflect before we actually post a response. Trust me, I certainly need to work to do much better at doing that too… basic human nature for everyone. But I do hold myself accountable and responsible for anything I say and do and spend a lot of time in self-reflection and self-criticism for where I fall short or could have done/said something better that I did.
I also agree with your generalized assessment that (especially in the workplace), there tends to be more pettiness and cattiness whenever more women are present and that the dynamic is generally different amongst men. That being said, rest assured that there are lots of petty men out there and that all of us, myself included, can easily fall into the trap of thinking or emotionally behaving in petty ways at times. Again, I think that is simply built into the human condition…but something we are all capable of getting better at dealing with, as long as we care enough to try.
I can also think of numerous personal experience examples of women in the workplace who don’t fall under that generalization of petty/catty behavior, even when they are stuck in an work-envioronment that is rife with it. Again, I simply think that is a reflection of different individuals being self-aware enough to work towards not falling into such petty/catty emotional traps and those that only reinforce their own bad habits by retaining an immature mentality of entitlement, with very little sense of personal responsibility or accountability.
The Hollander certificate was not McCain’s. If someone made a phony driver’s license with your name on it , your driver’s license would not be in dispute.
But let’s cut to the chase and stop mincing words and dancing and playing with pencil marks. Regarding Obama’s certificate, Hawaii has said more times than I can count and in more ways than I can count that they issued a real paper document and the information on it regarding his birth is correct. They even confirmed this to the Arizona Sec of State. Logic then says there are only 3 possibilities regarding the document the Whte House has shown:
1. It is an electronic image of Obama’s true birth certificate (with inevitable artefacts of scanning) and he was born in Hawaii.
2. It is a forgery, but with all the correct information and he was born in Hawaii.
3. It is a forgery and Hawaii is part of a mammoth conspiracy and is covering up,along with the INS, IRS, SSA, CIA, FBI, SSS, PDQ, JZZ and every agency of government under any number of Administrations since 1961.
You should come clean and tell us without equivocation which of those you believe. If you believe 2, please explain why anyone would forge a document with all the correct information, rather than just using the one Hawaii gave them. And if you believe 3, please explain what the goal of this conspiracy is and why they needed to bother with Obama. I mean a conspiracy that powerful could surely get what they wanted with Hillary or McCain or Romney in the White House, just as they did with Bush I and II, Clinton, Reagan, etc.
I don’t mean to sound hostile, but it’s time you laid it all on the table without weasel words or equivocation. It might even make you feel good.
Ahem. Charo, you’re embarrasing yourself.
But you know darn well that Hollander is just another Birther. He may have casted a wider net and went after both Obama *and* McCain… but then quite a few of these Birthers do, especially what’s become the “2 citizen parent” nonsense crowd.
Why bring up McCain as an example at all, unless you are attempting to intentionally insinuate a false eqivocation?
There simply is no comparative correlation of any set of people, who aren’t Birthers, that have pursued any similar style serious attacks on the citizenship and eligibility of any other candidate. The only ones who also pursued this line of attack on McCain (or lately Rubio, etc.) are those that are already in the irrational Birther camp.
Therefore, there is NO practical point in making those type of McCain insinuations, beyond just trying to throw out a glib unsupportable smear in an attempt to distract/dodge away from other points. If “unintentional”, it is certainly an “unthinking” quip at best and therefore still disingenuous in terms of its lack of supporting rationnale.
Isn’t that what is done here? The issue that I thought was the serious issue is the code. It is the subject of various threads. That necessarily will involve some side issues. I was supplying a logical reason why, if the Code 9 were unstated, then the father was not named. That to me is a form of vetting, and it is not intrusive. The long form was already released. If you don’t care one iota about the issue, I am not going to degrade you here or anywhere else.
You have accepted that the Code means as Dr.C. has determined. I want to see the 1961 manual. That is a very tangible piece of information. I thought the long form itself really ended it. It turns out, it didn’t. You may call that nitpicking. That won’t hurt my feelings. I expect that people in politics are in the big leagues. It isn’t fair. It stinks. George Bush’s service was questioned and we all remember that fiasco with the false documents. The people who were not going to vote for Bush had a right to know whether documents were falsified, just as the people who were planning to vote for him.
Against McCain? You’re so caught up in your anger that I am not even following you anymore.
Whatever, G. You win. Don’t forget that virtual chest bump.
Add me to the list of people interested in the stories!
The Bush documents were not verified by the state or federal agency that issued them. Obama’s birth certificate is, multiple times and ways. That is night vs day. I asked above that you choose one of the only 3 logical possibilities that exist here. Will you do so? Is there a giant conspiracy or not?
Since the State of Hawaii verifies the birth certificate, whatever marks are on it are the ones THEY put there, whether they agree wiith Doc’s manual, Corsi’s manual or no manual at all. Or there is a ginormous conspiracy. There are no other possibilities.
You’ve been given a big clue about how to go about getting it. Get one.
Is it necessary to beat up on Charo folks? She’s a long-time poster. She doesn’t drop birther memes and exit quickly. She adds to the conversation. Don’t be so quick to jump. And please avoid religion-bashing, it’s one of the things that turns religious people from all sides off your message.
Don’t go, Charo.
It was a very good effort, especially for 2010!
However, we now know that Obama (Sr.) did not leave the U.S. during this period of time and Ann would have had to make this trip alone. That would have been an unbelievable amount of stress on a teenager late in pregnancy. As you note, there would have been a lot of preparation. I remember those shots, which unfortunately did not prevent me from getting malaria (because I didn’t take the choroquin in a “malaria-free zone”. Obama Sr. would have had to write his family to get their approval. I think they would have given it, and started to make preparations on their end. I think they would have welcomed Ann as an honored guest, under the appropriate protocols for Luo culture. (I was welcomed in a neighboring tribe, so I’m not sure of the Luo protocols, but I wouldn’t be surprised at a similar welcome. I was accompanied from Nairobi by a fellow about my age, who took me there and walked me through my social responsibilities, step-by-step, day-by-day. I was told on day three that tomorrow I was expected to give each of the five wifes and the clan leader appropriate gifts of appreciation. Thanks for the advance warning, Charles. I’ll run right out to Walmart and get something. 🙂 I think they would have done this, despite the first wife and two children. Polygamy was practiced by the Obama clan.
But I digress. I think you got the trip to Europe about right. Ann might have taken Icelandic Air across the Atlantic because it was the cheapest airline in 1961. About $440, if I remember correctly. A prop plan landing in Iceland and Glasgow. The flight to East Africa would have involved several stops. In 1965 we stopped in Rome and Benghazi, then at Entebbe (Uganda). She would have been met by a family member who could get her to Kogelo–a family member who had enough experience in bridging the culture gap between village culture and a American visitor–someone with English skills and experience in solving logistics problems.
You did well to get Ann on the East African railroad. She would have initially gone back to Nairobi, maybe do a little animal sightseeing at the game reserve outside Nairobi. Then the attempt to get on the plane, refused. That would have really created a crisis, and somebody had to help her figure out what to do. The reasonable plan would have been to go back to Kisumu and have the baby there, but going to Mombasa to catch a ship back home would have been a really dumb idea. It would have been a “slow boat to China” back to Honolulu, with the baby born en route. Birther lore has the baby coming early, but there are no time frames that make sense if there is a boat trip back. There is some serious money involved in all of this. You did a nice job just estimating the cost of communicating back to Honolulu, and there would have been lots of long cables involved along the way. This was before the day of credit cards that could be payed off later. She would have needed some serious cash for unbudgeted expenses throughout a stay.
Back to Nairobi after a stay in the hospital? The long reverse journey back with a newborn? Let’s talk about diaper logistics and feeding, shall we?
