It is perhaps curious that this blog even has an immigration topic, but those who push the idea that President Obama is foreign born seem to do so alongside a bias against the foreign born in general, and so we see anti-immigrant sentiment in many birthers, Orly Taitz and Joe Arpaio being prime examples.
Lest we forget, Orly Taitz and Joe Arpaio were plaintiffs in immigration cases challenging President Obama’s executive authority. Texas and 25 other states won a temporary injunction from federal district Judge Andrew S. Hanen that stopped the implementation of the President’s initiative on children who had entered the US illegally, and the Supreme Court is preparing to hear a Department of Justice request that the stay be lifted.
Judge Hanen is holding a hearing this afternoon (December 15) to determine whether Arpaio, Taitz and others will be permitted to intervene in the multi-state action.
Yesterday Orly Taitz cited the Politico article that mentions her possible intervention, but she does not say whether she is attending the hearing in Brownsville.
There’s a hearing tomorrow in Judge Hanen’s courtroom about whether to stay the proceedings in the states’ challenge to President Obama’s immigration orders pending a SCOTUS review.
Notably, the judge also wants to discuss the proposed intervenors, who include (in)famed birthers Taitz, Arpaio, and Van Allen. But no telephonic appearances are allowed, so I suspect they’ll all be no shows.
I doubt she is, as the judge previously denied her motion to intervene. In addition, Taitz presently is, as always, updating her blog with articles that interest her. So I doubt she flew to Texas; and when she normally does travel, she (married to a multimillionaire) always begs for donations.
Arpaio’s motion has not been ruled upon.
The minutes for today’s hearings indicate that Taitz did appear, but no one (i.e., Klayman) appeared for Arpaio. Van Allen also a no show.
Here’s Taitz’s motion to intervene.
Are you sure you spelled “intervene” correctly, it wasn’t “interfere”? I am also amazed at the numbers of illegal immigrants who must be qualified dental surgeons, just waiting for the chance to open surgeries in the US, to compete with Orly.
Anti-immigrant? Anti-refugee? What part of vetting are you having a Problem with?
https://twitter.com/CodyRobertJudy/status/677175553825202177
Protecting U.S. Citizens is the Priority. Preserve, Protect, and Defend the Constitution protects U.S. Citizens.
I’m unaware of Birthers not welcoming refugees and immigrants after U.S. Citizens are safe and secure in their homes.
Perhaps you missed SCHOOLS out yesterday based on terror threats local officials did not want to risks the safety concerns over? Are they all Birthers?
Vetting is Protecting
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/12/15/los-angeles-public-schools-closed-due-threat/77352734/
Mr. Judy,
You lack the intelligence, knowledge and understanding of nuance necessary to have an honest discussion about any political topic. And that is notwithstanding the incredible amount of misinformation you have accepted without any vetting whatsoever on the eligibility issue and President Obama in general.
American people are less safe in their homes because of the anti-refugee and anti-immigrant sentiment being whipped up by idiots like yourself who couldn’t be helping ISIS more if they were on the payroll. I pray that our next president isn’t as cowardly and ignorant as you or any of the participants in the Republican debate last night.
Does giving aid and comfort to Islamic terrorists make you feel good inside?
The part where people pretend that we don’t already have a robust system of vetting for refugees, a process that can take over a year. The part where people ignore the fact that most terrorism is home-grown and not foreign. The part where people get all excited about foreigners and ignore the fact that the real danger is all the guns in the hands of criminals.
Judy, who claims to be born in the United States, is doing his part to make sure people (regardless of their national origin) feel unsafe at religious meetings.
Utahans are not safe from their fellow citizens.
And also explosive devices, and those claiming to possess explosive devices.
I decided a while ago to skip over all comments written by anyone who has ever tried to get their way by claiming to possess an explosive device, or anyone claiming to have assassinated people who are still alive. It’s one of the best decisions I’ve made in a long time, because their bizarre raving was suffocating my brain.
I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys fresh air and rational company.
@Doc [ the fact that the real danger is all the guns in the hands of criminals.]
You know whenever people start talking about “things” in people’s hands causing death wanting to kill them, I start talking about vehicles and the number of people killed every day.
