I’ve been around vital statistics since 1977 when I worked with a vital statistics office in Greenville County, South Carolina, that issued birth certificates and I wrote computer software that printed them. More recently, I served for two years on the National Association for Public Information Statistics and Information Systems (NAPHSIS) Fraud Prevention Committee, and participated in numerous conference calls on fraud prevention, and attended national presentations on vital records fraud and identity theft. I’ve looked over the shoulders of vital records staffers as they process births. I have discussed security features with representatives from the American Banknote Company, and I have had conversations at the state and local level with registrars on security and fraud issues. I have been inside the secure vaults where actual birth certificates are stored. I know the controls on vital records systems to prevent fraud. I know what a “six pack” is. I am also familiar with the Inspector General’s report on Vital Records fraud. Even today I still do a little occasional contract work on state vital records systems. I consider myself much more expert in the field than the average person and certainly more than any birther.
Birther notions of how Obama’s certificate might be a fake are total nonsense, and utterly disconnected from the real world and actual fraud scenarios. They know nothing about vital records, and just make up fantastic and impossible stories. If you could go to the Hawaii Department of Health today and look at the bound volume (reportedly in the Director’s office safe), and could you look at the microfilm records from 1961, you would unquestionably find Barack Obama’s certificate right there amongst all the others from that time. If Barack Obama’s birth certificate is a fake, it was faked in 1961 and there are no other remotely-possible alternatives.
The usual fraud scenario involves a delayed report1, a report of a birth made long after the fact. Fraud in hospital births like Obama’s, reported timely, is virtually unheard of. However, there is the always-possible human factor. I knew about the New Jersey case when it happened in 2004: A deputy county registrar named Jean Anderson in the Hudson County Office of Vital Statistics was bribed to insert records into the County files and then issued birth certificates from the fake records. Even today, some county systems are vulnerable. This particular scenario involved the insertion of birth records for adults. Having personally worked on the New Jersey state vital records system (I worked with state registrar Joe Komosinski long before he became state registrar), I know that this scenario would be impossible at the state level due to controls in place (counties were not using the state system in New Jersey in 2004). Now certificates are automatically numbered and insertions are logged and time-stamped, but in pre-computer days it would be possible for a corrupt state or hospital staffer to insert a false record into the stream of incoming paper documents.
To forge Obama’s birth certificate, it would be necessary to create a fake certificate in early August of 1961, filled out to look like it came from Kapi’olani Hospital, with a fake signature from Dr. Sinclair (or an authentic one if he were the forger). Once inserted into the work flow at the State Department of Health, the certificate would have been registered, numbered, filed and reported to the newspapers just like certificates for all the rest born that month. [Note: the preceding sentence was not meant to imply any particular order in the steps listed.] Since the certificate must have come either from the hospital or the state vital records bureau, it would appear authentic in every way.
All this stuff about typewriters from Irey, about scanners from Vogt, about Onaka’s smiley face, about race codes from Crosby, about Smith’s foot-print inked certificate, about PDF layers from Zullo’s “experts” and all the rest of the ignorant speculation from the birthers is so much horse manure. If Obama’s record was faked, look to Verna K. Lee or David A. Sinclair, not some imaginary genius/idiot forger in the White House named Mike. (I hasten to add that I am firmly convinced that no forger exists.) And guess what, birthers? Looking at the original document or microfilm in Hawaii isn’t going to resolve anything. What you will find is perfect in every regard; it’s a dead end. You might as well pick up the goal posts now and plant them on Uranus.
Birthers have no evidence whatsoever that will stand up to scrutiny that Barack Obama wasn’t born in Honolulu, and they never will. Despite my remotely-possible scenario, there is no reason to doubt the Encyclopedia Britannica when it says Barack Obama was born in Honolulu.2 The truth is out there, but the birthers are determined not to believe it. Birtherism is a story about birthers, not about Obama.
1The only known case of vital records fraud from Hawaii (before it became a state) was a delayed registration. Actually the most common fraud scenario involves someone using an authentic certificate that doesn’t belong to them.
2INS records show that Barack Obama’s father did not leave the US in 1961, and an INS statistical report proves his mother didn’t travel from Kenya. Barack Obama might have been born in Topeka, but not Mombasa.
Looking at the original document or microfilm in Hawaii isn’t going to resolve anything.
But it is something that birthers are almost with near certainty are never going to get. Yet they can make such demands and claim that the President is hiding from such “reasonable” inquiries.
Doc says: “Birtherism is story about about birthers, not about Obama.”
That is it in nine words!
E’gad. Did I type that? [channeling Orly Taitz]
Updated to say: Birtherism is a story about birthers, not about Obama.”
We knew what you meant. Orly is another story.
“How Obama’s birth certificate could have been faked”
As an officer in the International Jewish Conspiracy™, I wish to remind you that you made an agreement with us and Soros.
Kapish?
“You might as well pick up the goal posts now and plant them on Uranus.”
You could also have used “up” or “in.” I would also have accepted “between.”
Whose anus?
[Mr. Nash is generally banned on this blog. I only made an exception for the 1000 word challenge article he submitted. Of course the following is nonsense, since a modern digital counterfeit doesn’t get Obama’s birth certificate into the Hawaii Department of Health’s computer system in 2001, nor in the Honolulu newspapers in 1961. Further comments by Nash on this thread or elsewhere will be deleted. Doc.]
You’re premise is fatally flawed since the easiest means to create a counterfeit is digitally. But it would have to contain original text from what was typed up from the mother or grandparent’s affidavit. Obama’s bc clearly contains old digitally extracted microfilm text imagery so no birther looking at it can assume that it is 100% fabricate in the digital age. It is too authentic looking for that to be assumed.
But that does not preclude the possibility of digitally altering various elements albeit at a stage not revealed by the pdf. A completed fake could easily be inserted into the Hawaiian vital records database and automatically assumed to reflect what is in the microfilm which is never checked (nor the original paper documents).
Since no imagery of a true copy has or ever will be made public, one has to take on faith that what is seen in the abstract is a faithful representation of an original. With all that rests on that assumption, reasonable people have no legitimate basis on which to ground such a all-trusting assumption. Nor on the word of strong obama supporters in charge of the place.
