I’ve been putting off writing something about Zullo’s latest comments on the fake race code table he presented at his 2nd big news conference. Now the esteemed HistorianDude has written a comment here that covers the topic well. So here is what he said:
Question: Who verified the coding theory promoted by the Cold Case Posse?
July 17, 2012:
Zullo: “These codings we learned through our investigation, and then locating the mysterious U.K. Lee, which has plagued this thing for four years, where people were wondering who this is, we located Verna Lee. Verna Lee is 95 years old, amazingly sharp. We spoke with her and she confirms to us what I’m going to share with you now.”
“You can’t have a document coded like other documents double-checked and have a code that says 9, “not stated” and have a piece of information sitting in the box. That just can’t happen. Verna Lee confirmed that for us.”
October 4, 2014:
Zullo: “And for two feverish days Jerry Corsi sent his associate who this woman stayed in the lobby of the CDC for eight hours a day for two days trying to get the answer to this question. On the third day, it was about two and a half hours I believe before the press conference was going to go, at that point in time the “9” code issue was not going to be in it. As fate would have it, Attorney Larry Klayman happened to be in Phoenix so he stopped in wanted to say hello to the sheriff. Larry Klayman, Larry Klayman’s associate, Sheriff Arpaio, myself and Jerry Corsi were all in the conference room when the phone rang from the woman from the CDC. And I have her information, who she is and she’s not a clerk. She’s a highly educated individual. Jerry put her on speaker phone. I remember Jerry sitting there with his fingers crossed. And she confirmed for us that what we were saying and requesting, what the number 9 meant was in fact what it was. He asked her to repeat it. ‘Are you saying this 9 in this box yada-yada-yada means X?’ And she said, ‘Yes.’”
Discussion: In 2012, there was no mention whatsoever about a CDC verification, or of the mysterious Corsi “associate” that allegedly waited in the CDC lobby for three days to get a verification. It was instead long retired Verna K. Lee who took center stage in the press conference as the external authority who could corroborate the Posse theory. In retrospect it becomes clear that Lee’s alleged verification applies at best only to the process by which coding took place, and not to the specific codes or meanings of codes used in 1961. Zullo made no effort to make that distinction clear.
Worse, the alleged “CDC verification” now claimed by Zullo two years later apparently entails no actual, tangible CDC verification whatsoever. There is nothing in writing from the CDC. There is no individual from the CDC identified as a source. There is no statement, email, quotation (attributable or otherwise) or even a paraphrase of anybody associated with the CDC providing any information whatsoever, let alone a verification of the 1961 meaning of the “9” code for race, to the Cold Case Posse.
And of course, most damning is the fact that the actual 1961 CDC coding manual has been found proving that the Posse theory is objectively wrong out of the gate.
The story about waiting in the lobby of the CDC sounds a little fishy. If he wanted that information, he should have been waiting in the lobby of the National Center for Health Statistics, which is in Hyattsville, Maryland (or more sensibly, have called them on the phone). The NCHS is organizationally part of the CDC, but it has its own offices.
If any federal official answered the coding question, they would have to have referred to the old coding manuals, and we know that those manuals do NOT align with the codes Zullo presented at his press conference.
By the way, I was invited a few years ago to the NCHS office in Hyattsville as part of a panel advising them on birth certificate standards, as a representative of the vital records software vendor community.
Zullo court ready evidence:
“Are you saying this 9 in this box yada-yada-yada means X?’ ”
There you have it folks. Three years of investigation and this is Zullo’s proof positive evidence that the Obama PDF is an absolute, total forgery. Even “Ineligibility Activists” (Birthers) may have a tough time buying this latest nonsense.
FWIW, I don’t know if the story about the CDC official is true but shortly (same day as?) after the press conference Mark Gillar on his YouTube page said:
“The one thing I can tell you is that according to the cold case posse who spoke with a government offiicial who referenced the 1961 manual, both list 2 as negro and 9 and as not stated. The CCP said they have this confirmation documented. I have no reason not to believe them. Since we both agree that code 2 was for negro in both the 1961 and 1969 manuals why wouldn’t his father be coded a 2? There’s nothing confusing about his appearance is there? Is he purple, blue, pink?”