When they start talking about “gun laws” saving people I bring up Chicago and the thousand + shot with their strict gun laws over the last year, compared to Houston.
@Slartibartfast
You lack the intelligence, knowledge and understanding of nuance necessary to have an honest discussion about any political topic. Which ineligible candidate Obamaconspiracy.org has cleared as eligible are you hoping for: Sen. Cruz or Sen Rubio?
It is very true HEADLINES grabs the attention and few headlines are interested about the #waronpoor in Judy v. Obama 14-9396 and Obama never being vetted or if you consider that he was, it being very poorly done, which has allowed such a tragedy here over the last 7 years.
Obama did a number on America, along side SOS Clinton LIEING to America about the TERRORISTIC ATTACK of 9/12/12 so he could be elected 3 weeks later.
ISIS doesn’t need me when they have Obama.
Obama’s on-watch responsibility and perhaps leniency of multiple Terror attacks in America including Boston Marathon, San Bernardino , Benghazi are plenty reality for Americans to know the results of Arming Moderates in Syria and Mentioning ISIL 18 times in 13 minutes from his bully pulpit his last Sunday Address.
Obama’s greatest import won’t go down as jobs. In fact it may be the GUNS and Miltary Grade Munitions ISIS has received from Obama’s funding of a particular religion establishment in the Sunni Islamist Sect and his sidings in Theocracys.
America is not suppose to be taking sides in Religious Wars. The departure of that sound foreign policy in what Obama hopes is even an Official Declaration is not really making headlines either, but it is very much responsible for the creation of ISIS in the vaccumns of Libya, Egypt, and entire Arab Springs.
Obama could also be credited with the anti-establishment movement in both R and D Parties. . the drop of my influence unnoticed by the Legal System but not going unnoticed by Americans in their support for Trump and lack of energy for HRG.
Stating a candidate is eligible is not the same hoping for them.
The routine rejection of Judy’s frivolous lawsuit is not a war.
President Obama’s background is extensively known; that Judy is still unsatisfied is his problem alone.
And so nice that Judy has heeded Doc’s simple request to stay on topic; the topic of this article being Taitz’s (and Arpaio’s) attempt to intervene in the states’ case against President Obama’s immigration policies.
He was vetted in the exact same way every president before him was vetted during the election. It seems you only have a problem with the vetting process when it came to Obama. You were never vetted why should anyone trust you?
I will break my pledge and reply to CRJ on this one since it is bogus and keeps getting passed around by the ammosexulas.
http://namelesscynic.blogspot.com/2013/11/debunking-tale-of-two-cities.html
Here are the key facts. The number of homicides in the ammosexual lie that went around was overstated by over 1000 for Chicago. It also ignores key facts such as the population density in Chicago is four times what it is in Houston and that municipal gun control laws are often ineffective because of laxer laws in the states and surrounding jurisdictions. I know for years I-95 has been known as the gun corridor for getting guns from Virginia to NYC.
Never vetted? Wow, you do live in a dream world don’t you CRJ?
1) Guess who had to go through security clearance as a US Senator?
2) Guess the pubs didn’t invest the over $1 billion they spent trying to defeat Obama on background huh? Shouldn’t you be blaming the pubs for their stupidity instead?
3) Guess who was the ONLY president in history to show his BC. That’s correct, Obama. All it did was show what a bunch of chickens the pubs are because, as usual, they’re following and showing their BCs now. Obama leading, pubs following, 7 years of a growing country after the pubs tried to destroy it. Not bad work.
You must have been outraged at the lack of hearings held or the fact that no committees were formed to investigate the 13 attacks on our embassies and consulates during the Bush administration. There were 60 employees killed with 9 of them being American.
What happened during Bush’s term in office that allowed you and others who have repeatedly attacked President Obama for one terrorist attack at our consulate in Benghazi to completely overlook not only the 13 attacks but the two of them that were repeated in the same embassy, with one of them occurring only a few months after the initial attack? They didn’t learn anything from the first time they were attacked! The hypocrisy found in you and others like you when it comes to anything during this administration is overwhelming. It’s Obama Derangement Syndrome at its very worst, it’s disgusting.
I love how talkative CRJ is on here but how cowardly he is on his own twitter feed where he’s blocked people for pointing out his errors.
