Dr. Taitz left a message and I called her. She was prompted to contact me because of an email from someone that pointed her to my article: “White House birth certificate: not identical to original.” She had questions about what I wrote. We talked for over an hour on a wide range of topics. It was interesting. A lot of what she said you can find in her writing and I won’t go into details about the conversation which I consider private anyway. It was civil and she was rather eloquent in explaining why she feels the way she does.
For my part, I agreed that I have no objection if Obama choses to release additional documents. That’s his decision. I personally don’t doubt his credentials, but it’s not my affair.
We both agreed that a “document on the Internet is not proof.” It may be a picture of proof, but it’s not proof.
I confess that I said, after being interrupted, “let me finish” twice.
Congrats, Doc. Now you can expect to be subpoenaed as an expert witness every time Orly files a brief.
Does it wash off?
I suspect that you will wind up regretting both the article that prompted the conversation and the conversation itself. Taitz doesn’t understand subtlety or satire. She also doesn’t understand human decency, logic, or reason. I think your name will show up in one of her pleadings some day soon as evidence that “even Obots admit Obama’s BC is forged.”
Orly poster receives some shocking news:
That comment better fits my participation at ObamaReleaseYourRecords.
I actually met Orly Taitz when she’s was in GA with Judge Land. I got a nice pic of me standing next her. I still have the pic. I really admire Orly’s tenacity and courage. I wish there were more like her. I think Orly needs to work on her litgation skills but Orly Taitz has what few good people have – Intestinal Fortitude. Orly Taitz is my Joan Of Arc. It was crying shame the treatment she got from Judge England. Orly Taitz is really like a Female Thurgood Marshall.
It was with some hesitation that I placed the call, but I am certainly glad I did. Dialog is rarely a mistake, and one that ended on cordially (even if not with agreement) I would count a success.
FIFY
Her world view is colored by her upbringing in the Soviet Union, where the government really was corrupt at every level, and the courts were a sham.
I studied for almost 3 years under a Soviet emigre and dedicated anti-Communist, so I know a few anecdotes of Soviet corruption., but I cannot really put myself in her shoes.
Just what I thought!
Is there a problem with that?
To the extent that Joan of Arc may have been delusional, you might be correct. But Thurgood Marshall? Do you think he ever misspelled his own name in a court filing? Do you think he ever lied to judges in open court? Do you think he ever submitted motions without citing a single case or statute? Do you think he ever advocated for the execution of judges and other officials who ruled against him? Do you think he ever asked electors and politicians to stipulate that they may be committing treason if they vote to certify election results? Do you think that he ever referred to dead children as collateral damage? Do you think he ever filed a case in the wrong court, citing the wrong statute, suing the wrong people, at the wrong time? Do you think a judge ever suggested that he look up the definition of the word ‘evidence.’ All these signs of birfoonery and inhumanity apply to Taitz.
What you refer to as intestinal fortitude could be also be characterized as pathological obsession. I think she’s a despicable POS, but she’s also clearly very mentally ill.
Except Marshall won his cases.
John: Orly needs to work on her litgation skills
why have no RESPECTED attorneys come forward to represent the birthers?
if this were a legitimate issue, one would think they would be banging down the door
Free travel, front seats at hearings where you don’t ever have to do anything, sounds like a retiree’s dream.
Had any of the snark in the article sunk in?
She is tenacious but not courageous. Courage requires an ability to look at facts that differ from perception. She has allowed her past to so distort facts. We all can do that but at some point we have to step away from our own experiences.She has failed to do this. I would ask her if Linda Lingle and her officials lied and why? Did the genealogists from the Mormon church fail miserably when they completed a complete record of the Presidents family history? And then she claims this cabal submitted a bad forgery.Really? I could go on and on. And then when facts do not suit reality she fits them into her own reality. The reason the doc can speak truthfully is because he understands reality. I firmly accept the facts that tell me Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii and is eligible to be President. She is tenacious and delusional not tenacious and courageous.
I am really bad at seeing snark. My family thinks the condition incurable.
Courage also requires an ability to admit you’re wrong.
I called her in January 2010, and had a similar, cordial conversation.
BUT, the fact of the matter is, she lies, she blows things up into stuff they are not, and she’s clearly a racist at her core.
The sole place for the stinking WH piuk to air his lies is in a court of law with a jury that can pass judgment on his sorry drug loaded a??. It is a serious crime against American rights to have a perpetrator get away with the evil now in progress in American’s government.
There would be no problem with having any kind of president as POTUS if there are no problems with their past behaviors or associations. Goldwater, McCain, and many other POTUS candidates had to face the music on their qualifications…and in fact Barbara Boxer stopped the Congressional electors process in the past. What’s the problem with this WH piuk having to face music? He needs to face the jury because he has one hell of a lot of explaining to do about forged documents. No one really knows how old that critter is supposed to be. OH! yep… there’s a phony birth certificate, isn’t there? Anyone from Missouri that believes the PIUK isn’t true to the Missouri principles of old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxB0FlYayGA
The minimum that should occur to avenge the American people is that “every” fed rep be removed for not doing what their sworn oaths says for them to do.
TAKE THE (#**$$( ISSUE TO COURT AND BRING PEACE TO AMERICANS.
I knew a fellow who was a pathological liar, but otherwise he was a excellent fellow, highly ethical, a hard worker and a fine family man. Probably everybody in my home down in 1954 was a racist more or less. We are not solely defined by our worst characteristics.
Hi, and a Happy New Year to you too!
I don’t think so. She was most interested in MRC compression.
Regular readers here probably recognized the article as a follow-up to my remarks on the Hawaiian Verifications that argued that Hawaii officials cannot declare a document identical because of the requirements of the statute. This article was to say that they cannot declare a document identical because it isn’t identical, but that’s normal.
Doc, since you didn’t post more on the conversation, I want to check one statement Orly made about you:
“I will only mention that he agreed that the way I was attacked and called names, the way some individuals were painting nude pornographic paintigs of me in order to assaaainate me as a human being was inappropriate and this should not have been done. He blaimed people running fogbow.”
Did you really say that Foggy was the issue?
And here ya go, Doc!
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=374579
When we make no attempt to rise above our worst characteristics, we most certainly deserve to be defined by them.
I bet he didn’t, and like I said above, she lies and blows things up into something they are not.
Dr. C, sometimes an evil, lying, racist witch is an evil, lying,racist witch. And please don’t think you can get her to take back her lie or apologize. She won’t.
“a leader of the Obama technical defense on the internet for 4 years”
LOLOL
Wow. I’m surprised you so easily fell into her web. Given what you know about her, a really poor decision. And the proof is how she has spun your conversation with her.
That, and he was a competent lawyer. And I don’t think he was batshit insane, either.
We deserve the consequences, we deserve to be held to those characteristics, but not to be defined by them. At any rate, such definition damages us, the definers, more than the definees. Such definition itself, in my view, is also one of humanity’s worst characteristics.
I read it. The woman is delusional and will always fit things into her reality. In childhood I had a close relative who did that. This person would pick out facts a, c and d from a story and leave out b and e. The story was never the same. It was all rather confusing. I don’t think it was wrong to speak and be civil. It is uncecessary to adapt a form of discourse that is taunting even when deserved. In the northwest children learn this saying, “It’s nice to be important but it is more importand to be nice.” I would translate the final nice to civil.
Not for us. Maybe for you. You now probably have an honored place on the most insane email spam list in the world.
It doesn’t reflect poorly upon Dr. C.
I didn’t have to read very far into Orly’s interpretation of your comments to realize that she was subtly and slyly twisting their meaning.
Doc C. “I agreed that I have no objection if Obama chooses to release additional documents.”
Orly “……..he believes that the original documents should be produced.”
SluggoJD nailed it. She’s an evil, lying, racist witch.
Orly sez
“He blaimed people running fogbow.
I believe he wants to distance himself from unscrupulous characters and he wants the truth to come out.”
I doubt that any of that is true.
Did you notice she put that in the past tense? That indicates she really takes teh article as a confession or change of position of sorts. Like Doc has pitched in the towel, dropped a pretension. Oh, brudder….
There it is, that is indeed how the story appears once run the the warped filter of Orly’s mind. Doc has thrown in the towel on the PDF madness front. (That is quite a title for Doc, BTW!)
Including making allegations of forgery?
I am quite certain that Doc never stated that. Equally certain that Orly “heard” it nevertheless.
Kris: “I didn’t have to read very far into Orly’s interpretation” to conclude that SHE didn’t write that “interpretation”
She is still hung up on the halos. She states all experts state halos indicate forgery. She asks why other scans don’t have halos. She is ignorant of the variety of formats and process in digital imaging, and is having her ignorance reinforced by the ignorant.
It’s an ever changing field. Look, an article on efforts to add pre/post processing steps to MRC compression processes to reduce halos created by soft edges…such as found around typewritten characters scanned at relatively high resolution.
http://electronicimaging.spiedigitallibrary.org/article.aspx?articleid=1166320
What the hell is a piuk?
Move FMs for great justice.
That still puts her miles ahead of her flying monkey squad who are still hung up on the letters being kerned, when everyone knows that typewriters don’t kern letters. Even though it’s been stated dozens of times that these are all electronic copies, her loyal followers have yet to grasp what that means.
Really? Please identify the “many other” candidates who had their eligibility questioned. I am old enough to remember the 1964 campaign, and no one seriously questioned Goldwater’s qualifications. McCain faced ONE lawsuit over his eligibility, which was quickly dismissed.
And Boxer’s objection in 2005 had nothing to do with eligibility or qualifications.
Absolutely! Be sure to let us know how that works out for you.
Good for you Doc. Nothing wrong with having a civil conversation with anyone.
With the Congress certifying the results of the Electoral College with virtually no objections, even Ms.Taitz will soon recognize the writing on the wall – just like WND has done. My prediction is that within six months she will have moved on to some other conspiracy to obsess about.
For Joseph Farrah, all this birther stuff was good for was selling books and other trinkets to keep his WhirledNutDilly.com “empire” alive. For Orly, it’s all about holding on to a crazy well-entrenched unshakeable belief – a type of personal dysfunction that is actually quite common among human beings.
cheers!