I thought Mr. Woodman did a good job of imagining a conversation between Ann and her parents before the trip. Can you imagine the conversation after the trip? There would have been stories. Even if you assume the stories were supressed by Ann and her family, they would have become legends in Kogelo. This is an oral history culture. When Obama (Jr.) made his pilgrimage to Kogelo when he was a young man, Sara and everyone in the compound would have told him stories. The stories would have gotten better with age.
I actually have a friend working on it.
I don’t get your point about tthe father being “unstated”. The father IS stated. It is Barack Obama Sr. You really don’t make much sense.
Wow, whatever, I appreciate that. I know it sounds cheesy to say “I need to spend more time with my family” but I can get so caught up here that I have kids clamoring for my attention! I have a little down time and really enjoy the give and take, but when it gets ugly, it’s not so enjoyable. I really have vowed not to come back for both reasons, but I really do enjoy discussion. I have always played Devil’s Advocate, so to speak, my whole life.
Your comment means a lot to me because I know that you are a regular here also. I wonder what will happen to everyone here after Obama is out of office, whenever that may be?
What is being claimed is that somebody falsely put in the father’s name and occupation because if code 9 in the Hawaiian manual means not stated, then the fields should have nothing typed in. That is the whole issue being raised. That is the reason why I brought up vetting. I know in your opinion that even if true (that the codes do show that the fields should be blank), it is irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you and others, but it would be relevant to some. I don’t see that as a conjugal issue.
First, if the manual is found, then the headlines would be so detrimental that I can’t see Dr. Corsi (or Mr. Zullo for that matter) ever recovering. Even though Dr. C. thinks he is already finished, there is still enough wiggle room now. There won’t be any if the manual is produced and it proves 100% fraud.
So I walked into one of the best jewerly shops in Nairobi and put my briefcase on the counter and said “Tanzanite”. The Asian owner asked, “Buying or selling?”
We talked and I described the setting I wanted and he said come back in five days. It wasn’t quite what I wanted and he said, “No problem, we can sell it to someone else.” We tried again, and it was accepted by my wife-to-be when I got back to the U.S.
I had the wedding band inscribed with a Swahili line that translates roughly to “I love you, Sweetheart.” She’s still wearing it.
Thanks again for your insight to the imagined saga. When I first thought about how it would be possible for young girl going to Kenya, this is what came to mind in favor of the idea.
1) The young girl would have to have an extraordinary spirit, a streak of rebellion and independence. That seemed to fit.
2) Did other American mothers manage to make it to Kenya? I thought of the missionaries, and how they had children there. This seemed to fit but not quite as well because they had lots of planning for the trip and did not need to leave immediately after having a child. Nursing the baby would probably not be an issue and diapers? Well, that could be handled as well. We mothers are simply spoiled nowadays, but most of us have found ourselves in a fix now and again regarding the diaper issue. We improvise. Yet, there was a video of a supposed friend of Stanley Ann’s from Washington (which non-birthers have discredited) who said that she didn’t have very much knowledge of caring for a baby.
3) Money of course. Where would that have come from? A benefactor of some kind.
…
I hope you will bear with this interruption (and scattered thoughts) because I wanted to respond more. Just on a quick note, there are more negatives to be presented which outweigh the few positives in my extremely amateur analysis.
(I loved your Walmart comment lol)
Maybe i’m dense, but who would have done that and why? I don’t see a coherent story here. Could you go through the scenario that you are claiming step-by-step for those of us who aren’t too bright? Include as much detail as you can, please. Thanks
American Mzungu: I had the wedding band inscribed with a Swahili line that translates roughly to “I love you, Sweetheart.” She’s still wearing it.
awwww sweet
you’re not only a great story teller, a font of wonderful experiences & information but also a romantic
très charmant!!!!
No, I won’t. I have done it before in the past and it lead to much dissension. There is really no need anyways. If the manual shows that Dr. C. is right, whamo! CCP nailed 100%. If the Code shows otherwise? We’ll see then.
Maybe i’m dense,
– And I’m claimed to be disingenuous?
If the Code shows otherwise, then Obama Sr was not named as the father of a child that is named for him? Why name a kid Jr, but pretend Sr is not the Dad? That makes no sense.
You really need to think about this, because your scenario is very, very weak on logic.
Thank you. I read it twice, and copied it to my RAID.
$440.00 = $3,376.93, in constant dollars. http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
Then you are on very solid ground.
You bet I am. You and the CCP are up to your necks in quicksand with an idiiotic story that someone would name their kid So-and-So Jr and then say “I don’t know who the Dad is”. You have to admit that is really dumb..
Not stated does not necessarily mean the mother doesn’t know. It means not stated, for whatever reason the mother choose not to state. There has to be a way to document that scenario for a mother who didn’t state who the father was, whether or not Stanley Ann ever existed. Dr. C. surmises “x” was used.
Listen buddy: Don’t claim me as part of the CCP. I don’t know what the manual says. They say they do.
I really think it’s a good idea. But I can understand your comment. Would you mind if I draft a scenario and you (and others) can critique it?
I gladly would.
Sure there are cases where a mother will truly not know or will refuse to say. But when the mother is married to Joe Blow and she names the kid Joe Blow, Jr. then she is telling the entire world that Joe Blow is the dad. So, there may be cases where the father is put down as unknown, but that is simply impossible in the President’s case (or George Bush’s for that matter) because they are named AFTER their fathers.
Either way, Corsi, Zullo and the CCP are on the defensive, as one of their major ‘disclosures’ appears to, once again, be based on flawed analysis and assumptions.
Now, they may still be correct but so far they have failed to provide any convincing evidence to support their claims, and the fact that they used 1968 manual data totally undermines their credibility. Not that I believe they had much left of it, but now it will be hard for even the most determined birther to continue to claim that the Posse showed that the ‘9’ on the document meant ‘not stated’ and thus that the document is false.
Of course, logically speaking this does not make sense. Obama Jr was given the same name as his father, so why would the father not have been entered? And of course from the newspaper announcements we know that the father was in fact known.
Such follies.
Oh, yeah! I thought about that back way back when. I am under the impression that companies like Nestle were pushing baby formula on the hospitals in Africa pretty heavily back then. The Nestle boycott in the 70’s (IIRC) was specifically due to this fact. The hospitals would discourage breast feeding in favor of formula, the mother would take the baby home with an introductory supply of formula and then mix it up with contaminated water, and possibly cease lactating forcing a continued dependence on formula. Breast feeding would have helped build up the child’s immunities, formula feeding helped destroy them.
As a Westerner, Stanley Ann would have insisted clean water for her formula preparation. How easy would that have been to accomplish, I wonder?
DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT
The nurse walks into Ann’s room on the afternoon of the second day, bringing back the baby from the nursery. Nurse talk…”How are you getting along with your new baby, Stanley? Your first? Was that your husband I saw coming out of your room this morning?” Nurse getting down to business…”We’ll need to get some information for the records. I’ll leave the form here and you can fill it in when you have a chance. I’ll pick it up later.” Nurse picks up baby Obama two hours later to return him to the nursery and asks, “Have you had a chance to work on filling out the form, yet?” “Well, you can give it to the nurse coming in on the next shift or I’ll pick it up when I get back on duty tomorrow.”
Stanley fills in most of it that night, but leaves blank the entry for father’s race, because she knows Obama (Sr.) has strong opinions about being an African from Africa, but she feels it might seem a strange and unfamiliar answer in Hawaii. So she leaves it blank, intending to confirm later with her husband that he wants her to put down “African”. He doesn’t come in that night has he had promised, and Stanley leaves the form on the stand next to her bed. She is asleep in the morning when the nurse comes in, and the nurse gives it a brief look to make certain it is signed. It seems to be filled out, but she doesn’t see that the father’s race wasn’t filled out. Walks out without waking Stanley Ann.