Well, he can’t block anyone here, but he sure acts like a cowardly little Republican drone doing whatever he can to support the tactics of ISIS. And, as Kate said, he’s got an extremely severe case of Obama Derangement Syndrome. It’s sad that the hypocritical little troll doesn’t understand that, by the standards he believes in, he’ll be going to hell when he dies.
Often I reflect on the Talking Points of excusing Obama as some reflection on Pres. George W. Bush comes gushing out.
It’s often times like this people forget I sued McCain first, and nearly derailed his Camp and nomination. The same thing has Cruz and Rubio terrified they won’t have the Talking Heads Obama does working to help cover their/his/ tracks.
It’s really about the Constitution and not Obama when it comes to my feelings. Obama needed help from the MSM to cover his train wrecks and he got it.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2013/09/07/mainstream-media-honchos-related-towhite-house-officials/
It’s not that I begrudge Obama from getting help from friends in high places that saddens me, it’s really those folks have such little respect for those who gave their lives for our Constitution.
That’s just a heart wrencher for me.
It appears you have the same disease that afflicts many RW’ers, amnesia, when it comes to their history you forget what actually happened or you try to rewrite history as in your claim as to “almost derailing his camp and nomination.” How did that go again? What did the Judge say when you appeared before him in court? Just trying to remember this alleged “almost derailment” you’re speaking to.
As for President Obama, he doesn’t need any help from friends in high places when he hasn’t done anything wrong and also holds the highest elected office in the country. What friend in which higher place has helped him and with what? C’mon, fill us in here, CRJ. Please don’t bother with the nut job sites like Breitbart if you want to be considered anywhere near rational.
Please tell me why you weren’t bothered by the incompetence of the Bush administration being attacked 13 times at foreign embassies and consulates? You’re the one who brings up Benghazi as some type of monumental failure yet the same thing happening 13 times during the previous administration elicited no complaints from you or any of the RW’ers who pretend the blame lies squarely on President Obama and Secretary Clinton. Do you really not see the hypocrisy in your statement? Or is it ODS at work?
But, Mr. Judy, we have vetted you. You are a convicted domestic natural-born terrorist.
Chris Mathews goes for the BirtheR Question with Trump and Trump ditched him.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-wazgTnwMcE
But Chris Mathews tells Reporter to “go to hell” when asked about “Tingles” up his leg. Haha to funny story!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wAwAchZcuPA
The hardest think about seeing crime go unpunished is when you know it’s happening, but can’t get into a Court or get an Attorney General to press charges or bring it to Court with their authority in a real case of pettifoggery. ..
And then to have the Media mock you about it .. is really hard!
Judy’s suit against McCain was hopelessly muddled by Judy’s inability to prosecute his suit, and made moot by McCain’a loss. Judy lies (yet again) when he claims he “nearly derailed” anything.
I am confident that neither Cruz, nor Rubio, nor any other major candidate is aware of Judy’s existence.
Yet Judy proves time and again it actually is all about President Obama (and not the U.S. Constitution) for him.
By imagining some conspiracy between President Obama and media, Judy proves the preceding point.
It is birthers like Judy who don’t respect the U.S. Constitution.
Judy has amply shown that what he thinks he “knows” about the legal system is just about the opposite of reality.
If birthers don’t like be ridiculed, they should stop being ridiculous.
Personally, I think Judy has reached the “Nancy Owens” status, where it is totally pointless to argue with his constant and unchanging stream of nonsense.
What he says is either false or irrelevant; he is obviously either trolling of is the victim of pathological delusions; and to top it all, he is a steadfastly unrepentant criminal, unworthy of a dignified exchange.
From what I recall, the Mormon belief is that it is really hard to qualify for hell. He might end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom.
Obama is responsible for everything bad that happens in America? It sounds like a made-up standard to excuse irresponsible criticism.
Nearly derailed? Umm did your case get any further than your other failures? No? Then you didn’t “nearly derail” anything. Someone sure has delusions of grandeur.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! If by derailed you mean they were laughing their ass off at your attempt to scare them, you’d be right.
They treated your suit the same way Maher treated Trump’s $5 million suit against hair jokes…they made jokes about it and ignored it.
