I can only stomach a few minutes at a time, so I haven’t finished it yet. The actual content starts at about 35 minutes in.
Welcome
Obama Conspiracy Theories since 2008 has been your destination for conspiracy theories and fringe views about Barack Obama. Having an argument with your buddies at the office? You're in the right place. Use the Search box below or check out our featured articles. If you don't agree with what you see, feel free to add your thoughts to the over 250,000 comments others have left. To leave a comment visit the Open Thread.
Also check out The debunker's guide to Obama conspiracy theoriesConspiracies
Recent Comments
View the site's Comment feed.Donate
Recommended books
- 935 Lies: The Future of Truth and the Decline of America's Moral Integrity
- A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America
- Arpaio De Facto Lawman
- Barack Obama: The Story
- Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World
- Bullspotting: Finding Facts in the Age of Misinformation
- Chasing Phantoms: Reality, Imagination, and Homeland Security Since 9/11
- Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America
- Conspiracy Theories: Secrecy and Power in American Culture
- Cults, Conspiracies, and Secret Societies: The Straight Scoop on Freemasons, The Illuminati, Skull and Bones, Black Helicopters, The New World Order, and many, many more
- Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free
- Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a Fraud?
- One Electorate Under God?: A Dialogue on Religion and American Politics (Pew Forum Dialogues on Religion & Public Life)
- Our Friend Barry: Classmates' Recollections of Barack Obama and Punahou School
- Religion and the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement
- The Authoritarians
- The Believing Brain: From Ghosts and Gods to Politics and Conspiracies—How We Construct Beliefs and Reinforce Them as Truths
- The Citizenship Debates: A Reader
- The Development of American Citizenship, 1608-1870
- The New Hate: A History of Fear and Loathing on the Populist Right
- The Paranoid Style in American Politics
- The Scapegoat
- The United States of Paranoia: A Conspiracy Theory
- Them: Adventures with Extremists
Quick Reference
- Birther aggregator
- Congressional Research Service report on presidential eligibility
- Donald, You're FIred! – FactCheck.org
- Hawaii Department of Health Obama FAQ
- Hawaii verification of birth certificate
- Jack Ryan document collection on Scribd
- Made in the U.S.A. – FactCheck.org
- Nordyke twins birth certificate
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Gurhrie Photo
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Press
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – White House
- Obama Certification of Live Birth
- Obama presidential library
- Obama White House archive site
- Politifact Birth Certificate articles
- Recent court rulings on presidential eligibility
- The debunker's guide to Obama conspiracy theories
- The Great Mother of all Natural Born Citizenship Quotation Pages
Archives
- October 2019
- September 2019
- August 2019
- July 2019
- June 2019
- May 2019
- April 2019
- March 2019
- January 2019
- December 2018
- November 2018
- October 2018
- September 2018
- August 2018
- July 2018
- June 2018
- May 2018
- April 2018
- March 2018
- February 2018
- January 2018
- December 2017
- November 2017
- October 2017
- September 2017
- August 2017
- July 2017
- June 2017
- May 2017
- April 2017
- March 2017
- February 2017
- January 2017
- December 2016
- November 2016
- October 2016
- September 2016
- August 2016
- July 2016
- June 2016
- May 2016
- April 2016
- March 2016
- February 2016
- January 2016
- December 2015
- November 2015
- October 2015
- September 2015
- August 2015
- July 2015
- June 2015
- May 2015
- April 2015
- March 2015
- February 2015
- January 2015
- December 2014
- November 2014
- October 2014
- September 2014
- August 2014
- July 2014
- June 2014
- May 2014
- April 2014
- March 2014
- February 2014
- January 2014
- December 2013
- November 2013
- October 2013
- September 2013
- August 2013
- July 2013
- June 2013
- May 2013
- April 2013
- March 2013
- February 2013
- January 2013
- December 2012
- November 2012
- October 2012
- September 2012
- August 2012
- July 2012
- June 2012
- May 2012
- April 2012
- March 2012
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- Mastodon
Quick Reference
- Birther aggregator
- Congressional Research Service report on presidential eligibility
- Donald, You're FIred! – FactCheck.org
- Hawaii Department of Health Obama FAQ
- Hawaii verification of birth certificate
- Jack Ryan document collection on Scribd
- Made in the U.S.A. – FactCheck.org
- Nordyke twins birth certificate
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Gurhrie Photo
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – Press
- Obama Certificate of Live Birth – White House
- Obama Certification of Live Birth
- Obama presidential library
- Obama White House archive site
- Politifact Birth Certificate articles
- Recent court rulings on presidential eligibility
- The debunker's guide to Obama conspiracy theories
- The Great Mother of all Natural Born Citizenship Quotation Pages
Amazing, Zullo is claiming the BC is a fraud based on his observing a downloaded PDF copy from the Internet. That is a laugh and a half. No wonder this goes nowhere. I’m sure Zullo knows this is over, he just wants to scam a few more bucks from the gullible.
All it needs is a laugh track.
So really just peddling the same old crap, to the same old fools….
Wow! What a bunch of nothing.
I could only take so much of it and I tried to find an explanation for the video and then gave up. It didn’t sound like Zullo’s voice. Did he say who produced it?
I don’t think they’ll be celebrating in Birtherstan this weekend.
Let the leaks begin!!
According to Carl Gallups people attending the super secret badges-only meeting are “shocked” by what they are hearing. It’s the “Biggest FRAUD in US History”!!!
Be afraid…..be very afraid!!
http://www.ppsimmons.blogspot.com/2013/06/law-men-and-elected-officials-shocked.html
My mistake……misunderstood Gallups ramblings. He appears to be talking about reaction in the public meeting.
I didn’t hear any “gasps”. Maybe just some loud yawns.
That video is difficult to watch. I keep thinking how nuts these people are, and it kind of made me sad. These people were apparently at one time in their lives rather unremarkable (in a good way), but are now sitting around listening to pretend law enforcement officers discuss how a bunch of pixels is evidence that the President of the United States is concealing his real identity. These are people who are too nuts for even teabaggistan.
Sat through all this rubbish which turns out to be 1 hour plus of re-hashed birther falsehoods, lies and innuendo. If what they have is so convincing, why can’t they convince a prosecutor to start a case? I can’t start to bother taking this apart, I have to watch some paint drying.
This from Cold Case Posse Supporter over at FreeRepublic:
23 posted on 6/1/2013 1:53:22 PM by Cold Case Posse Supporter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]
source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3026175/posts
ex animo
davidfarrar
this is the moment when all of zullo’s years of professional training and experience really begin to pay off …
David Farrar:Their fathers on the birth certificates were both described with the term ‘negro’ confirming that the term ‘African’ was never used at that time.
african-americans used the term “negro” but did africans?
The word “Negro” is used in the English-speaking world to refer to a person of black ancestry or appearance. Wikipedia
When evidence can be provided that Hayes is certified to render an opinion on digital documents, I’d be more inclined to considered his opinions. I looked at his website, and from what he provides, I did not see anything about digital expertise. Most of his work appears to involve analysis of printed documents and handwriting, including the questionable practice of analyzing handwriting samples in order to advise personal injury lawyers selecting jury members.
There is not anyone, expert or not, who can opine anything about the original document from viewing a pdf. Wake me when you have proof that there is a difference between the original document and the pdf.
Supposedly it was recorded with a laptop webcam.
“Never used?” The father’s race is what the father says it is. In 1961 a black man from the US would have said negro or African American. But Obama Sr. was not a black man from the US, he was an African. Duh.
Sorry, Yoda. If the source document says Pres. Obama was born in Hawaii, why would we care what differences between it and a pdf existed?
I don’t care. The certified copy has to be given full faith and credit under the constitution. My point was that the “expert”, assuming that he opined anything about the veracity of the lfbc based on the pdf, is an idiot and would be destroyed on cross examination. Zullo has repeatedly claimed that the pdf is a fabrication which was produced with an intent to deceive. Even if it was “created”, if the information on it is identical to the original it could not have been done with an intent to deceive anyone. That is my point. Perhaps I could have made it clearer.
doc: Never used?” The father’s race is what the father says it is. In 1961 a black man from the US would have said negro or African American. But Obama Sr. was not a black man from the US, he was an African. Duh.
donna: David Farrar:Their fathers on the birth certificates were both described with the term ‘negro’ confirming that the term ‘African’ was never used at that time.
my question (african-americans used the term “negro” but did africans?) to farrar was rhetorical
Birther leaps in logic would make Evil Kneivel blush. What the posse has confirmed is that two other birth certificates from 1961 involving African Americans used the term “negro”.
Did they look at all the birth certificates from 1961? I know where I’ll put my money.
Once again confirmed that Americans generally don’t refer to themselves as African. Check. Now, who thinks Africans call themselves American? Anyone?
Geez.
Sorry….I wasn’t clear: I was talking about the video that Zullo played as part of his presentation.
Potter: Once again confirmed that Americans generally don’t refer to themselves as African. Check. Now, who thinks Africans call themselves American? Anyone?
Geez.
best ROAR of the day √
And if some young, politically correct White House staffer was tasked with whipping out a birth certificate before the press briefing what are the chances he, or she, would have decided to use “African” rather than “African American”?
It would not have been a “White House staffer” as the short form BC from before he was President also said “African”.
Correct. Here is his analysis: http://tinyurl.com/phwo85h
White House….campaign……long form…..short form……..it’s so confusing some times.
Just tried to listen to Gallups post-supersecretZullobriefing interview.
Bottom line…..as near as I can tell: Any day now.
And, even if every other birth certificate involving black parent was coded in a given way, that would not be proof enough to assert that another coding was “never used.”
If you run a stop sign a thousand times without mishap, that doesn’t prove that running such a sign will never result in a collision.
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they’ve always worked for me. – Hunter S. Thompson
So is Mr. Hayes’ report published, or do we just have to take Zullo’s characterization of it, because the latter is worthless.
Did they even look for certificates with foreign born parents? That’s what’s funny about the claim it’s another So what moment. So they found BCs where people had parents born in the US referred to as Negro but that has no relevance since Obama’s father was born overseas.
No report published and no actual communication from Mr Hayes. Just like the supposed recording of Verna Lee we’ll just have to wait and see. I also want to add that Zullo admitted he tried over 200 experts and couldn’t find one to agree with Zullo until he came across Reed. Reed has some interesting opinions comparable to phrenology. His own book describes his technique as psuedoscientific.
So where is his deposition? I got an expert to confirm Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl.
Here’s his analysis: http://tinyurl.com/lrbs423
Here is a link to Slartibartfast’s index to comments at The Fogbow about the new Hawaiian document guy, Reed Hayes.
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9326&start=761
We’re dealing with a never ending “So what moment”.
This African vs African American is easily understood when considered from the birther point of view:
If a birther was asked the same questions, white and American are synonymous.
All Americans are white and there’s no such thing as an African American.
What constitutes a black now are the children of slaves their forefathers brought over -so it’s not their fault now- but now that they serve no real purpose any longer, they should be deported.
They’re Africans. They should be in Africa.
When we mistakenly freed you, we meant to go back to where you came from.
We didn’t think you’d be able to be educated either.
How dare one of you come over and pretend to be the president of our white land.
This perspective covers the Kenyan birth, mixed marriage, school transcripts and a host of birther reasons Obama shouldn’t be president.
Aside from being more asinine birther bigot nonsense, two does not equal never nor is it even relevant except for feeble minded fear peddlers trying to make smoke from thin air.
Pathetic but true. And the attitude toward other ethnic groups is similarly hate driven and bigoted.
Why that’s just downright silly, David. A term being used twice merely proves that the term itself was used. Twice. It certainly doesn’t prove that any other term was NEVER used.
Zullo claims that there is a certificate, but he didn’t show it, where someone had crossed out the words “colored” and replaced it with “negro.” Zullo would have us believe that a state official did that, and that it reflected a policy in race reporting.
However, other examples we’ve seen had long hyphenated nationalities for races, meaning that a standard race coding was not used. I have a hard time with Zullo’s interpretation. A birth certificate is completed by the hospital, signed by the parent and then sent to the state for registration. The state can’t just change something that the parent signed, because it is a legal document.
