In an article yesterday, Dr. Orly Taitz, DDS, posted the following:
There are few things that are peculiar to HI
1. statute 338 allows foreign born children of Hi residents to get HI birth certificates.
2. BCs can be obtained based on a statement of one relative only
3. You can get a late BC- meaning when you are 20 yo or a 100 yo.
4. Chiyome Fukino stated that there is a BC on file, but she did not state, how and when it was obtained
a. it could have been one obtained when Obama was 21 yo.
b. it could have been obtained based on a statement of one relative only, who lied
c. the most important thing- she never said that the piece of garbage with an obliterated number, that Obama posted on the Internet is the same document that she has on file, she never said that this piece of garbage that he posted on the net actually came from HI. As a matter of fact her assistant Janet Okubo said that she can’t read what was downloaded from the net.
In reply:
1.The specific law she’s trying to cite is §338-17.8 Certificates for children born out of State. This law was passed in 1982. It cannot apply to Barack Obama because his birth was registered in 1961. I get the impression that Orly doesn’t quite understand birth certificates; she talks about getting one, like one gets a drivers’ license. A birth certificate is a one time registration event (in the case of Obama, completed on August 8, 1961). What one “gets” is a certified copy of the birth certificate (either a computer generated one or a photocopy).
2. While §338-5 states that one of the parents is on the list of those who may fill out the birth registration forms, it does not say that this is all the documentation required to have a birth certified. We do not know the administrative procedure in place in 1961; however, in the case of an attended birth (hospital or midwife) it is the responsibility of the attending person or institution to complete the form. In Obama’s case, we know that the President was born at the Kapi’olani Medical Center (based on their January 24 celebration of their centenary in which they acknowledge Obama was born in their hospital). Hence the declaration of a parent is not applicable.
3. Since President Obama’s birth certificate was registered 4 days after his birth, it cannot be a “late” certificate as described in Hawaiian Law. See §338-16. In any case late certificates have to be marked with the word “LATE” which Obama’s isn’t.
4. That’s true, BUT, the only kind of certificate that could have been registered on August 8, 1961 was for a child born in Hawaii. (I don’t know what she means by “obtained” in this context.)
a. No it couldn’t because the birth was registered in 1961.
Obama could have obtained a certified copy of his registration at any time, and indeed he did get one (or several) in June of 2007. However, the registration, as stated on the certified copy, was completed 4 days after the President was born.
b. No, because Obama was born in a hospital
. Orly still has no reason to think that the COLB is anything other than what it says, so why all the crazy speculation?
c. Other photos of the COLB show that the number is intact. The signature on the back of the COLB by Dr. Onaka, head of Vital Statistics, certifies that the COLB is a true abstract (certified copy) of the information on file. It is beyond credibility that the director of the state health department and the head of vital statistics would have said what they said knowing that the published certificate was false, especially since the COLB bears the signature of one of the two people who examined the original.
I can certainly read the COLB without out any difficulty.
This is why Orly is better off that the merits of her cases are never heard. They don’t have any merits. I can imagine an opinion where the judge muses wondering how Orly ever got admitted to the bar.
Orly, in a subsequent article continues:
1. All of the information can be a certification of Hawaiian birth, obtained based on a statement of one relative, who might be lying.
2. The piece of garbage on the Internet has an obliterated number and is as valid as the one in Dossier #1 for Barack Hussein Obama Bin Ladin, that was photoshopped within 5 minutes, meaning that we don’t know if any single word there is true. The date might not be the date on the doc in HI, the name on the doc in Hi can be Barry Soetoro- an amended BC, obtained after Obama’s adoption by Lolo Soetoro.
3. Hi might have a completely different form of the Birth certificate on file. They might have one issued to a foreign born child of a HI resident, it can be a Late Certification of Hawaiian Birth- issued when Obama was in his 30s. The only thing they said, is that they have a document on file, but never said that anything in that document corresponds to the piece of garbage Obama posted on the Net.
I am sorry, but I am really disqusted [sic] by the arrogance and contempt this man has shown to the whole nation. He and his posse of criminals are saying that all challenges to his legitimacy are”garbage”. This is his lexicon, his vocabulary, however the only garbage I see, is the garbage coming from the White House. They treat each and every one of you like a piece of garbage and you have a clear choice. You can take it silently and I assure you, things will get worse, or you can rise for your country and join the Organised [sic] militia as you are allowed under the Constitution, and start making citizen arrests of everybody committing treason.
1. No. A Certification of Hawaiian Birth says “Certification of Hawaiian Birth” on it. Also certificates of Hawaiian birth can only be issued one year after the birth or later. Obama’s birth registration was completed 4 days after his birth. A lawyer should check this stuff for herself rather than copying the latest crazy of Phil Berg or somebody’s blog.
2. The Certificate number is 151 1961 – 010641. See: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg.
3. This was pretty much discussed already. The date the birth was registered was August 8, 1961, not when Obama was “in his 30s”.
So let’s see, Orly is calling for an armed paramilitary group to kidnap the President? That sounds like treason to me.
what?!? noooooooooo! richard! for the love of god, it’s convinced richard!
Check out her blog today. She’s posted Barack Obama’s SS#.
Oh fergawd’s sake, now she’s got a post that she’s actually looked at the factcheck picture of the BC and she’s seeing circles and x’s and characters in the Birth Certificate. What a load of horse puckey! I don’t think even Dr Polarnik saw x’s and T’s and circles! Orly Taitz, DDS, JD, Documents Expert. And you watch people will comment that they see it too. Maybe you have to play Dark Side of the Moon while you look at it.
Actually, the circled X’s and T’s are there, but you have to zoom way in to see them. I think they are patterns used by the viewer when magnifying the image to be larger that the resolution of the original.