@Dr Kenneth Noisywster [ delusions of grandeur.]
Rest assured one of the “Dilusions of Grandeur” facing America now is that Electing someone based on a [False Core] is a good thing. You think Clinton’s ovaries are that attractive?
SEEING THE BIG PICTURE.. America elected Obama on Fraudulent conditions, cover-ups, touch ups, an appeal to pacifism, and contrary to Supreme Law of the Land.
While the appeal towards integrity of reason might have been paved as good intentions, it neglected the reality that it emptied the fridge, weakened the People, bewildered our Allies, while arming, fattening, and emboldened our enemies.
If America wanted a harder fight electing a Constitutionally unqualified person and Electing spineless cowards as pacifist was the right thing to do.
The Reality of Debt ,69K per person just in Obama’s watch, much richer enemies, 94M out of the workforce, relying on gradiose statistics aka. 5% unemplymnt farce, and and enemies that see the GREEN LIGHT, is that their shout of “Comply or Die” has always squared America’s Shoulders.
Of course you don’t have to fight.. They are happy to kill you anyway. .cuz yr noth’n but a FckHead to them: An infidel.
I think for all your couching behind 2 things: electing the first half black man and first half Muslim you don’t want to admit this was half hearted appeasment that satisfied no one.
Blacks are worse off then they were look at the Injustices, #waronpoor, the loss of hope in riots. And my God if you don’t feel sorry for most of the peaceful Muslim population before the latest terror accounts, you ought to now.
Their Trust account is waining very thin and regaining Trust is something that takes Centuries when populations start to move on justified suspicions.
All of Obama’s words from the Tele promptor are done, finished, wadded up in a big bag of poop and you are left defending a bunch of dried out cow pies in the desolate field .
This isn’t a Democrat or Republican issue.. Its an American issue.
And if you think for any diluted and polluted reason Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton can decorate that tree with the hopes fireflies will stick around with their butts lit up as lights for it, your Dilusions of Grandeur preceed all hope of reason and or must rely on upon continued corruption.
Her biggest problem was indeed not listening to her intuition and hoping that would work out. In the definition of stupid, no greater regret is known.
Hoping the FBI doesn’t indict her on what already is understood and known by the American Republic as the Grand Finallee of the Firework , I mean Email, Show, is the hope that Political Corruption entirely eclipse the American Landscape and the People be yet happy in darkness.
If you think that shit-show can come again with the Democrats begging for the money set aside for children to pay for the National Convention because Hillary’s great talent for burning through cash has not diminished with age, but has only been refined, you might start to grasp the hodge-a-podge your calling the Mona Lisa.
Take a good long look at what you call fabulous.. And I think you’ll see the definition of Delusions of Grandeur.
At least I have clung to the base of our tree.
Your picture is not a photograph, but a drawing from your personal biases and misinformation. It has no validity outside your own mind. Your court battles against Obama and McCain were based on lies and a false legal theory. Nothing good could have ever come of them, no matter how well-disposed the courts were to you personally. Nothing good can be built on a rotten foundation.
And that reminds one of the old chestnut, “Nuts don’t fall very far from the base of a tree.”
Judy has ALWAYS been irrelevant, except as a deserved object of ridicule. It’s just that he is even more irrelevant now.
@Doc [Your picture is not a photograph, but a drawing from your personal biases and misinformation]
Of course.. That explains it “)
https://twitter.com/CodyRobertJudy/status/677557531611258880
Why the Establishments are Losers Losing
#Utah Proud of @jasoninthehouse “You don’t have a clue do you?” Rep. #JasonChaffetz R-Utah, told #MicheleThorenBond speaking about the individual whereabouts of thousands of persons whose visas were revoked due to terrorism threats.
https://t.co/fY6LEzcupc
CRJ,
Please get a spell check; you misspell words so badly. Don’t you see how this would erode your credibility? Why should anyone take you seriously when you spell lying “lieing,” theocracies “theocracys” and delusions “dilusions” See, you make it painfully obvious that you don’t know the rules of adding “ing” to a verb” or writing the correct plural of words that end in “y.” Ordinarily a college graduate would have learned these things in freshman composition, if not in high school.