Zullo says that the Obots know nothing about how vital records work, but he is the one with no concept of the subject.
Nothing will ever be presented to higher authorities because the CCP have a fear of providing false evidence.
They have laws they know they cannot breach on one side and gullible people with money on the other.
This is as far as it goes.
THAT SHOWS WHAT A FOOL YOU ARE BECAUSE THEY DIDNT LET ANY OF US HEAR THE PRIVATE CONFERENCE WITH LAW OFFICIALS, SO OF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAR GASPING. AND YOU ALL THAT DONT BELIEVE SO SAD THESE ARE OFFICIALS AND ALL THAT ARE PRESENT AT THIS CONVENTION ARE PROTECTING THIS COUNTRY WHY DONT YOU LOOK AROUND AND JUST SEE ALL THE DEATHS THIS OBAMA HAS CAUSED TO ARE MEN AND WOMAN WITH NO ANSWERS TO THE FAMILYS OF THESE AMERICANS LOOK AT BENGAHZI AND SEAL TEAM SIX LOOK AT ALL THIS SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THIS OBAMA MUSLIM RADICAL TERRIOST AND IF YOU DONT SEE IT THAN YOU ARE PART OF THIS CRUSADE TO RUIN AMERICA FOR THE MUSLIMS OR YOU ARE JUST IGNORANT!!!
You couldn’t make these guys up.
Starting about 49:54 in, in presenting the Cold Case Posse’s case for there being no actual birth certificate, Mark Gillar says “According to Verna Lee, who actually signed Barack Obama’s birth certificate…”
Starting about 43:27, Zullo says “The truth about this pdf, this birth certificate is you can’t bring it into a court of law. The truth is it cannot survive judicial scrutiny on any level.” I’m shocked. Shocked, I say.
Now the closed captions do get pretty good from 43:15 to 43:25.
Right now I’m listening to the part where they talk about what various Hawiian officials said and they parse the (expletive) out of the statements to make it sound like they’re saying something different than what they mean.
Is that something lawyers do? If a Hawaii DOH official find himself or herself in court would a birther lawyer take that approach and how successful could it be?
Zullo claimed (falsely) that there was a media blackout on the Cold Case Posse’s findings, so that the people in the audience were hearing his public evidence for the first time, and that it would have a great impact.
That is silly, since the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association has worked hand-in-glove with WorldNetDaily who has publicized the whole silly mess.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that nothing that the Cold Case Posse has said to date is worth a “gasp” and in that you are correct. It’s bull, pure and simple.
PS. See how much more readable it is when one uses mixed case letters, punctuation and correct spelling? Now go back to your room before they find out you slipped out and are using the computer.
Whoa…..calm down there. You’re frothing at the keyboard!
The gasping was heard in the public session per Zullo and Carl Gallups. I didn’t hear it but I didn’t listen to every second of the session. Life is too short.
Give it another day and we will know everything that happened in the private session…including gasps and groans.
http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season11/mansion7.mp3
Lord knows what a birther lawyer would do if they ever got a real witness on the stand in a real court……probably wet their pants…..but in the end the official would simply say everything you see on these certificates reflects what is in our official records which show Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. End of discussion.
I knew that deranged people like you existed but it’s rather strange to come across one in person. How do you manage to function in life?
ALL CAPS is used by the semi-literate and the insane.
It’s the Butterdezillion method, indirectly.
I doubt that he does function. Does Orly?
I don’t know what makes you to think the poster is even literate to begin with. Being insane and illiterate are some of the requirements for a birther.
Some entertainment from a Free Republic thread about this:
SWAMPSNIPER: “They all have visions of rampaging mobs and burning cities. My view is that justice is worth the cost, but I’m not running anything. Obama is gonna skate and they might hang George Zimmerman, all from fear of the mobs.”
All from fear of rampaging black people.
Seizethecarp: “Zullo says that Obot servers will crash now that he has made this announcement.”
Any server trouble here? Any at all?
Gargantua: “Let the mobs form, and be ready with the 12-GA Ithaca pump-action crowd supression. What better way to start cleaning up the mess in this country than to jail the biggest lawbreaker in American History, and then eradicate a huge percentage of the “Gimme Sum, Whitey!” reparations posse filth. ”
But I’m sure he would object if anyone called him racist.
The fun part about Zampolit Zullo’s breathless prose about how VK Lee told him all sorts of stuff, is how much a liar liar pants on fire he is…..
Zullo never interviewed VK Lee, CORSI says he “interviewed” her although curiously no transcript, written record or audio record was ever shown.
Zullo TRIED to get to see VK Lee in her nursing home in Hawai’i and was chased off the premises by the police.
The Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Convention was like a Renaissance Fair for Birthers. They get to fantasize, playact, and pretend. Mike Zullo puts on his detective costume and is “Lieutenant Zullo.” Instead of hunting dragons they’re hunting usurpers. There is intrigue (secret meetings) and never-ending suspense (not now but any day now).
Along with plenty of cries of “Get thee to a cash machine!”
Reading through the back and forth here, I note that no one has mentioned this.
It WOULD NOT matter if the PDF was a forgery or proven to be a forgery. It was never admitted as evidence nor was it used to prove eligibility. Eligibility was up to the Democratic Party to determine and Congress never raised any objections when the votes were counted either in 2009 OR 2013.
Spending so much time on trying to prove something that is irrelevant is downright stupid. Ergo, Zullo is stupid.
There is no such thing as “court certified” expert. Courts do not certify experts.
Wake me up when Hayes’s expert report is available for reading. Until then, YAWN.
Ya beat me to it. I was going to say the same thing…
But there is such a thing as an expert witness; is there not? It’s true, you may have to go through a voir dire each time, but still —
And the first thing Hayes is going to say is that an examination of the original will have to be done to confirm his findings; you know?
ex animo
davidfarrar
Of course there are experts. Take for example Paul Irey, the Indiana Court said he was an expert in typesetting but not an expert in analyzing a typewritten document.
The same might be true of Hayes. His expertise may be in handwriting analysis but not digital document examining.
You should be suspicious of him if that is not one of the first lines in the conclusions of his report to Zullo.
But before Hayes gets to say “Howdy” someone is going to introduce the certificate with the nice raised seal on it and note that the State of Hawaii says it is complete and accurate and that it proves Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.
What do you think the judge will say then?
I’d say that’s about the size of it.
“NADE members include private forensic handwriting or document examiners who may provide a variety of services:
Handwriting Identification
Deciphering Obliterations
Detecting Alterations
Restoring Faded Writing
Investigating Line Sequence
Development of Indented Writing
Ink Differentiation
Examinations and Reports
Document Photography
Exhibit Preparation
Deposition and Court Testimony
Consultation”
http://www.documentexaminers.org/certification.shtml
As Orly found out the hard way when she overlooked this during the hearing in Judge Malihi’s courtroom.
Zullo has all but undermined the expert by pointing out how they had to try over 200 experts before one was willing to give them what they wanted… Quite an impeachment. Of course, without having seen Hayes’ expert testimony, there is not much to discuss other than to realize the irrelevancy of the testimony as to the factual nature of the long form birth certificate.
Let me help you with some Supreme Court precedent
Hope this helps… What is far more relevant as well as binding is the motion to dismiss…
oh and
And the other side’s questioning will destroy him, even before calling their own actual experts, who will demonstrate how his ‘findings’ must have come from the bottom of his toilet bowl after an encounter with a particularly nasty Rogan Josh.
What findings? I haven’t seen any findings.
Why, I wonder? Traffic isn’t up at all yesterday and today.
Yeah, I was on a jury once. Two expert witnesses. They contradicted each other.
David,
Hopefully so you can grasp some basic reality on “experts”
As stated, courts don’t “certify” folks. As an example
I am a CISSP, a Certified Information Systems Security Professional, I have passed examinations, met certain specific educational, vocational and ethical requirements, maintain sufficient continuing educational requirements and pay my dues to the certifying organization. I am one of some 86,000+ CISSP’s certified globally, contribute to the certifying organzation, sit on the professional development board and so forth.
So, I am “certified” but if I went (as I have before) to a court to render information, opinion, analysis or background I must be able to satisfy the court (in the guise of the attorneys and the judge) as to the relevance and sufficiency of my “expert” status.
In these cases, if challenged I had to explain my background, abilities, standing in the profession, articles I may have written, whether I have been quoted in peer reviewed journals, professsional background etc
The court does not “certify” me and the acceptance of one court does NOT mean my “expert” status carries over, I will have to convince the next court and the next etc.
Now, a court MAY recognize that an “expert” has testified on other occassions and in other courts and weigh that “experts” value accordingly however….no certification alas.
Now, the “expert” quoted by Zullo has “certification” membership in an organization with a considerably smaller membership in a very specific and limited field, to whit, analysis of hard copy documents. Is he competent in that arena, I make the assumption he is until there is proof to the otherwise.
Is he an “expert” in electronic copy, birth certificates, imaging, data forensics etc…nope, not even close. So, no expert for Birferstan alas.
If anyone from “law enforcement” actually dared to use that kind of reasoning in court, I bet they would be laughed out of it by the judge before opposing counsel could even raise from their seat.
Counsel: And how did you confirm the defendant’s gun was the one used to shoot the victim?
Sheriff: Well, we examined two other guns from the same manufacturer and those hadn’t even been fired at all, proving that no other gun than the defendant’s was used.
Counsel (whispering to defendant): I guess you better confess quick, they got us good!
(Excerpt from “My cousin Mannie”, Zullo-Corsi-Mayer Productions, 2013)
It doesn’t matter how many “experts” Mr. Zullo divines. So long as the State of Hawaii has officially verified the accuracy and authenticity of the online PDF copy of the President’s birth certificate, there is nothing to provide expert testimony about and no reason to examine the paper copy from which the PDF was made.
In other words he has nothing… The defense will merely point out that the department of health of Hawaii has verified and certified to the accuracy of the information on the document. And that will be the end.
It’s fascinating that even David understands that Hayes’ testimony, if he ever will do so, is meant to serve as a fishing expedition.
No court is going to take the analysis of a highly compressed document seriously. You heard it here first…
His expertise appears to be in graphology, but he understands that this area suffers from a negative reputation. He also appears to be an expert in document analysis, but again, it is not clear if he has much expertise in electronic document analysis, especially the approaches used in PDF compression. The nature of the document shows extreme compression and therefore, one has to understand how such software achieves this level of compression. And it should not come as much of a surprise to find out that much of the workflow results in many of the features which the CCP has identified as evidence of manipulation.
Now I understand that the CCP and you hope that their expert will allow them access to the original document but I doubt that any court is going to respect their hopes.
Which is of course why they have burnt most of their bridges and focus on Congress. But why would Congress allow itself to be used to guarantee Obama a mid term victory?
It gets tiring constantly hearing stupid comments that birthers are crazy or bigots. That’s not the case. There’s plenty of suspicious activity surrounding Obama and his birth. They might be wrong about a lot of it, and of course those are the parts you pay attention to because it’s easy to dismiss. But there’s still too many things that just don’t seem legitimate like the doctored image that was on Obama’s campaign page, showing a young Obama with his mother photoshopped in, replacing a black man. The only reason to doctor a photo is to hide something. And you don’t hide good things, you hide bad things. The whole Obama born in Hawaii thing might be the same deal. The issue might not be that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii, but that there’s something that they don’t want us to know about Obama. If the theory about Frank Marshall Davis being Obama’s real father is true, then maybe that’s what this all about. Obama himself said he was born to a single mother, yet we’re supposed to believe his mother was married.
I’m also seeing some ridiculous hypocritical comments being made here. Like one post that says you can’t tell anything about the real B.C. from a pdf file. Really? Well then that means the pdf is of no value in proving Obama’s place of birth either, now is it? And with that happy face in the signature, yeah, I’m thinking the birthers are right not to accept such an absurdity as proof of birth. The investigators would love to get ahold of real paper documents and microfilm, and this entire mess could go away instantly if they could and everything was legitimate, but there’s no cooperation on the other side.