” The video states “obtained information” from the 1961 manual, not obtained this photograph from the 1961 manual. Yes, I actually believed the photo was from the 1961 manual. Mr. Zullo explained to me in the previously referenced conversation that the information is the same as the info in the 1961 manual. Zullo also stated the MCSO had confirmation from a Fed Gov official that this information was reflective of the 1961 procedure before instructing me on the video’s production.”
Both comments are listed as from “2 years ago”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yft0kz_fbnA&list=UUmWekA5wsKVUZShCrb-LVyQ
You have to scroll through two year old comments.
I noticed something else Zullo said recently regarding running 1200 tests on the xerox workcenter. It’s the same number he used in the Zullo affidavit from May 2013 before the xerox workflow was posted. It was the number of tests Garrett Pappit supposedly ran regarding Optimization and OCR as Zullo stated in his affidavit:
“Our investigation has also concluded that the method used to fabricate the document was by means of human logic and the distinct manual placement and distribution of electronic data between nine distinct computer generated “layers”. This type of layering is entirely uncharacteristic of a paper document that, when scanned, results in a simple, digitized, single layer photographic image.” … “Investigators in particular focused on the registrar stamp bearing the signature of Hawaii States Registrar Dr. Alvin T. Onaka. This stamp was found to be comprised of external objects that were imported into the document, created uniquely for the forgery of the Obama birth document, by an intentionally deceptive cut-and-paste process.” … “Our investigational findings soundly defeated the only two attempted explanations of the anomalies on the computer generated long-form birth certificate image offered for justification: OCR (Optical Character Recognition) and/or Optimization (Compression of the files in order to reduce the file size). Investigators attempted to recreate the anomalies found in the computer generated image by tedious implementation of the some 1200 computerized tests, and were unable to recreate the anomalies contained in the White House .pdf file.””
So now they’re just recycling claims and changing their meaning.
I used to think that Zullo was a con man. Now I am beginning to suspect that he is just incredibly, monumentally, stupid and gullible.
How else would one describe a man who gave up a lucrative job selling used cars for a position as an unpaid fake cop? 😀
“crappy car salesman” comes to mind …
This post doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. In that same radio show, Mark Gillar said that he got the confirmation about the race codes via email (he does not say who sent it) the day before the press conference. Here’s the relevant part of the transcript that Epictitus posted at the Fogbow
http://thefogbow.com/forum/topic/5594-carl-gallups-big-plan-a-this-is-it-really-for-sure-this-time/page-331#entry579625
———————————————————–
“Gillar: My recollection of events at that time was that we were waiting on verification from the CDC. It came in at the last minute. I’m holding an email in my hand dated July 16, 2012 when I was told that we in fact had the verification from the CDC.
[snip]
Gillar: What I can tell you is that the email I received was on July 16th, the press conference was on the 17th, so that must have happened the day before.
Zullo: I don’t know, Mark. It could’ve. I don’t know. I don’t… You know what? I don’t really think so.
Gillar: I’ve got it…
Zullo: What date do you have?
Gillar: I’ve got July 16th. It’s dated.
Zullo: Oh! You know what I think you were… you were doing videos right up until that time. Is that what it was?
Gillar: What it was is it took me… because you guys didn’t verify with me that the CDC had verified the codes, because you guys didn’t do that until, according to this email, 3:30 PM on the 16th. It took me until two hours before…
Zullo: That’s what it was.
Gillar: I think I, you know truthfully, I think I found out about this “9” code video, this was like an extra one that I did. I found out about it like two days before the press conference.
Zullo: We had to get Jerry to send you that little picture of those codes.
Gillar: Yeah, because I said, “Send me what you want me to put in the video.” It was just a JPEG. It didn’t have a date on it. I didn’t know it came from the 1968 manual. But even if it had, if the person said that those codes were actually valid before that in 1961 it wouldn’t have made a difference.”
———————————————————–
Regardless of the details, both stories confirm what most of us suspected–Jerome Corsi was the source of the erroneous race codes, and Zullo apparently relied on Corsi to confirm his own information.
Why is that either/or?
I don’t think so. Zullo is merely a BAD con man.
To be fair, his marks (the birthers) have been exceedingly stupid and trustworthy, so it’s made a job easier, and therefore sloppy.
But Zullo is definitely a liar and a grifter.