It gets processed at the hospital: typed out, and signed by the doctor. Off to the registrar for processing. It gets coded, and the key punch operator sees no entry for father’s race, and punches 9, for no data, but calls a supervisor after thinking about it because it is a field that should be filled out. The supervisor puts the form aside and says, “We need to get this information filled in” and she calls the hospital, but Stanley has already checked out. The supervisor asks the hospital if they have a telephone number to contact the father or mother, and the get in touch with Stanley Ann, who says, “Put down African”, which the supervisor has a clerk type in, and put into the binder with the rest of the batch.
I’m confused. You are looking for the 1961 specifications? And you have a friend working on it for you?
Why don’t you just chase the link that the Doc published in an earlier blog post?
Absolutely, nit-picking goes on here all the time. By “professional” I was trying to imply a level of concern that appears to go beyond commonsense or necessity. The state of Hawaii has certified Obama’s birth certificate; unless you think the DoH is lying, I don’t see the necessity to argue the accuracy of the code.
It is a reasonable scenario about that field.
The problem is that Charo doesn’t seem to be talking about the father’s RACE field. She seems to be talking about the father’s NAME.
Another scenario for the race field is that Stanley Ann or Barrack Sr. wrote down ‘AFRICAN’ in the first place and the data entry prep encoded it as ‘9’ – other non-white.
After she gets out of the hospital in Mombasa, she goes back to the hotel room where Sarah and the helper/interpreter is staying. They buy baby bottles, baby clothes, blankets, all the necessities. They mix up enough formula and to get baby Obama back to Nairobi. They check into another hotel while Ann and helper make arrangements for plane tickets back home. Sarah stays with the baby while they are gone. Stanley buys a week’s worth of diapers and formula to get back to Honolulu. They pack some of the necessities in luggage and some on carry on–enough for the duration of each leg. For the next six days she is making up formula and changing the baby every two and a half hours. In the plane, in the airports, With a very cranky, crying baby. With no baby caring skills. With the blessings of each airline.
Mzungu: There is another issue. How to get the baby back to the US. Even newborns need documents. If the baby is a US citizen, the US embassy could add the baby to her passport, but, if the birth happened in Kenya the baby is not a US citizen. So the birthers posit a phony registration back in Hawaii, then the Dunhams send the certficate to Stanley Ann in Kenya. The problem there, besides the time that would take, is how would she explain how she got that baby from Hawaii into Kenya and through the various places in Europe in transit? Hmm…
The other alternatiive is to get a UK and colonies passport for the baby. Not sure how she does that without the father there. And then to bring a non-citizen baby into the US with her she would need a visa from the US Embassy. Again a problem. So the birthers say she smuggled the baby in through Canada or Mexico. Problem is, they required passports for overseas arrivals just like the US does,
So we are left with having a ship pull up to the 3 mile limit off Hawaii and mom and baby have to swim or transfer to a canoe. Sounds plausible, eh?
I didn’t watch the Arpio press conference, but I thought they (only) focused on an inconsistency with the field with father’s race. Is there any other item that the CCP claimed was inconsistent with the coding? If so, I could try to revise. Help me out here, Charo.
I don’t know why you are saying that. I am talking about the race field.
Then don’t argue it. I don’t know why there would be a discrepancy if there even is one.
American Mzungu,
Your explanation could become the adopted narrative because it is plausible and dignified (if it even turns out that 9 means unstated.) There are some not so positive bits of information that could lead to a supposed different scenario than you posit. This is not the worst fact because it may be just a cultural misunderstanding, but have you wondered when Stanley Ann first knew that her husband had another wife? Do you find the evidence plausible that suggests the couple never lived together as husband and wife after the birth of the child?
These matters are delicate. Now that I think more on it, even if the Codes do show 9 means “unstated,” there will never be full closure (if your scenario is a truly realistic one as regards the technicalities of the preparation of the certificate).
BTW, when I started analyzing whether it would be even remotely possible for a young pregnant woman to go to Kenya for the birth of her child, it was with the assumption that her husband would have been with her. Because he was not (as was positively proven later by tracking his travel), the negatives so much outweigh the positives that the discussion really becomes moot, particularly with every added comment you make! Did any woman nurse her child back then or where they all shamefully duped into believing formula was the way to go (when breastfeeding is free)? I am showing my bias toward nursing here.
I should say that there would be full closure if the codes are as DR.C. contends. I mean there would not be closure if they should show otherwise.
I don’t argue it. I don’t understand why you are.
It is a loose end, for me.
Scientist, you said our govt has been monitoring our communications since “forever”….well, forever is a very long time. if you had said for 50 yrs that would have made more sense, than “forever”
Obama represents continuity of agenda, he is Bushbama,… similar policy on mid east, the budget, Israel lobby, the southern border, the police state here at home, etc. The difference is, Obama has left wing cover…which allowed him to move proxy forces into Libya and now Syria, plus overthrow the democratically elected govt in Honduras…
Obama never had anything to sell out, he got to his position by showing all along- as Illinois state sen to US senator, to presidential candidate – by showing all along his obedience to the actual owners of the nation. ….The cult of Obama, similar to the cult of Ron Paul, etc. a child can see this.
I stopped reading the long rebuttals (more than 4 sentences) two days ago, so dont bother.
In other words, “Don’t you dare try to refute me, cuz I only talk and never listen.” You go, dave!
dave: Find another country. There are approximately 200 to choose from. Bye.
Oh, please! It’s hilarious and worthy of a response of unabashed laughter and derision. But, PLEASE, by all means, go ahead and try it. I’m just giddy with anticipation watching how birtherstan has to accept ANOTHER rendition of the beginnings of the man who has been born a thousand times.
???? I was talking about American Mzungu’s explanation should there be a discrepancy in the Codes. He is on YOUR side!
I was talked into attending a “grandparenting” class before my grandaughter was born last month. I learned more information about breastfeeding than I could possible use. 🙂 How long before a 17 year old would produce enough breast milk after birth to keep the baby alive? Under the circumstances, Ann would have gone with the formula because it was “guaranteed”. to produce enough food to keep the baby alive on the trip back. There would have been no doctors on the plane or airports to give medical advice during that important early stage of life. We and our children had circumstances that allowed for breastfeeding.
Regarding the Barack/Stanley marriage, I think you are looking for a different closure than I. Trying to do that through a public forum is very difficult.
I agree. The marriage ended rather early, and you can draw your own conclusions from that, particularly if you have looked through the INS file on Sr. released through a FOIA request.
What a devoted grandfather, attending class and all! Prepare yourself for some more information that you REALLY want to hear 🙂 After giving birth, a woman has such a strong milk supply that she aches! It levels out after some days. But this assumes the health of the mother is good and that the baby has no physical problems preventing latching. Well, I think I went far enough on that one.
It is a pleasure interacting on the website with you. I am not always a commenter, but I will try to look for more of your insights in the future. Is it really this late? Dishes await me.
You are saying nothing but moronic crap. Is that a short enough rebuttal?
The word you want is ‘lactating.’
Actually, I did mean latching- the baby’s ability to attach itself to the relevant body part. Lactating is what the mommy does. I don’t mean to sound like a know-it-all; I breastfeed for 10 years. (TMI I know)
Yes, your disregard for logic, facts and reason were duly noted and predicted. Poor Dave, ignorance and fear have caused him to allow himself to be manipulated by others.
Unaware, he is working for the forces he claims Obama is working for. Obama however is too smart to be manipulated.
