I really enjoy making up sensational headlines, and then backing down in the article. In this case the Supreme Court is the current one (not Taney’s racist pre Civil War court) and the opinion was issued just yesterday in Arizona v. United States, a case deciding the authority of the states in regulating immigration.
Justice Scalia, “concurring in part and dissenting in part,” cited Emer de Vattel’s Law of Nations on state sovereignty. I don’t know if Vattel would have approved Scalia’s conflation of “state of the United States” with “country,” but that’s beside the point.
What does this have to do with Obama? In practical terms, it will only excite the birthers who will go all hyperbolic about how important Vattel is. In practical terms, Justice Scalia is already on record saying presidential eligibility is jus soli (birth in the country) and so it doesn’t have any bearing on Obama’s eligibility.
Thanks to a commenter for the tip.
Comments are closed on this article due to the large number. If you would like to leave additional comments, place them here:
“SCOTUS cites Vattel: a shot over Obama’s bow? (continued)“.
Apuzzo is already hinting on John Woodmans’ blog that Scalia’s citing of Vattel was exactly that, a wink wink nod nod to birthers.
Its very telling that its the only thing Aputzo has posted on his website, since getting his butt stomped in court.
Joy has been restored to Birtherstan.
Anydaynowanydaynowanydaynowanydaynow.
Scalia has tossed aside Commerce Clause precedent he cited as recently as 2005 in the Gonzales case.
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/24/scalias_scary_thinking/singleton/
He’s gone off the deep end. I wouldn’t put it past him to go full bore birther, too.
On a tangential note, Mad Ole Orly will be on an Ebil Libural Progressive radio show “The Stephanie Miller Show” and they have for the last hour been mocking Birfoons mercilessly.
MOO should be on at 11:40 ET
Link to linkies
http://www.stephaniemiller.com/listen-live/
Not a chance. He’s had plenty of opportunities to at least request a brief from the respondents, and never did so (it only takes one justice to require a response). Justice Scalia isn’t going to throw away the legacy as one of the greatest, most thoughtful, and seriously intellectual conservative minds to ever sit on the bench, to play with off the deep end conspiracy nuts. Not going to happen.
Dr. Conspiracy,
Contrary to what you say, Scalia did not improperly conflate “’state of the United States’” with “’country.’”
Evidently, you do not understand what “Free and Independent States” means.
The new states also relied upon the law of nations and there is no reason why they cannot continue to do so today to the degree that the Constitution allows them within the context of a federal system.
Under Article IV, Section 4, “The United States” is constitutionally obligated to guarantee every state “a Republican form of Government” and to “protect each of them against Invasion” and “domestic Violence.”
Furthermore, the Tenth Amendment provides: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Both Article IV and the Tenth Amendment express principles of self-preservation. State or nation self-preservation is a fundamental precept of the law of nations. Indeed, Scalia was correct in citing and quoting Vattel.
What this means is that if a certain rogue federal regime is bent on denying a state the protection that it needs in order to survive as a republic, to ward off invasion from without, and domestic violence from within, there is no constitutional impediment for that state to act to protect itself and to join with other states to achieve that same end.
Finally, your hypocrisy shines ever so brightly. You are so concerned about Justice Scalia conflating “’state of the United States’” with “’country,’” but with impunity you conflate and confound a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” with an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
The key thing here is that Scalia’s Vattel quote (from Book 2 Chapter VII) is correctly translated.
Whether or not it is relevant to the case, I have no idea, but I checked it against the original French and there is nothing wrong with the way it is used.
That is most definitely NOT the case with Apuzzo’s misinterpretation.
Oh, yes, Mario, by all means, let’s have a bunch of sovereign states in a customs and currency union. What could possibly go wrong?
Do you know how to read? That statement gives the Federal power the final authority.
… Yes, how very odd that the entire non-birther legal universe stubbornly inisists on that…
Hey, Mario… let’s get your mind working on something useful.
If the ACA (Obamacare) mandate is shot down due to interference of commerce concerns (regulation vs. non-regulation), then what say you about states (such as Arizona) forcing drivers to maintain auto insurance and de-registering car registrations when that insurance lapses. Do you believe states can regulate auto insurance but the federal government can’t regulate health insurance, or are you going to scream at states who are punishing uninsured drivers for not maintaining coverage and allowing it to lapse, thereby causing their registrations to be revoked? I’d like your opinion on this, thank you.
I didn’t develop this point, but my remark was not prompted directly by his citation of Vattel but the citation that follows immediately:
Being a southerner, I am very much aware of resolutions of “nullification” passed by states and localities in, for example, the area of school integration. The notion that a state can do whatever it damned well pleases except secede is a proposition that doesn’t sit well with me. And if a State cannot do as it pleases, then it is not quite sovereign. And if it is not quite sovereign, then citing Vattel is questionable and I might go so far as to say that the citation was begging the question. I know that Justice Scalia made an argument drawing a line between what is permissible and what is not; however, I still have reservations.
As for the second part of your comment:
This is nothing more than a straw man and a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. Since the beginning, all those born citizens of the United States were its natural born citizens. The 14th Amendment just restored the original status of those born in the country, erasing the pro-slavery decision of the Court in Dred Scott.
As I understand it under present law, there are three classes who are “citizens of the United States”: those born citizens in the United States, those naturalized in the United States (these two comprise 14th Amendment citizens) and those who are born citizens outside the United States according to Statute (first stated in the 1790 Naturalization Act). Of those three classes, citizens born in the States and citizens at birth born outside the United States are eligible for the Presidency. Congress in 1790 explicitly called the latter class “natural born citizens” recognizing that this simply means a citizen at birth.
So I very definitely do not conflate 14th Amendment “citizen of the United States” and “natural born citizen.” In fact I say that some citizens of the United States under the 14th Amendment are not natural born citizens (i.e. those naturalized in the United States), and further there are natural born citizens who are not citizens of the United States according to the 14th Amendment (those born citizens overseas).
I think you will find that the judges you have and will encounter in your cases have the same view.
God Mario you are rediculous. What a wasted “life”.
Dr. Conspiracy,
You overstate my states’ rights point and thus put forth a straw man argument by injecting into the discussion the Civil War. Of course, that is what you do best, overstate and distort others’ positions (and appeal to race and color) so as to gain some advantage.
As far as your use of the Fourteenth Amendment to declare that Mr. Obama is an Article II “natural born Citizen,” your argument fails quite easily. You have no evidence that the Fourteenth Amendment either expressly or by implication ever repealed or amended the Article II “natural born Citizen” clause. In fact, the amendment’s plain language uses the clause “citizen of the United States,” (and even includes into that class naturalized “citizens”) not “natural born Citizen.” Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 plainly informs that anyone who is a “Citizen of the United States” and who is born after the adoption of the Constitution is not eligible to be President. The only way that Mr. Obama can be eligible to be President is by showing that he is not only a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” per United States v. Wong Kim Ark, but that he is also a “natural born Citizen” per Minor v. Happersett.
mario:
between you and donofrio, i’m becoming embarrassed to admit i’m italian
do you have dual citizenship?
Yeah, that’s how Glenn Beck got away with a rape and murder – conservatives’ selective outrage.
That’s not hypocrisy – it’s tribalism.
No. Michelle Obama makes sure he only eats organic food, so he is completely natural.
I do the same thing: I buy Whole Foods yogurt which states “Antibiotic Free.”
Donna,
Get thee to a grammar school.
He is. Glad that he satisfied you. You see, someone born in the US was always a natural born citizen, whether pre- or post- 14th Amendment. This included the child of Patriick and Mary O’Grady, born on the docks 5 minutes after their arrival from Ireland. If they were not natural born cuitizens, they would have either had to naturalize or they would have been non-citizens. And, while there were millions of children born in the US to one or more non-ciitizen parents, even pre-14th Amendment, there are no records of such children ever naturalizing. And that includes those whose parents never naturalized.
I challenge you to show me records of naturalization of anyone born in the US (other than a few diplomat’s kids). Come on, show and tell time. And don’t give me “The 14th Amendment naturalized them”-what about those who died before that? Are you saying they weren’t citizens? Then prove it.
Do not be embarrassed. Castelbuono is the greenest town on Earth:
Four-Legged Garbage Collectors Hit Sicilian Streets – “I thought about what went on in the historic center of town,” recalled the mayor, “where the tourists come across these trucks spewing diesel fumes and stinking of garbage. They block the traffic, too. So I thought, why can’t we use something traditional, like our donkeys?”
Read on: http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3160105&page=1
Cuba – Si! Castro – Oops, wrong country.
Of course Mario is a US-Italian dual citizen. There is no doubt whatsoever. That is why he wants a customs and currency union of sovereign states-because that is working so well for Italy NOT!!!
Oh, I’ve heard this one before! The old joke where you refer someone to a case that specifically avoids defining the term at hand just do you can say , “Haha! Got ya!”
Might work if we hadn’t already read Minor. Nice try, putz.
“Get thee to a nunn’ry, why woulds’t thou be a breeder of sinners?” – Hamlet
Get thee to a library, and learn to properly quote Shakespeare.
Apparently Mario is afraid to address my post. Hmmm.
Ha, the Polonius in me immediately recognized Hamlet: Act 3, Scene 1, line 121. Yes, this is Apuzzo at his best.
Misha, the word nunnery in Shakespeare’s time meant brothel. I do not think Apuzzo is misquoting, he really means it.
Scientist,
Prior to the Cable Act of 1922, things were quite different in the area of naturalization for women and children.
“While original U.S. nationality legislation of 1790, 1795, and 1802 limited naturalization eligibility to “free white persons,” it did not limit eligibility by sex. But as early as 1804 the law began to draw distinctions regarding married women in naturalization law. Since that date, and until 1934, when a man filed a declaration of intention to become a citizen but died prior to naturalization, his widow and minor children were “considered as citizens of the United States” if they/she appeared in court and took the oath of allegiance and renunciation.(2) Thus, among naturalization court records, one could find a record of a woman taking the oath, but find no corresponding declaration for her, and perhaps no petition.
***
In innumerable cases under the 1855 law, an immigrant woman instantly became a U.S. citizen at the moment a judge’s order naturalized her immigrant husband. If her husband naturalized prior to September 27, 1906, the woman may or may not be mentioned on the record which actually granted her citizenship. Her only proof of U.S. citizenship would be a combination of the marriage certificate and her husband’s naturalization record. Prior to 1922, this provision applied to women regardless of their place of residence. Thus if a woman’s husband left their home abroad to seek work in America, became a naturalized citizen, then sent for her to join him, that woman might enter the United States for the first time listed as a U.S. citizen.(4)
In other cases, the immigrant woman suddenly became a citizen when she and her U.S. citizen fiance were declared “man and wife.” In this case her proof of citizenship was a combination of two documents: the marriage certificate and her husband’s birth record or naturalization certificate. If such an alien woman also had minor alien children, they, too, derived U.S. citizenship from the marriage. As minors, they instantly derived citizenship from the “naturalization-by-marriage” of their mother. If the marriage took place abroad, the new wife and her children could enter the United States for the first time as citizens. Again, if these events occurred prior to September 27, 1906, it is doubtful any of the children actually appear in what is, technically, their naturalization record. The lack of any record for those children’s naturalization might cause some of them, after reaching the age of majority, to go to naturalization court and become citizens again.”
***
Happily, Congress was at work and on September 22, 1922, passed the Married Women’s Act, also known as the Cable Act. This 1922 law finally gave each woman a nationality of her own. No marriage since that date has granted U.S. citizenship to any alien woman nor taken it from any U.S.-born women who married an alien eligible to naturalization.(11) Under the new law women became eligible to naturalize on (almost) the same terms as men. The only difference concerned those women whose husbands had already naturalized. If her husband was a citizen, the wife did not need to file a declaration of intention. She could initiate naturalization proceedings with a petition alone (one-paper naturalization). A woman whose husband remained an alien had to start at the beginning, with a declaration of intention. It is important to note that women who lost citizenship by marriage and regained it under Cable Act naturalization provisions could file in any naturalization court–regardless of her residence.(12).”
http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/1998/summer/women-and-naturalization-1.html
So as we can see, prior to the Cable Act of 1922, there was no motivation for naturalization petitions or records to exist on women and children. But the lack of such records does not prove that such women and children were not considered to be naturalized “citizens.” In fact, they were under the then-existing Acts of Congress.
Allen v. Arizona Democratic Party, Judge Richard E. Gordon Arizona Superior Court for Pima County.
“Most importantly, Arizona courts are bound by United States Supreme Court precedent, and this precedent fully supports that President Obama is a natural born citizen under the Constitution and thus qualified to hold the office of President. See United States v. Wong Kim Ark (addressing U. S. Const. amend. XIV) ; Ankeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana (addressing the precise issue). Contrary to Plaintiff’s assertion, Minor v. Happersett does not hold otherwise.”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/84531299/AZ-2012-03-07-Allen-v-Obama-C20121317-ORDER-Dismissing-Complaint
There is no court decision pertaining to President Obama that has ever found that he does not qualify as a natural born citizen and there has been no decision favorable to opponents of the president under Article II, Section 1 which relies on Minor v Happersett or Vattel’s Law of Nations as precedent for a ruling of ineligiblity.
…and yet, not a SINGLE Judge or respected, reputable constitutional scholar ANYWHERE agrees with your assertion.
Oh wait – Maybe Scalia, who showed with his ultra-partisan screed dissenting from the Arizona opinion that he has quite clearly lost his mind and has been on the bench far too long.
Misha,
Get thee to a vision center.
I hope Apuzzo understands that he sounds just as nutty as Lame Cherry, Sharon Rondeau, Dr. Kate, Orly Taitz, etc.
Not to mention that Minor’s entire definition isn’t an exclusive definition…
What Minor said is the following…
If you are born to citizen parents, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.
The birthers have taken this, and gone to a classical fallacy of denying the antecedent…
They have said, Obama isn’t born to 2 citizen parents, therefore he’s not a Natural Born Citizen.
Here’s another denying the antecedent:
If Queen Elizabeth is an American, then she is a human being.
Queen Elizabeth isn’t an American.
Therefore she’s not a human being.
I’m a NYS licensed optician. I’m doing fine, thank you.
Stop the bullcrap!! You know every well that there have been hundreds of thousands if not millions of US-born children whose parents NEVER naturalized. They may have died before the child was born (if the father), returned to their homeland or simply not naturalized for one reason or another. By your lights that child had to naturalize themselves at the age of majority. Yet of all those hundreds of thousands, or likely millions, you can’t show me one. One US-born naturalized citizen is all I’m asking for.
Yet dual citizen Apuzzo has none.
Humans have opposable thumbs.
Lemurs have opposable thumbs.
Therefore, you are a lemur.
dunstvangeet,
Can you please tells us how many definitions of a “natural born Citizen” the Founders and Framers had in mind when they wrote the “natural born Citizen” clause into the Constitution.
I particularly enjoyed the way he took your question looking for people born in the United States who had to be naturalized to be considered a citizen and responded with a screed about the naturalization process for immigrant women and children.
Lynch v. Clarke sure didn’t find that anyone was naturalized. Overlooking that, and granting your your entire post (Apuzzo is correct that once upon a time, naturalization of a husband covered the dependents, too), Scientist’s questions still stand for all > 1922.
So Mario my dear,
Do tell, EXACTLY how well did this personal opinion of yours go over in every single one of your cases..?
I mean, when you get your orutund ass handed to you, by a very young junior associate, it must have stung.
After all, as you keep telling all and sundry, you are this wunderkind Constitutional lawyer yet you have exactly and precisely a zero successful track record in every one of your sad little Birfer cases.
Really Mario, it’s time and past for you to go back to DUI cases, at least there you (hopefully) won’t be the complete and well recorded laughing stock you are in the wilds of Birferstan.
Can you Mario, give us just one definition they would have seen by 1787?
And don’t quote Vattel – you know full well that the term “natural born citizen” appeared in no translation of his work prior to 1797 (and BTW no American edition until 1817)
Speaking of hypocrisy, when are you going to come clean about the “Pakistan travel ban?”
Perfect example! Well done.
There were many, many cases where the husband never naturalized, either because he died soon after, returned to tthe home country or just chose to live in the US as a non-citizen resident (as he had every right to do). According to Apuzzo, those US-born children would not have been citizens. So, they would have had to naturalize on their own as adults. The naturalization records would state “Place of Birth: Anytown. USA”. Yet of all the many, many cases with those facts, not a single naturalization record of someone born in the US exists.
Did Barack Obama destroy all of those records dating back to 1790? I mean I kknow he is thorough, but that is too much even for him.
Wow, the silence from Mario on my post regarding state mandated auto insurance vs federally mandated healthcare insurance (states vs federal rights and which has higher authority) is DEAFENING!
Mario, the definition of a Natural Born Citizen is “A person born within the jurisdiction of a national government.” (Black’s law dictionary, 9th edition). Black’s Law Dictionary is the pre-eminent law dictionary of the United States. It’s been cited thousands of times by the Supreme Court to provide definitions on various materials.
You’re definition is under that category, but it isn’t the only one.
In fact, anybody who is born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, falls under that definition. So does anybody who is born a citizen.
MattR,
Found by internet researcher rxsid and commented upon by Attorney Leo Donofrio, here is what the James Madison (the Father of the Constitution) Administration thought about a child born in the United States to alien parents. Publius stated in October 7, 1811, in The Alexandria Herald, concerning the “Case of James McClure:”
“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”
Secretary of State, James Monroe, eventually declared James McClure to be a “Citizen of the United States” under the Naturalization Act of 1802, not a “natural born Citizen.” But that was, as the historical record of the James McClure case clearly shows, only because his father naturalized several months before he was born while his son was dwelling in the United States. And this historical record totally supports my interpretation of the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. The James Madison Administration did not even considered that child a “citizen” at the time.
This historical evidence, from none other than James Madison, completely destroys the thesis that the Founders and Framers gave to a “natural born Citizen” the same meaning as the English common law gave to a “natural born subject.” On the other hand, it completely supports my position that a “natural born Citizen,” under American common law, which had its origins in the law of nations and which became national law, is a child born in the country to citizen parents.
mario:
Donna,
Get thee to a grammar school.
so you criticized my grammar but were UNABLE to answer my question?
Mario:
I’ve read your posts today with great interest, and I have to say that I do agree….. those are, most definitely, a lot of words.
One question for you, if I may….
Have you won any court cases with that birther crap?
No?
Allllllllrighty then.
… who claims to be the actual physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God. So obviously we can trust Leo as a source for absolute truth.
Yes, I have to agree, kicking against the bricks is silly. Especially when done on a topic of such, basic, common knowledge.
I have been working through some old texts, 1880 – 1950, each of which gives definitions of citizenship, details how citizenship is acquired, and gives an overview of the naturalization process. Since naturalization is relegated to Congress and thus subject to legislation, it changes over time, and the changes from one account at one time to another account from another time are of interest. But I have yet to find any account that says anything about a need for or a process by which a person born here to be naturalized in order to gain citizenship.
If you’re born in US terriroty, you’re a natural born citizen. No conditions apply. Every text agrees on that.
Now, if you’re not born here, then teh list of conditions regarding naturalization, and conditions for even entering the country at all, will make your head spin. But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it? 😉
Thought, hints, blah, blah, blah. To paraphrase Cuba Gooding in “Jerry Maguire”-Show me the naturalization records! There were millions of kids born in the US to non-citiizen fathers and in many cases the father never naturallized. Show me the records!!! Show me the records!!!
You can’t be cause they don’t exist So you FAIL.
Mario, get THEE to a law school whose diplomas aren’t found on the back of a box of fruity pebbles. You birthers have yet to win CASE ONE! Considering that y’all have been trying in several states, and NONE of them are going along with your fantasy, you would think that one of you would go “Gee, maybe it is WE who are wrong!”. Lastly, what kind of self-imporant putz refers to themselves as “esquire”? Only two people I can think of, and both of them are completely incompetent “lawyers”. I use the word “lawyer” extremely loosely with people like you. You are as much a proper lawyer, as Corsi and Farah are proper journalists.
Just one.
“It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States
Source: James Madison 22 May 1789 Papers 12:179–82
http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/james-madison-on-jus-soli/
One stray newspaper article? From 1811? Long before citizenship issues had been ruled on by courts? Newspapers are legal precedents?
I have to agree with Scientist. Find the naturalization of any person born on US soil.
Or assert that they all lived here as non-citizens … in which case we should have millions of multi-generational non-citizens liveing here as an underclass! There are plenty of people who wishes that were true, but clearly it isn’t.
It always leads back to a silly birther wish for a definition of NBC as a super secret club, doesn’t it?
And let’s continue …. if kids born here to non-citizden parents have to be naturalized, do children of naturalized citizens also have to be naturalized? Oh, please do say yes, Apuzzo, please say yes.
Their hate for President Obama will never allow them to stop. Ever. Sick, sick people.
You are one dishonest SOB aren’t you? It is an anonymous op-ed published in a newspaper, that actually directly contracts Madison’s known writings.
In otherwords, legally meaningless, and quite far from being “what the James Madison…Administration thought.”
Mr. Apuzzo:
I’d like to try a different tack, here. You are an educated and intelligent man; you cannot have missed the reality that no court sees this matter your way. Even if you assume J. Scalia has gone Vattelist, yesterday’s opinion clearly demonstrates that the Vattelist view holds no sway with the Supreme Court.
Given the certainty of failure in the courts, why don’t you pursue an Amendment? It should be no trouble at all finding birther/teapartier Reps. to sponsor it; a Senator might be a harder egg to crack, but the ranks of anti-immigration hawks should provide fertile ground to plow.
Could it be you know this route is equally doomed to certain failure – and you can’t figure out a way to stay in the limelight if you do this?
Because that wouldn’t have the desired effect of delegitimizing a properly elected and sworn president. The goal isn’t to change the Constitution. The goal is to undermine President Barack Obama, by any means necessary.
If Apuzzo is declaring that news paper articles as fact, then he already has the proof that says Obama was born in Hawaii.
Mario needs to go back to doing what he does best, looking like a clueless extra from a mob movie.
I still can’t get over that he made a play from the internet troll’s handbook: “When someone has you dead to rights, point out their grammar/spelling errors.” You know who resorts to that? 14 year olds on Gamefaqs.
Andrew vrba,
That is not where I went to law school, fool.
linda,
Sorry, but James Madison’s statement pertains to being a “Citizen of the United States” which applies to being a member of Congress, not being a “natural born Citizen” which applies to being President.
Surprise! Mario refuses to answer any of the questions put to him. And proved Andrew’s point regarding response a la 14 year olds.
Why? Because it doesn’t fit his narrative. He spews his usual chunks of discredited word-salad, and bolts, secure in the knowledge that he sure showed us!
Meanwhile, we can enjoy being secure in the knowledge that he will never, ever win an eligibility case. 🙂
“The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President” -12th Amendment
Now who was that in 2008?
Birther in a time machine, borrowing the much used and abused pen name of “Publius” 😉
Sir, you cut me to the quick, I-
…Never mind it was just gas. I must have inhaled some of your hot air.
Well considering your birther success record, wherever you did go to law school, you should consider asking for your money back.
Funny how you or your birther brethern have completely failed to convince a single court of this. Even more amusing is the fact that the courts have been rejecting the notion that there are different types of born citizens even before there were birthers and it was only tax protesters and sovereign citizen nuts making these arguments.
Minor v. Happesett said:
“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.”
Id., at 167-68.
What did the majority of the U.S. Supreme Court (9 U.S. Supreme Court Justices) in Minor say about children born in the U.S. to alien parents? “[T]here have been doubts” whether those children were “citizens.” If those children were “citizens” as you all claim, don’t you think the U.S. Supreme Court would have known about it and would not have said that “there have been doubts” whether those children were “citizens?”
The reality is that not until Wong Kim Ark, replacing “citizen” parents with “domiciled” parents, declared those children “citizens of the United States” was that question finally resolved. But again, that question was whether those children were “citizens,” not “natural born Citizens.” And Wong, in fact, held those children to be Fourteenth Amendment “citizens of the United States,” not Article II “natural born Citizens.”
In your opinion….
An opinion which is shared by no one but a handful of conspiracy nutbags.
And certainly not shared by the courts, by any credentialed and peer reviewed Constitutional expert, by Congress….. need i go on?
And yet you still can’t convince a court that is what they believe….
Hmm…..
BillTheCat,
You are a worthless fool and even ashamed to call yourself a lawyer.
I love the insistence that there is such a classification. Since Article II did not define “natural born citizen”, how could there be an “Article II natural born citizen”? As opposed to what other kind of “natural born citizen”?
President Obama was born in the country of parents who were citizens (parents must pick up their children by 5 PM does not require both parents to show up).. Vattel didn”t say both parents, Minor v Happersett didn’t say both parents. When the law requires both of 2 things to be true, it says so plainly and clearly. The 2 citizen parent nonsense is strictly your imagination.
Running around the internet on everyone else’s blogs spouting your utter and complete bullshit (and preventing others from posting on yours) which you either know is wrong and are willing to lie about it, or you don’t know, in which case your law school (Temple) would be embarrassed to read it, does not make you correct.
Courts continue to completely reject your (and all birthers) stupid interpretation of the Constitution and of SCOTUS opinions.
I suppose we should actually be thanking birthers for continuing to establish precedent that proves them wrong over and over
I would think an attorney would be embarrassed that his name is more linked with the word “frivolous” than “excellent attorney” or even “good.” Of course if the word “candor” remained in his vocabulary and he remembered his obligation of candor to the courts that would not be the case, now would it?
And yet every court that has recently addressed this very same issue said your argument is utter B.S.? Furthermore, everytime a tax protester/sovereign citizen nut tried to claim that 14th Amendment citizenship is some kind of new catagory of citizenship, it was rejected when they started making these arguments 25 years ago. This isn’t even a new nut bag legal theory. You’re simply recycling rejected nut bag legal theories.
Hanging your own failings on others, I see.
Your clients are the dregs of society. You are not a Constitutional lawyer, and neither is that malcontent refugee,
SvetlanaOrly Taitz, nor that poker player with a law degree.You are the fool, not Andrew.
Some reason I’m all of a sudden in moderation, Doc?
Exactly.
BINGO!
Well said Misha! Agreed.
The facts are that Mario has been failing all along with his long debunked claims, his cases have all been dismissed like all the rest of the one hundred plus other birther cases. Birthers as a group have amassed what must be the worst record in US court history for losing.
So Mario please explain WHY all your cases have failed? Simple question.
Assuming that the quote is accurate, how do you conclude that “Publius” was James Madison? Are there any examples of Madison using that pseudonym after 1788?
A search of the James Madison Papers turns up no record of this letter. In fact, if you search the James Madison Papers at the Library of Congress you find no mention whatsoever of James McClure.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/madison_papers/
So you attribute an anonymous letter to Madison with no evidence whatsoever that he wrote it.
And how about that Pakistan travel ban?
Complete and utter lie. You do know the Cable Act was repealed in 1936? I called your friend Lenny Daneman on this lie earlier:
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-45077/0-0-0-48438.html
A woman’s nationality would not be taken from her for marrying a foreigner. it would take an actual renunciation on her part.
Wow he really is grasping at straws, if all he has are obscure, repealed laws.
Must be something you said starting with “s”.
Rickey,
Are you also doing to deny that James Monroe, as Secretary of State, wrote a letter dated November 27, 1811 to “Joel Barlow Esq” who was in Paris regarding the James McClure citizenship case?
realist,
Your BS sounds just like that of the good Professor, Reality Check. You are probably one and the same.
Super Mario I’m curious as to how you can claim Obama isn’t eligible for not having two citizen parents while at the same time you have claimed Obama Sr wasn’t really his father and that Malcolm X or someone else was. How do you square those two conflicting ideas?
And yet with this mountain of evidence supporting your legal theory that Barack Obama is some sort of third type of citizen as yet undefined (not truly natural born and yet not truly naturalized) has not been considered anything more than laughable by any court or judge in the land?
Hmmmmmm
No proof that Monroe wrote as Publius in this letter.
Well someone is spouting BS, but I’m banking that it is from the local “Esq”.
Sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle.
Actually, Publius was the pseudonym of Alexander Hamilton who had used the name during the War. Later John Jay joined Hamilton in the Federalist project under the Publius banner. After 5 essays by Hamilton and 4 by Jay, James Madison joined the team. Jay dropped out in early November 1787 when he came down with rheumatoid arthritis.
Referencing Brookhiser’s biography of Madison, there is no mention of the use of the Publius pseudonym by him outside the Federalist project.
Because it was Hamilton’s longstanding pseudonym, it hardly seems likely that Madison ever used it independently.
I think once again the birthers are trying to pull a fast one. This anonymous Publius “letter to the editor” carries no more weight than the ones today by E. Publius Goat.
Of course, outside of Mario’s delusional world, Monroe said that McClure’s birth in the United States was sufficient to make him a citizen and of course never said he was naturalized. Such would obviously not be the case with respect to a naturalized citizen. Mario has no evidence to support his silly contention other than he has decided that “citizen” with a big “C” means “naturalized citizen.” Seriously, that is his argument. I really am not kidding.
Of course, no one in history has ever made such a claim so he is just making stuff up. And the term “citizen of the United States” appears in the Constitution and contempoary statutes in contexts that cannot possibly mean “naturalized citizen.” This has been pointed out to him and he has no reply other to insist he is right. This is the level of desperation of birthers as they now have to re-define terms without any legal support to try to make an arguement. It is any wonder they are laughed out of every court they appear.
“Found by internet researcher rxsid”
bwahahahaha
rxsid is a previous Phil Bergbot, and deluded freeper, among other things.
Internet researcher indeed. By that comparison so is my sever-year-old grandson.
That’s pretty weak Mario, even for you. Though not surprising.
You should just site Donofrio’s or your own blog for authority. It would be just as accurate.
It didn’t say they were not citizens and didn’t say the doubts were about a type of citizenship other than natural born citizenship. To say otherwise is simply being dishonest. Do you really want me to point out again how many times Wong Kim Ark said natural born citizen is defined by the English common law, that natural born subject and citizen mean the same thing, that our common law of citizenship was the same as England, that children of aliens have always been native born citizens and that the 14th Amendment and NBC clause mean the same thing. Of course, when I make such citations, you just ignore them and pretend that they don’t exist as what else can you say? Of course, every modern court that has addressed the issue has had no problem understanding what WKA says. Good thing we have judges who can read plain English.
Man, I KNEW I recognized the rxsid moniker but couldn’t remember where. THANKS! I’ve chuckled over many a Freeper Birther thread typed out by rxsid!
Nice misdirection, but I didn’t say anything about James Monroe, and I fail to see what Monroe has to do with your claim that James Madison wrote the letter which appeared in the Alexandria newspaper.
Now, about that Pakistan travel ban…
Your skills of deduction and reasoning once again shining through… wrong again.
The only BS being being slung here is by you, and you’re full of it. And you either know you’re full of it and don’t care or you’re completely ignorant.
Or perhaps it’s just an indication that DUI attorney doesn’t translate well to constitutional attorney.
i certainly don’t remember doing so, but if so my apologies.
Here’s the kicker: The great and wonderful case, Minor v. Happersett, that all birthers bow down to, was a turd and is not even valid law anymore. I bet not 1 birther in 50 knows what the RULING in the case was (rather than the few liines the birthers quote)-that women had no right to vote. Yes, that is the great miinor v. Happersett in all its glory. An epicly crappy decision and one with zero validity today. Mario, I believe you were or are married. If your wife eligible to vote? If so, then how can Minor v. Happersett have any weight? Especially since the case wasn’t even about presidential eligibility.
It was and is bad law and you are a worse lawyer for pretending it’s some kind of touchstone.
I just reviewed my copy of “James Madison: Writings” (Library of America, 1999). There are no examples of Madison writing anything as “Publius” after 1788 and no writings whatsoever about the McClure case.
Why waste time on Apuzzo?
He’s just a blowhard intoxicated with his fifteen pointless minutes of fame, one who will never admit he’s wrong no matter how much reality refuses to play along. You can find exactly the same type sitting at the end of most bars.
Oh, it’s older than that! The idea of “federal citizenship” as opposed to state citizenship, in various names and guises has been handed now like an heirloom for nearly 150 years, from one generation of rightwing extremists to the next. Birthers aren’t racists, they just steal the IP of racists. 😉
Knock knock.
Who’s there?
Mario.
Mario who?
Mff mlgb pzzfx.
Take your head out of your butt so we can hear you.
Actually, in the brief submitted to the Court the attorneys for the US argued exactly that.
“Are Chinese children born in this country to share with the descendants of the American Revolution the exalted qualification of being elegible to the Presidency of the nation, conferred by the Constitution in recognition of the importance and dignity of citizenship by birth? If so, then verily there has been a most degenerate departure from the patriotic ideals of our forefathers; and surely in that case American citizenship is not worth having.”
http://tinyurl.com/3d552bj
And in his dissent, Chief Justice Fuller said “Considering the circumstances surrounding the framing of the Constitution, I submit that it is unreasonable to conclude that “natural-born citizen” applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances, and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the Presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not.”
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/169/649/case.html
It is obvious that while WKA was not a candidate, the parties involved knew that a ruling saying he was a citizen at birth would mean WKA was eligible to be President.
scotus site Vattel?? LMAO. If any of these fake law degree bloggers would have cited Vattel for the reasons of state sovereignty they would have been ridiculed. But not so much anymore now that a sitting Justice did it. Pathetic morons. I would go as far as saying this. What we can learn from the Arizona decision is the following: listen up juris morons: If Scotus determined that the states have no right to remove an illegal alien from their territory Scotus will eventual incorrectly rule as well that the states should have no right to remove anyone from state ballot on the grounds of presidential elligibility. You can take it to the bank.
@Scientist:
He won’t be able to find the records you are asking for, because they do not exist.
My G-Grandfather (along with his wife and two children) came to this country in 1907. My G-Grandfather naturalized in late 1915. My G-Uncle and my G-Aunt were born in the United States prior to my G-Grandfather naturalizing. Two other children (including my Grandfather) were born post-naturalization.
How do I know this? I have his naturalization paperwork and it clearly shows two children born in the Dolidal, Hungary and two children born in the US on the paperwork.
According to the US Census Records from 1910 and 1920, along with a state census from 1915, the family was listed as “A” for alien in 1910 and 1915, and NA for naturalized in 1920. With the exception of the children that had been born in the US. There was nothing in the columns 13-15 for them on the 1920 census. Which tells me they were neither alien nor naturalized. Which makes them Natural Born.
So, he won’t find that type of record, because it does not exist. Everything I was taught in school, both in the US and overseas in DoDDS schools was that if you are born in the US you are a Natural Born Citizen and there are only two types of citizens: Natural Born and Naturalized. A person is either one or the other.
So, what are you sitting on?
Well just search for “s***” and you will find it above.
Yeah, but what about my cat?
A douchebag.
Jojo, thanks for sharing that family history. 🙂
Look under posts by Apuzzo and you will find nothing but.
linda,
That is all nice what the government argued and what the dissent said in a super dicta sentence. But it is the holding of the majority of the Court that becomes binding precedent.
I finally found it, attached to “bull”.
As I said, my apologies I had no idea the word filter was that sensitive here.
I swear if I ever get an honest answer to this question from a birfer, I will faint dead away!!! Or maybe I will celebrate by running naked across the White House lawn.
Seriously, it takes a real idiot to somehow convince him/herself that losing means winning because I only lost because EVERY SINGLE JUDGE/LAWYER/PERSON WITH POWER TO DO SOMETHING has been bought off, threatened, etc. ad nauseum………sheesh!!
I prefer:
“What fools these birthers be.”
Indeed.
You should ferret out hat holding in Minor.
The dissent clearly shows the what the minority’s understanding was of the majority opinion. non?
And it certainly is not what you state the holding is. Wonder why that is? Really stupid justices I suppose?
That must be the case with modern judges as well, including the federal judges who have explicitly held that Obama is a natural born citizen and completely rejected the two citizen parent nonsense. Or were they simply bought of like all the other 140+ were to thwart your brilliance?
Citing a random “internet researcher”, Mario?
Huh, nice double standard you have there.
Actually, it shows how gullible birthers are and how irresponsible they are repeating tales that are almost certainly false, since the Publius pseudonym belonged to Alexander Hamilton, not James Madison. It is only associated with Madison through his collaboration with Hamilton in the writing of the Federalist essays. It me two minutes to find that out.
“Historical evidence” my ass. It’s birther bullshit.
Unfortunately, the filter cannot distinguish between words and and parts of words. But there is no apology necessary. I don’t prohibit the word; I just want to review the context first. Perhaps I should remove the filter, since I don’t ever recall deleting a comment for an obscene word.
Dr. Conspiracy,
Publius writes a letter to a Virginia newspaper, The Alexandria Herald, which the newspaper published on October 7, 1811. The content of his letter surely sounds like he knew all the obscure details of what was going on with James McClure, including being well-versed with Congress’s naturalization acts and the citizenship laws of Virginia. He also makes many references in the letter to other historical sources.
Then Secretary of State, James Monroe, writes a letter dated November 27, 1811 (just 51 days later), to “Joel Barlow Esq.,” who was in Paris, in which he references various historical sources, including the involvement of Representative Landon Cheves, and the opinion of Supreme Court Justice William Johnson. In that letter, Secretary James Monroe states that Justice Johnson concluded, based on “affidavits and certificates,” “that agreeable to the laws and usage of the United States,” James McClure was a “Citizen of the United States” (his exact words as stated in Monroe’s letter, including the capital “C” which clearly refers to “Citizen of the United States” as written in Article I and II). Those “certificates” would have included the naturalization certificate of James McClure’s father. Surely, someone like Justice Johnson would have known whether to say “natural born Citizen” or “Citizen of the United States.” After all, the Constitution in Article I and II and all Congressional Acts made the clear distinction. The Founders were very exacting in the use of their words, especially a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James McClure was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1787, which was after independence and the revolution, to a British subject who naturalized in South Carolina on February 20, 1786. Note, Justice Johnson did not say that James McClure was a “natural born Citizen,” even though under English common law he would have been a “natural born subject.” I have shown on John Woodman’s blog how both Justice Johnson and Representative Cheves followed the citizenship philosophy of Emer de Vattel and not that of William Blackstone’s jus soli English common law.
The historical record of the James McClure case documents how McClure was considered a naturalized “Citizen of the United States” under the Naturalization Act of 1802, gaining that citizenship status when his father naturalized in South Carolina on February 20, 1786 which was after his son’s birth and when his son was dwelling in the United States. The James McClure citizenship case proves that the early naturalization acts applied to children born in the United States and that they treated any child born in the United States to alien parents as aliens themselves until the parents naturalized if done before the child reached the age of majority and was dwelling in the United States at that time. This McClure case also proves that the Lynch v. Clarke New York court erred in how it interpreted the early naturalization acts. This was the James Madison Administration that so applied the Naturalization Act of 1802, which said the same thing as the acts of 1790 and 1795 regarding the treatment of children whose parents naturalized after their birth. Hence, the Founders and Framers could not have considered a child born in the United States to alien parents to be a “natural born Citizen.”
Birthers are an opportunistic infection.
Agreed. Although I suspect you can often find him sitting there too…
I am indeed ashamed to call myself a lawyer. Because I’m not.
One does not need to be a lawyer to plainly see how bad of one you are.
…but still……..
For now, just use the shorthand BS. The filter never stops it and everyone knows what it stands for.
As others have pointed out, BS describes Mario and his screeds to a T.
Agreed! Well put.
No, you said the question was whether those children were citizens, not natural born citizens. Clearly, the question put to the Court by the government was whether they were natural born citizens, eligible for the presidency.
Of course, a dissent isn’t precedent, but it is evident that the dissenting Justices understood that by the Court ruling WKA was a citizen at birth, it ruled he was a natural born citizen.
Linda,
You fail to understand that it does not matter what the dissent understood the majority to mean. After all, the dissent is the dissent. What matters is what the majority said and meant which we can read and glean on our own from its written words.
And you seem to fail at law! You are such a bad lawyer, that the only thing which separates you from Orly Taitz, is that you would look better in bargain bin mascara than she does.
At some point the courts will tire of you and your ilk, and start slapping the lot of you with sanctions, for wasting their time and energy, when they could be trying cases that actually matter.
Hmmm … child born in 1785, father naturalized in South Carolina in 1786, Constitution ratified 1789, Naturalization Acts passed in 1790, 1795, and 1802 … a Latin phrase comes to mind .. what was it … ah, ex post facto. The putz wants us to believe that this McClure’s citizenship was subject to multiple revisions!
As the writer of the letter in the Herald noted:
Does a passport state whether you are natural born or not? When you apply for a Passport, does it decide if you are naturalized, natural born or a Citizen? When you fill out an I-9, do you state Natural Born or just Citizen.
In the cases, all that is requested or stated is Citizen (or National). It does not state Natural Born or not because it is not necessary for the purpose. Justice Johnson was not determining if McClure could run for President so he did not need to state Natural Born. All that they needed to know was that he was a citizen.
Did Justice Johnson call McClure a Naturalized Citizen? If he was naturalized as you claim, wouldn’t someone like Justice Johnson known whether to say Naturalized or Natural born, or Mario’s “Citizen in Limbo?”
Sorry, only the Sovereign Citizens get in a twist over their Magical Word Definitions. The rest of us understand the common usage then and now and understand it real use in law.
Oops.
Ok.. would you like to go back to quoting the dissent of Marshall in The Venus, or Scalia’s dissent using Vattel, or maybe David Ramsey who lost the debate?
BTW, may I quote you when you use the dissent in WKA as support?
The holding was that women couldn’t vote. Women vote- therefore no precedent. Minor vs Happersett was a garbage case. And you are a garbage lawyer. Garbage in, garbage out.
According to Mario, if I say my dog is a dog, then he can’t be a Brittany.
Mario has said some dumb things, but this latest argument may take the cake.
Guys, I think he’s starting to realize that none of us are buying it. LOL.
Apparently not. I believe your view of the decision in WKA is skewed, so I pointed to the contemporaneous understanding of parties involved in the case.
Maybe if we all start over at the beginning? 😉
You’re right. That is a bit much even for him. That’s the real reason behind his recent use of executive privilege. It has nothing to do with Fast & Furious actually. That’s all just a smoke screen for covering up these documents from earlier centuries. See how it all comes back to matters of birth?
Note: irony at work.
Mario Apuzzo, it seems you have not reflected enough upon what the judges have already told you: your arguments are without merit.
Get thee to a meritless-ocracy. Then you might have a chance.
Notice Mario never responds to my points. Making up that “citizen” with a big “C” means naturalized citizen when no one in history has ever said such a thing is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.
They said the certificates showed he was born in the US and mentioned nothing about naturalization. Again, he is just making things up. To say the Constituion or any statute said that a “Citizen of the United States” was a naturalized citizen is delusional. Please provide the quote Mario. Of course, he can’t. He knows dozens of statues of the time used such term in a manner that cannot mean naturalized citizen and, of course, the framers would not have said members of Congress needed to be naturalized. DUH. It is hard to imagine why anyone would claim a term meant something when he cannot cite a single authority to support such defintion. I keep wondering. Is it dishonesty or stupidity?
What Wong Kim Ark said has been pointed out to Mario again and again and again. When you actully quote the case to him, he just claims such quotes don’t count or that Justice Gary is just wrong. He has never made any substantive case about dicta versus holding in such case as he either doesn’t understand what those terms mean or simply refuses to engage in such discussion. Of course, every court that addresses the issues understands that Wong Kim Ark is controlling so it really doesn’t matter what one idiot thinks.
ballantine,
I have heard it all from you. You have nothing new to add. The same old tired responses about how everything is silly and how you can just cite authority all day. Take it somewhere else.
ballantine,
The only pompous idiot is you. Why do you not state in one sentence the holding of Wong Kim Ark case. You cannot do it. All you can do it just throw a lot of BS around about the English common law and that is it.