My personal suspicion is that he is at least as good an unpaid fake cop as he ever was a used car salesman.
I do have to agree with Predicto on this one, and on that note to Lupin, the only reason that he may be making a living off his current collection of marks is that they are even magnitudes more “incredibly, monumentally, stupid and gullible”, otherwise, he’d be starving to death.
I am holding my own, but I have the feeling I will need help over at:
http://www.westernjournalism.com/former-justice-department-attorney-files-petition-deport-obama/
Anyone who wants to help, please pitch in.
” I’m holding an email in my hand dated July 16, 2012 when I was told that we in fact had the verification from the CDC. ”
This leaves no doubt: this email was not from CDC, it was from someone who reported to have a verification, Lyin Corsi probably ……
Do I hear a say?
And do I hear a birther say “this is not a confirmation”, as they did with Hawaii?
I just think Gillar and Zullo forget to double-check on what each of them were going to say about the race codes and got caught contradicting each other.
Gillar obviously threw Zullo off balance with his July 16th email reference. Here we have Zullo sharing the race codes “drama” about waiting to the last minute before the press conference. And then we have Gillar essentially saying “but. but, but, didn’t we handle this the day before?”
Perhaps Zullo’s story about the unnamed woman in the CDC lobby was his lie to avoid having to say that it was Corsi who “verified” the race codes the day before.
I think that this is clearly an example of Mike Zullo lying. But then, there are plenty of other examples of that…
And we know that those screen shots didn’t come from the CDC, but from The Daily Pen web site.
It is also significant that Zullo misrepresented his own fake information. Even in the 1968 manual, code “9” isn’t “not stated.” It is “Unknown or not stated.” It is perfectly possible for the birth certificate to have said “African” and a clerk, knowing that not all Africans are black, could have coded it “9.”
We now know that the Hawaii codes from 1961 do not have a code for “black” and in that code set, “9” stands for “other.”
As background filler, a lot of the detail about race codes etc AND it’s sorta-kinda debunking came from a Freeper Creeper “ladysforest”. she is just jumpingback into this over at Freak Rethuglic so some context.
Link to her posts, as usual, start low and work up…
http://freerepublic.com/tag/by:ladysforest/index?tab=comments;brevity=full;options=no-change
Bad enough to be a liar, but plain pathetic to a transparently bad liar. Again, I think this inability to spin a comprehensive, convincing story comes from an inability to think objectively, to get out of their own headspace. A simple process of forethought, “If I heard this, and was skeptical, what questions might I have?”
That and just plain sloppiness and inconsistency. No attention to detail.
As fun as it is to point out their shortcomings, doing so potentially helps them improve their tales.
I left this comment on Gillar’s YouTube video:
As stated in Vital Statistics of the United States 1961 – Volume 1 – Natality, the federal government, not the state of Hawaii, coded forms for federal statistical tabulation based on microfilm copies of birth certificates (not original certificates). For statistical purposes, they only tabulated forms with even-numbered certificates. This means that a) President Obama’s birth certificate (# 10641) wasn’t tabulated by the federal government and b) the codes that appear on Obama’s Certificate were applied by the State of Hawaii, not the federal government. Zullo’s commentary about the State of Hawaii coding forms for the federal government was total baloney for 1961 (in later years, it would have been true).
Given that the codes were from Hawaii, they would have been the ones used to tabulate statistics for state use. In fact, the codes on all published 1961 Hawaiian certificates, align perfectly with the categories in the Statistical Supplement to the 1961 Annual Report of the Hawaii Department of Health (available from the state library in Honolulu). In that report, there is no category for “negro” or “black.” There were so few black births in Hawaii, there was no separate category. The 9th category in the report is “other.”
So Obama’s father’s race code is the only thing it could have been. Zullo talked with great authority about things he didn’t understand. He lied when he said he had a 1961 manual. All he had was a fake 1968 screen shot and Corsi’s word for its authenticity. Zullo says that the mandate he had from Sheriff Arpaio was to vet the information from Jerry Corsi, and now you and Zullo admit that it was Corsi who vetted his own information.
Mike Zullo is incompetent as an investigator; he is a conspiracy theorist. Mike Zullo and the Cold Case Posse were duped, and have been duped over and over in the course of their so-called “investigation.”