OK, then I have misread your comments. I’ll go back over them when I have a chance, but I seem to recall you saying something along the lines that the Father was ‘not stated’. Perhaps it was just a shortcut.
Nestle was massively promoting formula in ‘under developed’ countries.
Thus the international boycott.
Thanks for making me look that up by the way. I thought the boycott had ended. It hasn’t. Perhaps you would like to get involved.
First of all, I do think there is very valid criticism in what you’ve said, about how my own particular word choices and methods to emphasize or make certain points stand out, can come across to others. Definitely a fair and real criticism for me to reflect on and try to improve. I have no problem accepting that and admit that my reactions at times bolder, harsher and more intense than they deserve to be. I also could do much better at being succinct instead of so flourishingly explanative in my responses. Another one of my faults.
So yes, I realize that my words can seem harsh and end up coming across as more personally hurtful to you than intended. I also think that you have a tendency to get overly sensitive at times. Knowing that, I perhaps should consider being softer, as I do overall like and care about you. So I absolutely am intentionally trying to call you out on certain things I observe and let you know how they come across. Make no mistake about that. But I’m sure I need to do a much better job at expressing that, as my goal is really just to find a way to actually get through to you and hold you accountable , but not to hurt you or your feelings. I certainly am struggling on how to accomplish the one, without necessarily invoking the other… So yes, lots for me to reflect on here as well.
Again, I feel you’ve made a valid point and criticism here. However, there is a certain catch-22 to such things that I simply don’t know how to avoid. I’ve found that folks who deeply relate to the world through their faith seem more likely to not pay attention and reflect on what anyone else tells them, unless it is stated via a language prism that they claim to live by and can relate to. I don’t mean to offend your faith, but you’ve informed us that it one of the key drivers that shapes not just your outlook on life but your actions. I think that is fine. Since that is how you seem to view the world, I’m simply asking you to spend some time and critically judge your own phrasings and behaviors and assess how well they meet up with your intended values and the wisdom of the messages that you purport to follow for guidance…
So again, I think you are just falling prey to being in an automatic “defensive” mode towards any advice, that makes you see things more as attacks than advice. But I’ll think hard about how I can try to communicate in a less confrontational tone too.
In general, no – not a prerequisite for discussion. In regards to your specific exchange with Scientist, it was your peculiar preceding explanation that resulted in bringing up that question, in order to ascertain where you were going with that and what point you were trying to make. Let’s re-roll the tape of that exchange:
So again, you need to spend more time re-examining what you initially said and think through how it comes across and what it implies. I find Scientist’s response to be a reasonable skeptical “what’s your point and where are you going with this” response, in light of what you wrote. It just seems odd, that with all the time you’ve spent on this that you were pretty much “fine” with accepting that he’s NBC and born in HI…but all of a sudden a minor little detail about not being sure what exactly pencil coding marks mean are somehow sufficient to throw the whole mountain of other corroborating evidence back into “doubt” for you…and that unless you get complete answers for this particular nit of minutiae, you are somehow bothered or concerned because…
…because why exactly? I just don’t get it. Scientist’s point is simply that it seems you will remain unsatisfied with Obama no matter what, so why obsess over this tiny trivial item that has very little meaning and impact in the grand scheme of things. It “matters” to you…because why exactly?
Look, I don’t consider you an actual “Birther”, just someone who is “Birther sympathetic”. By that, I mean that it sure seems like you WISH that someone would find some sort of “dirt” that would get rid of Obama. You are smart enough to realize that the Birther myths don’t hold up well, but it sure comes across like you are holding out “hope” that something will turn up…or at least survive as a smear long enough to politically damage him…
LOL! I’ve been fairly hard on you in my pushback, as of late. So I can understand why you reflexively lash back with a clever zinger. Simply an understandable defensive response, so I take no offense. But rest assured that I don’t enjoy nor “celebrate” having to push back on you. I simply want to see you restrain yourself to sincere dialogue, instead of feeling the need to call you out, when you veer into your tendency of throwing in dubious innuendo and such. I read all of your comments and think that overall, you add value and contribute a lot of decent technical points and questions. Just try better to stick to factual and sincere stuff and not having to throw in unnecessary “snotty” junk, ok? I’ll try to work on how I can try to be more respectful in trying to get through to you as well. I do always appreciate you coming here and realize that you’ve got a full life with other priorities.
I do view you as a regular contributor and member of the “community” of this particular board and I do regret any time that I end up “arguing” with you, instead of better communicating.
Again, that is sort of a false equivocation to make.
True, GWB’s service was questioned, resulting in that debacle with the false documents. Which was resolved within a matter of WEEKS… not continuing on under one endless goal-post shifting excuse after another for YEARS.
As soon as the falsification of documents came out, there was a fairly swift and appropriate fallout. A very prominent and well established reporter lost his job, as if I recall correctly, so did several other lower-level people connected with not doing better fact checking on that story before they foolishly ran with it.
So there were fairly swift and well-deserved consequences for making those unjustified accusations and once the matter was resolved, that was that. You didn’t see crazies repeatedly ressurecting the debunked corpse of those dubious claims over and over and over again.
There is NO similar responsibility or accountability in behavior on the Birther side.
That is a good question…
In pure speculation, I suspect it wouldn’t take long for some new conspiracy for a new era to arise to replace it… and perhaps pique our curiosity and attention. Of course, this site would probably have to change its name then… 😉
Actually, I doubt that. Well, perhaps that might be true for an amateur bit-player like Zullo, but I doubt for Corsi (or Farah). Corsi’s bread and butter is wallowing in swallop and peddling lies for profit. Being called out on it happens to him (and WND and WCJ) all the time. Being caught in lies has very little lasting effect on him, as his audience simply wants to be fed stories that tell them what they wish to hear. Truth is inconsequential and has little real relevance to how their business model operates. Sure, a stream of repeated dismal failures coupled with public debunking might slow sales and end up increasingly bleeding their support base away over time… but I simply don’t see anything small, like catching them in this particular lie (or set of lies) harming them with their “fan base” at all, no matter how many headlines it would get.
On that note, I highly doubt it would garnish that many headlines at all… For many, a headline saying WND or Arpaio caught in a lie is about as much of a newsflash as a headline stating “Water still wet”…
First, we’re going to get Corey Booker elected. Then, we’re going to get a national law for a living wage. Last, we’re going to outlaw straight marriage.
Well said. I agree.
How quaint and ironic, considering you yourself just posted quite a bit more than 4 sentences in rebuttal to Scientist…
My only question for you – since your background and influence seems to be Russian-leaning. Are you an American citizen, eligible to vote in the 2012 election?
I’m not sure that’s the proper milestone date.
Rationally speaking, one would think this would die down to nothingness after this coming January — no matter who is sworn in. At that point, either Obama will have been confirmed as President for a second time by Congress, or he won’t. End of story either way.
One would further think, then, that if this doesn’t die down after that, it will have the same shelf life as JFK, moon landing and truther conspiracy theories, which at this point appears to be: forever.
So, the end of Obama’s term of office would seem to be less than relevant in how long this will hang on.
The question will be: how long will maroons like Corsi and Zullo remain heavily invested in keeping up the level of funnystupid necessary to keep this entertaining? Orly seems to have run out of steam; the birthers need a farm team if they want to hold their audience.
Personally, my sons and I just discovered Arimaa today, and are having fun with that. So I’m set either way.
(One of those great long-car-trip conversations that started with, “If you played Scrabble against an AI, would its vocabulary and challenge-savvyness trump any and all strategy skills a human could bring to the game?”, routed through xkcd, and ended with discovering both a fun game and its inventor’s fascinating rationale for creating it.)
Yes
But the father’s name was entered otherwise the birth announcement would not have mentioned his name.