People here are just not capable of seeing guilty behavior on the part of Hawaii officials or others on that side of the issue. When investigators go to Hawaii and enter a building, only to have workers there run away, hide, refuse to answers questions, or call the police, that’s guilty behavor. When they won’t answer questions, or instead provide evasive responses, that’s more guilty behavior. When asked point blank if the BC on the govt site matched what Hawaii had, they didn’t answer, but only said they had the same information contained on the BC. Can’t you see the obfuscation and stone walling that keeps going on. So this is why the birther issue keeps going on, because there’s no resolution.
And then we have Obama, the unluckiest person in the world. Obama’s 1991 bio said he was born in Kenya, but no, that was just a fact checking error. Obama is using a Connecticut SSN, but that was just a clerical error. Hawaiian officials couldn’t find Obama’s BC, because they forgot to scan it with everybody else’s, and it mysteriously is found years later stuffed in a book. Obama won’t show us or refuses to get access to his original BC that he mentioned in his book… You see why some of us are getting fed up with all of this and get tired of your liberal childish name calling which serves no purpose. You want this to end, then provide conclusive proof once and for all, not just nit pick at tiny pieces of evidence. Geez!
arpaio speaks “Obama Identity Document Fraud Investigation Not Done!”
@1:35 “you know what the big problem is, nobody will touch it – i can’t give it to the justice department – we’re not done with it yet ….. all i wanted to know, is that a fraudulent document – i never said where was the president born – i just want to know about the birth certificate, a government document, from hawaii, sent to the white house, and distributed around the world by the white house – i just want to know if it’s a fake – what’s wrong with that?
http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2013/06/sheriff-joe-arpaio-speaks-obama-fraud-case.html
Chicken language…
When will he submit his sworn affidavit as the Sheriff?…
When pigs fly.
You impeach your own point by citing a bunch of long-debunked nonsense. If it weren’t serious, it would be funny listening to birthers admit that some of birther issues are nonsense, while clinging to their own set of nonsense. Birthers think that just because they have 100 issues that there must be something to some of it. All that proves is that birthers are prone to making up nonsense, not that they are on to something. I’ve been reporting on this crap for four and a half years. There’s nothing there.
Well, if you wouldn’t all say such crazy, bigoted and downright stupid things, you wouldn’t be hearing about it.
Excellent idea. Let us know when you’ve got it pulled together.
Yes, it is. And your post was nothing more than the same debunked stupidity. The answers are archived here for those that aren’t intellectually lazy and/or driven by hatred.
It’s sad and a little pathetic to see a birther bigot rehash the same asinine nonsense.
A steaming pile of 100% lies is still a steaming pile of 100% lies no matter if you’re willfully ignorant or deliberately spreading ridiculous smears.
I think you’re mixing up stories and add some made-up stuff on your own (“forgot to scan it with everybody else’s”). That’s dumb even by birther standards.
If you read what he actually wrote, you would immediately conclude that he can’t have been talking about his “original BC”.
Nobody gets his “original BC” as that resides in the vault of the state you were born in.
All you can get are
(1) certified copies of the vault document (only under special circumstances)
(2) an official BC from the state (the COLB in Obama’s case)
(3) souvenir “birth certificates” from the hospital you were born in (with no legal value)
Obviously Obama was talking about (3) in his book because he states he couldn’t even use it to prove who his father was (because souvenir BC’s don’t prove jack).
If you can say that while complaining to be called crazy, you’re showing the exact level of cognitive dissonance birthers are known for.
Google “pareidolia”.
You probably also believe Martians carved a giant face in a Mars mountain and this proves the existence of extraterrestrial life, right? Yes, so many unanswered questions…
“Dwells in Fire” is suffering from the delusion called “Where there’s smoke, there must be fire somewhere.”
Not so. In this case, as in so many others, there’s just a well-financed SMOKE MACHINE.
No the smoke is from that burning sensation obviously he contracted an STD if he’s dwelling in fire all the time.
Dear Dwells in (pants on) Fire:
The “investigators” are not a legitimate, coordinated or internally agreeing, formal or informal instrument of inquiry. They comprise any and every past, current, and future Obama-hater spewing endless questions expressing conjectural doubt about anything they can imagine which would cast uncertainty on the office-holding legitimacy or honesty of the President. No standard of proof would satisfy all or probably even the 31.67432 % of them which 0.00019 % of them swear would make 0.00017 % of this “whole thing” go away.
The only thing which would make this “whole thing” go away, would be a moment when all Birthers went sane and succumbed to a seemly fit of honesty. We know THAT’S not going to happen.
Nor do we really want that to happen. For the good of our nation, we never want the recollection of Birther’s embarrassing failures to “go away”. Doc’s site here has published Birther debunking facts which will always be accessible somewhere by some means in the future.
It’s good that the phenomenon of Birtherism has established a record of its own collective dishonesty and illegitimacy as a political hatchet-job bent effort. It creates a fitting warning caricature of such dishonest fact-distorting political efforts should they arise in the future pretending like Birthers, that they are something other than political assassins substituting lies for bullets.
I’m all for loud, anti-American, obnoxious, lying, delusional, hate driven, screeching birther bigots as long as they exercise their right to free speech from their foul, musty, dark basement hideouts and avoid turning into violent psychopaths.
It may help guarantee a Democrat in the White House for a few more terms and more RWNJs losing their seats in Congress.
No, there’s not. There’s just a bunch of idiots yelling at the top of their lungs. That doesn’t qualify as “suspecious activity”.
Everything is easy to dismiss, because it’s not actually true. If you take a look at the articles on this blog, we’ve tackled just about every single birther lie out there.
And this is the most idiotic theory that we’ve come across. First off, there’s no “black man’s hand”. It’s a hand that just looks that way because of shadow on a black and white photo. Which we have addressed on this website.
That’s right. The PDF has no legal value in proving the place of birth of Obama. What Obama did with that is put it on the White House Website so that any yahoo can actually take a look at it and see what it is. He would not present the PDF for a place of birth if he actually was required to show it. He’d present his “valid Hawaii state birth certificate” that he got in 2007, and released to the public in June of 2008.
My question to you is you seem to want Obama to prove to you personally that he was born in this country. Now, without scanning and putting the birth certificate on his website, how do you propose he does that?
Do you think that he should allow reporters to come and photograph it? He did that with the COLB, which is a “valid Hawaii state birth certificate” (Direct quote from Janice Okubo, spokesman for the Hawaii Department of Helath). You don’t seem satisfied. Do you think that he should hold a press conference in the White House, and hold a copy of his birth certificate up for the cameras and then allow the entire White House Press Corps to handle it? He did that with the Long-form. Savannah Guthrie said that she handled it and touched the seal. Even WND’s own White House coorispondent said that it settled the issue for him. You don’t seem satisfied. Should he mail a personal copy to every voter in America? Well, that would only cost somewhere around $1 billion dollars, and that doesn’t include the staff time that it would take for his staff to address the envelopes, and get it out.
Again debunked. That smiley-face is a artifact by the fact that the compressed the document. When they released the Long-Form to the press, they photocopied it for everybody’s press packet. This photocopy was then made into a higher-resolution copy of it that the AP used at various points. The “smiley-face” is gone. Again, debunked.
Not going to happen. They have no right to it. The Hawaii Department of Health is not going to let a couple of yahoos from a quasi law-enforcement agency in Arizona to walk into their archives and get it. They wouldn’t allow real law enforcement people to do that (they might send law-enforcement a verification of the information like they did to the Arizona SoS, the Alabama SoS, and the Mississippi Court). Two, they don’t allow anybody but authorized employees of the Hawaii Department of Health into those archives. Their laws (which includes administrative law) do not allow that. If Barack Obama himself walked into the Hawaii Department of Health and asked to go down into the room where his birth certificate is stored, the Hawaii Department of Health would say no.
Here’s an experiment for you. You guys have a couple of people from Hawaii, who were born in Hawaii. Have them go into the Hawaii Department of Health, and ask the people there to see their “original birth certificate”, to be escorted down into the room, and see the original book that their birth certificate is bound. See what the Hawaii Department of Health says.
And how do you expect them to act? The law forbids them from doing what you want them to do? Do you expect them to go, “you know, even though the law forbids me to do this, I’m going to risk my job, and jail time and take you down there?”
You do realize that the information they verified includes the following: FATHER – BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA. So, the Hawaii Department of Health has verified that Barack Hussein Obama is the father of Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.
Every one of your points has been debunked. There are thousands of people who have Social Security Numbers which are suppose to be from states that they have never live or worked in. In fact, the Social Security Office has actually given SSNs to two different people with the same name before. These things happen. And yet, you want us to believe some 50-year-old conspiracy.
Obama never said that, and we know that his mother was married because we have seen the divorce decree. You have to get married before you can get a divorce.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/81813155/Divorce-Decree-for-Stanley-Ann-D-Obama-and-Barack-H-Obama
Not only that but this would destroy birther claims of a supposed 5 years after the age of 14 residence for the mother if he was born overseas. This then changes to only one year if born of a single mother
Volunteer at an animal shelter. You really need something in your life. Other than Seroquel, that is.
But Obama said he was born in Kenya to his literary agent; did he not? Which would seem to me to be prima facie impeachment evidence.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Not according to the Literary Agent who wrote the book jacket. And you can say all you want to that it is a convienent mistake, but keep in mind that that book jacket appeared on the cover of the President’s autobiography, which says that he was born in Hawaii. One would think that if the editors and fact checkers were doing their job correctly they would have caught and at least questions that.
I hope that keeps you up at night.
David Farrar: But Obama said he was born in Kenya to his literary agent; did he not?
NO as said by the author of that pamphlet – “There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.”
the year BEFORE that pamphlet was written, the NYT posted “His late father, Barack Obama, was a finance minister in Kenya and his mother, Ann Dunham, is an American anthropologist now doing fieldwork in Indonesia. Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii.”
in obams’s book in 1995, he said he was born in hawaii
why is an ERRONEOUS post in a pamphlet more accurate than the NYT & obama himself?
Well, duh. If he walked on water you’d impeach him because he can’t swim.
We get tired of hearing the same lies told over and over again. It has been almost 5 years and birthers are still talking about the EO from Janaury 21, 2009 supposedly sealing the President’s records. Even Zullo repeated that lie. And we have produced the actual order hundreds of times, if not thousands to prove birthers wrong, but they persist.
So much of what birthers say has been proven to be wrong, impossible, something taken out of context or a flatout lie that we, those here who are rational thinkers, have no comprehension as to why there are still birthers spouting the same stuff, day after day, year after year, without moving off of square one and without ever admitting anything they ever said was false. Case in point. One of the reasons we were told that the lfbc was forgery was that it was signed by UKelele, when it turns out it was Verna K, Lee. Did any birther say, hey, we misread that, sorry? When Zullo used the wrong the code book during one his grand pressers, did we ever hear anyone say, hey he made a mistake, let’s get the correct book? No.
Birthers are never wrong because anything that proves them wrong is part of the conspiracy. I state with this no hesitation, no rational person would be a birther.
You’ve lied about this before (http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/09/genuine-world-class-computer-expert-evaluates-obamas-birth-certificate-pdf/) and the truth hasn’t changed.
And you ignored the answer because that’s what persistent birther trolls do.
Miriam Goderich edited the text of the bio; she is now a partner at the Dystel & Goderich agency, which lists Obama as one of its current clients.
“This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me–an agency assistant at the time,” Goderich wrote in an emailed statement to Yahoo News. “There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.”
Anyone can dig up hundreds of instances where you’ve spread this lie and many, many other lies you’ve perpetuated about the President around the internet.
That’s what you do full time every day and night, right?
Spread blatant lies on the internet because you’re obsessed with the President?
Truth.