But…a thought occurred to me while reading your essay, and it is a question as to how could obama have to steal another’s registration number? -unless he was never registered at all? The assumption is that his birth was registered, the newspapers printed the vital statistics that included his name (not birth place) and the two go hand-on-hand. But the newspaper clipping images would also have to be fake because if he was really registered then he would have had a registration number and would not have to steal one from another deceased baby’s birth certificate. He could have used his own number, unless he was register a long time later, -which isn’t something that is suspected based on anything.
No one can prove that the newspaper images are not frauds since they seem to have come from only one source that pretended to be two independent sources. I recall that a reward was offered for anyone who could produce an original newspaper from the dates of the obama mention.
So it seems the conversation may need to take a new direction because of the current assumption that the newspaper reports are genuine, indicting an Obama registration, indicating no need for a phony registration number.
But since the short form gives only a “filed” date instead of the required “accepted” date, it is conceivable that a registration was filed but not accepted without further proof of things like place of birth or citizenship of the mother or Hawaiian residency. If required information was never delivered , then no birth certificate would have been issued, but that is separate from the function of sending information to the newspapers. That could have been compiled from all filed documents rather than all accepted documents.
So although the questions have changed, the answers are still elusive and unavailable.
Cue the birthers screaming “OBOT ADMITS OBAMA FRAUD” stupidity in 5… 4… 3… 2…
Rather, cue the cries of “a longstanding commie plot” in 3… 2… 1…
“What you will find is perfect in every regard…”
OK. Then there’s no reason not to let Zullo or anyone else look at the original, and obama’s been selfishly wasting your dwindling time.
Just because you say something, doesn’t make it so. What makes your opinion anymore valid than the other experts?
You offer no proof to back up what you say. Only your so-called experience. No proof of that either.
Huh. It took me about 5 rereadings to figure out what was wrong. There must be something there related to confirmational bias, or psychology or perception or something about seeing what you expect to see.
http://weknowawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/read-that-wrong.jpeg
Fooled two times. 😉
This is very close to the (not quite) ultimate goalpost we’ve been talking about for some time – “even if the vault document is genuine, who knows if its data are correct?”.
Which is why we have people like David “ex nix” Farrar rambling on about “required corroborating evidence” (for which birthers could again play the “forged… incorrect data… corroborating evidence” game ad infinitum).
Indeed the only conspiracy which would only have required a handful of people is the one that started in 1961.
But few birthers pursue it since they have placed their bets on a scenario that requires Obama to be “in on it”, or even be the forger himself. Any scenario that allows him to claim “I never knew” is unacceptable to them.
Just to add a bit to your advocatus diaboli what-if scenario:
I know many people say a conspiracy in 1961 is outlandish because it entails the “so they planned in 1961 to put this guy in the White House decades later” meme, but that ain’t necessarily so. If you assume a more realistic scenario, a possible conspiracy theory would only be “they wanted to make the child American-born and were a bit too eager, that’s why they did something they didn’t have to do”. In that scenario, the child running for President 47 years later was a coincidence, not a pre-planned event.
Not that any of this makes a conspiracy any more probable, of course.
Mr. Nash, the Nazi, is back to say we can’t trust the folks in Hawaii who are strong Obama supporters.
Except the first time around, they weren’t. Gov. Lingle is a Republican and supported Sen. McCain.
So Mr. Nash, just like Helen, in addition to your Nazi theory that mixed race persons can never be natural born, has your subconscious learned of any evidence that the President was born elsewhere? Come on. That’s a simple question. Could be answered “yes” or “no.” If yes, do tell. Where’s the evidence?
Well done. AND, let us not forget that birther sites have not even shown that Obama’s mother had a passport in 1961—and very few 18-year-olds did.
Moreover, they ignore the fact that very very few women traveled late in pregnancy in 1961 because of the relatively high rate of stillbirths. Yet, they want people to assume that Obama’s mother was one of the very few who had a passport and one of the very very few pregnant women who traveled abroad AND that Obama’s birth certificate is forged and that the officials of both parties in Hawaii are lying (and the Index Data and the teacher who wrote home).
The birth certificate not being forged alone is sufficient, of course. Still, the fact that birther sites have not even shown that Obama’s mother had a passport is also an important fundamental point.
Who is “you” and who are the “other experts?”
If you are talking about me, I explained my expertise. Who are these other experts?
I’ll take that, if the birthers also agree that the following are full of crap:
Irey
Taitz
Berg
Pappit
Gallups
Zullo
Corsi
Zebest
Vogt
Polland
et al
[Mr. Nash is generally banned on this blog. I only made an exception for the 1000 word challenge article he submitted…Further comments by Nash on this thread or elsewhere will be deleted. Doc.]
I will remember CO₂ofLife every time I go into the voting booth.
[Mr. Nash is generally banned on this blog. I only made an exception for the 1000 word challenge article he submitted…Further comments by Nash on this thread or elsewhere will be deleted. Doc.]
Wise decision, Doc. No one can accuse you of not letting him have his say.
It’s not just that but they think she somehow traveled alone (Mr Obama according to INS records never left the US during that time period) to see a family the majority of which didn’t speak English and most likely would have resented her since Mr Obama was already married. Not only that but then she had birth in a hospital far away from the major port of entry and away from Obama Sr’s family. The whole trip would have taken her days and traveling that late in the pregnancy back then would have been dangerous. 1961 didn’t have a lot of the modern comforts Sarah Palin would have had when she went into labor with trig.
how do haye’s credentials compare with woodman’s, the antibirthers’ oracle.
One thing that I always like to point out is that Kenya was at the tail end of a Civil war called the Mau Mau uprising- which was widely reported in the Western Press because of the atrocities that were being committed.
So not only was this 18 year old White pregnant woman supposedly travelling alone to a third world – with unknown medical faciliities to give birth- she was travelling to a place that the West was recoiling from the atrocities committed their- against white people.
Birthers hear hoof prints and they not only don’t assume they are horses, they don’t assume zebra’s- they assume unicorns.
Goalposter- OK. Then there’s no reason not to let Zullo or anyone else look at the original, and obama’s been selfishly wasting your dwindling time.