Hey, Mario:
It’s like Stephanie Miller said to Orly “Snaggletooth” Taitz: maybe birthing just isn’t the right career choice for you. You’re clearly no good at it.
(PS: I left a message for you in the Apuzzo thread at The Fogbow).
I can do that with Minor- Women have no right to vote.
So, since women do have the right to vote, that case is currently invalid and moreover has nothing whatsoever to do with presidential eligibility
Mario:
Maybe you should give up birthing. You’re clearly no good at it.
Evidently, you have no other clients besides Purpurpurchner. You must not be any good at regular law, either.
(PS: I left you a message at the Fogbow).
“Take it somewhere else.” – Mario Apuzzo
Wow. Does this losing attorney actually think he’s taken over someone’s blog?
What’s the word for someone like that?
The Putz is living proof that those are not mutually exclusive.
Another nonsubstantive response. I have cited authority all day and you never respond. You simply pretend it doesn’t exist. We are all waiting for you authority that “”Citizen” iwht a big “C” means naturalized citizens. You don’t respond because you can’t. You are simply making things up because that is all you can do.
For Mario, protection racket.
It’s called free speech. Apparently, conservatives do not believe in any sections of the 1st Amendment.
GIGO
It is sad you still don’t seem to understand dicta and holding. The holding of course includes the necessary rationale for the disposition of the case. The disposition of WKA was that persons of his status were citizens, never said 14th Amendment citizen. Of course, this was because the court said the English common law was incorporated into the NBC clause and the 14th Amendment merely restated the same rule. This is all part of the holding in case you want to learn anything. I think you have some studying to do. Meanwhile, you can read these clear quotes:
“[t]he Constitution of the United States, as originally adopted, uses the words ‘citizen of the United States,’ and ‘natural-born citizen of the United States'” and that “[t]he Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words…[i]n this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the constitution….'[t]he interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
“It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.”
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion [p663] that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, “a natural-born citizen.” It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
“The term “citizen,” as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term “subject” in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people, and he who before as a “subject of the king” is now “a citizen of the State.”
“And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King’s obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary. . . . Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives, and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.”
“The term “citizen,” as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term “subject” in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people, and he who before as a “subject of the king” is now “a citizen of the State.”
“The doctrine of the common law is that every man born within its jurisdiction is a subject of the sovereign of the country where he is born, and allegiance is not personal to the sovereign in the extent that has been contended for; it is due to him in his political capacity of sovereign of the territory where the person owing the allegiance as born.”
“it is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
I can go on and on. Please explain how these quotes from the Supreme Court that say over and over that you are wrong don’t count or why they are dicta. Wait, I guess Gray didn’t get the memo of the big “C” and little “c” nonsense. I just can’t understand why every court or scholar that addresses the issue ignores your arguments and says I am right.
Let us know when you get to the part about bipeds in general. You’ve already thrown in the kitchen sink.
Give him a day or so he’ll run away like he always does when he is here
Seems to me that a capital-“C’ Citizen would be superior to a lower-class—er, -case “c” citizen …. perhaps the super-duper Citizens the birthers are always dreaming up. The direct, inbred descendants of Jamestown and Plymouth settlers. Heh.
There sure are a whole lot of capitalized nouns in our Founding Documents. I trust they all mean something special? And the putz and his Birther brethren hold The Key which unlocks this most Mundane of Mysteries?
He’s a DWI lawyer. What other tactic does he have?
Eaux? Can you cite where Lynch was overturned on appeal? I sure can’t seem to find it. Lacking that, perhaps a higher court case that referred to it condescendingly, belittlingly, as in ridicule? Any case that question or undermined the decision? Anything at all? No dissents, dicta, editorials, or letters to the editor, please. I’m looking for one court sayin’ that other court was “whack” …. in proper legal terminology, of course.
Telling someone to leave, on a blog that isn’t even yours? That’s rich. Whats wrong? Can’t stand that no one is buying your shell game? “Oh! The answer isn’t under THAT obscure 18th century law that I am misinterpreting! It’s under this OTHER one from the 19th century!”
misha: He’s a DWI lawyer. What other tactic does he have?
deflection does it i guess – or the 3 Rs: rinse, repeat and regurgitate
Of course, Wong Kim Ark cited Lynch approvingly after re-stating most of what Lynch said. Accordingly, one can cite it as representing the law the Supreme Court approved. Again, that is only for people who can read English. Wait, “Lynch” didn’t get the big “C” little “c” argument either. I guess everyone in the 19th century were idiots.
Yes, essentially the same things you heard from every court and on every appeal – that you’re currently wrong about what exclusively Constitutes a Natural Born Citizen. The meaning of the law is always subject to change, but it has a current meaning settled actively or passively by the lawful processes of our government, principally by the judiciary, but also in this instance by the Congress when they certify the results of the electoral College vote.
Your contrary definitions of the law are extra-legal speculation. They have lost every test you have subjected them to in court. Whatever feelings of insecurity compel you to legally stalk a sitting President have not, by that grandiose objective, allowed you to avoid the sad-sack pedestrian reality of every losing attorney who ENDLESSLY takes pathetic refuge in the increasingly remote possibility that the Nth time they bring the same frivolous case, they will prevail.
Like them, mired in incompetence and repeated failure, your legal triumphs against Obama will never quite escape the bounds of prospectivity.
Man, you are one sorry glutton for punishment.
Are they giving away free law degrees in specially marked packages of spaghetti these days?
No, rigatoni.
After watching Taitz and Apuzzo perform in court I am not sure I can say that Apuzzo is a better attorney than Taitz. Orly stays on message and consistently spouts the same lies. Mario stumbled, bumbled, and forget to bring a copy of the most important case on citizenship to the hearing in NJ. Orly is certainly more entertaining.
misha: No, rigatoni.
i think where mario is concerned, it’s more like baccal than spaghetti/rigatoni –
and taitz? more like gefilte fish – i mean have you ever seen a fish called gefilte?
Taitz’s meltdowns are way funnier to watch too.
Funnier still is when you get under her skin the point that she tracks your IP, calls your home phone number in hopes of intimidating you, then sounds all baffled as to why you can’t stop laughing at her, during said phone call.
And the Jihads she calls for, on anyone who has rubbed her the wrong way? You can’t write that kind of comedy gold. She’s like something out of a cartoon! I love how she claims to stand up for the Constitution, whilst in the same breath will gladly call for incarceration or death to anyone who opposes her.
No, but I’ve seen a fish called Wanda. [bada-bing]
lol you win, misha!!!!
That movie also had a silly Lawyer type person in it!
Ballantine,
Justice Gray did nothing but give us his personal opinion regarding the application of English common law in the United States to define national citizenship after July 4, 1776 and after the adoption of the Constitution. For example he says: “We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States.” And again: “I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary.” He is merely giving his personal opinion in these statements. He does not cite any authorities that support that personal opinion. Where are the sources from the Founding era that support what he is saying? He provides none. Moreover, he totally disregards the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which directly contradicted his statements that the English common law continued to apply to define our national citizenship after July 4, 1776 and after the Constitution was adopted.
Also, I asked you to provide for me the holding of the Wong Kim Ark Court. And what do you give me, but quotes describing the old English common law which is exactly what I told you not to give me. So, as you see, I am right about you. You cannot give me the holding of Wong Kim Ark because you know it does not support your position. Rather, you have to defraud your way through by giving us the Court’s quotes on the old English common law without providing any evidence that that law still had application in the United States to define our national citizenship after July 4, 1776 and after the Constitution was adopted and without giving us the actual holding of the Court.
JPotter,
Maybe you should take your brain out of your pot so you can follow along just briefly.
Article I and II say “Citizen of the United States.” In the James McClure case, U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson ruled that James McClure was a “Citizen of the United States.” He did not say “natural born Citizen.” Now put your brain back in your pot where you like to keep it.
Taitz is a comedy classic. She brings a “Three Stooges” madcap style to the whole thing that is actually entertaining.
Apuzzo is just a blowhard whose only tactic is to simply state that he’s right and everyone else is wrong even as court decisions stating the opposite pile up. He’s a run of the mill scam artist/hack/fool. Orlyis a truly twisted, yet inspired, piece of performance art.
ballantine,
“I guess everyone in the 19th century were idiots.” Let us not forget some in the 21st century.
Now is that not just silly. How nice.
Oh, I can just go on and on all day.
If that were true, than only naturalized citizens can be representatives and senators.
From Article I, Section 2:
“No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.”
From Article I, Section 3:
“No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.”
We’ve noticed. But simply repeating the same tired arguments as court cases pile up against them hardly constitutes an accomplishment.
SluggoJD,
I bet you’ve got a lot of spaghetti in that tripe of yours hanging over your belt.
Excuse my ignorance of your constitutional law, but why should Arizona (or any other of your States for that matter) be considered a “Sovereign” state as that term was understood by Vattel — and is today?
It doesn’t have an army, it doesn’t issue passports, it doesn’t strike its own currency (the adoption of the Euro required considerable constitutional modifications for each country); it doesn’t have its own diplomatic service, etc, etc.
I mean, come to France, get arrested and try to claim you’re from the “Sovereign” state of Arizona and see what happens. You’ll soon be cleared of that misconception.
So while the Vattel translation/quote is correct, I don’t quite understand why Scalia used it in that context?
Reality Check,
I could any school employ you as a professor. You are one boring chap.
Linda,
The Framers said that “Citizens of the United States” born after the adoption of the Constitution were no longer eligible to be President. Who were these “Citizens of the United States?”
Echoes of dual sovereignty …. Civil War flashbacks …. he’s a big states’ rights guy. I see the position he’s advocating as an invitation to chaos. As he eloquently explains, their is a need for uniform naturalization across the states. The same applies to other questions of citizenship. The states are equally sovereign with each other … not with foreign countries. They’re not about to negotiate separate treaties, are they?
That is not what they said. That is the clause that allowed the Founding Fathers to be “grandfathered in”. Otherwise, how were they natural born citizens? They were only born British citizens.
Do you contend that US Senators and Representatives have to be naturalized citizens? The Constitution called for them to be Citizens of the United States, too.
“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”
Soooo … now you choose to omit that Article II mentions “natural born citizen”? So, there’s not a special “Article II natural born citizen” classification? And, as you pointed out, in Article II, it’s “natural born Citizen”; bringing in your other tap routines, that translates to a “natural born naturalized citizen” … which, again according to the readings of the putz, could only be a child of non-citizen parents born on US soil and later naturalized. Such a person is eligible to the Presidency? That’s your theory?
Gee willikers, a plain reading of the putzisms sure does take a person to surprising conclusions.
You know, I’m not having much luck finding this in the US Constitution. Is there some other constitution you’re referring to? Perhaps some other version or translation? I’m pretty much a stickler for the English translation ratified in 1789, along with its associated amendments. Just want to make sure we’re all on the same page here. 😉
if one checks readily available insular passport or passport records, one easily discovers extensive evidence of proof of naturalization of women and children included in family passports, etc… http://www.archives.gov/research/passport/index.html
email me at ilovelibby@gmail.com or drpaulmaas@gmail.com if you’d like to see some samples for example insular passports for Guam, Porto Rico, the Philippines, or Hawaii for families… also see
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&id=FRUS.FRUS1901&entity=FRUS.FRUS1901.p0564&q1=guam&q2=passport
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&id=FRUS.FRUS1900&entity=FRUS.FRUS1900.p0618&q1=hawaii&q2=passport
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&id=FRUS.FRUS1902&entity=FRUS.FRUS1902.p0087&q1=guam&q2=passport
So as we can see, prior to the Cable Act of 1922, there was no motivation for naturalization petitions or records to exist on women and children. But the lack of such records does not prove that such women and children were not considered to be naturalized “citizens.”In fact, they were under the then-existing Acts of Congress.
I don’t understand this. ”
A State is either sovereign with other states (countries), or it it isn’t. What you call “State” is (at least today) more like a Province or a Region (French term) or a Lander (Germany). A great deal of independence and autonomy does not make a “state” sovereign.
And you are a proven liar.
Also, please take this opportunity to deny that your legal battle is being funded by right-wing organization(s) and that you are not doing this pro bono.
Linda,
You avoided answering my question. The Framers grandfathered “Citizens of the United States” to be eligible to be President, provided they had that status at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. Hence, they had to be born by the time the Constitution was adopted and not after. Of course, there were still “Citizens of the United States” born after the adoption of the Constitution. But they were no longer eligible to be President. My question of you is who are these “Citizens of the United States” who are no longer eligible to be President?
JPotter,
Again, try taking your brain out of your pot and answer my question rather than whining about it.
JPotter,
Too bad that your brain capacity does not allow you to keep up with the rest of us.
You didn’t ask a question. See your own previous and only post to me, below. You haven’t asked me any questions in this thread; rather, you have yet to answer mine.
I am trying to reconcile your body of work. If you don’t like the results, that is, you have no other response that to call the synthesis of your own writings “whining”, then you must hold your own writing in very low regard. How depressing!
_________________
ADD: Ah! Another empty insult response! You don’t even bother to assert that you are referring to the same Constitution? Hmmm. Well then, what are you referring to?
Article I clearly rejects the Convention era argument, because the Constitution permits foreign born citizens of the US at the time of the adoption of the Constitution to be President, hence the Congress rejected the exclusivist notion that only domestic born citizens of the US could be President… hence the term of art “natural born citizens” as used in that context is embedded semantically so as to include all American nationals and not merely the citizens of the US… after adoption of the Constitution, all citizens of the US are thus equally deemed to be natural born citizens… that is the proper sense of the construction… the only doubt was whether foreign born citizens were eligible, and the text plainly resolved that doubt in favor of inclusive treatment of such persons as equal Americans… btw the US long thought that taking the oath of our soldiers serves to expatriate persons (see http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&id=FRUS.FRUS187576v01&entity=FRUS.FRUS187576v01.p0318&q1=chinese&q2=oath&q3=allegiance, disproving the Dragenice Court holdings)… compare the holding in Petition for Naturalization No. 8314 Mahmoud Kassas
uniset.ca/islamicland/788FSupp993.html … all American nationals have American nationality even if not citizens of the United States… so too, all natural born citizens is a larger category than those merely citizens of the US though foreign born… the Constitution intends to include those about whom there was doubt, by providing the foreign born new citizens at the time of adoption of the Constitution would also be eligible as natural born citizens…
I answered, but I will try to break it down further. In order to be president, one must be a natural born citizen and meet certain age and residency requirements. No one qualified during the writing of the Constitution. Even a child born the day after the Declaration of Independence was adopted would not be old enough until July 5, 1811. So, while the founders wanted the president to be a natural born citizen, they understood that would not be possible for many years. In order to bridge that gap, they provided that anyone who was a citizen at the adoption Constitution, and met the with the stated age and residency, was eligible to be president.
Now your turn. You didn’t answer my question. Do you contend that US Senators and Representatives have to be naturalized citizens? The Constitution called for them to be Citizens of the United States.
It gets confusing. Federal / State dual sovereignty … read up on US Constitutional law and plenary power in the US. The states are (in my IANAL understanding) more autonomous than the national subdivisions you noted (landers, cantons, etc.) For instance, they do have their own militaries, courts, state police system, and just about every gov’t function at some level has a state vs. federal angle.
13 colonies (and later Texas) were, at one time, “sovereign states” on the world stage. If the colonies knew that by ratifying the Constitution, they were in for life (as settled by the Civil War), we’d still be waiting on ratification. Since then, 37 states have been created on equal footing with these once ‘full’ sovereigns. We also have territories, ‘sovereign’ tribes, and a federal district (which is ironically, ‘less’ sovereign than a state).
As a whole, in terms of division of powers, the US is somewhere between Germany and the EU.
In addition to Mario’s strangulations, here’s another favorite misreading:
The capitalization is archaic, and so is the punctuation ….
So that’s why all the Presidents have been old white guys! And no wonder the birfers are convinced Obama is ineligible.
Notice how Luigi has become much more aggressive with his insults. Yes, I think it is a fine nickname for him, as no one really takes him seriously. And like Luigi, Apuzzo is rightly overshadowed by better, more talented people in his profession.
…..and another irony meter bites the dust (along with every birther case to date).
c’mon putzo, ready to eat your words on the pakistan travel ban yet?
Mario has evidently carried out an enormous amount of research. The problem lies in what he does with that research and how he interprets it. He (apparently) believes that it is enough to convince himself that he is right and that it is up to him to convince all the readers of ths blog of the “correct” interpretation of all his hard work. He somehow forgets that there is no need to convince the doubters in this blog . All he needs to do is convince the judges. So far, he has been singularly and spectacurarily short in getting any judge to agree with him. So until he gets a favourable ruling in court he should be ignored for the silly irrelevense that he is. Come back with an “I was right all along” when the judges agree with you.
This is where the United States of America is, quite simply, different than much of the world. We live in a compromise instead of a confederation of fully independent states (formerly colonies) or a strict national/federal system. Some of this is reflected in our Congress where the House of Representatives which represent the individuals equally and the Senate which represent the states equally. Actually, the place in the debates where Vattel was quoted (among the various Natural Law writers), dealt with state sovereignty and equal representation. In my opinion, this was far more a concern to the convention than whether the eventual chief executive qualifications. The issue of state sovereignty has been our balancing act for over two hundred years and,yes, been part of the cause of some of worst moments. This same balancing act, however, is one of our ways of creating yet another check and balance against the power of the federal government. We’re funny this way.
Still, despite the Birthers excitement and Mario’s attempt to conflate the issue, I see nothing in ruling that uses Vattel for anything beyond the same state sovereign discussion we have had running since 1776 It has absolutely nothing to do with the single paragraph that never said Natural Born Citizen.
I don’t think it’s that black and white. Provinces can exercise some functions of sovereign nations. For example, Quebec screens immigrants to Canada who intend to reside in the province and the federal government only grants entry visas to those approved by the province. Quebec also has a Ministry of International Affaiirs which maintains quasi-diplomatic representation in a number of foreign capitals.
In sports, Puerto Rico has its own Olympic teams, and, as I’m sure you know, Scotland, Wales and England compete as separate teams in football and rugby, though they compete in the Olympics as the UK.
“State’s rights” has a bad rap in the US from having been used to justify slavery and segregation. While this is certainly understandable, it is not the whole story. States can use their powers to do good as well as bad. For example, Vermont is using its sovreignity to put in single payer health care.
What a moron. You cite language that is actually a citation to authority. It is a quote from one of the most famous previous citizenship cases by a supreme Court Justice. Gray, of course, spends 21 pages citing every legal giant like Kent, Story, Marshall and every early citizenship case, two attorney generals and a secretary of state. Indeed, his opinion is the opinion of the Court and to pretend that 21 pages of authority is not sufficient is another desperate argument. Justice Waite, of course, did not cite a single authority and Justice Fuller cited no early authority that actually supported him.
I gave you the holding. If you don’t understand that the rationale is part of the holding and not dicta I can’t help you at this point. If you can’t understand that he said the 14th Amendment was simply declaratory of the English common law rule incorporated into the original constitution. I’m sorry that is over your head.
And the quotes I cited were saying the English common law had application in the United States. They made the point over and over and over. Did you not read them. Do you not understand when it says our common law was the same as in England over and over. I know, it doesn’t count because they didn’t cite enough authority. You arguments become more and more pathetic by the blog post.
Obviously natural born and naturalized citizens born before 1787. Duh. No one has ever said anyone born in a state in 1786 or any earlier was naturalized as no statute ever naturalized such people. Do you really think just making stuff up will convince anyone?
If Vattel actually applied to states of the United States, then a state could set up border controls and exclude say Green Card holders, and I guess Georgia could have excluded northern agitators back in the day.
Anyhow, I’m boycotting Arizona. They can get their tourist dollars from someone else. I don’t feel welcome or safe there.
And he did not say “naturalized citizen.” Now all you have to do is show us where Johnson or anyone else in history said “Citizen of the United State” meant naturalized citizen. Obviously you can’t but will still keep insisting your own made up definition is right. Embarrassing. Obviously, both natural born and naturalized citizens are eligible for Congress, But, of course, those tricky framers actually said only naturalized citizens are eligible just to confuse us. Really can’t make this stuff up.
From 1790 Naturalization Act:
“And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens…”
Yes, clearly only naturalized citizens have such right. Oh, I forgot, it’s not capitalized. Of course, completely changes the meaning because Mario says so.
Justice Waite:
“It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.”
Waite just said such persons were natural born citizens as well and he is talking about being a US citizen. Obviously a natural born citizen is a citizen. Wait, it’s not capitalized. So Waite is saying the are themselves US citizens, but not Citizen of the United States. LOL.
The Framers said no such thing. You might have said “some Citizens of the United States” (i.e. naturalized citizens) were no longer eligible, but as you phrased it, it is false.
Are you the best legal mind the birthers have?
Ooo, oooo, me sir, please sir,
Now Mario, since you’re such a Krap Konsitutional Kalamity who likes to quote dissent in supporting your arrant nonsense.
I presume you of course read the dissent in WKA, you remember it, the part where the Chief Justice lays out EXACTLY what the consequences would be for WKA..?
You remember, but I’ll just remind you, per that chap Fuller
Considering the circumstances surrounding the framing of the Constitution, I submit that it is unreasonable to conclude that “natural-born citizen” applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances, and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the Presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not.
So, in the very decision that you and your delusional ilk, attempt to bend to make up magical 3rd, 4th and 5th categories of citizen, the ENTIRE SC were explicitly aware that by this case they ensured that ANYONE (outside of the diplomat/foreign invader classes) born in the US could run for President as an NBC.
Thoughts…?
It even applies to places that elect a dog as mayor, like Rabbit Hash, Kentucky.
Put that in your pipe Mario, and smoke it.
Linda,
I asked you who were these Article II “Citizens of the United States,” who were to be born after the adoption of the Constitution and who the Framers prohibited from being President?
You answered: “No one qualified during the writing of the Constitution. Even a child born the day after the Declaration of Independence was adopted would not be old enough until July 5, 1811. So, while the founders wanted the president to be a natural born citizen, they understood that would not be possible for many years. In order to bridge that gap, they provided that anyone who was a citizen at the adoption Constitution, and met the with the stated age and residency, was eligible to be president.”
I see that you are evading answering my clear question. You know darn well that age has nothing to do with distinguishing a “natural born Citizen” from a “Citizen of the United States.” In almost 4 years in this debate, this is the first time that someone has made such a ridiculous distinction between the two phrases. If you want me to answer your question, answer my question first or simply tell me that you refuse to answer it, or you do not have an answer. I will then answer your question.
I know you didn’t mean that this is what Quebec does, but just to be clear, it isn’t. Any Canadian citizen or resident is free to move to Quebec. The provincial role in immigration has to do with preservation of the French language and culture and their desire to attract immigrants who speak French. I wouldn’t see anything wrong with immigrants to the US who plan to live in Puerto Rico being made aware that Spanish is the principal language there. Nor even with states trying to attract immigrants with necessary skills (I believe North Dakota is looking for oil drillers all over the world).
The sad thing is that Arizona has several world-class scenic attractions, not just the Grand Canyon. I would have no trouble never going to Alabama, but Arizona has some superb sights.
We know what Shakespear meant with “nunnery”. But we do not know what Mario means with “grammar school” and “vision center”. Probably as distant from reality as his idea of NBC.
Mario, Orly and the rest of their coterie are trying to incite a lone wolf.
Their protests to the contrary, are simply disingenuous.
Arizona also has produced some superb crackpots.
He means I can’t see straight. Mario’s father was wrong – Mario did amount to a hill of beans.
Said sights will outlast foolish government. Well, unless foolish gov’t dedicates itself to destroying nature. Not entirely unimaginable, unfortunately.
“I’ll take ‘crank legal theories’ for $200, Alex.”
Ballantine,
So these are your authorities that support your “natural born Citizen” Justice Gray English common law jus soli theory: “Kent, Story, Marshall and every early citizenship case, two attorney generals and a secretary of state?” Do you know how many authorities there are which do not agree with them? Also, you citing to Marshall and Story is ridiculous. You have never provided one statement from Marshall that support your silly theory. Also, Story in Shanks adopted Vattel’s position that children follow the condition of their parents. Kent wrote in 1826 and provides no sources to support his persons opinions.
Justice Gray’s statement, “I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States,” proves nothing. Provide for me one source that you say Justice Gray provided which links to the Founders and which shows that we continued to apply the English common law to define our national citizenship after July 4, 1776 and the adoption of the Constitution. You will not be able to do so because neither you nor Justice Gray have any.
You said: “Justice Waite, of course, did not cite a single authority and Justice Fuller cited no early authority that actually supported him.” Even if what you wrote were true, it does not matter because the source exist. You cannot say the same about Justice Gray.
I see that you refuse to state with simple clarity what the Wong holding is and rather prefer to give us a lot of jumbled double talk about the English common law. This only shows how much of a little weasel of a fraud you are.
You know, we have discussed the technical details of whether or not Barack Obama would still be a natural born citizen even if he had been born in Kenya. But this topic made me remember something: Barack Obama was never naturalized as a citizen. Oops!
Even in the fantasy scenario of a Kenyan birth, Obama was born a citizen of the United States. Speculation about foreign birth is at least edifying because it relates to the real world situations of Americans being born abroad. But sniffing vapor fumes (forget penumbras) about three levels of citizenship is something else.
Ballantine,
You are an amateur.
You think you impress somebody on here with your self-claimed intelligence. Well, let me tell you that you are delusional in your thinking.
I asked who are the “Citizens of the United States” who in the future were no longer eligible to be President. I did not mention anything about naturalized. You did. What’s the matter ballantine, can’t answer the question?
Dr. Conspiracy,
Article II provides that all those born after the adoption of the Constitution have to be “natural born Citizens” in order to be eligible to be President. Countless legal authorities and court decisions confirm this. We have always accepted that naturalized “citizens” born after the adoption of the Constitution are not eligible to be President. And you say that “there were no citizens eligible before the Constitution who were ‘no longer eligible’ afterwards.”
I hope you are feeling ok, Doc.
Still floggin’ false dichotomy? A gentleman and a scholar …. would do no such a thing.
Since you insist on wallowing in them, I have another foolish word game you can play! Ready? Don’t worry, it’s inspired by your own dichotomatic obsession, so it should be easy for you to win!
The phrase is:
You insist on reading it as:
Implying that both of these are true:
Whoa! A “Citizen of the United States” or “a natural born Citizen” … the Constitution specifies a “Citizen of the United States“, but not “of [what]” said “natural born Citizens” must be citizens of, only that they be “natural born”.
So, there are an awful lot of things one can be a natural born citizen (excuse me, Citizen)of in the world. Most of them are not the United States. Can you list them all, Mario?
[ Once again, with a short indulgence in putzism, I have succeeded in upending the commonly understood intent of the “natural born” Citizen clause. 😉 ]
Age is a requirement for the Presidency. In addition to being a natural born citizen, they have to be at least 35 years old and have been been a resident of the US for at least 14 years. The US wasn’t its own country until July 4, 1776. So who could be a natural born citizen, born in the US (and at least 35 years old and have lived in the US for 14 years) at the time the Constitution was ratified? That is why they made the exception for a citizen of the US at time of the adoption of the Constitution. Those citizens were the people who lived in the US during that time, born British citizens but chose to remain in the US rather than go to England, just like the founders.
If that is not the case, then why was an exception necessary?
You said that where the Constitution says “Citizen of the United States”, with a capital “C”, it means a naturalized citizen. The Constitution says that senators and representatives must be “Citizens of the United States”, capital “C”. Do you believe the Constitution requires all senators and representatives to be naturalized citizens?
Paul Pieniezny:
donna: Pie
mario criticized my grammar, didn’t answer my dual citizenship question and then wrote this to Reality Check:
“I could any school employ you as a professor. You are one boring chap.”
i admit i have not had enough coffee yet, but what does that mean?
re scalia’s rant: i’m from a blue state, which pays more into the government than it receives ($0.79 on the dollar) – i would like az to return the $0.19 more they receive from the government – i’m sick of red state “socialism”
in 2010, scalia replied to a letter sent to him regarding secession – he said states had no right to secede:
I am afraid I cannot be of much help with your problem, principally because I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit.
http://www.newyorkpersonalinjuryattorneyblog.com/uploaded_images/Scalia-Turkewitz-Letter-763174.jpg
i saw some opining about scalia’s rant and the impetus – roberts assigned the immigration opinion to kennedy and concurred – it is opined that roberts will write the health care opinion and scalia is pissed because roberts will opt to uphold the law –
we shall see
Dr. Conspiracy,
Despite the public persona that you try to paint of yourself, I have never doubted that you are as much of a little fraudulent weasel as ballantine. Article II does not say “some Citizens of the United States” where prohibited in the future from being eligible to be President. It says “Citizens of the United States” were so prohibited. So just answer my question, who were these “Citizens of the United States” who were so prohibited, not who were these “some Citizens of the United States?”
I think you are out of line.
Mario,
It says naturalized Citizens are prohibited. That’s why Arnold Schwarzenegger is ineligible and Congress was trying to amend the constitution to make him eligible.
But since natural born citizens are citizens, that would mean they were/are prohibited, too.
You keep playing one of the dumbest birther word games, namely to claim that “citizen” and “natural born citizen” are mutually exclusive. This wouldn’t give you any more than an F in 3rd class, let alone in any law school that deserves its name.
Bovril,
I have one very simple response to your bovril. Too bad for you that the Wong majority did not say what Chief Justice Fuller ascribed to it while he protested the majority’s treatment of children born abroad to United States citizen parents as second rate to children born in the United States to aliens.
Somebody is getting increasingly desperate because his “fine legal analysis” isn’t going anywhere in the real world courts.
Reminds me of someone I knew in university. The guy told me he had spent some 10 years writing a book that would revolutionize physics, basically would be the “theory of everything” that physicists have been looking for since forever.
I can only imagine his reaction to the reception of his book in the scientific community. It’s always hard when you come out of the back room and have to face the fact that you wasted years of your life with absolute nonsense.
Of course the expected reaction is to call everyone else part of a conspiracy and to double up on the language when insisting “but I am right dammit” doesn’t get you anywhere…
Now you are making no sense at all. Gray did cite MArshall and Story and there statement support Gray. There is no requirement that he cite founders who, other than MAdison ctiing jus soli, didn’t actually speak on the matter. The majority of hte Supreme court through Gray said that the definition of natural born citizen was incorporated inot the NBC clause and has 21 pages of citations to cupport that. It does not matter if you think such support is sufficient or that you think there are authorities that disagree. The Supreme Court’s opinion counts and yours does not. To say the multitude of sources he cites, the leading legal authorities of the early republic don’t count because they didn’t prove their claims is a new low in argument as citing such authority is how courts prove their claims. You now seem caught between denying what WKA says and pretending it doesn’t count because you says so.
And, of course, you have no evidence from the framers that actually disagrees with Gray and the multitude of scholars and cases he cites at least if you read such sources honestly.
It does not say that. So your question is meaningless.
It says no such thing. It says Citizens of the US at the time of adoption were included. Doesn’t say such were naturalized citizens as you are simply making that up and still cannot cite a single source in history to support. Just keep doubling down on stupidity. Explain how the term citizen of the United STates in all the early statutes meant only naturalized citizens. Duh.
JPotter,
You have not proven anything. The Framers said “natural born Citizen” and they said “Citizen of the United States.” It is that simple.
Why do you not tell us who the future “Citizens of the United States” were supposed to be? Or will you evade the question like all the rest of your buddies (like Linda, Dr. Conspiracy, ballantine & Co.) have on here?
Mario may be one of those unfortunates who are so dumb they think everybody else is dumber than they are. Either that or he’s so sleazy he is disingenuously spouting legalistic nonsense he knows to be baseless just to smear the President. So logically he is either stupid or immoral. I don’t care which, but he’s definitely one or the other.
If I were documenting the rise and fall of a particular phenomena (like, say, birtherism), I would consider myself fortunate to get so much on the record directly from one of its most vocal proponents. What excellent primary source material! What would any researcher give for a chance to discourse with the Founders, or with Christ, or Lincoln, or any number of historical figures?
Of course, birtherism falls far short of being a Great Event in World History, but as it goes, Mario is definitely on the short list of key figures. So, as birtherism goes, this is pretty vital stuff. being an idea/argument, the intellectual content of birtherism, particularly as expressed by its founders and most vocal proponents, is its lifeblood, and will be its legacy.
So, what kind of legacy is it leaving, here and elsewhere? In the words of Mario:
Whew! Heady stuff. Truly, intellectual marvels for tha ges. Posterity will be impressed.
It is simpler. The Framers said “the.” Many times they used that word in the Constitution. Please explain why they used the definite article. If you are going to selectively (mis)quote the Constitution, you might as well do it right!
Linda,
You told me who the original “Citizens of the United States” were. I asked you who the future ones were. You seem to be having a lot of trouble answering my question, just like Dr. Conspiracy, ballantine, and the rest of you on here. Do you want to try again?
About your comment about the capital “C” in “Citizen of the United States,” thank God that I do not have to tell you to get thee to a vision center. You can read what the framers wrote in Article I and II. Did you also read U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson’s quote contained in Secretary of State James Monroe’s letter of November 27, 1811 in which the Justice said that James McClure was a “Citizen of the United States?” Sure is strange that Justice Johnson should capitalize his “C” when he wrote “Citizen” since he was not writing the Constituiton which we know contains all capitals for nouns and even Congress when writing the word “citizen” in its statutes never capitalized it (not even in the Naturalization Act of 1790).
Mario-Let me simplify things so that even you can understand them. There are NO restrictions on who can be President. None. Zip. Nada. The 12th Amendment is directly pertinent to the original Article II and supercedes the original language. Here is what it says- “The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President”. It even capitalizes “Number” just for you.
I know you hate democracy, but I will allow Winston Churchill to speak in its defense-“Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried”. The great thing about allowing living people rather than dead guys to choose the leaders is that if living people get it wrong they are able to change their minds, something which dead guys can’t do.
The voters decide. Not you, Mario. Not the Framers. Not dead judges.
Everybody eligible for a US passport.
Jim,
You said: “It says naturalized Citizens are prohibited.” So you are saying that when the Founders said that future “Citizens of the United States” were no longer eligible to be President after the adoption of the Constitution they said that future “naturalized Citizens are prohibited” from that position? Is that your position?
Who cares? The Constitution says nothing of such future citizens or Citizens. It says: “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President…”
That means that in our current time only a “natural born Citizen” is eligible. No one else is eligible. So, your question is meaningless.
I sure have; I have proven that I can laugh me arse off at your expense!
So you can’t answer the “‘.. natural born Citizens’ of what?” question? Not even going to try? I suppose you could dodge, and go with reading it as “… natural born Citizen … at the time of the adoption …”, but then we’re back to looking for 223-yr old people to run for President.
Why do you keep inserting “future” into the Constitution? You wouldn’t put words in the Framers’ mouths, would ya? The phrase plainly states that, in addition to “natural born Citizens” (of what?), persons who were “Citizens of the United States” at the time of the adoption are eligible to the Presidency.
As for who introduced the word “naturalized”, you did. You explained to the world that, in the US Constitution, “Citizen” with a capital ‘C’ translates to “naturalized citizen.” We’re just taking you at your word. This has lead to the question of why must Senators and Representatives be naturalized citizens, and to confirm what the Framers meant by “natural born naturalized citizen”. It seems odd that our elected representatives must not be natural born, but if you say so. Is this the Framer’s version of “a prophet in his own land…”?
[ See what happens when you’re too silly to acknowledge that “natural born Citizens” and “Citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption” are subsets of “Citizens of the United States”? Good times, Mario, good times! 😀 ]
He is seriously going to keep insisting that a big “C” changes the meaning of the term. Seriously. There is really nothinbg one cqan say. And he is going to keep saying that the Constituion says that Citizens of the US in the future are not eligible when it says no such thing. Allowing “Citizen” i.e., both natural born and naturalized citizens, in 1787 to be eligible and only natural born later does not mean that all “Citizens” were excluded in the future. Plain English again. As is typical Mario re-writes the language to try to support his absurd argument an arugment he cannot a single person to support, as usual.
Actually, there were 3 types of citizens in 1787. Natural born, naturalized and those who adhere to the US cause who no one ever called naturalized.
Well, I am trying, but the question is little like “have you stopped beating your wife”. It doesn’t specifically say who cannot be president. It says who can be, a natural born citizen, at least 35, who has lived in the US for at least 14 years. Any citizen, natural born or not, who fails to meet those requirements would not be eligible.
If you are trying to say that those citizens were naturalized, I am not buying it. It was a difficult situation, when a Country changes its character. Every citizen was a British citizen, not a US citizen. Those who wanted to go to England would be considered natural born British citizens, those who remained here were considered US citizens. There was no naturalization test, no oath. Do you know of a statute or act which purports to do that?
I think this is the 4th time I have (attempted) to answer you. You have yet to answer me. You claim that when the Constitution says “Citizen of the United States” that it means naturalized citizen, yet that is how it refers to senators and representatives. De you contend that the Constitution requires senators and representatives to be naturalized citizens?
mario,
you can rattle on to you’re blue in the face about what the framers meant by using a capital or lower case `c’. it really has no bearing on reality, and is more akin to people looking at the trade mark for proctor and gable and seeing `666′ in it’s beard and claiming it means they’re in league with the antichrist.
you have not won one birther case, and yet you have the audacity to come here and call people fools for trying to point out the failures in your reasoning, something the courts have also shown with their rejection of your cases. an unbroken record of failure.
if someone hit’s their thumb with a hammer, they generally don’t do it again believing it won’t hurt next time. you seem to be hammering away at yours and looking supprised at the increased swelling (the downward spiral of your reputation) and increased pain level.
doesn’t that tell you at least something?
BWAHAHAHAHA You’re funny Mario! Can’t even read the Constitution and you’re going to court to try and argue the Constitution!!! No wonder the Judge called your argument “bullcrap”, although he said it much nicer.
Ah! That reminds me…..still waiting on the comprehensive key to the Secret Meanings of all the Capitalized Words in the Founding Documents.
The Magic M,
I hope you did not go to law school, which, among various intellectual demands, requires reading comprehension, and pass.
There are “natural born Citizens.” And there are “Citizens of the United States.” These are words of art. Today, under Article II, only the former are eligible to be President. If one is a “citizen,” one is either one or the other. Hence, they are both “citizens.” The constitutionally critical distinction for presidential eligibility is therefore not between a “natural born Citizen” and a “citizen,” but rather between a “natural born Citizen” and “Citizen of the United States,” for a “citizen” can be either a “natural born Citizen” or a “citizen of the United States.” A “citizen” is not a “natural born Citizen” unless he or she satisfies the definition of the clause. If he or she does not satisfy that definition, then he or she is a “citizen of the United States.”
Minor v. Happersett confirmed the definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen” and held that it was a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark provided the definition of a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth and held that it includes a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents, even if those parents are not legally able to become U.S. citizens, but provided that they are not foreign diplomats or military invaders.
The point is the Constitution avoids the whole problem by merely saying “citizens.” They note the existence of natural born citizens saying they are eligible, and then say (any other) citizens *at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution* are also eligible.
Of course, I will note that there is nothing to stop time travelers from becoming president. Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. George Washington: Time Traveler? Or is it: Time Traveller?
Which category of time travelers, or travellers, are prohibited?
Which is to say you are elaborate distinction about “Citizens” is meaningless. All that matters is whether or not one is a natural born citizen. Your definition of natural born citizen is “without merit,” as has been pointed out. Your discussion of “Citizen” is just irrelevant.
It is hard to imagine anyone who went to law school would claim “Citizen of the United States” is a term of art that is different than “citizen of the United States” when, of course, no in in history has said so. Did they teach you to just make stuff up? Reading “Citizen” to mean both natural born and naturalized makes perfect sense and no one has ever said otherwise. Are you not getting tired of having your argument laughed at?
Oh, yes, i was just thinking the archaic spellings must also have significant secret meanings! For instance, who are the “Brittish”? Who knows what the Declarations was really declaring! What did the Constitution really constitute?
Stay tuned as Mario putzzles it all out for us!
[ I am picturing Mario starring in his own linguistic . semantic / etymological version of National Treasure … Natural Born Treasure Punter ]
Most awesome comeback ever. Comment of the week!
Mario’s increasing reliance on personal insults is very telling.
Like all birther lawyers, his “knowledge” of the law is so transparently bad, that we uneducated lay-folk can see huge gaping holes in it. So what does he do? Resort to the sort of internet message board name calling you see on XBLA. I guess if its good enough for kids who have yet to hit puberty, its good enough for a middle aged attorney! Next thing you know, he’ll be calling us all “noobs” and insulting our mothers’ sexuality.
“Eligible” and “be” are two different words, are they not? Article II governs “eligible” but the 12th Amendment governs “be”. One can be eligible for the office of President under Article II, but not be President under the 12th Amendment (that would describe the vast majority of Americans). Similarly, one can be President under the 12th Amendment without being eligible under Article II. So far, no one has done that, but it could happen some day. Either way, it’s no problem, as the Constitutiion is prepared for any eventuality.
On my way to work. There is an ambassador from Jesus Christ on my train. Not sure whether or not he capitalizes the “A.” Nor am
I sure if his children are eligible to be president.
“The Magic M,
I hope you did not go to law school, which, among various intellectual demands, requires reading comprehension, and pass”
Mario… You apparently attended law school, somehow passed the bar (but then apparently so did Orly Taitz) and were admitted to practice.
It doesn’t seem those attributes stuck with you. And you completely ignore many of he requirements of practicing law, not the least of which is candor with the court, one of which you were admonished in NJ recently. Which makes two such recent admonishments in recent history.
Perhaps that wasn’t so important in DUI law and you just forgot.
Ballantine,
You said: “It says no such thing. It says Citizens of the US at the time of adoption were included. Doesn’t say such were naturalized citizens as you are simply making that up and still cannot cite a single source in history to support. Just keep doubling down on stupidity.”
I did not say they were naturalized. You said that. All I said is that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 uses the clause “Citizen of the United States” and excludes them in the future from being President. Also, your little included and excluded game does not help you, for Article II says “No Person except a natural born Citizen . . . shall be eligible to the Office of President.” That my friend EXCLUDES all those who are not “natural born Citizens.” That, my friend, EXCLUDES those who are “Citizens of the United States,” but not “natural born Citizens.”
You said: “Explain how the term citizen of the United States in all the early statutes meant only naturalized citizens.”
Congress has always meant exactly what it has always said, “citizen of the United States.” It did not say that only “citizens of the United States” could enjoy those benefits. Rather, it said that “citizens of the United States” could. Your argument that if we read a “citizen of the United States” for exactly what it is would prevent a “natural born Citizen” from enjoying those same statutory benefits is absurd. Sure, a “natural born Citizen” can be President, but he or she cannot enjoy the rights of a “Citizen of the United States.” This argument is as absurd as your Article I “Citizen of the United States” argument which I will now address.
Regarding your argument about Article I allowing a “Citizen of the United States” to be a member of Congress which you contend proves that I am wrong in saying that future “Citizens of the United States” are not eligible to be President because “natural born Citizens” would be precluded from being eligible for Congress, that “Citizen of the United States” status, like the status of being 25 or 30 years old, is only a minimum to be satisfied. It would be pretty ridiculous to argue that the Framers required someone to be only 25 or 30 years old to be eligible for the House and Senate, respectively. Like the clause does not say that 50-year-olds are also eligible, it does not say that “natural born Citizens” are also eligible. It does not say it because there was no need to say it. It was self evident from the clause itself. So your point proves nothing.