Yeah, and whatever became of this:
http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/i-will-file-against-mitt-romney-if-he-is-nominated
Majority Will,
I ignored her answer because it wasn’t sworn testimony. Sure, she can say anything now, but the fact is until she is put under oath, her statement is worthless. And then there is the matter of judicial notice of her testimony, even if it was taken under oath. Why would a judge believe a statement under oath when s/he can simply call for the documentary evidence itself to settle the matter?
This statement is impeachment prima facie evidence, requiring a judge to seek further documentation as to the truth of the matter over sworn testimony.
ex animo
davidfarrar
ex animo
davidfarrar
In your dreams, David Farrar. The written statement that Obama was born in Kenya surely would bear no more weight, and probably considerably less, than a newspaper item from the same time period. In courtrooms, newspaper items are generally considered hearsay. To overcome this presumption, other evidence supporting the veracity of the item must be introduced. You seem to be treating this little biographical blurb like a prima facie evidence document, which It definitely is not.
Where is the evidence supporting this little blurb? The person who knows most about it says it is false, so you — and other likeminded birthers — bear the burden of proof of establishing that Mr. Obama himself provided the (false) information that he was born in Kenya.
Once again we see an armchair law spouting nonsense. Suppose you are a cop. As a cop, you come across the book jacket and decide to investigate further. You call the literary agent who advises that she made a mistake and that information was not given to her by the President. You do not believe her, but you have zero evidence that she is lying. You check a little further and still find no evidence that she is lying. No witnesses come forward to say that she is lying and protecting the President. I call that a dead end. No attorney in the world would go forward with that kind of evidence. It is not prima facie of anything other than your continued obsession. As I said before, no rational person would be a birther.
But the real irony is when an obsessed birther bigot who has made a career of spreading blatant lies around the internet claims her statement is worthless.
David Farrar:
Majority Will,
I ignored her answer because it wasn’t sworn testimony.
there are quotes FROM obama before & after saying he was born in hawaii –
IF obama were on the stand swearing on a stack of bibles you would say’s he’s muslim so bibles don’t matter or that he lied under oath, impeach him
why dontcha give us a scenario in which there would be 100% proof that would satisfy the birthers?
That’s truly an asinine response and 100% expected of you.
Your hardcore fantasy of a birther fishing expedition into the President’s birth records is bizarre, obsessive and delusional.
“Impeachment prima facie evidence”?
Wow!!
This isn’t a birther cesspool where rubes gobble up birther legalese gibberish.
David Farrar: Re your assertion that a startment from a 1991 biographical blurb is “impeachment prima facie evidence”, requiring (!)a judge to seek further documentation as to the truth of the matter over sworn testimony. (emphasis added)
In your fantasy world.
A promotional biographical brochure bears no greater weight, and possibly even less, in a court of law, than a newspaper item. Particularly when the editor of the brochure states that her slip-up caused erroneous information to get into the brochure.
Know what newspaper articles are considered in courtrooms, unless they are backed up by other, credible, evidence? Hearsay.
Let’s switch the scenario just a bit. Suppose a reporter interviewed young Mr. Obama in 1991 for a much more obscure newspaper than the Boston Globe or the New York Times. And suppose the reporter misunderstands Obama and prints that he was born in Kenya.
Let’s further suppose that the error goes undetected until 2012. (It’s an obscure paper, remember.) When it comes to light, the reporter (who for some reason has saved his notes from that interview) checks them — and to his chagrin — discovers that Obama clearly stated that he was born in Hawaii, and is Kenyan by ancestry, not by place of birth.
Suppose then that the reporter confesses to everyone who asks that this was his error; that Obama never said what he was quoted as saying. You’re saying that the newspaper article bears greater credibility than the reporter’s statement that he misquoted Obama? And that a judge would be required to take the article as the truth unless it is overcome by more convincing evidence?
Just the opposite, my friend. It would be incumbent on anyone trying to establish that Obama said he was born in Kenya to present clear and convincing evidence that this was in fact the case.
In the actual case, the brochure editor said he made a fact-checking mistake, and President Obama certainly has not said that he told anyone he was born in Kenya. So where’s your evidence?
In this instance, the judge’s duty would be to rule the newspaper article — or the actual biographical blurb — inadmissible. As hearsay.
JD Reed:
remember the bogus 2008 “lobster” story from rupert’s ny post?
the post printed a retraction on10/21/2008: ROOM DISSERVICE
THE source who told us last week about Michelle Obama getting lobster and caviar delivered to her room at the Waldorf-Astoria must have been under the influence of a mind-altering drug. She was not even staying at the Waldorf. We regret the mistake, and our former source is going to regret it, too. Bread and water would be too good for such disinformation.
should we still believe the original story or the retraction?
That explains a great deal. Only a person as ignorant of the law as you would retain a lawyer as incompetent as Orly Taitz.
So what was it when she wrote the pamphlet in the first place?
Now this wasn’t “sworn testimony” either, but it sure was a firm declaration of intent:
http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/i-will-file-against-mitt-romney-if-he-is-nominated
Whatever became of that, David?
Rickey,
Your statement betrays you; my friend. You know nothing.
ex animo
davidfarrar
ROTFL… You have no idea how our courts work now do you?
Say the person who remains fully ignorant on the topic of Natural Born as resolved in US v Wong Kim Ark.
Come on David, at least pretend to put up a fight… We are not so gullible as to take your proclamations as written in stone…
Perhaps David does not understand what is necessary to overcome prima facie evidence…
Orly tried and failed, time after time.
ROTFL… Hearsay of Hearsay… Really my friend… Have you no respect for our legal system?
JD Reed,
And you think a man would had the power to tell the IRS to do his bidding couldn’t deal with this women’s testimony, even if she wasn’t willing, to vindicate her boss even now?
You don’t think a judge would take judicial notice of that fact and simply request to see Obama’s natal records?
In any case long, long before she would testify, ‘Discovery” would have taken place…and we win.
ex animo
davidfarrar
So in other words you admit you have nothing.
ex parte milligan
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
Where is your ‘evidence’ that Obama ever told his literary agent any such thing?
Seriously, Birthers just make themselves look more and more tawdry with statements like this, and your follow up refusing to believe what the author of the article said- unless she was on a stand.
Think about this- and then run away:
Barack Obama never said he told his literary agent any such thing.
His literary agent never said that Barack Obama ever told her any such thing.
But you- you claim that Obama told his literary agent this- based upon what?
And then when his literary agent specifically denies what you claim- you say you can’t rely upon what she said.
So once again David Farrar-
Where is your ‘evidence’ that Obama ever told his literary agent any such thing?
nbc,
Are you sure about that; my friend?
By the way, I working on the constitution being natural law or common law. I haven’t forgotten you.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Ah yes a big huge conspiracy. You have no idea what discovery even is. You don’t get carte blance on all documents you ask for. Discovery would probably only include getting the short form since it is the only relevant document and the DOH would turn it over and you’d still lose.
ex abundanti cautela
Dr Kenneth Noisewater
sfjeff
Now who are you going to believe; Obama our you own eyes?
ex animo
davidfarrar
Wow, that sure put me in my place!
I have worked in civil litigation for nearly 40 years, and I have spent considerably more time in courtrooms than you and Orly combined. I wouldn’t hire Orly Taitz to help me fight a jaywalking ticket.
Our own eyes show us that you’re a liar.
ex astris scientia
Dr Kenneth Noisewater
Memory need a little jog?
http://www.osah.ga.gov/documents/Cases/TranscriptFarrar.pdf
So all this happens…when?
Dr Kenneth Noisewater
You are guessing now. My prima facie impeachment evidence goes directly to the issue at hand. Not only does it directly impeach Obama’s claims, but also the Hawaiian Health Department records themselves.
If your job was to get to the truth of the matter by finding one, single, solitary, independent, corroborative piece of evidence that supports Obama’s claim, the first place you would go would be to his natal records; would you not? And if not; where; pray tell?
ex animo
davidfarrar
Now remind me again, who did the judge believe, you and your pal Orly or an EMPTY CHAIR?
I think David thinks it means he’ll get to be on the Discovery Channel.
Speaking of jogging your memory, remember this, David?
http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/harvard-names-mario-apuzzo-esq-to-ezra-pound-chair-of-common-law/#comment-2499
Rickey,
Than you know nothing about the Georgia case.
Yes, Orly had, at that time, by far the best evidence from Hawaii, and probably still does, than anyone else. True, her lack of basic legal experience was something of a bigger surprise than I have envisioned.
ex animo
davidfarrar
here’s the “evidence” we waited for: 10/2012
President Obama got back at Donald Trump by mocking him — and himself — over citizenship claims.
“This all dates back to when we were growing up together in Kenya,” Obama joked to The Tonight Show’s Jay Leno on Wednesday.
“We had constant run-ins on the soccer field.” Obama added to laughter. “He wasn’t very good and resented it. … When we finally moved to America, I thought it would be over.”
We ALL know how it turned out. Another blast from the past:
“The Court finds the testimony of the witnesses, as well as the exhibits tendered, to
be of little, if any, probative value, and thus wholly insufficient to support Plaintiffs’
allegations.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/80424508/Swensson-Powell-Farrar-Welden-vs-Obama-Judge-Michael-Malihi-s-Final-Order-Georgia-Ballot-Access-Challenge-2-3-12
I obviously have way too much time on my hands today.
I just read the transcript. Holy cow! What a mess. That’s the first one of hers I have read. How does this woman keep her law license?
I have a cat named “Einstein” – orange tabby – whose “basic legal experience” would put Orly to shame.
Well, looking at what David has to offer us, we know what keeps her in clients.
You have no “impeachment evidence” and never have. Face it, everyone sees through your pseudo-babble lies, David. As usual, you are merely putting your own ignorance and lies on display. For all your “tireless effort”, you haven’t fooled anyone, except fellow fools like yourself.
Easy, this is a birth record we are talking about. So one would go for a certified copy. Which has been done. Its called the COLB in HI. There’s your “prima facie” right there, in how reality actually works. If there was every any credible evidence to CONTRADICT the COLB (which there never has been), then the recourse would be to go to the ultimate authority with dominion over such birth records. That happens to be the HI DOH and they’ve repeatedly confirmed and backed Obama’s records and the data they contain. Game over right there. But hey, keep shouting at the clouds, years past your expiration date.
Don’t worry David, in late January of 2017, you’ll finally succeed in having Obama out of office. Glad to see you’ll have wasted 8 years of your life frothing at the mouth like a madman for nothing.
Yours is NOT prima facie evidence! It’s not even probative evidence, it’s hearsay, and it’s contradicted by what the two principals say, or don’t say. You call Obama the literary representative’s boss. He’s not.
You’re also assuming a supposed fact not in evidence, which an honest and competent judge would not do: that Obama ordered the invasive IRS probes of the conservative groups.
You’re long on speculation and woefully short on actual facts.
You spin a fantastic scenario. Are you saying this will happen, is likely to happen, could happen, or — in your perfect world — should happen? Take a stand, say which of these you believe.
If I had to choose, I would hire your cat.
Do you even know what prima facie even means David? Thus far you’ve presented nothing that could be considered prima facie in fact you don’t even have the actual supposed blurb you were talking about to present in court. You have nothing that can impeach Hawaiian records.
ex cathedra
Dr Kenneth Noisewater
Remind us again what the judge thought of Orly’s “best evidence”
ex glande quercus
Dr Kenneth Noisewater
Indeed. Buckets of dumb.
I think he would serve you well. He is very aggressive.
In case anyone is wondering ex cathedra means from the chair in latin. Obviously the most appropriate response to david
David Farrar–how is that you manage to be so condescending about something you know so little about?
Same way Scott E or Mario Apuzzo can it’s their nature
Yeah… from the chair…from the ‘throne’…
Obviously from the depths of the bowl of the ‘throne’.
David, you’re funny…
You do realize that in order to introduce that brochure, you would have to authenticate that brochure, which would involve calling the literary agent up to the stand, and asking her to authenticate it. Then comes the questions, “Who told you this information”. The only way you’d get it in is a statement by a party opponent, or a statement against interest…
Now, once you have the literary agent up there, you’d have to get her to state that “Obama told me that he was born in Kenya” for it to get in. If the agent says, “It was a fact-checking error and Obama and I never had any conversation about that”, the next thing will be an objection from the defense to the entire brochure as hearsay, which gets it thrown out of court.