Check me on this.. But there’s this perception that Obama can sign some kind of waiver to allow his Vault BC for inspection.. I don’t believe that’s the case.
Vital records are property of the State, not the individual. Obama doesn’t have ownership rights to the “vault copy”… Only Hawaii does. All Obama can release is what has been sent to him by the State, which is a copy.
FYI, the commemorative BC that the hospital gave your mommy and daddy for your baby box isn’t the actual birth certificate.
Woodman’s comments on the electronic copy of the birth certificate are those of a computer professional, and bear some weight of expertise (which Hayes does not appear to have).
We will have to wait to see what Hayes says in his report before we can determine whether he is credentialed to say it.
About the only thing Hayes could say under his credentials is that one of the signatures is forged, comparing it to unquestioned examples of those signatures. Even that is dodgy because a) he’s not looking at originals and b) reliability of comparisons is less when someone is intentionally disguising their signature.
If the Hayes’ report goes outside of the area of handwriting, then he’s just another conspiracy nut who knows nothing special.
Hayes might be able to weigh in on whether Dr. Onaka is an impulsive Taurus who likes creative souls, classic poetry, long walks in the rain and the laughter of children. See that looping curve in the letter k? That means he has a special gift for details.
Dr. C., I found your information and expertise fascinating. During the entire course of the so called Arpaio investigation, has M. Zullo or Sheriff J. Arpaio ever once reached out to you for any assistance with their investigation? Would you have assisted them in the early stages of the investigation had they asked? Was the investigation flawed from the beginning because of their reliance on so many with a specific agenda?
The investigation is “flawed” because their is no investigation and that’s because there are no investigators with police powers involved in whatever they are doing…..besides Zullo appearing on various internet radio shows and at Tea Party gatherings.
Any day now.
3 ring circus.
It’s not just Doc C they didn’t even contact. You’d think the first call they would have made would have been to the Hawaii DOH but they didn’t do that. Ivan Zatkovich, Neal Krawetz, Jon Berryhill. John Woodman volunteered wrote them emails directed him to his book and they ignored it, never even gave him the courtesy of responding. Instead they turned to pre-existing birthers like Jerome Corsi, Mara Zebest and Paul Irey.
the tell-tale sign that the “investigation” was going to be bunk was that they already had expert opinion in ivan zatkovich ( thru WND ). to my knowledge the CCP have never cited or mentioned zatkovich.
Of course. They already had their conclusion. “Investigating” was a ridiculous smokescreen which obviously worked on gullible birthers. They knew their marks well. Birther bigots will pay good money to fight the “ebil userper”.
Dr,C, Surely you jest!
“The only known case of vital records fraud from Hawaii (before it became a state) was a delayed registration. Actually the most common fraud scenario involves someone using an authentic certificate that doesn’t belong to them.”
This sentence construction is worth of note for its ability to mean two things at the same time.
Does it mean that there was only one count of vital records fraud before it became a state,or after it became a state?
Would you think that vital records fraud was non -existent during the term of the Hawaiian government before or after the Statehood.
If the Federal Government states that birth certificate fraud is rampant in the United States and then you state that there was no fraud in Hawaii.
It is possible that the loose requirements before 1960 made fraud un-necessary in Hawaii, and therefore there was little fraud.
But to think that Hawaii does not have that type of fraud is strange.
Now to further the confusion the following is possible today.
A governmental agency may request a new birth certificate for purposes necessary.
the DOH will issue a new birth certificate using the original date and change the information on it.
So, given enough reason, a dead person’s certificate can be revamped with new name, and the necessary changes made in all of the computer information, and that would be hard to discover.
Heck, you know that is possible given the powers of the computers today,do you not!
Zullo and Gallups claim that the fake birth certificate is the greatest crime in the history the country, perhaps the world. Why has the investigation been entrusted to a used car salesman?
We all know they did the “investigation” backwards. They came to a conclusion and then looked for evidence to support it and rejected anything that didn’t. It is inductive reasoning and is the very definition of confirmation bias.
There is not a single aspect of this alleged investigation that would withstand scrutiny by any experienced attorney doing cross examination. It might even be possible that Zullo would end up arrested for perjury or worse if he ever testifies under oath. He could already be arrested based on the affidavits, but I have never heard of anyone charged with perjury based on an affidavit alone.
all true,except for the fact that the travel could have taken place in the 3-5th month of pregnancy,not during the last month.
Further, 1961 had a lot of comforts,including the stuff we have today.
If you are talking about Kenya, perhaps in the country it was primative,but the cities were modern as it was run by the British!
It is common to think of other countrys as lacking in what we have!
I served with reasonable people. I know reasonable people. Reasonable people are friends of mine.
Mr. Nash, you’re not a reasonable person!
I looked up Zatkovich’s conclusion.
“All of the modifications to the PDF document that can be identified are consistent with someone enhancing the legibility of the document. It is possible that in addition to enhancing the legibility of the document that the content of the document was also changed. There is no specific evidence of how or why that content would have been changed, but the evidence clearly indicates that the document was changed .”
And how did it support birther conclusions? Changed by enhancing legibility. We know by the DOH’s verification that the content of the document matches the original on file
Scott,
Mr. Woodman didn’t rely on his credentials, but rather the scientific method. In other words, his argument stands on its own merits (independent of who gave it) rather than some authority he claimed. Also, he wasn’t addressing the issue of forgery, but rather establishing that all of the birther arguments that the LFBC was forged were fallacious. The mere fact that you try to attack his credibility (rather than the credibility of his arguments which is what matters) suggests that you don’t understand the scientific method.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. The only case I know of is that of Sun Yat-Sen, before Hawaii became a state. See article here:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/hawaiian-birth-certificate-its-a-fake/
I’ve searched the Internet and records available to me, and found no other. I am not saying that there is no other, but birthers nor their opponents have not uncovered any. I would take this to mean that certificate fraud in Hawaii is rare.
By the way, Zatkovich was actually wrong in some of the things he said, basing conclusions on things like “I do not know of any…” when indeed there are some he didn’t know about. He was going beyond his expertise.
OH, THE IRONY.
Do you folks even bother to listen to the words coming out of your mouths?