In recent discussion about this issue, I looked at Birth Certificate Number on Obama’s birth certificate again and I believe I have found new potential error on it. First lets look at some previous contemporary birth certificate of the time:
Nordyke BC
http://obamanotqualified.com/images/nordyke-twins-1961-hawaian-birth-certificate-01c.jpg
Look at the birth certificate #s – They are pretty lined up straight
Ad’Nee BC
http://rcradioblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/johanna-bc.jpg
Again the birth certificate number is in near perfect alignment.
Coat’s BC
http://passportsusa.com/wp-content/gallery/passportusa/edith_front.jpg
Again the BC # is in near Perfect Alignment.
How about the Booth BC
http://www.saltandlightblog.com/wp-content/uploads/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963.jpg
BC # – Again is in near perfect alignment.
Now let’s look at Doc C’s Reconstruction
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/obama_long_form_reconstruction.jpg
Again the BC Number is in near perfect alignment.
Now lets finally take a look at the Obama Birth Certificate
http://nativeborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/guthriebc1.jpg
Now look at the Birth Certificate # – Notice the obvious misalignment on of the number. On the other birth certificates, there is little or no misalignment of the BC # but on Obama’s is much more profound.
This GIF gives a better understanding the alignment discrepancy:
http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/obamacertcompare.gif
Again notice the misalignment of the BC # on Obama’s
While I would like to see more contempoary BC of the time, it does give food for thought.
Why is Obama’s BC # misaligned much more than any other birth certificate we have seen of the time?
Bravo! You are holding not only your own, but ALL of THEIRS in your smart wittle hands, Ellen! Well done! Truth will not triumph over them, but it will leave them behind.
Thinking of Corsi and those “two feverish days” kind of puts me off my feed. I think I’ll forgo breakfast.
“Larry Klayman, Larry Klayman’s associate, Sheriff Arpaio, myself and Jerry Corsi were all in the conference room when the phone rang from the woman from the CDC. And I have her information, who she is and she’s not a clerk. She’s a highly educated individual. Jerry put her on speaker phone. I remember Jerry sitting there with his fingers crossed. And she confirmed for us that what we were saying and requesting, what the number 9 meant was in fact what it was. He asked her to repeat it. ‘Are you saying this 9 in this box yada-yada-yada means X?’ And she said, ‘Yes.’”
That’s just silly. Everybody knows 9 = IX. Duh. Some “highly educated individual.”
That’s interesting, because at his March, 2012 press conference Arpaio dishonestly claimed that his mandate had “no preconceived notions” and “this investigation could clear President Obama’s name and put people’s minds at ease.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff-joe-arpaio-suggests-obamas-birth-certificate-is-a-forgery/
Instead, Arpaio’s “investigation” allowed the accuser, Corsi, to vet his own accusations.
Based on this latest interview, we know exactly where Gillar got that impression. He stated that:
Now… it is easy to imagine that this is an email from the CDC, except it is not. A few minutes later (while trying to gently point out to Zullo that his account does not reconcile with the actual timeline) Gillar elaborates:
Gillar no doubt believed a CDC verification had taken place, when in fact all they had received was a phone call from a Corsi associate who was, allegedly, camped at at the CDC in Atlanta. And all Gillar had received was an email from either Zullo or Corsi to that effect.
Possibly.
NBC posted a link to a ladysforest comment at Free Republic
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/05/zullo-promises-nothing-new-at-public-presentation/#comment-270229
“Mike spent a very long time on the phone with the director of the CDC, back and forth on the codes and the use in 1961, and she finally indicated that the race code listing they were to use in the presser was probably accurate. Mike still wasn’t thrilled about presenting that part of the material, but reluctantly did so based on the none too enthusiastic assurances of the CDC director.”
Several days ago she posted this:
“The CDC person he refers to is the same one that sent me the manual, she is a upper management level person. Zullo had not known prior to that presentation that Corsi got so much of “his” stuff straight from … BLOGGERS! And had not confirmed all of it. The image from the 1968 Federal manual that was used in the presentation was a image from the blog The Daily Pen for example, but Corsi had the script written to claim it was a ‘61.”