Then we’re all left with the self-authenticating COLB that Obama released in June of 2008, while all the rest of the birthers stand there claiming, “But that’s not a real birth certificate”. Then the Judge declares Obama “born in Hawaii”.
Max thanks you:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ubereye/4644107958/in/set-72157605641599877
David, how many times do I have to tell you? Obama was born on Krypton.
Ex Lax
misha marinsky
Here is the truth about Orly Taitz’ name: http://spreadingtaitz.tumblr.com/
It was no surprise to most of us who had seen her in action. Of course, even Orly’s ‘best evidence’ carried no weight.
By providing hearsay and unsubstantiated rumors? Is that your best evidence? No wonder you sound so desperate.
David apparently thinks President Obama was telling people that he was born in Kenya to Miriam Goderich. That’s what David said, isn’t it?
And there I was trying to work up something complicated with that Ex Lax thing…
You would ask him to provide a birth certificate… And guess what… It showed him born on US soil. It is corroborated by contemporaneous news paper announcements. The Judge has no choice but to accept the prima facie evidence of the birth certificate.
Such are our laws and Constitution. Perhaps you may want to familiarize yourself some more with it? No, it is not the one which was based on Vattel when it came to citizenship, that one died much earlier than when US v Wong Kim Ark put the final stake through its undead heart.
Some are still arguing the same rejected foolishness. Can you imagine?…
So what now…
It appears that our friend David Farrar may be unfamiliar with how to impeach a person or statement or how to overcome prima facie evidence.
Someone on par with his understanding of the concept ‘natural born citizen’ I would say. Somehow he merely repeats the same nonsense but makes no attempt to formulate an informed argument, based on logic and reason.
How sad..
That is David Farrar in a nutshell. He’s an extreme example of the Dunning-Kruger effect on full display.
OK, I sprayed my screen over that one.
Oh, boy. I tabbed David as the dimmest birther bulb outside of the FR a while back on Sqeeky’s blog.
He is grievously afflicted with Dunning-Kruger syndrome, and it inures him from embarrassment when he displays his abysmal ignorance. and is called for it.
Right off the top of my head, I remember him expounding on the traditional succession of English Monarchs, but didn’t know that the founder of the Hanoverian dynasty wasn’t even English!
And, that is not the most egregious faux pas he made…by far.
LAX is by far the crappiest international airport on the planet.
No, you and Orly have nothing and know nothing. The best evidence is the birth record, and add to that the memories of people who knew Ann and saw her with her baby on the UH campus, and the kids who went to school with him on Oahu, including during his visits to Oahu while living in Indonesia. Toss in the friends & co-workers of his tutu who learned about him from her and then saw him waiting in the outer office and doing his homework while his grandmother finished up her work. Baskin-Robbins. Punahou. And every school thereafter.
President Obama’s grandmother cracked the glass ceiling in Hawaii and was well known for that breakthrough by many, many people – particularly professional women – in Hawaii. And his mother was a pioneer in micro-economics. Long before people were aware of the child becoming a great man, his grandmother and mother were recognized in educational and professional circles in Hawaii.
I enjoy the theatrics and lunacy of birthers, but sometimes it’s just too stupid and too insulting to reality.
He is passionate in his ignorance.
Yeah… A fascinating case study indeed.
No, MIA is. I’ve been there, and it’s awful.
My vote is for Charles De Gaulle.
My vote is a tie between Kabul International – KBL – or Baghdad – BGW.
I recently changed terminals at Heathrow with 1.5 hrs to get to my Chicago flight. After walking some through the terminal, you get to a sign which says your gate is still 20 minutes away. (Much like those signs at Disney World.) 20 minutes. In the same building. Over level ground.
Not surprising birthers are awfully ignorant on our nation’s laws and the constitution. About 2 months ago a few of us on Amazon had to explain to Tracy Fair the amendment process. She seriously thought the President signs all constitutional amendments to make them laws and they are all drafted by congress.
A 100 kB brain attached to a broadband mouth.
How could that be when he learned at the feet of the master–Orly Taitz.
On a more serious note, one of the things that confounds me about birthers is that the lawyers and other legal professionals on here and on thefogbow have correctly predicted the outcome of over 200 lawsuits and legal proceedings and yet the birthers continue to maintain they are right and that we are either wrong or lying or both.
There is one thing that I found disheartening and, in my opinion, fuels part of the birther delusion. People like Taitz, Klayman, D’Onofrio and Apuzzo are such bad lawyers that it overshadows the fact that there is nothing to bitherism at all, under any of its guises. But one would think that birthers might, just might realize that if there was anything to birther claims, so serious right wing conservative, heavy hitting attorney would pick up the mantle. The fact that none has really tells me everything I would need to know about the truth of the birthers’ claims.
I was in a discussion with one of them a year or so ago, who was convinced that the 14th Amendment and the 16th Amendment were ‘unconstitutional’.
They could not understand the concept that something that is part of the Constitution cannot be unConstitutional.
Once you’ve convinced yourself that you’re living in a dictatorship that will thwart all your efforts to get justice through the courts, it comes natural to explain the 0-200 record with “they are just ruling as the regime demands”.
The part that really is confusing me is how they can believe that, yet are still convinced they’ll find their “one honest judge”.
If Orly had really learned from the Soviet regime, she’d have to conclude it would be *impossible* to find a court that rules against the party line.
So even within their own twisted world view, they are totally inconsistent.
You wouldn’t even get that far. Even if the court assumed that the agent said Obama told her that, it wouldn’t create a case or controversy. (“Objection: relevance.”)
I can walk around all day telling people that I was born in Australia, that would not lead any judge to the conclusion that my official German birth certificate was a forgery and that the official verification from the state that I was born there was a lie and part of some conspiracy.
Your logic has already been tainted by the birther claims – it doesn’t matter if Obama himself swore on the Bible on national TV that he was born in Kenya, his testimony is simply irrelevant since he has no personal knowledge of his birthplace, just like everyone else.
If anyone wanted to impeach the prima facie value of the birth certificate and the official verification, they’d have to bring something more substantial.
Which is another reason I never understood the fixation on the PDF. The only thing that could properly impeach the BC (or rather, the COLB) would be something that is not tied to the physical representation.
Which is why the first attempts to “prove” forgery centered on logical aspects such as “could not have been written with a typewriter” or “has a number that is out of sequence with others”.
(But, in true footgun fashion, the conspiracy has moved away from attack points that would, if birthers were correct, actually get them anywhere and decided instead to focus on stuff that, even if true, would be irrelevant.)
If you found a true anachronism on the BC (good example is the fake Kenyan BC that states “Republic of Kenya” for a BC from 1961 when it didn’t yet exist), that would be something. Obsessing over technical issues of scanning plus converting to PDF plus optimizing doesn’t get you anywhere.
If I’m not mistaken, we have a bit of a precedent here. Didn’t President Eisenhower think he was born in Tyler, Texas, while Denison, Texas, managed to appear as his place of birth on the birth certificate he eventually acquired?
Please just take a moment and really read this stuff. Let’s not try to trash someone else. Assasinating someone’s character is not a way to win an argument. Just read, and just learn. Please. And let’s all just be civil. None of this proves or suggests Obama wasn’t born here, in Hawaii, or anything like it. It doesn’t prove that a birth certificate doesn’t exist. Just read these reports, take it in, and please be objective.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/assets/Obama_LFBC_Report_MaraZebest_2012-07-04.pdf
http://www.mcso.org/MultiMedia/PressRelease/MARAZEBESTREPORT.pdf
These aren’t made by teenager conspiracy theorists posting video’s on YouTube. These people have backgrounds in law enforcement, and law. These aren’t their first investigations. They’ve consulted type face experts, Electronic document experts, even a liberal forensic document expert that Obama’s own law firm used as a witness. No one to my knowledge has been able to successfully automate anything that resembles the birth certificate (Believe me, I’m searching). If someone can do that, this all goes away. One theory about optimization creating layers doesn’t debunk the dozen other critical issues with this document.
I really want to believe that my president, your president, our president has nothing to hide on this matter. WE ALL LOSE if he’s not who he says he is. EVERY AMERICAN LOSES if he’s not who he says he is. But this is serious, there’s something genuinely wrong with that file.
Thank you for reading this.
Yeah but you have to remember that his ‘witness’ was his younger brother.
Been there, done that.
You are right about that. They are Con Artists running a scam.
But character assassination is the only weapon you’ve got against Obama.
No there isn’t. There really isn’t.
In any case, the “file” isn’t important. The INFORMATION is important; specifically the date of birth and the location of birth.
The State of Hawai’i has VERIFIED EVERY PIECE OF INFORMATION multiple times, and that information correlates with separate contemporary sources. Even if for some unearthly reason the White House went to the trouble of forging the Birth Certificate, the forger used all the actual information, and that is all that counts.
At this point, it is, quite truthfully, IMPOSSIBLE for the information on the Birth Certificate to be wrong.
Okay if you want to be taken seriously- explain what the law enforcement background that Mara Zebest has?
You link to two links both about Mara Zebest Report. And then say these people have a background in law enforcement?
Now why don’t you read this:
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf
HONOLULU – The Hawai„i State Health Department recently complied with a request by President Barack Obama for certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth, which is sometimes referred to in the media as a “long form” birth certificate.
“We hope that issuing certified copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth to President Obama will end the numerous inquiries related to his birth in Hawai„i,” Hawai„i Health Director Loretta Fuddy said.
“I have seen the original records filed at the Department of Health and attest to the authenticity of the certified copies the department provided to the President that further prove the fact that he was born in Hawai„i.”
On April 22, 2011, President Obama sent a letter to Director Fuddy, requesting two certified copies of his original Certificate of Live Birth. Also on that day, Judith Corley, the President‟s personal attorney, made the same request in writing on behalf of the President. (Letters from President Obama and Ms. Corley are attached).
On April 25, 2011, pursuant to President Obama‟s request, Director Fuddy personally witnessed the copying of the original Certificate of Live Birth and attested to the authenticity of the two copies. Dr. Alvin Onaka, the State Registrar, certified the copies.
Now- given that the State of Hawaii has confirmed that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii- why should I care what Mara Zebest says?
No, teenagers tend to have more sense than these adult conspiracy theorists. I should point out that there’s nothing about being in law enforcement that makes one immune to believing in fantasy conspiracy theories. Think JFK assassination.
Particularly if you have checked luggage. The trek to baggage claim is unbelievable.
Zullo may have had a few years of law enforcement experience in a small town in northern New Jersey 20+ years ago. He probably knows how to write out a traffic citation.
You’ll have to explain to us how that background makes him qualified to investigate the supposed forgery of a birth certificate.
Well, there is young Albert Renshaw of the oft-cited “Obama Birth Certificate Faked In Adobe Illustrator – Official Proof” video. The lad who says “and I do this for a living.”
Kevin, there’s not one damn thing civil about pissing down our necks and telling us it’s raining. You’ve got no moral high ground here.
We know who Zullo is. He served for a very short time with a very small police department in New Jersey. He has not recent law enforcement experience and no – none, zip, nada – police powers.
Now…..who are the rest of “these people”? Do you know?
What about those other “investigations”? When? Where? What?
No points for a mediocre, drive by concern troll citing laughable b.s. from other hardcore birthers with obvious bigoted agendas?
The irony is how birthers are so eager to believe in hearsay from anonymous sources and promises about secret evidence, yet refuse to accept hard facts that are right before their eyes.
(Though I’d say they’re second to truthers who, in the face of thousands who saw the planes crash into WTC, both directly and on TV, still claim those were missiles masked by some super-advanced 3D hologram technology.)
The additional irony is how many of them have already realized how Arpaio and Zullo have been playing them for fools, exploiting their desire to believe in even the most outrageous claims as long as they carry the promise of “any day now”.