It’s an organization of professional investigators in the UK. And an uncommon last name. And apparently the latest witty acronym to bubble up from the winger cesspools …. ?
Wait, no, it’s an alternate for ‘puke’ … an onomatopoeia, as in ‘pee-yuke’. Charming!
– – I’m going back to May – believe it was the 22rd – that SOS of Arizona, Bennett, received Hawaii’s ‘verification’ of Obama’s birth. In case any of you are interested – – –
http://obamaballotchallenge.com/letters-to-az-sos-ken-bennett-on-illegally-placing-aka-obama-on-the-ballot
Dr. Conspiracy – wondering what your opinion is on Sheriff Arpaio and his ‘detective’ Zullo’s findings??? (I don’t have the time to check your past writings – thank you)
I am sure Dr. Conspiracy is ready to rebut the account that he said that members of The Fogbow “painted nude pornographic paintings” of Orly.
Dr. Conspiracy may have inadvertently let it slip that the people running The Fogbow were actually commissioned by the Vatican to re-paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel with images of Orly holding three cherubs resembling her three adult children.
Ah.
The first sentence is 100% accurate. In the second, what I noted was that people at my web site said nasty things about Orly, and that they did that even more so at the Fogbow. I do not believe in name calling and ridicule (except when I do it and then it’s OK).
I did not suggest any connection between the Lacey paintings and The Fogbow.
Here’s the site by Orly Taitz re: her conversation with Dr. Conspiracy –
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=374579
I hope Doc C. recorded his entire conversation with Orly.
Talking about things spinning out of control (I know we weren’t, but they are),
“Why didn’t you give Romney this information about pornographic paintings of you before the election? It would have destroyed Obama to be tied to pornographers! Can you stop the inauguration based on this new information?”
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=374579
I find that very hard to believe, after living here, most of it in a privileged class, after 20 + years.
I think she uses that schtick to her advantage.
I hope you have better luck than myself or anyone else I know who has actually had dialogue with Orly.
I have posted this comment on Orly’s site:
Let me clarify one point, in this otherwise reasonably accurate description of our conversation.
I do not hold with personal insults and ridicule as a way for decent people to address each other. Everyone gets angry sometimes, and I’m not immune to saying things I regret later. People on my blog sometimes say fairly nasty things about Orly Taitz, and commenters at the Fogbow do that even more. I don’t agree with that.
I was certainly offended by the Lacey nude paintings of Orly Taitz; however, I did not say, nor do I have any reason to believe, that anyone at the The Fogbow had any connection with those nude paintings.
One other clarification: I did not say that Obama’s PDF birth certificate file could not be used as evidence BECAUSE it has layers and the registrar stamp can be moved around in an image editing program. I say that it is not evidence because it is only a picture of a birth certificate, not the certificate itself. Only the certified copy of the birth certificate, lawfully issued by a jurisdiction and with the signature and seal of the issuer is legal evidence.
Of course not.
You don’t believe Orly thinks the US Government is corrupt? Maybe it comes from somewhere else than her Soviet experience, but I know from other Soviet emigres that THEY felt the Soviet government was corrupt.
Some frauds can be very convincing; I understand that. I think she intentionally lied to me twice during the conversation.
Why do you believe she has spun it?
Yes, Doc, I believe she believes the U.S. Government is corrupt. What I don’t believe is that that belief stems from her upbringing. And if the U.S. Government was as she portrays it, on a daily basis, she’d have been dealt with harshly long ago.
I am comfortable with my decision to talk to her.
A perfectly rational conclusion. What’s your point?
I am going to DIE laughing over here. My lungs hurt!
There were two out and out misrepresentations: That I associated The Fogbow with the Lacey paintings, and that “original documents should be produced.”
During the conversation, she said basically what she said on her blog about the Birth Certificate not being evidence because you could move stuff around, but she talked so much of the time that I didn’t have the chance to correct her. It was not evidence because it was a not a certified copy. Moving stuff around doesn’t matter.
But on the main points, she was accurate:
I don’t consider the birth certificate PDF legal evidence of citizenship. No one has tried to offer it as such.
I don’t like demeaning language and I thought the Lacey paintings inappropriate.
I have no objection to Obama releasing any document he wants, and that he should respond to a lawful court demand for documents.
More power to you, Doc, for having this conversation.
Now if the Republicans and Democrats could just follow your example, maybe this upcoming Congress could be held in higher esteem than the previous one. Hmm… that’s not setting a high bar. And, nah, ain’t gonna happen… sigh.
IANAL. But I saw this: “The Court may take judicial notice of information on government websites. See Fed. R. Evid. 201(b)(2) (allowing a court to take judicial notice of facts capable of accurate and ready determination by resort to sources whose accuracy cannot reasonably be questioned); Crawford v. Marion County Election Bd., 553 U.S. 181, 199 n.18 (2008) (taking judicial notice of information on government website)”
here:
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=8693&p=461212#p461212
BTW, I don’t find Orly ‘eloquent’ in the least.
She’s a liar and a horrible human being.
And when I think of all the people she sent her Flying Monkeys after, I find it hard to believe her soul isn’t just empty.
Recall how she sent people to Georgia to contact Obama’s elderly aunt and uncle? She even posted their address and phone number on her site.
They were only two of more than a few victims of Orly Taitz.
Doc C wrote:
Presumably, that was supposed to be “the PDF replication of the birth certificate”
As if to prove my point, Orly posts:
“I STILL NEED TO FIND THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE FATHER OF TYRONE WOODS, MARINE THAT WAS KILLED IN BENGHAZI, THE NUMBER THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME,WAS A WRONG NUMBER”
She’s done the same thing to people she accuses of “threatening” her, never actually pinning down the real person but just throwing out similar names, with addresses and phone numbers so her FMs can harass them or, even better, report them to the police for her.
For someone who claims to have escaped from a police state, she certainly seems to miss it and would love to see it replicated here.
A truly despicable human being on all levels, and potentially a very dangerous one too
I still don’t think Orly– or any birther– really understands what Doc (and the rest of us) have said about the BC pdf.
Imagine a near-perfect electronic image of a certified physical copy of any BC. High-res, perfect lighting, no processing, etc. So good it looks absolutely identical to the certified paper copy.
It would still be worthless legally.
You couldn’t get a driver’s license, passport, security clearance, etc. by presenting it, either on a screen or printed onto paper. THAT is the only sense in which Doc’s statement (and the tongue-in-cheek title of his article) is meant.
But again, one of the main disconnects between birthers and obots is in evidence: obots have a good grasp of sarcasm & satirical humor, and birthers do not. That’s why when we say George Soros is paying us, obots immediately get the joke, but a birther might say “See! I knew it!”
Quite the pickle.
I don’t know about her. I myself do know many Polish people in particular who do carry over their upbringing/experience with communism/corruption when they come here. I also see a similar carryover affect (different situations) with some Muslim and Israeli friends. It happens.
Doctor Taitz never sent anyone to Georgia to contact any of Obama’s family, none have ever resided there. Talk about a liar! [Personal insults removed. Doc]
Lumi,
Welcome to this blog. I can tell you’re angry, but your anger doesn’t change the simple fact that Barack Obama is a natural born citizen of the United States and has been legally elected president, twice. All the ranting in the world won’t change that, but go ahead and rant if it makes you feel better.
All that helps.
You are proving Doc C’s points as laid out in his Obot FAQ article.
Now THAT’S a mad!
I’d buy that if she had only been here for a few years but she’s enjoyed the privileges of life in the U.S. for the last 25 years. She’s lived here longer than she did in the Soviet Union. Her ridiculous lies about the U.S. being comparable to Nazi Germany and the former Soviet Union are an insult to all those people who wish to immigrate to our country and remain on a waiting list while she denigrates the country who allowed her to live her without delay simply because she married someone living in the U.S.
She speaks openly about revolution and allows the same type of comments on her forum, suggesting that the only way to change things in our government is with violence. She lets them through and then tries to innocently claim that “as an attorney, I cannot condone violence”. Why let them through? She usually denies anyone who tries to rationalize with her the ability to post. She only lets through extreme posts about herself in order to try to gain sympathy from her FM’s.
As for anyone saying something nasty about Taitz, her hypocrisy is overwhelming because she gives as good as she gets. In many cases, she spews such horrible things that I’m astounded that she has retained her license to practice law. She openly equates a judge who rules against her as being guilty of treason and worthy of the death penalty. I think that possibly someone might have actually put the fear of God or the Secret Service into her because I notice that those threats about hanging judges and others complicit with treason and forgery have all but disappeared from her rhetoric.
She’s attacked hosts who try to interview her before they’ve even said a word, calling them liars, brownshirts, etc. Orly Tatiz deserves no sympathy for anything said about her considering her horrific treatment of President Obama’s deceased parents and grandparents. I can’t even begin to recite all the terribly ignorant things she has said about them. Yet she whines if anyone dares to say a word about her, pretending she has little children at home to care for and defend. She’s a con artist, Doc. She deserves to be deported for her behavior. Just thinking about what she’s done and said gets my blood pressure boiling. Kudos to Judge England and other Judges for containing their anger, considering the accused them of treason and lying to their face. They have far more patience than I ever could in the situations they have faced with her.
The day she no longer retains a public voice will be a great day for all of us.
Are you saying you are from Poland? You want to prove my point? Is that why you are responding to my post? Your comment otherwise is unresponsive to what I was saying. Anything to say about that, or are you just randomly picking people to say whatever you want to?
I came to the USA from Romania after we revolted, then tried and executed the Ceausescus. I KNOW THIS COUNTRY IS IN DEEEEEEP DOO DOO. AMERICANS WHO CALL THEMSELVES “PROGRESSIVES” ARE SIMPLY MARXISTS GOING BY ANOTHER NAME!
So sweet!
Lumi: Did you read my post? It said nothing at all about Obama. I wrote entirely about Orly Taitz and her incompetence and inhumanity. That she is a POS and mentally ill are opinions, but the rest of the my post was about stuff that actually happened. She actually did file a case in the wrong court, under the wrong statute, suing the wrong people, at the wrong time. She did that. Lawyers who can be favorably compared with Supreme Court justices would get at least one of those things right.