It’s possible but logically speaking it does not make a lot of sense.
So since we know that the news paper articles mentioned the father’s name, the issue seems to be resolved?
So what does this mean to your analysis?
Although OT, very fascinating stuff to learn about!! Thanks for sharing those links.
See! you ARE saying that the father’s name was not there! I don’t understand what your complaint with my remark is.
Furthermore, we already went over this thing about unrelated data fields each have their own encoding sets. Even if “9” means “not stated” in the race field, it would not mean that in the Father’s name field.
I also don’t see any data entry codes in the name box at all. How then do you justify your remark that the name was not stated because it was coded “9”?
There is no data entry code in the name field because the name is NOT encoded. It is typed exactly as entered. How would they possibly encode a million different names?
Are you sure? I thought the claim was that father’s race and occupation were not stated so the fields were originally blank, but now they have information in them so therefore someone altered the BC after the original was filed.
I was born in Southern California. There are pictures of me as a baby in my mother’s arms in Mexico. My mother is anti-Obama and was birther-curious before the LFBC was released. Though she and I disagree about a lot, I have to say she got the point, said okay she gets it, when I talked to her about how I just knew that she, at the age of nineteen, actually went to Mexico (around the same time as Obama’s birth) to give birth to me. And she is a feisty independent woman who did in fact tell the Marine doctors to go shove it when they told her they were going to give her drugs for childbirth no matter what she said (thus I was born in town, California not Mexico, rather than at the Marine base).
Thanks. On my way to work this morning I was thinking about the posts I had made outlining the challenges that Ann would have faced in a trip to Kenya. I tried to convey that I had experienced things that she would have gone through. They make for good stories. My “adventures” tended to be occasion events, with most of my time spent in the library and sleeping in a bed that was “at home”. The “adventures” tended to be exhausting, but I could recover fairly quickly once I got “home”. I had a network of support, and the times I hitchhiked, borrowed a vehicle, or ventured on bus trips on my own, the level of energy it took to meet the challenges that were “out there” was very high. Even the plane travel to and from was broken into hops so I could recover (and see some things and people along the way).
The scenario for Ann was quite different. It would have been one exhaustive event piled on exhaustive event on top of exhaustive event… I tried to create a little support in the person of an interpreter/guide, but that wouldn’t be much help in recovery. She would not have had a good night’s sleep in a month. Eight months pregnant, giving birth, caring for the baby while getting back home. Strange food, bad or questionable water, heat, insects, etc etc etc.
She could not have kept going without breaking down and needing rest. I don’t know what she supposedly was doing on this “safarii”, what would have provided the motivation to keep going. This was not a prisoner of war death march.
On that note, you make me remember that my sister-in-law, while pregnant, was driving with her husband around the Southeast in air conditioning on paved American roads, with rest stops and hotels, and the stress of that was hard enough on her that she had an incident requiring a visit to the hospital. All ended well, but not before controversy when the ER doctor suggested aborting the fetus and failing that to not take a plane back home (contradicted by her own doctor over the phone). She ended up flying two hours home and she had to take bed rest for the remainder of her pregnancy to make sure nothing went wrong.
So of course…QED…if you’re going to risk a miscarriage might as well do it while having adventures in Kenya.
I find your story stunningly to the point.
I find your stories stunningly to the point.
If one is going to risk a miscarriage, after all, might as well do it while having adventures in Kenya!
it was Ben Rhodes who brainwashed people with the sense of the inevitability of Obama, the hope and change nonsense….Goldman Sachs etc. owns this president. Dodd-Frank did zero to bring back Glass-Steagall and it did zero to find a way to somehow shred the derivatives debt time bomb… Under Obama, Wall Street has more privacy and you the citizen, have less…
As AFRICOM is activated, NATO AND US commandos went into Libya, and now Syria, to leave them to the tender mercies of a new IMF “deal” just more “austerity”….Obama has even sent about 200 US soldiers into Uganda (oil was recently discovered beneath Lake Victoria)…Renditions continues, and Gitmo remains open.
Obama also probably shipped unlawful voters into Iowa in 2008 from Illinois, the Chicago machine came through for him…a liberal democrat made a movie about this… The day after Obama was elected, he began filling his administration with Wall Street lobbyists….he says he saved GM, but wait, now 70% of their cars are made overseas… and Obama signed that law to slaughter all those wild horses too? He once was asked if he wanted an investigation into the Iraq war ( no wmd,remember?) His response? “Well, we dont look back”…
Have you seen how much the debt has increased since 2009, about the time Obama picked up his Nobel Peace prize for being black. or saying hes gonna do something about something down the road, or whatever it was he got the prize for…I guess launching drone attacks on children in Yemen or Pakistan merits a peace prize of some sort…Is it on Tuesdays that he drools over the kill lists? He takes pleasure in selecting the targets, that is what was “leaked” about three weeks ago….and do you know the real reason Reggie Love had to quit the White House?
Obama got caught running guns illegally to the Sinaloa drug cartel in Mexico, 250 people are dead, but thats OK you guys, its all good….The crimes of Obama are really too numerous to list here. Obama ,is a pig monster from below Hell and children will spit on him one day, This site is just creepy, no one should be defending Obama or his Marie Antoinette style wife…
Glenn Beck probably raped and murdered a girl.
When did Michelle Obama ever say, « Qu’ils mangent de la brioche » ?
Intrade has Obama at 57.9%. I hope it makes you miserable.
You know, I love waking up in the morning knowing that I’m not Dave.
Do you have a point in there? Did you miss that this is about eligibility? You live a vary fearful life and I feel sorry for you.
http://www.sadtrombone.com/
So Dave, tell us what YOU would be able to do if YOU were president to “magically” change the world…
…because in your mind, it is all SO simple, now isn’t it…?
You are a child. You simply like to whine and cry like a baby, but you have no actual realistic suggestions or solutions to the worlds problems.
The sheer complexity of reality and geopolitics is clearly beyond the ability of your simplistic child-like mind to grasp…
It does not sound like Dave would have voted for George Bush. Either of them.
[eyeroll] none of this fevered hallucinating has anything to do with eligibility. even if true [not], it only shows that obama’s a bad president, but not an ineligible one. i’m pretty confident [betting the farm] that you’ve only proven your pharmaceuticals need to be adjusted by a professional.
One of the basic motives of conspiracy believers – the fear of forces they cannot control, transformed into the notion that everything can be controlled, therefore everything is being controlled, therefore there must be some people who have virtually unlimited power. Which, ultimately, boils down to the belief that the conspiracy believer (or someone benevolent to him) will eventually be able to harness all that power to make everything go his way. Delusions of grandeur, god complex, …
Excellent points!!! I agree. Always glad to hear from you here and at Patrick’s place!
Brioche? Michelle? Never. Way too much fat and processed carbs. “Qu’ils manges des carottes”.
Dave:
“Masked men carve ‘dyke’ into lesbian woman, then set house on fire”
That’s who you are.
“No one should ever have to live in fear simply because of who they are. Our thoughts are with the victim and we wish her a full recovery.”
That’s who we are.
Any questions?
Is that what he was doing? He told me he just wanted to come in for a couple of hours and chat with me about Herbalife.
It was Ben Rhodes who brainwashed people
I thought it was Ben Dover.
Thanks for once again proving that, when given enough time, the racism of birthers inevitably shows its face. .
Dave is a cretin. A pure, unadulterated, 100% cretin.
We have cretins here in France, in abundance, but they tend to be just plain stupid. Like village idiots. As for our lunatic fringe they’re usually smarter. I have to say I have rarely seen such a combination of lunacy and cretinery (if I may coin a word) than Dave’s.