Compared to the birther, whose argument boils down to “based on my expertise, there is no way that this anomaly can be anything other than man made.” Woodman showed how the anomaly occurred with automatic processing. The work of NBC and Vicklund did the same: they showed by counterexample (not a claim to expertise) that the birthers were wrong, not only wrong but inexpert.
Woodman’s credentials are that he is sane and articulate.
I was going to write a similar comment. Zatkovich was right in his main conclusions but wrong or incomplete on the details.
From what we have learned the PDF was the product of a work flow process that consisted of scanning on a Xerox WorkCentre then being rotated and saved on a Mac in Preview. It explains every artifact. The software functioned to make a small PDF that still looked a lot like the original. All the faux experts can pack up and head home. The party is over.
Only the INS statistical report doesn’t say when US citizens WENT to Kenya; they say when they RETURNED to the US from Kenya, and any number of things, including student registrations PROVE that Ann Dunham was in the United States between July 1, 1961 and June 30, 1962, the period covered by the report. Obama was born in Hawaii. Deal with it.
Unfortunately, the party is not over. Birthers are just moving the goalposts.
Believe it or not, I was thinking of a really distant place and since Pluto is not a planet any more (I guess) the next distant planet that came to mind was Uranus. Only after I typed the sentence did I realize what it sounded like. It sounded like comedy gold.
In most jurisdictions, that takes a court order.
Um no not exactly since birthers claim she went overseas to have the baby and then rushed back after the baby was born to somehow get citizenship or something? So no there’s no proof she had a passport in 1961. The baby would have needed a passport to enter the country. So going over there at 3-5 months of pregnancy makes no sense and no birther has even made that stupid claim.
No it did not have comforts like say direct flights to Kenya, air travel was prohibitively expensive back then especially for a college student. Also Mombassa where birthers claim Obama was born is far away from the main port of entry. It’s at least a 10 hour drive along a dirt road. The hospital would not have been modernized. So again your story holds no weight
Except it wasn’t back then and that’s for like witness protection purposes. What sense does it make to falsify a document for a person and then that person runs for President which makes him a very visible person. Okay I’m starting to think this troll is another traderjack sock puppet.
The semiliterate b.s. does reek of trolljack.
A six-month stay at the New Stanley Hotel, with a few side trips to Treetops, Mt. Kilimanjaro, Mombasa, a safari to hunt elephants, check out the flamingos at Lake Nakuru. Kenya on $5.00 a day.
It’s an overnight train trip, with frequent stops for animals on the tracks. The hospital at the time got its electricity from a cable strung along trees. The hospital was dependent on a generator.
It is traderjack.
@Misha Marinsky
“It is traitorjack.”
FIFY
They can’t because of the dribble. 🙂
Moot point. Counterfeit money is produced all the time, yet no-one doubts the money in your pocket is genuine, or would claim that a $100 bill on its own does not constitute legal currency anymore. So even if there is BC fraud in Hawaii, it doesn’t invalidate all Hawaiian BC’s. *yawn*
But you see thats why we need to see the origubal record on file in the vault…
… which is a fake.
How did you determine the date of birth?
ex animo
davidfarrar
Count the rings.
ex anum
mishamarinsky
Mr. Farrar,
still not keeping your promise to accept Judge Mahili’s decision ? Yes, it is hard to have a non-white President. It is hard to know that a non-white has so much more power than you. That he is much more intelligent than you. And much richer as well.
Poor David.
I can’t quite get used to the fact that the moronic “david farrar” who posts here isn’t the well respected Kiwi blogger David Farrar. It’s a bit as if someone was posting racist drivel under the name “Paul Krugman” or the likes.
It’s generally considered to be the day that the baby leaves mommy’s tummy.
That’s not too clinical for you, is it?
someone on another thread said that the newspaper announcements were all phoned in around that time.
They lied.
Actually, there was a special cell phone number used, as well as e-mail.
They lied and you’re gullible. They came direct from the health bureau there was no “phoning” a birth in.
I think they were sent by fax.
Probably not in 1961. I suspect they just mailed them to the two papers.
Just checked and the announcements and the one in the Sunday Advertiser was in the August 13th edition. No date on the other paper. I believe Verna Lee signed the certificate on the 8th.
My guess is the Department of Health compiled a list of births regularly (weekly?) and mailed the list to the papers who then published them whenever they had a hole or on a schedule, like the Sunday paper.
Either that or George Soros was there orchestrating how they were going to be handled and making sure the grand conspiracy was off to a good start.
Your call.
I was seeing how gullible scott e was.
“A landmark year was 1964, in which the Xerox Corporation introduced (and patented) what many consider to be the first commercialized version of the modern fax machine, under the name (LDX) or Long Distance Xerography. This model was superseded two years later with a unit that would truly set the standard for fax machines for years to come. Up until this point facsimile machines were very expensive and hard to operate. In 1966, Xerox released the Magnafax Telecopier, a smaller, 46-pound facsimile machine. This unit was far easier to operate and could be connected to any standard telephone line. This machine was capable of transmitting a letter-sized document in about six minutes.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fax
Dr.C.As inspection of document on file is impossible, how can anyone attempt to verify
the truthfulness of the original.
It is possible to search the legal cases which indicate that the infomation on the bc was in error,or false, but it is impossible to search the documents.
there have been numerous cases of wrong father listed, etc.
But that is the only way to find them.
would you comment upon whether or not my posts conflict with your rules.
thanks
Stupidity, or carelessness,is evident.
Most people are natural born, some not,but not all are born citizens, let alone naturalborn citizen
if he was not born elsewhere, then he was born nowhere, right? You neglected to state where you believe he was born
That’s part of the plan, silly.
My point in this article is that if there is anything wrong with Obama’s certificate it goes back to 1961, and not to some modern forgery.
And the only way the original isn’t accurate (at least as to the facts of birth) is if some staff person at the Health Bureau or Kapiolani Hospital inserted a fake record into the official work flow.
Inspection of the document tells you nothing. The State of Hawaii has already said, signed and sealed what’s on the document no less than 4 times in addition to informal comments. Looking at the document doesn’t tell you whether somebody was bribed in 1961 to fake a birth certificate.