JPotter,
I see that you brain is back in your pot. Why not quote to what I was answering.
Maybe you can even add something about spaghetti and macaroni.
By the way, I am here on this filthy blog just to show all of you how much I enjoy beating you.
Paper,
You said: “That means that in our current time only a ‘natural born Citizen’ is eligible. No one else is eligible. So, your question is meaningless.”
But the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress say “citizens of the United States.” So who are they?
It does NOT!!! No one is excluded, you liar.
Gibberish. YOu can spin all you want but it doesn’t say “Citizens of the United States” are excluded. You are once again re-writing the language to give yourself an argument. It says all Citizens are eligible if citizens in 1787 and only natural born citizens afterwards. Such means that “Citizens” who are not natural born are then not eligible. Such reading makes perfect sense no matter how many atimes you say otherwise.
And the Congressional elgibility provisions, you are again re-writing the provision. One who is a naturalized citizen for 30 years has “been seven Years a Citizen of the United States.” There is no need to infer an “at least” into the language. And even if one did, it doesn’t say one must be at least a naturalized citizen. Such language makes no sense anyway since such provisions were written long before the NBC clause and hence there was no difference between natural born and naturalized at such time. The absurd claim that the framers would state one needed to be naturalized to be in Congress and would leave it for us to infer such also included natural born would be drafting malpractice.
Again, you can spin your own silly interpreations all you want. You still can’t find a single authority in history that agrees with you. Something cannot be a term of art if no one but you understands its meaning. Come on, cite one person or admit this is your own made up definition that no one has ever agreed with.
The 12th Amendment says, ““The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President”. That is plain English with no wiggle room. You lose, buddy.
Ballantine,
I did not say “that a big “C” changes the meaning of the term.” Article II says “Citizen of the United States.” That’s it. I did not write it, the Framers did. Just like they wrote “natural born Citizen.” Both “citizens” have a capital “C.” The Constitution is full of capitals. They mean nothing other than to show that nouns are capitalized. Why you do not understand that I do not know.
y’know, i just had a memory flashback of one of my friends and a set of nunchucks. he took them out and started ineptly spinning them round and hit himself in the back of the head with them, knocking himself to the ground.
i always thought that was a once in a lifetime chance seeing something like that, but here you are doing exactly the same thing as he did but instead of ineptitutde with a martial arts weapon, you are doing it with your own distorted opinion of law, history, and the constutution.
and that is exactly how much you are `beating’ the contributors here.
Jim,
Too bad. You cannot escape by your little twist and run.
ballantine,
Your responses are getting worse by the minute. You are now in the hopeless category. You are beat, my friend.
Mario,
Too bad. You cannot escape the courts telling you that you’re full of it.
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.: I am here on this filthy blog just to show all of you how much I enjoy beating you.
Oh, cool! When will the preliminary fooling around conclude and the beating commence? I wouldn’t want to miss it. Is there a tight schedule, or is it catch-as-catch can?
I’ve never seen Mario ‘beat’ anyone before. This will be a first! 😀
Ummm …. Englisch, bitte?
C/citizens …. of …. the … United …. States.
_____________________
What i was getting at in my comment about the intellectual legacy of birtherism (before the editor so rudely cut me off! 🙂 ), was whether a key figure in the development of the delusion being documented should be given an extra measure of grace. Basically, allowed to dig in as deep as he/she wants too, be as offensive as he/she wants to. Tolerated much farther, much longer than a common victim of said delusion would be.
Unfortunately for common decency, I think the answer is yes. The rants and fits of the common birther troll are easily cast aside, and will be of no use to future study of birtherism (should there be any ….). But the name of Apuzzo will be associated with birtherism as long as birtherism is being chuckled at, wherever and whenever that may be.
Ignore the troll.
Mario- No court has ever denied anyone the ability to run for President or to serve as President on the grounds of not being a natural born citizen. There is not a single case. You are simply a liar making up law that doesn’t exist.
Sure Mario…keep telling yourself that. Maybe that will take some of the sting away form the knowledge that you haven’t even come remotely close to winning in court with these genuinely silly claims. You can’t even hide behind the claim that the courts don’t address the question, and use dismissal for lack of standing as a shield to protect your genuinely meritless your arguments. The courts have spoken directly on every point you raise, and they’ve laughed you out of the court. The reality is, that nothing anyone writes here in response to your meaningless ranting, compares to what the folks in the black robes have said, afterall, their opinions are the ones that really matter. No matter how hard you try to pass off arrogance as intelligence, there’s no hiding from the fact that the court have declared your arguments frivolous. So again, keep puffing your chest out. Keep claiming you’re right, and we’re all far too unintelligent to grasp your brilliance. But when it comes down to it, everytime you’ve come in here bragging about how right you are, and how solid your arguments are, we just chuckled, said you were wrong, and lo and behold, the court have agreed with us every single time. Funny how that works, isn’t it?
Mario
Both Gray in the majority opinion and Fuller in the dissent in Wong Kim Ark knew the majority ruling made WKA a natural born citizen. So did contemporary writers who read about the case. New York Attorney William Dameron Guthrie said this only weeks after the Wong Kim Ark decision in his lectures on the Fourteenth Amendment: http://books.google.com/books?id=4sUlAAAAMAAJ&vq=wong%20kim%20ark&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q=wong%20kim%20ark&f=false (Page 57)
““The phrase ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof’ in this clause has occasioned considerable difficulty. If the parents of a child born in the United States were citizens the meaning was clear. But what was to be the status of a child born in the United States of Indians or of Chinese or other alien parentage? In the leading case of Elk v Wilkins it was decided that an Indian born a member of one of our Indian tribes still existing and recognized as such even tho he had voluntarily separated himself from his people and taken up his residence among the white citizens but who did not appear to have been naturalized or taxed was not born in the United States subject to the jurisdiction thereof and was not a citizen. He was born subject to the jurisdiction of his tribe. This decision left in uncertainty the legal status of all others born in the United States of alien parentage. Was their citizenship to be determined by the common-law of locality of birth or was the rule of the civil law as to the allegiance of the parents to control? This question was not settled until a few weeks ago thirty years after the amendment adopted thus showing how slowly constitutional law develops the life of a nation. The common law rule has been finally affirmed by the Supreme Court in the recent case of the States v Wong Kim Ark. The Supreme Court held that a child born in this country of Chinese parents domiciled here is a citizen of the United States by virtue of the locality of his birth. The whole subject is discussed at length in the opinions of this case. The effect of this decision is to make citizens of the United States by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment all persons born in United States of alien parents permanently domiciled and here, except the children of the diplomatic representatives of foreign powers; and therefore, a male child born here of alien Chines subjects is now eligible to the office of President, altho his parents could not be naturalized under our laws.”
So the contemporary writers “got it”. It seems that you are incapable of accepting the truth.
Are you really so vain and childish?
When have you actually beaten anyone with these arguments in a court of law, where victors and losers are actually determined?
Feel free to go back to your schoolyard taunts now.
So Marion,
When the Chief Justice states explicitly and plainly enough even for a buffon like yourself that by this ruling WKA would be able to run for President, it doens’t ACTUALLY nean what he said?
I mean you quiote with glowing admiastion and outright lies on pretty much every other dissenting opinion when you feel it can be used to supoport your idiotic theses.
So, to return to the original point, EXACTLY how many courts, cases, real Constitutional lawyers and experts and judicial majorities have supported yiur opinion in the last 100 years?
Oh and just how did it feel when a junior associate beat your ass black and blue..?
There must be an example in the wayback machine of some obscure internet forum somewhere with The Putz declaring his legal genius and glorious victory after getting his DUI client life without parole. 🙂
Life without parole for DUI?!?!? What did his client do, take out a school bus full of kids?
It is obvious that you are not here to own up to your lie about the supposed ban on travel to Pakistan.
You have not won a single birther case and you know full well that you will never win a birther case. But winning has never been the true objective, has it? Someone is paying you to keep alive the lie that President Obama is illegitimate and un-American. Consequently, any theory, no matter how far-fetched, is grist for your rumor mill and requires no fact checking. Consequently, you are spreading the bogus story than an anonymous letter to a newspaper in 1811 was written by James Madison, never mind the fact that 15 minutes of research would have demonstrated that Madison never used the pseudonym “Publius” after 1788. Consequently, you repeatedly spread the bogus story that Obama could not have traveled to Pakistan on a U.S. passport in 1981, and you continued to spread that story long after you were presented with iron-clad proof that no such ban ever existed.
You are, in fact, an embarrassment to your profession. You are beneath contempt. I would not hire you to handle a traffic ticket.
…the point of the hypothetical being that with those legal skills it could have been somebody sleeping on the back seat of their car in their own driveway with 0.01% BAL.
I gotta get this sarcasm meter fixed…Orly’s broken it again. 😀
JPotter,
You said: “Most awesome comeback ever. Comment of the week!”
How amazing how such trivialities capture your fancy.
Says a lot about you.
So what point are you trying to make? It includes the term and it obviously means natural born or naturalized citizen whether or not the “C” is capitalized. And It doesn’t say “Citizens of the United States” cannot be President. It says all CItizens are eligible in 1787 and only natural born later. Simple English. We still see you cannot cite a single authority that says “Citizen” with a capital “C” doesn’t include natural born citizens or means naturalized citizen. I guess you can just keep saying you are right over and over like you always do. I just can’t understand why the courts ignore your arguments.
Ah yes, the time tested “Losing is winning” tactic that so many of you birthers employ.
“I’m bleeding, making me the victor.”, Wimp Lo
Wow. Close to 300 posts here.
One question I have is what would happen if Mario actually won the fantasy he’s seeking.
I know… magical thinking and hopeless (good!), but it would seem he’d be killing the legal status of almost all Presidents, both GOP and Dem, under the same belief none were ever citizens.
Regardless, I don’t know why he just doesn’t pretend Obama is a white right winger.
He seems to be able to fool himself that he’s winning.
Might as well go the full distance and just convince himself he’s won and all is well.
Did I mention magical thinking? 😉
Reality Check,
William Dameron Guthrie correctly stated the holding of the Wong Kim Ark Court as: “The Supreme Court held that a child born in this country of Chinese parents domiciled here is a citizen of the United States by virtue of the locality of his birth. The whole subject is discussed at length in the opinions of this case. The effect of this decision is to make citizens of the United States by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment all persons born in United States of alien parents permanently domiciled and here, except the children of the diplomatic representatives of foreign powers.”
Where Mr. Guthrie errs is in saying what that holding means. That holding does not mean that Wong was eligible to be President, for his citizenship was established by ‘virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment” and no more. The very old rule of constitutional construction provides that every word and clause in the Constitution must be given effect. The Fourteenth Amendment speaks only of a “citizen of the United States.” It makes no mention of an Article II “natural born Citizen.” The Fourteenth Amendment did not repeal or amend Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. You still have to show that Wong satisfied the original definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen” as confirmed by both Minor and Wong Kim Ark itself.
Additionally, so Mr. Guthrie read Justice Fuller’s dissent or maybe yet he was pushing for somebody to run for President. Maybe you are not familiar with the slippery slope argument. Many times dissents (and opposing counsels) will argue that the majority decision is ruling in a way which will lead to great calamity. The majority will usually just ignore what the dissent is complaining about or simply explain how it is not true. In the case of Wong Kim Ark, the majority simply ignored Chief Justice Fuller’s one sentence presidential eligibility dicta. Hence, just because the dissent says something about the majority opinion does not make it correct, even in the words of many majority opinions themselves. The majority did not construed Article II and its “natural born Citizen” clause. Rather, it constued the Fourteenth Amendment and it “citizen of the United States” clause. How can you want to make Fuller’s super dicta some binding precedent?
Mario, just come out and admit it already. The only problems you birthers actually have with Obama, is that he is a black man with a funny sounding name. If he had lighter skin and went by “Barry Dunham”, you wouldn’t have given him a second look.
The 12th and 20th do that. You lose again…
Ballantine,
You said: “And It doesn’t say “Citizens of the United States” cannot be President. It says all Citizens are eligible in 1787 and only natural born later. Simple English.”
So let’s see if I can understand what you are saying. Let us apply Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 to a hypothetical.
First, we cannot deny that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says: “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” The clause expressly states that, except for those who were grandfathered to be eligible to be President as “Citizens of the United States” if they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution, any person who is not a “natural born Citizen” is excluded from being President.
Second, let us assume that John Smith was born after the Constitution was adopted. Let us further assume that he is a “citizen of the United States” by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. Assuming that he is 40 years old and a resident of the United States for 40 years, can he be President?
Third, now let us assume that John Smith is a “citizen of the United States” by virtue of an Act of Congress. Assuming that he is 40 years old and a resident of the United States for 30 years, can he be President?
Mario
So Judge Sandford “erred” in Lynch v Clarke. William Guthrie “erred” in interpreting Wong Kim Ark. The Indiana court “erred” in the Ankeny case. Every single judge who has heard your arguments has also “erred”. That is a lot of errors isn’t? On the other hand maybe just one person “erred”?
Talk is cheap. GET BACK TO US WHEN YOU WIN A COURT CASE.
In the end, that’s all that matters in determining who got “beat”, Mario The Charlatan.
If the act of Congress is to naturalize Mr Smith, then no.
If talk is cheap, then why are Lawyers so bloody expensive?
http://instantrimshot.com/
Per Wong Kim Ark a citizen by birth under the 14th Amendment is a natural born citizen as Gray said they both were defined by the English common law rule. I know you never read the quotations I cite. The 14th Amendment was not an Act of Congress, but an Amendment that was declaratory and affirmative of the rule under the original Constitution. I know you ignore that part of WKA as well. Someone a citizen pursuant to a naturalization act is not natural born citizen but you have yet to show any Court that has ever said someone born on US is naturalized. Justice Gray makes clear they are not naturalized but you simply think what he says doesn’t count as has every other court that has addressed the issue. I know you have seen the quotes.
And no matter how you spin, the rationale of a decision is precedent not dicta and there is no way one can arrive at WKA being a citizen without defining the law under the original Constitution as the 14th Amendment was determined to be declaratory of the same rule. It is sad you don’t understand that.
Absolute balderdash. You ignore page after page of the Court’s opinion establishing the definition of “natural born” as being jus soli (why exactly would they bother to do this if it had nothing to do with how we define NBC?). Then you try to create some new and bizzaro separate catagory of 14th Amendment citizen, when the Court quite clearly stated, “the 14th Amendment is throughout affirmative and declaratory, intended to ally doubts and to settle controversies which had arisen…is declaratory of existing rights, and affirmative of existing law.” “The fourteenth amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth…. The amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent includes the children born within the territory of the United States of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States.” Quite simply, the 14th Amendment was intended to rid us of Dred Scott.
Your twisted contortions would actually have the effect of making the 14th Amendment alter the NBC cluase to either eliminate it, or simply require that you have to be born outside the borders of the US to be President. Amendments change the Constitution (something your “rule” of Constitutional construction seems to ignore. Or at least you ignore the fact that you don’t give effect to those parts that have been altered by Amendment). Where the original Constitution conflicts with an Amendment, the Amendment wins (i.e. Amend XVII altered Art I Sec. 3 by giving the people direct power to elect the Senate). Amend XIV states, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States….” So by your logic, no person born on US soil can be a Natural Born Citizen. There are no exceptions to the clause. It says, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States.” I suppose that would make John McCain the only person actually eligible to run for office since 1868.
I suppose it shouldn’t be a big surprise that no court has given any weight to your moon bat arguments.
Yes to the first example. Unknown as to the second. If the act of Congress was to declare children of those serving in the US military, born overseas, are citizens at birth (natural born citizens), then yes. If the act of Congress was to confer naturalization, no.
The Courts have repeatedly ruled that there are only two ways to obtain citizenship in the US, by birth (natural born citizens) or by naturalization (naturalized citizens).
Since the 14th Amend. was merely declarative of the law as it always has been, then provide he falls under the “born in” part of the 14th Amendment, yes, he is a Natural Born Citizen, and eligible to be President.
That depends. If the act of congress merely states him as a citizen, then argueably, we are dealing with Congress’ power to pass laws regarding naturalization. That would make him a naturalized citizen, and ineligible. However, John McCain is purportedly a Natural Born Citizen by virtue of an act of Congress passed 2 or 3 years after his birth, declaring those born to parents stationed in the Canal Zone were NBC. And the Senate, as well as several real Constitutional scholars argue that he does qualify. That however, continues to be the subject of scholarly debate.
Catching on that you’re not being taken seriously? The infantile inability to note how hysterical you stepped in it re: Misha is all frosting. Pure, cane-sugar sweet.
Gettin’ much legal-type stuff done today? I’m sure not seeing any here. And did I miss the beating(s)?
Mario
Why don’t you come back when you find each of the following:
1. Contemporary articles that said that Minor v Happersett defined explicitly the definition of natural born citizen and who could serve a president.
2. Contemporary articles that said that Wong Kim Ark was ruled to be a citizen but was not eligible to be president even if he met the age and residency requirements.
You would still be wrong based on recent decisions but you wouldn’t look like quite the idiot that you do now.
I believe the appropriate phrase is that like a dog you continue to return to your own vomit.
😆 Good one!
And like a dog, Mario licks his scrotum.
Reality Check,
1. You ask me: “So Judge Sandford “erred” in Lynch v Clarke.” Yes, a state court engaged in policy making over national citizenship which is the providence of Congress. First, the court did not correctly interpret the early naturalization acts, saying that Congress did not mean to also include in their scope children born in the United States to alien parents when the text of the acts does not support such a limited view of the acts. Second, the court was also only involved in a state property inheritance issue and turned its decision into one concerning national citizenship (rather than state citizenship which was all that was necessary to decide the dispute before it) and even who was eligible to run for president. That has go to be one of the most blatant cases of judicial overreaching that I have ever read.
2. You ask me: “William Guthrie “erred” in interpreting Wong Kim Ark.” Yes, in confirming that the Court held Wong to be a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” and no more and then saying, without arguing that the Court also found Wong to be a “natural born Citizen,” that he was eligible to be President.
3. You ask me: “The Indiana court “erred” in the Ankeny case.” Yes. The court said that Wong “held that Mr. Wong Kim Ark was a citizen of the United States “at the time of his birth.” In footnote 14 to this statement, it then said:
“We note the fact that the Court in Wong Kim Ark did not actually pronounce the plaintiff a “natural born Citizen” using the Constitution’s Article II language is immaterial. For all but forty-four people in our nation’s history (the forty-four Presidents), the dichotomy between who is a natural born citizen and who is a naturalized citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment is irrelevant. The issue addressed in Wong Kim Ark was whether Mr. Wong Kim Ark was a citizen of the United States on the basis that he was born in the United States. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. at 705, 18 S. Ct. at 478.”
So Ankeny condeded that the Court held Wong to be a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. But then without any explanation conflates and confounds that Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” with a “natural born Citizen.” In other words, it treated the Fourteenth Amendment as though it subsumbed, incorporated, or included within it Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. But there is no evidence that the Fourteenth Amendment ever repealed or amended the “natural born Citizen” clause and Ankeny simply assumes without explaining that it did.
My pleasure, although the full quote is probably even more apposite
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly
Shouldn’t that be scrota?
He has quite a dog pound.
Very appropriate, but I haven’t seen a dog that was proud of his vomit. Boastful, even. “Hey, have you guys tried this stuff? It’s my best yet!”
_________
Oh, Bovril just went all Biblical on him, beat me to it!
_________
Sir, would you like an extra shovel? Some assistance with the excavation of that hole you’re working on?
Apparently, birther bigots just can’t stop while they’re losing. That part of the birther bigot brain must be missing or damaged.
JoeZeppy,
What on earth are you talking about. A “natural born Citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country.
Thank you for clarifying which bogus NBC definition you were going by, since you birthers have multiple.
Still doesn’t change the fact that by your logic, one is required to be born outside the territorial limits of the United States to be a Natural Born Citizen.
bovril,
Talking about vomit, now I know why you call yourself bovril.
Like Obama…..
Misha,
I guess your next going to tell me about my panties like Reality Check did.
See, I was right about this filthy blog.
bovril,
You are so stupid that you even concede that this blog is vomit.
JoeZeppy,
Maybe some medication will help you.
Sadly, it appears that there is no amount of medication that can cure what ails you…There’s just no fixing stupid.
But at least the rest of us will enjoy your next judicial smack down. Just keep telling yourself everyone else erred. You’re the only one that knows the truth. Perhaps someday you’ll even convince yourself it’s true.
What a mental case you are. Get help.
Looks like Mario is hitting the bottle early today….I suppose if my legal career ended up like his, I might be prone to alcoholism as well.
Mario –
So basically, your argument really comes down to YOU claiming that the prior court decisions were all wrong, due to what you perceive to be “overreach” anytime they decided to reference Citizenship in a way that you personally don’t agree.
That’s really all this amounts to. You personally don’t agree nor accept the courts accepted positions. Nor do you accept what the 14th Amendment actually is and does…but I’ll address that particular issue in a follow-up post.
In other words, what you desire is to replace existing accepted law with your own novel interpretation. Yet you seem to back down and weasel around when you are actually writing your motions or arguing in front of an actual judge and just sort of dance around coming out and telling the courts that is what you wish to do.
The laws and the courts don’t care whether you personally accept or disagree with them. If you are incapable of WINNING your argument in court for replacing the existing established maxims with your own novel interpretations, then you have FAILED.
Which is where you are today. You’ve LOST in court EVERY time you’ve tried to push your “arguments”.
There seems to be three main reasons for that: One, your arguments are weak and full of a lot of disingenuous and specious bloviating that doesn’t help your case at all.
Second, you so far have come across quite inadequate and out of your league whenever you are actually in front of a courtroom and not just pretending to be a tough guy, hiding behind a keyboard.
Third and most importantly, the existing established body of law and rulings have consistently said otherwise. Therefore, this isn’t really some “uncharted territory” like you pretend it to be. No, this merely comes down to you failing to make any sufficient argument to the courts as to why the established conclusions were wrong. All you have is a whiney little yelp of “No fair – overreach!!!”, with very little to back it up.
Sorry, but neither the courts nor any rational person is going to feel empathy towards an impertinent and self-absorbed minnow who throws a tantrum demanding that the mighty river should stop flowing, just because he wishes he could swim upstream. There is simply no trout nor salmon to your arguments, only a furious thrashing of your little minnow tail.
So stop wasting everyone’s time pretending you are somebody that anyone should take seriously or pay attention to. You had your chance in court several times to plead your case. You’ve LOST and FAILED every time. Therefore, the courts have proven you WRONG every time.
So its been game over for you for awhile. You are just in denial and pretending, behind the quaint cozy protection of your keyboard, to be a somebody that you are not. You have merely proven to be just another random insecure blowhard with a blog and a scattering of desperate gullible idiot followers who are foolish enough to pay attention to your quixotic and long winded drama queen antics.
translation – i’ve had my arse handed to me so many times here that i’ll now throw a hissy fit and stomp off claiming victory even though i was soundly trounced.
hey mario, you going to answer the folks asking about the pakistan travel ban, seeing as you are ALWAYS honest and reply with rapier sharp wit to any questions
It happened: The 1976 Chowchilla kidnapping occurred in Chowchilla, California, on July 15, 1976, when kidnappers abducted 26 children and their adult driver from their school bus and imprisoned them in a buried truck. The driver, Frank Edward “Ed” Ray, was able to free the children, and the kidnappers were caught and convicted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Chowchilla_kidnapping
and
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/outlaws/chowchilla_kidnap/index.html
Whether William Guthrie made an error depends upon what one calls the holding. Some people call the disposition of the case the dispostion and rationale and the dispostion together the “holding.” Some people call the dispostiion the “holding” and the rationale the Ratio decidendi. Really doesn’t matter as they are both precedent, not dicta. You apparently slept through that class. So unless you can point out that this person said the natural born citizenship dicsussion was dicta, your cite is meaningless. And, as others have said, an opinion of some unknown authority means very little when Court after Court and shcolar after scholar have cited WKA as dispositive. You have made no case that the natural born citizenship discussion in WKA is dicta as you seem to have no understanding what such term means. No court spends 21 pages discussing something that is dicta and unless you can show such discussion to be unnecessary it is as a matter of law precednet, not dicta. I hope you are taking notes on some of this free legal education.
And Ankeny is right. It doesn’t matter if the Supreme Court declared WKA to be natural born. What matters is whether it defined who was natural born and whether it was dicta. Take note that Justice Waite never declared Virgina Minor a natural born citizen. Such point is irrelevant as to whether such discussion is dicta or not. I know this is a waste of time as you will just keep repeating you are right over and over and think you are winning the debate. Of course, everyone else on the thread is laughing at you but we know you really don’t pay attention to any posts debunking you and just repeat your made-up law over and over and over. Do you or your fringe followers ever feel silly saying court after court and scholar after scholar are all wrong and you are right. Starting to look like other fringe groups like the sovereign citizen or tax protestor movements which say the same things.
G,
Next time you write such a long comment, try saying something.
Poor Marion, complete falure to grasp basic gramamr and vocabulary, no wonder your legal “career” is such a failure.
Now I know they may be big words for you but I wrote that YOU (that’s Marion) returns to YOUR (Marion’s) own personal vomit of cack.
The sentence structure (that means how it’s put together) denotes (that means…means) the named entity (that’s you) after vomiting ridiculous, fact free nonsense, is compelled (that means forced) to return to said vomit due to your (Marion’s) crass idiocy.
There, hope that helps you grasp what was written down.
roadburner
Old hat.
*sigh*
Your problem is your willful blinders and tunnel vision in insisting upon limited options that differ from the reality of what the 14th Amendment actually *is* and *does* in regards to Citizenship.
It does NOT repeal nor amend the NBC clause. It merely clarifies that the superset of Citizenship only comes in two basic flavors:
EITHER:
Born (which Natural Born equates to)
OR
Naturalized.
That is essentially it, with respect to general definitions in regards to Citizenship. It is not creating *new* types of citizenship at all. Merely spelling out the two overall types that ALREADY exist and clarifying that either of those two types apply to ALL PERSONS subject to the jurisdiction of the US.
Yes, it really is that simple. Which is why even most young school children have very little difficulty in grasping that concept.
*sheesh*
*POP* goes the irony meter.
Ah! The translator kicked in. Excellent.
Why…
You never do.
“I guess your next going to tell me about my panties like Reality Check did,” says the arrogant twit who admonishes the incorrect grammar of others.
JoZeppy may be right about the putz hitting the bottle.
Actually, it’s considered by them to be a steadfast commitment and they highly favor that “stand up against all the facts they throw at you” approach.
So far, this is the ONLY paragraph I’ve seen from you that holds up and is correct.
Yes, that is how that sentence reads. It applies two optional quantified CONDITIONS (or subsets) of Citizens that qualify for the office of President. In simple terms, it is saying that not *every* Citizen is eligible – only those that meet EITHER of those conditional options:
“No Person except a [natural born] Citizen , OR a Citizen [of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution] , shall be eligible to the Office of President.”
So it simply does two things to narrow the eligibility field within this dimension of Citizenship:
First – it clarifies that Citizenship is a general requirement for a Person applying to this position.
Second – it specifies that Citizenship alone is not enough UNLESS that Citizenship ALSO meets EITHER of those two conditions.
As Citizenship is acquired in essentially one of two basic ways – you are either BORN a citizen or you are NATURALIZED to become one at some point AFTER you are born – the sentence is telling you that all BORN citizens ARE eligible, but the *only* NATURALIZED ones that are ALSO eligible are those that meet the TIMING qualifier of obtaining their Citizenship by the time the Constitution was adopted.
Simple as that.
There really is no supportable meaningful arguments out there that hold up in which “natural born” and “born” are not legally interpreted as synonymous terms. Sometimes the English language gets redundant and two words are used, when only one is necessary. That is the only area in which there was some reasonable research at one point…but the findings essentially support that the expressions “natural born” and “born” are applied synonymously.
Therefore ANY US Citizen that was “born” a Citizen meets that specific eligibility requirement under the first condition. Further, as there is no longer anyone alive today who meets the TIMING qualifier under the second condition, ONLY the first condition is still relevant to current and future eligibility for the office.
Your scenario lacks sufficient meaningful data to draw a conclusion. You have NOT clearly stated whether John Smith was BORN a US Citizen or became one via NATURALIZATION. So, you haven’t really addressed the only quantified conditions of Citizenship to which the Constitutional requirement of Presidential eligibility refers.
So there is simply two possibilities here – either John Smith, the 40-year old who has resided for 40 years in the US was BORN a US Citizen (i.e. NBC) – in which the answer is YES he *IS* eligible…
…
OR
…
John Smith, the 40-year old who has resided for 40 years in the US was NOT A US CITIZEN AT THE TIME OF HIS BIRTH (several scenarios for this are possible –such as came to US a week after his birth to foreign parents and was then adopted by US parents, born originally to foreign diplomats, etc.) and therefore, obtained his US Citizenship via some form of NATURALIZATION process – in which the answer is NO he *IS NOT* eligible…
The Citizenship they had AT BIRTH is what matters. If they weren’t originally BORN a US Citizen, then Adoption by US Parents and US residency only confer Naturalization.
http://www.hooyou.com/adoption/citizenship.html
Therefore, the aspect of adoption is IRRELEVANT to the conditions of the NBC clause in the Constitution in regards to Presidential eligibility. TIMING (i.e. you are either BORN qualified or you are NOT) is the ONLY CONDITION that matters.
Assuming that he is 40 years old and a resident of the United States for 40 years, can he be President?
Again, you are trotting out a meaningless alternate scenario here that doesn’t provide information sufficient to make any meaningful determination.
You have failed to CLARIFY exactly what this specific “Act of Congress” declared (and when) in terms of his Citizenship and have not specified the original conditions under which John Smith was born (where & to whom) in order to make that determination. Further, the timing assumption of WHEN and HOW his total 30-years US residency intersect within the span of his 40 years of life is unclear.
…So there is simply insufficient PROPERLY RELEVANT data to draw a clear conclusion in your scenario.
ONLY if all those conditions of his birth would make him a Statutory NBC via that Act of Congress, would he meet eligibility.
OTHERWISE, if his circumstances translate into that Act of Congress NATURALIZING him instead of making him NBC, then NO, not eligible.
But again, you are going off the rails wasting time on meaningless and insufficiently quantified hypothetical scenarios that have ZERO relevance or bearing on Obama’s circumstances and eligibility. You are merely wasting time trying to distract from the only relevant and pertinent conditions by shifting to meaningless and irrelevant tangents.
Ballantine,
Another snow job in the summer time. You just haughtily pontificate that Wong spent all these pages defining a “natural born Citizen.” It did not do any such thing. The Court construed the Fourteenth Amendment and not Article II. As an aid in that construction, the Court spent many pages telling us how the English common law defined a “natural born subject.” It then said, in referring to the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship: “The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.” Id. at 655-658, 18 S. Ct. at 459-460. It made such a statement without proving any sources that support the assertion.
In any event, here is the question asked by the Court:
“The question presented by the record is whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States by virtue of the first clause of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution,
Id. at 653.”
And here is the holding:
“The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.”
Id. at 705. So, we can see that the Court returned to the Fourteenth Amendment which was its task to construe. Now, ballantine, who did not fall asleep in law school when they talked about holdings but who did fall asleep when mother nature was doling out common sense to those who were not asleep, where do you see anything in either in the question presented or in the holding about a “natural born Citizen?” You don’t and all you can do is just keep begging the question and engaging in your circular reasoning.
G,
Why not try begging the question? Oh, actually you did.
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside”
Clearly then we have not had any natural born citizens since the 14th Amendment was enacted. The Constitution does not define natural born citizen anywhere in its text. The 14th Amendment spells out who is a citizen of the United States- those born in the U.S. and those naturalized.
I think what you are really arguing is that Natural born citizens are not U.S. citizens, which creates many problems- what passports do Natural Born Citizens travel on, since passports are not issued to Natural born citizens?
I just realized- my license requries that I be a U.S. citizen….but I am a natural born citizen….oops….
What idiocy.
My child learned about sets and super sets in elementary school.
U.S. citizens consist of all citizens of the United States- of which the Constitution mentions only two types- naturalized and natural born.
Oh well keep arguing……on the plus side….you are actually doing better here than you have done in court and you can’t get sanctioned here.
Majority Will,
Learn to read. It’s your next, not your are next.
Mario, how is your homework assignment coming? Better get to Googling. 😆
Why would the Court be construing Article II? Article II does not provide any definition of citizenship. The 14th Amendment provides the articulation of citizenship as it has always existed, removing any doubt created by Scott v. Sanford. There is no separate 14th Amendment Citizenship. You are either natural born or naturalized. The 14th Amendment merely articulates that. If you’re going to throw junk law around, at least be creative. Don’t drag b.s. that has been discredited for at least 30 years….but then again, you’re not even original enough to think up new junk law. Even your two parent b.s. is scraps from Donofrio’s table. Must really suck to be the only real lawyer in the birther clown car, and have to play second fiddle everyone else. Heck even the Orly train wreck gets more attention than you do.
Well, I just feel sorry for you that you cannot understand basic case law. To say Gray made the assertion that the definition of “natural born subject” prevailed under our Constituion without proving any sources is delusional as Gray spent the next 20 or so pages citing authority after authority after authority to support such position. He, in fact, cited every leading scholar and citizenship case in th early republic but, of course, you say such authority does not count. Of course, in a real courts, it counts. You simply claim that citing authority such as Kent, the most influential scholar of the 19th Century, doesn’t count as he didn’t prove his opinion was correct. Of course, the Court cites authority to point out its conclusion is supported by previous scholarship and never tries to prove such opinion is correct. Show me the citation from the Supreme Court on citizenship that not only cites Vattel as correct, but proves Vattel is correct. There is no case in category 1, much less category 2. Again, you simply don’t understand case law.
So Waite cites no authority at all and his unsupported assertions are binding. Gray cites 20 pages of authority to support his conculsion and it doesn’t count. Can’t understnd why courts ignore your arguments. LOL. At this point I am convinced you are just stupid.
And, as you point out, the disposition of WKA says persons of his status were citizens, not citizens under the 14th Amendment. This is after he spent 21 pages telling us that WKA would be a citizen under the original Constitution since it incorporated the English common law defintion of natural born subject and then spending he next 20 pages saying that he was also a citizen under the 14th Amendment since it reaffirmed the same English rule. Again, it seems you cannot read English. To say that the holding is based solely on the 14ht Amendment is dishonest and to deny that the rationale with respect to citizrenship both before and after the 14th Amendment is based upon the adoption of the English common law is again dishonest as that is what the Court says. Do you want me to quote you the relevant provisions yet again since the case is too difficult for you to read? You will simply say they don’t count.
With each post you look dumber and dumber, but I guess you can still tell yourself you are winning.
Mario, why not try making an actual valid argument, because so far you have failed to do so…
Yes, that seems to be the entire idiocy of Mario’s string of failed premises here… hence why he’s getting nowhere (neither here nor in the courts) and can only huff and puff a bunch of meaningless smoke…
Exactly! Same as I told him and others have endlessly done so as well…
Mario’s one-trick pony act in a nutshell.
Both pathological and pathetic at the same time…
Your next? Seriously, are you high?
“I guess your next going to tell me about my panties like Reality Check did.”
The possessive form of you possesses what exactly? My “next going”?
I guess you are going to tell us next that you’re not actually impaired.
…a walking punchline in a cheap suit.
Permanent Residents of the United States may petition for their husband or wife and for their unmarried children no matter what age. They may not petition for their parents or for their married children. Only citizens of the United States may petition for their parents and married children.
Unfortunately apparently Natural Born Citizens are not allowed to pettiton for their parents and married children to the INS- only ‘citizens of the United States”
Oops- same problem with the Olympics- only citizens of the United States may compete on behalf of the United States in the Olympics. Jim Thorpe already had to give up his medals- how many more of our athletes will suffer because of Mario exposing the truth?
Oh man- and apparently I – as a natural born citizen- am not eligible for publicly funded healthcare in California- only those darn ‘citizens of the United States’ are eligible.
But my biggest concern is when the Fed’s will show up to pull my license once they realize that I am eligible to be President, but not eligible for the license I hold…..
I guess he got fed up with no one buying his lies, and overall poor understanding of the laws he keeps trying to quote.
-(Punchmaster General)
I say this in all seriousness. Mr. Apuzzo has been hanging out on his own blog for several years now, where pretty much anything he says is fawned over by the birthers non-critically. Consistent praise for doing a poor job cannot help but contribute to both intellectual atrophy and ethical decline.
Mario,
Assuming your “two parent” theory is true, what is your definition of an anchor baby?
To clarify Mario’s homework:
Can we define contemporary as the first 10 years? So 1875 – 1885 is a good number for Minor and 1898-1908 for Wong Kim Ark.
Indeed. Well said!
sfjeff,
All members of the United States are “citizens.” There are two types of “citizens,” “natural born Citizen” and “citizens of the United States.”
Professor Reality Check,
I see you just cannot unlock that homework mentality
Anchor baby:
Piyush Howdy DoodyBobby Jindal. Also, Michelle Malkin, who is married to a neocon.ballantine,
You keep repeating the same thing over and over about all those pages in Wong Kim Ark. Why not just produce the sources that Justice Gray relied upon to prove that jus soli continued to prevail for national citizenship after July 4, 1776 and the adoption of the Constitution. But then you can’t handle such simple tasks because your are just so confused in all this.
Thomas Brown,
Do you know how cheap you are saying someone is wearing a “cheap suit?’
When presented with a legal issue, there are two approaches.
One can research with an open mind to find the answer to a question. All options are considered and the conclusion is reached by weighing all the information available. You will find posters at The Fogbow who don’t support Obama’s policies, but, because they are intellectually honest, they have concluded that Obama is eligible for the Presidency.
The second approach is to first form a conclusion, then research to find support for your position. The birthers have concluded that Obama is not eligible to be President and based their research on that conclusion. That is intellectually dishonest. All research is colored by their preconceptions. Whether they cite a source depends not on its relevance and reliability, but on whether it supports their conclusion.
There is a major disconnect when persons in the first group try to argue with persons in the second group. It’s like they’re speaking different languages. It’s apparent every time Apuzzo spouts his nonsense. He is so invested in his approach that he is incapable of understanding the honest research of the non-birthers. Of course, he could be intelligent enough to see the idiocy of his arguments, but he is so invested in his published conclusions that he can’t change his position without looking more foolish than he already does.
Incorrect: Citizens and “Citizens of the United States” are the EXACT SAME THING.
All Natural Born Citizens *ARE* “Citizens of the United States”
Thus, NBC is merely a SUBSET of “Citizens of the United States”.
*duh*
The correct two types (i.e. subsets) of US Citizens are: Natural Born & Naturalized.
*duh*
I mean seriously, how can you be so dense to not figure this out yet… *sheesh*
sfjeff,
I see you have been busy.
Your point is absurd. And you would not expect that those benefits be limited only to “natural born Citizens,” would you? Also, how could a “citizen of the United States” qualify for something and a “natural born Citizen” not? They are both “citizens.”
The same is true here. I would suspect that such is fairly common amongst rational boards where reality-based thinkers congregate.
I disagree and would say that is merely a fool’s argument.
Doubling down on being a fool only serves to make one appear even more foolish.
The fool is a fool because he doesn’t grasp that everyone else sees through his foolishness right off the bat. For awhile, they might feel sympathetic and attribute the foolishness to naivity or lazy thinking and give the fool a little bit of time to re-think through his argument and own up to the nonsense parts of it.
However, doubling down fools none. It only further reveals the fool for who he is and only serves to convince others that he’s incapable of being anything but a fool… The fool only loses what remaining credibility he had and empathy/sympathy for such a person dwindles quickly to zero.
Forgiveness is easy and exists for those who are man enough to admit their mistakes. Only the craven fool will desperately clutch onto his own BS when called onto the carpet for it.
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to imply that that isn’t true here. I just happened to see someone bristle at Fogbow today because he wasn’t an Obama supporter but had strong views about the absurdity of birthers. I enjoy reading comments both here and at Fogbow. There are great posters at both sites.
Uh, again, you cannot cite a single authority to support that. Everyone else in history says there are two types; i.e., natural born and naturalized. We are waiting for your citations.
G,
I see that you have been studying hard to prove me wrong. But your study is not enough.
You have recognized that membership in the United States is called “citizen” and that a “citizen” is either a “natural born Citizen” or a “citizen of the United States.” Pretty good so far but then you run into trouble.
You said: “As Citizenship is acquired in essentially one of two basic ways – you are either BORN a citizen or you are NATURALIZED to become one at some point AFTER you are born – the sentence is telling you that all BORN citizens ARE eligible, but the *only* NATURALIZED ones that are ALSO eligible are those that meet the TIMING qualifier of obtaining their Citizenship by the time the Constitution was adopted.” Hence, you maintain that a “Citizen of the United States” in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is only a naturalized citizen AFTER birth who is given a time limit to qualify after which he or she can no longer qualify to be President.
The Founders and Framers used the specific clause “Citizen of the United States” and disqualified that class of citizens in the future from being eligible to be President. That is the problem that you attempt to overcome. The only reason that you have defined your grandfather “Citizen of the United States” as those who acquired their citizenship after birth and who were to be heard from only within a small window of time which has since expired is so that you can just make these “Citizens of the United States” disappear from the map and then just deal with “natural born Citizens” by putting forth the argument that all “citizens” are either born or naturalized, with all born citizens being “natural born Citizens” and all the rest being naturalized. You make this argument because you need to avoid having to deal with what is a “citizen of the United States” under Congressional Acts and the Fourteenth Amendment vis--vis a “natural born Citizen.”
But you cannot escape so easily the disqualifying force of the Founders’ and Framers’ “citizen of the United States” and make that status disappear so easily by giving that status a limited life and then deal with the “natural born Citizen” issue through your “born citizen” versus “naturalized citizen” dichotomy. Your definition of an Article II “Citizen of the United States,” which limits that status only to those who became naturalized after birth before the Constitution was adopted does not account for the fact that our laws continued to make “citizens of the United States” who came into being after the adoption of the Constitution and that the Founders and Framers specifically planned for this. They gave Congress the power to naturalize which meant they gave Congress the power to make more “citizens.” Starting with the Naturalization Act of 1790, Congress exercised this power and declared a child born out of the United States to “citizen” parents to be “considered as a natural born citizen” and those who naturalized after birth as “citizens of the United States.” In the Naturalization Act of 1795 and all that followed, Congress called both “at birth” and after birth “citizens” “citizens of the United States.” So, Congress created more “citizens of the United States.” Moreover, Congress used the clause “citizen of the United States,” not only to describe children who became “citizens of the United States” after birth, but also to describe children who become “citizens of the United States” “at birth.” Regarding those children who were made “citizens of the United States” “at birth,” Congress acted through a naturalization act which it passed by exercising its naturalization powers. Hence, those children were naturalized “at birth.” So, we have naturalized citizens who were naturalized not only after birth but also “at birth.” Even Wong Kim Ark and Bellei confirmed that Congress has this power to create this type of citizenship and indeed does create naturalized citizens “at birth.” Additionally, the Civil Rights Act of 1866, another one of Congress’s naturalization acts, made more ‘citizens at birth” and even “citizens of the United States” “at birth” of children born in the United States. Again Congress produced naturalized citizens who were not only naturalized after birth. Finally, Congress again used the clause “citizens of the United States” when it wrote the Fourteenth Amendment in which it recognized such citizens to be both “at birth” and after birth. It is telling that Congress did not use in any of these laws “natural born Citizen.”