And I did not call her a racist, or even make any reference to race at all.
If he (or HI) ever receive a lawful demand for documents I’m certain they’ll respond. The certified copy (paper) he acquired in April would be accepted as evidence by any court. The verification which was filed in MS would also be accepted as, by law, it attests that the vital even actually occurred.
Just as a side note, I presume you mean the pdf of the BC you do not consider evidence of citizenship rather than what you stated above, that you don’t believe the birth certificate legal evidence of citizenship.
That she’s a lying, seditionist piece of filth.
Is that plain enough for you to understand?
That should work out well. A few armed crackpots against the most powerful military in the history of the world.
I’m comfortable in saying it’s an hour you will regret. She’s a despicable, manipulative, racist, bigoted, anti-intellectual human being.
It doesn’t have anything to do with examining documents in this case.
It has to do with the difference between a certified document and a picture of a certified document. Examination is not required.
Well, you’re wrong.
The topic is Dr. Conspiracy’s conversation with Orly Taitz, and Obama’s eligibility. This isn’t a political forum. Insults from either side are not allowed. Everyone, please return to the actual topics this blog is dedicated to.
Both sides here are perfectly illustrating what Doc C said in his article “Obot FAQ”:
Lumi: What do you think of Orly Taitz?
What does FIFY mean? I keep seeing this and was hoping that someone would ask (someone other than me – I was a little embarrassed to admit that my online shorthand is not so great).
I finally just bit the embarrassment bullet and am asking… what’s FIFY?
Thanks!
Fixed It For You
I am in the process of deleting the worst of the insulting remarks which violate blog rules.
I am deleting all the discussion of economic policy which is off topic for the blog.
I am in the process of moving all comments unrelated to the article to the open thread.
I put Lumi in moderation for thread hijacking.
About 80 comments were deleted.
Fixed It For You
Usually used when the writer has quoted you and changed a word or two to change the meaning of your post, often for an ironic or humorous result.
The questions allowed to be asked by Arizona S.O.S. Bennett in his verification request to Hawaii were very limited, that’s why the request had to be submitted multiple times. Hawaii NEVER told Arizona S.O.S. Bennett the alleged “birth certificate” posted by the White House matches the the one they (supposedly) have on file…Why the continuing secrecy? BECAUSE SOMETHING IS NOT KOSHER! What of the 25MAR10 statement of Kenya Member of Parliament and Minster for Lands James Orengo, before the Parliament of Kenya “If America was living in a situation where they feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become president of America?”? What of “Fight the Smears”, Obama’s OWN website “When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children…” Read and re-read the last sentence until you comprehend the confession that under British law, “Obama II” was born a BRITISH SUBJECT” because “Obama I” was a British subject (the U.S. has a binding compact with Great Britain recognizing and accepting the full force and complete validity of “The British Nationality Act of 1948” as meet and proper law on U.S. soil). Birth status becomes fixed at the instant of birth and, unlike citizenship, it cannot be modified later in life. Born a Brit = Born with divided loyalties = Not EVER a natural born citizen…And don’t even try “Wong Kim Ark” or the Fourteenth Amendment because neither applies to the question at hand in any way…
One never knows whether comments like this on the Taitz site are sincere or intended to make fun of her. I’d guess the latter in this case.
Well, I don’t have time to type them again in for you. Use the search box (right side-bar, near the top).
I don’t think so, and that’s fine to disagree. Please keep,in mind I am in no way defending birthers. What I’m basically saying is what Dr. C said, that we are not defined by our worst characteristics. That is the central observation of my many years and travels and involvement in society from the highest to the lowest circles, which I have seen over and over again, even from the man/birther who threatened my life, who I grew up with, and who I have seen do many kind and caring things. There is a difference between doing monstrous things and being a monster. To me this is one of the most meaningful qualities to be found in Christ’s teachings, and some other religious teachings as well.
I see importance in calling out lies and destructive self-serving arguments, but I find little value in name-calling, which is what defining someone by their worst characteristics comes down to.
Now I do see that I am writing this in the middle of an ongoing screed by a self-announced visiting nuclear physicist acting extremely unprofessionally, to say the least. But the screed is the screed. I know nothing of her life, nor do I need to. I know birthers personally, and I see with my own eyes how they are not defined by their worst characteristics. The things Lumi is writing I have heard most of my life, over and over and over. I was practically weaned on this stuff. Nothing new, nothing interesting, but I do not doubt she has a real life somewhere else, whatever it may be.
I cannot even begin to discuss politics or religion with my mother, and she like much of my family sounds very much like Lum (I was tempted at one point to ask if Lumi was my brother or mother or sister or cousin or niece or…), but my mother, for example, is one of the most caring people I know. Just don’t start talking about politics or religion.
My brother obviously has gone too far, and he is suffering some consequences for that. Consequences are more real than name-calling, in my book.
As Dr. C. reported on this webiste:
“What Onaka actually said to Bennett was:
‘Additionally, I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files.'”
Onaka is required to verify information on the COLB, not the document itself.
Delete away. You’ve never allowed the truth to be spoken on your site. The First Amendment means nothing to you nutty “progressives.” I’ve noticed Orly Taitz allows ALL comments to remain, thus proving, unlike you, she is a proponent of free speech.
No, Onaka NEVER made such a statement. Have you viewed an actual copy of the correspondence? No, you have not, you’re simply lying.
She asked her Flying Monkeys. My mistake, it was North Carolina.
http://www.oilforimmigration.org/facts/?p=674
Probably the lox. I saw it holding hands with the brisket.
KISS MY ASS. KEVIN THE LYING PROPAGANDIST…
Thanks Doc, for all you do.
Thanks to whatever degree my own comments may have veered into off-topics. I was trying to stay in the related topic of socio-dynamics, of past upbringing, but I no doubt strayed as I responded more and more, particularly on the economics. I apologize.
Then why does the verification say “Additionally, I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files.”? Where do you think he got the COLB he attached? http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Obama-Verification_Page_1_Image_0001.jpg
Sorry, I don’t sing kumbaya.
A pedophile messes with kids. He is defined by his characteristics and actions.
Orly is a racist and a lying, manipulative witch. She proves it everyday with her characteristics and actions. They define her.
People have free will. They can choose to be normal, and they can choose to be monsters. People can choose to be ignorant of truth, or try to become learned. People can give in to impregnated thoughts of racism from long ago when they were young, or use their intellect to rise above such pettiness and bigotry.
There are absolutes in reality.
There is black and white, as well as gray, in reality.
The state of Hawaii has confirmed in multiple ways that the President was born in Hawaii, incudling by the index data, statements by the director, and confirming the data and confirming that the pdf posted on the White House website matches their records. It takes a very special form of nuttery to take these very clear and simple statements, and turn them on their heads to mean the exact opposite of what the words say.
What of it? We have no idea what he based this statement on. Just because a legislator says something on the floor of his legislative body, doesn’t make his words true. Heck, Arizona just past a law that states, life begins “from the first day of the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman.” A legislative body/legislator doesn’t have the power to suspend reality.
And why don’t they apply….neither one says, “except for cases of dual citizens.” In fact there is no law what so ever saying that dual citizenship has any impact on natural born citizenship. Just because you don’t think they apply doesn’t make it so. Born on US and your parents aren’t diplomats or part of an invading army, and you’re NBC. That’s the law. Deal with it. The courts have said so over and over again.
On the contrary, Orly Taitz has been legally and factually wrong on nearly every claim she has made, and she is a kook.
Humm… Apparently my post warranted removal? Didn’t mean to offend I’d I did, though I thought I was being snarky in reply to Lumi as opposed to insulting. Ah well heh.
Orly is a fascist, in the literal meaning.
Excuse me, but what is it you think I posted? To the best of my knowledge, I have never thread hijacked nor violated any other rule.
[Sorry, typo. Should be LUMI. Doc.]
Here’s the story about Orly Taitz’ name: http://spreadingtaitz.tumblr.com/
The US doesn’t care who other countries consider to be citizens. Our citizens are our citizens. When a dual citizen is inside the US, the person is under US jurisdiction and US law is supreme. A person born in the US may be able to claim dual citizenship, but he/she is still a natural born US citizen.
Can you point to the binding compact you are referring to?
I suspect he meant Lumi.
Neither do I sing kumbaya. No one in my family messes with me, for instance. Which is interesting because I’m the peace one, the one you might say sings kumbaya (but that is a misunderstanding of what peace is). They will mess with the tough ex-military ones in the family (and everyone else), but no one messes with me, and by mess I mean big, bad things not just normal family stuff. I believe the only time anyone in my family ever has tried was the recent threat, and without getting into personal details, that man is suffering the consequences of doing that. Thus, they do not mess with me.
The important thing with your particular criminal example is he goes to jail. He suffers the consequences. That’s different from and way more important than defining someone.
At any rate, that’s my take. Not really the place here to do much more with this.
It’s a crying shame that more Judges haven’t treated Orly like Judge England did on 1/3.
Well, it isn’t like she will ever serve such a subpoena properly, so no worries!
Thx!!!
Can you explain why you felt anything good could come from such a conversation?
Orly is not a well woman. She has more than one psychiatric disorder (I confidently say this as a psychologist). I won’t name the disorders here for fear of such statements being considered name-calling. Her illnesses are the type that don’t usually respond to treatment of any kind. I have no doubt that your intentions were good. But, as we can already see on her blog, she is spinning what you said most eggregiously. Now she is saying that you’re being threatened by Obama’s people because you posted a clarification in the comments section for her post.
Your comments about thefogbow are fair … when discussed with someone who is willing to listen to such comments in good faith. Orly isn’t acting in good faith. You know that she doesn’t act in good faith: this is why you had misgivings about returning her call. But if you feel that we are so eggregiously cruel to Orly, why keep your membership? I have no problem with what you said. But Orly isn’t a well woman, and you know that.
You do realize that Orly is suing (well, trying to) members of thefogbow in her RICO suit, correct? You conversation will be used as “evidence” against them.