Looking at birth certificate originals doesn’t tell you anything about “wrong father listed.” There is simply nothing to be learned in the records of the Department of Health–that is what this article is about.
As for your comments, I am not aware of anything that violates the policies set forth in the Visitors Guide and the site Editorial Policy:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/visitor-guide/editorial-policy/
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/visitor-guide/
If your question is actually “why am I in moderation,” the short answer is that you aren’t (the comment to which I am responding wasn’t moderated). The reason you were in moderation before is technical, but not related to you personally or anything you commented.
Krypton
Actually, the Health Bureau sent announcements to the “Hawaii Newspaper Agency” that the newspapers got them from.
Well by that rule, we can’t trust strong Obama opponents either. So if they will shut up, I can close up shop and go home (figuratively).
OK, let me put forward a proposition to you and anyone else who would like to respond:
Everyone is born a natural born citizen of some place.
I don’t believe that a student registration for SADO proves that she was in Honolulu from her marriage until Aug4,1961.
I doubt that registration proves attendance, although it suggests attendence.
http://www.howdypodna.com/AnnaObamaUnivofWashingtonTranscript.jpg
Looking at her thansfer credits to WSU there appears to be only 8 credits transferred.
That would be about 1 semester,if I recall correctly.
You forgot to mention that the “Hawaii Newspaper Agency” was infiltrated by the CP-USA. I heard it from Gus Hall.
Au Contraire,Dr..C. the children of invading soldiers,and some subcategoies,are not.
Even in the USA there is a group called nationals,fromAmerican Samoa, I believe.
But they may be citizens.
The agency is the company that printed and distributed the Star-Bulletin and the Advertiser under the JOA (Joint Operating Agreement) that expired about a dozen years ago.
They probably also handled some of the things like births and deaths that appeared in both papers, Some JOA’s even handled classifieds, as I recall.
When a new owner couldn’t be found for the Star-Bulletin they merged and have operated as the Star-Advertiser.
Both papers owned and jointly operated the agency. It was one of many such operations designed to keep two active papers in a town that have, for the most part, gone away.
Good discovery! Have you notified Joseph Farah?
You are right, as there is nothing to be learned from a book you are not allowed to read.
I do not dipute that
And therefore you must believe that the content of abstracts from that book are absolutely trustworthy, and if you question it you are heretical!
Stretching a point in jest!
You really aren’t grasping what I am telling you. Read carefully:
The student registration proves that Ann Dunham was in the United States at some time (if only just for one minute) between August 5, 1961 and June 30, 1962.
If she were in Kenya on August 4, 1961, and in the United States some time between August 5 1961 and June 30, 1962, she would have had to travel to the United States during that time period (August 5, 1961 – June 30, 1962). The INS report says that no American citizen made such a trip by air in that time period. Birther conspiracy theories all say the reason for her not being in the United States for the birth was that she was traveling by air. Air travel is an essential part of the story, and without it there simply isn’t enough time. Therefore, she wasn’t in Kenya.
The children of invading armies are not natural born citizens of the invading country?
I didn’t say “natural born citizen of the United States;” I said natural born citizens of somewhere.
People born there are not American citizens, and are not to be trusted. The main party there is the CP-AS. It is a hotbed of subversion. If you do a google search, you’ll see posters of Putin all over the place.
But we are not talking about an abstract here, but a certified copy. The Hawaii Department of Health said:
“On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth.”
Is there a government document which lists the number of passports issued in a given state by year and by the person’s age? If such were available it could put another nail in this silly born in Kenya nonsense.
That is incorrect, while under common law they are not born citizens of the country that is being invaded, they are born citizens of the invading country.
Which is why children born on US soil to ambassadors are not natural born US citizens but they are natural born citizens of the country that sent the ambassador.
In my opinion, the birthers have serious trouble distinguishing scientific arguments (which stand or fail on their merits, not their author’s credentials), scholarly arguments, i.e. citation of valid authority (accurate representations of the position of those with relevant expertise), and fallacious appeals to authority (misrepresentation of real experts or citation of those without relevant expertise). Birthers (and, in my experience, conspiracy theorists in general) like to attack the credentials of people making scientific arguments (which is irrelevant) and to cherry pick quotes or otherwise misrepresent experts to “counter” scholarly arguments.
I think that this is the reason that birthers like Scott E and Helen can’t understand how devastating arguments like this article or John Woodman’s book are to their theories—not because they show that the obot arguments are true, but because they falsify such a large proportion of the birthers’ possibilities that any potential scenarios that remain are completely implausible.
The downside of this lack of understanding on the part of the birthers is, of course, that they don’t really get how badly Doc just kicked their collective asses…
Well,you thought are strange if you think it wasn,t done there, because the law in effect then.
If the law prohibits anyone from looking at your birth certificate what is the danger of it being . I could do a lot of things if the law could not check it out.
why do you forget the nationals of the USA, Do not want to admit that is correct.?
Even one who left the USA and wanted to return had to have a passport, regardless of age.
Except, of course for Mexico and Canada! Or in the services of the USA
Nationals aren’t citizens
Would you like to try this again in English?
Once again Nationals aren’t US Citizens and are not a type of citizen
that is not what the stamp says Dr, C. It says ” a copy or abstract”, does it not?
So , how do you know if it was a copy or an abstract?
And , if you think there was , or is, no difference why the necessity for the wording?
I don’t know if it is a copy or an abstract!
Of course, the law was in effect in 1959 when the Statehood came into being.forname changes at governmental request.
If there in no danger in filing a false birth certificate because none of the public can look at it what is to stop you from trying.
If the government could not find out I could counterfeit money, would I be afraid to print some?
I agree and that is why I said not all born children in a country are natural born citizens.
Children of invading armies are not natural born citizens of the invading army country .
Why, you ask, because now they have women in the army.
We were the invading army in Iraq, are the children born of American soldiers, citizens of the USA?.If so, they must be citizens by law and not birth.
Nationals of the USA are not citizens of any other country, are they
This is painful to watch. I sincerely hope you aren’t as dense as your words make it appear.
The reason the stamp says “copy or abstract” is because the same stamp is used on copies and abstracts.