So you do not confront the meaning of a “citizen of the United States,” which clause has been used since the Founding and down to the presents in all our laws. Rather you opt to reduce the “natural born Citizen” analysis to the question of whether someone is “natural born” or naturalized after birth. But I have shown that a “citizen of the United States” has a life all of its own, starting during the Founding and continuing to through all the Congressional Acts and the Fourteenth Amendment. You cannot just simply sweep a “citizen of the United States” under the rug by relegating him to a limited time during the Founding which as you contend has long expired and put in its place a naturalized citizen after birth. Again, as I have shown, all our laws also include within “citizen of the United States” naturalization at birth.
You also have no evidence that when the Founders and Framers wrote “natural born Citizen,” they meant “born Citizen” and nothing more. Article II’s text says “natural born Citizen,” not “born citizen.” You try to avoid this textual problem by simply proclaiming:
“There really is no supportable meaningful arguments out there that hold up in which “natural born” and “born” are not legally interpreted as synonymous terms. Sometimes the English language gets redundant and two words are used, when only one is necessary. That is the only area in which there was some reasonable research at one point…but the findings essentially support that the expressions “natural born” and “born” are applied synonymously.”
This is just all made up stuff that is nothing more than your self-serving personal opinion. Such a statement violates one of the cardinal tenets of constitutional construction, i.e., that every clause and word in the constitution must be given effect. “Verba a liquid operari debent; debent intellegi ut aliquid operantur.” This is translated to mean: “Words ought to have some operation; they ought to be interpreted in such a way as to have some operation.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1396 (5th ed. 1979). “Verba a liquid operari debent; verba cum effectu sunt accipienda.” Words are to be taken so as to have effect.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1396 (5th ed. 1979). See also, Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803), in which Chief Justice Marshall said: “It cannot be presumed that any clause in the constitution is intended to be without effect; and, therefore, such a construction is inadmissible…” Indeed, Chief Justice Marshall told us that we have to give meaning and effect to every word the framers wrote in the Constitution.
By your own argument, you have Congress making “born citizens” and then you holding them out as “natural born Citizens.” If simply being born a “citizen” produced a “natural born Citizen,” there is no reason why Congress would not have written “natural born Citizen” rather than “citizen of the United States” in the Fourteenth Amendment and its naturalization acts and then dealt separately with those who are naturalized after birth. Your ‘born citizen” argument is the very reason the Founders and Framers wrote “natural born Citizen” and not just “born Citizen.” The Founders did not give Congress the power to make any “natural born Citizen.” And they surely would not expect that Congress would make such citizens through its naturalization powers simply by calling them “born citizens.” If Congress with its positive law makes one a “born Citizen,” then a fortiori one is not and cannot be a “natural born Citizen.” Finally, Congress had the opportunity to get into the business of making “natural born Citizens” when it passed the Fourteenth Amendment. But Congress refused to get involved, keeping the amendment’s text to “citizen of the United States.”
So we are back to a “natural born Citizen” and a “citizen of the United States.” Each is a word of art. Each has its own meaning. The two cannot be conflated and confounded. A “natural born Citizen” needs to be compared to a “citizen of the United States” because this latter citizen is what the Framers wrote into the Constitution, the framers wrote into the Fourteenth Amendment, and Congress wrote into its naturalization laws. Both framers and Congress did not write naturalized citizen as a class of citizen into those constitutional provisions and laws. They wrote “citizen of the United States.” And Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that only a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be President. Anybody that is born after the adoption of the Constitution who is a “citizen of the United States” and not a “natural born Citizen,” is not eligible to be President. So is Mr. Obama just a “citizen of the United States,” or is he also a “natural born Citizen?”
Every living citizen of the United States are either individuals who were born citizens or were naturalized after birth. Natural born citizens are not naturalized. Any other questions I can help you with?
Why would I have to produce them when Gray clearly cites them and they clearly state that after 1776, the English common law controlled our citizenship law and that natural born subject meant the same thing as natural born citizen. If the majority opinion in Wong Kim Ark cited no authority, it woulo still be precedent. But the fact is it cites authority after authority which have been cited here over and over. Your simply saying such authority doesn’t count is simply desperation. What is funnier is that Justice Waite cites no authority at all and you claim such opionion is dispositive. Now why don’t you try being an honest person and go read where Justice Gray state that natural born citizen defined by the common law and that the definition of “natural born citizen” previaled under our Constitution followed by 20 pages of citations supporting such common law definition. are you unable to read these pages? Do you pretned authority that says you are wrong just doesn’t count. Has any case you have cited proven the founders agreed with you? Of course, the cases you cite generally don’t even address citizenship. But since you can’t read, explain how these provisions don’t say you are worng:
“[t]he Constitution of the United States, as originally adopted, uses the words ‘citizen of the United States,’ and ‘natural-born citizen of the United States’” and that “[t]he Constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words…[i]n this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the constitution….’[t]he interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
“It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.”
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion [p663] that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, “a natural-born citizen.” It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
“The term “citizen,” as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term “subject” in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people, and he who before as a “subject of the king” is now “a citizen of the State.”
“And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King’s obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary. . . . Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives, and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.”
“The term “citizen,” as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term “subject” in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people, and he who before as a “subject of the king” is now “a citizen of the State.”
“The doctrine of the common law is that every man born within its jurisdiction is a subject of the sovereign of the country where he is born, and allegiance is not personal to the sovereign in the extent that has been contended for; it is due to him in his political capacity of sovereign of the territory where the person owing the allegiance as born.”
“it is beyond doubt that, before the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, all white persons, at least, born within the sovereignty of the United States, whether children of citizens or of foreigners, excepting only children of ambassadors or public ministers of a foreign government, were native-born citizens of the United States.”
“Natives are all persons born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the United States. This is the rule of the common law, without any regard or reference to the political condition or allegiance of their parents, with the exception of the children of ambassadors, who are in theory born within the allegiance of the foreign power they represent. . . ”
“Allegiance is nothing more than the tie or duty of obedience of a subject to the sovereign under whose protection he is, and allegiance by birth is that which arises from being born within the dominions and under the protection of a particular sovereign. Two things usually concur to create citizenship: first, birth locally within the dominions of the sovereign, and secondly, birth within the protection and obedience, or, in other words, within the allegiance of the sovereign.”
“Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children, even of aliens, born in a country while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government and owing a temporary allegiance thereto, are subjects by birth.”
“The common law principle of allegiance was the law of all the States at the time of the Revolution and at the adoption of the Constitution, and, by that principle, the citizens o the United States are, with the exceptions before mentioned, such only as are either born or made so, born within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States or naturalized by the authority of law, either in one of the States before the Constitution or, since that time, by virtue of an act of the Congress of the United States. The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute.”
“So far as we are informed, there is no authority, legislative, executive or judicial, in England or America, which maintains or intimates that the statutes (whether considered as declaratory or as merely prospective) conferring citizenship on foreign-born children of citizens have superseded or restricted, in any respect, the established rule of citizenship by birth within the dominion. Even those authorities in this country, which have gone the farthest towards holding such statutes to be but declaratory of the common law have distinctly recognized and emphatically asserted the citizenship of native-born children of foreign parents.”
“citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the Constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization.”
Hence, the Court says over and over and over that you are wrong. No real court has any trouble understanding this and your desparate rantings on the internet is simply sad for a member of the bar. Statements such as these, either made by the court or adopted into the decision, means the majority of the Court agreed with them. If fringe groups refuse to accept the Courts’ opinion it is of no consequence in the real world as there is always some fringe group with their own fringe theory.
ballantine,
I guess you cannot follow simple instructions or is it like I said, you are just so confused in all this?
Mario, Mario, Mario. See what happens when you don’t read the complete opinion of the court and only cherry pick…it makes you look totally stupid and not as an attorney, but as an ambulance chaser. As you’ve been shown before, from Minor V Happersett:
“Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it provides6 that ‘no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,’7 and that Congress shall have power ‘to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.’ Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”
You are the confused one. You wanted the sources Gray cited and I cited them. Your saying they don’t count is simple desperation. The law cited and approved by the majority of the Suprme Court that say you are wrong over and over must be pretty devastating.
“members” now? Another new term. So, citizens have “memberships”? Doe the management ever run any specials? Do we get any sweet discounts with our memberships?
So what’s gone wrong in your cases, Mario? How are the courts in NJ “erring”?
And all this general, theoretical talk …. is there a specific case that prompted all this discussion?
Mario Apuzzo,
Parsing in my head the errors you make in your response to G is one thing; typing them out is too much after a long day of actual work. You can keep thinking you are right. Good for you. Let us know when you win a court case with those arguments. In the meantime, don’t mind us for thinking you are posting foolish nonsense. We are mere blog commenters. Win a case and show us our errors.
Oh I understand this is what you believe.
Which is a real problem because as a Natural Born Citizen, I am clearly not eligible for any of the licenses or programs reserved for ‘citizens of the United States”.
I mean if what you are saying had any basis in reality.
Duh. A term of art means someone other than you defined “Citizen of the United States” like you have. No one ever has. To state, as you have, that capitalization makes a difference is the most patheitc argument I have ever seen a lawyer make.
And which no one in history has ever said meant anything other than natural born and naturalized citizens. I know, you think you can make up you own definition.
Really sad that you are so ignorantnot ot know that the members of the Congress who passed such act clearly stated it was not a naturalization act since Congress had no power to naturalize persons born in the US. There was much discussion on this subject with Senators such as Reverdy Johnson pointing out that such was the position of the Supreme Court. Indeed, the only judicial opinions of such act are US v. Rhodes and Wong Kim Ark which both made clear such was not a naturalization act. Sad that Mario has done no research on these issues.
We are still waiting for the court citation that anyone born on US soil is a naturalized citizen. Dred Scott, Us. v. Rhodes, Lynch v. Clarke, Attorney Genral Bates, Wong Kim Ark and every legal dictionary of the 19th century says you are wrong. You provide no response. I asked you to show me the definition of “alien” that included children of aliens. Surely you can provide one citation if such was the law. Where is it? Wilson, Kent, Tucker, Bouvier, Swift, White, Townshend, Burrell and on and on don’t agree with you. Where are the authorities that say you are right. Of course, they don’t exist.
A “natural born Citizen” needs to be compared to a “citizen of the United States” because this latter citizen is what the Framers wrote into the Constitution, the framers wrote into the Fourteenth Amendment, and Congress wrote into its naturalization laws.Both framers and Congress did not write naturalized citizen as a class of citizen into those constitutional provisions and laws.They wrote “citizen of the United States.”And Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that only a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be President.Anybody that is born after the adoption of the Constitution who is a “citizen of the United States” and not a “natural born Citizen,” is not eligible to be President.So is Mr. Obama just a “citizen of the United States,” or is he also a “natural born Citizen?”
If only there could be “natural born Citizens of the United States”, then we could all get along and live happily ever after. But, goshdarnit, those mean ole Founders split us right down the middle. No wonder partisanship never ends!
Instead, we’re all just natural born Citizens [of what?!?]. ‘What’ a bummer. At least those “Citizens of the United States” know what country they belong to. Us poor NBCs can’t even get assigned to a planet, much less a species. Having something so specific as a country to call home … ! What a blessed existence that would be!
( 😛 )
Hey Loser, seriously, is that all you got?
Anytime you’d like a video of me leg pressing over 1100 lbs, let me know. You prob get into that kind of thing since it’s certainly not all too exciting to Lose all the time, right?
Ego aside, dude, seriously, get a life. We all get it – you don’t like the scary black man in the White House. But you can’t win because truth is not on your side, and because you can’t get away with false truths. Not this time.
So get a life. I mean, doesn’t it look really bad to have the word Loser listed next to all your court cases?
There’s some overlap of posters between the two sites, some with different handles. Doc and Fogbow serve different purposes, but both are extremely valuable to the anti-birther community.
— Ms. Whatever4
Since Mario ignored my simple one sentence question regarding the definition of anchor baby, I will assume that he has no answer.
Further, he seems to be saying that one cannot become naturalized until they’re 35 or older… which is no descriptive of a baby.
My take?
Mario comes here because he’s a masochist.
I think he *likes* to be beaten any way he can.
That’s my truth and to date he’s never denied it.
In fact, time after time he has gone to court fully knowing he *will* be beaten.
Court records have backed this up.
Jim,
“Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it provides that ‘no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,’ and that Congress shall have power ‘to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.’ Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”
Minor v. Happersett.
Jim, Jim, Jim. See what happens when you do not understand what you are reading which has been your problem here all along.
You do not understand the difference between born a “citizen” by virtue of birth alone and created a “citizen” by virtue of positive law.
Minor said that Virginia Minor did not need the Fourteenth Amendment or any other law to make her a “natural-born citizen” and thus a “citizen.” It relied on the “common-law” which was based on natural law and the law of nations to find her to be a “natural-born citizen.”
Wong Kim Ark did not say that Wong did not need the Fourteenth Amendment or any other law to make him a “citizen of the United States” and thus a “citizen.” It relied on the Fourteenth Amendment and the English common law to construe its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause to find him to be a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth.
Virginia Minor was born a “natural-born citizen” and therefore a “citizen’ by virtue of her birth alone and not by any positive law.
Wong was not born a “citizen” by virtue of his birth alone, but rather created a “citizen of the United States” and therefore a “citizen” by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Continuing on in Minor …
Mario, using only the text of Minor, please explain my Wong was, in the terms of Minor, as “alien minor” as opposed to a “native minor”. Was he, despite being born in the US, still an “alien minor”? How is that determined in Minor? If he was already a “citizen by birth”, was that a natural born citizen, or not?
Having gone through a stack of tomes ranging from 1885 – 1920 … they all say the same things regarding Minor … which should be obvious by reading Minor … the case did not define any form of citizenship, but rather determined that Minor was already a citizen, was not made a citizen by the 14th amendment, and that voting was a privilege. That privilege is under the control of the states insofar as they do not arbitrarily discriminate in its control on the basis of race, gender, etc.
Ballantine,
Delusional, as all your other rants, that you believe that St. George Tucker supports your theory that the English common law defined an Article II “natural born Citizen.” Not even close my friend.
Let us examine what Tucker said:
3. Civil rights, taken in a strict and confined sense, as contradistinguished from natural and social rights, are such as appertain to a man as a citizen or subject, of this, or that, particular state or country; in his private and individual capacity as a free agent, and member of the body politic or state, in respect to the state or body politic; and contradistinguished from such as might be due to him as a magistrate, legislator, judge, or other public agent, character, or functionary. The right of electing, and being elected to, any public office or trust, may be considered as among the most important of these rights.
These civil rights may be inherited, or acquired, in the United States: they are acquired by a foreigner who is naturalized; they are inherited by all whose parents, at the time of their birth, were citizens.
***
Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.
http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm
So there you have it. Any child who was a “citizen” and who was not born to “citizen” “parents” was a “naturalized” “citizen” and not a “natural born Citizen.” As a “naturalized” “citizen,” he or she was “forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States.” Hence, only if one was born to “citizen” “parents” could one possess the “civil right” to be elected President.
SluggoJD,
You must have eaten a lot of spaghetti or was it rigatoni to get those legs so strong.
Whatever 4,
You’re so nice.
U.S. Citizen,
You call yourself U.S. Citizen, but you can’t fight your own battles. I don’t think you are a U.S. Citizen.
Sorry Mario, no studying required to reach the very elementary and almost self-evident conclusions that I reached.
Really Mario, this is grade school level concepts that you seem utterly incapable of grasping correctly. I come back from my evening and find this bizarre and insane diatribe from you… *facepalm* You know, there has been quite a debate about whether you believe your own nonsense or are only a dishonest bloviating hack. Really, when your arguments become as absurd and dumb as what you wrote, it no longer matters. There has to be some level of mental malfunction going on in your head to even think you could get away with uttering such inane crockery.
NO. Wrong. That is NOT what I’ve said at all. I said:
That is NOT at all the same as the nonsense that you keep repeating. Obviously, you have a very large reading comprehension problem. *facepalm* I have not run into any trouble. You on the other hand come across clueless and incapable of grasping basic concepts.
Yes, that is correct.
NO! *facepalm* I have a hard time believing that even *you* are really this dense. That is NOT at all what I said:
Again, *BOTH* Natural Born Citizens and Naturalized Citizens are “Citizens of the United States.” The Constitution merely specifies a time limit to qualify under the Naturalized option (by the time of the Adoption of the Constitution).
Incorrect – they ONLY disqualified a SUBSET OF A SUBSET of that class of “Citizen of the United States”:
“No Person except a [natural born] Citizen , OR a Citizen [of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution] , shall be eligible to the Office of President.”
You seem to not grasp how basic English grammar works. The “, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution” is an adjective phrase quantifying a specific SUBSET of those non-Natural Born Citizens. (i.e. Naturalized Citizens).
This is really elementary stuff…that you lack such basic comprehension skills is nearly unbelievable!
So, to break it down in simple terms:
SUPERSET – Citizen of the United States (comprised of Natural Born Citizens and Naturalized Citizens).
SUBSET 1: Natural Born Citizen = ALL in this subset *are* ELIGIBLE to the Office of President.
SUBSET 2: All Citizens who are OTHER than “Natural Born Citizens” (i.e. “naturalized”, as that is the ONLY other type)
Within SUBSET 2, the respective Clause in the Constitution gives a further quantifier, based on timeframe, to exclude those citizens within this particular subset 2 who have not achieved their Citizenship by the time the Constitution becomes adopted. Think of it like a filing deadline. Pretty much the same simple concept.
Therefore, SUBSET 2 is parsed to break down further, in terms of the specific argument of Presidential eligibility:
SUBSET 2 : Sub-subset 1: Those who Naturalized (i.e. became Citizens of the US) *by the time* that the Constitution becomes adopted = All these *are* ELIGIBLE.
SUBSET 2 : Sub-subset 2: Those who Naturalized (i.e. became Citizens of the US) *AFTER* the timethat the Constitution becomes adopted = All these are *NOT* eligible.
There is NO problem that I have to overcome at all. It is quite a simple and basic concept and logical construct and does not have any holes. The only hole here is in your head, which can’t grasp such simple basic set theory concepts and fails to properly comprehend basic English grammar rules. Your nonsensical interpretation is the only thing full of problems.
Nobody has “disappeared” you farcical drama queen. The second clause no longer applies today (hint: the year is 2012 Mario) is because EVERYONE who satisfied the conditions within SECOND OPTION is now DEAD!!!
Every non-Natural Born Citizen (in other words Naturalized Citizens) of the United States, who is ALIVE today, BECAME Naturalized AFTER the Adoption of the Constitution. Hence, they fall under SUBSET 2 : Sub-subset 2: that I already explained above and the Constitution gives us a CLEAR answer for them, within the context of that specific clause – NOT eligible.
Not at all. Such argument (HINT: *your* “argument”) is completely unnecessary BECAUSE it is irrelevant on its face.
As has been stated endlessly to you, the 14th Amendment did NOT create any *new* types of citizenship that didn’t already exist. It simply added further clarification that there has always been ONLY TWO – Born and Naturalized and more importantly, that those two options are available to all persons subject to the jurisdiction of the US. This simply makes it clear that NO discriminatory forms of bigotry (whether race, sex, religion, etc.) could remove that right to either be born with or pursue obtaining (again, Naturalization if not Natural Born) citizenship for those subject to the jurisdiction of the US.
There is no REAL issue of “Congressional Acts” in this general sense of the argument. Nor is there within ANY RELEVANT context that applies to the specific scenario at hand – Barack Obama’s citizenship. He was born on US soil and therefore, NO “Congressional Act” is applicable.
So again, you are wasting your time picking at nits that have nothing to do with any reality based scenario in front of you or the courts. There is ZERO value or need of even going down those paths, because they simply have ZERO present relevance to the actual issue at hand at all.
Yes I can. I already easily did. Because your entire rationale for argument here is based on a completely faulty premise and both INCORRECT reading of what I said and more importantly, what the Constitution says.
The problem doesn’t exist except within your wrongheaded imagination. Simple as that.
Nope. I *never* defined “Citizen of the United States” as you just did. See above, where I’ve repeatedly been clear that “Citizen of the United States” = SUPERSET (Natural Born Citizens + Naturalized Citizens).
That is vastly different that the bogus nonsense you are claiming here, so your entire argument is without merit and unworthy of further comment, as it is fallacious to begin with.
Furthermore, the rest of your frothing screed is simply NOT COMPARITIVE to Obama’s birth situation, as Obama was BORN ON US SOIL. No PERSON born on US soil had to obtain their US Citizenship from any act of Congress or Statute. They are natural born citizens here by the very definition of being born within the boundaries of our lands. No paperwork or laws necessary to grant that. Sorry. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
So absolutely NO forms of Statutory NBC (which only applies to the sub-sub set of NBC, who are born OUTSIDE of US soil) apply to Obama’s situation at all. Therefore, you are merely wasting time rambling down an irrelevant rabbit hole.
Really G, this is grade school level concepts that you seem utterly incapable of grasping correctly. I come back from my evening and find this bizarre and insane diatribe from you… *facepalm* You know, there has been quite a debate about whether you believe your own nonsense or are only a dishonest bloviating hack. Really, when your arguments become as absurd and dumb as what you wrote, it no longer matters. There has to be some level of mental malfunction going on in your head to even think you could get away with uttering such inane crockery.
There were “Citizens of the United States” before there were any “natural born Citizens.” Then “Citizens of the United States” were no longer eligible to be President, but “natural born Citizens” were. If these two classes of “citizens” started their existence separately from each other, and then when one died off and another continued to provide presidential eligibility, how can a “natural born Citizen” then end up being a subset of a “Citizen of the United States?”
I mean seriously, how can you be so dense to not figure this out yet… *sheesh*
That is NOT at all the same as the nonsense that you keep repeating. Obviously, you have a very large reading comprehension problem. *facepalm* I have not run into any trouble. You on the other hand come across clueless and incapable of grasping basic concepts.
Mr. Apuzzo,
The purpose of us asking these questions is to observe you having no answers.
Your true name is recorded, not ours.
We’re just anonymous pseudonyms and bots.
We don’t feel any insults.
Feel free to make more statements as you can.
Thank you.
Because that *is* the basic meaning of “citizen of the United States”… It *does* reduce to *exactly* that.
*duh*
*snore*. No you haven’t. Only in your wild and very inaccurate imagination. As your entire premise is faulty and based on an incorrect grasp of simple concepts, the rest of your “argument” is not even an “argument” at all. It is simply a bunch of incoherent hot air based on fictional scenarios that either don’t exist as you described them or are simply not relevant to the case…and often both.
This site is FULL of that evidence – a number of articles over the years hear have researched and addressed that very topic and the archives contain all of that info and the commentary upon it. I’d advise you to read up and do your own research:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/bookmarks/citizenship/
…but since you’ve repeatedly demonstrated an utter lack of basic reading comprehension and a willful and disingenuous intent to own up to your mistakes and grasp concepts that disagree with your silly preconceived and wrongheaded notions, I have zero faith that you have the convictions to do so.
Nope. See above. Sorry, but you are merely stomping your feet and throwing an obstinate and futile tantrum again. HINT: Synonyms still have “meaning” as words. They just happen to mean the same thing as other words. Buy a thesaurus and realize how large it is. The English language is simply rife with synonyms and oddly phrased colloquialisms. So no “cardinal tenets” have been violated here at all…
Nope. My argument NEVER said or did any such thing. In both the general and most common context of “natural born” citizenship and more importantly – the specific type of NBC to which Obama applies – being BORN WITHIN THE US, Congress doesn’t “make” anything. If you are BORN here, you are automatically NBC. Simple as that. Parentage is irrelevant.
Yes, there are ALSO other ways to obtain NBC status (i.e. for those born outside of US soil to one or more parents that are US Citizens), but those are EXCEPTIONS to the main and most common method and more importantly are completely INAPPLICABLE to Obama’s birth circumstances, and therefore completely irrelevant scenarios to address.
So again, the bulk of your screed here is simply off the rails and wasting time running down an irrelevant rabbit hole.
No wonder you are doing so poorly in the courts. You seem to do nothing but bloviate and meander on meaningless tangents which have no direct attachment to the actual case at hand. There is a phrase for that: “Stuck on Stupid”…
U.S. Citizen,
See, I was right. You are not a U.S. citizen. Not only are you not capable of fighting your own battles, but you are also brain dead.
G,
You said that “Citizens of the United States” are made up of “natural born Citizens” and naturalized citizens. Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that “Citizens of the United States” who are born after the adoption of the Constitution are no longer eligible to be President, but “natural born Citizens” are. Also, Minor said and Wong Kim Ark confirmed that a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country is a “natural born Citizen.” No court has ever made the statement that a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country is a “citizen of the United States.” Given these two factors, how can a “natural born Citizen” be a subset of a “citizen of the United States?”
You said that the only other “citizens” who are not “natural born Citizens” are naturalized. What are these naturalized citizens called? What about “citizens of the United States” who are not “natural born Citizens,” what do you call them?
LMAO! Ah, poor sad hack Mario. Alas, you can’t even make up your own rebuttal and are reduced to merely plagiarizing the same words I said about you in a failed and futile attempt to use them against me.
Then again…the pattern fits. Most of your windsock silliness is nothing but cribbed arguments from that clown, Leo D’Onofrio and other deranged lunatics in the Birther community. Yes, here and there you cobble together some of your own “special” gobbledygook reasoning that is even more detached from reality then they original sources. So, yes, your “originality” in your own writing basically amounts to nothing more than using a lot of words to tell tall tales and finding new ways to string together existing whoppers.
Yet you can’t seem to hold up and defend such banal idiocy whenever you are faced with a REAL courtroom… much less at any non-Birther cult site. Too bad for you.
But hey, keep demonstrated that you’re nothing but a small and petty juvenile, thin-skinned hack who can’t present a proper and well-thought out rebuttal to save his life. It has become your modus operandi, after all…
This bizarre word salad of misconstrued Citizenship nonsense is all YOU Mario. You own this twisted tale of fiction as it has ZERO connection to either reality OR to any commentary on Citizenship that I made, whatsoever at all…
Ah Mario, I’d tell you to take a deep look in the mirror, but then again, I’ve really already told you that. Obviously, your actions clearly indicate that my own words must be better than yours, because you are so eager to simply try and steal them and use them for yourself….
Just another demonstration by you that you’ve got nothing and can’t hack it here.
G,
It really is a waste of time arguing with you. You are so full of yourself. You think you impress people with all those stupid little symbols and punctuations. You cannot reply to anything, just whining that you did not say any of it and that you have been misunderstood. You have not been misunderstood. You just cannot make any argument that stands up to close scrutiny. Then at the end when you have nothing left to say, you just say that the whole matter has already been researched. You and I have nothing else to say to each other.
*facepalm* *sheesh*
Thank you for the useful & informative explanation; I’ll admit we have difficulties in thinking of your “States” as “real” States (ie: countries). Is it the same with Canadian “Provinces”?
This seems like a good time to once again state that:
1) in re Vattel you are a liar (& other matters as well) and
2) you still refuse to deny that you are funded by a KKK-like organization to propagandize their theories.
After reading everything Mario wrote here, who can doubt my theory that he is a paid propagandist?
(And too thin-skinned for his own good, but that’s another matter.)
I concede he might be a delusional zealot blinded by his own ideology, but reading his tripe, I see it more as a self-serving and stubborn promotion of an ideological point of view he’s been paid to advance; no matter how many facts you guys bring to the table, you’ll never trump his ideology.
Either way, it is fascinating.
Yes.
That is correct and is consistent with what I’ve repeatedly said. See my post at June 28, 2012 at 1:37 am, which explicitly breaks each piece of that down and explains it, along with its follow-up at 1:38am, which reiterates this point in even further detail.
Of course they are.
There is ZERO contradiction here, Mario. Simply put, that is NOT the ONLY scenario under which someone IS a NBC. Just the most common permutation of NBC and one that is more than essentially sufficient.
Most importantly, neither of those cases REQUIRE that ALL of those conditions MUST be met in order to render someone NBC. They simply pointed out the very true and very basic point that someone under that specific scenario is most assuredly NBC.
Those cases simply did NOT address other possible and acceptable permutations of NBC, as such scenarios were NOT before the court and therefore had zero relevance to the cases at hand. That doesn’t in any way imply or mean that those other acceptable permutations do not exist.
There are simply several pathways to being BORN a Citizen (i.e. within the scope of NBC), NONE of which require NATURALIZATION, which is within the overall superset bounds of Citizenship, but outside the bounds of NBC, by its very definition.
In terms of jus soli, ALL that is required is mere BIRTH here on US soil. Parentage doesn’t even need to factor in, when that condition has been satisfied. In other words, once that “box has been checked” = “good to go” = NBC. US parentage is merely an inconsequential “bonus” in the matter.
Only IF that condition hasn’t been satisfied does the issue of parentage become a requirement (i.e. children born of one or more US citizen parents somewhere other than US soil).
Your argument here has a flawed premise.
First of all, US LAW is already fairly clear on most of those possible jus sanguinis scenarios, in terms of how they apply to citizenship and whether it is BORN citizenship or would require Naturalization. Yes, there is valid argument that jus sanguinis NBC is a Statutory conveyance, but so what, that is both beside the point and most importantly, utterly IRRELEVANT to Obama’s birth scenario.
Once you get into those various less common jus sanguinis permutations of NBC, then the issue of parentage DOES become quite relevant – BECAUSE that becomes a necessary qualifier, since the conditional pathway via birth on US soil was not met.
These laws are quite detailed on the various parentage scenarios for foreign birth and explained clearly here:
http://travel.state.gov/law/family_issues/birth/birth_593.html
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html
As you can see from them, obviously the best condition in a jus sanguinis scenario for US citizenship does take parentage into account. Here, the best scenario would obviously be two married US parents who had a residence in the US. But as the various permutations of the law explain, that is NOT the ONLY jus sanguinis permutation that grants US Citizenship at Birth and therefore, doesn’t require Naturalization of the child. Not all of the permutations of foreign birth to a US Citizen will result in US Citizenship at Birth for the child, but some do:
I seriously doubt the accuracy of your statement that “No court has ever made the statement that a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country is a “citizen of the United States.””
However, that particular argument is completely IRRELEVANT. For one thing, the ONLY difference in rights of a US Citizen at Birth and a Naturalized US Citizen is in terms of eligibility to run for President of the US. Therefore, addressing *any* of those particular Jus sanguinis permutations of the law for that purpose will remain completely UNRIPE (i.e. “untimely”, until the courts are actually confronted with such a scenario taking place. As Obama was BORN IN THE US, this whole speculative tangent has ZERO RELVELANCE, as that is NOT the NBC eligibility permutation and birth circumstance that applies to him or anyone else who ever got elected to the office of US President.
That particular tangent *did* hold relevance in terms of McCain, but other than a few cranks and Birthers and a few purely academic discussions, there was NO serious challenge or doubt that he too met the NBC criteria.
Only *IF* we are faced with a serious plausible scenario of presidential eligibility in the future, of someone without a jus soli birth circumstance, will there ever been any credible need for the courts to even broach the matter. Until then, it really is merely an academic exercise of speculative futility and a waste of time.
Correct.
Citizens.
Or if you want to be more wordy, “Citizens of the United States” or “US Citizens” or “Naturalized Citizens” or “Naturalized US Citizens” or any verbiage meaning basically that.
Under those circumstances, ALL of those terms are completely synonymous.
Remember, Naturalized citizens are merely a SUBSET of Citizen. Therefore, EVERY Naturalized Citizen *is* by definition, a Citizen.
Likewise, every Natural Born Citizen is also merely a SUBSET of Citizen. Therefore, EVERY Natural Born Citizen *is also* by definition, a Citizen. The ONLY unique right or privilege that sets those two subsets of US Citizenship apart is the eligibility to run for President of the US. That is it.
See above. You’ve just asked the exact same thing.
If you are not NBC (i.e. not BORN with US Citizenship), then you have to go through the Naturalization process in order to obtain US Citizenship. Simple as that.
That’s it, cut and run away when you can’t hack it, Mario. Don’t worry, we’re used to your little hyper-sensitive prima donna tantrums and transparently hollow retorts. It is just a sign of your inability to face up to facts and always a clear illustration of your craveness, when faced with truths that you can’t handle or BS your way out of…
Trust me, you are not missed when you are not here…as you sure don’t add value when you are.
Because you are wrong. There is no separate class of U.S. citizenship called “citizens of the United States.”
That’s it, cut and run away when you can’t hack it, Mario. Don’t worry, we’re used to your little hyper-sensitive prima donna tantrums and transparently hollow retorts. It is just a sign of your inability to face up to facts and always a clear illustration of your craveness, when faced with truths that you can’t handle or BS your way out of…
Trust me, you are not missed when you are not here…as you sure don’t add value when you are.
“No animal except a cat, or a four-legged animal, at the time of the Adoption of this Catstitution, shall be eligible to the Office of Meowsident”
By your logic, that “excludes four-legged animals in the future from being Meowsident”.
Since cats are four-legged animals, they are excluded, too. Therefore, no-one can ever be Meowsident in the future.
I wonder why birther legal “analysis” always ends up with “no-one is eligible for President anymore”. Reminds me of those birthers who claim any foreign state can effectively bar anyone from being President by declaring everyone on Earth their citizen, thus making all future US children dual citizens, thus disqualifying them according to the Vattelists.
The conspiracist part of me thinks this sounds like some devious foreign plan to effectively render the US leaderless.
Now your crank “analysis” comes up with the same result. I wonder why that is.
Well, you SHOULD have difficulty thinking of our states as “countries” because they are NOT independent entities at all. The USofA *is* only ONE nation.
There *is* only one country here – one that happens to contain 50 official subdivisions known as states as well as a number of territories under our jurisdiction.
The individual states do NOT have a right to exceed their authority NOR to nullify or leave the Union. Our Civil War settled that particular set of issues a long time ago.
Although our state structure has some inherent properties that have some analogous correlations to the powers and duties of actual “nations”, most of that is really borne out of originally coming together from 13 different separate colonies and offering an appealing way for expansionist territories to want to join the Union.
In all practical modern day purposes however, they effectively operate more and more as merely interconnected geographical subdivisions of a single nation, more along the lines of what you originally seemed to assume.
Many of the serious internal battles and true arguments of federalist powers vs. “states rights” powers have been fairly settled for a long time now…and strong central government pretty much has won out. In a modern, 21st century data-driven world, I don’t see any healthy practical scenario that would reverse that trend…
To return to the orignal issue at hand
So Mario my dear,
Do tell, EXACTLY how well did this personal opinion of yours go over in every single one of your cases..?
I mean, when you get your orutund ass handed to you, by a very young junior associate, it must have stung.
After all, as you keep telling all and sundry, you are this wunderkind Constitutional lawyer yet you have exactly and precisely a zero successful track record in every one of your sad little Birfer cases.
Not so much on “states rights” issues, but to get some sense of the oddity that can be the US, you might find interesting, Walter Mead’s book, God and Gold: Britain, America, and the Making of the Modern World.
The start of one Amazon review may help give some thinking on the book:
SoTucker counts and all the authority Gray cites doesn’t? People lkie Kent, Story and Marshall are much more influnetial than Tucker. Adn you of course leave out the parts of Tucker talking about natural born citizenship. When Tucker approvingly cites a just soli definnition, it doesn’t count. When Tukcer defines it by native birth and uses native and alien throughout his treatise by place of birth such doesn’t count. Is there one authoity you actually get right. No matter, there is a multitude of authority on the subject that is much clearer that Tucker. Much is cited by gray. However, he could have cited dozens more including Madison, Dane, Swift, White, Bouvier, Burrell, Townsend and dozens of early cases. No court will pay attention to the authorities you cite as they are either insignificant or don’t actually support you. Sadly, you still cite Marshall quoting Vattel on the subjecxt of domicle of a citizen in the time of war. You still have not learned a citation that has nothing to do with citizenship cannot be authority on citizenship, something any 1st year law student would know. A quotation of a point of tax law means the part of the quote on such point is relevant. Any part of the quote relating to bankruptcy or other law is extraneous material. I hop you are taking notes on this so you don’t continue to embarrass yourself.
There must be something wrong with you. It has been pointed out again and again here that the Constitution does not say that “Citizen of hte United states” cannot be president. Why do you keep misrepresenting what the Constitution says? Of course, that is the only way you can make your silly argument.
On ‘citizen of the United states,” you never explained how such phase doesn’t include natural born citizens yet is in statute after statute in contexts that of course include natural born citizens. Are natural born citizesns not covered under the judiciary act or naturalization acts? Of course no. You still cannot cite a single authority that agrees with you as nothing in Minor or Wong Kim Ark says “citizen of the united states” does not include natural born citizens. I have never seen anyone just make up things out of the blue and claim they are right when no one in history has ever said such is right.
And for people who can read, Wong Kim Ark makde clear that native born children of aliens are natural born. It clearly states that borht natural born subject and natural born citizen are defined by being born in the allegiance with the court goes to great lengths to tell us includes children of aliens. I know, such doesn’t count. However, modern courts and scholars have no trouble understanding what it said. For example:
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England…”
Clear as can be And, of course, the Court clearly defined natural born subject to include childern of aliens. And what is “born in the allegaince” mean?
“The fundamental principle of the common law with regard to English nationality was birth within the allegiance, also called “ligealty,” “obedience,” “faith,” or “power” of the King. The principle embraced all persons born within the King’s allegiance and subject to his protection. Such allegiance and protection were mutual — as expressed in the maxim protectio trahit subjectionem, et subjectio protectionem — and were not restricted to natural-born subjects and naturalized subjects, or to those who had taken an oath of allegiance, but were predicable of aliens in amity so long as they were within the kingdom. Children, born in England, of such aliens were therefore natural-born subjects.”
“and allegiance by birth is that which arises from being born within the dominions and under the protection of a particular sovereign. Two things usually concur to create citizenship: first, birth locally within the dominions of the sovereign, and secondly, birth within the protection and obedience, or, in other words, within the allegiance of the sovereign.”
It really isn’t that hard to understand what the Court has said. Wong Kim Ark is the only time the Court has addressed the question of childern of aliens and it is the law whether you are capable of understanding that or not.
Canadian provinces generally have more powers than US states. As I mentioned above, Quebec screens immigrants who wish to live in the province and maintains a Ministry of International Afffairs with diplomatic outposts in major world capitals. They also run their health care systems (though a part of the funding comes from the federal government). Quebec runs its own pension plan (the equivalent of US Social Security), while the other provinces let the feds do it. Much of this has to do with Quebec’s unique role as the guardian of the French language and culture. Interestingly, one area where the provinces have less power than the US states is criminal law, which is enacted by the federal government (though the provinces administer the courts). This is unlike the US where states and the federal government maintain separate criminal justice systems.
Listen up, The Constitution says “No Person except blah, blah, blah shall be eligible for the office of President”. There is absolutely NOTHING in the Constitution that forbids a cat, dog, space alien or any other non-person from being President. Not only that, such critters would be exempt from NBC, 35, 14 years residence and all that other b.s.
In fact, all any candidate needs to do is declare themselves not to be a person and the path to the White House is free of all impediments.
Lupin, hope it was helpful, I’ll defer to Scientist re: Canada. The two countries have radically different histories and development arcs. Scientist is literally much closer to that issue. I have some Canadian correspondents …. unfortunately they are as detached from politics and current events as typical Americans are. Quebec is an interesting case. So is Texas. Texas likes to pretend that it’s doing the US a favor by hanging around, and that it’s ready to walk at a moment’s notice. Even has its own power grid.
Arnold Schwarzenegger is thus a natural born ciizen, since he was born in the country of parents who were citizens of that country. Jennifer Granholm is also a natural born citizen by the same criteria. Schwarzenegger/Granholm Granhom/Schwarzenegger 2016.
If you wish to play this silly game your goose is cooked, because the US Constitution most defiinitely does not specify any particular country that you must be a natural born citizen of.
Alberta is the Texas of Canada-lots of oil, right wing (at least by Canadian standards) and home of the largest rodeo in the world-the Calgary Stampede. They occasionally make noises about separating if they don’t get their way on oil matters.
Please explain how these acts and treaties don’t include natural born citizens. Seems no one got the memo.
“And the trial of issues in fact in the Supreme Court in all actions at law against citizens of the United States shall be by jury.” Judiciary Act of 1789.
“the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens.” Naturalization Act of 1790.
“And the Creek nation do hereby relinquish all claims to any part of the territory inhabited or claimed by the citizens of the United States, in conformity with the said treaties.” Creek Treaty of 1790
“If any citizen of the united states shall, within the territory or jurisdiltion of the same, accept and exercise a commission to serve a foreign prince or state in war, by land or sea, the person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor…” Act of 1794
“That nothing in this act shall be construed to prevent any trade or intercourse with Indians living on lands surrounded by settlements of the citizens of the United States, and being within the ordinary jurisdiction of any of the individual states.” Indian Act of 1796
“And in consequence of the stipulation’s contained in the fourth article, his Catholic Majesty will permit the citizens of the United States for the space of three years from this time, to deposit their merchant dises and effects in the port of New-Orleans,” Treaty with Spain of 1795
“and the children of citizens of the United States born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Naturalization Act of 1795
“Should the cruiser of Algiers capture any vessel, having citizens of the United States of North-America on board, they having papers ta prove they are really so, they and their property shall be immediately discharged.” Treaty with Algiers of 1796
“In like manner the citizens of the United States of America may frequent all the coasts and countries of his Majesty the King of Prussia, and reside and trade there, in all sorts of produce, manufactures and merchandise…” Treaty with Prussia of 1799.
“It shall be free for the citizens of the United States to carry on what commerce they please in the kingdom of Tunis, without any opposition.” Treaty with Tunis of 1799.
“The Cherokee nation agree, that the Kentucky road, running between the Cumberland mountain and the Cumberland river, where the same shall pass through the Indian land, shall bean open and free road for the use of the citizens of the United States in the like manner as the road from Southwest point to Cumberland river.” Cherokee Treaty of 1799.
” That if any citizen or citizens of the United States shall, without the limits of the same, fit out and arm, or attempt to fit out and arm, or procure to be fitted out and armed, or shall knowingly aid or be concerned in the furnishing, fitting out, or arming any private ship or vessel of war, with intent that such ship or vessel shall be employed to cruise or commit hostilities upon the subjects, citizens, or property of any prince or state with whom the United States are at peace, or upon the citizens of the United States, or their property, or shall take the command, or enter on board of any such ship or vessel for the intent aforesaid, or shall purchase an interest in any vessel so fitted out and armed, with a view to share in the profits thereof, such person or persons so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be adjudged guilty of a high misdemeanor, and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars, and imprisonment not exceeding ten years.” Privateering Act of 1797.
“If any citizen or citizens of the united states shall, without the limits of the same, arm, or attempt to fit out and are, or procure to be fitted out and armed, or shall knowingly aid ..” Act of 1796
“If any person, being a citizen of the united states, whether he be actually resident, or abiding within the united states, or in any foreign country, shall, without the permission or authority of the government of the united states, directly or indirectly, commence, or carry on, any verbal or written correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government….’ Act of 1799
“That from and after the termination of the war in which the United States are now engaged with Great Britain, it shall not be lawful to employ, on board of any public or private vessels of the United States, any person or persons except citizens of the United States, or persons of color, natives of the United States.” Act of 1813
“That if any citizen or citizens of the United States shall contrary to the true intent and meaning or this act, take on board, receive or transport any such persons, as above described in this act…” Slave Trade Act of 1794.
Where did that come from? Gosh, the only mention of Tucker in the thread is from …. Mario. Cherrypicking an argument to use as a projected strawman, an argument shot down in an attempt to cover a getaway. Congrats on shooting your clay pigeon…on the ground. Try to miss your foot next time.
Tucker’s note regarding eligibility for selection as a privy counselor is of interest:
Sounds familiar. 😉
There is, however, a major article attacking Apuzzo’s use of Tucker at Woodman’s site.