Also, your math is just as faulty. If Obama has added $69,000 in debt per person, the total additional debt would be $22.08 trillion, more than piled up under Obama and all his predecessors. . The total debt incurred under Obama’s is still under $6 trillion, although it will top this figure sometime in the current (2016) fiscal year.
Who says?
What does that mean?
You are aware……..oh, never mind.
Okay now you’re just getting offensive and off subject. Seriously GFY
I notice how nothing you said had anything to do with what I said to you. Try to get back on subject.
Nothing compares to your stolen valor photoshop job where you pinned a bunch of unearned medals on your chest. I remember you blocking me for calling you Generalissmo f***tard.
Nor does stating that a candidate is eligible mean the same thing as stating that the candidate is electable.
It there anyone who is an expert on having a “false core,” that would be Judy. Judy’s entire essence is based on lies and delusions.
Judy’s delusions notwithstanding, in reality President Obama was elected because he secured a majority of the votes in the Electoral College. Twice.
As no one here is “couching behind” either of those things, Judy’s attempt to push his prejudices on others is, as everything else he does, unsuccessful.
The only delusions of grandeur are Judy thinking his illiteracy is compelling in any form.
Judy persists on ignoring Doc’s reasonable request to stay on topic; Doc even provides an open thread, but Judy acts as if the rules don’t apply to him.
Taitz is reporting that it cost her $2,000 to take off time from work (i.e., the dental practice she owns) and travel to Texas for the hearing held earlier this week.
You still have to moderately capable to use spell check, and capable of spelling to some degree, plus being intelligent enough to know which word is the right word. Cody fails on both points.
On one level, it means he’s a misogynist twit. On a deeper level, it helps explain why his wife left him.
Which one?
I think it bothers me that you guys – Bob and Arthur – know so much about this guy.
Judy keeps telling us to read his blog, so I did; it’s all there.
Tatiz is delusional to the point that she believes if she appears in person before Hanen, that she will be able to charm him into granting her the right to intervene. It’s one of the reasons why she doesn’t like to appear before female members of the judiciary. The simple fact that she has never succeeded in using her feminine wiles to persuade any judge to grant her any of her requests prior to this case will also never occur to her. $2k? Considering the way she spends money for VIP convention status, that’s nothing to her, just a drop in the bucket.
Thanks. I’ll sleep better tonight knowing that.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, most of the adults who are “out of the workforce” are voluntarily not working. Some have retired (baby boomers reaching retirement age), some have left the workforce for other personal reasons (such as staying home to raise children), some are full-time students, etc.
For example, of the 92 million people who were not in the workforce at the end of 2014, only 6.4 million wanted a job.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat35.htm
You claim to be a real candidate for president, yet you apparently do not know that the FBI can’t indict anyone.
First of all, no one is begging for money “set aside for children.” You really need to stop lying about such things. The money to help pay for the national conventions would, if approved, come from the Presidential Election Campaign Fund, which is funded by voluntary contributions by taxpayers. It has nothing to do with money set aside for children.
It also has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton’s campaign spending. It is the Democratic and Republican National Committees which pay for the conventions, not the individual candidates.
I find Nancy’s shtick entertaining and don’t pick up a hate vibe… reminds me of Squeeky in a way..
With Judy…. strong is the vibe.
I think what you feel / react to is the fact that Judy is basically a very bad man, despite his Uriah Heepish demeanor. That comes through clearly enough because he’s not that good of a dissimulator.
At least, Owens is reasonably laconic. Judy just rambles on and on.
If HILLARY is getting a Coranation, I think she should pay the 20M for the fake convention out of her Billion?
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/13/dnc-craves-tax-dollars-for-convention/
It was only last year when lawmakers nixed money for the conventions, deciding the political parties and their presidential nominees — who each raised $1 billion in 2012 — didn’t need help from taxpayers anymore.
Congress instead called for the money to be used to finance research on children’s diseases at the National Institutes of Health
The DNC is facing tough financial circumstances. The latest report shows it had just $4.7 million in cash on hand as of Oct. 31, less than the $6.9 million in debts the committee reported. By contrast, the Republican National Committee reported $20.4 million in cash, offset by $1.9 million in debts.