I look at him as I once looked at the Leaning Tower of Pisa, in awe that it (he) still stands upright and not collapse under the weight, in this case, of his sheer cretin quotient.
I’m among those who don’t think Obama should have been given the Nobel Prize, but I am 1000% positive that he didn’t get it by being black. (Arguably, he got it for not being a cretin, like his predecessor.)
BTW poor Marie-Antoinette never said “Let them eat cakes”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake
I believe that Doc C. has conclusively shown that Code 9 for race meant “other non-white” in 1961.
As for the “kind of business or industry” code, the redacted birth certificate produced by Jerome Corsi proves that the occupation codes and the race codes had different numbers. In the redacted birth certificate, the codes for mother’s race, father’s race and
“kind of business or industry” are all the numeral “3.” In 1961 the race code “3” meant American Indian. We do not know what code “3” for “kind of business or industry” meant, but clearly it was not “American Indian.”
http://rcradioshow.blogspot.com/2011/10/jerome-corsi-paul-irey-and-lucas-smith.html
Therefore, we do not need to know the other codes for 1961 to recognize that there is nothing at all unusual about the code for race and the code for “kind of business or industry” having the same number. Different fields on the birth certificate had different codes. It’s that simple.
I know, but it makes a good story.
Who am I to break the meme? – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
Doc C referenced the instructions for coding the 1962 Kenyan census, on which the racial category of “African” was clearly noted. I found a link to a 1966 paper that summarized the results of census in Kenya, Uganda, Tanganyika, and Zanzibar by the British colonial authorities in the late `1950s and early 1960s.
http://opendocs.ids.ac.uk/opendocs/bitstream/handle/123456789/353/dp18-317655.pdf?sequence=1
This is DR. C.’s position as I understand it, unless it has been modified since:
Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 7:18 pm (Quote) #
The 1961 code table I presented is the federal coding table. It now appears possible neither the 1961 federal table, nor the faux 1961 table from the Cold Case Posse is what Hawaii used for its internal coding.
One can argue about what the correct codes were and which coding system applies. New evidence may cause one to change their opinion. What is out of bounds is lying about the source material available.
Charo, one of the reasons I conclude that the break between Ann and Barack (Sr) took place after the birth certificate was filled out is that Ann signed a form that gave the name of the baby as BHO II. He had enough influence or she had enough respect at that point to pass on the name. If the break had already taken place, she would have named the baby “Stanley” or “Maddy” or “Jake” or “Anthony” or something else.
It’s difficult to say for sure how the mind of a woman who just gave birth would have worked, especially if she was angry. The dynamics are not known, but I am not etching any position in stone. Would two different spellings of the name Barak versus Barack have any significance in his culture? Thanks in advance. I start to get very uncomfortable when talking in the abstract because as you may have witnessed, not every one has the same measured responses as you. Inside, you may be thinking “That Charo! The brains of an amoeba…” but you certainly have exercised considerable restraint if you do.
Outside the area of my expertise.
When Whatever4 said (and I paraphrase loosely) “Back off, guys”, it bought you a lot of space.
Regardless, the fact remains that the redacted birth certificate produced by Corsi demonstrates that is was not unusual for both the “race of father” box and the “kind of business or industry” box to be coded with the same number. What the CCP claims to be an anomaly is in fact nothing out of the ordinary.
And, as our new friend American Mzungu has noted, it would be expected that a Kenyan would give his race as “African.”
What is obvious that different fields on the birth certificate used different sets of codes.
The “coder” would be the one who would make the call as to how to code that answer.
One would think so, but there was an accusation once that I was playing the victim so to speak when the same issue arose. Anyways, I brought up the question of “Barak” versus “Barack” because I had raised it before when I saw that Senior’s name was spelled “Barak” on an article he wrote. There was some discussion on that, but I thought maybe you would have some insight as to why there may be two spellings of the name.
Which means they could could both be unstated? If the father’s name was unstated, wouldn’t it make sense for his industry to be so? I think the objective of Dr.C’s post was to show that the Codes used on the form seems to prove that another internal manual was used, not the federal one or the “faux” one (to use DR.C’s term). The reason is that code 3 for race shows an race identifier that would not likely match what was redacted for either what he (Dr. C) presented or what the press video showed. Reread the latest post and tell me what you think, if you want.
And given the available options, the most likely choice would be “other non-white.” But it really doesn’t matter. What the CCP presented as an anomaly is not an anomaly, so the fact that box 9 is coded “9” casts no suspicion whatsoever on the authenticity of the document.
It also is worth pointing out the the boxes for “Is Residence on a Farm or Plantation?” (box 7g) and birthplace of father (box 11) are both coded “2.” Should we infer from this that code “2” means the same thing wherever it appears? Of course not. In fact, it can’t possibly mean the same thing wherever it appears.
I don’t see what charo is wittering about. What impact would some new list of codes used in 1961 have – Hawaii have said the information on the LFBC is correct, so there it is. Absent some major evidence of conspiracy etc, the LFBC stands.
Sorry charo – but what is your problem?????
Same with the Nordyke’s.
For what it is worth. His headstone reads “Barack”.
Thx
“blessed”
– Hebrew: baruch – ברוך
– Arabic: barak, or barack
Different transliterations.
Except that they are not both unstated. If you look at the birth certificate, it is clear that the redactions in boxes 9 and 11 take up more space than the word :unstated: would have required. Furthermore, the space taken up by the redaction in box 12b takes up noticeably less space than the redactions in boxes 9 and 11. Whatever was written in Box 12b is not the same as was written in boxes 9 and 11.
From the Africans I knew from that period and from some reading about Obama (Sr.), I am confident that he would have INSISTED on being called an African. Had a hypothetical nurse at the hospital been taking down information from both Barack and Ann, and said, “Don’t you mean Negro?”, there would have been “words”. Probably a 10 minute lecture by Barack. I think the best way to appreciate the unstated mind-set on this subject was that “Negro” was one of the tribes in the greater “African” race. Just another ethnic tribe, with separate language and culture. For an American to attempt to reverse this grouping—“African” is just a subset of “Negro”—would really grate on the nerves of Obama and his Kenyan contemporaries.. Especially in the Hawaiian context (as it has been explained to me), he could (and therefore would) insist on his “African” identity. There were Kenyans in other places, especially in the South, that would have learned to shut their mouth when the consequences would be severe. In 1961 there were many states in which is would have been illegal for Obama to marry Dunham. I can easily imagine scenarios that would be grave.
To elaborate further. Obama and his Kenyan contemporaries would have laughed if someone called them “colored”, which is easy to imagine happening in the U.S.. For Kenyans, the term “coloured” or “colored” applied to a racial group in South Africa that was the product of racial blending. They had a separate identity, culture, and political/economic niche in South Africa.
They would laughed even harder if someone called them “Afrikaans” or “Afrikaaners.” Those are terms associated with the Boers, descended from Dutch settlers. Not synonymous with “white”. There was another group of “white” people that were “British”. It gets even more complicated.
Please note that Doc C says the current code for racial coding in the U.S. is 31 pages long. It doesn’t include “African” as one of the choices, that I could see. As Charo said so well, it would be up to the coder to make an assignment into some category.
I was talking about the Obama certificate. Anyways, I have nothing new to add.
Thx
I may have mistyped somewhere, “African” is in the current table.
200 Black Checkbox
201 Black
202 African
203 African American
204 AfroAmerican
205 Nigritian
206 Negro
207 Bahamian
208 Barbadian
209 Botswana
213 Ethiopian
214 Haitian
215 Jamaican
216 Liberian
218 Namibian
219 Nigerian
220 Other African
222 Tobago
223 Trinidad
224 West Indies
225 Zaire
226 ERITREAN
227 TOGOLESE
228 SOMALIAN
299 Multiple BLACK or AFRICAN AMERICAN responses
Thanks. I skimmed 31 pages too quickly.