If I were to argue this doesn’t clearly say whether “may be born beyond Sea…” refers to the children or the parents, I would have a 10,000 times better case than Mario and his Jedi Paulyesque musings about “citizen with a capital C” or “natural born citizens aren’t citizens”.
what does an old hat have to do with the pakistan travel ban?
we’ll give you a chance – try again.
G
“LMAO! Ah, poor sad hack G. Alas, you can’t even make up your own rebuttal and are reduced to merely plagiarizing the same words from [your Obot think tank].
Then again…the pattern fits. Most of your windsock silliness is nothing but cribbed arguments from [that Obot think tank and Obot sites] and other deranged lunatics in the [Obot community]. Yes, here and there you cobble together some of your own “special” gobbledygook reasoning that is even more detached from reality then they original sources. So, yes, your “originality” in your own writing basically amounts to nothing more than using a lot of words to tell tall tales and finding new ways to string together existing whoppers.
Yet you can’t seem to hold up and defend such banal idiocy whenever you are faced with a REAL adversary… much less at any [Birther] site. Too bad for you.
But hey, keep demonstrating that you’re nothing but a small and petty juvenile, thin-skinned hack who can’t present a proper and well-thought out rebuttal to save his life. It has become your modus operandi, after all.”G.
Thanks for the tip! Pretty thorough burn-down by Woodman, and I see Mario has been kicking the bricks over there at the same time he test his foot on the bricks over here. The rule holds true, birthers lie about everything they read.
G,
You said: “Those cases simply did NOT address other possible and acceptable permutations of NBC, as such scenarios were NOT before the court and therefore had zero relevance to the cases at hand. That doesn’t in any way imply or mean that those other acceptable permutations do not exist. There are simply several pathways to being BORN a Citizen (i.e. within the scope of NBC), NONE of which require NATURALIZATION, which is within the overall superset bounds of Citizenship, but outside the bounds of NBC, by its very definition.
In terms of jus soli, ALL that is required is mere BIRTH here on US soil. Parentage doesn’t even need to factor in, when that condition has been satisfied. In other words, once that “box has been checked” = “good to go” = NBC. US parentage is merely an inconsequential “bonus” in the matter.
Only IF that condition hasn’t been satisfied does the issue of parentage become a requirement (i.e. children born of one or more US citizen parents somewhere other than US soil).”
**************
Only a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be President. A “citizen of the United States” is not so eligible.
You are conflating a “citizen of the United States” with a “natural born Citizen.”
Hence, all your talk about how to make a “citizen of the United States” with all his or her “permutations” and “scenarios” goes to making a “citizen of the United States,” not a “natural born Citizen.”
It is constitutional error to mistake a “citizen of the United States” and it definition for a “natural born Citizen.”
Mario gets another “F”. He cannot find a single article written after Wong Kim Ark in 1898 that said “They found the Chinese fellow was a citizen but he cannot run for president because he is only a ‘Citizen of the Untied States'”
He can’t find even one? How embarrassing. So no one figured out Wong Kim Ark for 214 years until Mario the DUI attorney came along? No one. How astonishingly stupid would you have to be to believe that?
Guess what folks? Even Mario didn’t say that in his complaint in the Kerchner v Obama case. As a matter of fact he never even cited Minor v Happersett, you know the case that Mario said defined the term natural-born citizen?. Nope not once in 87 pages. But you say “of course he explained Wong Kim Ark because that would be important wouldn’t it” ? Nope he never cited it once. ,He barely mentioned the fictional two parent citizen theory in his complaint in New Jersey Federal Court. It was an afterthought buried towards the end of the complaint.
Again: thank you all for the very enlightening insight into the peculiarities of your “States”. It only makes Scalias’s opinion even more shocking.
G,
You said: “Yes, there is valid argument that jus sanguinis NBC is a Statutory conveyance, but so what, that is both beside the point and most importantly, utterly IRRELEVANT to Obama’s birth scenario.”
It is not irrelevant. On the contrary, it is highly relevant. It shows that your “born Citizen” definition of a “natural born Citizen” is constitutionally flawed. Indeed, we can have “born Citizens” who are not “natural born Citizens.”
Where is there a court decision to that effect? It is an incontrovertible FACT that the person who wins the election is the President. You cannot cite me an example where that was not the case.
How many times does Mario’s argument have to lose in court before he accepts it?
No, you are just wrong. There is no separate class called “citizen of the United States.” The confusion you make is to confuse a category with its parts. No court is going to agree with you.
G,
Your position is that all members of the United States are “citizens,” and that those “citizens” are either “natural born Citizens” or “naturalized citizens.”
What does the Constitution and Acts of Congress call those “naturalized citizens?”
The US Constitution does explain that new states can be added, but doesn’t really say that much about the disposition of territory owned by the United States but not yet admitted as a state.
I remember hearing about how most French overseas territories such as Guadeloupe, Martinique, and Tahiti were considered full parts of France with all citizens of territory having full rights as if they were born on the mainland. That was very different than what we know, where some overseas territories have limited rights. Someone living in Puerto Rico can’t even vote in the general election for US President. There are questions as to whether someone born in an overseas US territory such as Puerto Rico, Guam, or the US Virgin Islands, although the Congressional Research Service article often cited here claims that they most likely would be.
The US Virgin Islands is an interesting place. There are some famous Americans born there. If they ever had political aspirations to be President, they might even stand a chance of getting some traction. The actor Kelsey Grammer was born there, as was the basketball player Tim Duncan. I could see Grammer thinking of running for office in the US, and perhaps even President.
Come on Mario…now you’re just getting plain boring.
A couple of years ago I managed to locate on the net a copy of Confederate Brig. General George Gordon’s PRESCRIPT which is in effect the Klan dogma.
Some of it deals with the issue of citizenship; if I recall correctly the notion of “native born” citizenship being equated with being born of TWO white christian parents finds its root there.
We are still waiting for you to cite a single authority saying “citizen of the United States” doesn’t include natural born citizens. You should be embarrassed that you can’t. I notice how you can’t explain all the statutes that use “citizen of the United States” as there is no rationale answer you can provide. But you will simply never admit you are wrong.
And from Wong Kim Ark:
“In the early case of The Charming Betsy, (1804) it appears to have been assumed by this court that all persons born in the United States were citizens of the United States, Chief Justice Marshall saying:
Whether a person born within the United States, or becoming a citizen according to the established laws of the country, can divest himself absolutely of that character otherwise than in such manner as may be prescribed by law is a question which it is not necessary at present to decide.”
Gee, I guess he didn’t get the memo on what a “citizen of the United States” was.
The Magic M,
The first fallacy in your argument is your failure to understand that the Founders and Framers created two separate and distinct classes of “citizens,” the “natural born Citizens” and the “Citizens of the United States.” So “natural born Citizens” (your cats) are not subsumed into “Citizens of the United States” (your four-legged creatures). So, when I say that the Founders and Framers said in the future no more “Citizens of the United States” for the Office of President, my position does not produce the result that you allege it produces which you say is that they would have also simultaneously prohibited the “natural born Citizens” from presidential eligibility.
The second fallacy in your argument is that it denies the simple fact that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that “Citizens of the United States” shall be eligible for President only if they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution. So clearly, anyone born after the adoption of the Constitution who has the status of a “citizen of the United States” and does not have the status of a “natural born Citizen” is excluded by Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 from being eligible to be President.
Mario, you can keep ignoring it, but no court has ever prevented the winner of the election from taking and holding office. Not ever. This sticks in your craw, I know. And your client Purpura not only lost his stupid birther case, but his challenge to the ACA is officially dead on any grounds, since the law was upheld with Roberts voting to do so.
This is a very, very, very bad day for you..
We have Mario’s stupidity summarised very neatly by himself. Let’s ignore the fact that the members of the United States are actually the states, not individual people. We can’t expect Mario to understand that sort of gross distinction.
Addressing the substantive point, no Mario, no, no, no, no, no.
Every person in the world is either a citizen of the United States or he/she is not. Most are not. There are not two types of citizen, only an ignorant moron thinks that. Oh, you do?
A person can become a citizen in several ways. The most obvious and common way is simply by being born in the territory of the USA. Less commonly babies born outside the USA to parents who are citizens can be citizens, subject to certain additional criteria.
Those people who met the criteria for citizenship when they drew their first breath are natural born citizens.
Those who are not citizens at birth, but acquire it later through applying for and being granted naturalization, are also citizens, but not natural born, native born or born citizens.
But they are exactly the same type of citizen. There are no types of citizen.
The only possible complication is when rules of citizenship are revised with retrospective effect during a person’s lifetime, so they were born in a territory that was not part of the USA, but which later became a part. Whether such a person would be deemed “natural born” or not is not a question that I know the answer to, nor do I care about such logic-chopping.
Scream all you want, act childish, stupid and petulant, but listen to the judges Mario: they all agree with this version, the correct version. Not one, not a single one, no judge agrees with your ridiculous perverted mis-readings. It’s only idiot birthers and the other clowns.
If judges repeatedly agree amongst themselves, then their interpretation of the law is de facto the definition of the law. It does not matter that you come up with silly arguments that say otherwise, the law is not what you say it is.
So much wrong. Error on mistake on blunder on failure on catechresis on solipsism… topped off with a heady sauce of delusion.
Again Mario,
You are reduced to merely stealing what I already said about you and replacing a few words, because you don’t have any REAL rebuttal and are nothing but a child throwing a tantrum.
Sorry, while projection may be the only “weapon” that pathetic little men with tunnelvision worldviews like you are capable of using, it simply amounts to nothing but more endless failure for you when you attempt such.
As with all your hollow words and BS, none of what you say holds up to the light of day when you try to spew it…
Sam the Centipide,
We have Sam the Centipede’s stupidity summarised very neatly by himself. Let’s ignore the fact that Article II distinguished between a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States.” We can’t expect Sammy to understand that sort of gross distinction.
Addressing the substantive point, no Sammy, no, no, no, no, no.
Every person in the world is either a U.S. citizen or he/she is not. Most are not. There are “natural born Citizens” and “citizens of the United States,” only an ignorant moron thinks otherwise. Oh, you do?
A person can become a “citizen” in several ways. The most obvious and common way is simply by being born in the territory of the USA. Less commonly babies born outside the USA to parents who are “citizens” can be “citizens,” subject to certain additional criteria.
Those people who met the criteria for citizenship when they drew their first breath are either “natural born Citizen” or “citizens of the United States.”
Those who are not “citizens” at birth, but acquire it later through applying for and being granted naturalization, are also “citizens of the United States,” but not natural born, native born or born citizens.
Scream all you want, act childish, stupid and petulant, but listen to the reason and logic, Sammy. It points to this version, the correct version. Not one, not a single one, no reasonale person agrees with your ridiculous perverted mis-readings. It’s only Obots.
If reasonable people repeatedly agree amongst themselves, then their interpretation of the law is de facto the definition of the law. It does not matter that you come up with silly arguments that say otherwise, the law is not what you say it is.
So much wrong. Error on mistake on blunder on failure on catechresis on solipsism… topped off with a heady sauce of delusion.
The words of Sam the Centipide as appropriately edited.
The trouble with reading The Putz on his blog, Woodman’s blog, and here, is that I can’t remember exactly where I read the silliest mis-reading that Mario made. Does anyone else remember this one? Mario cited a reference which said something like “the citizen or citizens of the United States shall…” and Mario declared that they were talking about two sets of people. There was “the citizen” and there were “citizens of the United States.” According to him, two mutually exclusive sets of people. With that level of reading comprehension, how can we expect The Putz to understand *anything* he reads?
I guess that makes all those judges that laugh you out of the court ignornat morons as well. So our options are a third rate DUI attorney is right, or every judge and constitutional scholar is right…..hmmmmm….I wonder which it is.
Please, Mario, by all means….keep making a bigger @ss of yourself. It really is quite amusing. Perhaps next time you have the opportunity to present your deep thoughts to a judge you should just cut to the chase and clamp your hands over your ears and stamp your feet while shouting, “I’m right and everyone else is wrong!” It would probably be as equally effective as you dumping your 100 page missives on the court, and certainly far more entertaining.
Correct. As applicable to eligibility today, that *is* the only pathway that remains valid within that Constitutional Clause. I have said exactly that all along.
How stuck on stupid can you be?
As repeatedly told to you, “natural born citizens” are merely a SUBSET of “citizen of the United States”.
Therefore, your statement is inherently FALSE and doesn’t make any sense.
Do you really have no basic grasp of set theory and how groupings and subgroupings work???
Or are you simply just that poor at being both a lawyer and a pathological liar, that your false arguments of weak convoluted BS would easily be picked apart by a room of first graders…
NO. Unless “conflating” is another basic English term that you don’t know how to use right or understand what it means. Because I have never “conflated” the two.
Let’s type real slow for you since you are so dense:
As I’ve said repeatedly, BOTH “natural born Citizens” and “naturalized Citizens” ARE “citizens of the United States”. They are the two SUBSETS of “citizens of the United States”
Therefore:
ALL “naturalized Citizens” ARE “citizens“of the United States” = TRUE.
ALL “natural born Citizens” ARE “citizens of the United States” = TRUE.
When something is merely SUBSET of a larger SET, the reverse cannot hold true, therefore:
ALL “citizens of the United States” ARE “naturalized Citizens” = FALSE.
ALL “citizens of the United States” ARE “natural born Citizens” = FALSE.
The reason those last two statements are FALSE is because ALL “citizens of the United States” requires the combination of BOTH of those two options in order to be TRUE.
As alone, each of those two options only represent a PORTION of the WHOLE, the other way to make those last two statements TRUE is to replace ALL with SOME:
SOME “citizens of the United States” ARE “naturalized Citizens” = TRUE.
SOME “citizens of the United States” ARE “natural born Citizens” = TRUE.
As usual, you are wrong again. Because you can’t grasp the basic concepts at play here, you’re reduced to drawing false conclusions.
Every statement I’ve said on the topic holds true and holds up. You are just too inept and/or dishonest to comprehend it. You only make yourself look like a fool here.
The only one making the “constitutional errors” here is you. Everyone else here is capable of reading basic English grammar properly and applying basic logic and set theory to understand the principles at play.
Only you are continuing to spin in a circle of stupidity…
Speaking as an outsider, this — purely as an intellectual construction — strikes me as the epitome of ludicrousness. What would that “super-class” of NBC be comprised of? Where were they throughout history? Where are they today? Do they identify each other with a secret handshake?
I can see why a KKK mouthpiece like Mario might want to lobby to create such a new super-class of citizens to prevent the riffraff from becoming too uppity, but to argue that that super-class has been with you since the start???
Are you clinically insane, drunk, or both?
They are called people who have switched to a totally organic diet.
I thought they had been converted to fertilizer. Soylent Green … immigrants as a food source. Regressives would say they weren’t fit to eat.
@Sam the Centipede – My favorite is “Sam the Sham and The Pharaohs.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_the_Sham
Hmm …. appropriating content w/o making the alterations plain ….. very poor form, very dishonest.
I spoke of an extra measure of grace …. but really Mario, look over this thread. Is this the best representation you can make for your ideas?
Well, he would have been a better fit on the 1870-era SCOTUS. He’s made plenty of enemies. Progressives call for his impeachment from time to time. But even here, referencing Vattel, he fits in with a long-running theme in our history, of limiting the federal government in every way possible.
Why don’t the Reds just come out and demand a return to the Articles of Confederation? That’s essentially what our far right is advocating.
… and then they would advocate a return to the colonial charters …
Mario, I want you to know that I have defended you in conversations, while sitting on a bar stool.
The other night, someone said, “That Mario Apuzzo is not fit to live with pigs.”
I stuck up for you. I said you were.
The semiliterate, lying douche nozzle and his bigoted sycophants deserve nothing more than ridicule and eventual obscurity.
No it isn’t. It does no such thing. The only problem here is that you are incapable of grasping basic logic and can’t seem to comprehend or restate what anyone has said to you properly. Therefore, the only thing that is flawed is your understanding of these things and the conversation at hand. Thus, you come to such illogical and nonsensical conclusions, which fail to stand up under any scrutiny.
NO, you can’t. Not in how those terms are applied within the SCOPE of the relevant issue at hand.
There is ZERO legal evidence within US law, that any statutory “born Citizen” classification would be treated as anything other than being a “natural born Citizen”. In fact, to do so would run contrary to the 14th Amendment, which clearly tells us that there are TWO AND ONLY TWO pathways to US Citizenship: Born *and* Naturalized.
Therefore, “born” and “natural born” are EQUAL in the eyes of US law, regardless of whether one has qualified as a “born citizen” by virtue of birth here on US soil (jus soli), or by virtue of being born to a US citizen abroad and meeting the aforementioned jus sanguinis “born citizen” criteria already available under existing US law. They are *ALL* NBC, as their US Citizenship is granted to them by mere virtue of them being born. NO naturalization process required.
However, as I correctly pointed out, you are wasting time going down that whole path of argument as it simply has ZERO relevance to the issue of contesting Barack Obama’s eligibility for President. He was BORN on US SOIL. Therefore, his birth scenario is crystal clear.
There is NO statute issue at play in that case at all, so talking about fictional “what if” scenarios in regards to foreign birth is just an irrelevant side tangent that has no applicability to the matter before the courts and would NOT be ripe to bring before them at all UNTIL you are actually faced with a serious presidential candidate whose birth circumstances fall under such a jus sanguinis scenario.
Agreed. Well said. Thank you for stating it so succinctly.
Which is why no court has agreed with him and never will…
Citizens. *duh*
When you decide you’re superior, you have to find your superiority somewhere … even if that means making it up. Calling yourselve “Aryan” or some other such silly nonsense.
As for me, I’ll “sieg heil” right in der Fuehrer’s face. 😉
I was referring back to my comment above …. but even from the perspective of getting all of him on the record he’s willing to give away, he is awfully tedious, tiresome, and dull.
WRONG again Mario. There is NO fallacy in his argument.
You’ve left out the quantifying clause that they stated in regards to said “Citizens of the United States”:
“or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution ”
NOTHING in the Constitution states NOR implies that “natural born Citizens” are not “Citizens of the United States”.
So give it up, Mario. Your terminal case of being “stuck on stupid” doesn’t fly here NOR in our legal system. You are merely adrift repeating the same disproven fallacy over and over again to no avail…
Excellent post. Well stated and correct. All of it! KUDOS.
Wouldn’t it be a hoot to see his comments here and at Woodman’s blog entered into the next court record for the judge to enjoy?
His sycophant’s comments about the corruption of judges and the punishment these judges deserve would also be enlightening for the court.
I can see how The Putz got his DUI client life without parole:
“Your Honor, there’s alcohol and there’s ethanol. My client drank a beverage containing ethanol, therefore he didn’t drink alcohol and so he wasn’t under the influence of alcohol, only an ignorant moron thinks otherwise. Oh, you do?”
G,
Maybe you can use some of that stupid punctuation and symbols to answer this:
“3. Civil rights, taken in a strict and confined sense, as contradistinguished from natural and social rights, are such as appertain to a man as a citizen or subject, of this, or that, particular state or country; in his private and individual capacity as a free agent, and member of the body politic or state, in respect to the state or body politic; and contradistinguished from such as might be due to him as a magistrate, legislator, judge, or other public agent, character, or functionary. The right of electing, and being elected to, any public office or trust, may be considered as among the most important of these rights. These civil rights may be inherited, or acquired, in the United States: they are acquired by a foreigner who is naturalized; they are inherited by all whose parents, at the time of their birth, were citizens.
***
Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.”
St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries (1803) http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm .
Tucker explains that civil rights belonged only to a “citizen.” The right of being elected to public office was one of the most important of these rights. The right to be elected President was included in these civil rights. Anyone who was naturalized was forever incapable of being chosen to the office of President.
Civil rights were either acquired or inherited. That means that there were only two ways that a person could come to possess such rights. They were acquired by a foreigner upon being naturalized or inherited by all those who were born to “citizen” parents. This means that Tucker divided “citizens” into those who were born to “citizen” parents and those who were not. The former would be “natural born” and the latter naturalized. If we apply what Tucker said to the civil right to be elected president, we can see that one could not acquire such a right by naturalization, for a naturalized citizen was forever barred from being President. So, the only other way one could obtain the civil right to be elected President was through the only other way to obtain such a civil right. That was by inheriting the right by being born to “citizen” parents.
We know from the Constitution that, for those born after its adoption, only a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be President. Hence, if follows a fortiori from Tucker’s explanation that, since the Constitution informs that a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be elected President, a “natural born Citizen” can only be a child born to “citizen” parents. Tucker explains that the only exception to this rule was for those who were naturalized before the adoption of the Constitution. These would have been children who were not born to “citizen” parents, but who were nevertheless allowed to be chosen to be President. We know that these persons were who Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 calls “Citizens of the United States,” and who it grandfathered to be eligible to be President, but who Tucker explains, given that they were born after the adoption of the Constitution and were not born to “citizen” parents, were forever barred from being chosen to the office of President.
Obama was not born to “citizen” parents. He therefore at birth could not have inherited the civil right to be elected President. He may be a “citizen of the United States,” if born in Hawaii, which allowed him to acquire his civil rights just as any other naturalized citizen, but he cannot be a “natural born Citizen” who inherits his civil rights by being born to “citizen” parents.
G,
You have no evidence that the Fourteenth Amendment repealed or amended the Article II “natural born Citizen” clause.
Give it up, G.
Misha,
You said: “Mario, I want you to know that I have defended you in conversations, while sitting on a bar stool.
The other night, someone said, “That Mario Apuzzo is not fit to live with pigs.”
I stuck up for you. I said you were.”
Thanks for doing that. I knew you would come through. After all, you should know.
Call me when you’ve convinced any real lawperson (a judge, a Yale professor or likewise) of your outlandish reinterpretation of US citizenship.
It’s one thing to make a claim; it’s a whole different story to back it up.
And it never ceases to amaze me to what lenghts some people will go to make “A is B” instead mean “A is not B” despite the clear meaning of basic English.
You might just as well claim that “the Age of thirty-five Years” isn’t talking about 35 years of age but something like “the Age of Aquarius”.
Let’s try an exercise: Let’s assume your interpretation is correct. Assume further you were a Founder and wanted to create a wording in the Constitution that reflects my standpoint of A2S1C5 (that NBC’s are a subset of “citizens of the United States”).
How would they have written it in your opinion?
Note that it’s not allowed to state the obvious (such as “the class of natural born citizens is a subset of…”) because the Founders didn’t state “your obvious” here either (i.e. they didn’t write “natural born citizens and citizens of the US are mutually exclusive”).
If I’m correct, you will have to come up with a very contrived formulation for such a simple thing…
Sorry Mario, but your little selective quote from Tucker doesn’t really help you at all.
You are simply stuck on stupid and too focused on your myopic and idiotic ideas to grasp what he actually said and what he *didn’t* say in that quote.
Tucker’s overall point is CONSISTENT with what all of us have been telling you all along – two pathways to US Citizenship – Naturalization (aquired) or being born with it (inherited).
The US of course recognizes inherited citizenship for its citizens. Hence, why there are ALSO jus sanguinis NBCs, who are not born here, but are US NBC by virtue of parentage. Those citizens did NOT acquire their citizenship via Naturalization – they are born with it via that inheritence.
As your selective quote mining in NO way addresses the circumstances of jus soli, which is the most COMMON method of obtaining citizenship at birth, you’ve failed to provide anything that actually contradicts any points I or others here have made.
So as usual, you wasted a bunch of time coming up with nothing of value to you.
You have cited NOTHING that precludes NBC via jus soli in the US. Those very common and typical scenarios happen here every single day and those folks are NOT naturalized. Therefore, as there are ONLY two types of citizens (which Tucker confirms), they are Born Citizens (NBC).
Therefore you have NOT made any case at all which supports that ONLY “2 citizen parents” can provide NBC status at all…
But hey, keep flailing away in your failings…
As usual, you are missing the forest for the trees, because you lack basic reading comprehension.
Courts work on precedent. 2 of 44 Presidents have had non-citizen fathers. One is a precedent; 2 is an overwhelming, insurmountable precedent. It is therefore indisputable fact that Presidents don’t need a citizen father. Now, this may mean 1 of 2 things: 1. Those with 1 citizen parent born in the US are natural born citiizens. or 2. You don’t have to be a natural born citizen to be President (the 12th Amendment overrides Article II or Article II is not and never was enforcable law). Eiither way, the result is clear-you don’t need 2 citizen parents.
G,
Regarding Tucker, you just continue to beg the question.
You do not address Tucker’s quote.
You do not even attempt to address Tucker’s statement that the right to be elected president belonged only to children born to “citizens.”
You just make up your own rationale that supports your position without citing any authority.
What I say is “quote mining” and what you say is the word of God.
Simply stated, you are a complete fail. May I also add that you fail with pomposity just like the rest of your coterie.
Wow, you really are a broken record of stuck on stupid, aren’t you Mario?
Again, YOU are the one making this stupid argument, not me. I already explicitly told you that the 14th Amendment did NOT do either of those things that only YOU keep claiming:
So what is YOUR explanation for repeating this same error you were already corrected on yesterday, Mario?
Is your puny pea-brain simply too small to grasp or retain being told this for even a single day? Or are you just drunk and in meltdown mode again?? Or are you having entirely separate conversations with the voices in your head and unable to distinguish between them and what myself or anyone else here has ACTUALLY already clearly stated on a topic???
Seriously, your tired retread of utterly inept responses leave me with few other viable speculative options to explain your behavior…
Mario is really ratcheting up his competition with Orly at being the worst lawyer in the world.
What authority is Tucker?
I’ll adress it. Tucker didn’t say that. And if you want to say he did, then he was wrong. He was not the Pope and was not infallible.
2 Presidents have had non-citizen parents. That proves it is hardly impossible. You’re like a guy claiming Everest can’t be climbed when hundreds of people have done it.
So, let me ask you this question…
You keep on stating that “Citizen of the United States” and “Natural Born Citizen” are seperate and distinct classes, and there is no overlap.
Article I of the Constitution clearly states this: “No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.”
It also states this: “No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.”
So, does this mean that a Natural Born Citizen is not eligible to be elected to the House, or the Senate, since it is a “seperate and distinct class”. The Senate also requires people to be “a Citizen of the United States”.
The following Presidents who were born after the constitution served in Congress: Barack Obama, George H.W. Bush, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, John Kennedy, Harry Truman, Warren Harding, Benjamin Harrison, James Garfield, Rutherford Hayes, Andrew Johnson, Abraham Lincoln, James Buchanan, Franklin Pierce, Millard Fillmore, James Polk, and John Tyler.
So, by serving in Congress, they were required to be “Citizen of the United States” and by serving as President they were required to be “natural born Citizen”. It’s obvious that people can be both a natural born Citizen, and a Citizen of the United States. I therefore submit to you that these are not “distinct” classes.
Do you engage in this repartee in court?
To His Haughty Excellency,
Regarding the Fourteenth Amendment, you said:
“It does NOT repeal nor amend the NBC clause. It merely clarifies that the superset of Citizenship only comes in two basic flavors:
EITHER:
Born (which Natural Born equates to)
OR
Naturalized.”
Correct almost. And what it defines is a “citizen of the United States” (what you incorrectly call a “superset of Citizenship” which under Article II is not even eligible to be president today), not an Article II “natural born Citizen.” After all you did concede that the Fourteenth Amendment did not repeal or amend the NBC clause.
I am still waiting for you to really address what Tucker said.
Give it up, G.
Dunstvangeet,
Regarding your argument about Article I allowing a “Citizen of the United States” to be a member of Congress which you contend proves that I am wrong in saying that future “Citizens of the United States” are not eligible to be President because “natural born Citizens” would be precluded from being eligible for Congress, that “Citizen of the United States” status, like the status of being 25 or 30 years old, is only a minimum to be satisfied. It would be pretty ridiculous to argue that the Framers required someone to be only 25 or 30 years old to be eligible for the House and Senate, respectively. Like the clause does not say that 50-year-olds are also eligible, it does not say that “natural born Citizens” are also eligible. It does not say it because there was no need to say it. It was self evident from the clause itself.
No Mario, the only one “begging questions” here is you. We are simply wasting our time responding to your repetitive inanity. Cheap entertainment for us, sure.
In as much as you actually presented a question, I gave you a response, citing his quote and my thoughts on it. You simply don’t like my answer, so you are merely throwing another one of your typical tantrums.
Now that is absurd. Why would I address something that Tucker did NOT say? What you just said is a statement YOU have just made up right now and is NOT the wording from anything of Tucker that you cited.
Well, now you’ve crumbled back down to mere invective projection yet again. I guess that’s all you’ve really got in your sham bag of tricks anyways…
No one here has invoked “God” except YOU right now… but hey, keep having those “imagined” conversations with the voices in your head and pretending they are us.
YOU are the one who is coming here and wasting your time endlessly repeating the same nonsense that NO ONE else here buys from you. THAT is the definition of failing. There have been no other voices here disagreeing with anything I’ve stated, except you. And EVERYONE here disagrees with you.
More importantly, and in the ONLY arena that actually matters, the COURTS have CONSISTENTLY disagreed with YOU and your “coterie”. As has the Electoral College, every Secretary of State, and Congress – ALL of which had ZERO problem with making Obama the CURRENT President of the US. So there is NO “fail” on OUR side here. ALL actual authorities in the matter have consistently ruled in agreement with us and in our favor. And the best part about it is that NONE of us have to lift a finger or utter a word for that to remain true day after day after day! Every day, Obama is STILL President and is STILL up for re-election. So every day that starts is another day where FAIL is staring YOU in the face.
So keep wasting your time, Mario. With every passing day and every word you utter, you simply prove to the world what an utter joke and failure you are.
Well thanks Mario, you continue doing a wonderful job continuing to prove the President is eligible. They did not say natural-born citizen is born citizen because it was self-evident to them that it was precisely what they meant. Isn’t that wonderful that through all your long-winded writings and court appearances you continue to be a wonderful advocate for the President! 😀
G,
You cannot mask from me your inability to make a legal argument. You simply do not have the depth of knowleged or training. You just throw a lot of BS talk around and make it sound fancy, especially with those silly symbols.
So says the man who has won exactly how many cases making these arguments?
Never, never, never underestimate de birf. Just when you think the irony can get no thicker, the stupid can get no deeper, *BOOM*
Here the birther troll, who makes a career of rambling on at length as if length imparted legitimacy, criticizing, of all thing, formatting. As if clarity and organization were the twin arch enemies of efficient communication! LOL!
As a typographer, I must be Mario’s idea of the Great Satan.
Mario, your spiels could benefit greatly from some “silly symbols”. It wouldn’t improve straighten out the flaws, lies, or distortions, but at least they’d be easier to read.
Well … maybe. You could use an editor in addition to the typesetter.
Hey, you’ve *finally* quoted what I actually said! You’re making progress..
Yes. Of course it does. Why would it define a citizen of any other country, except the US? This *is* an Amendment to US law, after all.
Now you’ve gone back off the rails into nonsense land again. Again, you are just being stuck on stupid here… You are simply wrong, as I’ve already addressed at length. Nobody else here is incapable of grasping this, except you. Nobody here agrees with you Mario, sorry. More importantly, the courts do not support you either.
One cannot concede a point that one NEVER made in the first place. Again, you seem to be having arguments with voices in your head, which have ZERO connection to anything I’ve actually said. Only YOU keep blathering about “repeal or amend” in regards to the 14th Amendment. I have NEVER contended that it ever did, so there is nothing that I’ve “conceded” at all. I merely agree that it did not do either of those things. Really Mario, how did you get this far in life with such a poor grasp of the English language and how to use it properly?
Why? You never did. You gave a citation and claimed to have a question and then rambled on. I gave a response, citing from your own quote of Tucker, in response to the context of his actual quote; not your false conclusions. You simply can’t deal with the fact that I reject your conclusions and have clearly stated such. Yet you have nothing to come back with to back up your points except to stomp your feet and throw a fit.
LMAO! You keep saying this, as if it has any meaning, merely because you sling it out there. I mean really, what is there for me to “give up” here, Mario? You seem to fail to grasp even such basic concepts of how cause and effect work and are in play here. There is nothing for me to “give up” as I am not the one pursing some futile quixotic cause detached from reality. YOU are the one here trying to convince courts to remove a sitting president or bar him from being re-elected. YOU are the one coming here and initiating an argument.
You open your big mouth and I merely respond to smack down your lies and inanity. Simple cause and effect at work here. I really don’t have to do much in the equation at all. Every time you speak, you make yourself look stupid, whether I bother to point it out or not. Every day I wake up, Obama is President, which is just fine by me. I don’t have to do a single thing for that to be reality. YOU however have this bizarre fixation with trying to re-write history and change reality…and it simply isn’t working out for you. YOU are the one bringing court cases AND LOSING every one of them. YOU are the one coming here to try to peddle your silly cr@p notions and NOT making any headway NOR gaining any support. YOU are the one who keeps “threatening” to end discussion and leave. I don’t care if you post here or not. If and when you do, I always reserve the right to respond. When you don’t, you are certainly not missed. Simple as that.
So what exactly do you want me to “give up” Mario? If you want me to stop pointing out how ridiculous you are, then all you have to do is stop being ridiculous in the first place. Cause and effect. Simple as that.
LOL! That is the same reaction I had to reading that response from him as well… 😉
Except that’s not what the Constitution says. It says in order to qualify for rep/senate, once must have attained the age of 25/35 and been a citizen of the United States for 7 years. Someone who is 50 has attained the age of 25. A person who is a natural born citizen has never been a naturalized citizen. Not even for a single day. You’re putting words into the Constitution that just aren’t there.
And go back to the 14th Amendment….which says all persons born or naturalized in the US are citizens of the United States. By your definition, that would leave only people born abroad to two citizen parents, as natural born citizens. More nonsesne….unless, of course, citizens of the United States includes both Natrualized and Natural born citizens, like everyone besides Mario Apuzzo and his merry band of nutters seem to think.
LOL! Oh Mario, you keep getting more entertaining in your frothing inanity!
I’ve never claimed to be a lawyer, nor do I have to make a “legal” argument here. I’ve been making a LOGICAL one. Which is obviously a concept that is beyond your grasp. So again, you are reduced to merely throwing an imaginary fit towards something that never occurred in the first place. I’m not trying to waste courts’ time bringing frivolous cases either.
The only one full of endless BS here is *you* Mario. Someone who is supposed to BE an actual lawyer….and yet who keep LOSING and looking like an utter emasculated buffoon every time he actually tries to peddle this nonsense in front of a REAL court.
So I don’t have to do anything other than point out that REALITY and our system of governance is operating and matching up to what I and most others are able to easily grasp and comprehend.
You keep whining about “silly symbols”, yet never what you mean. So I have no idea what you are even talking about on that front and just dismiss it as another hollow bitter tears excuse to whine from you, because you have no REAL ability to REFUTE anything I’ve said. You simply lack the capability, because neither facts NOR logic on on your side…
John Woodman wrote an excellent article that explains what St. George Tucker actually said and how Mario misinterprets Tucker’s words.
Birther Bust Bombshell: Prominent Legal Expert St. George Tucker DIRECTLY Refutes Mario Apuzzo’s Crank Natural Born Citizen Claim
G,
You just keep repeating the same old thing over and over. You add nothing of substance to the debate on the meaning of a “natural born Citizen.” You have not provided any historical sources or case law that proves me wrong, just your own haughty rhetoric.
Here is some history and case law:
1. Presidents must be natural born citizens.
2. Barack Obama and Chester Arthur were/are Presidents.
3. Ergo, Barack Obama and Chester Arthur were/are natural born citizens.
4. Barack Obama and Chester Arthur had/have non-citizen fathers.
Conclusion: You do not need 2 citizen parents to be a natural born citiizen. Irrefutable. I dare even St George Tucker to refute that.
But Mario, YOU have provided historical sources and case law that proves you wrong…why should anyone else need to bother?
LOL! More predictable projection from you Mario. That’s all you’ve got, since you can’t actually REFUTE anything I’ve said. Of COURSE I have to keep restating the same thing, because YOU keep restating the same illogical and incorrect nonsense over and over again.
The broken record here is YOU, Mario. If you don’t want to be told NO in the same way over and over again, then YOU need to stop repeating the same DEBUNKED crockery that you endlessly spew.
As WE have all pointed out, YOU have NOT provided *any* references that actually support your convoluted conclusions at all.
YOU are the one trying to make a case here that goes contrary to the daily reality that is in place (HINT: Obama is still President…*duh*)
It is up to YOU to make a winning case to the courts. You’ve FAILED miserably. No one is buying your tripe there nor here.
You can’t have it both ways, Mario. You have said that a “natural born Citizen” is not a subset of a “Citizen of the United States” and that a “Citizen of the United States” is not eligible for the presidency. Then, by your definition a “natural born Citizen” is precluded from serving in Congress.
The Constitution states that Representatives and Senators must be a “Citizen of the United States” with a capital “C”. Your analogy that like the status of being 25 and 30 years old, it is only a minimun doesn’t fly. The Constitution expressly states those are minimums.
I give you …. the history of the United States. Check it out some time.
Dang-it. With this, irony meters all over the world have burst, this will cause a run on the irony-meter market, which will mean my replacement one will cost me a pretty penny.
Thanks for the link! I’m reading it now.
No surprise, but Mr. Woodman reads Mario’s selected quote from Tucker and arrives at the same common sense conclusion that I did:
Agreed!
G,
On John Woodman’s article which is his response to my position on St. George Tucker, make sure to read all my comments in response to his article. I destroy all of what Mr. Woodman says. In fact, he even gave up responding to my evidence.
He didn’t give up, he got tired of you never directly refuting anything he said. And furthermore, you provided more historical evidence that President Obama is eligible. Why should anybody bother when you’re the President’s biggest supporter?
*yawn*… Ok, I’ve made it half-way through the comments and so far he’s WON and you simply come across just as foolish and delusionally pompous as you do here.
You didn’t “destroy” anything. All I see are others easily poking holes in everything you say and you merely coming back like a little obstinate child who folds his hands and claims “no I’m not”, as if your mere refusal to admit being wrong in any way changes the basic fact that you are wrong in the first place… It does not.
So yeah, as usual you cite to sources which just make you look like even more of a fool.
But hey, now I know the count for you is ZERO WINS and EIGHT LOSSES on this silly fools errand that you and your backers are wasting time and money on…
ZERO and EIGHT… wow…just wow… what an embarassing record and unbroken string of failures you have to show for yourself…
Welcome to what all of us think everytime you post Mario.
Dense….bizarre…insane….diatribe….
I am still sad that you want to take away my federal license because I am only a Natural Born citizen- not a “citizen of the United States” as is required for my license.
As I have written elsewhere zero for eight is an understatement of how thoroughly Mario’s two citizen parent fantasy has been thoroughly dismissed.
I wrote this in a comment on the article at John Woodman’s blog:
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.: The first fallacy in your argument is your failure to understand that the Founders and Framers created two separate and distinct classes of “citizens,” the “natural born Citizens” and the “Citizens of the United States.”
Keep repeating that Mario- because it just points out how idiotic your argument is.
If this was true- as I keep pointing out- then I (born here of two citizen parents to use your own unique definition) am a Natural born Citizen- which is seperate and distinct from “Ctizens of the United States” and therefore not eligible for any position which requires one be a Citizen of the United States, or any program for which only “Citizen’s of the United States’ are eligible.
What about you Mario? Are you a Natural Born citizen too? Are you illegally claiming any benefits that only ‘citizens of the United States” are eligible for?
Clearly someone needs to do an investigation to make sure you are not in violation of your own very unique legal view.
You are insane, just like Orly Taitz. She comes from the USSR. What’s your excuse?
As my father, עליו השלום , used to say “If you argue with a fool, make sure you’re not doing the same thing.”
It’s terribly telling when the only thing that can be said about Mario’s terminal stupidity is it’s more grammatically correct than Mad Old Orly’s.
So, again Mario,
Do tell, EXACTLY how many cases have you won in this arena?
Do tell, EXACTLY how many court cases in the USA has ANY Birfoon won in this arena?
Do tell, EXACTLY how humiliating was it to lose to a junior associate?
misha,
Your father told you: “If you argue with a fool, make sure you’re not doing the same thing.”
Isn’t that something. My father told me the same thing.
Professor Reality Check,
Your silly bean counting is about all your mental capacity will allow you to do.
I heard you are a really boring professor in class.
Obama’s parents were “citizens”. 100% “citizens.” You are a liar.
sjfeff,
Maybe a sedative will help you get over the loss of your much cherised rights.
G,
Do you really think that your opinion counts? You are such liar that your own parents don’t talk to you.
Jim,
I can see why you hang out at places where G may be found.
G,
I have stopped reading your rubbish, especially the formatting. It really is worthless.
“Cherised” rights? (I am only making fun of that because Mario has made a big deal out of folks he doesn’t agree with making a typo or two in comments on his blog). Unlike Doc’s blog his does not allow you to edit comments, is fully moderated, and uses that stupid CAPCHA nonsense.
Ouch- how can I dispute this keen finely honed legal argument?
Clearly these are the arguments that have seen so much legal success in Birtherdom!
Meanwhile- where can I get my Natural Born Citizen passport?
All I have right now is a passport as a citizen of the United States….
They knew each other, maybe?
As is yours.
Mario: Cross the river, and go to Union Square. Practice.
Then come here.
I’ve been reviewing Mario’s postings, his citings, and his reviews of history and I have come to an inescapable conclusion…Mario is a double-agent working for the President. The evidence is all there, in black and white and in Mario’s own words. Just look at what he’s done:
1) Misquotes or cherry picks quotes from SCOTUS cases that lead the readers directly to SCOTUS opinions that strengthen the President’s case for eligibility.
2) Continues to pound on the same points time and time again until they are so thoroughly debunked, they become useless for any to use against the President and actually become more evidence that the President is eligible.
3) Brings up historical readings that, when read completely, further strengthen the President’s position.
4) Sucks up birther resources on losing cases, that he KNOWS are losers, so they have less available for real cases and to use against the President’s re-election.
5) Continually posts on Pro-eligibility web sites so that his and birther positions can be thoroughly debunked and further undercut the birthers.
6) Makes totally dumb statements that have no backing in law or history that only further prove that the birthers are a fringe group not worthy of people’s attention.
That’s right, it’s all right there. MARIO APUZZO IS WORKING FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA! Making the President look stronger and working to undermine the birther movement. Congrats Mario, you no longer need to be a Closet Obot, now that the truth is out…you are now a full-fledged OBOT!
It’s the persistence of reality.
Lying about something you have no control over is always a bad idea, as you can’t make your lie appear true. You will always be out’d. Mario can “misinterpret” all the writings he wants, he can’t change what they actually say. He only wishes he worked for the Ministry of Information!
Birthers can lie until they die, they can undo the development of the political and legal traditions that govern this country.
Hi Mario,
What a long discussion this has been, eh? I’m trying to clarify some things regarding your position.
It’s my understanding that that you do not believe that there is a conspiracy to bribe or threaten judges who oversee birther law suits. Rather, the fact that they have decided against you and other plaintiffs has to do with the judges’ flawed understanding of the historial arguments surrounding the concept of “natural-born citizen.” Is that accurate?
Second, do you feel you’ve had the opportunity to adequately present your arguments in court?
Thanks.
Having a bad day? I daresay, but that doesn’t excuse your unprofessional behavior in this and several other comments today.
Not a problem:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/07/no-irony-meter-shortage/
Hey Dr. Con,
Apply your rules across the board.
Jim,
“But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve For daws to peck at: I am not what I am.”
Professor Reality Check,
I see you are out and about making corrections.
Why do you students complain about you being such a boring professor?