Mara Zebest is a an expert in Adobe programs. She was not who I was referring to as having the law enforcement background. Mike Zullo does, and the fact that he’s from New Jersey really means nothing to speak of his experience or lack thereof. You’re trying to disqulify a man based on where he’s from? Let’s just be reasonable. If one person can explain to me how a document that would have had to have started out as a flattened image, can be scanned, contain a layer that when hidden reveals and undisturbed background with different color information (instead of transparency or the default white) then I’d be on board and right there with you guys.
The fact is that there are so many inconsistencies with that document. Having a plausible explanation for one or two, does not account for all.
I read the http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf release.
It in no way actually addresses the questions being raised about what’s inside the birth certificate document published. Any one of you could say that you felt the document, witnessed it being scanned or whatever. I’d have no way to actually prove if you did or didn’t. It’s just someone’s word against another. People from both sides of the aisle lie, and it’s really tough these days to believe anything a government official says.
I mean no disrespect. I assure you I’m not crazy. I don’t even doubt that a birth certificate for the president exists. I’m not arguing that he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I’m not saying that he’s ineligible to hold office. I believe Mrs. Fuddy when she says she witnessed the copying. But Mrs. Fuddy didn’t take it to DC. She didn’t upload it. She hasn’t said that the document online is what she witnessed being copied. Yes I realize that sounds like crazy conspiracy theory.
What I’m saying is that I have personally looked at the document with Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, and Acobrat. I do use those programs professionally, and while I don’t claim to be an authoritative expert, I know my way around to say the least. Every question being raised about the document is independently verifiable. It doesn’t change system to system.
I just want answers to those concerns. If any of you can duplicate an automated process that can produce anything remotely similar I’m all ears (and eyes)
Here’s just a few things I’d like to see and I don’t think it’s unfair to ask. Start off with a paper document with genuine typewritten material and scan it.
Apply whatever compression you can or would like to (or don’t).
The final document needs:
Multiple layers (Yes I know compression can achieve that).
More than one layer has to be a 1 bit bitmap graphic, with a color that’s out of the gray scale.
No searchable text, no recognized fonts
The type written parts must be modified to have their spacing’s automatically altered, to allow for kerning, and in general just no longer being a fixed width apart from separate characters. The typeface style must also change randomly within at least one word.
A clipping mask must be created over the entire document to conceal the edges of your final document.
At least one layer when hidden must reveal a color other than a default background color (usually white) or a transparency
At least one layer of text (over a colored background) must be able to be cleanly lifted without taking any of the surrounding color with it.
At least one layer must be RGB color 8 bit, and be scaled at 48% (That’s 150ppi conformed to Illustrator’s 72ppi standard)
And another layer must be 1 bit Bitmap color, and be scaled to 24% (That’s 300ppi conformed to Illustrator’s 72ppi standard)
The BC published by the white house meets all of those criteria. Every last one of them. If anyone can make that happen I’ll be thrilled, admit I was dead wrong, and I’ll help spread the word. But your recreation has to meet all of those requirements or it doesn’t pass the scientific method.
Please no attacking anyone’s character, I hate it when conservatives do it you, and I hate it when you all do it to Birther’s. That solves nothing, and it proves no one right or wrong.
I believe that every American deserves to have that document openly and correctly scrutinized and explained by experts. It would put the matter to rest once and for all. I think both sides would love that.
BTW Dave B. I agree that Albert Crenshaw is not an expert in the field. He did a good job finding some anomalies and bringing them to light, but he is not an expert in my opinion. He seems to be a really smart guy with a bright future, but certainly not an authority on the matter. But is Mara Zebest not an Adobe expert? Is Reed Hayes not credible document examiner? Is the type face expert of 50 years (blanking on his name) not a reliable educated man to debate typewritter styles and limitations? One kid that isn’t up to snuff shouldn’t ruin the entire analyses of credible professionals. To Mike Zullo’s credit, they’ve gone to experts in the various fields, to get independent verification (I feel like that is responsible investigating). Not one thing he’s saying about the BC hasn’t been confirmed by others with at least some credibility or expertise.
Is it so wrong to ask that they get their chance to present their case, and have Obama’s team present theirs with their own credible experts and examiners? It’s ridiculously simple on how quick this could all be resolved. Unfortunately, we’re the ones left to debate and cross examine each other. And it’s pitting a lot of good, decent Americans (and some radical ones too) against one another.
Again thanks for reading this lengthy comment. I hope you all have a good day.
Respectfully,
Kevin
CarlOrcas, I don’t know who the other investigators are. A bunch of retired ex cops and lawyers is what I’ve come to understand. I highly doubt they’d lie about that, but I can already sense your rebuttal for that one. So I’ll admit, that is just an opinion. But I’m also not claiming that any one claiming to have seen the birth certificate is lying either. I have no reason to not believe that they saw and felt something.
My sole issue is with the document published by the white house. That’s it. That’s what I’m questioning because I looked at it for myself, on my computer, with my own eyes. I don’t have to take anyones word about that.
Dave B. certainly not trying to piss down your necks. I’m sorry if I offended you. I’m not saying one side or the other is claiming a moral high ground. I just don’t want to be attacked for what I feel like is a legitimate concern on something that has nothing to do with the points that I’m arguing about.
Majority Will, please explain what the laughable b.s is that you’re referring to? Are you claiming that what’s in those reports isn’t in fact represented in the birth certificate on the white house page? Me lending credibility to Zullo is my opinion. And you’re all good to feel like that is laughable. The things discussed in those documents however are fact. You can independently verify it yourself.
Kevin, Kevin, Kevin
Really….?
Mara Zebest is NOT an “expert in Adobe Programs”, she is a woman who, 12 to 13 years ago, was a minor contributor to two books on Photoshop 6 and 7.
This is a product that is currently in its 13th version so to say any knowledge she may have had is tremendously outdated is an understatement.
In addition her contributions were on how to use a single application, Photoshop, that has exactly zero to do with PDF’s.
I’ll let you in on how competent Mara Zebest is, she was at a presser with Jerome Corsi where he was to expound on his BS (and sell some more conspiracy booklet cack).
She couldn’t even get the laptop to start the application. It’s on video with her and Rash Face struggling to start their “proof” about computing shenanigans.
So, a person with very outdated, minor expertise in an application over a decade old, that has no relevance to the subject at hand, who can’t even start the application she is supposed to be an “expert” in.
In fact she’s so “expert” she didn’t even catch the minor issue that the document has meta data that demonstrated that the BC PDF was NEVER touched by any Adobe product but was created via the QUARTZ system app in Apple.
So, all your BS about Adobe is exactly that BS, so troll, wander off and try and peddle your wares where someone isn’t going to laugh like a drain at your arrant stupidity.
Bovril.
The fact of the matter is that the last program used to save it, Preview, erases previous Meta Data. Otherwise, we should have probably seen the meta data from whatever scanner was used to scan the document. Right? So you have no idea what programs were used to either scan it, or assemble it which ever the case may have been.
And you still are trying to debunk a myth by tearing down credentials rather than actually putting the document itself through the scientific method.
So I once again ask you to enlighten me, in light of my “arrant stupidity” you claim I have, to create a scanned document that meets the requirements that I posted above.
Then I will gladly wander off and peddle your wares.
Fair enough. Now let me ask you a question, not to answer to me, but to yourself, privately, to prove to yourself and not to me whether what you say below is true.
Insofar as you looked at the White House PDF, why do you think what you see makes it look dodgy to you? What experience do you have with optimized PDF documents? How many have you looked at? If your experience is not broad, then a conclusion on your part that the White House PDF is dodgy must be from something other than experience and expertise. It would have to be bias. You cite lots of things, but why do you think that you understand what you are looking at and why do think they are not normal? Why do you think the typeface changes? Is it because the resolution is low that they aren’t clear? On what basis did you decide that two heavily distorted images are different? What qualifies you to make that judgment? How many similar documents, typed by worn typewriters, photocopied, then scanned at low resolution and optimized have you looked at?
Judgement from ignorance is bias. So where is the bias coming from? It’s either based on your views of the President, or it’s based on things you have heard about the PDF. Mike Zullo, who was a small-town cop many years ago, but a used-car sales man for many years since, is not an expert in documents any more than you are. Mara Zebest, while she has some expertise using productivity tools, has said things that are flat wrong, proving that she’s no expert in PDF processing. Driving a car well does not make one a mechanic–and Zebest is a driver. Were you aware that none of the PDF volunteer experts Zullo presented have consistent reports? They all say that a PDF must be such-and-such a way, only each one different, proving their incompetence from internal contradictions. Did you know that Zullo was caught red handed fabricating evidence and lying in his presentation on multiple occasions? Why would you trust that guy?
On the other hand, guys who do electronic document analysis for a living, like Ivan Zatkovich (testified in federal court as to electronic documents), Neal Krawetz who is known for finding alterations in terrorist videos and the author of image analysis software, and Dr. de Queiroz who holds patents in PDF compression techniques ALL have not found that the White House PDF was a fake.
So why are you trusting the least competent witnesses, including yourself? Is that reasonable?
And just for a reality check, remember that the State of Hawaii has issued, in addition to multiple public statements, certified verifications of every item of information on the PDF direct to no less than two state secretaries of state (Kansas and Arizona). Since we know that everything on the document Obama released matches his original records, why would he fake it? That makes no sense at all.
The doubts make no sense at all. So you can perhaps understand the reaction of people, who know this stuff backwards and forwards have, to someone spouting nonsense.
Citing sworn political enemies of the President whose agenda is to destroy his reputation is ludicrous and pathetic.
If you were innocent but repeatedly accused of a heinous crime,
would you recommend that I learn the truth from your accusers
who are deliberately lying about you and want nothing more than to see you destroyed?
Let that sink in for a few minutes.
I have 11 years of experience in Photoshop. I worked for a fashion photographer specifically doing the touchups, and I currently design artwork for musicians for their websites and CDs. I make pdf’s all the time. I use Adobe Acrobat, Photoshop, Illustrator, Dream Weaver, Audition, Premier Pro all the time. So my judgment is based on 11 years of manipulating electronic files for clients. Not on ignorance, not on bias, on my own experience. I’ve had my head in the sand about this whole issue until very recently.
Just try this.
Look at Layers 1 & 2 on the White House Birth Certificate in Adobe Illustrator. Zoom in on either one of them, click them on and off. Do you notice the green background is still there? That it’s not a white space? That it’s not a subtraction of the layer being hidden?. How is that possible if not for the use of human manipulated layers. Optimization won’t do that. That’s fundamentally false, and physically impossible for scanners or cameras to do. Please try and prove that wrong.
That is my big “smoking gun” if you will. If you can authentically produce that from optimizing a flattened image then I will sing your praises. Much less any of the other number of issues.
Now where are you getting your information from? What makes the sources you cite immune from any bias, political agenda, or ignorance. You cited a document of a couple people claiming they’ve seen the document. I’ve challenged you all to examine the document for yourself. We can walk around in hypotheticals all day long about who’s believable but that won’t get us anywhere.
I’ve looked at this for my self. Not on a YouTube video, but on my own computer, with my own software. Can you say the same? I’ve attempted to recreate this myself, I cannot. I want some one to prove me wrong, and not to get into hypothetical or philosophical rhetoric. Scan me a document, extract a layer and show me what was behind the ink or image before the scan.
I will be glad to admit if I’m wrong about this.
Another way of detecting bias is to see how someone deals with alternate explanations.
For example, we non-birthers don’t simply say “every ‘anomaly’ can be explained technically as follows: …” but also comment on the possible other explanations, like “it’s totally off to assume a human forger would … because …”.
The opposite example would be a birther “expert” like Irey who starts off with a misleading premise (“old typewriters don’t have kerning” and “typewriters don’t have different fonts”), then claims what he observes as “anomalies” are “kerning” and “different fonts” and ends up with the conclusion “therefore forgery”.
But he doesn’t even address other possible (and sound) explanations, such as ink bleed, incomplete advancement of the carriage, bent paper etc.