The long form Certificate of Live Birth is a copy…..a copy of the original birth record. The short form Certification of Live Birth is an abstract of the data that are in the state system.
Both are certified by the State of Hawaii as proof of Barack Obama’s birth in Hawaii.
Got it now?
now, let us revert to the bC in question
Note the date stamp for the registration has a comma between 4 and 2011.
Did you ever see a advancing date stamp that has a comma between the day and the year?
Did you ever see an overstrike on the date stamp where it looks like a 6 was changed to a 5.
Unless it was a typewriter date it would seem impossible to overstrike the 5 or the 6
Just a little defect in the process ,perhaps.
There are dual citizens. Israel and Taiwan, to name two, have dual arrangements with the USA. My wife is a dual USA/ROC citizen. I am a dual USA/Israel citizen.
Don’t like it? Write to your Congressional officials.
Helen asked where I believed Pres. Obama was born. That’s a question from Helen, who never can answer any question posed to her.
I’ll tell you what I believe Helen.
Pres. Obama was born in Hawaii.
I’m an electrical engineer by training. For 18 years I used that training to fly fighters. For 18 years I relied upon controllers, mechanics and others, most of whom I never met and did not know. Sometimes the controllers were at Central Commend while I was a couple of continents away. I did not ask who vetted them nor did I ask for their birth certificates. I relied on these strangers when the enemy locked on, and when missiles were fired at me. And when In my last mission, when my canopy was destroyed and I was blinded (temporarily) I made a spiral descent into Bagram relying on a controller who I did not know who talked me in. I did not ask where he was born. I trusted the right guy had been hired. I did not ask if his Father was Black or had been born in Kenya, nor did I care.
The corpsman who pulled me out and bandaged my eyes is Hispanic. I did not ask him if he was a citizen. I later learned his folks are illegal aliens living in Chicago and working in the underground economy. The fact that he is an anchor baby does not trouble me. I figured the folks responsible for putting him on the line concluded he was qualified.
The doctor who saved my sight is Black. I did not check out his credentials. I trusted that the folks responsible had checked him out.
I never vetted the credentials of any of my superiors. I trusted that the Air Force had reviewed their credentials and training.
With respect to Pres. Obama, the folks who are responsible for telling me where he was born work for the State of Hawaii. They say he was born there. Multiple times. Under oath. Two governors, one Republican and one Democrat, say he was born there. The President says he was born there, and I believe he is a good, decent Christian man. I take him at his word. He has run an administration remarkably free of corruption.
The people of the United States, with full exposure to the Birther claims, voted for Pres. Obama, twice. I trust the voters. That’s what America is about.
The Electoral College picked Pres. Obama, twice.
The Congress certified the results of the election, twice. Not one Senator or Representative objected. Pres. Bush drew objections, but not Pres. Obama.
Chief Justice Roberts swore Pres. Obama in 4 times. I have great respect for John Roberts. He would not swear in someone who was not qualified.
No member of the Supreme Court has expressed the slightest curiousity in any Birther case. We have those 9 judges there to watch out for these things. These are 9 exceptional well-trained and smart people.
Over 100 judges throughout the country, and multiple election commissions and secretaries of state have rejected Birther claims. Over 200 times. Those are folks whose job it is to decide these things.
That’s what I believe in, Helen. I believe in America.
For my money Birthers are Fascists. They want to criminalize dissent. They are racists. They are often Holocaust Deniers, flat earthers, and anti-science. They think the world is 6,000 years old and, if given the chance, they would repeal the 20th Century and make the earth 5900 years old. I looked at the document you referenced, and searched it for references to Hawaii. There were NO negative references. There was one neutral reference, that Hawaii has a centralized birth registration system.
So, Helen, what do you believe in? Why can’t you answer the very simple question put to you? Where do you think Pres. Obama was born? Name the location, and set forth a fact or two supporting that location. Don’t tell us you need to see more documents. Stop being a concern troll, and try answering a question.
So, Helen, time to put up or shut up. You asked me what I believe in. I believe in America.
The defect, Helen, is in your thinking. Sorry but that’s the painful truth.
Doesn’t look like a comma to straight may be the edge of the stamp number possibly the 2011.
I know you don’t like to look at other Hawaiian BCs because they disprove your theories but for anyone else who is interested in the truth, look at this one and zoom in on the March 15 2011 registrar date stamp.
http://wtpotus.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/miki-booths-long-form-bc-from-hawaii.jpg
Notice the vertical lines on either side of the 2011.
“Nationals of the USA are not citizens of any other country, are they”
Helen the troll, YES
but in addition, Helen the stupid troll.
my wife has a USA Passport, and a Japan Passport
dual citizenship is extremely common, why you don’t know that is troubling and tells us about you.
Goodness gracious, amigo, I know there are dual citizens.
I said that a “National” is not a citizen
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_781.html
“The Department of State occasionally receives requests for certificates of non-citizen national status pursuant to Section 341(b)(2) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 USC 1452(b)(2).
As the title of the certificate indicates, only a person who qualifies as a non-citizen national (i.e. a person who is a U.S. national but not a U.S. citizen) is eligible to apply for such a certificate. ”
Does that explain it?
And thank you, that might ,indeed, be an explanation for the “comma”, although I would expect an edge strike to be the whole edge and not the short sections shown.
Now do you know why the 5 looks like an overstrike.
Helen, I see you are back.
Why won’t you answer my question?
Where was Pres. Obama born? Stop telling the rest of us why we are wrong. Make an affirmative statement. Where was Pres. Obama born?
Well, now I will admit I was wrong, everyone bis a national of the USA ,and a citizen, unless you were excluded by law, in which case you are a non-citizen national.
How about that!
Gee.now I have to correct myself again. All citizens are nationals and all non-citizen who owe allegience to the USA are nationals. But some nationals are excluded by law from being citizens.
And it is even more complicated.
How in the world would I know that. Here you have a group of people saying the birth certificate is fake, another saying it must be true because some one said it is true,and neither of them have ever seen the original document and have no personal knowledge of the birth.
Are the non-believers wrong, or are the believers wrong.
I don’t know from my personal knowledge where he was born, and the copy of the birth certificate is too crude for me to have 100%belief in it.