Speaking of Heepish character
Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who is also a congresswoman from Florida, has drafted a bill to restore money that both parties used to receive from the federal government to help defray the costs of running their quadrennial conventions.
I guess it is impossible for Judy to stay on topic, which in this case is Taitz (and Arpaio) and the states’ lawsuit.
A bit late, but still true:
The danger that kills is the guns in the hands of everybody.
Clinton getting a carnation?
It’s not just the criminals: since 9/11, over 100 times as many Americans have been killed by accidental discharges of (usually) legally-owned guns as by jihadis.
The Trumpistas get really irate when you ‘splain to them how badly they suck at threat assessment. 😉
sharpton interviews arpaio: Joe Arpaio on Trump, birther conspiracy
arpaio on obama’s birth certificate: it’s a “fake document”
http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation
Why is it that the reporters are always the ones to bring up the birther stuff with Arpaio but then never challenge his claims? The just let him make the claim and then they change the subject.
This interview raises one of the central issues at the core of modern-day birtherism, one that I’ve put to many birthers on many occasions without any meaningful response.
Some birthers claim that the smoking gun, the “universe shattering evidence,” will finally show that the documents are fake, that the birthers were right along. But that claim also supports the idea that we anti-birthers are right when we say that the case for forgery has simply not (at least not yet) been made.
Note that that’s not the position that Arpaio takes. He claims that the proof of fakery is already out there, and the problem is simply that no one wants to consider it.
Those two positions are contradictory, and I wish Sharpton had been sufficiently familiar with the facts to question Aarpaio about it.
I wonder, is john around? He is one to whom I’ve addressed this question.
Several reasons: First, they don’t know what they’re talking about. Second, they’re too lazy to figure it out before they ask questions. And, finally, they really don’t want to piss off the people they’re interviewing.
I read the following story in 1968 and I have never forgotten it.
Girl kills herself to save her dog
PHOENIX, Ariz., Feb. 6 (AP) – Linda Marie Ault killed herself, policemen said, rather than make her dog Beauty pay for her night with a married man.
“I killed her. I killed her. It’s just like I killed her myself,” a detective quoted her grief-stricken father as saying.
“I handed her the gun. I didn’t think she would do anything like that.”
The 21-year-old Arizona State University coed died in a hospital yesterday of a gunshot wound in the head. The police quoted her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Ault, as giving this account:
Linda failed to return home from a dance in Tempe Friday night. On Saturday she admitted she had spent the night with an Air Force Lieutenant.
The Aults decided on a punishment that would “wake Linda up.” They ordered her to shoot the dog she had owned about two years.
On Saturday, the Aults and Linda took the dog into the desert near their home. They had the girl dig a shallow grave. Then Mrs. Ault grasped the dog between her hands, and Mr. Ault gave his daughter a .22-caliber pistol and told her to shoot the dog.
Instead, the girl put the pistol to her right temple and shot herself.
I remember that story too. I was living in Tucson at the time. I’m not sure I ever believed the Ault’s story – the girl was 21 years old, and adult capable of making her own decisions about whether she wanted to be sexually active or not. There was some pretty darn strong inappropriate pressure put on her by those incompetent, nincompoop parents (that’s just about the most gentle epithet I could come up with). It was just insanely tragic and completely 100% avoidable.
IIRC, they were eventually charged with manslaughter, but I don’t remember how it came out.
one of my favourite examples……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE
having worked in the firearms trade, guns do not scare me – but i am scared of idiots with guns!
You are correct, they were charged with involuntary manslaughter. I haven’t found anything about the outcome.
A few months later, they were acquitted.
A Phoenix couple was found innocent yesterday of a felony charge of involuntary manslaughter filed in connection with the suicide death of their 21-year-old daughter. Judge William A. Holohan dismissed a Superior Court trial jury after directing a verdict of acquittal for Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Ault upon a motion made by the defense as the prosecution rested after xk days of testimony.
Thanks, Pete. As a sign of the those times (I suppose), I couldn’t find a single news story which mentions Mrs. Ault’s first name. She is always referred to as “Mrs. Joseph Ault.”
Since Linda was 21 in 1968, her parents would likely be in their late eighties (at least) if still alive today.