He doesn’t even address them. He doesn’t even bother to say “it cannot be ink bleed”, let alone “it cannot be ink bleed because…”.
That’s excusable for a non-expert simply because a non-expert might not think of other explanations (here only the stubborn claim that there can’t be other explanations shows bias), but not for an expert.
Let’s take an example:
An expert takes a look at a photocopy of a $100 bill. He notes that the two “L”‘s in “DOLLAR” are not the same width and, since “the L’s are always the same width on $100 bills”, he concludes “it’s forged”.
But if he doesn’t even address the possibility that a sharp fold in the bill could’ve been responsible for the result, he shows extreme bias.
If he made his claims in court and the defendant’s lawyer would confront him about possible folds in the paper during copying, he cannot brush that off or say “hm, I didn’t think of that” without disqualifying himself. He’d have to explain why he can rule that out.
And that’s the birther problem with the PDF. If they had a photocopy of a $101 bill, they could point to forgery immediately. (But not of course if the treasury says they once issued such bills for a short period of time.)
But as long as they only have “experts” who drone on about one explanation while not even dignifying the others with a refutation, who can claim these birther “experts” are unbiased?
Majority Will
Both Arapio and Zullo have sworn that they were trying to clear the name of Obama. That’s what I’m guessing you find laughable.
Obviously they both differ from the President politically. But that’s what they’ve gone on record as saying.
Now their actions, that’s certainly up for debate but I think your “sworn enemies” statement is a bit of hyperbole.
And if they’re right about Obama, America will essentially be destroyed. It would not be a good day. That would mean we’ve had a complicit congress, and a complicit media this whole time. Our trust in both government and media would be demolished. It would not be a good day. I’m afraid of that day. I just want to make the pdf document the point of debate here.
What bias does Reed Hayes have?
But you apparently have never used a manual typewriter which can have variable letter spacing.
Here is an example of a Hawaiian birth certificate that has variable spacing and kerning.
Edith Coats Birth Certificate
I have cliffside property to sell you.
Sworn political enemies is not hyperbole at all.
Your dismissal by omission of the authority of the state of Hawaii which is backed by the Constitution speaks volumes about your own agenda and bias.
You’re pretending there’s a fire when the smoke is coming from a smoke machine run by con artists and political enemies with bigoted agendas.
“And if they’re right about Obama, America will essentially be destroyed.”
THAT is hyperbole. Oh, the irony.
The PDF says the President was born in the state of Hawaii on August 4th, 1961.
The state of Hawaii says the President was born in the state of Hawaii on August 4th, 1961.
Majority Will, say what ever you’d like. Can you create a document that closely resembles the Obama BC? Yes or No? That’s it.
Gorefan, okay after looking at that image for 5 minutes I can’t really tell what’s possibly kerned or vari spaced. Do you have a flat scan of it that’s not being held at and angle? But for the sake of argument let’s suppose your right. You win. But that’s only one of several issues with the BC. You have to account for all.
Anyways fellas I’m off to bed…. have a great day!
The bottom line is, the PDF is irrelevant.
It’s a convenience only, it was the method by which the Whitehouse allowed the public to view an image of the document. Obama could have traced it on wax paper in crayon and ironed it to the Whitehouse window, and it still wouldn’t be reasonably considered a forgery, because it’s not the original certified copy, and it has no legal standing whatsoever.
Until you birthers quit harping on the pdf, you’ll always be viewed as ridiculous.
This is another anomaly that can be explained.
One of the Cold Case Posse’s own experts said this was possible.
Tim Selaty Jr. Hidden CCP Report
“Clipping mask”
“One piece of evidence exhibited was that you could turn on and off a layer in Obama’s long form birth certificate and reveal hidden document data including more of the safety paper background and some additional writing to the right.”
“I confirmed that you can scan an image with a normal household scanner, and when you use Mac OS X Preview’s “Print -> Save as PDF” menu option, it for some reason, rewrites the PDF’s data in such a way where it generates a clipping mask. The clipping mask is a white trim around the PDF. When the PDF is opened in Illustrator, you can reveal the clipping mask to show hidden information or layer data underneath, which in my case, was part of a birth certificate.”
BTW, here is a 1943 typed letter that has variable spacing.
General Patton Letter
That’s a truly silly request.
Say whatever I like? Gee, thanks. You must be new here.
And you’re still ignoring the obvious.
The PDF says the President was born in the state of Hawaii on August 4th, 1961.
The state of Hawaii says the President was born in the state of Hawaii on August 4th, 1961.
Why would a forger produce a document that has EXACTLY the same information authenticated by the state of Hawaii that confirms that the President meets the qualifications stated in the Constitution that is necessary to run for the office of President of the United States of America?
You said, “I just want to make the pdf document the point of debate here.”
Yeah, we know what you want.
Here’s a clip for hit and run concern trolls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAp9sFVdERQ
Look at box 12b the “my” in Army or box 7f the “ny’ in Company. Box 2 the word “Female”. to name a few examples.
You asked Majority Will if he could create a document similar to President Obama’s. I don’t know if he can but Professor Richardo de Quieroz says that he can.
“I took a birth certificate which has a similar background pattern, scanned and compressed using an older DjVu tool. It has shown the same problems as POBC, like text letters that were missed and sent to background, and multiple text styles. It didn’t have halo, though, because its algorithm decided to obliterate the whole background pattern. Perhaps if I had time to toy around with packages and parameters I might find something very close to what was used to generate the document shown by the WH, but I unfortunately do not have the time right now.”
“In summary I can only say I see much stronger signs of common MRC algorithmic processing of the image rather than some intentional manipulation.”
Professor de Quieroz E-Mail
One by one the anomalies that you find compelling can be stripped away.
Okay I promise this is my last post of the day. First of Gorefan, thanks. I saw that report as well. I don’t think that claim alone is enough to scream it’s a fake. As for to the Patton Letter, thanks again for that. I was basing that info off of a type face expert that’s on the birther argument side. He knows far more than probably either of us (definitely me) about type and identifying type styles but this is exactly the stuff that needs to be said here and made public! He should have to refute your evidence.
The clipping mask part is only one of several suspicious parts of the document. We need to determine the probability of each occurring via an automated process and find out exactly how likely it is that that document was either manufactured, or not. You have already single handedly presented the best case I’ve seen so far and I give you kudos for that sir. Seriously I do.
Can you help explain the background saftey paper is still existing and visible behind the white speck layers of what originated from a single flat image scan? That really is my biggest issue, but that comes from my 11 years of being a photoshopper
You are correct about my experiences with a type writer. I probably haven’t touched one since I was 8. (I’m 29 now)
Daniel. I respectfully disagree about the PDF being irrelevant. It’s the only official thing the white house has put forward authenticating his birth to the public. I’ll say again, I have no reason to believe that he wasn’t born here or that he isn’t qualified to hold office. I do have reason to believe upon my own examination that the pdf file at the very least has been tampered with. Obama could, if he wanted to, rescan the image and upload it again with no optimization to settle this once and for all, but I’ll admit, I probably wouldn’t do that either if I was in his position because it scores way more political points to paint the nay-sayers as radical and fringe.
Maybe I’m just to jaded about politicians continually lying to us.
I’m a fiscally conservative, pro-choice, pro gay marriage. athiest. Libertarian is probably my best fit politically but at the end of the day I just don’t care. Both parties frustrate me to no end. I do love this country as I’m sure all of you do to. Thanks for the debate.
Okay, seriously I’ve been awake for far too long. Good night
But we’re not talking about Photoshop. We’re talking about compression algorithms, which you don’t say you have any sort of expertise in.
Let me ask you this way. You seem to say, “These anomalies, I can’t explain, therefore it must be forgery.”
But you can’t explain them if you point to forgery either. Do you really think that Obama would hire an incompetent forger? If you were making this image with your photoshop skills, would you put one half of one word in one layer while leaving one half of the word in the background layer? Why? How does that affect the chance that it was made by forgery?
On the other hand, a natural algorithm would do that. It doesn’t care or know where one word starts, or one word ends. It just looks for things that it thinks are text. If a line intersects the text, the algorithm might not identify that as text, and therefore leave it in the background.
Kevin- you have been polite and really don’t sound like our typical concern trolls, so I want to have a conversation with you.
I understand that you have a concern about the PDF- but I want you to step back and think about why that PDF is important.
Let me lay this all out for you.
In 2008 there were scurilous rumors about Barack Obama- about his name and where he was born. So to stop those rumors Barack Obama posted online a copy of his Certication of Birth from Hawaii- which showed among other things that he was born in Hawaii.
Birthers- an emerging conspiracy group- immediately claimed that this COLB was a fake- with a myriad of reasons why it was a fake but most consistantly that the COLB was not a ‘real Birth Certificate’- that a ‘real Birth Certificate’ had to have a doctors signature etc, etc.
So the State of Hawaii confirmed that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.
End of story a reasonable person might think. But Birthers kept promoting the story.
So in 2011, President Obama asked the State of Hawaii to make an exception to their rules and issue a certified photocopy of his original birth certificate.
As per the State of Hawaii’s statement- which you have read- these two copies were given to Obama’s attorney to be taken to the President.
At a press conference, President Obama showed the certified copies to reporters and many of them even handled the certified copies, one- Savannah Guthrie, even took a photo of one of them with her cell phone, and published that photo on line.
So we know that dozens of people saw these hard copy certified birth certificates.
We also know that the State of Hawaii has confirmed that President Obama posted a copy of these certificates online.
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html
On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.
We also know that since 2008, the State of Hawaii has consistantly stated that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, and that the COLB he posted was correct.
Now- what is the Birth Certificate important for?
To establish place and date of birth.
Hawaii has confirmed both repeatedly. Hawaii has confirmed that what the President has posted- both the COLB and the 2011 BC are accurate.
Do you agree then- that the vital information on the birth certificate has been verified beyond any reasonable doubt?
Do you also agree then- that the image that the President posted in 2011 appears to the State of Hawaii- and to the reporters who saw the certified copies in 2011 to be so similiar as to appear to be the same?
If so- why do you think that the format of the document that was posted even matters?
See, I am no document expert at all. I know nothing about compression. I find these discussions ridiculous- because the State of Hawaii keeps telling us that the information on the image we have seen is correct.
Can you explain any scenario where it makes sense to you that such alteration would matter even if it occurred- given that the State of Hawaii says that all of the information presented is accurate?
The STATE OF HAWAII is the relevant authority for the verification of the President’s birth information.
The STATE OF HAWAII has confirmed to the public that the President was born in Hawaii on August 4th, 1961.
http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf
Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?
Are you familiar with Mixed Raster Content (MRC) compression? I’m not a computer expert so my understanding is limited, but as I understand it MRC works like this.
First, it was a method designed in the late 1990s by guys like Professor de Quieroz to reduce the file size of compound documents (documents that contain both images and text).
The MRC standard apparently works by separating what the software determines is text from what it determines is image. It then compresses the different layers differently. In the case of elements that it considers to be an image, it compresses it more severely because an image can lose fine details and still be recognizable. But the elements that it considers to be text, it reduces less severely because you want the text to keep the detail and remain readable. That’s why the greenback layer is at a lower resolution (bigger pixels) than the text layers.
That is the full extent of my understanding please visit this site NBC’s website and ask NBC for a more technical explanation.
With regards to the “white dots” with the green background behind them, here’s a theory. Those dots are very small and also isolated from the rest of the text. So the software, for whatever reason maybe color value, considered them to be text and placed them on their own layers. Then it compressed the various layers. When it compresses the greenback ground layer the spaces where the dots were get filled by the green color.
Again visit NBC’s site and ask NBC for a better and more technical explanation.
And you still stubbornly refuse to answer a very common sense question.
Why would a forger produce a document that has EXACTLY the same information authenticated by the state of Hawaii?
The information is the same.
But evidently the meaning of that is beyond your grasp.
The state of Hawaii is the relevant legal authority.
You’re making faces in the clouds produced by the birther smoke machine.
That’s ridiculous.