Not that it will do her any good. Orly’s hopeless in that regard even if she actually had a case to be litigated. But everything she says/does/thinks/hears/interprets in regard to Obama is about winning her crusade against Obama both in court and in smears. And you’ve just handed her more fresh “data” to help string along any of her supporters who have become bored and/or desperate for something new to hope on.
So what good does it do you or reality?
Incidentally, Orly’s just posted a bunch of accusations regarding you and your veracity/ethics etc. on her site by Doug Vogt.
Here’s the statement. Now who precisely is lying?
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Obama-Verification_Page_1_Image_0001.jpg
I don’t have the luxury of just making up stuff because I care about my reputation and the credibility of my writing. Readers and commenters have come to expect facts here facts, and sources and arguments that can be backed up.
Drive-by commenters, who live in the echo-chamber of birtherism are not constrained by the facts. It makes for snappy responses, but after just a few examples, no one listens to them any more.
Doc, maybe I missed it. Have you responded to the observation made above that a judge can take judicial notice of information on government web sites?
She claims that the two of you agree on the following:
“Computer image posted by Obama on whiteHouse.gov is not a document, it is just a coputer image, it is not a certified copy, it cannot be used by anybody for any purpose.”
Any comments?
Vogt’s comment over at Orly’s about this conversation are hysterical (literally). He alleges there is a death penalty in your future. And confirms he has been working with Irey. Now there’s a dynamic duo!
Another commenter has declared Lumi brilliance. We have all been destroyed. Another decried your citation of ‘an experiment in Brazil’ as lunacy. LOL!
And they have panties bunched over this:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hjres15
… a resolution to remove Presidential term limit. Filed by a Democrat. Seems to have pushed their buttons. Nothing new, a google search for “repeal 22nd amendment” is a good time.
I politely offered to tutor Taitz on digital imaging. No reponse yet.
See item # 1 on Dr. C’s post, The annotated Orly:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/01/the-annotated-orly/
“I said that the uncertified image is not legal proof of citizenship.”
Yes, thanks, I’m familiar with that. But I’m still hoping that Doc will speak directly to the question of judicial notice. It seems to me that, while an image on a screen is itself uncertified, if it is purportedly the image of a certified document and is posted on a government web site, its contents can be brought into the record through judicial notice.
Since I see that as precisely the point that Orly is planning to dispute, I’d like Doc’s comments on it.
The First Amendment means nothing to a private blog….be it this one or Orly’s.
So let me get this straight… Lumi gets to call us Marxiists and liars, but I don’t get to call him “morally and intellectually inferior”?
Got it.
RoadScholar: So let me get this straight… Lumi gets to call us Marxiists and liars, but I don’t get to call him “morally and intellectually inferior”?
Got it.
picking and choosing which constitutional provisions and even the churches’ teachings they support is never considered with that group
dumber than dirt gohmert and 13 equally “morally and intellectually inferior” republicans just opened the new congress with an Unconstitutional Bill To End Birthright Citizenship
I know that a judge can choose to take judicial notice of information on a government web site and things published in the news. However, since the whole question is whether Obama’s birth certificate image on the White House web site is a forgery or not, and because the White House is partly a political organization, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for a judge to consider the document as evidence. On the other hand, a judge could certainly take into account the Hawaii verification that’s on the Arizona Secretary of State web site.
On the other hand, if the lawsuit was solely about what a natural born citizen was, then the judge might notice that Obama was born in the US from that certificate, and then use that information along with his reading of the law to conclude he was eligible.
You mean like this?
Lumi January 6, 2013 at 1:22 am (Quote) #
KISS MY ASS. KEVIN THE LYING PROPAGANDIST
Apparently so.
First, I know how Orly acts and how she misrepresents. No surprise. I believe in dialog, and I learned some things from the conversation. I think I understand Orly a tiny bit better than before having talked to her in a setting different from her usual public one. She shared some details about her family that I didn’t know (and won’t be repeating). I picked up some pointers on her voice inflections when she’s about to lie.
I think I am a better-informed commenter on Orly Taitz than I was this time yesterday.
The second “good thing” that came from the interview was that I got some enthusiastic discussion here on the blog during an otherwise slow new day.
I’m quite happy about the outcome EXCEPT I shouldn’t have mentioned the Fogbow. That was a mistake. I am happy to testify for Orly at her RICO trial, even though she wouldn’t like what I have to say.
Not that it makes any difference but I believe Lumi is a her….not a him.
I tried to be an equal opportunity insult deleter. Maybe I missed some because there were so many. That said, in my mind calling someone a liar or a Marxist is an assertion about what someone does or believes, and “morally and intellectually inferior” goes to who someone is. I see the second as a more serious breach of moral speech.
There’s no practical way I could stop people on this blog from calling each other liars. It’s grandfathered into the culture.
I’m not sure I agree that the whole question is about forgery. Forgery has been alleged, but according to Judge England there was no evidence on the record supporting it. And the only reason to allege it in the first place was in an attempt to cast doubt on where the President was born.
With regard to that question, the question of where the President was born, can’t the Judge take judicial notice of the document on the WH site as evidence that he was born in Hawaii?
Lumi is a man masquerading as woman. Lumi is also a hourly wage earner, not a physicist. Read
herhis comments carefully.That is the most pathetic lie I have ever heard. Orly moderates everything on her site, and she regularly deletes my comments, as I have documented with screen shots before on this blog. In addition, the Dr. Conspiracy ID is actually banned and the comments disappear immediately and don’t even go into moderation.
See for example:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/11/talking-orly/
See the comments she censored before she banned me entirely?
I deleted your stuff for being nasty and off topic. What was Orly’s excuse?
At this point, I don’t know of any birther web site where opposing views are allowed (now that ORYR in a fit of pique banned everyone who voted for Obama).
Sorry, typo. Should be LUMI. I have gone back and corrected the comment.
It’s a shame that Orly will never understand that Lacey’s continued painting those because her reaction to the first was so funny, because it means we have to keep seeing them. The original one, of course, happened as a result of a thread on the somethingawful forums where he was doing requests.
doc: the Dr. Conspiracy ID is actually banned and the comments disappear immediately and don’t even go into moderation.
mine too “disappear immediately” and one time i was directed to a cell phone ad
Taitz is absolutely incapable of the kind of self-reflection that would be required for her to realize that most of her wounds are self-inflicted.
Regarding Kevin Davidson’s statement, “I personally don’t doubt his credentials, but it’s not my affair”, it appears that Mr. Davidson thinks that O’s credentials are legitimate. However it doesn’t matter a particle what Mr. Davidson thinks, or I think or the cat thinks. Everyone has an opinion I guess, but the legitimacy of the President should not be a matter of OPINION, it should be a matter of clearly established FACT, and because in over 4 years no one has been permitted to examine/verify O’s original documents all we have are useless opinions like Mr.Davidson’s which mean and prove nothing to anybody.
I had pancakes this morning. None wound up on anyone’s head, but it was tempting.
Yeah, but they were also upset about it when he proposed it last time.
A quick summary is at snopes, that commie site:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/termlimits.asp
=============================
Lumi: I’ve noticed Orly Taitz allows ALL comments to remain, thus proving, unlike you, she is a proponent of free speech.
She’s never pemitted one of my comments. She allows those she want to, so as to add to her status as birfer martyr.
Thanks for that, nice and concise. The justification for wanting repeal seems to be a concern that the term limit removes (some) accountability on the President; in the Second term, he’s no longer answerable to the ballot box. I would note it can free him/her from being bound by party concerns as well, and (hopefully) focus on what’s right, in the big picture and long term.
The State of Hawaii has issued signed and sealed verifications of Obama’s place of birth and age to two Secretaries of State (Arizona and Kansas). It is not a matter of opinion, but of a well-documented fact.
That could be kosher until you added the cream cheese
Which previous Presidents established their legitimacy as “clearly established FACT” in your OPINION?
By the way in a democracy or a republic or a democratic republic, being elected makes you legitimate. End of story.
The first amendment does not apply to the owners of blogs. It applies only to government action. I will say that I find your comments very ironic though. Orly heavily moderates the comments on her blog, does not allow certain people to post and has banned people from posting on her facebook page.
Myself and a number of other posters here were banned from ORYR before it went all birther, all the time, and have similarly been banned from a number of other pro birther sites and pages. Birthers cannot handle being shown the truth and despise debate.
“The State of Hawaii has issued signed and sealed verifications of Obama’s place of birth and age to two Secretaries of State (Arizona and Kansas). It is not a matter of opinion, but of a well-documented fact.”
Right. They also provided an apparently fake birth certificate. And they just won’t let anybody ELSE look at the documents. Just take our word for it. Don’t you worry about that! Move along now. Uh huh. And what exactly else are they going to say if they’re covering for O (and themselves)? Let’s see the original documents. THAT clears this up – shouldn’t be a big deal but don’t hold your breath waiting – 4 years and counting already . . .
Do Obama’s original birth records exist?
“John Smith: but the legitimacy of the President should not be a matter of OPINION, it should be a matter of clearly established FACT
Which previous Presidents established their legitimacy as “clearly established FACT” in your OPINION?
By the way in a democracy or a republic or a democratic republic, being elected makes you legitimate. End of story.”
For pity sake you have to prove your legitimacy to be a janitor in the white house or to play little league ball for that matter. If you get a job (the presidency is a job) by fraudulent credentials then you get the boot and possibly charged with – are you ready for this – fraud. End of story.
What “original documents” do you want to look at and what would you look for if you were allowed to see them?
I notice that you completely ignored this part of the comment you were responding to: Which previous Presidents established their legitimacy as “clearly established FACT” in your OPINION?
Arthur: Do Obama’s original birth records exist?
I can tell you what I think – but . . . then . . . it doesn’t matter a particle what Mr. Davidson thinks, or I think or the cat thinks. Everyone has an opinion I guess, but the legitimacy of the President should not be a matter of OPINION, it should be a matter of clearly established FACT, and because in over 4 years no one has been permitted to examine/verify O’s original documents (if they exist) then all we have are useless opinions like Mr.Davidson’s.
MATTR: I notice that you completely ignored this part of the comment you were responding to: Which previous Presidents established their legitimacy as “clearly established FACT” in your OPINION?