Your attention to detail admirable. I hope Mrs. Conspiracy think so too, also.
For all those who know a bit of Russian, the Russian version has an extra chapter at the end about present usage that could come straight from Pravda Online (someone put up an “unverified” sign years ago, but it was quietly deleted)! Funny thing, it is about how the rich can save money on … trips to Hawaii! If you cannot go to Hawaii twice a year for three days, just go once for seven days. And fly at night because kerosine is cheaper then.
Lupin,, is Alain Soral not to your liking?
A healthy nationalism is the antidote. to bankster globalization.
You guys need to abandon the puppets of international finance.- Romney, Obama, etc.
Responses here to my posts display an infantilism that is breathtaking..
You can lead a horse to water…..
Gee Dave, how many more made up conclusions that have NO connection to reality can you come up with?
NOBODY here is talking in support of “bankster globalization” at all.
In fact, if you actually asked, I guarantee you that nearly all the posters here are AGAINST the abusive practices of the Wall Street Robber Barons and their ilk across the globe.
But unlike your simplistic child-like mentality, WE understand the SAD reality of how entrenched massive corporate money interests are in influencing legislation, power and control within ALL layers of the government. The nearly unfettered influence of industry lobbyists have been an issue of concern for decades.
YES, these are problems. YES, we don’t like it. But none of your infantile rants do anything to actually impact or fix those abuses within the system. Instead, the real world is just TOO COMPLEX for your feeble mind to deal with, so you simply point the finger and whine that leaders are “puppets”.
When in reality, if YOU or ANYONE got elected to President or Congress, you too would find it extremely difficult to effectively change the system and get anything done, without being constrained by these powerful influences to a vast extent, especially if you are TRYING to find ways to REDUCE their influence…
Welcome to the frustrating challenges of reality. Corruption is NOT easy to combat or fix. But hey, simpletons like you call that being “puppets”…which would make YOU and everyone else just as much of a “puppet”…to the point where your analogy is actually meaningless and impotent.
Highly implausible, considering that Obama’s LFBC lists the races of his parents as “African” and “caucasian.” If Barack Obama Sr.’s race was not stated, how did the word “African” get on the birth certificate?
Occam’s Razor tells us that this is the most likely scenario:
When the birth certificate was being filled out, information was provided that the father was African and that he was born in Kenya. Whoever entered the codes looked at that information and concluded that the proper category for race was “other non-white” and entered the code 9 (it is at the very least highly probable that in 1961 the code 9 meant “other non-white).
American Mzungu tells us that Obama’s father would have vehemently rejected any other racial designation, be it “negro” or “colored” or whatever. Birthers have from the beginning claimed that the designation “African” for race was suspicious, but we now know that any other designation would be suspicious. The fact that both the COLB and the LFBC show “African” as the father’s race actually supports the authenticity of those documents.
. . . but you can only make him a birther if you take away his horse sense.
Charo, I want you to consider one very large detail in all this talk about form coding, whether his father would have identified as African, etc. Consider what is missing. There is absolutely no evidence that the President was born anywhere else. Think about that. All their theories and accusations of the President has absolutely no proof to back it up. So, what are they doing? Misdirection. And see how you’re reacting to it? Questioning every little detail without looking at the big picture. Why would an 18-year-old girl, first time pregnant, with no obvious monetary means leave her family, her husband, her friends to go halfway around world to have her first baby in a 3rd world country and no support mechanisms? But, even more importantly, how could she when the innoculations she would have been required would be bad for the fetus and pregnant women were not allowed to fly after 7-8 months of pregnancy. Think about it…the alternative to the President being born in Hawaii is a trip that makes absolutely no sense, couldn’t be done because of medical requirements, and has no evidence that it ever happened.
Not a popular tool among the birthers, I observe.
By the way — is anyone else getting italicized headers, on this post only, starting with a response of mine? If so, I feel special.
I go about it a different way. The State of Hawaii says he was born there. That’s who, in this country, we assign the task of keeping track of such things. Upon being elected he was approved by the Electoral College and no member of Congress objected. That’s who we assign the task of checking out the President. My party controls the House, and while it has found the time to vote to repeal Obamacare about 33 times, it has yet to find a single minute to vote to impeach the President for being unqualified. (If they did so, Republican chances in November would sag. To put it charitably.)
Yes, now that you mention it. Starting with your 11/24 11:02am post.
Threads are very long here, and my part of the discussion did not focus on trying to prove that. I am not going to rehash the whole coding subject. There was some very good analysis quite recently on the birth in Africa saga by a gentleman named American Mzungo. He also agreed that it depends on the mindset of the coder as to how the coding was done. I don’t remember where the comments were to direct you to them. If it weren’t for the exchanges I had with him, I would completely regret that I ever saw this site.
It would take a Professor Picard to plumb the depths of your idiocy.
For others, Alain Soral is one of those Pythonesque, eccentric French “intellectuals” who was a member of the Communist Party, then split & joined the National Front, then split again to start his own “movement.” (to quote LIFE OF BRIAN: “splitter!”)
Weirdly for Dave he is kind of pro-Arab / anti-Zionist, and generally anti-American (as well as anti-freemasons).
Like a broken clock he is (arguably & depending on your POV) occasionally right, but utterly irrelevant.
And doubly and triply irrelevant to the entire Obama matter.
I rather like the look. However, I think our culprit Thomas who forgot to close his italics code.
Enough. Save your passive-aggressive little digs for your husband, Charo. Your professional nit-picking I can take, but these catty finales are stupidly tweenish.
I appreciate your comment directed at me (and the comments of many others above). I think your comments/questions helped me focus my participation, and for that I thank you. Even if you didn’t enjoy some of the comments directed at you by other members of the board, I think you helped move things forward. My wife was really against my participating—“it’s a waste of your time and there’s so much to do around here”—but she finally saw some justification for the time I spent when she saw some of the responses to my posts.
American Mzungu:
you are a jewel and your participation is greatly appreciated – i understand your wife’s objections but, seriously, your perspective is for the common good now – “so much to do around here” will be there tomorrow
Funny, how African can not be construed as negro. The coder probably thought to himself, “if only this box had said, ‘African-African’ could I mark #2 for negro, guess they could be Euro-African, too. So, I better mark #9 for other.”
What if the box had said, “European”. Would the coder have penciled in 1 or 9?
You are misunderstanding the use of the term “negro” in this context. It does NOT refer simply to the color of skin.
Within proper context, It is a specific term for African-Americans, born IN America. NOT for people born elsewhere. Africa is a separate continent and therefore, someone born in Africa is NOT within that proper application of the term “negro”.
Mojo,
To clarify, when the child is born and the forms are filled in, then as now the parents SELF-IDENTIFY their race.
The staff make no assumptions, they do not make judgement calls and when the BC is being created the creators were never at the birth and never met the parents.
That is why we have examples of BC’s with the “race” filed filled in with Japanese, Chinese, Polish etc.
As such the HDoH folks will make an informed guess as to the “correct” race.
BHO Senior having been born and brought up Africa would have identified himself in the exact same manner as he would be identified in the identical type of forms in Africa.
As is on the site, there is an example of the census form for (the country that became Kenya) where the form of identification was AFRICAN.
In point of fact, the HDoH made a particularly wild assed guess that the father was in fact “Other…Non-White” as he could equally have been an Afrikaaner and would have beaten the cack out of someone who identified him as non white.
As such, BHO Senior would NEVER have identified himself as a purely US and racially derived category of “Negro”.