[skip]
“FWIW, Zullo told me that he had spent about 5 hours on the phone with the woman at the CDC.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3211679/replies?c=202
The director of the CDC is a man Dr. Tom Freiden who has been director since 2009.
I assumed she didn’t mean the director. In her second recent statement she called the CDC person upper management.
FWIW, she may be lying but she did say that Zullo told her the name of the person at the CDC and it was the same name as the person that she had spoken with.
So in other words they had no idea who or what they were talking about. Zullo has a history of claiming he spoke with people like say Verna Lee then never actually proving the claim. The fact remains they used the wrong coding manual at the Press conference and then lied about it. The code 9 meant other nonwhite. The actual coding manual which lady forest revealed shows the reason why Barack Obama Sr. wouldn’t have been considered a negro.
I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying that he may very well have talked someone at the CDC. Just something to consider.
He may well have talked to a receptionist as well. His track record for telling things accurately is sitting at about 0%. Notice the weasel wording. That they were to use. That doesn’t necessarily mean that what they presented was what they were going to use when they talked to this person. The fact is the final wording they used was wrong, the claims were wrong.
Or the janitor. Or the Ghost of Christmas Past.
The gullibility of people who give that sort of stuff any credibility is something to behold.
…I was going to say Or the Easter Bunny, or Goldilocks…but you beat me to it!
Corsi may well have talked to someone at the CDC, and he probably talked to Verna Lee, but I think his characterizations of those conversations were misleading. Perhaps, parts were assembled to support his own desired narrative, not the truth. Corsi is known for stringing true statements together in such as a way as to create a false impression.
In 1968 code “9” meant “unknown or not stated” and in 1961 it meant “other non-white.”
The bottom line is that what Zullo characterized Corsi as characterizing what the CDC said, simply is not true.
Do you have any idea how those numbers were applied to those forms?
From what I can see it was probably an automatic (advancing one number for each stamp) numbering unit. It could be electric or manual. It doesn’t make any difference.
The rest of the form is pre-printed (obviously) and at some point (before or after the birth information is typed I do not know) a clerk puts the form in the unit to apply the number. The ones I have used look and operate very much like an electric stapler. When the paper makes contact with a switch the number imprints.
Like the electric stapler all that is required is to get the general area where you want the stamp applied into the area of the stamp…..like the upper right hand corner of the form.
And, john, that is why the stamps (and staples) are in different places. Simple.
(Out of curiosity: How much time and effort did you spend chasing this bunny down the birther rabbit hole?)
We all know if it was perfectly straight “John” would also question it saying it was too perfect you know like someone would do if they wanted to create a forgery.
Ladyforest’s story of what Zullo told her shortly after the press conference does not seem consistent with what Zullo said during his interview with Gillar this weekend. She says that Zullo himself claimed to have spent hours on the phone with someone from the CDC to try to confirm the race code information. Zullo’s detailed account over the weekend doesn’t mention this.
Keep talking, Mikey.
I can’t imagine what they talked about to fill that much time.
What strikes me with each one of these things that john tries to bring the life is the level of ignorance (yes, that’s exactly what it is) he brings to the task.
For those that haven’t seen one here is what an “automatic numbering machine” looks like:
http://www.amazon.com/Cosco-Automatic-Numbering-Machine/dp/B004ILXCR0
This is a hand held, manual unit that you will find in zillions of offices across the country. You don’t have to have been around for more than an hour and a half to have seen one or be able to figure what made the numbers on those old Hawaii forms.
And there are electric units for high volume operations. Doc would know best what they used and how they used them in vital records offices.
Again….I am just amazed at the amount of time john spent figuring out nothing.
It doesn’t make a bit of sense. Consider for a moment that if he got her on the phone in the morning she would have had to talk through her lunch hour. After lunch she would have had to talk to him past the end of her shift and into overtime.
How likely is that……especially with a government worker.
He was probably put on hold for about 4 hours and 55 minutes of that.
That cannot possibly be the same verification Zullo mentioned in the Gillar interview a few days ago. In that interview he described the interview as being extremely brief, with Klayman, a Klayman associate, Corsi, Arpiao and Zullo all present. He describes a single question being asked and repeated, and the answer allegedly received was a direct, unqualified “Yes” rather that a “none too enthusiastic assurance.”