Answer: All who had their credentials questioned I hope – not that much of a history buff – and I hope all in the future who have their credentials questioned will pony up as well.
Still waiting for this guy though . . . 1yr, 2yrs, 3yrs, 4yrs . . .
No, it’s an elective office. Not a job. No documents are needed, only votes. Do you understand what “democracy” means? What a “republic” is? We don’t live in a documentocracy. You get NO documents ever. None. Not now. Not ever. Tough luck, Jack.
Apparently? That’s the best you can do?
Birth certificates are self-authenticating documents and prima facie evidence. No one cares what seems apparent to you or anyone else. The COLB has been out there for four and a half years. If you’ve got evidence that it’s fake, cough it up.
Really? Surely you are an expert, no?
4 more years, pal for a total of 8, and you will get nada mas. Now go cry….
None of the previous 43 Presidents had their “credentials” questioned. Quick: What is the difference between #44 and all of them?
Lemme help you out. The answer is none. Not a single President has ever provided the level of proof that you want.
I am also curious why you are advocating that we ignore the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution by refusing to accept the validity of official documents from the state of Hawaii?
CarlOrcas – What “original documents” do you want to look at and what would you look for if you were allowed to see them?
We could start with the original birth certificate, then move on to Selective Service registration, SSN application. It goes on . . . and on . . . Questions. But no answers, just useless opinions submitted as proofs.
The State of Hawaii has certified Obama’s birth there several times.
What exactly do you want? What will settle the matter in your mind? Specifics. Please.
Any organizational structure obligated to answer any and all questions from all members without regards to the merits of the question will not function.
Some aspect (real or imagined) of the legitimacy of all elected officials who have any ‘spirited’ opposition is questioned by that opposition. It’s an American tradition. Read some election history. Pay attention to current events, local, state, and national.
If obligated to answer to opposition, our system of gov’t would see real gridlock, from sewer inspector to President. Is this vision of idiocracy what you really want?
OK. That’s what you want to look at. Now, for the rest of the question, tell us exactly what you would look for on each of those that would answer the questions for you.
CarlOrcas: None of the previous 43 Presidents had their “credentials” questioned. Quick: What is the difference between #44 and all of them?
Ahh, the race card when you can’t argue the facts. Brilliant and original Carl. Ya got me!
By the way John McCain had his credentials questioned. What is the difference between JM an O?
If you saw the original birth certificate, why would you need to see any of those other things to determine if Obama was a natural born citizen?
What facts? Please provide some so we can talk about them.
As far as John McCain is concerned there was never anything remotely like what we’ve witnessed in regard to Obama regarding his past.
Well, one difference is that Obama released a birth certificate to the public and McCain did not.
ArthurB: Birth certificates are self-authenticating documents and prima facie evidence.
Keep telling yourself that Arthur. Heck that settles it for me.
One more time: Exactly what would it take to settle it for you? What exactly do you need to see?
If a certified record from the state of Hawaii doesn’t do it what will? Please explain it to us.
Well…it kinda jumps out at a person. If not race then what is the difference, John?
What’s your point? What I wrote is legally factual, and denying it just shows your ignorance.
According to the law, the burden of proof regarding prima facie evidence is on the challenger. What settles it for you is of absolutely no consequence. Provide evidence or you will get nowhere — which is, by the way, precisely where the birthers have gotten, and for that very reason.
John McCain’s *credentials* were not questioned. The fact that he was born outside of the country was discussed, and a resolution was passed by Congress basically saying no big deal given his circumstances (I paraphrase). And the difference is Obama was born in country and McCain was not.
CarlOrcas: What facts? Please provide some so we can talk about them.
We could start with evidence/sworn affidavits obtained/provided by Arpaio/Zullo, assistant clerk of the office of the Registrar of Hawaii Timothy Adams, Retired Senior Deportation officer John Sampson, licensed Investigator Susan Daniels attesting to evidence of forgery in Obama’s birth certificate, Selective Service Certificate and Social Security card – etc. this stuff has been out there for 4 years and constitutes pages of nagging questions and evidence of questionable documentation and goings on. Not to be unpleasant at all, but, as they say, “do your own Due Dilligence”.
mccain commissioned a report from respected attorneys lawrence tribe and ted olson regarding mccain’s eligibility which also mentioned obama (page 2)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25457698/The-Tribe-Olson-Natural-Born-Citizen-Memo
What “evidence” was obtained/provided by Arpaio/Zullo? I have heard allegations. I have not seen evidence.
John Smith: We could start with the original birth certificate, then move on to Selective Service registration, SSN application. It goes on . . . and on . . . Questions. But no answers, just useless opinions submitted as proofs.
so you have not seen the selective service records obtained in 2008 during the bush administration?
Obama’s Selective Service registration is public. A copy has been posted publicly, and the Selective Service confirmed that Obama registered for the draft on Sept. 4, 1980, and was given registration number 61-1125539-1.
http://wiki.birtherdebunkers.net/index.php?title=President_Obama%27s_Selective_Service_Registration#Selective_Service_Registration
http://pjmedia.com/blog/obama-did-obama-actually-register-for-selective-service/2/
birther berg: Obama is NOT using a Stolen or Fraudulent Social Security Number. “xxx-xx-4425” is Obama’s Legal Social Security Number.
http://obamacrimes.com/?p=1610
CarlOrcas: What “original documents” do you want to look at and what would you look for if you were allowed to see them?
GREAT questions – if birthers were allowed into the vault with “original” birth certificates, they would not be allowed to touch them………… just look
EVEN IF they were allowed to photograph them (without a flash), the photographs would be called into question
Reagan and Eisenhower obtained birth certificates well into their adult years and simply placed them in their presidential libraries after leaving office.
carter was the first president to be (accidentally) born in a hospital as his mother was a nurse and working when she went into labor
yet those “white” people were never questioned
Paper: John McCain’s *credentials* were not questioned. The fact that he was born outside of the country was discussed, and a resolution was passed by Congress basically saying no big deal given his circumstances (I paraphrase). And the difference is Obama was born in country and McCain was not.
The inference was that I am racist. My point was only that McCains qualifications (if you like that word better) were also questioned, ie. that O is not the first person in the USA to be asked re qualifications. Heck, as you say, even Congress got involved – without anybody playing the race card I might add. Go figure.
No, your point was not limited to that. You also said that “[a]ll who had their credentials questioned I hope” had responded by providing documentation.
Obama did release a birth certificate to the public. McCain did not. I understand you would like to overlook that point, but it is the truth.
MattR – What “evidence” was obtained/provided by Arpaio/Zullo? I have heard allegations. I have not seen evidence.
Call it what you want Matt – these are “allegations” by credible people that need to addressed. Maybe they’re false allegations. But there are a lot of them, again by credible people and . . . it makes ya wonder.
Yet, he never relased any documents.
But let’s try this-I hereby officially question George Washington’s qualifications. You read it rght here in black and white As far as I know he never released squat and that is outrageous.
If you don’t like Obama’s documemts, I suggest you hold your breath until he releases ones you do like. Please film it and place it on YouTube. Thanks.
Actually, John, they’re not “credible”. I suggest you spend some time reviewing the files here on this website for information on the claims and the people who have made them.
ArtherB: Obama did release a birth certificate to the public. McCain did not. I understand you would like to overlook that point, but it is the truth. Whatever but . . .
Ah, you mention the truth, that’s what we’re trying to get at here. But all we have are opinions. I think he’s legit, well, I think he’s not, well here’s what I think . . . and on it goes and who cares what anybody THINKS, let’s get the FACTS.
Speaking of due diligence, you may want to try searching this blog on those topics.
What exactly makes them credible people? What are Zullo’s qualifications? Why won’t they present their findings to the authorities or testify under oath in any of the other cases? It can’t be the costs of travel since they were willing to go to Hawaii twice in the name of the investigation.
What you mean need? What if they aren’t adressed-what will happen? Will the world end? Oops we’re a couple of weeks too late for that. Let Arpaio get an indictment and then we’ll talk…..waiting…waiting….waiting. because when fraud “charges” are made if they are other than bs then there is supposed to be an indictment and then the “allegations” are addessed in court. So, where is the indictment and the trial?
You’re right, John, the “stuff” has been out there for four years. “Stuff” is the operative term. It is not evidence. Not a bit of it could be offered as evidence in a real court. (Ask Orly Taitz about that.)
I have done my own “due diligence”. Have you read any of the material on this site that has been collected over the last four years? Can you discuss it in detail with Kevin and others? If you can please have at it. If you’re right you might change some minds…..you never know.
Like the opinion that McCain did not release a birth certificate while Obama did?
EDIT: Let’s face it, in your mind any fact we present that contradicts your beliefs is only an opinion while any opinion you provide in support of your beliefs should be considered a fact.
John Smith: I think your birth certiificate could be a forgery. When are you going to address this? I have been waiting 10 years now…And I have been waiting 230 years for George Washington to address the allegations regarding his birth certificate. This is very frustratiing…
By the way, why are you too lazy/ignorant use the Quote function? Yet you want to be taken seriously?
CarlOrcas – Actually, John, they’re not “credible”. I suggest you spend some time reviewing the files here on this website for information on the claims and the people who have made them.
Carl, I don’t know if they’re credible or not, but to me they’re claims that raise serious doubts and questions that need to be addressed and if they’re proven wrong then that settles it. But all of this it seems to me should be addressed “on the merits”, each question dealt with and given a reasonable answer not just “case dismissed” because some judge thinks that this would be “embarrassing to the President” or “no standing” or whatever.
You are free to refer to certifications from state officials as opinions, but nobody cares what you think. According to the law, they are accepted as true unless there is solid proof that they are not.
You keep being asked for evidence, and you keep responding with talk of rumors and allegations and suspicions and what “makes ya wonder” and what would “settle[] it” for you.
Those are matters of opinion; official certifications are evidence. In this case they are unanimous — they all show consistent information. The burden is on you to undermine them. Go for it.
Scientist – John Smith” I think your birth certiificate could be a forgery. When are you going to address this? I have been waiting 10 years now…
Boy, that’s original. I’ll address this when I run for president, Run along now scientist, nothing to see here.