Let’s step back a minute and reflect on why the state of Hawaii and the government of the United States wanted statistical information about births. (Help me out here, Doc C—your the guru on the methodology of gathering statistics by government agencies.) They want information about groups that might have some relevance to governing. It has nothing to do with racial “science”; it has to do with politics. Same with census. Or death statistics. That’s why the “racial” categories are quite different from polity to polity. As I pointed out, there was no racial categories on the 1961 coding forms in the U.S. that matched the coding forms in East Africa in 1961.
Coding “African” as “Negro” would give the government misleading information. Coding “European” as “white” would provide misleading information. When you are dealing with rare exceptions across cultures, the most likely coding would be “other”. If there are enough members or the government has political reasons for identifying populations for some reason, they expand the coding categories in the future. I would imagine that computers have also made the handling of data of many categories possible and manageable.
So, I don’t know for sure how “European”, or “Asian”, or “Arab” would have been coded in Hawaii in 1961. We had a lot of fun in East Africa speculating whether an American “Negro” would have been classified as “African” or “European”, but I don’t think I ever had a definitive answer. I seem to remember stories that some Japanese businessmen in East Africa wanted to be classified as “Europeans” rather than “Asian”. It had a lot to do with how you got treated in a colonial society, so it was important to the relatively few people involved in the classification controvery.
How Hawaii and the U.S. extracted information for statistical purposes—how they coded the information on the birth certificate—is really a separate question from how the information on the form was expressed. I’m absolutely certain that “African” is how Mr. or Mrs. Obama would have responded and how it got put down on the birth certificate. The best information we have from the 1961 code that Doc C obtained that answer was coded as “other non-white”, for government statistical purposes.
I am trying to figure out why the designation of race matters and how it argues either for or against forgery. The birthers say (if I understand correctly) that “negro” was the most common term in the US in 1961. That may well be true, but wouldn’t a forger know that? So wouldn’t the box saying “negro” be evidence of forgery then? But then the birthers say, “No, this brilliant forger was a dolt. He used the 2011 term.” OK, but most black people in the US in 2011 would either use “African-American” or “Black”. Only a very small minority of US-born blacks, even today, would call themselves “Africans”. But people from Africa would. Then and now.
It seems to me the birthers want to consider the following in the box as evidence of forgery:
African
Negro
Black
African-American
Unstated
They would also consider the block left blank as evidence of forgery. Also if someone spilled coffee on the form. Also if someone didn’t spill coffee on the form.
The simple fact is that the information on the form matches the information Hawaii has on file. They could have printed the b.c. on the back of a uused napkin from McDonalds and that fact would remain.
American Mzungu: Let’s step back a minute and reflect on why the state of Hawaii and the government of the United States wanted statistical information about births.
from what i have read (and my limited understanding), ethnic Hawaiians receive race-based benefits from more than 160 federally funded programs, numerous state-funded programs, and numerous private race-based institutions.
Approximately 20% of Hawaii’s people have at least one drop of Hawaiian native blood; i.e., at least one ancestor (probably of Tahitian heritage) who lived in Hawaii before Captain Cook’s arrival in 1778. Nearly all ethnic Hawaiians are of mixed race; and perhaps 3/4 of them have less than 1/4 Hawaiian native blood. Nevertheless, many ethnic Hawaiians (including those with very low native blood quantum) choose to identify themselves solely as “Native Hawaiian” as a matter of racial pride.
Many of the institutions providing race-based benefits (especially Kamehameha Schools) ask their beneficiaries to answer only “Native Hawaiian” when responding to government or opinion surveys, on the theory that in the future the government might be more inclined to give benefits to a group with greater racial purity, or that benefits will be handed out in proportion to percentage of native blood quantum.
Let’s look at one example, which is statistically bizarre but illustrates what passes for normal in Hawaii’s racial spoils system. Suppose an unmarried mother has identified herself as 100% Filipino on a Census questionnaire. She has a son whose absent father is 5/8 Portuguese, 1/4 Japanese, and 1/8 Hawaiian. When she fills out the Census questionnaire for her son, she lists the boy’s race as “Native Hawaiian.” That’s all — only Native Hawaiian. Mom does that because she receives childcare money from Kamehameha Schools whose bureaucrat has explicitly told her to identify her son in that way. Mom is, in effect, stripping out her own 50% contribution to the baby’s identity, and also stripping out 7/8 of the father’s contribution, in order to make her son count statistically as “pure” native Hawaiian even though the boy has only 1/16 native blood. Even if a Census Bureau enumerator is personally interviewing Mom at her doorstep and filling out the form for her, the Census worker is forbidden from asking Mom to clarify her response, or asking whether the boy has any additional racial components. Census workers are trained to accept without question whatever racial identity is claimed, and not to probe more deeply.
there is much more on this link entitled “Race on birth certificates in Hawaii in 2009! The State of Hawaii requires birth certificates to list the races of the mother and father (if he is known). The state government backed down, at least a little bit, only after a federal civil rights lawsuit was filed by parents demanding issuance of a race-free certificate.”
http://www.angelfire.com/big09a/BirthCertificatesRaceRequired.html
i know this has nothing to do with “african” but, in hawaii, it has everything to do with ethnicity and benefits – if obama’s father had “one drop” of hawaiian blood, we would have had a different conversation – was he really hawaiian or mostly x, y or z”?
todd palin is an alaska native and his entire family receives affirmative action benefits (including free healthcare) due to his status
You’re forgetting that the birth certificate says that Obama’s father was African AND that he was born in Kenya. I believe that it is safe to say that the registrar knew that a white male born in Kenya would not be likely to list his race as “African.”
In addition, we know that births of black babies were quite rare in Honolulu in 1961. It is quite possible that the story of Obama’s birth had been bandied about in the hospital and that the registrar already knew that his father was a black African.
G, you seem to actually believe that Obama is somehow in opposition to the owners of the nation, which is just foolishness.
Rejecting the front men and parties of the international bankers is just a starting point, not the end goal. Everyone knows that.
I see a moral equivalence in supporting Obama and and supporting Pol Pot or Stalin…millions slaughtered and the future ruined, nations wrecked, a burning world our inheritance.
Off topic and asinine spam alert.
You left out H*itler. (asterisk inserted to avoid moderation)
Use “Adolf Schicklgruber.” It’s his real surname.
I think all Birthers do….visions of race wars dancing before their eyes….
And yet you have survived. I find that VERY suspicious,
Dave is a poltergeist. Easily explained.
Yes, but would Dave know that?
He got better.
Minus the “millions slaughtered and the future ruined, nations wrecked, a burning world our inheritance”, you mean…
In other words, they are nothing alike, except in your fevered delusions.
Again, you think like a lazy and simplistic child.
While the policies he is pursuing are still very much in support of the capitalist parts of our economic infrastructure, he has still been pushing for improvements WITHIN the system. Of course, pure greed will fight tooth and nail against having to give anything back. So, the end solutions he pushes for are still very much in favor of business overall, just NOT as completely in favor and unregulated as the purely greedy folks of big business would ideally like.
Hence, THEY oppose him. But you complain because you want the entire system simply overthrown in one fell swoop. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. That is so fantastically unrealistic, without requiring a massive and very deadly disaster to precipitate it, that the entire notion of it is an irresponsible folly of the weak mind.
Obama and many other politicians are trying to improve the system. That will require incremental and small gains and is the only realistic and pragmatic way to get it done, within the very real constraints of the system. Yet they get thwarted not only by the lobbyists and their political opponents, but also by irresponsible and unrealistic fanatic simpletons, such as you.
I have no interest in your political opinions. This blog is about birthers, not Obama’s job performance. I’m putting you in moderation.
I am closing this thread because it is too long. Pick one of the other Cold Case Posse articles that are active.