Then again… none of these multiple versions may ultimately reflect reality. I am suddenly envisioning trying to piss up a rope.
Doc, i think there are two factors at play here, cupidity and stupidity, both pretty much in equal measure. There is no way of knowing what questions our two intrepid investigators actually asked during their investimigations, since it has been repeatedly proven that their word cannot be trusted, adn since they change their stories at the drop of a lie. My sense is that they were neither of them smart enough to have known that the codes change/changed over time, and were dishonest enough to not ask questions that wouldn’t get the answers they wanted. That has been the hallmark of all their efforts so far to date. I think they asked the questions, always assuming that they even bothered, in such a way as to get the answers that fitted their needs.
I suspect Boy Detective means he spent 5 hours on the phone trying to get someone to talk to him, who when reached, told him to piss off in 2 minutes flat.
I’ve actually seen both arguments applied to the LFBC, e.g. that “the typewriter letters are not aligned perfectly, therefore forgery” and “SAD’s signature has some letters aligned perfectly, therefore forgery”.
Apart from the basic stupidity of these claims together, they were also both patently wrong (the former from Irey’s deliberately misleading “guide lines” differently applied to different letters, the latter from a birther who simply pressed a ruler to his screen and decided “on one line”).
Food for thought about what, exactly?
Even if your claims are true, so what?
#birthersarepathetic
It isn’t.
While most of the Alan certificate is marked out, the first 2 digits are not, showing the second digit is significantly higher than the first.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/sample-certificatelivebirth-hi-med2.jpg
As for my “reconstruction,” it is not based on real certificate image. My reconstruction does, however, make a point worth noting: someone trying to make an example would align the certificate number better than Obama’s. The variation in the number in my version exists because I knew that there was some variation in real certificates, but I couldn’t know what the ranges of that variation were from just a few examples.
Well, of course, that’s just what a forger would say.
John’s post brings back fond memories of birfer experts discussing the well-known sub-micron precision alignment of manual typewriters.
No. No it doesn’t. John, Obama breaths air. Therefore air is bad, and you should stop breathing it!
John, open the Susan Nordyke’s BC in Adobe Photoshop, copy a rectangular layer the includes only the cert. number.
Open President Obama’s BC in Photoshop, paste the cert # layer from Susan Nordykes BC onto President Obama’s BC.
Scale the Nordyke layer until the cert # is the same size as President Obama’s cert #.
Overlay the Nordyke layer onto the cert # in President Obama’s BC and decrease the opacity to 50%.
The Nordyke cert # matches up almost perfectly with President Obama’s.
Scott’s GIF is bullsh*t because he aligns and fixes the form printed lines up between the three BCs. All this shows is that for each BC the operator stamped them in a slightly different place on the BCs.
I did the same thing with Gretchen Nordyke’s BC number. The 61 106 line up perfectly with the 61 106 of President Obama’s.
john is an imbecile.
If the so-called forgers had the resources of the State of HI behind them, they wouldn’t need to forge a BC; they’d just print a legitimate one.
Conversely if this BC had been forged by someone else somewhere else, the State of HI wouldn’t cert it.
This entire BC thing is so stupid to begin with my head hurts.
Their theory seems to be that Obama himself created the forgery, then got the state of Hawaii to certify it after the fact. While that is not true, at least it’s an explanation that makes sense within the conspiracy framework. What does *not* make sense is that other facts require them to simultaneously believe the conspiracy started in 1961 and Hawaii has been “in on it” from the start.
So john will now claim you proved it’s a forgery because there is no way Obama’s BC can line up “perfectly” with another one, so obviously the 61 106 was copied over from Gretchen’s BC. *lol* See, that’s the birther game of Catch-22. Everything is always too perfect or too imperfect.
Maybe its just because I’m new here, and you all already know this, but I don’t think John is as dumb as he pretends to be. He’s just a troll who will say anything to try and push your buttons. You know, like poking an anthill with a stick so that he can watch everyone react.
How about that, john? Are you stupid, or dishonest? Or… both?
Sometimes it’s hard to tell.
It still requires a rather huge leap. I would argue that if Obama could (presumably) force the State of HI to certify a forgery after the fact (as it were), then it follows that he had enough clout to ask them to print a “fake” BC which would have been easier.