Say, John, you put that phrase in quotes.
Are you claiming that some judge actually spoke of dismissing a case for fear that it would be “embarrassing to the President”?
Specifics, please!
MattR – EDIT: Let’s face it, in your mind any fact we present that contradicts your beliefs is only an opinion while any opinion you provide in support of your beliefs should be considered a fact.
Ya nailed it Matt. Ya got me.
And right back at ya too!
Wow, you are seriously late to the party. All of the “questions” which you have raised have been thoroughly investigated and debunked. And no judge has ever dismissed a case because it would be “embarrassing to the President.” Furthermore, standing is an essential element to any legal proceeding. If you don’t have standing, you don’t have a case.
“Credible”?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one! Yes, the credible used car salesman Zullo and his daddy the racist Sherriff Arpio known for racial profiling and employing criminals, and won’t even take his “evidence” to someone to prosecute. Yeh, that’s so “credible” 😀
Sorry, you got nothing.
Arthur B. re you claiming that “some judge” actually spoke of dismissing a case for fear of embarrassment to the President?
Specifics, please!
Judge in Terry Lakin case.
You have doubtless used your birth certifcate to get a driver’s license, a Social Securty card, maybe a passport. So your birth crtificate is a HUGE issue. On the the hand, no law.requires one to be President. I challenge you to show me any such law. And to show me George Washington’s documents. Why are you afraid to do so? What is he hiding?
All of those claims have been addressed “on the merits” on this website and others and have been found to be completely without merit. The most obvious of those was the claim that Obama’s father’s race of “African” was miscoded as a “9” since Zullo claimed that a “9” corresponded with “not stated”. He claimed he had the code book to prove it but he never provided that while others provided evidence that he was using the 1968 code book and not what Hawaii was using in 1961.
Bill The Cat – “Credible”?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one! Yes, the credible used car salesman Zullo and his daddy the racist Sherriff Arpio known for racial profiling and employing criminals, and won’t even take his “evidence” to someone to prosecute. Yeh, that’s so “credible” 😀
Sorry, you got nothing.
You mock these people but say nothing to debunk their findings.
Sorry, you got nothing.
If you don’t know they’re credible then why did you say they are?
None of these charges or claims has made it to first base in an American court of law. What is it now…..200 failed cases?
While it’s charming to conjure up a conspiracy that runs from coast to coast (plus the middle of the Pacific Ocean) and involves people of every possible political persuasion, from Washington to dozens of county courthouses, it’s painfully clear that the claims have been considered on their “merits” and found lacking.
There are lots of politicians out there who would love to put a notch on their gun grips by proving the case against Obama but even the wackiest among them (see Arizona) have decided to move on rather than sacrifice themselves on the birther altar.
John Smith – Do you think credible investigators should be making money off an investigation that is still in progress?
This is a case where the glove fits, the DNA is a perfect match, there are no identical twins, there is blood splatter all over the clothes, there is video surveilance from 5 different cameras, the knife with his fingerprints is found in his luggage, there is a signed confession, etc., etc. But you think there is still doubt.
While birthers have sat in their closed world listening only to themselves, the rest of the world has been looking at those nagging questions. This blog has over 2,700 articles, FAQ’s, investigations and compilations. The news media investigated. No doubt Obama opponents investigated.
While the birthers keep asking the same old nagging questions, the rest of the world got answers and moved on. Birthers, through no fault of mine, remain incredibly unaware of the debunking of their rumors.
If they have evidence, where is the indictment and trial? They have evidence of a crime, but just sit on their asses and let the criminals go free?
All those things are just opinions. He needs facts before he can be certain.
MattR – All of those claims have been addressed “on the merits” on this website and others and have been found to be completely without merit.
On this website? These are serious allegations – on the merits in court would be preferable. Just sayin’
Scientist – If they have evidence, where is the indictment and trial? They have evidence of a crime, but just sit on their asses and let the criminals go free?
Scientist – I agree with you 100% on this.
Birthers are unable to see facts that disprove their theories. If they weren’t afflicted with this disability, they wouldn’t be birthers. I’m all for trying to accommodate persons with disabilities, but birthers don’t want accommodation, they want to spread the disability to everyone.
Source? Please.
Courts can’t do anything when the “investigators” refuse to bring their findings to the authorities and refuse to testify in existing cases. When the allegations are made in public and not in a court, then they can only be refuted publically.
(EDIT: I would also add that the examination of the allegations by the public, including this website, was more than sufficient to determine that they are without merit. )
Have you read the material on this blog? If you had you would understand why this will never go anywhere in a real court.
Then the fault lies with Arpaio. Stop bothering us and go ask him why he hasn’t indicted or arrested anyone. Why are you harassing us, when we don’t have the power to do anything?
WHERE IS THE INDICTMENT? WHERE? WHERE?
And McCain therefore lost the election. Ergo, Obama won based on quantity of documentation released. Or maybe it was election fraud.
Point, set, and match, John Smith. 😉
Wrong again.
The military judge’s use of the word “embarrass” had nothing to do with embarrassing President Obama. “Embarrass” in a legal sense means “to encumber, hamper, impede.” The judge was declaring that the the military court was not going to interfere in issues which are the sole purview of Congress.
http://books.google.com/books?id=35dZpfMmxqsC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=embarrass+legal+term&source=bl&ots=k9t-VyohFc&sig=rMP0g_DBM7spdIA8-dcVqfJh8-w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=leHpUO-BJqWw0AHi2oHoAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=embarrass%20legal%20term&f=false
Matt R – John Smith – Do you think credible investigators should be making money off an investigation that is still in progress?
No and that’s another thing, and it goes with Carl’s question regarding credibility. I don’t know if they are credible or not. What I do know is that they have filed sworn affidavits with serious allegations that should be addressed seriously – not on a website but in a court of law, in front of a jury preferably.
The judge in the Lakin case did use the word “embarrass,” but not in the context that John Smith believes. See my response to him.
Rickey –
Well we wouldn’t want to encumber, hamper, impede anybody over such trivial matters as a man going to jail and the legitimacy of the President. Send it to Congress then – works for me.
How many times are they going to bring up this misunderstanding of Judge Lind’s ruling? Oh wait, they’re Birthers. Never mind.
You are showing your ignorance of the law again. Allegations, no matter how serious, are only addressed seriously when there is serious evidence to support them.
Have you actually read those affidavits? Please tell us what within them qualifies as evidence.
Speculating about evidence is not evidence. Alleging to have evidence is not evidence. Rumors about evidence is not evidence.
Come on, where’s your evidence? Where’s Arpaio’s evidence? Without evidence you’re just blowing smoke. Which is just what the courts have been telling you.
So, get the F off this web site and go bother Arpaio and the DA for Maricopa County. The ball is 100% in their court. Obama can’t indict himself, for Pete’s sake. Nor can anyone here indict him.
Since we are almost 1 year since Arpaio’s first presser and nothing has happened, what does that tell you? It tells me they are full of Shi-ite….
You do realize that courts don’t look into every “serious allegation” that is made, right? Or are you also calling for the courts to investigate the claims of the 9/11 Truthers as well? What about those who believe the moon landing was faked?
That happened when they affirmed the Electoral College vote this past Friday.
And the Rethuglicans didn’t even care enough to show up for the session.
You’ll notice that I pointed out that you put the phrase “embarrassing to the President” .in quotes.
If you are claiming that Judge Lind actually used that phrase, you are lying. There is a transcript of the full case available online if you have any doubts.
Read the Constitution. The eligibility of the President is solely the purview of Congress.
Lakin went to Leavenworth and threw away his career because he disobeyed several direct orders from his commanding officer. He foolishly allowed himself to be sacrificed by birthers such as you.
P.S. Please learn to use the Quote function. It isn’t complicated.
I think you are missing the point, Doc. The web site that is subject to judicial notice is the Hawaii Department of Health page here:
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html
They are the agency in charge of verifying birth records, and the mere citation on that page to the index data is enough to support judicial notice of the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii:
Everything else really is a collateral issue.
Go read fogbow in its entirety or all of Doc’s past debunking posts here, then get back to us, smart guy. Of course, we know you won’t, because it doesn’t fit your narrow bigoted narrative. All you listen to are whack jobs and nobodies who rely on the birther echo chamber for support and spin.
Your side has lost 100+ court cases. Talk about having nothing, lol.
Never trust an immigrant from the communist bloc with a definite opinion about their past because they are all lying. May appear funny coming from me, but remember I never really lived there before 1989.
How is Taitz lying? She is comparing the USA today not to the corrupt and decaying, but hardly murderous environment she grew up in, but to the Soviet Union under Stalin. She has no idea how life was then. In Taitz’ days, Soviet lawyers who did what she is doing did not get 10 years’ incommunicado (code for: you will get shot by your guard on the way to your cell) or even 10 years’ gulag, they were sent to a lunatic asylum for two years. [And I sometimes think that judges refrain from ordering a mental assessment for Taitz because they are afraid she will screech about Stalinist, well actually Brezhnevite, but we know Taitz, methods for putting down civil rights defenders.]
She left the Soviet Union when she was 21. Counting one or possibly two years under Ceaucescu, most of her life has been spent outside the communist system.
This woman lives in a mansion that in Russia only oligarchs can dream of, gets one ticket for speeding after another, has three sons studying at university – and she still thinks her kitchen ventilator might be bugged or her car hose might be sabotaged by agents of the government.
If you have read the affidavits, you would know that Arpaio has made a point of NOT accusing Obama of any crime. Timothy Adams was a temporary worker for the Hawaii Office of Elections, a position which gave him no access whatsoever to birth records. The affidavits by Orly’s “investigators” are worthless.
The only way to get a case against Obama before a jury is through a criminal indictment. Juries are fact-finding bodies. They do not interpret the law. If you believe that a criminal indictment is warranted, get on the horn with Arpaio and demand that he turn over the results of his “investigation” to prosecutors.
“The Court finds the testimony of the witnesses, as well as the exhibits tendered, to be of little, if any, probative value, and thus wholly insufficient to support plaintiffs’ allegations” – Deputy Chief Judge Michael Malihi, Feb 2012
This was after Taitz appeared unopposed at court and asked to go ahead with the hearing to get a ruling on “the merits of their arguments and evidence”.