Two things:
Whoever the “investigators” are you do understand that they have absolutely no police powers in the state of Arizona, don’t you? Does that concern you at all? Have you ever seen a real investigation handled this way?
As far as the folks who saw the certified copy in the White House press room I’m wondering if you extend that same courtesy to the Hawaii officials who have repeatedly affirmed that Obama was born in Hawaii and that the images we have seen accurately reflect the information in their permanent records?
Then you must have credible evidence that the HDOH and the administration of the state of Hawaii has committed malfeasance.
Are you accusing the state of Hawaii of fraud and malfeasance?
http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2009/09-063.pdf
Actually he (I’m assuming you mean Paul Irey) has been refuted at this website previously.
But if you want a different site to review the typeface stuff go to the following:
June 12th, 2011
Why Irey is an idiot, Part 1
June 17th, 2011 with a comment posted by Paul Irey himself:
Why Irey is an idiot, Part 2
July 9th, 2011
Why Irey is an idiot, Part 3
The comments section of that last article should not be missed.
Have a good sleep.
What difference does that make? She’s also a deranged PUMA, and that DOES make a difference, when it comes to her credibility.
Maybe when it comes to handwriting examination. Maybe. What’s that got to do with anything?
A typesetter talking about a document produced by another process? Nope. Wrong expert. Like Mara Zebest, his primary qualification is that he could be relied upon to produce the desired result.
As if you had any “analyses of credible professionals”.
That’s just absurd. This “credible” nonsense of yours is like a thin layer of snow on a dungheap.
You’re just trying to make LIES seem as credible as the truth, and that’s a despicable enterprise. There’s nothing good and decent about that.
Hear, hear.
Who exactly is going to resolve it? No court is going to touch it because the matter is settled in the eyes of the law: Obama was born in Hawaii because Hawaii says so.
The PDF is nothing more than a picture and it has no legal standing or bearing on anything……except to people unwilling to accept reality.
I feel your pain, Kev. I’m a bit that way about birthers continually lying to us. I’m way past jaded over people trying to make those lies seem righteous.
The mind reels.
What’s really mind boggling is that an allegedly rational person evidently can’t comprehend the simple concepts of political enemies, smear tactics, relevant legal and issuing authority and matching information.
Citing the “americanthinker” site as a credible source was a strong first clue.
Yes, 8 bit jpeg compression will fill the background with an ‘average color’. gsgs has done some excellent experiments here. Which explains why there is bleeding in all the instances. You should ask yourself, why would there be such imperfect bleeding of color onto the otherwise white background.
Now the specks, continue to me to be the most puzzling. Are they attempts to enhance the document, are they artifacts? Luckily they are not really important as they are far away from the text.
As I have argued, using a lot of the work by gsgs, there are many artifacts which are quite easy to explain through algorithm and harder to explain by forgery.
That’s the standard to which one should hold the evaluation of the document. When algorithms are more likely, claims of forgery become poorly substantiated, especially since there is just no good explanation for the various artifacts in this highly compressed documents, that point to forgery.
And most of them I believe can be explained by the workflow and algorithmic processes.
That’s where the CCP dropped the ball.
The bottom set of specks seem to be associated with the raised seal.
Interesting observation. They are pretty weird. Will further investigate. Never a boring moment. But I believe that, other than these white specks, nothing remains that cannot be better explained by understanding workflow and (compression) algorithms
I thought they might be from the scanner light reflecting off the peaks that form the bumps of the seal. Like a mountain range at sunset or sunrise.
The location of the seal and the specks do not line up.
They seem to line up to me, as long as you include the caduceus.
… and the text on the seal. If you look at the Guthrie photo, for most of the seal, only the outer double ring is clearly visible. But at the bottom, you can see some of the text – it looks like the end of STATE and the beginning of HAWAII, plus you can sort of see something in the center, almost looks like a moire effect.
And the white specks are at about the same spot as the features I mentioned.
I recommend that you read this story in the Phoenix New Times which examines the qualifications of the people who make up Arpaio’s “posse.”
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2009/09/joe_arpaios_active_posse_roste.php
Kevin wants the PDF to be the focus of debate, and have some sort of legal proceeding to decide, once and for all, whether the PDF is fake. Kevin resists all attempts to function in the real world.
We have had several legal proceedings already to determine if Pres. Obama is qualified. First, we held an election. It was in all the papers. You could not have missed it. The Birther contingent had every opportunity to persuade the voters that Pres. Obama was not qualified. Including the story about the PDF being “fake.” The voters did not agree. (In my state Gov. Romney won.)
Then the electoral college met. There were a few electors who expressed doubt about Pres. Obama (from Arizona, I believe), but in the end the Electoral College picked Pres. Obama over Gov. Romney. It was not for lack of trying. I’m sure a fair number of electors heard from Dr. Taitz, and then she sued all of them. In my state our Republican Governor was the prevailing party in Ankeny v. Daniel.
Then Congress met to review the Electoral College results. Despite needing only 1 representative and 1 senator to force a debate, and despite a campaign by the Birthers to alert Congress to what they thought were deficiencies in the President’s documents, the Birthers were unable to garner a single vote to debate the subject. You can read here and elsewhere of multiple mailings by Birthers like Dr. Taitz to Congress about the President’s lack of papers.
Then the Chief Justice swore in Pres. Obama. He even did it twice. I think Dr. Taitz confronted him once, in person, and she has certainly, along with other Birthers, told the Chief Justice that the President is not a citizen. He does not appear to have been persuaded. He’s a smart guy. Went to one of those fancy private schools. (I went to a public school.)
That makes Pres. Obama the President. Right according to the Constitution.
Now if you want to get rid of him, you need to impeach him. High crimes and misdemeanors are pretty much whatever the House says they are. And the Republicans control the House. Lord knows they are distressed by Pres. Obama. Some say so every day. And in the last few days their distress has increased over Benghazi, the IRS, the NSA, Obamacare (still), etc. Every now and then one of them says the “I” word. Every now and then one of them flirts with the Birthers. This is a body who not only thinks that not many pregnancies result from rape, but in the face of last year’s election results, that it is wise to display their ignorance on the steps of the Capitol. In fact, my guess is that a few Congressmen think the Earth is flat. Some think the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Yet not one of them has issued a subpoena or called a hearing to check out the President’s papers.
And why is that? Instead of fussing over a PDF image on the Internet (which Dr. Taitz says CANNOT be properly evaluated by a real expert), why don’t you address reality. Why is it that the folks we put in charge of this process have absolutely no interest in pursuing this issue? Could it be because they believe the State of Hawaii, which under a Republican Governor said that Pres. Obama was born there. Said it several times. Issued at least three birth certificates. Issued certifications upon request to the proper authorities in Arizona and, I think, Kansas. The Republican officials who received those certifications accepted them without question.
And you want a court proceeding to check out something you saw on the Internet? If have have questions about what you saw on the Internet, ask Snopes. If you want to figure out how to pick a President, read the Constitution. This is not Nazi Germany. Pres. Obama does not need “papers.” “Papers” only asked of the only Black man ever elected President.
You are new to this site. I’m a retired Air Force Lt. Col. I’m a registered Republican and serve on my Republican County Committee. My wife and I donated the maximum to Gov. Romney and more to some PACS. I’m a life member of the NRA. We are Pro-life. And we do not want Mrs. Clinton and soon to be Senator Booker be our next President and Vice-President because our party is captured by folks who are asking about PDFs on the Internet. This country has serious problems which need serious people. We cannot solve any of our country’s problems by a fascination with images over reality.
Let me look closer again… Foolish me, I looked at the COLB… Yes you are right…
Another one bites the dust…
I will be documenting all these findings.
IMO, the DOH uses two different stamps depending on where the registrar’s stamp is placed (on the front or on the back of the document).
hear hear.
Though I am a Democrat(more by default than by choice), I have no interest in seeing the Republican Party actually become so minimalized as to no longer be a check on the more whacky members of my party.
Luckily the more rational Republicans have treated Birthers as the political lepers that they are- for being associated with tin foil wearing Birthers would be political suicide for the party.
Seriously- if Birthers can’t even get lame duck Michelle Bachmann- who loves her some crazy ass theories- to come to their side then there is no hope that they will find a Congressman crazy enough for them.
Here is a report from Butterdezillion where she tries to compare the seal on a COLB to the seal on the Guthrie photo.
Someone sent her a Hawaii COLB. The first three pictures are of that seal. In the first two pictures the writing in the seal is backwards. This is on the front of the BC. On the backside of the BC, where Dr. Onaka’s stamp is the writing in the seal is in the correct orientation.
http://butterdezillion.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/guthrie-seal-v-l-seal.pdf
IMO, the DOH always puts the raised part of the seal on the side where the vital record information is printed. And depending on where Dr. Onaka’s stamp is, the writing in the seal is either backwards or forwards when viewed from the front of the document.
My observation has been that the raised part of the seal is always on the same face as the stamp and signature. This is how it is supposed to be done (as a PE, I have my own embosser, so some experience at this – I got it backwards the first time I used my embosser and had to redo it).
Check out factcheck.org pictures of President Obama’s COLB. The raised portion appears to be on the side with the vital records information and the registrar stamp is on the back.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/birth_certificate_1.jpg
IMO, Hawaii keeps the raised part on the side with the info. and makes sure that the lettering in the seal is oriented to be read correctly on the side where the registrar stamp is placed.
Ah, I did a ****-poor job of conveying what I really meant. The text should always align with the stamp/signature, it doesn’t matter which face gets embossed. I do remember noting a consistency in the embossing wrt the stamp/signature, but I forgot which way it went. This was earlier in the year. Do you have an example where the stamp and raised seal are on the same face as the record?
According to the American Notary Society, of which Hawaii is a member, for their information according to Hawaiian Notary statues: You can either use the embosser or the stamp — but NOT both.
ex animo
davidfarrar
What is the relevance of that? Nobody notarized Obama’s birth certificate.
But birth certificates aren’t notarized, they are certified. Notaries just attest that they witnessed the signature, they don’t say anything about the accuracy of the content of the document. The certifier of a vital event attests that the information on the document is correct. They are apples and oranges.
Besides, the State Department requires birth certificates have both a “Registrar’s signature” and a “Raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal of issuing authority”. I believe Hawaii (and other states) require both a signature and a seal.
Hey, David, too bad you didn’t have this notarized:
http://teapartyorg.ning.com/forum/topics/i-will-file-against-mitt-romney-if-he-is-nominated
Whatever became of that, anyway?
I would refuse to pay traffic fines and taxes. You should not put up with an illegal president. At least write to Iran and ask for help. Look at Snowden – he defected to China.
Do more than pound away at your keyboard. C’mon – take action!
BTW, why would a BC be notarized?
ex lax
misha marinsky
“None other than Harvard’s recently appointed Ezra Pound Chair on Common Law…I am speaking, of course, of one of the most accomplished “birther” attorneys in the nation: Mario Apuzzo…(now a recognized expert on the English common law) “.
Thanks. You gave me a good laugh. Ezra Pound was a fascist and vicious anti-Semite, who lived in Italy during the war and as Uncle Ez, broadcast a steady stream of anti-US and anti-Semitic diatribes. He got off easy – a stint in St. Elizabeth’s instead of the electric chair.
Mario Apuzzo is a third-rate DWI lawyer. Suddenly, he and a fifth-rate dentist are “constitutional experts.” That’s like a shade tree mechanic promotes himself as an Indy 500 team mechanic, because he lives in Indianapolis.
Don’t give up your day job. You’ll never make it in stand-up. Also, trim your beard.
ex lax
misha marinsky
Because he gets all giggly, nervous and excited every time his steaming piles of crap and asinine non-sequiturs are posted anywhere on the interwebs. And evidently, it’s his full time employment.
Ricky & Whatever4 ,
I stand corrected. Thank you.
ex animo
davidfarrar
Not that I recall. The early ones (1960s) do but it the seals are ginormous compared to the current version.
All the COLBs seem to be stamped on the back. President Obama’s LFBC might be the only one. Did you say that you could make out some of the writing?