Do you have personal knowledge of where he was born?
Dear Kevin,
First I want to commend you on how long you have been publishing disinformation, I think since December 2009. A lot have dropped out of the birth certificate forgery issue after the November 2012 election like Miki B. but you are still actively in it and I give you credit for your persistence. Of course your audience doesn’t know why but I do–you have skin in the game and you have to defend it. Also I wanted to complement you on how organized you are.
I differ with you when you try to imply and also state that Paul Irey and I are not experts in type, graphics and scanners. We have over 82 years combined in these fields so you really shouldn’t say that we have no experience, that’s just not true. Also Mr. Nash has some very good points.
I had asked you several questions when you wrote on Orly T. site but you never answered me. Let’s try again.
1. Why do you support a known Marxist Barack Obama? Give us reasons why.
2. Why do you think Socialism is a better economic/political system than a free democracy outlined in our Constitution? I will assume you are a smart man so you must realize that every Socialist state in history has to be a police state in order to extract the taxes and labor out of its citizens. Why would you want to support that?
3. Where did you “learn” to favor socialism? Was it in College or at home?
Have a nice day.
Do you have personal knowledge where any previous President was born? If not, what consequences does that have for you personally? Do you think all previous Presidents might have been ineligible?
Not “someone” but the issuing authority. Do you want to get thrown in jail because only “someone said” that your passport or other ID is valid? And kept there until you find someone with personal knowledge who you are and where you were born?
I don’t believe that is accurate. All citizens are nationals, not all (but most) nationals are citizens.
nationals .vs. citizensl
That is incorrect. The children of non-citizen nationals, born in the USA, are Natural Born Citizens. Anyone born in the USA (under jurisdiction) is a national born citizen.
If, however, the child was born in American Samoa, Swains Island, or some foreign nation, then they are only nationals, not citizens.
Those who are non-citizen nationals are people born in (or having ties with) ‘an outlying possession of the United States’. Since 2005 ‘outlying possessions’ include only American Samoa and Swains Island.
Yes.
First of all, it is highly unlikely that a pregnant US soldier would be allowed to remain in Iraq to give birth.
Be that as it may, the child if born in Iraq and if it meets the criteria set out in USC 1401, it will be a Natural Born Citizen of the United States.
It is also quite possible that the child will be an Iraqi citizen as well. One would need to study Iraqi law to determine that. The fact that the USA is an invading Army is of relevance only with respect to Iraqi law, not American law. Do they have the same ‘jurisdiction’ filter as we do? Maybe, maybe not. The point is that Iraq has just as much right to define their criteria for citizenship as the USA does.
Helen, you are avoiding the question. If you do not know where Pres. Obama was born, why are you here? Why are you debating? This is a little late in the game to be uncertain. Do you think you might make up your mind by the time the Obama Presidential Library opens?
This is not a dispute as you put it between two roughly equivalent groups of people with different views, like debating whether the Cubs or the White Sox are the better team. On the one hand you have every government official we have out in charge of figuring this stuff out, and on the other hand you have a small group of cranks.
So take a stand, Helen. We know all we are going to know. Where was Pres. Obama born? As Magic M put it, you, Helen, have no personal knowledge where any previous President was born, and you have not seen any previous President’s birth certificate. Most probably had no birth certificate, and some, like Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Eisenhower etc. have birth certificates filed way late. Why do you insist on holding Pres. Obama to a different standard than any other President? Can it be because he is African-American and you are a racist?
Where was Pres. Obama born, Helen? Why can’t you take a stand?
She was talking about American Somoa nationals, those born on unincorporated US territories are US nationals and not US Citizens
Being born in American Somoa is not being born within the US this has been explained to you before
You have not proven a false birth certificate was filed. Using your illogical trolljack no document is valid in your mind. So what do we replace birth certificates with?
Wow trolljack you have to be the dumbest birther ever. Yes Ive seen stamps with a comma between the day and year. Are you saying we didnt have that kind of technology in 2011?
Again with the noncommital bs trolljack. He asked for your personal opinion where do you believe he was born? Why do you avoid direct questions like when I asked you when you believed the birth certificate was created and inserted into the record?
If I could give this a standing ovation, I would.
Hear, hear.
I’m going to answer Mr. Vogt for me, and not for Dr. Conspiracy.
1. I didn’t vote for Pres. Obama either time he ran for President. I contributed to Sen. McCain and my wife and I gave the maximum to Gov. Romney’s campaign. However, whether or not Pres. Obama is a Marxist (which he is not) is quite irrelevant to whether he is eligible (which he is). If the American people want to elect a Marxist (which the President is not) that is their right.
2. I don’t think Socialism is a better system than capitalism, but neither is in the Constitution. And there are counties around the world who have had or still have Socialist governments, including England, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Israel. That is the right of those peoples.
3. I don’t favor Socialism. Believe me, there are not a lot of Socialists at the Academy, so one can’t learn it there.
I disagree with Dr. Conspiracy on the issue of this blog, though. Dr. Conspiracy thinks he ought to debate you about whether a PDF posted on the internet is genuine. I think that issue is quite irrelevant. Gov. Lingle and the appropriate officials in Hawaii say the President was born there. In this country, that’s who we put in charge of determining those facts. There are those who think a birth certificate is entitled to full faith and credit under the Constitution. IANAL, but full faith and credit is in the Constitution. Capitalism isn’t.
By the way, same challenge as to Helen. Where was the President born? It is quite irrelevant whether he has papers. He is not a dog nor are we in Nazi Germany. The President doesn’t need papers.
Wasn’t the flow of birth records from the hospital to the health bureau to the local news agency that served both dailies, and from there to the newspapers themselves? Were not the health bureau, the newspaper agency and the papers all located downtown, a few blocks from one another? Phoning birth records in would have been an inefficient way of doing it, not to mention that it would increase the possibility of introducing errors. Since newspaper reporters are always out and about in the cities they serve, one of them — perhaps the designated police reporter on a given day — was assigned as part of his or her routine to swing by the news agency and pick up the printed copy of birth records.
http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/audience.gif
I second that.
John Reilly
for me – “The European” – this site is entertainment. Does not really concern me.