So, on the merits in court, those arguments were deemed to be rubbish. Happy now? Didn’t think so…
Fluffy can haz mawk?
Well, there is that whole jury nullification thingy. IOW, if Richard Dawkins were on the Scopes jury would / should he vote to convict?
I did. Thanks.
Sigh. I’ll try again.
Linda Lingle is Jewish, and a Republican. I know that sounds crazy.
She believed McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.
Nixon could not keep Watergate a secret. Since the invention of Netscape Navigator, ~1995, the world is filled with journalists and bloggers who want to be the next Woodward and Bernstein.
The only ones who keep beating this dead horse, are rank amateurs and malcontents.
Obama’s legitimacy not only has been established beyond all question, but he is the very first president in US history for whom that is true. No prior president had ever released his authentic certified birth certificate to the public prior to taking office. Most presidents did not even have a birth certificate. Eisenhower had one made retroactively when he ran in 1952. What would y’all think of that!
Are you serious, or is my sarcasm detector need attention? That is so inappropriate. While I appreciate that you acknowledge that talking about TFB was a mistake, you obviously don’t feel the need to even hint that you regret doing so.
But as long as your blog traffic increased, all is good?
Many good people have defended you in the past against Orly and her FMs. Just something to reflect on.
I do think it would be generous of you to acknowledge that not all at TFB engage in the behaviors you dislike. I engage in many of those behaviors but certainly not all. However, there are members who do not engage in any of the behaviors you dislike and never have.
But hey, you’ll be busy because of all the increased activity on your blog for 48 hours; your needs for soul cleansing and entertainment have been met. So all is good in your garden …. I guess.
I’ll leave this discussion now. I feel no desire to further excite you with any additional blog hits/activity.
Thank you. I was raised by Survivors, and it was not fun.
I do not spend my days licking my wounds, like Orly and Lieberman – a former bouncer.
I went to a Jesuit college, and majored in English and photography, and married outside the faith. My gandfather’s physician was Irish Catholic, and when he was hospitalized with diabetes, he went to a hospital run by the Sisters of Saint Francis.
Orly is a fascist, in the actual meaning. She believes Obama is bad for Israel, and thinks she can drive him from office, as in a parliamentary system. Plus, she and her ilk are trying to incite a lone wolf.
Not only but also, Eisenhower got his by getting a sworn affidavit as to the birth events from his younger brother.
How on earth could his younger brother swear to the facts of Ike’s birth ‘from his own knowledge’?
Schizophrenia is common among Ashkenazim, because of close marriage. It runs in my family.
You cannot reason with Orly, and she took what you said as fuel for her fire. I can’t analyze her, but there is no dealing with that screeching harridan.
Because of what she and “Lumi” went through, does not give them moral superiority.
What my ancestors went through, plus $3.50, will buy me coffee at Starbucks.
And what these ‘credible’ people have done, all that they have done, is publish their ‘investigation’ results in a book and offered it for sale instead of turning it over to a prosecutor to obtain an indictment. What kind of ‘credibility’ does that show?
There was nothing credible about the entire affair from go to whoa. There was no investigation, merely a rehash of previously written and long discredited rubbish. It was a joint fund raising project between Candidate Arpaio and WND Farrah, and that is all it ever was. For Arpaio it seems to have worked well as he raised about 5 times more than any Sheriff’s candidate in history or something. Don’t know how much WND got out of it, I assume they kept the click-throughs turning over satisfactorily.
The allegations are neither serious nor credible, and have been disproven conclusively. There is no need for a judge or a jury or Congress to consider such frivolous and ludicrous claims that are false on their face.
I regret mentioning The Fogbow in my conversation with Orly because it has created a distraction.
The issue is not creating blog traffic, it is providing entertainment and stimulating discussion for my readers.
I frankly do not understand your negative take on this. Maybe you are spending too much time in the Obot echo chamber and have lost your perspective.
You’re correct that not everyone at the Fogbow regularly calls Orly “the ditz” or “mad ole Orly” and not every one has a macro that changes “commenter” to “flying monkey” every time it is used. I would point out that I said that BOTH my blog and The Fogbow has remarks like that. But, regardless of whether it is everybody or some people, The Fogbow presents an overall culture of insulting Orly Taitz.
The usage of the word ’embarrass’ in this context, has to do with one branch of Government stepping on the toes of another branch of Government in light of the separation of powers defined in the Constitution. You have no doubt heard of the separation of powers, I am sure.
According to the Constitution, it is the role of the Congress to “make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces”, not the Courts. Further, it is the Constitutional role of the President to be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States and not the Courts.
In fact the Constitution gives the Courts absolutely no role whatsoever in either the regulation or the command of the Military. Were it to attempt such a thing, it would be ’embarrassing’ one or both of the other branches – both in the legal sense of ‘encumber, hamper, impede’ the Constitutional role of that branch, and in the more common usage of putting them in the embarrassing position of having to tell the court to go take a flying fornication.
Lakin disobeyed a direct legal order, not once but twice IIRC. He was insubordinate to his Commander and insulted him directly. He abandoned his unit immediately before deployment leaving them without his acknowledged expertise and forcing an under-prepared replacement to be found on short notice. He plead guilty to the charges presented to him. He was lucky to get a short jail sentence. In WWII he might well have been shot for desertion.
But there is solid video evidence for that:
Proof of moon landing hoax
Doc,you have nothing to apologize for. We have to keep in mind that the anti birthers are on the same side. We all have our differences, but we do not need to turn on each other.
if they haven’t presented any of their `evidence’ in over a year and just keep holding press conferences, i find myself having serious doubts as to their credibility
Arpaio’s fabulous re-election hoard was gotten by a professional fundraising firm, who were paid a lot of it back for their services. I doubt that WND brought in anything of significance. His campaign finance report is online.
Delusions can be persistent, however a good schedule of psychiatric counselling/therapy plus a cocktail of psche meds can bring Orly back to reality
roadburner: if they haven’t presented any of their `evidence’ in over a year and just keep holding press conferences, i find myself having serious doubts as to their credibility
not to mention that they have not testified and been cross examined under oath
when arpaio received a subpoena from taitz, he said it was an “undue burden” – and he’s just a county sheriff – i guess for obama to appear would not be an “undue burden”
Arpaio felt that testifying in GA was too much of a “burden”. Refused to appear
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=30858
Arizona Sheriff blows off Taitz Subpoena
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/01/arizona-sheriff-blows-off-taitz-subpoena/
It appears Orly decided to delete the article about her conversation with Doc C.
Just before 8 pm Eastern time and it’s still there when I access her blog.
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=374579
His comments are still there also.
Best comment this afternoon:
“I googled Kevin Davidson and found him listed in San Diego! He lied about living in NC or wherever, he lives in San Diego and I pooped on his lawn this morning, for Liberty!
– Bob Abooey”
Never mind. It got kicked off her front page.
Yes, I agree. But he got publicity from it, and visibility outside the borders of Maricopa County. It is no coincidence that it was the TEA Partiers that turned him onto the possibilities of expanding his ‘market’ so to speak.
Arpaio will never appear in court under oath unless he’s dragged in kicking and screaming and that won’t happen in any state court outside Arizona. The few times he has had to testify in Arizona are something to behold.
Funny story about that.
There is a fellow that lives in that area named Kevin Davidson who banked at the same national banking firm as I did. He moved and provided the bank with a new address. However, rather than changing HIS record, they changed MY record to his address, and it was a royal mess because he got my credit card bills and of course didn’t pay them.
Kevin Davidson is really a common name.
If anybody tries to mess with my lawn, I’m ready for them.
And thereby into oblivion.
You might want to consider adding a Pooper Scooper to your arsenal.
Your story prompted my to google my own name for the first time in about 5 years. There used to be a shonky real estate guy in Tucson with exactly my name and I had a couple of embarrassing phone calls one day, so I like to check to see who is besmirching me good name.
Anyway I didn’t find much, I try to stay off of google, though it does seem to have found the ancestry list I put up about 6 years ago.
However I did find a possible lost money claim in Michigan. Cool! If it is mine (I was born there and folks did take out insurance policies in my name, so who knows?), its probably $10.95 or something, but who knows?
Thanks Doc!
The judge wasn’t in fear of embarrassing the president. Judge Lind was quoting a supreme court case. From the military law blog CAAFLOG:
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/09/08/phil-cave-posts-portions-of-judge-linds-ruling/
I hope it makes you miserable.
They are not credible people, and the only people who “wonder” are the racist little turnips who just can’t deal with reality. There isn’t s single recognized expert of any kind who wonders anything. There isn’t a shred of proof anywhere, actual proof instead of “fake proof” of “fake evidence” that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii, etc.
THERE IS NO FRAKKING CASE FOR ANYTHING. It’s all made up crap, made up little snowballs that people like you hope will become big snowballs.
Bottom line – you can’t turn crap into filet mignon. Obama is President. You are nothing. Deal with it.
If President Obama had shown up at Lakin’s trial, Lakin would still have been convicted. He was convicted of refusing to obey orders. He invited and earned his sentence. The Military frowns on that.
No sitting President can be indicted of any crime, he must first be removed from office by Congress and only then can he be indicted.
Someone caught red-handed faking evidence (Zullo) is not on my list of “credible” people. And when I say “faking” I’m not spinning something ambiguous. I mean flat out faking.
If you do some research you will find that the question is not nearly as clear and settled as your statement would make it seem.
Lakin pleaded guilty to all but the most serious charge (missing a movement for which he was also convicted) and admitted he was wrong for what he did during the unsworn statement. For the thousandth time. Lakin was convicted because he disobeyed orders and missed a movement and notot because of his political views.
Wow, that’s insulting and completely without merit.
Disagreeing with you does not mean I’ve “lost perspective”. It means I disagree with you.
Happy Monday. LMK
Doc
Taitz is, based on her recorded actions, activites and endeavours,
Ethically vacuous
Morally defective
Seditious
Delusional
A compulsive liar
Incapable or unwilling to apply reality to her legal vomitude
She lies where truth would serve her better.