As you yourself point out, for the conspiracy to work, the State of HI has to be complicit, which obviates the need for a clumsy forgery.
If the CIA creates a “fake” US passport for one of its agents, it presumably has access to the proper passport paper, inks, stamps, whatever supplies are needed. Even if it created, say, a fake French or German passport for one of its agents, I’m sure their forgeries can pass muster and are not detectible by a bunch of cheetos-eating, basement-living monkeys.
I realized that as I posted. I almost started by saying “John, you are making the wrong argument. President Obama’s number is too similar to others.”
Keeping with the “logical within the conspiracy framework” bracket (aka playing advocatus diaboli):
Not necessarily. He could’ve forged it believing that nobody would ever ask Hawaii to authenticate it. Only when that became necessary, he found somebody willing to vouch for the document as “real copy of a real document”.
Within a less outrageous conspiracy theory, it would only require the participation of a handful of people within the Hawaiian DOH, and it would be possible none of them has the required skills or credentials to create a “real fake BC”.
My point is that a nut could make a case for a real conspiracy theory (one that only requires a handful of people to participate) instead of the birther nuttery (that requires millions and millions of people to be “in on it”).
Of course such a theory would not be able to explain everything (like the newspaper announcements etc.), but I was just referring to the “forged document” claim.
Most of the time I would agree about john. But, every once in a while, as with his absurd post about the placement of certificate numbers it;s obvious he is a true believer.
Yeah, no, you’re giving john WAY too much credit. Based on dozens if not hundreds of comments from john I am fairly sure his problem is this: he assumes Obama MUST somehow be ineligible, and it’s just a matter of time until it is proven. So he latches onto any argument that will yield some glimmer of hope that the Dark Lord Soetoro will be soon get his butt dragged out the White House in chains.
Besides, that scenario never really happens. We don’t react with concern, alarm, or panic. Only with amused incredulity. Nobody familiar with the topic of BHO’s Constitutional eligibility for office is afraid “the truth” will come out… it is already out. BHO is eligible, a natural born citizen beyond any doubt.
He’s a birther. The problem with birthers is that they work backwards from their conclusion in order to make their desired conclusion work.
Birthers as a whole latch onto any theory that will lead to their desired conclusion. That’s why they believe that: for instance, that Obama was born in Kenya because Obama’s mother was looking to meet her husband’s family while trying to hide the fact that she was actually molested by Frank Marshall Davis (the real father) and had starred in Porn at the tender age of 14… (by the way, I wish I was kidding about this theory…)
That’s why they believe that Stanley Ann Dunham flew to Kenya to visit the parents of Obama Sr., and instead of going in the direction of Obama’s village, they went in the Completely opposite direction to Mombasa in order to have the baby at Coast General Hospital…
That’s why they believe that Obama somehow orchastrated a special operations plane-crash in order to kill one person that had publicly supported his birth certificate and said that it was legitimate…
I’ve often felt that if there were any truth to any one of the theories on why Obama was ineligible, the birthers would put all their eggs in that basket and make their case with it. The fact that they have fallback arguments just proves to me they have nothing.
Lotsa “throw and see what sticks”. Because they have learned well from how the political machine operates – make up 100 false claims about your opponents and rest assured the sheer number will make people uncertain. As in “you may have refuted this one claim, but there are 99 left”. And since nobody usually bothers debunking or looking into that many claims, the subconscious feeling of “if there was nothing wrong, there wouldn’t be so many claims” remains.
Because we all base our evaluations on our personal experiences – we know *we* are good people and that’s why there aren’t 100 outrageous claims about us flowing around, so we assume that *if* there’s 100 outrageous claims about someone, that person cannot be a good person.
But surely (“don’t call me shirley”) Obama would have had access to top forging techniques & equipment — as I wrote yesterday “I’m sure their forgeries can pass muster and are not detectible by a bunch of cheetos-eating, basement-living monkeys.”
In order for even your theoretical conspiracy to work, one must first posit an extremely narrow and bizarre set of circumstances.
Practically, there really is no way such a conspiracy could exist.
I
Not really. The only prerequisite is a complete suspension of disbelief. After that, Any Thing Goes.
Edit: that link is 3 or 4 minutes short of illustrating my point, but anyway…