JPotter,
“St. George Tucker was arguably the most important legal expert to emerge in early America after the establishment of the Constitution.” John Woodman, at
http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/06/birther-bust-bombshell-prominent-legal-expert-st-george-tucker-directly-refutes-mario-apuzzos-crank-natural-born-citizen-claim/
“By admitting to his treachery, Mario would seem, in effect, to “wear his heart on his sleeve” for the birthers. Yet, while Mario tells the truth, he doesn’t tell all of it, and keeps hidden his true “native act and figure”—his intention to dupe the birthers out of even more jewels and cash.”
http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/heart-my-sleeve
BTW Mario, what are your next plans? Going to try an appeal of a meritless case or just try to sucker the birthers to hit your paypal button by telling them what they want to hear?
JoZeppy,
God forbid anyone should actually read anything.
So, it looks like Mario at this point is only calling people names rather than attempting legal argument. Of course, he has never actually engaged in substantive legal argument as far as I have seen
So, let’s summarize. Mario has been challenged again and agiant to provide a single person in history who has said a natural born citizen is not a “citizen of the United States,” Since, no one has ever said this, he simply insults people. He cannot respond to my citation of statute after statute that use such terms in a sense that has to include natural born citizens. Any honest person would simply admit they were wrong. Mario’s only argument is to twist the words of the Constitution to say that “citizens of the United States” cannot be President after expiration of the grandfather rules which, of course, is not what the Constitution says. Typical birther ploy of changing the language in order to make an argument. It says all citizens of any type in 1787 are eligible and, of course, does not preclude that a subset would later be eligible. To claim a possible interpretation is a necessary interpretaion is deeply dishonest.
This is nothing new. Mario has been challenged to cite a single authority that ever said native born children of aliens were aliens. He cannot, because no legal authority ever said that. When confornted with the definition of “alien” from every significant legal authority in the early rebpulic saying he is wrong, he changes the subject.
Mario has been challenged to produce a quote from any court that a native born person can be naturalized. He cannot. When one cites the Supreme Court and other significant authority saying naturlaization does not apply to the native born, he changes the subject.
Mario has been challenged to produce a quotation that any court has ever said a native born child need citizen parents and he cannot. He cites cases that have nothing to do with citiznehip or that expressly decline to address the issue with respect to aliens. He reads between the lines and claims the court is saying something it doesn’t say. Such is how one can ensure one’s argument will be ignored by our Courts.
When Mario is confronted with quotes from WOng Kim Ark stating in the clearest terms that he is wrong, he say they don’t count. Is it any wonder why the courts ignore him.
We’ve read the opinions that count….you know, the ones where the judges laugh your arguments out of the court house.
Since he makes up his own laws anyway, he could try citing Rubber v. Glue the next time he’s having his bloviating, birther bigot butt handed to him in court.
Yours sure doesn’t.
Aww…poor little Mario is back to having nothing but childish retorts to harmlessly sling about.
Of course a pathological liar like yourself can only assume the rest of the world operates as shady as you do. Fortunately, it doesn’t.
Simply more typical Mario-speak for self-admitting you’ve got nothing and lack the chops to actually refute anything I’ve said. It really has become your hallmark “tell” of how you react in your utter defeat. The real reason you have to stop replying is because you can’t REFUTE me at all.
And let me ask you what you think of this quote, Mario. It comes from the United States Supreme Court in a case that has been quoted by the United States Supreme Court 1148 times.
So, the Supreme Court has ruled that there is no American Common Law, and that any terms in the Constitution are defined by English Common Law.
So, that destroys your argument that there is a distinct American Common Law.
Yes, and I wholeheartedly agree, and thank you for answering. That’s the same answer I would have given. But, again, what authority is he? Is he a plenary power of some sort? An independent judicial or legislative entity? In questions of law, or more specifically, in determinations of citizenship status, do courts turn directly to Tucker?
I’m sorry I seem to have missed your response Mario,,
So, again Mario,
Do tell, EXACTLY how many cases have you won in this arena?
Do tell, EXACTLY how many court cases in the USA has ANY Birfoon won in this arena?
Do tell, EXACTLY how humiliating was it to lose to a junior associate
Mario’s childish behavior reminds me of Leo Donofrio’s ill fated venture to Jonathan Turley’s blog. Leo was trying to argue essentially the same nonsense that Mario is now and got humiliated. After a while he began just responding to everyone in a childish manner with the phrase “Peace be with you.” He gave up at Turley’s, ran back to his own blog and closed comments to everyone except “attorneys who post their name and bar number”. When no one commented at all he folded his blog altogether in a month or two.
He’s likely as confused as the real Constitutional experts who disagree with you, the Congress that doesn’t care about your delusions, and the courts that keep putting you in your place.
Actually the courts opinions count. G’s opinions just happen to agree with them.
Yours…. not so much lol
Ummmm… Mario……
You…. ahhh do realize this is a text based web site… right?
Text based… as in to “use” this web site, you…. well, you have to…. “read”…. stuff?
Just sayin’
ballantine,
The problem with your thinking is that you believe that you are the one who frames the issue. Well, I hate to inform you that you are not. The matter is rather defined by our history and not by you. All else that you allude to is just a lot of twisting and turning to get around all the evidence that is stacked against you. Here is some of this evidence:
(1) Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed.
Neuchatel 1758): Vattel requires that for a child to be a natural born citizen, at the time of birth, the child must be born to “citizen” parents. Vattel states:
“The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”
Id. Sec. 212 Citizens and natives.
(2) David Ramsay Dissertation (1789): Founder historian, David Ramsay, who in his A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789) told us that after July 4, 1776, birthright citizenship was preserved only for a child born to U.S. citizens, making no mention of place of birth. This definition surely came from natural law and the law of nations and not the English common law which in defining a “natural born subject” made no reference to the nationality of the parents. In his 1789 article, Ramsay first explained who the “original citizens” were and then defined the “natural born citizens” as the children born to citizen parents. He said concerning the children born after the declaration of independence, birthright “[c]itizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken part in the late revolution; but this is confined exclusively to the children of those who were themselves citizens….” Id. at 6. He added that “citizenship by inheritance belongs to none but the children of those Americans, who, having survived the declaration of independence, acquired that adventitious character in their own right, and transmitted it to their offspring….” Id. at 7. He continued that citizenship “as a natural right, belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776….” Id. at 6. As we can see, Ramsay put forth a definition of a “natural born Citizen” that only depended upon the child being born to U.S. citizen parents with no mention of place of birth;
(3) The David Ramsay-William Smith Congressional Debate: Even Representative William Smith, who Dr. Ramsay argued was not “seven Years a Citizen of the United States,” during the Ramsay-Smith Congressional debate of 1789, cited Emer de Vattel in his argument of November 1788 that he was, indeed, a citizen for seven years and therefore qualified to sit as a Representative under Article I, Section 2, Clause 2. Smith wrote:
The Doctor [Ramsay] says the circumstances of birth do not make a citizen–This I also deny. Vattel says: “The country of the father is that of the children and these become citizens by their tacit consent.” I was born a Carolinian, and I defy the Doctor to say at what moment I was disenfranchised. The revolution which took place in America made me a citizen, though then resident at Geneva…. There was never a moment when I was a citizen of any other country.
http://books.google.com/books?id=sxS00wE2l5kC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=%22Manner+of+Acquiring+the+Character+and+Privileges+of+a+Citizen+of+the+United+States%22+ramsay&source=bl&ots=RygvzaFnxH&sig=jbTmahSEVoMCMu6G4mhx9NiPqvg&hl=en&ei=FD62S-LhBsOclgeL2K1Y&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=vattel&f=false.
What is important to understand here is that Smith cited to Vattel on the question of whether he was a citizen. This is incontrovertible evidence that the Founders and Framers did cite and rely upon Vattel on questions of U.S. citizenship. If that were not the case, Smith, a soon-to-be member of the House of Representatives, would not have resorted to using Vattel as an authority and expert on U.S. citizenship and especially on the question of his own citizenship. Relying on universal principles, James Madison and the House did rule that Smith was a “Citizen of the United States” for 7 years and eligible to be a Representative.
(4) St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries (1803) http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm :
“3. Civil rights, taken in a strict and confined sense, as contradistinguished from natural and social rights, are such as appertain to a man as a citizen or subject, of this, or that, particular state or country; in his private and individual capacity as a free agent, and member of the body politic or state, in respect to the state or body politic; and contradistinguished from such as might be due to him as a magistrate, legislator, judge, or other public agent, character, or functionary. The right of electing, and being elected to, any public office or trust, may be considered as among the most important of these rights. These civil rights may be inherited, or acquired, in the United States: they are acquired by a foreigner who is naturalized; they are inherited by all whose parents, at the time of their birth, were citizens.
***
Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.”
St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries (1803) http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm .
(5) The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814): Chief Justice John Marshall, concurring and dissenting for other reasons, cites Vattel and provides his definition of natural born citizens and said: “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”
(6) Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 28 U. S. 99, 164(1830): “Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children even of aliens born in a country while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government and owing a temporary allegiance thereto are subjects by birth. ”
Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 28 U. S. 99, 164 (1830) (Story, J., concurring).
This was not the decision of the majority. The majority rejected Justice Story’s jus soli citizenship (he concluded that the demandant was an American citizen) and rather accepted jus sanguinis citizenship (they said that even though the demandant may have been born in the State of New York, the demandant was an American citizen only if his parents were U.S. “citizens”) as shown by its holding that the demandant born in New York after July 4, 1776 was a U.S. citizen only if his parents were at the time of his birth U.S. citizens.
(7) Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830): same Vattelian definition without citing Vattel, stated: “If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.”
(8) Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875): Even though the Fourteenth Amendment had already been passed, Minor did not rely upon that amendment to define either a “natural born Citizen” or a “citizen.” Rather, it applied the American “common-law” definition of those terms. Providing Vattel’s law of nations definition of a “natural-born citizen” without citing Vattel, and not in any way referring to the English common law, it laid down the definition of a “natural-born citizen” as follows:
“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.”
Id., at 167-68.
(9) Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879): same Vattelian definition and cites Vattel, said: “[T]he offspring of free persons…follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen — as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law… No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’ The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”
(10) United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890) (same Vattelian definition and cites Vattel): “At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”
(11) U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898): It distinguished between an Article II “natural born Citizen” and a Fourteenth Amendment “born . . . citizen of the United States.” It relied on the English common law and Calvin’s Case (1608) to hold that a child born in the United States to domiciled alien parents was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth under the 1868 Fourteenth Amendment. But concerning the 1787 Article II “natural born Citizen,” it cited Minor and quoted its American common law definition of a “natural-born citizen.”
“Allegiance and protection are, in this connection” (that is, in relation to citizenship),
reciprocal obligations. The one is a compensation for the other: allegiance for protection, and protection for allegiance. . . . At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of [p680] parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.
Minor v. Happersett (1874), 21 Wall. 162, 166-168. The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”
Id. at 679-80 (citing and quoting from Minor).
Professor Reality Check,
You really are boring. Everyone one of your comments is about some popularity contest. I think you would be a great judge of a beauty pageant.
bovril,
Bean counter.
Re: Majority Will,
Be careful, the ethics police has arrived.
Mario, there is no American Common Law. Read Smith v. Alabama: “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
Then the Supreme Court also says, in that same decision, that the Constitution is expressly framed in the Language of English Common Law. The Supreme Court has directly refuted your main point (that there is an American Common Law that is distinct from English Common Law).
The Supreme Court directly rejects that argument, and did it after Minor. So, if Minor was declaratory of the American Common Law, then why did the Supreme Court 15 years later say that there was no American Common Law?
dunstvangeet
Do you even understand what you are saying? Please, let’s not leave our good sense outside. Can you imagine England having some monopoly and control over the production of the common law. Wow, they must drink some special water. Imagine, there is no American common law. Only English common law. Please. . . Please . . . Please . . .
You are not even close. I will disregard much of your post, I am sure the others here will take you to task on what you have (mis)quoted. Please do not think you are getting away with spin on the rest.
In Inglis v Saior’s Snug Harbor, the Court clearly set forth rules which were specific to the time of the revolution. Had he been born in an American controlled area, he would have been a NBC, had he been born after the Revolution, he would have been NBC. They ruled he was not because of the turmoil during the revolution, when and where he was born, and the fact that he did not claim his citizenship upon his majority. It had nothing to do with his parentage, aside from what I have listed.
Minor v. Happersett, yes, they quoted Minor v Happersett, which was immediately followed by “The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.” Note, they did not say “OMG! They defined NBC.”
It was clearly understood in US v Wong Kim Ark, with a well-cited opinion, that WKA was a citizen at birth and eligible for the presidency. Both the prosecution and the dissenting justices agreed.
mimi,
Bean counter.
Oh, and citing the Venus is just absurd. The case involved three NATURALIZED citizens and what the consequences were of their being domiciled in England after the beginning of the Revolution. NBC had nothing to do with the case, ever.
Scientist,
I said: “Only a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be President.”
You said: “Where is there a court decision to that effect? It is an incontrovertible FACT that the person who wins the election is the President. You cannot cite me an example where that was not the case.”
My response:
“We start from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the ‘natural born’ citizen is eligible to be President. Art. II, 1.
Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964).
Linda,
You are desperate.
Shanks v Dupont. Another case involving Revolution era complications. You don’t bother to say that the Court ruled in favor of the heirs of Ms. Shanks, even though she left the US for England, had all her children there and died there. No….wouldn’t want to tell anyone that.
Linda,
I’m sorry to tell you but your trivialties cannot shake the power of the totality of the historical evidence which informs how our nation defined a “natural born Citizen” since the Founding.
Insults can’t change the facts. This is the same list of ca-ca that you have tried in your lawsuits and it has failed miserably. No surprise.
You may well get away with that kind of ($*%#) on your blog, and have them groveling at your feet, but that isn’t happening here. People here READ the decisions, and frankly, I am not convinced you have. Other than being on some data-miner for the Minor v Happersett quote, they do not at all support your position.
You were doing better when you refused to cite sources.
Mr. Apuzzo: I realize I am a very late comer to this thread, but I’d like to ask you a question I have always wanted to ask people who argue that the Vattel texts are authoritative in interpreting the Constitution. None of such persons, in any place I’ve read, including you, seems to have the slightest idea of historiographic methodology in tracing influences in political and intellectual history. Since the time of the Founders—& in their own writings too—every single historian has understood John Locke to have been the most important influence, and not one that I know of in the nineteenth, twentieth, or the current century has argued that Vattel had significant influence. There were hundreds of editions of Locke’s work, critiques and defenses published in England in the century before the Constitutional Convention. Of Vattel there was a translation and just a very few polemical pamphlets. He was just one of quite a number of other English and continental writers on international law—one in a large field. He was more important than most, but had far less influence in 1775-1800 than Grotius, who lived a century earlier. Vattel’s book is nowhere then nor anywhere meant to be a standard authority; it was a jurisprudential treatise, arguing for the author’s theories. It is called Jus Nationum. The article “The” is attached to the title in English translation but conveys no authority. There are practically no citations of Vattel or references to him in the printed and manuscript literature of the Founders or the public polemic of the time, whereas Locke is mentioned many hundreds of times. The argument that the Founders regarded Vattel as authoritative is not sustained by the fact that some of their libraries included copies of his work, because Locke is vastly more common. There are no facts at all to support a primacy of Vattel over Locke, and yet you and your allies make this assertion as if it were self-evident. Why do you think that your assertion is valid when it simply proves your ignorance of the literature?
We are still counting….
Well said Linda! Mario is just an out and out open liar and fraud. He has ZERO ability to actually defend his dishonest and intentional misleading misquotes and misinterpretations of actual law and court cases. All he is capable of doing when caught, is (failing) at distraction from his own inadequacy, by thinking he can sling some childish insult and duck the issue…
Most kids grow out of such useless guilt-based defense mechanisms in grade school. Mario clearly is stunted in his development…in more ways than one.
Thanks, G. You have been doing the hard work. What a marathon the last 24 hrs! Much appreciated, all around.
Bennett,
You are poorly informed on Vattel and well informed on Locke. I agree with you on Locke. I have cited to Locke in my briefs to the courts and in my writings. The Founders obtained their fundamental ideas on citizenship also from Locke.
Locke and Vattel basically said the same thing. Children because of their age, followed the condition of their parents. Upon reaching majority they could accept the citizenship they inherited from their parents by tacit consent or throw it off and accept a different one.
No, but thanks for your concern.
Linda,
Did you know that when one does not have anything intelligent to say one resorts to bean counting?
G,
In true haughty form.
Mario: You never heard of Emmerich de Vattel until Leo dug his tome out of a dustbin in 2008, and neither has Orly Taitz or any others who cut and paste quotes.
I, on the other hand, am well versed in Marx before 2008.
– “Outside of a dog, a book is man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read.”
– If Groucho Marx and John Lennon wrote a musical together, it would be a Marxist-Lennonist production.
I win.
I wouldn’t know, enlighten me. What does one do when they realize they have a losing strategy? Adjust and adapt or double down?
Speaking of beans, your father was wrong. You did amount to a hill of beans.
Those are great. My husband use to have a Tshirt with this one on it.
Nice. I think you should have your own rimshot button.
http://instantrimshot.com/
This thread needs a warning label!
Marios has met the nation’s iron needs for a week.
Good thing he was in favor of that whole iron cap-and-trade deal.
Actually, Angel is desperate to go out. She’s a Jewish dog, and a real bitch.
Mario = KKK propagandist.
Stand back, I think Misha is picking up steam! : )
This old hat argument has, by now, been demonstrably proven to be a red herring; a correct translation unmistakably leads to the sole conclusion that, were Vattel’s definition be applied, Obama would be a natural-born citizen.
You are simply wrong, and a liar, and I say this as a French attorney with over 30 years experience, while you have none.
For a long time, I tried to give him the benefit of the (enormous) doubt. I have since lost patience. Whether he does it intentionally, I can’t say, but he certainly doesn’t seem concerned about the consequences.
Try this: [bada-bing]
Let us remember that Mario MISQUOTES Vattel and uses him to say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Vattel intended.
Mario is a liar, a KKK mouthpiece, that really ought to be disbarred or at least severely sanctioned for his misrepresentations in court pleadings.
He is a small, meretricious man who is making money spewing vile discredited (if not nonexistent) divisive theories.
Well, we know that the fools and hack liars just double down. Hence: Mario as the prime exhibit. That’s been his only accomplishment here so far – proving to any who might be sympathetic to him or expect that he “must” actually have “some” talent as a laywer, that he’s merely just another worthless lost cause who is full of nothing but empty smoke and lame retorts.
I mean seriously…how many posts has he wasted merely saying “bean counting”… as if that is somehow a defense for his complete 0-8 loss record in the courts… weak…
Thanks, but really there hasn’t been any “hard work” involved dealing with this Birther at all. His arguments are so farcical on their face and fall apart so quickly that it takes very little effort (other than the time spent typing) to reveal the massive flaws and dishonest mis-statements in his crazy claims. His premises are so poorly constructed that the logic and comprehension flaws are mere child’s play to debunk.
Which is why he is wimpering that I’m being “haughty” to him….because it is very difficult to sufficiently “dumb down” explanations in order to reach someone at his childishly stunted comprehension level… no matter how hard one tries, it still remains beyond both his capability and maturity levels…
Speaking of female dogs, try this: http://www.rabbithashusa.com/pdf/2008candidate_lucylou.pdf
I have been inspired! A similar poster, face/head digitally exchanged for that of one certain correspondence school lawyer, extra mascara on the side. Caption? Vote for the BrthQueen? Got Sanctions? Don’t let good waste go to mind?
It really is at the point where it no longer matters if Mario is just intentionally play-acting for the benefit of his “clients” or is really as stupid and inept as he comes across.
If his “act” is to convince others that he’s a fraud, liar, kook and incompetent hack with the reasoning skills of a braindamaged child, then “Mission Accomplished!”
Actions have consequences and people are responsible for their own image, reputation and integrity. He’s chosen to throw that all away and intentionally goes out of his way to make sure his flaws and bad habits are on full display as much as possible.
Therefore, act or not, he deserves to be treated as if he’s legitimately as much of an utter mess as he presents himself. He’s a fraud and a failure either way.
You can’t give him the benefit of the doubt. Unlike “john” who is an idiot, Mario is smart and his earlier career is abundant evidence of his priorities ($$$). Mario sold his services (probably for a handsome monthly retainer) to defend the indefensible.
I told here how I once had to deal with what might best be dubbed “mob lawyers” in the Paretti/MGM case. Mario reminds me of them.
Mario: if you are right in claiming that Locke says the same thing as Vattel, then why do you cite Vattel? Why not cite Locke, who demonstrable influence, rather than Vattel, who had no demonstrable influence?
My question to you wasn’t so much about what either man said but about your method. Any claim of influence in the history of ideas requires careful contextualization and proof. Mere assertions based on apparent similarities don’t cut it.
Personally I think Mario’s target audience are the weak-minded, easily fooled people out there who will listen to him and say, “yeah he’s right Mexican babies aren’t real American citizens, unlike me.”
Think of Mario as you thought of the “Swift Boat” propagandists who went after Kerry. Same breed.
Another irony meter exploding.
Yes, Locke’s famous quote (which must have driven monarchs up the wall):
… and the “basically” matching Vattel citation …. would be ….. what exactly? This?
So, one is saying “here’s the deal!” and the other is saying “umm…stay tuned.”
Asserting that this are “basically the same” is like insisting that Minor v. Happersett defined “natural-born citizen”! Who would be so silly as to say such a thing? Only someone who couldn’t discern between a definite and a theoretical …. 😉
^ I think Mario can pass that test … c’mon, Mario, you can do it …. dum de dum dum …
You are both right, though I do not like to think of people that way. But if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…
And yet you are the one losing all the court cases.
Well, sure, if you want to get all technical about it…. : )
Of course that is his audience. I completely agree with you on these aspects of Mario’s intentions.
However, you keep claiming that he must really be “smart”. I remain utterly unconvinced of that. Where is your evidence to support that?
Just because he is a small time DUI lawyer and is able to derive an income from clients says nothing about his capabilities nor his intelligence. So whether he is merely playing the part of a fool or really is as inept of a buffoon as he comes across, does it even really matter anymore?
I mean seriously, if this is all just an “act” for his client’s propaganda purposes, then wouldn’t you at least expect him to be able to actually hone his arguments for his side intelligently and without such clear and elementary flaws?
Who cares that he can ramble on and string together an endless stream of words. That only fools the idiots out there, because they are both blinded by hate and often too gullible and lazy to read the weak nonsense he spews. His “marks” merely see a lot of legalese and then glaze over by the quantity of his bloviating and don’t actually bother to read it. They simply do a few lazy word searches for their cut and paste efforts so they can parrot excerpts of his dreck to the rest of the already-faithful Cult of Birtheristan. That’s about it. It requires very, very little actual talent, ability or intelligence to pull off such a garden variety blowhard scam as his.
If there was a properly functioning brain behind the con, you would expect some ability to improve on his game over time… Further, for someone who actually had a career practicing law, you’d think he’d be able to pull off his act better and with even a slight bit of competence, when he actually gets in front of an actual judge. So far the tapes of his courtroom misadventures have only revealed him to be way out of his depth and demonstrably with little more talent at his craft than many of the kook pro se litigants we’ve seen, who don’t even have law degrees.
He’s certainly no Gary Kreep. He’s not even in Berg’s league either. He’s more competent than Mad Orly…but wow…when the bar is set that low…that really doesn’t say much at all…
Well, I have the advantage (disadvantage?) of working a lot and by the time I get to catch up here, you guys have done all the hard work. I just try to zero in.
I’m not saying it, Mario, the Supreme Court is, in a case that has been cited over 1000 times by the Supreme Court. Smith v. Alabama (1888). In fact, the Supreme Court in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, in a case on citizenship, quoted this exact passage.
Exact quotes:
“There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
“There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
That’s the majority opinion in Smith v. Alabama, written by Justice Matthews, has those exact quotes in them.
So, with there being no “American Common Law” that’s distinct from the common law of England, then there cannot be the underlying pin of your argument: that American Common Law is different from English Common Law, and that it must be American Common Law that is what Minor said when they ruled that they must look at the Common Law.
If you really want to get anywhere in your legal argument, then you have to address Smith v. Alabama, because that blows your case out of the water when the Supreme Court directly quotes it on citizenship cases to define terms in the Constitution.
Actually, on this point, I was reading an article about the infamous Nigerian email scams. The question is why do they keep up with that scam, because it is so obvious, stupid and everyone knows about it. Turns out, they do it on purpose because ethan they let the marks self-select themselves. ANyone who bites has self-selected themselves as prime candidate to be taken for a ride. That way they cut out the grief of dealing with people who might get fooled by a more clever twist but then not actually deliver the goods in the end.
I don’t think you and I really disagree at all. My use of the word “smart” in this context has a very low threshold. 🙂
In effect, Mario is paid to defend an indefensible position. Is he doing it well? I’m not competent enough to judge.
Lupin my friend,
You give Mario way too much credit and yourself far too little…
Second.
That’s very nice of you to say this!
I may be “old school” but you’ll have noticed that I stay away from arguments about US constitutional law, Supreme Court cases, etc. It’s because I’m not an American lawyer and, while I certainly could work my way through some of the stuff being discussed here, I think it would be foolish for a non-professional to wade in too deep as it were.
Conversely, I find it really irritating to see American birthers (lawyers or otherwise) pontificate about Vattel about whom they know very little. I felt quite gratified to see your Congressional Research Lawyer (whatever his exact tile was) come to the very same conclusions I’ve been repeating here as nauseam, because he obviously took the time to do his research right. But people like Mario continue to perpetuate this fraud (& others) knowingly and willfully in my opinion.
Leaving aside his actual competence as an attorney, I do think that Mario is too thin-skinned and too self-involved in his own fabrications to be the best mouthpiece he could be. First, he shouldn’t be arguing with us here, and losing his cool. We’re not his target audience. The analogy with the Nigerian scammers is excellent. He should be out there trying to scam gullible people with his tissues of lies and half-truths, not wasting his time here. I think that’s a character’s flaw.
But then again, if you were his client or clients, it’s not like you would have a huge choice of attorneys willing to represent you, is it? I’m sure Mario is being handsomely paid (from his standpoint, a much better and more secure source of retirement than chasing after ambulances) but still, we’re not talking millions, I’m sure. It’s very possible, in fact quite likely, that Mario is the best they can afford.
Which is not very good indeed.
There is something I said earlier… I think I’m right, but I don’t know for sure… Perhaps one of you could enlighten me…
Leaving aside the specific case of Obama himself, if Mario’s “super-citizen” theory was actually declared valid for the future (we know it won’t, but this is purely a theoretical discussion), I have the sense that its ramifications would be huge, rendering it impractical, not to say virtually impossible, to put in practice.
Am I right?
As I said, I kinda wonder why all birther legal “theories” somehow boil down to a situation where the US are effectively incapable of finding an eligible candidate. (Either because any foreign state can “ineligibilify” any US citizen, or because no proof is ever enough to prove one is eligible, or because any proof is virtually unobtainable, such as DNA records that reach back centuries.)
Yes, I think it would be a disaster. Instead of asking for birth certificates, people would demand DNA. We would end up with ruling classes and immigrant populations would be relegated to second-class citizens. I am first generation on my mother’s side, my father was in the military. It seemed like half the wives on base were foreign born. I would hate to be the one to explain to the armed forces that their children, too, might lose the citizenship lottery. I can’t think of any way that Mario’s view of things would be could be good for the country.
President Obama did exactly that. When he was a young man, he accepted the US citizenship he inherited by birth in the US and from his mother and declined his option on Kenyan citizenship inheriited from his father. It’s amazing how every statement Apuzzo makes supports the President.
Mario, Mario, Mario, responding with dicta, are we? You know very well that Schneider was not President nor running for President, so the ruling in the case had nothing to do with being President. Shameful….
But even worse is that you failed to read what I said. I wrote about BEING President, not eligibility. Surely someone who sees “Citiizen” and “citizen” as very different can grasp that “being” President is completely different from “eligible”. The 2 words only share a few letters in common, not all their letters.
The Founders knew that “eligible” and “be” were very different. The great Henry Clay was elected to the Senate whilst ineligible due to his age. Most of the Founders were still alive and active in politics at that point. And what happened? Sen Clay took his seat, spoke in the Senate and voted just like all the other Senators. No one raised a peep, no one called James Madison or Thomas Jefferson a traitor, because they realized that while Sen Clay might not be “eligible” he was perfectly capable of “being” a Senator. There was a similar case around the same time regarding a House member.
President is no diifferent. So far, as you know, all those who “have been”/”are” President have been/are also “eligible”. But suppose some day someone were to “be” President who was not “eligible”. So what? It would be no different from Sen Clay. That person would “be” President for 4 or 8 years and life would continue, the sun would rise in the East, the corn would be knee-high by the 4th of July, the NY Yankees would play in October and all would be right with the world.
So this is your new defense to the fact that you have lost every time you presented your arguments to a court? Pointing out that courts reject your arguments, without fail, is not bean counting. And not only do you fail, but your argument are called frivolous. And pretty much every time, the courts smack you down for the exact reasons that some collection of people pointed out here. Now for a mildly sane person, that might lead them to conclude that perhaps they were wrong, and the other people, who predicted the court’s conclusion was accurate was right. But not in SuperMario World. Everyone who predicted why he would fail, is still wrong, the actual Conlaw scholars are wrong, the judges are wrong, and the 3rd rate DUI attorney who loses every case is still right. Do you take us for the biggest idiots in the world, or are you this abjectly stupid? How many times does a court have to say “Minor did not define NBC” before it sinks into your head? The list of opinions keeps growing, and your best defense is “bean counter”? I don’t know what they taught you at Temple, but at my law school, they said when every single case out there goes against you, and every judge reads a particular case a certain way, odds are good you’re the one that’s reading it wrong, not the rest of the world. But then again, I guess things are different in Mario World.
Keep cupping your hands over your ears, stomping your feed, and screaming, “I’m right and everyone else is wrong.” It’s quite amusing. Maybe if you did that in court, your odds would improve.
So if the President only won a popularity contest yesterday at SCOTUS on the ACA why all the hoopla in the media and wailing on the part of the Republicans?
You have presented to the courts that your clients have been injured. Eight times the courts have told you your clients either had no injury, had no redress under the law, and that your claims were baseless. You have wasted thousands of our taxpayer dollars and precious court time on your frivolous lawsuits. There actually is a serious side to this other than your comical performance on this blog and others.
You shouldn’t use words that you don’t understand.
This precedent, in this country and in others, for arbitrarily disenfranchisingwhole groups or classes of people. Yes, it would be tragic. It’s counter to all our ideals. But a frightened or enraged people, particularly if expertly manipulated and divided, is capable of all sorts of cruelty and insanity. Of course we would like to believe that that Americans would rise up and resist any such attempt, but history says otherwise. All it takes is a demagogue willing to play up fear and hate.
Professor Reality Check,
That’s exactly what I mean about you. You are not capable of making any legal arguments. But you are able to sit back and comment on what is and what is not popular. That means you have nothing to contribute to the substance of the debate on what is a “natural born Citizen.” You are just a boring chap which is what so many of your university students tell you.
No, you are simply changing the subject as you can’t provide any authority to support your silly assertion after “citizen of the United States.” The fact our statutes and treaties used the term in a context that cannot exlcude natural born citizens proves you are wrong. I provided a small sample. There are literally hundreds of such statutes. You are amazingly arguing that the term “citizen” when referring to a United States citizen means something different that “citizen of the United States” when you can’t find a single person in history who has ever said that. So, since you can’t provide any evidence to support your position, you just repeats your string of misrepretations of law and cases that have nothing to do with who is a natural born citizen and still sadly proclaims that WKA distinguished between a 14th Amendment citizen and a naturtal born citizen when the whole point of the case is that they are the same. All this has been debunked over and over so it is a waste of time trying to teach you how to read case law. However, if you want to do some homework, you can see both WKA and Minor use “citizen of the United States” in contexts where it cannot be hjis definition. Of course, that won’t stop you from saying it over and over since you think repetition is legal argument.
No, that’s you and The Donald. Both birthers, I might add.
What is funnyabout this is that if you look at this thread, most of Mario’s comments are nothing but petty insults devoid of any legal argument at all. I guess when one can’t beack up their assertions with any authority there is little else to do. That won’t do him any good in court as we have seen.
Mario: “What kind of fool do you take me for?”
DA: “First class.”
Apologies to the Firesign Theatre.
Actually, the Gestapo had the Office Of Racial Purity. They went back 16 generations, to look for Jewish ancestors.
Birthers and the Tea Party are acting like a cornered wild animal. Conservatives are trying every tactic to subvert the Voting Rights Act.
I hope I’m wrong in saying, this will not end well.
I have done a little more research on William D. Guthrie who wrote the lectures on the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark that I quoted earlier. I put together a blog post about Guthrie and what he said on the subject. Funk & Wagnalls: President Obama is Eligible
Read his bio and you will see how hilarious it is that Mario would think he knows more about the Constitution than Guthrie.
But Mario knows more about the Constitution than anyone who disagrees with Mario … including the people who wrote it!
Great post and research, RC!
Quoting Mario
“You are not capable of making any legal arguments.”
Mario, you remind me of an Oklahoma City Thunder fan who insists that his beloved team showed the Miami Heat up in every way possible in things basketball. Yet in the real world, on the court, the Heat overwhelmed their young opponents.
With you, you keep boasting how your brilliant logic has bested everyone on this blog, but in the real world – the courts, where it matters – you and your allies have been skunked.
Come to think of it, you’re more like the Charlotte Hornets (7-59 final record.) Except, of course, they won a few.
So asrio, I take it you actually agree that, as a “bean counting”, exercise that you and your ilk have won exactly ZERO cases
You have ZERO judges, constitutional scholars, or actual constitutional lawyers on board
You have ZERO credibility
Do tell, have you ever won ANY cases even in your preferred field of DUI..?
Gotta keep counting all that juicy creamy FAIL you’re (in)famous for.
Ballantine,
You said: “You are amazing arguing that the term ‘citizen’ when referring to a United States citizen means something different than ‘citizen of the United States’ when you can’t find a single person in history who has ever said that.”
Well, you are really wrong. Minor said:
“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”
The Court said that at “common-law,” there were “citizens” and “natural-born citizens.” There had to be “citizens” before there were “natural-born citizen” or there could be no one would be a qualified parent who was needed to give birth to “natural-born citizens.” Hence, since Minor said that all the rest of the people were aliens or foreigners, the “citizens” would have to have been the original “citizens.” Congress was given the naturalization power to make more “citizens” by statute. But clearly these are naturalized “citizens” and not “natural-born citizens” under the “common-law.”
That Wong Kim Ark held, by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not by virtue of the “common-law” which Minor explained provided the Founders’ and Framers’ definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen,” that children born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents were also “citizens” “at birth,” did not change that original “common-law” definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Neither the Fourteenth Amendment nor Wong Kim Ark repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. Rather, they just added to the class of “citizens” who are just that, although “at birth,” but not “natural born Citizens” under the “common-law” which the Founders and Framers relied upon to define an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
No they didn’t. All nonsense, as per your usual, Mario.
There is no “third class” of citizens. Only Born (NBC) and Naturalized.
If you are a citizen at birth, you are NBC. Simple as that.
Your inane ideas have been shot down EVERY time you’ve attempted them in a court of law. You are a petty crank peddling delusions, nothing more.
I just have to laugh at Mario pontificating about the ‘totality of historical evidence’ when everyone and every ruling in America disagrees with him.
Ballantine,
You said: “You are amazing arguing that the term ‘citizen’ when referring to a United States citizen means something different than ‘citizen of the United States’ when you can’t find a single person in history who has ever said that.”
Well, you are really wrong. Minor said:
“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”
The Court said that at “common-law,” there were “citizens” and “natural-born citizens.” There had to be “citizens” before there were “natural-born citizen” or there could be no one would be a qualified parent who was needed to give birth to “natural-born citizens.” Congress was given the naturalization power to make more “citizens” by statute. But clearly these are naturalized “citizens” by statute and not “citizens” at “common-law” and are also not “natural-born citizens” under that “common-law.” Hence, since Minor said that all the rest of the people were aliens or foreigners, the “citizens” at “common-law” would have to have been the original “citizens.”
The Court said that at “common-law,” there were “citizens” and “natural-born citizens.” There had to be “citizens” before there were “natural-born citizen” or there could be no one who would be a qualified parent who was needed to give birth to “natural-born citizens.” Hence, since Minor said that all the rest of the people were aliens or foreigners, the “citizens” would have to have been the original “citizens.” Congress was given the naturalization power to make more “citizens” by statute. But clearly these are naturalized “citizens” and not “natural-born citizens” under the “common-law.”
That Wong Kim Ark held, by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not by virtue of the “common-law” which Minor explained provided the Founders’ and Framers’ definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen,” that children born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents were also “citizens” “at birth,” did not change that original “common-law” definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Neither the Fourteenth Amendment nor Wong Kim Ark repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. Rather, they just added to the class of “citizens” who are just that, although “at birth,” but not “natural born Citizens” under the “common-law” which the Founders and Framers relied upon to define an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
G,
You really add nothing of value to this debate. Your conclusory statement which do not address the arguments made and which have no legal analysis attached to them are worthless.
No Mario, it is you who have nothing of value to add.
You’ve tried your sad arguments in front of courts 8 times now and LOST every time.
That’s a pretty definitive answer that you are nothing but a crank who is only wrong in his thinking…
Face it, you have ZERO credibility. Come back when you can actually win an argument in front of a judge instead of getting tossed out every time.
Until then, the law and reality continues to hold up the President as President and therefore NBC. Sucks to be you.
Hey Mario! Over here at Doc’s now I see. Couldn’t handle a non-lawyer smoking you over at John’s I guess. So what are you working on now to further prove the President is eligible for office?
Mario: “That Wong Kim Ark held, by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not by virtue of the “common-law” which Minor explained provided the Founders’ and Framers’ definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen,” that children born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents were also “citizens” “at birth,” did not change that original “common-law” definition of a “natural-born citizen.””
United States v Wong Kim Ark – 169 U.S. 649 (1898)
In Dred Scott v. Sandford, (1857) 19 How. 393, Mr. Justice Curtis said:
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, ‘a natural-born citizen.’ It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
In United States v. Rhodes (1866), Mr. Justice Swayne, sitting in the Circuit Court, said:
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion
2 Kent Com. (6th ed.) 39, 42. And he elsewhere says:
“And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King’s obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary. . . . Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives, and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.”
MR. CHIEF JUSTICE FULLER, with whom concurred MR. JUSTICE HARLAN dissenting.
The argument is, that, although the Constitution prior to that amendment nowhere attempted to define the words “citizens of the United States” and “natural-born citizen” as used therein, yet that it must be interpreted in the light of the English common law rule which made the place of birth the criterion of nationality; that that rule
“was in force in all
Page 169 U. S. 706
the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established;”
Seems to me Ark doesn’t agree with you Mario.
Hey Mario, have you found a new barber yet?
Why should he? The barber he has now knows how to properly apply Just For Men™.
So, by your lights, Adam and Eve were not natural born citizens of Eden?
No, they were NBC of Mesopotamia. Or maybe Ur. [bada-bing]
Yeah, but he can’t do anything about that cowlick that sticks up when Mario starts to really lose it.
Not according to Mario. They had only 1 parent and I’m not sure you could really call him a citizen. But maybe we should let The Great One (Mario) speak. He should be careful what he says, because he might piss off the Even Greater One, who doesn’t tolerate fools gladly.
So Mario again fails to provide any evidence or authority to back his claim about “citizen of the United States” and just keeps changing the subject. Of course, everybody else knows he is wrong, but it is just sad he cannot admit it. He can’t respond to all the statutes and treaties that say he is wrong because, well, he is wrong. Instead, he simply repeats his discredited analysis of cases which are equally embarrassing. He says:
Of course, Minor says no such thing. Notice Mario only quotes selectively since Minor never said one needed citizen parents, but rather deferred on such issue. No legal authority in history, including all the parties on Wong Kim Ark, ever suggested Minor addressed the natural born citizneship status of children of aliens. Show us one quote to the contrary.
Again, I have posted over and over exact quotes from WKA saying that both the NBC clause and the 14th Amendment were defined by the English common law definition of natural born subject. You never respond because you cannot. Rather, you say such authority doesn’t count because you say so. Great argument in DWI court, I guess. I can quote you language again if you like, but cleary you cannot, or will not, understand it.
Hardly, Adam was a supernaturally animated dust golem, also apparently transmuted into flesh, as Eve was cloned from one of the former dust golem’s ribs. Not much natural about either of those origins!
Mario,
The Supreme Court has directly said that there is no American common law, and that the Constitution was framed in the language of English Common Law.
Now, you’re arguing directly against this thing which is binding precedent by stating that there is an American Common Law.
So, tell me, why do you go against Supreme Court Precedents?
Mario: you still haven’t answered either my original question or the question raised by your reply which avoided the question.
In your reply to my first post you claimed that Locke says the same thing about citizenship as Vatel. I asked you, therefore, why on earth do you cite Vattel, who had little or no demonstrative influence on the Founders instead of citing Locked, who had vast demonstrable influence on them?
My original question was and still is, how do you prove Vattel’s influence on the Founders? The unanimous consensus of historians is against it. The amount of citations of the two in contemporary Anglophone literature weighs against it. I just did a quick search of historical & related journals at JStor, and boyhowdy do these numbers weigh against Vattel. You make such claims as: according to the definition of citizenship “with which the Founders would have been familiar…” and that this definition was Vattel’s, but you never show the least effort to cite an historian who proves this by context and evidence or to do so yourself.
The area in which Vattel was most influential was just war theory. His theories of citizenship do not appear to have been particularly noticed.
As I said before, mere assertion based on apparent similarities is not adequate for making claims about influence in the history of ideas. Would you care to answer?
Bennett,
I do not know what you are trying to prove with your assertions. You are poorly informed about my work.
(1) I do not agree with you that Vattel was not influential on citizenship. Here is one example that shows you are wrong. In his own defense during the Smith-Ramsay debate of 1789, William Smith quotes Emerich de Vattel:
“The Doctor says the circumstance of birth does not make a citizen–This I also deny. Vattel says, ‘The country of the father is that of the children, and these become citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ [footnote omitted] I was born a Carolinian, and I defy the Doctor with all his ingenuity, arithmetical or political, to say at what moment I was disenfranchised—at what moment I lost my citizenship. The revolution which took place in America made me a citizen of America under the new government, though then resident at Geneva. I never by any act disqualified myself. There was never a moment when I was a citizen of any other country.”
1 The Documentary History of the First Federal Elections 1788-1790, p. 178-79 (ed. M. Jensen and R. Becker 1976). http://books.google.com/books?id=sxS00wE2l5kC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=%22Manner+of+Acquiring+the+Character+and+Privileges+of+a+Citizen+of+the+United+States%22+ramsay&source=bl&ots=RygvzaFnxH&sig=jbTmahSEVoMCMu6G4mhx9NiPqvg&hl=en&ei=FD62S-LhBsOclgeL2K1Y&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=vattel&f=false
Now this is a member of the House of Representative quoting Vattel on citizenship in 1789 in his own defense. You would think that in defending himself, he would have cited and quoted the most authoritative source on the subject matter. Wow, Smith picked Vattel. It surely is telling that Smith picked Vattel and did not pick William Blackstone in his own defense.