Invariably accuses all who disagree with her as being evil/traitors etc
Has and continues to advocate the violent over throw of this government
Enables her supporters who advocate murder and treason
Harasses, intimidates and threatens
Repeatedly breaks the ethica canons of her purported profession
So, Mad Ole Orly is a milquetoast identifier, she epitomises Mad AND Bad.
I applaud your moral stance but I’m afraid equating the verbal poking Taitz garners here and elsewhere with the profoundly immoral and unethical actions she performs is a false equivalency.
I don’t see it as a matter of equivalency. I may criticize murder and shoplifting both. That doesn’t mean that I find them equivalent, but that I oppose both.
People are not binary: good or evil. There are shades of gray.
But if you believe that Orly is “mad” by which I understand suffering from some mental illness, then I ask you, in what world is taunting the mentally ill a virtue? In what world is making someone paranoid feel more paranoid to be defended? Would you push a blind man into traffic?
The birthers are not the only ones with an echo chamber. The Obot echo chamber is not one that reinforces facts (Obots access a wide range of facts) but it reinforces attitudes. Just as birthers hold crazy ideas and say extreme things that would never fly in open society, so Obots have attitudes and use language that would never be considered acceptable in open society.
That describes how I took your remark as well.
I respect you and the positions you take, but I differ in the interpretation of “taunting”. Standing up to hallucinations is not necessarily taunting. Orly is operating in a different reality, and accepting it as understandable given her condition is compassionate.
Accepting it as reality or seeming (perhaps accidentally) to condone it in any way is not. Her rants are hateful and inciting of violence, and people should speak out against them.
Ridiculing her for her unfortunate mental condition is not funny. Ridiculing her failing legal attempts is fair game. JMHO.
I would largely agree with what you’re saying here.
I wouldn’t suggest that anyone blunt their criticism of Orly Taitz, of her legal skills, her viewpoints on anything, her degrading rhetoric against Obama, her dishonesty and any of the other things cited. And I think that depicting her as Joan of Arc in a drawing is a legitimate lampoon.
However, using grade-school name calling A LOT, and photos altered to show her in a straight jacket, and making death threats (not from the folks we know) and otherwise pulling her chain is not something I think is right.
What is the difference between a birther who only addresses the President as “Obummer” and an Obot who only addresses Taitz as “The Ditz?”
I think the test is this: would you say the same things in your workplace, church or civic organization about Taitz that you would say on an Obot web site? If the answer is yes, then I think you’re on solid ground.
I am uncertain why you think the PDF of the certificate could not be evidence of the facts stated in the certificate. The PDF is a “duplicate”, i.e., “a counterpart produced by a mechanical, photographic, chemical, electronic, or other equivalent process or technique that accurately reproduces the original.” Fed. R. Evid. 1001(e). A duplicate is admissible in evidence “to the same extent as the original unless a genuine question is raised about the original’s authenticity or the circumstances make it unfair to admit the duplicate.” Fed. R. Evid. 1003. Here, Taitz has raised a question about authenticity, but not a genuine question. So I think the PDF would be admissible.
Perhaps the difference is that the President is a man who made so many good decisions in life and worked so hard he managed to become a star scholar at Harvard and to be elected President despite his skin color and a (to many) Muslim-sounding name, whereas Orly Taitz is engaged in a quest that damages America despite the freedom and tolerance her adopted country has afforded her, and wastes judicial resources to no conceivable good end, PLUS is so inept she can’t even do that right?
Do you see no difference between insulting someone who doesn’t deserve it and insulting someone who does?
IANAL, but…
A Birth Certificate is a document containing information about a birth event that carries a certification by an authorized jurisdiction attesting to the veracity of those facts contained thereon. Such a certification can be made because the authorized jurisdiction is sure of the chain of custody of those facts.
The certification is in two parts: a statement that the facts are true, and the seal of the jurisdiction that indicates the authority of the jurisdiction to issue such a statement. The seal is 3 dimensional and may contain other security tokens.
A PDF can render the certification statement, but cannot render the seal accurately in 3D. If a document doesn’t have a ‘proper’ seal, then it isn’t a ‘certificate’ or ‘certification’. An PDF computer file image of a birth certificate is not a birth certificate unless it has been printed and ‘recertified’ in its own right.
In the absence of an original, a faithful copy of the original is all that can be expected. If the faithfulness of the copy is in doubt, then some other means must be used to ‘back it up’. As the President has possession of the original(s), and all we have are PDF images of the originals, we need backup. The ‘verifications-in-lieu are such ‘back up’. The newspaper announcements are such backup.
The PDF is fine to convey the relevant information, it is the information that is important not the medium. Because the PDF isn’t certified, additional steps need to take place to demonstrate the accuracy of the information. That’s all that is being said.
DOC: What is the difference between a birther who only addresses the President as “Obummer” and an Obot who only addresses Taitz as “The Ditz?”
I think the test is this: would you say the same things in your workplace, church or civic organization about Taitz that you would say on an Obot web site? If the answer is yes, then I think you’re on solid ground.
i refer to taitz as “the ditz” when in the company of people who know she is a ditz – there are some who don’t even know who taitz is and have only followed brief references of the “birthers”- to them i refer to her as orly taitz, one of the birther attorneys
in the summer of 09, while on my annual vacation with family, i showed them the jon stewart video “The Born Identity – Barack Obama is not only the United States’ first black president — he’s also the first not-American president.”
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-22-2009/the-born-identity
they had never heard of her nor the birthers – and in subsequent conversations with these same family members, it’s apparent that they still don’t follow the birthers
I am not a lawyer. My conversation with Taitz in this area was mostly in the context of passport applications, where everybody really does have to prove their citizenship.
The question for the birthers is whether it indeed is a duplicate or a forgery. I would think that if a duplicate were presented in court as evidence, there would have to be an affidavit or testimony from someone saying that of their personal knowledge that it was a duplicate. Why go to all that trouble when a certified copy from Hawaii is in hand?
I appreciate what you’re saying. On the other hand I also believe that everybody has faults, and in your rationale, deserves insults.
It serves me better to criticize actions than to label individuals because I am all too aware of my own shortcomings.
Are there no plans to move birth, death, marriage and other such records to purely electronic formats, dispensing with cumbersome paper altogether.? Most people now file their taxes electronically and I hear talk that it might be obligatory in the not-too-distant future. For some purposes that I have dealt with professionally, like FDA submissions, it already is. One could file an electronic passport application, complete wiith all the electonic signature guarantees and that would authorize the state of your birth to send electronic confirmation of your birth directly to the passport office. The same could be done with a court.
Mid-21st century birthers may find no paper records at all to cry over. And it’s really hard to dry your tears with a series of 0s and 1s passing through a fiber optic cable.
Shortcomings in the rational can be ameliorated by constructive criticism. People who admit shortcomings and are open to improvement do not warrant insult.
On the other hand, those who have faults they refuse to acknowledge but who hurl insults at other people who don’t deserve them… is not an insult the only recourse to such folk besides silence, which could be interpreted as assent?
Is there no such thing as a well-earned insult? And if there is, isn’t Orly among the most deserving?
Including Barack Obama, who is known to have held a passport since childhood.
I think that’s really a question that everyone has to answer for themselves. There’s a lot of personal philosophy behind my choices. I have my own bias, personality and philosophy.
Most deserving? On that account I’ll take Taitz over Limbaugh any day.
See:
http://www.justice.gov/olc/sitting_president.htm
That’s an opinion…..not a ruling by a court of law. I am well aware of the discussions during Watergate because I was in Washington, in the news business, at the time.
It is not a matter of settled law.
To me the bottom line is who is deserving of ridicule.
Calling Obama a gay usurping communist is simply a lie.
Repeating what Orly has said and ridiculing it or her is fair game.
Especially when she begs for money to continue her crusade.
Considering that this very site has ridiculed her for years, I think it’s a bit late for sympathy. Pity perhaps, but a doctored Mad Magazine can hardly be considered sympathetic.
No matter how it’s sliced, that’s ridicule and I think it’s justly deserved.
What John Smith wants is for President Obama to be frog marked out of the WHITE House, Michelle, Malia, Sasha and anything else black right behind him.
That’s what would satisfy John Smith. Anything short of this and you’re wasting your time.
You know I’d actually think better of these folks if they just fessed up and said, “Hey, I don’t like black people and I don’t think a black person should be President.” At least they’d be honest with themselves and everyone else would know exactly they’re dealing with.
Come on LMK……this is drama queendom at it’s finest. So what if that little chat with Orly cause blog traffic and so what if Dr. Conspiracy takes note of it? Cause that’s all he did…take note of it. You’ve taken that to mean he’s sitting somewhere clapping his hands with glee over the increased blog traffic.
Calm down and take a chill pill…..you’ve read WAY too much into Dr. Conspiracy simply making note of the fact that it’s a good thing that folks read his birfer debunking blog and if a few more read it cause of his conversation with crazy Orly, so what…..all the better…maybe they can convert a birfer……..
I don’t disagree with you as a practical matter (i.e., why not use the paper copy rather than the PDF, if it’s available), but I don’t think it’s required, since the judge is competent to decide that there is no genuine question but that the PDF is a duplicate of the paper copy, whatever Taitz may say.
Another (related) point. Suppose I am the defendant in one of these cases and I want to move for summary judgment as to the place of the President’s birth, offering the birth certificate as prima facie evidence. In every District Court, parties file motions for summary judgment electronically via Pacer, which means they submit their exhibits in PDF form. It seems to me that the judge could grant my motion, since Taitz would be unable to show that there was a genuine issue of material fact regarding the authenticity of the certificate or that the PDF was a duplicate, for purposes of the best evidence rule, of the paper copy.
Orly is a bad person and a horrible lawyer. I find her disgusting because she refuses to admit any mistakes or errors she makes. Her Sandy Hook tragedy ” theory” earns induction into the POS Hall of Fame
Her response to the Kenyan birth certificate reference at 4:50 is a lie, and the way she goes on the offensive to intimidate the interviewer is vile. Too bad he didn’t do a minimal amount of investigation on her website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oevqk0oJb4
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=3786