For Americans standing left of the middle it is entertainment as well – poking dumb birthers with sharp sticks
For you – a Republican – it must be painful to read these posts. How many Republicans do still have doubts about President Obama’s eligibility ? Nearly half of them ? Can it be that you are in the wrong camp ?
So a special thank you for your words which deserve to be written in stone.
Gee – wonder why you wouldn’t publish my last two posts? TRUMPED! You lose. Please – oh please…don’t confuse yourself with the facts – especially if they are inconvenient facts.
Good grief. You guys need to get a life. You can cry about the “birthers” all you want – but you, and the rest of the world will soon see. I bet this site will disappear like smoke.
What a joke you are.
The only time I’ve seen a comment not get posted, as submitted, is when its got profane language. But then again, anything a birther has to say could be considered profane language.
And you’re whining about a couple of posts? That’s nothing on say…Birther Report, which outright censors any and all dissenting opinions. The messages either never get through there, or are replaced with a silly picture meant to offend the poster. So grow yourself a thicker skin, and be thankful Doc allows you to post at all.
Heck, I’ve had posts not posted right away and I’ve been here for over 2 years. Sometimes you type something that hits the filters and it gets sent to moderation.
So, “Patience Grasshopper”, we’ll get around to crushing you underfoot just as soon as Doc gets around to reading your drivel to see why it was sent to moderation.
Could you whine anymore? Your posts here are visible. If any of us go to a birther site we get our posts censored, we get banned and put into moderation. Chances are you might have gotten a rotating IP address from a past user who abused the site thus were put into moderation. You haven’t posted any facts yet Timmeh.
Dougie, dougie, dougie,
So many words, so lacking in coherence.
All that needs to be said about you is vomited forth in the blurb for your sad little book.
“It has taken the author, Douglas Vogt, 8 years to finish this landmark book that contains over 60 major scientific discoveries. It represents over 36 years of research on the subject. Part of it is a continuation of his first book Reality Revealed, The Theory of Multidimensional Reality. The book proves the causes for the global warming, the ice ages and polar reversals. He proves that the current global warming is a result of our Sun’s output increasing since the 1890s. This will all culminate in the polar reversal and our sun will nova in October 2046. Almost no one will survive this event unless the world realizes this and acts now! ”
Have you seen this?
http://iansbrain.com/2009/04/03/south-parks-timmy-finally-got-his-drivers-license-and-a-sweet-vannity-plate/
That was a seated ovation. 🙂
ROTFL.. In spite of all the evidence, our friend claims ignorance… Yes, that’s about the extent of the birther argument.
A few points. Helen must be on vacation as she has not returned to tell us where Pres. Obama was born.
Mr. Vogt has disappeared as well. Perhaps he is still looking in the Constitution for the word “capitalism.” Or he is looking for evidence that the Pres. is a Marxist. Either way, he is demonstrating his bias; not good for a supposed expert.
Mr. Johnson just did a drive-by whine. That probably ended when his Mother asked him to come upstairs from the basement to dinner.
And as to The European, as one can imagine, I travel in largely Republican circles. Among our friends and family, it came as surprise that Gov. Romney or Sen. McCain lost, because most of us supported them. I run into friends all the time who want to pass along some story about why Pres. Obama is the worst President ever. Often times their facts are just plain wrong. I got an e-mail the other day bemoaning the fact that the Pres. was giving out cell phones for free to poor people, who he described as drug dealers. That’s just his racism poking through. I sent him a link that whatever you think of the program, it was started by Pres. Bush. So it’s like bailing out a sinking rowboat with a thimble. It looks futile, but you have to try.
No surprise there I love how he claims to have some expertise being a copy salesman and all. Okay so then he should have at least answered NBCs analysis?
With your and Doc’s permission I would like to feature that comment on my blog.
She also never answered when she thought the “forgery” was created and when it was inserted into the record
Of course.
Doug Vogt and Paul Irey are both pathetic nuts. I have exchanged emails with both of them.
Doug Vogt is fixated on the “Obama and all of his supporters are Marxist” meme. He thinks anyone actively opposing Birthers on blogs is supporting treason and should be hanged. I believe he has tried to report Doc, John Woodman, and me to the FBI for committing “misprision of treason”. I am sure they laughed at him.
Paul Irey buys into Joel Gilbert’s fabricated smears against the President Obama’s deceased mother. He will email you nude pictures he claims to be Ann Dunham that cannot possibly be her. He believes Frank Marshall Davis is President Obama’s father.
These two the typical for what Birther’s claim are “experts”.
He basically called me a nitpicker when I showed him several flaws in his “different letters, different fonts” pseudo-analysis.
He has what the German legal lingo calls Belastungseifer (bay-lust-oongs-eye-fur, “eagerness to incriminate”, a pattern of behaviour that can disqualify a witness in court because it appears the witness is more interested in getting the defendant indicted than in simply telling the truth). If he were a neutral expert, he’d have taken my criticism seriously instead of resorting to personal attacks and pouting.
He also tried to friend me on Facebook, likely to dig up personal info to use for more personal attacks. He really thought he could brush me off with “why do you even bother, you’re German!”.
It his hilarious that Irey would call anyone a nitpicker.
In John Woodman’s book he points out that almost every one of Irey’s letter anomalies are in the same vertical band in the document where it is obvious that there is some optical distortion from one of the scanning operations. Irey had to admit Woodman was correct.
Irey also kept promising that Corsi and WND were going to publish some new blockbuster analysis he had done. It never happened. I tried to tell Irey Corsi was just using him and he shouldn’t trust Corsi. Corsi had probably gotten all use he could out of Irey by that time.
Remember this exchange that the Raised on Hoecakes blogger had with Irey? Paul Irey Doesn’t Like Us. We Are Not Shedding Tears.
I do the same thing with some of my conservative friends on Facebook. And these are not stupid, uneducated people. The problem is that they get all of their information from their echo chamber, and they mindlessly repeat it without checking to see if it is true. One of the more recent ones is the claim that if immigration reform is passed, the government will be giving free cars to students so they can get to and from their summer jobs! If they see anything negative about Obama they run with it, never mind whether it is actually true.