(2) You are also wrong that I have not cited to Locke. Here are some examples:
(a) From my brief to the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania in Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama:
“The Founders and Framers were also highly influenced by the writings of Locke, Pufendorf, Burlamaqui, and Vattel. “Few, perhaps, considered the question as carefully as did Peter Van Schaack, who retired to his New York farm in the winter of 1775-1776 to reread Locke, Vattel, Montesquieu, Grotius, Beccaria, and Pufendorf before taking his stand on independence.” James H. Kettner, The Development of American Citizenship, 1608-1870 , 188 (1978). It is probable that these were the key books that the Framers were studying when they were making plans for the new nation and that is why Van Schaack wanted to make sure to study and understood them at such a critical time. It is important to note that while Vattel made the list, Blackstone did not. Nor is there any reference to any books on English common law. This list of books is one piece of evidence that the Founders really did not care too much about what the English common law had to say when it came to constituting the new nation.
There is little doubt about the great influence that Locke had on many of the Founders. We know that Jefferson was greatly influence by Locke. “Bacon, Locke and Newton, whose pictures I will trouble you to have copied for me: and as I consider them as the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception, and as having laid the foundation of those superstructures which have been raised in the Physical & Moral sciences, I would wish to form them into a knot on the same canvas, that they may not be confounded at all with the herd of other great men.” Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Richard Price Paris (January 8, 1789) (discussing the importance that Jefferson gave to Bacon, Locke, and Newton). http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl74.htm. Accessed December 20, 2011. Jefferson called Bacon, Newton, and Locke, “my trinity of the three greatest men the world had ever produced.” http://explorer.monticello.org/text/index.php?id=82&type=4. Accessed December 20, 2011.
Locke’s notion of natural rights and the limits of government heavily influenced the drafters of the American Declaration of Independence and the Founders and Framers. In John Locke, The Two Treatises of Civil Government (T. Hollis ed. London 1764) (London 1689), Locke criticized absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings and developed a social contract theory according to which government legitimacy is based on the consent of the governed. His theory of consent is fundamentally tied to citizenship and specifically to the citizenship status of a child’s parents. Lock’s consent theory is grounded on the premise that individuals are not naturally subject to a sovereign, but rather consent to be governed and subordinate their natural freedom for protection from the government. John Locke, Two Treatises of Government, 129 (Peter Laslett ed., 1988). In solving the problem of birth into an organized society, Locke presented the theory of “tacit consent,” whereby an individual’s consent was implied so long as the individual remained under the government’s protection. Id. at 118. Nevertheless, Locke did not believe that children could consent to the government under which they were born. Id. He believed that a person could manifest such consent only upon reaching adulthood, at which time a volitional choice could be made. Id. From such a theory, we can see that any notion of citizenship would also be based on consent.
For Locke, the English common law did not influence his ideas on how to define citizenship in a society but natural law did. Locke’s republican concept of citizenship, which depended upon the citizenship of a child’s parents, was not drawn from a monarchial system of government or the English common law but rather from natural law. We can also see that British subjectship, based on feudal notions of birth on the soil as being the determining factor for allegiance and subjectship, did not fit at all into Locke’s concept of citizenship by consent which could only be expressed through a child’s parents. Id. Chapter VI, Of Paternal Power, Section 52-76. http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=222&chapter=16297&layout=html#a_704439 .
***
Understanding the context in which Rawle wrote his definition of a “natural born Citizen” helps us understand its validity. We can see that he wrote the place of birth (positive law) was sufficient to make a “natural born Citizen” and he did so to show that Locke was incorrect to tie his idea of citizenship to the citizenship of the child’s parents. But as I have and will further show in this essay, Rawle stood alone on his place of birth theory.
***
The Founders and Framers never accepted a definition of a “natural born Citizen” as put forth by Rawle, one tied to the soil (positive law) and nothing else. Locke also would not have accepted such a definition. To those who studied and followed natural law theories of citizenship, a child’s parents played a central role in citizenship. Rawle’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” is therefore to be rejected as not having any historical or legal basis or support. Rather, the Founders and Framers looked to natural law as did Locke and Vattel for such a definition. Vattel told us that natural law applied to nations was the law of nations. The Founders and Framers would ultimately look to the law of nations as codified by Vattel for a definition of “natural born Citizen.” And it is there that they found in Section 212 that a “natural-born citizen” is defined as a child born in the country to citizen parents. Several United States Supreme Court cases confirmed this definition, which Vattel fully developed in Section 212 to 217 of The Law of Nations.”
(b) From my amicus brief in Tisdale v. Obama (4th Circuit Court of Appeals):
“This natural law/law of nations definition was also confirmed by David Ramsay (1789), the early Congresses in 1790, 1795, and 1803, and St. George Tucker (1803). Footnote 7
Footnote 7: Some other sources, among others, are John Locke (1689) (a minor child follows the parents’ condition).”
So what’s your point? What is your definition of a “natural born Citizen” and where did the Founders and Framers obtain it?
Mario, put up or shut up. This is a call out, you Law and Order reject.
All you have done is spout the same circuitous legal jargon, without answering a single question correctly, and honestly.
You need to go back to being a low-budget mob movie extra, This whole lawyer thing is way above your skill set.
dunstvangeet,
It is well documented that the law of nations became a source of American common law. When the U.S. Supreme Court says there is no national common law they are referring to the fact that on the national level we did not adopt the English common law. They are not saying that there is no law of nations common law. Even 9 U.S. Supreme Court justices in Minor told us that a “natural born Citizen” is defined under “common law,” with given the definition it gave, i.e, a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country, could only have been the law of nations/American “common law” definition of the term.
Easy, English Common Law, the same place that they got other terms in the Constitution in. The U.S. Supreme Court has said that any undefined terms should be looked towards English Common Law for their definition.
“The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.” Smith v. Alabama (1888)
Now, I’ve got you. When the U.S. Supreme Court says, “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England… ” What they really mean is exactly the opposite: “That the U.S. adopted something that was distinct from English Common Law as American Common Law.”
Again: “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
No matter how many times you repeat it you cannot get past the fact that the Supreme Court directly said, “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
Ballantine,
You should be embarrassed by your reference to the DWI court. Just think, you and most your coterie on this blog will always have to maintain your anonymity because of the jackass statement that you have made an the postitions that you have argued in public on the meaning of a “natural born Citizen.”
You say that Wong Kim Ark did not recognize any difference between a “natural born Citizen” and a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States.” But here is the Court telling us of this difference when it said that a child, “‘if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle’” (citing and quoting Horace Binney). Id. at 693.
Why? Your clientele are the dregs of society.
You can call us jackass, but your cretinous compatriots are nothing more than bottom feeding neo-fascists, trying to subvert the Constitution and incite a lone wolf – like McVeigh.
I can play the “letters at the end of my name” game, too. “Esquire” is a highfalutin affectation, or a fine magazine – take your pick. I’ll repeat: you and the rest of your lynch mob never heard of Emmerich de Vattel until Leo Donofrio, a third rate lawyer and fifth rate poker player, dug him out of a dustbin. Now, your credulous crowd copies and pastes from each other, what one person picked while glancing at his book, and calling it gospel.
So here’s to you…
Misha Marinsky, FNAO (ta-da)
Oh, and I live in Chinatown, a step up from Hoboken – a one square mile, down-at-the-heels, buckle on the rust belt.
If Mario disagrees with them, they don’t exist….
You quoted the decision from WKA in an effort to prove the Court recognized the difference between a “natural born citizen” and a “14th Amendment ‘citizen of the United States'”. The quote is about children born in the US to foreign citizens says. It says that such a child “if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.”
The citizenship status is equivalent, and it is by operation of the same principle. Not seeing the difference, but it sure is proof that Obama is a NBC.
Kudos.
Dunstvangeet,
Provide for me the source in the English common law from which this statement comes:
“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Minor, at 167-68.
But Mario…over at John’s blog you stated that this statement has NOTHING to do with Presidential eligibility. So now that you’ve provided the reason why this has nothing to do with President Obama’s eligibility, why even bother with it?
But, if you want to be proven wrong again, here you go.
In United States v. Rhodes (1866), Mr. Justice Swayne, sitting in the Circuit Court, said:
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
That’s easy – Right here. See?
Jim,
You did not answer my question which is from where in the English common law does the Minor quote come. The quesiton is very easy and the fact that you refuse to answer tells me that you are intellectually dishonest.
Tell me how Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes (1866) defined “all persons born in the allegiance of the United States.”
All I see is your group simply cut and paste the quote but nobody has yet provided how the court defind the phrase. So please do so now since you contend the quote supports your position. And please no BS answers which I know you will give me anyway.
ballantine,
I hate to tell you but in looking at your latest comments, you have sunk as low as the rest of your clan on here. You used to make legal arguments with of course always your snark comments included. But now you are mostly just junk like the rest of your group. What happened to you?
Minor is no longer valid law, since its ruling was that women cannot vote and they most assuredly can. Supreme Court decisions are not eternal and everlasting-they can be overruled by later courts at which point they are dead. Plessy v. Ferguson-dead; Scott v. Sanford-dead; Minor v. Happersett-dead. It doesn’t matter what the 1875 court did or did not say; it only matters what the 2012 court says.
And the 2012 court sat through 3 days of arguments on the Affordable Care Act. No one on any side of the issue attempted to argue that the act was invalid because of anything to do with the eligibility of the President. The justices all referred to the President in their questions and no one suggested he is illegitimate. None of the rulings even touched on that question.
You are not arguing your case in 1875, but in 2012. Today’s courts are free to ignore anything said in Minor if they wish. And it apppears they do wish. That is the entire story, really.
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! The expert on BS demanding no BS!!! Isn’t that rich! Let me ask you Mario, did you or did you not undercut your Minor position earlier today on Woodman’s blog? Let me remind you what you said:
Mario Apuzzo, Esq. says: “How intellectually dishonest can you get. Maybe Mr. Woodman can quote for us when the Court used “natural born” as part of “natural born Citizen” rather than “natural born subject.””
At which point I gave you 4 sections from WKA stating just that. Your response
Mario Apuzzo, Esq. says: “You were not able to provide any quotes from Wong which show that the majority considered Wong to be a “natural born Citizen.”
The ONLY difference between the sections I cited and your statement was that you had capitalized Citizen. So, I would guess that to you that is important. So, I then showed your statement from Minor which ALSO shows citizen is not capitalized. Therefor, by your own standards, the Minor opinion does NOT have anything to do with Presidential eligibility. Then you put your tail between your legs, ran away and basically said for all the world to see that it is you who are the BS artist. So, let me ask you, since there is absolutely no conflict with the statement in Minor and the statements in WKA, are you just going to put your tail between your legs and run away again or you going to admit the obvious…that WKA was eligible. I bet you run away…it’s what you’re good at!!!
Oops, almost forgot
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Ha! No one can sink lower than Orly Taitz, a miserable refusenik refugee. She and her crowd beat up Arabs for recreation, when not harrassing our President because he has an Arabic name, and has the chutzpah to be fair to both sides.
Jerusalem police launch probe of soccer fans caught attacking Arab workers at mall
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/jerusalem-police-launch-probe-of-soccer-fans-caught-attacking-arab-workers-at-mall-1.420618
Jim,
Are you taking something?
Mario to the cleaners.
Mario is afraid to respond to the fact that Minor is a DEAD, invalid, overturned case that no one in the modern era pays any attention to. His citing of it as somehow still meaningful would be like a modern scientist taking a paper on phlogiston from the 18th century as anythiing more than a historical curiousity. The current Supreme Court doesn’t waste any time on Minor. The only ones who do are birthers.
Mario has no answer for this or anything else.
Scientist,
If the argument is that our courts can just ignore what Minor said and if the courts say that is what Minor said, but I am ignoring it and here are my reasons, then I call live with that.
But that has not been the way this thing has gone down. Rather, it has been nothing but hatred, ridicule, and lies.
I know Mario…you and the rest of the birthers should really stop doing that. Are you doing any more appeals or new filings?
Of course the courts can and do ignore Minor, as they should. They also ignore Scott, Plessy and any other cases that have been overturned and are invalid. You insist on basing your life on a discredited case and then you wonder why you get ridiculed?
This is 2012. Knowledge and ideas evolve. Women have the vote, Blacks can be President, even blacks with foreign fathers That’s progress. Live with it or face ridicule.
The dinosaurs didn’t change and went extinct. You want to be one, just go off somewhere and leave the rest of us to our newfangled internet and airplanes and other products of modern life.
Hatred, lies: Your side.
Ridicule: Our side. Well deserved, I might add.
Oooh. Mario, the punchline in a cheap suit, is at it again I see. He wants to convince us the Courts would have to “ignore” Minor, or “deny” what the decision said, to find BHO eligible. What a goon. He is trying one of his boring, kindergarten-level ploys, setting up a fun-house mirror in front of the facts.
Actually, the Courts have ruled in accordance with Minor, because the decision says nothing to exclude children of alien parents being NBCs. So the courts don’t need to ignore or contradict a damn thing.
Try your feeble mind game on Birfers, Mario. They’re dumb enough to miss you stacking the deck.
It won’t work on the loyal patriotic intelligent Americans here. Only losers will follow a loser.
Guys, we’re getting nowhere with this groomed mental patient in a suit. The Lord God himself could come down and tell Mario he’s wrong, and Mario would defiantly say “Nuh-uh!”, in broken legalese.
The perfect example of survival of the fittest: coyotes. They adapt immediately to whatever environment they are in. More intelligent than wolves, too.
Yep. Pretty much sums up the evolution of the mythology of Birtherism and its limited spread amongst its Cult…
Agreed. That really is all that whole Minor angle amounts to, within the context of this issue…
And then Mario wants the courts to ignore what the Supreme Court has said thousands of times that there is no American Common Law, and declare that American Common Law is based upon a Swiss philosopher, who didn’t actually use the term, and no translation of his work used the term until 10 years after the Constitution was written.
Especially given the fact that if the Law of Nations was American Common Law, then why do we have the 2nd Amendment? Vattel believed that the ruling class should be the only ones with guns. Why do we have the 1st Amendment? Vattel believed in no seperation between church and state, and that the state should have an established religion. Just about every single thing in the Law of Nations flies in the face of various parts of the Constitution, yet, Mario wants us to believe that the real “American Common Law” is the Law of Nations, instead of Blackstone who was quoted 100 times more frequently than Vattel was.
Hey, Mario, “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
Mario: You have cited one case, Wm Smith in 1789, & to this you have added your conclusion that in citing Vattel he must have reasoned Vattel was the best source. This is not evidence: you’ve made no study of Smith’s context & purposes and no study of the frequency of his opinion and that of others. Your comments on Locke do not in any way tie him to your theory. You try to tie him to Vattel, but there we are right back at the beginning of a circular argument.
Mariooooooooooo, come out to playyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
So Putzie, still waiting on an answer to the age old questions of, again Mario,
Do tell, EXACTLY how many cases have you won in this arena?
Do tell, EXACTLY how many court cases in the USA has ANY Birfoon won in this arena?
Do tell, EXACTLY how humiliating was it to lose to a junior associate?
I mean,(if at all possible), face facts, your OPINION, ’cause that is all it is, has no support from anyone other than other racist, bigotted feckwit buffoon Birfoons.
One wonders, how do you sleep at night?
I’m dizzy from listening to Mario, Orly, Klayman and the rest. Such a headache, you wouldn’t believe it.
He has help from Mr. Jack Daniels.
Scientist,
What ever happened to the rule of law?
I was in a Barnes and Noble tonight. There was a gang of young people in the store. They were literally trashing the store, throwing things all over. I came over to help the store attendant who was a young woman. She then threw the gang out. I told her she should call the police. About 10 minutes later the gang came back in. I told another young woman employee that the gang was back in. She said she could not do anything about it. Then I saw the first young employee. I told her that the gang was back in. She told me she made a “deal” with them. The gang then again started to throw stuff all over the place. I told her to call the police. She said there was no police anymore, that by the time she calls them and they arrive the gang will be gone.
misha,
Don’t think that I’m looking for some type of sympathy. I know the character of the group that I am dealing with.
Hey, Mario…
“There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
Here’s some American “common law” that you can all smoke:
“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875).
And then how can we forget Wong Kim Ark:
“Allegiance and protection are, in this connection” (that is, in relation to citizenship),
reciprocal obligations. The one is a compensation for the other: allegiance for protection, and protection for allegiance. . . . At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of [p680] parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.
Minor v. Happersett (1874), 21 Wall. 162, 166-168.
The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898) (citing and quoting Minor).
Scientist,
You talk a big game. But you are not man enough to put your real name to your words. So anything that you or anyone else says on this medium cannot be taken for serious.
So what have we learned from all of this back and forth?
There are two types of citizens, natural born and naturalized. When squarely presented with the argument that there is a third or fourth type, in the context of the challenge to Sen. McCain or to Pres. Obama, no court has held that there are more than two types. No court would consider making citizenship more complicated than that.
And I thought this thread had run its course! Mario, this is the ultimate in empty argumentum ad hominem. It doesn’t matter who any of the commenters on this board are, or even what they are. What matter here are ideas. The words on this thread (along with countless other threads you’ve flailed on), the ideas expressed, and your inability to counter them, will stand remain in the infoverse as a testament to the failure of birtherism. Thanks for contributing to the record, and burnishing the discredit of yourself and your, um, “school of thought.”
This is the part of your very own quote that you seem to keep ignoring. As I’ve mentioned before, the Minor case outright states that it is NOT addressing the issue of “children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents”.
It did NOT address that, because it did not need to in that particular case, as that scenario was outside the scope of that case.
So, as the Minor case is explicitly SILENT on the RELEVANT scenario at hand (jus soli birth, regardless of parental citizenship), it is of ZERO value to you or anyone else arguing against Obama’s NBC status, as Obama was born in HI.
You are just wasting time barking up the wrong tree…
That movie was huge when I was in high school! We use to play the Weisbaden Warriors….We would yell (scream) “Warriors, come out and playyyyyy!” Good times.
Riiiigggghhht. Because, if only the real name was used, you would agree.
Link, please. Certainly there is a story in a paper, or on the web. BTW, I read about your family reunion. The story began, “Among the injured were…”
And I know the characters I’m dealing with, on your side.
Misha Marinsky,
Esq. M.O.U.S.E.FNAOJPotter,
You and your buddies on here like John Woodman on his blog got your butts beat like usual and you try to tell me that I lost.
I love how you all say that the Founders and Framers never heard of Vattel on citizenshp and William Smith in 1789 in open Congress cites Vattet in support of his own claim that he was a “citizen.”
I love how you all cite St. George Tucker as supporting the jus soli English common law rule of Citizenship when it was not even him that made the statement that you ascribe to him and Tucker, on the contrary, said that the civil right to be elected President belonged to children born to ‘citizens.”
I love how you tell us that The Venus was only about domicile, when in a prize case the first thing that the court has to do before it ever gets to the issue of domicle is decide the citizenshp of the parties.
I love the part where you cite and quote the minority jus soli opinion in Inglis by Justice Story and try to pawn it off like it is the decison of the Court when on the contrary, the majority rejected that jus soli basis for citizenship and adopted jus sanguinis.
And I also love how you rely on Lynch, a state case on inheritance of property in New York, to show how that state court decided who was eligible to be President.
I really like the part where your group argues that the Fourteenth Amendment through some ethereal process either repealed or amended the Article II “natural born Citizen” clause when there does not exist one case that so holds.
I really like the part where your group argues that Minor cited to the English common law when it defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country.
I really enjoy seeing you argue that Minor was only about voting when some subsequent U.S. Supreme Court cases, including Wong Kim Ark, cited the case only for citizenship.
I also love your argument that because the constitution is written in the language of the English common law, we are to define a “natural born Citizen” under that law, when the clause “natural born Citizen” does not exist in the language of the English common law.
And I really like the part where you try to show that Wong Kim Ark held Wong to be a “natural born Citizen,” not by being able to provide the holding of the Court that so provides, but by arguing what the dissenting opinion said.
Do you want me to continue?
What shellacking.
Yep. Again, please note…the Court does not say “attention, definition of NBC”, or even “leading constitutional scholars agree with”…..Nope. What did the Court say? That women were not entitled to vote under the Constitution.
You claim to be an expert, so please, tell me, were Minor’s parents’ citizenship papers entered with the Court? If so, please link to them, if not, how did they “know” she was a NBC, according to your definition of the term?
Yes. I have insomnia.
Misha Marinsky,
Esq. M.O.U.S.E.FNAOG,
You and all your crew misstate what citizenship question Minor did not answer. You say that the Court did not decide the question of whether a child born in the country to alien parents is a “natural born Citizen.”
You do not quote the Court on what question it raised, for if you did the quote would include the word “citizen” rather than “natural-born citizen.” Rather, you only paraphrases the Court’s question and ascribes to the Court the use of the clause “natural born Citizen” when it never used that clause in the question it left unanswered. This is at best intellectual dishonesty and at worst fraud upon the courts, the American people, and the historical record.
The truth is that natural law and the law of nations teaches that when American society was created after July 4, 1776, those who created that society (through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution) lost their English “natural born subject” status and became “citizens” of the new free and independent states. The unamended Constitution calls these persons “Citizens of the United States.” Those who were born after July 4, 1776 in the country (the Naturalization Act of 1790 allowed until 1795 also children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents to be considered as “natural born citizens”) to those first “citizens” or were or are born to their descendents are “natural-born citizens.” Hence, the “natural born Citizens” are those who are born in the country to “citizen” parents. This was the definition of a “natural born Citizen” which American “common law” recognized and adopted. Our courts have confirmed that this has been our American “common law” definition of a “natural born Citizen.” So the weight of the these cases along with other sources existing in the historical record (David Ramsay, Thomas Jefferson, Justice James Wilson, Justice William Johnson, Chief Justice John Marshall, St. George Tucker, Justice Joseph Story, House Speaker Rep. Landon Cheves, Rep. A. Smyth, Rep. John Bingham, to name a few), support this American “common law” definition of a “natural born Citizen” and not any English “common law” one.
A nation can decide to add to its “natural born Citizens” by naturalization. In the United States, “citizens” are added to the “natural born Citizens” by the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties. These positive laws call these “citizens” the same thing that the original Constitution calls them, i.e., “citizens of the United States.” Because naturalization also creates “citizens,” the “natural born Citizen” definition includes children born in the country to parents who become “citizens” under any one of these positive laws and the U.S.-born children of their descendents. This includes parents who become “citizens of the United States” after their birth. This means that the “natural born Citizen” clause includes children born in the United States who are born to “citizen” parents who were not descendants of the original “citizens.”
Minor confirmed this long-standing definition of a “natural born Citizen,” which had already been confirmed by the historical record and previous U.S. Supreme Court cases which I cited, and said there was no doubt as to who fell into that class. Given the limited parameters of the definition, only those who were born in the country to “citizen” parents were included. The Court added that “there have been doubts” as to whether children born in the country to alien parents were included in the “citizen” class. So, the truth is that the only question that Minor did not decide is the question of whether a child born in the country to alien parents after July 4, 1776 but before the passing of the Fourteenth Amendment was a “citizen” and whether the Fourteenth Amendment made that child a “citizen of the United States” thereunder. Hence, the big lie is in telling us that Minor left open the question of who is a “natural born Citizen” when in fact it only left open the question of who was a “citizen of the United States” (those wanting to be “citizens” and therefore initial members of American society and who could not possibly be second or subsequent generation Americans making them “natural born Citizens”) both before and after the passing of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Putz is not the first or the last loser crank who never amounted to anything IRL but keeps declaring victory on the internet with their idiotic claims. Every rabid, aggressive astrologer, chemtrail believer, 9/11 truther, perpetual motion inventor etc. etc. displays the same pathological behavior pattern.
Linda,
Do you realize that that was Wong Kim Ark telling us what Minor held?
No, you’re wrong. Mario did amount to a hill of beans.
I’ve been talking with someone I thought was an astronomer. Uh, oh.
Misha Marinsky,
Esq. M.O.U.S.E.FNAOJoe Acerbic,
The difference between me and that group you listed is that my proof of your shellacking is on these pages.
Ok, I realize I may be in the minority, but I trust we are all above name calling and personal references. Comments about Mario’s record, cleared for ridicule. His haircut, no. His very own, cottage industry birth-mobile, you betcha. His private life, shouldn’t be.
That is it for me on that topic. Like a superstar college basketball player, I am one and down.
I see that Mario continues to lie and misrepresent what Vattel said based on a single sentence.
I won’t bother restating what Vattel actually said here again, it would be a waste of time. Suffice it to say that Obama is unarguably an indigene under Vattel’s system (applicable only to Switzerland anyway).
Vattel only weakens Mario’s position, NOT bolster it.
Mario lies about Vattel, just as he appears to lie about everything else.
May I point out again that Mario who is prompt to respond to even the slightest snark ALWAYS remain totally silent when I (and others) discuss right in front of him (as it were) the fact that his real client(s), ie: the people paying him, are the KKK or a similar type of organization.
I don’t know about any of you, but if I was as thin-skinned as the Meretricious One (and boy, is he thin-skinned!), and NOT in the employ of the KKK, I would immediately denounce and refute it at the top of my lungs.
I rest my case.
Absolutely no difference. I once debated a “financial astrologer” and found his old predictions on another forum that were carelessly not vague enough and so they could be soundly debunked using subsequent stock data. Of course the kook only claimed that it all showed how right he was, just like The Putz is doing.
Hey, Mario,
Supreme Court: “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England…”
As a child of the ’80s, I’m partial to the Twisted Sister album that was based on that phrase from that movie…
Because you *have* lost Mario. EVERY time in court. As well as, every time on any non-Birther blog you venture onto. Without your irrationally-hate based ODS syncophants to slobber over your ravings, you are nothing but a joke for easy mockery. You only serve to defile yourself, outside of your heavily protected Birther enclaves. Beyond that, you are just another crazy nut spouting nonsense and easily called out on the carpet for it…
So yeah, all you can do when defeated is run away and declare victory in your little mind. But in the real world, you are an abysmal failure and a sad joke…and no matter how hard you try to pretend, you can’t escape that reality…
Again, you are just spouting your own novel nonsense Mario. No court case or law actually says what you say. All the courts and the Congressional Reserarch reports have plainly told you that you are WRONG. You’ve LOST every time.
Reality simply doesn’t agree with you and your citations don’t back up what you claim. You are a fraud and a fool and nothing more. An inconsequential failure in the greater scheme of history, whose attempts at furthering a xenophobic propaganda effort has only found a foothold amongst those who already hold such dark views…and no further.
Your entire argument is FALSE, as it misconstrues what the relationship between Citizen and the subset known as Natural Born Citizen in the first place. Hence, why you always fail and get nowhere. You are merely making up nonsense.
ALL who are BORN citizens are NATURAL BORN CITIZENS. The ONLY other way to obtain US Citizenship is via the Naturalization process. NO person who is BORN a Citizen is Naturalized. BOTH Natural Born Citizens and Naturalized Citizens are Citizens of the United States. That really is all there is to it and ALL laws and COURT rulings fit within that context. It really is as simple as that.
Gee Mario, why are YOU the “only one” who sees things that way…when EVERYONE else sees JUST THE OPPOSITE… I guess you are “special”…
But hey, keep living in the fantasy land of your own delusional mind…back in reality, the rest of us will continue to wake up every day to see Obama serve his term(s) as President, as he was lawfully elected to do so.
Lupin, as always, point well taken.
I don’t understand. I go away for a few days and come back to this?
Mario, you petulant clown, please go find something useful to do with your life.
Don’t you have any personal pride at all? If you really enjoy this sort of thing so much, I’m sure there are plenty of leather clad ladies in darkened rooms in New Jersey that would love to humiliate you to your hearts content (for a small fee).
Apuzzo’s brother from another mother:
“. . . just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be Constitutional does not make it so.”
– Rand Paul
Were the “gang” members natural born citizens, citizens, Citizens, naturalized citizens or non-citizens? Talk to Gov Christie and tell him to increase funding for the local cops and pay for it by a small tax increase on the Wall Street crooks. In case you think this is a new problem there were gangs in your beloved 19th century too and they did a lot worse than throw books around a store. Go see “Gangs of New York”. It was made by a great Italian-American (unlike you) by the name of Martin Scorsese.
And that is ALL that Minor said. Anything else is simply the personal opinions of some long dead white dudes. Not binding on anyone. Moreover, this ignominious ruling was overturned, sending Minor to the dustbin of history along with such terrible decisions as Scott v Sanford, Plessy v Ferguson, Bush v Gore and, hopefully soon, Citizens United.
By fixating on Minor, Mario is basically iinsulting the 150 million women in the US and probably the other 3.5 billion around the world. A shameful man. If he’s married, I wonder how his wife puts up with him.
How to quickly skip over Mario’s comments in Google Reader.
Absolutely, if you recall my comments above, I want you to dig as deep as you can. Get it all on the record, get sillier and sillier. Augur it in, bub. You do realize you’re giving it away for free, right? Just in that comment you throw out 10 disconnected, errant ideas. Again proving another point of mine, that you have no direct counter to arguments made against you. When directly challenged on A, you ramble about B, C, and D … and you’ve yet to make a coherent thesis.
Elsewhere here, I’ve mused that birthers are in such denial that they are literally operate backward in time. By ignoring the concept of precedent, you’re convincing that I’m right. Law evolves over time. Yet you insist on working backwards, as if your “special” interpretations of older cases and writings trump what currently on the books. If you believe that older ideas were better or that cases were decided wrongly, fine, go to court and try to get them overturned. Good luck; you need to load up SCOTUS with likeminded justices and reverse 150 years of opinions to get your way, which will take an army of shill lawyers pumping ‘test cases into the system … but hey, no one said it would be easy. Until then, so long as you pretend that any court is going to agree with you that interpretations never adopted in the first place, selected (or invented!) solely because you like’em, are somehow operative, you will lose.
You’re looking for a magic reset button. There isn’t one. Unwinding precedent is the work of decades. Get crackin’. Don’t pretend you’re right, make yourself right. Until, please be honest. Just say, “This isn’t how it is, but this is how I believe it should be and why.” Operate honestly, and transparently. Try it, you might like it. Start by being honest with yourself.
I love how you have lost every single case … 😆
Yeah. I mean strip away all of the superfluous legalese from Mario’s comments, and they’re quite similar to Rand’s.
Exactly. I would be interested in your (or anyone else’s) comments on the following thought experiment-Let’s supppose that the entire cast of the Founding Fathers appeared and said, as one, “No, we never intended for someone like Barack Obama to be President”. Or, conversely, if they said, “We absolutely intended that the country would evolve so that one day someone like him could be President. It’s a great day for America”. Personally, I think the second is much more likely, but either way, does it matter?
Because there are 220 years of history between then and now and society has changed and the law changed with it. If the US still exists in 3008, does anyone seriously propose that the law should not change in that millenium? People alive today have an absoulte right and duty to make their own decisions. My kids are adults. We raised them with good values, but they make their own decisons now and live with the consequences.
The bottom line is -Minor doesn’t say what Mario claims and even if it did, courts and people today are perfectly free to say differently.
The first is much more likely. I am pretty sure none of the founding fathers would have been happy with a black man as President. Even if they some of them didn’t agree with the concept of slavery, they were all never-the-less men of their time.
Not one iota. None of the founding fathers were of the belief that time stands still.
Exactly, if we did everything the way that the founding fathers did, out of some misplaced worship, as is with the case with birthers, we would all own slaves, and wear powdered wigs.
And how exactly has every court where you presented this b.s. ruled?
Mario, save your delusional pronouncements of being right for our own board. No court has come anywhere near to accepting your nut bag arguments, and in fact have called them frivolous. That, my friend, is the shellacking. That fact that you think you can say the same lies over and over, and put on an air of arrogance doesn’t change the fact that you have had the opportunity to make your case before real judges. In your cases, and where you have submitted amicus briefs….very, VERY lenghty amicus briefs….and how have the court treated your arguments EVERY single time you’ve presented them? We already know….but hey, I supose in Super Mario World, how the courts actually rule on your arguments doesn’t matter. What matters is that you keep stamping your feet claiming to be right that matters.
Well, I see you have given up your silly “citizen of the United States argument clearly being checkmated ibto having no response but insults. It was of your dumbest arguments which is saying much.
Now of course you ignore all the provisions from Wong Kim Ark defining what a natural born citizen is and try to cherry pick the Binney quote to argue that they weren’t using the English common law after all. Of course, Binney paper was from 1854 has hence had nothng to do with the 14th Amendment. Duh. Second, Binney’s paper was on the English common law being the law in the United States. Only you would cite a quote on the English common law being our law to argue that the English common law was not our law. Can’t make this stuff up. If childern of citizen and children of ailiens are citizens by the same pricniple, i.e, the English common law, they are obviously the same type of citizen. You are trying to turn a quote saying they are the same, to mean they are actually different. Talk about desperate. Of course, Binney tells us himself that natural born subject and citizen mean the same thing, i.e., born within the limits and jurisdiction:
“But the law of France rejects the principle of the English law, and of our own laws, that birth within the limits and jurisdiction of France, makes a Frenchman, or a natural-born citizen or subject of France, absolutely,…” Horace Binney, American Law Register, 2 Amer.Law Reg. 206 (February 1854).
And , Binney tells us what cictizen of the United States meant in 1854:
“the citizens of the United States are, with the exceptions before mentioned, such only as are either born or made so, born within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States or naturalized by the authority of law, either in one of the States before the Constitution or, since that time, by virtue of an act of the Congress of the United States.”
Ever get tired of being wrong?
Obviously, he does not.
Of course, it is quite sad you don’t point out that the sole reason Gray quote Minor was to show that Justice Milleer and the rest of the Slaughterhouse court was committed to a view on the citizenship status of children of aliens because, as everyone understands, the Minor court expressly declined to address their status. So a citation made for the purpose of pointed out the Minor court was uncommitted is used by you to try to pretend the court was committeed. It is asounding that you cite quotations without looking at why the quotation was made. But that is what you do.
So Mario, exactly which B&N store was this one you saw all this mayhem gong on in?
As a matter of interest, as a supposedly upright member of the legal community why didn’t you pull out your cellphone and call the police yourself?
I thinkyou need to look in the mirror. Look how many of your comments here are nothing but petty insults. So tell us, did Wong Kim Ark say natural born citizen and natural born subject meant the same thing or not? For example:
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Birth and allegiance go together. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England. . . . We find no warrant for the opinion that this great principle of the common law has ever been changed in the United States. It has always obtained here with the same vigor, and subject only to the same exceptions, since as before the Revolution.”
So tell us, did Wong Kim Ark say natural born citizen and natural born subject meant the same thing or not? Are you retarded? Do you want me to cite all the other quotes that say the same thing, that persons such as WKA was “born in the allegiance,” that our common law was the same as England and on and on. Oh, wait, the parts of the case that say things you don’t like is to be ignored. Of course. This is getting sadder and sadder. Perhaps it is time you re-define another term as you are clearly running out of argument.
Yep.
Mario, you’ll never be able to do anything about this Vattelated citizenship nonsense of yours. It’s just not going anywhere, and it’s never going to be more than an obscure footnote when the birthers have become just another historical oddity. But you could do something about that haircut. You should pick your battles better. I’m just trying to help.
Shellacking? BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh Mario, if it wasn’t for the entertainment factor, everybody would just ignore you! There is no question that the President is eligible and no question that he will appear on every ballot across the nation come November.
Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor: “All of our Presidents have, to date, been born in the 50 states. Notably, President Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, and so is clearly a natural born citizen.”
I agree. There are many conspiracy theories that become, as you describe, “an obscure footnote” in history. Once Barack Obama is out of office, the political money fueling the birther movement will dry up, and there will be no motivation to fuel the crazy theories that somehow Obama could be removed from office.
Some conspiracy theories are long-lived, but that’s because the things they allege continue. Once Barack Obama is out of office, birtherism is gone. (I should note that JFK assassination conspiracy theories continue, but I think that’s a special case.)
It could start drying up before that. If Romney chooses Rubio or Jindal as his running mate you’ll see it all start drying up real fast because the pubs will no longer be able to be wishy-washy about their eligibility. And Romney REALLY needs Rubio..
If anyone is wondering why Mario is being so quiet, it is because he is looking through his past posts to find things to copy/pasta.
yeah, keep tellin’ yourself that, doc!
</birf>
However that may be, it is fairly clear that G, and many people here, are esteemed Supreme Court justices of the highest caliber in history compared to your record and arguments.
I just assumed it was because he was hung over after last night’s bender.
My money is on Rubio. The electoral map is really against Romney (trailing in most swing states, including Florida). If he can take Florida out of the lean Obama column into a safe Romney, he at least has a chance come November. That and perhaps he can do slightly less horribly than he currently is witht he Hispanic vote.
Professor Reality Check,
Have a wonderful time at the beauty pageant tonight. Happy judging.
I also heard that many of your university students will be there judging you.
Keith,
Maybe your glasses (or mind) need a little adjustment. Where do you see anything about a “black” man in the definition of a “natural born Citizen” which is a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country?
Mario: I never said that the Founders & their associates “never heard” of Vattel. I said that one reference to Vattel by one person does not constitute evidence that Vattel had an authoritative influence in the minds of the persons at the Constitutional Convention. Furthermore, your claim that Smith would have chosen only the best evidence in his defence is a mistake: the correct version is that he probably chose the evidence HE considered best. His choice is not authoritative. As I’ve never said anything about the other issues, there’s no reason to lump me in with the others, except that such a move is one of your many techniques for avoiding the force of arguments against your claims
OK, so if 1/3 to 1/2 of the Republicans are birthers, and Rubio is ineligible (according to them), does that mean that they have to vote Libertarian or some other third party? Would a Rubio candidacy insure an Obama win by a staggering margin?
Bennett,
I am not interested in debating with ships that fly no flags.
Lupin says that I lie about Vattel and that he actually weakens my position that a “natural born Citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country. Lupin says that Vattel supports Obama’s claim that he is a “natural born Citizen.” Others on this blog say that I am crazy for arguing all this Vattel stuff. Well, the historical and legal record shows that I am correct and Lupin and others on here are wrong. Let’s take a look:
(1) John Locke, The Two Treatises of Civil Government (T. Hollis ed. London 1764) (London 1689). For Locke, the English common law did not influence his ideas on how to define citizenship in a society but natural law did. Locke’s republican concept of citizenship, which depended upon the citizenship of a child’s parents, was not drawn from a monarchial system of government or the English common law but rather from natural law. We can also see that British subjectship, based on feudal notions of birth on the soil as being the determining factor for allegiance and subjectship, did not fit at all into Locke’s concept of citizenship by consent which could only be expressed through a child’s parents. Id. Chapter VI, Of Paternal Power, Section 52-76. http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=222&chapter=16297&layout=html#a_704439 .
(2) Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed.
Neuchatel 1758). Vattel requires that for a child to be a natural born citizen, at the time of birth, the child must be born to “citizen” parents. Vattel states:
“The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”
Id. Sec. 212 Citizens and natives.
(3) Founder and historian David Ramsay in 1789. He said that citizenship “as a natural right, belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776….” Id. at 6. Hence, birthright citizenship after July 4, 1776 was reserved only for the children of “citizens.”
(4) Representative William Smith. In his own defense during the Smith-Ramsay debate of 1789, William Smith quotes Emerich de Vattel:
“The Doctor says the circumstance of birth does not make a citizen–This I also deny. Vattel says, ‘The country of the father is that of the children, and these become citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ [footnote omitted] I was born a Carolinian, and I defy the Doctor with all his ingenuity, arithmetical or political, to say at what moment I was disenfranchised—at what moment I lost my citizenship. The revolution which took place in America made me a citizen of America under the new government, though then resident at Geneva. I never by any act disqualified myself. There was never a moment when I was a citizen of any other country.”
1 The Documentary History of the First Federal Elections 1788-1790, p. 178-79 (ed. M. Jensen and R. Becker 1976). http://books.google.com/books?id=sxS00wE2l5kC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=%22Manner+of+Acquiring+the+Character+and+Privileges+of+a+Citizen+of+the+United+States%22+ramsay&source=bl&ots=RygvzaFnxH&sig=jbTmahSEVoMCMu6G4mhx9NiPqvg&hl=en&ei=FD62S-LhBsOclgeL2K1Y&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=vattel&f=false
Now this is a member of the House of Representative quoting Vattel on citizenship in 1789 in his own defense. You would think that in defending himself, he would have cited and quoted the most authoritative source on the subject matter. Wow, Smith picked Vattel. It surely is telling that Smith picked Vattel and did not pick William Blackstone in his own defense.
5. U.S. Supreme Court Justice James Wilson in 1791. He said that a “citizen” could be either naturalized or be the son of a “citizen” upon reaching age 21 or 22.
(6) St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries (1803) http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm .
“3. Civil rights, taken in a strict and confined sense, as contradistinguished from natural and social rights, are such as appertain to a man as a citizen or subject, of this, or that, particular state or country; in his private and individual capacity as a free agent, and member of the body politic or state, in respect to the state or body politic; and contradistinguished from such as might be due to him as a magistrate, legislator, judge, or other public agent, character, or functionary. The right of electing, and being elected to, any public office or trust, may be considered as among the most important of these rights. These civil rights may be inherited, or acquired, in the United States: they are acquired by a foreigner who is naturalized; they are inherited by all whose parents, at the time of their birth, were citizens.
***
Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.”
St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries (1803) http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm .
(7) The James Madison Administration in 1811 regarding James McClure. We find this statement made by Publius and printed in The Alexandia Herald on October 7, 1811:
“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. . . . A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”
This case reveals how the James Madison Administration interpreted and applied the Naturalization Act of 1802. This case also illustrates how U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson concluded that James McClure, born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785 to a father who was a British subject but who naturalized in South Carolina on February 20, 1786 when his son was dwelling in the United States, was a “Citizen of the United States” under the Naturalization Act of 1802. Justice Johnson did not find that he was a “natural born Citizen.” This case shows that McClure did not earn his citizenship by simply being born in the United States, for his father was not a “citizen” at the time of his birth. Rather, it was his father’s naturalization done while he was a minor and dwelling in the United States which also made him a “Citizen of the United States” (not a “natural born Citizen”) like his father.
(8) The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814). Chief Justice John Marshall, concurring and dissenting for other reasons, cites Vattel and provides his definition of natural born citizens and said:
“Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”
(9) Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 3 Pet. 99, 7 L.Ed. 617 (1830). The case involved a dispute over the inheritance of real estate in the State of New York. The majority of the Court, which included Chief Justice Marshall, in a decision written by Justice Thompson, prefaced its decision regarding citizenship by explaining that
“This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established. . . .
Id. at 120. The Court held:
“The facts disclosed in this case, then, lead irresistibly to the conclusion that it was the fixed determination of Charles Inglis the father, at the declaration of independence, to adhere to his native allegiance. And John Inglis the son must be deemed to have followed the condition of his father, and the character of a British subject attached to and fastened on him also, which he has never attempted to throw off by any act disaffirming the choice made for him by his father.”
Id. at 124. The Court went on to further hold:
“2. If born after 4 July, 1776, and before 15 September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority, which never having been done, he remains a British subject and disabled from inheriting the land in question.”
Id. at 126.
(10) Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830). Justice Story provided same Vattelian definition without citing Vattel, stated: “If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.”
11. Justice Daniels in Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393 (1856). Justice Daniels cited and quoted Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen.”
“By this same writer it is also said: ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society, bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority; they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or natural-born citizens are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. As society [p477] cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.’ Again: ‘I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen, for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country. The inhabitants, as distinguished from citizens, are foreigners who are permitted to settle and stay in the country.’ Vattel, Book 1, cap. 19, p. 101.” Id. at 476-77.
(12) Rep. John Bingham, in the House on March 9, 1866, in commenting on the Civil Rights Act of 1866 which was the precursor to the Fourteenth Amendment stated Vattel’s definition thus:
“[I] find no fault with the introductory clause, which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen. . . . ” John A. Bingham, (R-Ohio) US Congressman, March 9, 1866 Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866), Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes (1866).
Bingham had stated the same thing in 1862:
“Does the gentleman mean that any person, born within the limits of the Republic, and who has offended against no law, can rightfully be exiled from any State or from any rood of the Republic? Does the gentleman undertake to say that here, in the face of the provision in the Constitution, that persons born within the limits of the Republic, of parents who are not the subjects of any other sovereignty, are native-born citizens, whether they be black or white? There is not a textbook referred to in any court which does not recognise the principle that I assert.” Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 407 (1862).
(13) Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875). Even though the Fourteenth Amendment had already been passed, Minor did not rely upon that amendment to define either a “natural born Citizen” or a “citizen.” Rather, it applied the American “common-law” definition of those terms. Providing Vattel’s law of nations definition of a “natural-born citizen” without citing Vattel, and not in any way referring to the English common law, it laid down the definition of a “natural-born citizen” as follows:
“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.”
Id., at 167-68.
14. United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898). The Court only had to decide whether Wong was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not have to decide whether Wong was a “natural-born citizen.” The majority cited and quoted Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” which is a paraphrase of Vattel’s Section 212 and which was a child born in a county to “citizen” parents. Justice Gray acknowledged the difference between an Article II “natural born Citizen” and a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen” “at birth” when he said that a child “‘if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle’” (citing and quoting Horace Binney). Id. at 693. In 1854, Binney informed what he thought a “citizen of the United States” meant: “the citizens of the United States are, with the exceptions before mentioned, such only as are either born or made so, born within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States or naturalized by the authority of law, either in one of the States before the Constitution or, since that time, by virtue of an act of the Congress of the United States.” He included naturalized citizens into the “citizens of the United States” which tells us that he was not defining a “natural born Citizen.” His definition was also limited to a “citizen of the United States” and did not include a “natural born Citizen.” The dissent at 679-80 found that Wong, who was born in the U.S. to alien parents who could not naturalize to become U.S. citizens, under the national law of the United States which was the law of nations, was an alien.
Now, what is your evidence that the Founders and Framers relied upon the English common law to define an Article II “natural born Citizen” rather than Vattel?”
Reading this article and the responses is like watching a game of Whac-A-Mole. The Putz pops up, spews his nonsense, and a poster promptly strikes him down with a super-sized mallet (more like Thor’s Mjölnir). But since Mario is just comprised of hot air, he never stays down. He just gathers steam (aka, super charged hot air), and re-spews.
As an observer, I thank all the Mjölnir wielders. You are both educational to those of us who are capable of learning (unlike Mario) and entertaining. What more could you ask for?
It’s possible they could split the party. Romney’s entourage is probably trying to access the obvious advantages of Rubio on the ticket (young conservative, hopes to sway the Hispanic vote and garner FL’s electoral votes) versus outraging the birfs. Given the option of two “ineligible” choices, I would suspect the birfs would vote their ticket. Maybe Ron and Rand Paul could run together? That would be interesting.
Mr. Apuzzo,
Four of your recent comments were flagged as spam by the third-party spam filter this site uses. Non-spam comments are flagged sometimes — regrettable, but it happens. The comments are since approved.
However, the comment cited below is skating very close to the edge of violating a site policy against personal information release. If I were the target of the remark, I would consider it an implicit threat. This kind of behavior will really put you in moderation, and has resulted in bans before.
As much as I like having you comment here because you are one of the characters in the story, I don’t like it enough to tolerate this kind of misbehavior.
Why bother, you’ll just ignore it. Why not answer this one instead?
Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor: “All of our Presidents have, to date, been born in the 50 states. Notably, President Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, and so is clearly a natural born citizen.”
There it is Mario…black and white. You are wrong. What is your background in constitutional law that you would know better than Justice O’Connor?
Dr. Con,
Talking about judging, I hope that you never become the judge of anything.
So beautiful, Misha.
What is really pathetic is that the person I am certain Mario is trying to attack does not even comment here to my knowledge. Mario thinks he is being cute but he should quit listening to people who do not have clue what they are talking about. He has embarrassed himself enough with his misunderstandings of the law and history and his court failures without adding petty personal attacks and threats against an innocent person to his resume.
Mario, easy, the United States Supreme Court:
“The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
Only if you never become a lawyer.
…too late.
Okay, only if you never become a bad lawyer, who doesn’t understand the law.
…Well, I guess you’re SOL.
It is very telling that someone who isn’t even in law, knows it better than someone who is.
No, putting Rubio on the ticket would not hurt Romney by any significant amount. Reason is, the Vatellist or two-citizen birthers, for all their talk about Rubio’s ineligibility, hate Obama far too muc to be put off by the presence of someone they must. to be logically consistent, consider ineligible. They’ll dream up all kinds of rationales, such as it’s better to have an ineligible VP than an inelegible president, because the VP may never become president, therefore there won’t be any official acts of his to require the magic reset button.
Please explain why anyone alive today should care? I mean this totally sincerely. The law today is not controlled by the imputed beliefs of long-dead persons, however illustrious, but on what the courts consider the law in 2012. No court is obligated to define a term the way you “think” the Founders and Framers did, nor are they even obligated to define it as the actual Founders and Framers did.
Here is what courts today consider that term to mean, as you know very well from your smack-downs by several of them-someone who acquired citizenship at birth, generally by birth in the US, but also, most likely, by birth abroad to a US citizen parent. In addition to every single judge in 130 state and federal cases, this is the position expressed by retired Justice Sandra Day O’Connor and there is not the slightest hint that even one of those on the bench now disagrees with her. Now maybe they are all wrong and you’re right (p<0.000000000001), but they are judges and you ain't, so they rule and you drool.
The polls those numbers come from have generally asked where the President was born. The 2-citizen parents types are a minority sect.
SSDD. Those cases don’t support your premise. The Founders grew up under English law and many were lawyers who practiced under English law. In addition, the Courts have ruled that English common law must be looked to for terms not defined in the Constitution.
If you truly believe those cases apply and that WKA is not precedent for NBC, where are all the decisions supporting your theory which occurred after 1898? Your inability to offer anything post WKA is evidence you are that it is precedent for NBC that you are wrong.
Scientist,
Jack Maskell and you (and your whole group) say that “natural born Citizen” means any person who becomes a “citizen” “at birth.” The fundamental problem with your theory is that it does not take into account the word “natural.” Your “at birth” can account for “born,” but what happens to “natural?” If you want to use your “at birth” in place of “born,” the clause would still have to read “natural at birth citizen.” What that means is that the person has to be a “citizen” from the moment of birth, but only by natural means, i.e., by no positive law. So if any person is made an “at birth citizen” by any positive law, that person cannot be a “natural at birth citizen.” The Fourteenth Amendment, Congressional Acts, and treaties are all positive laws. So any person becoming an “at birth citizen” by virtue of any one of those laws is not a “natural born Citizen.” Now you can understand why Minor said that Viriginia Minor did not need the Fourteenth Amendment or any other law to be a “citizen” or a “natural born Citizen.”
Except for on minor detail in the Minor case, Mario…
“Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it provides6 that ‘no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,’7 and that Congress shall have power ‘to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.’ Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”
The court you cite says exactly that, born a citizen and you’re eligible to be President. No positive BS or any other crap you pull out of your *ss.
If by group, you mean all living judges in the US and possibly the entire planet, OK.
How many births today are truly by natural means?
All citizenship involves laws. The existence of countries is a matter of law. Why are US borders where they are rather than somewhere else? Only as a result of treaties which are “laws”. They don’t even follow natural features in many places. I drive from Albany to Montreal frequently and the border sits in the middle of fields-no river, or mountain marks the spot. Purely a construct of laws. Not natural in the slightest. So a person is born American or Canadian as a result of where laws put the border.
Without laws and treaties, the US would not exist and no one would be a citizen of this or any country. All nation-states are a human aftifact and a fairly recent one at that.
You have many dumb arguments and this among the dumbest.
The authors of the clause were very familiar with the term “natural born subject” and had used it all their lives. Everyone knew exactly what that meant from English common law. On the other hand you could choose to believe that they changed the meaning of a term with which everyone was familiar and failed to tell anyone they were doing that. The latter would be something you might believe if you had an overwhelming hatred for the current occupant of the White House and had deluded yourself into believing something ridiculous on its face.
Yep. Again, please note the Court does not say that NBC was defined in the Minor, only that women were not entitled to vote under the Constitution.
You still have answered my questions. Were Minor’s parents’ citizenship papers entered with the Court? If so, please link to them, if not, how did they “know” she was a NBC, according to your definition of the term?
Also, you have said that a “natural born Citizen” is not a subset of a “Citizen of the United States” and that a “Citizen of the United States” is not eligible for the presidency. Then, by your definition a “natural born Citizen” is precluded from serving in Congress.
The Constitution states that Representatives and Senators must be a “Citizen of the United States” with a capital “C”. Your analogy that like the status of being 25 and 30 years old, it is only a minimun doesn’t fly. The Constitution expressly states those are minimums.
Hold do you explain your view if “Citizen of the United States” is not eligible for the presidency, and accordingly, NBCs must not be eligible for Congress.
Jim,
You are begging the question.
Minor said “natural-born citizen,” not “born citizen.”
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Minor agrees with me, not you.
Oh, heck no! It just means it will be time to switch up the tune a bit. They’ve invented enough silly “Obama isn’t a Real American” memes to be able to drop them as needed and still be covered. They already have memes in direct conflict, so any excuse to drop a few might actually clear up the picture and serve to strengthen birtherism into a cohesive, “alternative” narrative. (Finally!)
Or they can play some winger word games. For instance, birthers love to say they are looking for one “honest” judge … meaning one willing to “correct” a couple centuries of errant jurisprudence. Whether the policies and laws in question are right or wrong for whatever reason(s) according to whoever, any judge willing to make such a dramatic shift would be the most activist judge ever!
And wingers have been preaching for year about the evils of activist judicializing.
Thus, they look for an “honest” one instead> 😉
Then how is Minor a natural born citizen? You say via the Constitution, but then go on to say others cannot be NBC via the 14th Amendment, which is of course, a part of the Constitution. Natural, in natural born citizen, means not naturalized.
If no positive law can apply, then by your rationale, no one is a natural born citizen.
Scientist,
What law did Minor apply to define “citizen” and “natural born Citizen?” Where did that law come from?
The Constitution says “natural born Citizen,” not “natural born Citizen of the United States.” The Framers gave the term universality to show that one was a “citizen” of a society that made up a nation called the United States of America. This is why Minor said “born in a country.”
Jim,
You said that this statement proves that Mr. Obama is a “natural born Citizen:”
“Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor: ‘All of our Presidents have, to date, been born in the 50 states. Notably, President Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, and so is clearly a natural born citizen.’”
Do you know the difference between a sufficient and necessary condition?
Reality Check,
Supreme Court Justice James Wilson signed both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. In 1791 he made the following statement:
“English law has its roots in Anglo-Saxon customs, which were too firmly established to be completely broken by the Norman Conquest and still form the basis of their common law today. In 1068, having at last reduced the country to submission, William set to work to establish a Roman government on a firm and lasting basis. Roman law, the legal system of ancient Rome is now the basis of civil law, one of the main European legal systems…
I know that the term citizen is often applied to one of the more numerous party—to one of the people: and I shall be obliged to take the description of a citizen from the character which he supports as one of the people. But you will easily perceive, that the same person may, at different times, act or be viewed in different characters; and though his description be taken from one of them, the account of his duties and of his rights too may, on a particular occasion, be referred to the other. This I have chosen to do, rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification. Besides, the expression is frequently employed also in the sense in which I now use it. “Generally speaking,” says the great political authority, Aristotle, “a citizen is one partaking equally of power and of subordination.”
A citizen then—to draw his description as one of the people—I deem him, who acts a personal or a represented part in the legislation of his country. He has other rights ; but his legislative I consider as his characteristic right. In this view, a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union : for the members of the house of representatives in the national legislature are chosen, in each state, by electors, who, in that state, have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. In this view, a citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen…
You will be pleased to hear, that, with regard to this as well as to many other subjects, we have renewed, in our governments, the principles and the practice of the ancient Saxons.”
We can see that Wilson tell us that the Founders and Framers chose “citizen” over “subject” and intentionally did not use “natural born subject” because a “natural born Citizen” had a different meaning.
…and there go all the irony meters again.
You have an incredible habit of adding words that aren’t there and subtracting ones that are. The Minor Court said “The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens”
Firstly, it says “At common-law, …which the framers of the Constitution were familiar…” That common law was the English common law.
Secondly, it says “of parents who were its citizens”. It does not say “of TWO parents who were its citizens”.
Thirdly, it says “children…became…upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens…” It says they are citizens at birth, not your “C” Citizen and it then equates citizenship at birth with natural born citizen, despite your recent arguments to the contrary. (If you don’t believe natural born citizen means citizen at birth, check you trusty-dusty Black’s Law Dictionary.)
Fourthly, “Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.” Again, it says “citizen”, the same term it used the children of citizens, not something different.
Lastly, “…there have been doubts… For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts.” The Court punted. It specifically stated that it was not addressing the citizenship of children born to non-citizens.
Why you think this has any bearing on Obama’s eligibility is beyond reason.
Want a natural citizen? Shop at Whole Foods. This is getting tedious.
And don’t forget this contingency:
“Macduff was from his mother’s womb
Untimely ripped.”
Now what?
Joe Acerbic,
Do you know the difference between a sufficient and necessary condition, sufficient condition, and necessary condition?
In that quote, Wilson did not say either “natural born citizen” or “natural born subject”. He did say “This I have chosen to do, rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification. Why would a man who believed this use “natural born” at all, since it was a known phrase in the Colonies?
“Do you know the difference between a sufficient and necessary condition?”
I know that former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor is not a delusional and hate driven birther bigot and failed attorney from a dark hole in New Jersey.
I NEVER said any such thing. However, when weighing the opinion of a Supreme Court Justice versus that of an ambulance-chasing lawyer on matters of the Constitution, I would give MUCH more weight to the Supreme Court Justice.
I sure do! I also know what “Without merit” means when a Judge tells a lawyer you’re full of BS.
Man, if only the Framers hadn’t misremembered to put the word “Parents” or maybe thrown in a “born to Citizens” or “born of Citizens” or perhaps “begotten unto birther-approved persons” in the Constitutions, they really could have cleared this whole thing up. Boy, did those Founders really let us down.
… and unless we can trust De Putz to have channeled the unified spirit of the Framers (they were all in one accord about everything, right?), then we are right back to “natural born citizens [of what]”. Really, what is so hard about reading the text right before your eyes? And understand basic concepts of hierarchy?
And again, this isn’t about preferences or wishes, it’s about what’s operative.
Justice O’Connor said Obama is clearly a natural born citizen. What part of that are you disagreeing with?
Nope, see my post above. The Court in Minor said the children were born citizens.
Oh Mario, let me quote YOU, to explain how wrongheaded your fictional definition is here:
“Do you know the difference between a sufficient and necessary condition?”
Ironic. Hypocritical. Idiot. Shyster.
Take your pick. All those terms are part of what defines you…
Again, presenting thin cover for your ducking.
The more pertinent questions are how far his newest goal post shift will be and how complex his bizarre non-sequiturs in his latest inane misdirection will be. Maybe you have to be drunk or high to understand his master plan.
Linda,
Here is Minor 101:
1. “At common-law” could not have meant the English common law because the Court included for children born in the country the citizenship of the parents into the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” The English common law did no such thing for children born within the King’s dominions.
2. It says of “parents who were its citizens.” This means both father and mother. It would have been absurd for the Court to say of two parents. At that time, husbands and wives had only one citizenship which was that of the husband. It was unheard of that the two could have different citizenships or that children could have a difference allegiance and citizenship from the parents. The family was one. So even Vattel first said “parents,” and then spoke about the “fathers.” Justice Daniels removed any ambiguity to “fathers” in his concurring opinion in Dred Scott when he replaced it with “parents.” So, “parents” meant both father and mother.
3. Stop your nonsense about the capital “C.” It is becoming nauseating. “Natural born Citizen” is a unitary clause. Hence “born Citizen” is not “natural born Citizen.” I already explained this many times.
4. The Minor Court said “The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. . . Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.” Do you see the difference, Linda, “natural born Citizen” and “citizen.” The Court confirmed the definition of a “natural-born Citizen.” And it left open the question of what was a “citizen.” Clearly, from the definition of the clause, you cannot have “natural-born citizens” unless you first have “citizens.” If you do not see the difference between the two phrases, I cannot help you.
5. Minor is very relevant to Mr. Obama’s situation because it construed Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 and confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of a “natural-born citizen” as that understood by the Founders and Framers and still applicable as of 1874, notwithstanding the Fourteenth Amendment. Wong Kim Ark also cited Minor as a case on citizenship and did not disturb its definition of a “natural-born citizen.” No other case has ever altered Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Hence, that definition, which is the law of the land as established by the People when they adopted and ratified the Constitution, it still in force today.
Mario, just when I thought your illogical arguments couldn’t get any stupider…
What OTHER freaking country do you think the Constitution would be referring to in terms of defining its own citizens?? I mean, really! Get serious for a moment.
I’ve never heard of a form of brain damage that prevented people from being able to grasp the concepts of synonyms before… you truly are a “special” case…
Indeed I do, and out of my charitable nature I can try to explain it to you in terms that even you might understand:
“All wines are alcoholic drinks.”
That’s a sufficient condition: if something is wine, that makes it an alcoholic drink. It’s not a necessary condition; it doesn’t say that something MUST be wine to be an alcoholic drink. Obviously e.g. beer and scotch are alcoholic drinks too.
“all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also”
That too is a sufficient condition: it doesn’t say that children MUST be like that to become citizens upon their birth: also all children born in USA of parents who are not citizens still become citizens at birth. You may not like it, you may hold your breath and pretend it’s not so, but it still is so.
P.S. so called non-alcoholic “wine” is not wine, it’s spoiled juice.
Hoboken is New Jersey’s answer to the black hole of Calcutta.
Christie leaves an impression wherever he goes, especially chairs. [bada-bing]
Pretty much.
Then why did they say “natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States”?
It sure did! And it did it directly with President Obama’s situation.
“Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it provides6 that ‘no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,’7 and that Congress shall have power ‘to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.’ Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”
So, being born a citizen, as President Obama was by his birth in Hawaii, makes you eligible, being a naturalized citizen doesn’t. Thanks for playing Mario and come again when you have something more worthwhile than your biased opinion.
And your explanation has been WRONG every time. And you’ve LOST this argument in court EVERY single time you’ve tried to make it.
Yet ALL the attorneys who have mentioned the Ankeny decision in this year’s court ballot challenges have had those coursts CONFIRM and AGREE with that finding, which is CONTRARY to your crazy position. The Congressional Research Report also made that same conclusion. So this VERY issue of Ark and Minor and what NBC means in terms of Obama’s birth scenario HAS been brought forth and ruled on in front of real lawyers, real judges and real panels with authority, a number of times already.
Sorry Mario. They’ve WON their arguments EVERY time that they’ve been put forward in response to the twisted interpretations that you and your ilk keep trying to introduce. They are batting 100% on this. You however AND every Birther who has tried is batting ZERO.
The fact that the concept of a “natural born [member/citizen/subject]” requirement came from English legal precedent. Even used the exact phrasing, and the same reasoning. Why would they have had to “concept” shop to find what they already knew of?
And again, what is your reasoning for thinking we are chained to the opinion’s of the Founder’s? Why would you possibly believe even they all interpreted the Constitution they compromised to create the same way?
The United States exists because a bunch of Europeans stole land from its rightful owners and brought some enslaved African over to work it. Then there was a falling out between the thieves who actually occupied the stolen land and the head crooks back in Europe. The rightful owners were the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Its borders are lines drawn by different gangs of thieves in the same way that gangs divide turf, all with no regard to the rightful owners. That’s your “rule of law”.
All of the above is 100%` historically accurate. If you want a REAL natural born citizen only native peoples really have a valid claim to that status. You should be packed off back to Italy, because New Jersey is not naturally yours. It belongs to the Lenape and a few other tribes.
As for someone born in the country of parents who were citizens of that country, that would include Schwarzenegger, Granholm, and my local Chinese restaurateur. I would gladly see any of them as President rather than any birther scum.
Linda,
Minor confirmed that a child born in a country to parents who were “citizens” of that country is not only a “citizen,” but also a “natural-born citizen.” Hence, Virginia Minor, being born with those birth circumstances, was not only a “citizen,” she was also a “natural-born citizen.” Justice Gray did not say the same about Wong, for he was born in the country to alien parents and the Court held him under the Fourteenth Amendment to be a “citizen” only.
Bazinga!
Hmm, that fits State and US Senator and President Barack Obama to a tee.
Let’s go on, shall we:
Well now let’s see, Barack Obama lived in Illinois about 15 years before he moved to the White House, he paid state and county tax so he’s a valid citizen of Illinois and thus of the US. As an added bonus, he is the son of a citizen, though under Wilson’s criteria that is not required since he meets the other ones..
I guess James Wilson was an O-Bot. Not that it matters as Wilson does not set policy or law in 2012. In fact, he won’t even have a vote this year due to his unfortunate demise. He is an ex-judge!!
Wow Mario, your very own Minor citation itself provides use of the “citizen” term language that is INCONSISTENT with your argument. Just a sentence before, in fact. So, let’s review that full citation, with the proper bolding for emphasis, one more time:
The Minor Court said “The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens , as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens”
Gee, sure looks like they FIRST use these two terms fairly interchangeably and explicity put those two separate sentences together in order to make that usage point. “upon their birth, citizens also. In the very next sentence, they say those “upon their birth, citizens” ARE “natives or natural-born citizens”.
Therefore, your conclusion that, “Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.” somehow *excludes* this verbal usage of the term “citizens” to imply “natives or natural-born citizens”, simply does NOT even consistently mesh with the very contextual usage of those terms in the sentences that preceed that statement.
So yet again, basic LOGIC FAIL on your part. Man you really suck at being able to comprehend the full context of written statements. I think you need a refresher course in elementary level english grammar school…
But, Minor did NOT call them natural-born Citizen…so by your standard
they are not eligible. Otherwise, the following from WKA is true
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, ‘a natural-born citizen.’ It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
Not parentage, but place of birth. Sorry Mario, wrong again.
NO, it simply isn’t. You are consistently and completely WRONG on this point and merely chasing your own tail…
Minor EXPLICITLY stated that they were SILENT on citizenship determinations for birth scenarios that differed from the one in Minor.
Therefore Minor was very clear in stating that they were NOT proclaiming an EXCLUSIVE and ALL ENCOMPASSING definition for what criteria MET the NBC condition.
As Obama’s birth circumstance is outside the scope of the Minor case, it remains completely IRRELEVANT.
But hey, keep losing. It is all you’ve been able to demonstrate that you are good at…
Schwarzenegger was born in a country to parents who were citizens of that country. So was Granholm. For that matter so was Kim Jong-Un.
Your arguments are frankly the most laughable thing I have read in a while. Don’t waste them on courts-go into the city and find a comedy club with an open mike night. You might have the crowd rolling in the aisles.
Joe Acerbic,
Minor said:
“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.” Minor v. Happesett, at 167-68.
You missed the little word “also” which follows “citizen” in the first sentence. Minor said that the parents were “citizens” and their children become “citizens also.” So at that point they are both “citizens.” But then the Court went further and distinguished the children from the parents and said the children were “natural-born citizens,” not only “citizens” like their parents. The Court was not interested given the definition of a “natural-born citizen” whether the parents were also “natural-born citizens.” So the court would have said they were “citizens” which was necessary to create a “natural-born citizen” child. The other necessary condition was “born in a country.” So Minor instructs that: (1) birth in a country (2) to “citizen” parents, are both necessary and sufficient conditions to make a “natural-born citizen.”
So there you have the clear dichotomy between a “natural-born citizen” and a “citizen” which also proves that Minor left open the question of what is a “citizen,” not what is a “natural-born citizen.” Wong Kim Ark then told us what a “citizen” “at birth” was under the Fourteenth Amendment. But the Court did not say this was a “natural-born citizen” and it could not have given that the Fourteenth Amendment only speaks of “citizens,” not “natural-born citizens.”
Better not…birthers don’t have much of a sense of humor. 😀
In fact, they don’t have much sense! 🙂
Mario says: “Wong Kim Ark then told us what a “citizen” “at birth” was under the Fourteenth Amendment. But the Court did not say this was a “natural-born citizen” and it could not have given that the Fourteenth Amendment only speaks of “citizens,” not “natural-born citizens.””
Wrong Mario
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, ‘a natural-born citizen.’ It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
It tells us exactly what a natural-born citizen is.
G,
Why do you care about what we do here in America?
We have already been through this. Minor is an invalid, overturned decision that denied women the vote. In order to make Minor valid law you would need to repeal the 19th Amendment. Nothing said in Minor is law in 2012. I will repeat so that even you get it:
NOTHING SAID IN MINOR IS LAW IN 2012.
Jim,
Do you really think that I care what you think?
Mario try answering a simple question-Was Arnold Schwarzenegger born in a country of parents who were citizens of that country?
A yes or no answer counsellor, like in court. The jury will disregard anything besides yes or no.
Scientist,
I hope people’s lives do not depend upon the results of the science projects that you work on.
Minor, advanced course.
1. It could only mean English common law. Many Founders were lawyers and practiced in the Colonies, which were of course under English law. Smith v Alabama, “There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes. . . . There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.”
2. Surely, you are not trying to say there were no illegitimate children? There were Founders who had some. Hamilton himself was one. And what of those parents with dual citizenship?
3. I agree, your whole “C” argument is nauseating, but you really should read Minor anew, more closely. The Court said that the children of citizens where themselves at birth, citizens.
4. Again, read your favorite quote more carefully. It says the children of citizens are at birth citizens, just as it said when it said some include as citizens the children of aliens.
5. It is surprising how much you got wrong in that one paragraph. First, Minor did not define NBC. The Courts have told birthers that, you do not have to take my word for it. Second, the decision in Minor does not mention Vattel. Seems that would have been the logical thing to do if they were using it, as you say. Third, WKA cited Minor, but it didn’t refer to it as a citizenship case and said “The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.” It did not say the Court in Minor defined NBC. That “definition” was never law of the land. Even if were did (and it isn’t) it did not address the children of aliens or, according to you, of married parents with different citizenships,
WRONG Mario. As has been repeatedly explained to you, “natural born citizens” are merely a TYPE of “citizen”.
Minor merely instructs that that particular scenario is a SUFFICIENT condition.
It also then explicitly goes on to explain that the ruling has no interest in addressing the boundaries of what would be NECESSARY, as other scenarios are beyond the scope of what was in front of the court.
So, by your own endless misconstructions of this very simple to grasp concept, you have consistently demonstrated that YOU are incapable of understanding the difference between necesary and sufficient.
Hence, why you are always a loser on these issues and will remain so.
You have doubtless gotten drunks back on the road who could have killed someone.
Now answer the question or I will cite you for contempt: Was Arnold Schwarzenegger born in a country of parents who were citizens of that country?
Scientist,
Wilson first defined a naturalized citizen. Then he defined a “natural born Citizen,” the latter being the “son of a citizen” who reached the age of majority and who did not throw off the allegiance and citizenship that he or she inherited from his parents at the time of birth. As I have explained numerous times, during the Founding, “son of a citizen” meant son of a father and mother who were citizens.
Of course you don’t, and you don’t care what the SCOTUS thinks, and you don’t care what Judges think, and above all you can’t think at such a high level. That’s why you’re a DUI lawyer and not a Constitutional lawyer…you can’t think at all past your own little world.
Because this is MY country, you twit. I was born here and have always lived here. Same with my parents and their parents before them…
As with everything you say, your statements are wrong and you only serve to make yourself look like a fool.
Unfortunately for Mario, it is a question of will, not ability … and he won’t.
Linda,
You are really failing.
Failing to make you understand, yes. Otherwise, I’m good. Thanks.
… this is not the United States of Wilson. Or Tucker. Or Locke. Or the Consolidated Cantons of Vattel. And sure as heck ain’t the United Emirates of Apuzzo.
It is the United States of America! Please refer to the current legal realities thereof.
Sorry Mario, there are simply only TWO types of Citizens in the US – Born and Naturalized.
There are NO other types. The 14th Amendment did NOT create any new “class” of citizenry at all.
Talk of some ficticious class of “only 14th Amendment Citizens”, as if they weren’t already either citizens by virtue of birth (natural born) or the naturalization process, is the crank nonsense language of “Sovereign Citizen” nutbags and “white nationalist” bigots…
…I guess that is your crowd and real audience, isn’t it?
I doubt that he’s got anyone off the hook explaining to the judge that his client drank beer and since wine is alcohol, beer can’t be alcohol.
No sir. You quoted him at length and he only said citizen. You are a liar.
Sorry, but your explanation is simply your opinion. Who cares? You have no authority to speak for the Founders. Besides today, which is the only time frame of interest, son of a citizen. means a male child of one or more citizens.
We live in 2012 and I am not interested in the slightest in what the law was in 1790. Only the 2012 law. Don’t give me outdated law, stale with mold growing on it. I want fresh, sir, fresh.
Scientist,
I do not understand why you are having such difficulties. Yes, Arnold Schwarzenegger was born in a country of parents who were citizens of that country. That country is Austria. He is a “natural born Citizen” of Austria. He had to naturalize after birth to become a “citizen of the United States” for which he is not eligible to be President.
It was tedius 700 comments ago.
That’s fine Mario. No one here believes in you or your nonsense opinions either…
It was tedious 700 comments ago.
OK. I told you everything after yes or no would be disregarded.
So Schwarzenegger is a natural born citizen and is eligible. By your own words, sir, by your own words.
Scientist,
What a sorry state of affairs you are in. I just do not understand you. You are a scientist and you have the world starting in just the 1400’s.
Agreed. Somehow little Mario is the ONLY one here who can’t grasp these simple concepts.
Considering that every recent court and actualy authority faced with this issue has also sided with the same conclusions we’ve reached….
Well, I guess that just means he’s “special”… bless his little heart… 😉
G,
I really am not interested in your conclusory statements about what others think.
Doubt that he’s gotten anyone off the hook with such an argument, I agree.
However, based on his prolific demonstrate of just such faulty logic, I would not at all be surprised to find that he actually to pull cr@p like that…
G,
You are also getting corny.
Meant to same demonstration, not “demonstrate”… my bad.
*waaaah*. I don’t care.
Hey, as soon as you entered the conversation, you introduced ludicrousness into it… so be it.
Don’t let him trick you, Linda. He understands perfectly well. He just seems to need the abuse to function.
When did I say that? In science there are papers published that are later shown to have been erroneous. There are theories that were wiidely believed in their time, but are then discredited. No competent scientist may cite them as authority, though historians of science can examine them as curiosities.
Doctors can’t treat patients today according to Galen. “Lawyers” can’t quote outdated law, overturned court decisions, misquoted tracts from writers that no one reads today and other legal detritus and pretend that describes the law in 2012.
G,
I guess then that puts you in the zombie group.
…ummm…where exactly did you get the 1400’s from out of any of these conversations?
Distracted by the voices in your head again, I suspect…
Get a mouse with a scroll wheel. It does wonders.
oooh. Boy, you’re “comebacks” are getting weaker by the minute. You really have nothing.
And here I sit, without the appropriate accoutrements…
Yeah but I am getting calluses on the tip of my finger on my iPad.
Just to poke one more pin into the uninflatable ballon of original intent …. Mario (and any other OTers who may be listening), the Framers of 1789 set out to revise an existing system of government. Their creation did not burst into being from nothingess. I reserve the right to ridicule mercilessly the next OTer who knows jack-doodly about the Founders and the Revolutionary period … which in my experience is most OTers.
Systems are processes, not an instances. The Framers’ process has, beyond their wildest expectations, been running for 223 years. Please couch all legal references accordingly.
Soon, your iPad will have calluses!
My otherwise dreamy trackball lacks scrolling …. has a perfect spot for one, just no one bothered to.
It doesn’t help; Mario’s comments still show up.
JPotter,
What did the Founders and Framers do? Did they change the government, did they have a civil war, or did they have a revolution?
They wrote the Constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation.
When you get yourself into costume, be sure to publish the photos or it didn’t happen.
Wow…..Mario’s response’s are just……well not exactly legal like?
All of this posturing and exclaiming but for me it comes down to this.
I remember what I was taught in my jr. high civics class by my very conservative teacher- anyone born in the U.S. is a natural born citizen.
He didn’t go into fancy stuff about children of diplomats, but I know for certain that he never said anything about ‘citizen parents’- this is all made up out just for Obama.
This is why Mario’s posturing is so ridiculous to Americans- any of us who actually listened to our teachers growing up know who a Natural Born ctizen is and who one isn’t.
Obama is.
Schwartzenegger and Kissinger aren’t.
That is why no one even mentioned this when Obama ran for election- any politician who said it would look like a fricking idiot to his consituents.
So argue legalese all you want. I look at how Roberts ruled- Roberts is not going to go for some arcane argument that everyone has just been confused for the last 100 years about who is a natural born citizen- the voters and Congress all were just too dumb to know any better.
Not only will Roberts be defering to precedence, his actions (to me) show he is of the mind to leave to the voters and Congress what should be left to them unless there is a clear and convincing reason to overturn them.
And telling millions of Americans that they are now suddenly not eligible to be President is not going to be one of them.
But not in PDF format or they will be declared devious forgeries.
The point Scientist is making (among others) is that you are misrepresenting the constitution by your selective editing of what it says, and thus in similar fashion your own words can be edited. If the constitution says “citizens of the United States,” and not “citizens of the United States, at the time of adoption…,” and if you think you can make that up as a “term of art,” then similarly, equivalently you are saying, according to Scientist, that any natural born Citizen of any country anywhere is eligible to be President of the United States. Neither proposition is true, but they are equivalent in their mendaciousness, and that is the point Scientist is exposing in his satiric, biting comments.
You are not the only one who can edit things to say something opposite to what they actually say.
In case you were wondering…
I am still waiting on Mario to post those legal articles from 1875 – circa 1910 that agree with his interpretation Minor v Happersett and Wong Kim Ark and the definition of Natural Born Citizen. He can’t seem to find even one. I posted an article about the work by William D. Guthrie, a very prestigious attorney from New York, written just weeks after the WKA decision over at my blog.
This morning I found another law article written in 1896 after the lower court decision that on the same page said the court declared WKA to be a natural born citizen and that Minor left the question open on children of aliens. Yes, on one page the article destroys Mario’s foolishness about both cases. I will post the link to the article later. I want to let Mario keep looking for a while.
Well, we see that Mario can keep cutting and pasting the same nonsense. Much of it has been debunked repeatedly. When confrnted with actual quoations that he is wrong, he usually makes no response but, of course, keeps repeating the same thing. So is waht birthers do.
He has been shown what James Wilson actually said. Wilson never defined “natural born,” nor did he say one needed citizen parents. Wilson said citizens were persons who could vote and listed who were citizens state by state by reciting their sufferage statutes. The only state were parentage was relevant was Pennsulvania where Wilson cited this provision:
“In elections by the citizens, every freeman of the age of twenty-one years, having resided in the state two years next before the election, and within that time paid a state or county tax, which shall have been assessed at least six months before the election, shall enjoy the rights of an elector: Provided, that the sons of persons qualified as aforesaid, between the ages of twenty-one and twenty-two years, shall be entitled to vote, although they shall not have paid taxes.”
So, having a citizen father meant you didn’t have to satisfy the tax requirement for 1 year. There is no dispute here as Wilson’s words are clear. Anyone think Mario will stop representing this?
Mario somehow thinks Binney helps him by saying “the citizens o the United States are, with the exceptions before mentioned,such only as are either born or made so, born within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States or naturalized by the authority of law, either in one of the States before the Constitution or, since that time, by virtue of an act of the Congress of the United States.” Of course, I have pointed out that Binney said persons born within the limits and jurisdiction of the United States were natural born citizens as such is clearly a way to state the English rule. Mario continue to cite Binney’s paper, a paper whose whole point was that we adopted the English common law prior to 1866, as evidence we didn’t adopt the English common law. Pretty much says it all.
Mario apparently will keep repeating his “citizen of the United States” nonsense even though he can’t find a single person inhistory to support it and it has been clearly shown that our statute make clear such cannot be correct. He thinks repeating claims he cannot back up over and over is legal argument.
To keep citing quotations unrelated to who is natural born as evidence that the author adopted such definition is realloy quote sad at this point. While the Marshall claim is bad, to claim Gray adopted the Minor definition when he cited Minor to show the court was not committed to a view of childern of aliens is pathetic. He can’t support these claims, but of course will never admit he is wrong.
And to say Gray didn’t have to declare WKA a natural born citizesn again show no understanding of case law. Gray said the 14th Amendment was declaratory of pre-exisitng law and hence had to define pre-existing law under the original Consittution. Accordingly, the court’s defining of natural born citizen is not dicta, but part of what is precedent. Apparently, this is over Mario’s head. I have asked him whether or not Gray said natural born subject and natural born citizesn meant the same thing. He did not answer before he knows we can provide the quotes.
In Mario’s ind, because he thinks he can cite a long sting of citations, he is making a legal argument. However, the fact remains that most of his citations actually fail to support him at all and he is not fooling anyone.
Giving his repetition of the same points regardless of input, here, he’s obviously dedicated himself to nonstop, exhaustive research as a means of generating add’l support for his “ideas”. You can be assured he i feverishly searching even as I type. I can just imagine the sweat and heavy breathing. ( 😉 )
Whether willfully stupid or just plain stupid, the output is the same. He’s following the birtherbot script to a ‘T; :
001 Check for new input
002 If new input is received, compare to current memory
002.1 If new input contradicts current memory, express denial and current memory
002.1.1 Clear input
002.1.2 Return to 001
002.2 If new input confirms current memory, express confirmation and input
002.2.1 Transfer current memory to old memory
002.2.2 Transfer input to current memory
002.2.3 Clear input
002.2.4 Clear old memory
002.2.5 Return to 001
002.3 If input neither confirms nor contradicts current memory, express current memory
002.3.1 Return to 001
003 If no input received, express current memory
003.1 Return to 001
That’s a mightily transparent shovel, Mario! You clearly know your way around a shovel, but if you need help handling it today, let me know. I gave you too much credit again. By all means please answer your own question. I’ll feign selective amnesia for all events prior to the Civil War. Please inform me. Let me serve up a fat one to get you started:
“Hasn’t the United States always been here? I thought it was eternal, having been ordained by the Almighty when He laid the Cornerstones of Existence. Is there more to the story than that?”
Mario,
I note with interest you have failed, as with any and all of your babbling insanity, to provide detail of your assertions.
I have, in point of fact, had a chat with two professional colleagues at B&N, one in Information Security, one in Risk Management and they are most intrigued in your tale as there appears to be no record of this troublesome incident. An unfortunate oversight on their part one is sure.
They woud take it as a boon if you would be able to name the branch and provide a date so that they will be able to take appropriate action.
Not wishing to be involved in Birther events or the standard MO of Birthers of splattering personal details over the Internet, they do not wish their emails be disclosed but will watch with bated breath for your response.
Scientist and Paper,
What you both fail to understand is that “natural born Citizen” and “Citizen of the United States” are words of art.
The people of the Founding generation knew what they meant.
Your suggestion that the way I interpret “natural born Citizen” means the citizen of any nation in the world is utter nonsense, for is that the understanding that the Founding generation had?
Wario, I think the one here with a lack of understanding of those terms is you! And the courts have backed this up, time and time again.
Nor I about yours.
Misha Marinsky,
Esq. M.O.U.S.E.FNAONo. “Citizen of the United States” is not a word of art. That is as utterly nonsensical as it is nonsensical that “natural born Citizen” means the citizen of any nation in the world. And that is the point.
You are wrong. That is the bottom line. But please prove us wrong in the only place that matters, court.
Mario: Link, please.
I’m waiting.
Note: the B&N near me is always a pleasant experience.
Mario Apuzzo’s legal theories have been so discredited that they rank with the nonsense theories that you can legally avoid paying income taxes because the Sixteenth Amendment was never ratified or because the IRS forms do not comply with the Paperwork Reduction Act.
If you have never seen it before you should check out ballantine’s List of Books on Google That Define Natural Born Citizen on his blog. Needless to say you will not find any that agree with Apuzzo. I have not counted exactly but I think there are over 300 sources on this list. How many has Apuzzo found? Other than sore loser David Ramsey I am not sure he has found any that legitimately support him.
Reality Check,
William Dameron Guthrie could have been a brilliant attorney, but he should not have so hastily commented on the meaning of Wong Kim Ark.
First, Mr. Guthrie demonstrates that he did not understand the constitutional difference between a “natural born Citizen” and a “citizen.”
Second, he also demonstrates that he did not understand that Wong Kim Ark did not change the original meaning of a “natural born Citizen.”
Third, he also errs in adding to Wong’s holding anything about only males being eligible to be President.
FIFY Mario
Ballantine,
You are the one who just provides quotations without any legal analysis linking those quotations to the Founders’ and Framers” original definition of a “natural born Citizen.”
Ballantine,
The people of the United States knew and long accepted what a “natural born Citizen” was. You have not met your burden to show that Wong Kim Ark changed that definition, even if it could have without constitutional amendment.
By “The people of the United States”, I think he means “A bunch of nut jobs who should never been allowed to practice law”.
Mothers who only ate organic during pregnancy.
Mr. Apuzzo: The American people know what a natural born citizen is. They elected one. Knowing he had a Kenyan Father. Knowing he was Black. Knowing his middle name was Hussein.
That’s what the American people know.
LOL. My burden? You seem to think that just repeating the same BS over and over is an argument. We have shown that none of the authority you cite actually supports you. There is simply no one in the founding period or early republic that agreed with you despite your twisting of plain English. Of wait, ther was the sore loser that was rejected by Madison and Congress. LOL. Sorry, Wong Kim Ark is the law as its language is unambliguous.
Is this supposed to make sense? Supreme Court statement that are talking about whois natural born stand on their own. There is no requirement that it provide legal analysis to satisfy you. And, not only do your citation not say one needs citizen parents, no case you cite provides legal analysis linking it to the founders. This is just your latest excuse to ignore clear quotations saying you are wrong. And, we are waiting for you to show a single statement from a framer that supports you. There are none.
Sorry Mario, the definition was not changed by WKA.
“The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, ‘a natural-born citizen.’ It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.”
Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor: “All of our Presidents have, to date, been born in the 50 states. Notably, President Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, and so is clearly a natural born citizen.”
Mario Apuzzo, DUI Attorney NJ: “I’m right because I say so and if you don’t believe me I’m going to hold my breath until I turn blue!”
bovril,
I am delighted to see that you have genuine concern regarding the Barnes and Noble incident. Just have store security contact me and I will be happy to provide them with all the details.
This thread will never be safe for irony meters …. or children.
Since it didn’t change the definition, but rather made more explicit what was previously established, showing evidence of a change is asking for a bit much … and is instead asking for us to do your work, as you’re insisting there was some “change” or “err” somewhere along the way. We’ve been waiting a long time, Mario, so how about you fetch us something more easily found, something more likely to exist, as entertainment to pass the time. Yes, can you get a sasquatch while we wait?
Oh, and I’ll be stepping out to enjoy the ongoing drought for a bit. I trust the Apuzzification of the 18th century will be ready sometime today? Please no copy/pastes from David Barton, Tim Ballard, James Robison, etc.
Reality Check,
In your book, anybody who does not fit into your political agenda is a “sore loser.” That, my friend, makes you a “sore loser.’
Jim,
The are two problems with your statements regarding what I have done or not done. First, I have not done anything hastily like Mr. Guthrie. Second, you cannot prove the rest of what you said.
I am closing comments due the large number, and time to transmit the page with that much text. The comments may be continued here:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/scotus-cites-vattel-a-shot-over-obamas-bow-continued/