Right you are Dr C. “Compression artifacts”, you can see them on the guy’s fingers too. (No, not playing DSOTM) OK, I take back what I said, but could this have been Orly’s first look at the pics on factcheck?
http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/digitalimaging/qt/overcompression.htm
1. statute 338 allows foreign born children of Hi residents to get HI birth certificates.
This could possibly apply to births before 1982:
From the Statute: ….living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
Why would it be necesssary to put the Territory language if Hawaii was a state in 1982? Perhaps to componsate for births before 1959.
“In Obama’s case, we know that the President was born at the Kapi’olani Medical Center (based on their January 24 celebration of their centenary in which they acknowledge Obama was born in their hospital).”
I believe the hospital has neither denied or confirmed Obama’s birth there due to privacy laws. Such a declaration would be a violation of privacy laws.
“Since President Obama’s birth certificate was registered 4 days after his birth, it cannot be a “late” certificate as described in Hawaiian Law. See §338-16. In any case late certificates have to be marked with the word “LATE” which Obama’s isn’t.”
We only know this from the posted COLB which is highly in question. We have no idea was the Vault Copy Birth Certificate was registered.
Obama still has yet to identify the name of the doctor who delivered him.
“The Certificate number is 151 1961 – 010641. See: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg”
Gibbs has affirmed the posted COLB is the actual birth certificate. That COLB has no Certificate Number.
Gibbs made no mention of Fact Check and what they allegelly saw has never been seen again.
I am more curious to Obama’s COLB that he used before 2007 to verify his birth. Remember the posted COLB is a 2007 version and did not exist before 2007.
What was Obama using to verify his birth before 2007.
Further, why was it necessary for Obama to get a 2007 COLB when his birth was in question.
Why not just post what he had been using before 2007.
It hard to believe that before 2007 Obama had never been asked to verify his birth by producing some sort of birth Certificate.
If he did, then what was he using before 2007.
1. His Vault Copy which absolutely and adamantly refuses to release.
2. Another COLB dated before 2007.
2 Key Questions that need to be answered.
I would either would like to see his Vault Copy (Long-Form_ Birth Certificate that Hawaii has OR
Obama’s COLB BEFORE 2007.
Of course he had to show proof of his birth some time before 2007. Obama probably got his first passport at the age of 6 when he and his mother moved to Indonesia. She showed her copy of his birth certificate to get the first one. Subsequent renewals were based on the original. From then on, the passport could serve as proof of birth and citizenship. Maybe Grandma Toot had a copy too and he showed that when he got his first driver’s license. Somewhere along the line, original copies may have been lost, torn, otherwise ruined and a new one was requested. Perhaps in 2007, rather than bother Toot, who was already ill, to search her papers for his birth certificate, he requested a new one. There are lots of simple, normal, innocent reasons for not having a copy in your possession. That’s why you can request copies!! Am I correct to understand that nopw you don’t want just the original you want all copies he used prior to 2007? Idiocy. The current copy is the official copy you moron.
As far as your lie that he “adamantly refuses to release the original.” You do realize in this country that once you are accused of something, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not you. It is my understanding that no one from birtherdom ever politely asked for more information. They filed lawsuits and began demanding Obama “show the birth certificate”. Once the lawsuits were filed, Obama had no obligation to provide them with anything. If you were being sued and people were urging you “come on, just prove you’re not guilty” you would be directing the burden of proof right back to your accusers. Your attorney would never allow you to give up your rights. Why do you want our legal system to be turned around on Obama?
I’ve got a question about #1
“1. statute 338 allows foreign born children of Hi residents to get HI birth certificates.”
Wouldn’t a certificate issued to a foreign child born of a Hi resident say their foreign place of birth? Obama’s certificate clearly says he was born in Hawaii so it was obviously not issued as a certificate of birth abroad. I would guess that if somebody was born abroad, Hawaii would issue the identical certificate but with the name of the foreign location of birth on it.
While I don’t know for sure, I would think that the certification would not say “Certification of Live Birth” but something else distinctive. As you point out, whatever the format, the certificate would indicate the actual place of birth, in this case Hawaii.
The Big Question?
What was Obama using to verify his Hawaiian birth BEFORE 2007?
– His Personal Vault Copy – If True, why didn’t his just release that or won’t release it. If he lost it, when did Obama lose it?
– Another COLB BEFORE 2007 – Why did Obama simply release that copy. Why was it necessary to contact Hawaii for a fresh new copy?
You are wrong. The Certificate Number isblacked out on the scan of the June 6, 2007 COLB. Don’t say it has no Certificate Number. You are trying to parse Gibbs’ words to extract something he neither said nor inferred. The document examined by Fact Check is the same document that was scanned and put online. Prove otherwise. “Never been seen again”. Really. Quite a bold statement. Care to explain how you could possibly know that. The biggest mistake you birthers make is to make the presumption of guilt in everything and anything you see, hear or read. Until one of you folks proves otherwise, Obama is exactly who he says he is. And save your suspicions, hunches, inferences and innuendo. It ain’t evidence. And no, you won’t be able to proceed in a court action based on the nonsense you call facts and convince a judge, honest, we’ll be able to find the proof if you let us discover it. Our courts don’t work that way.
Is Obama trying to say to American people that from 1982 (21 Years Old) to 2007 he was never asked to submit proof of his Hawaiian Birth. Frankly, I find this hard to believe.
I have lost my records in moves 4 times. I have always had to send for a new copy and the last one looked a lot like President Obama’s COLB. The earlier ones were copies of the original typed and handwritten certificate from 1945.
There are regulations that indicate that the person would get a “Certificate of Foreign Birth”:
See: Title 11, Administrative Regulations, Hawaii Dept. of Health
http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/11-120.pdf
(emphasis added)
I got a copy of my birth certificate in order to get a marriage certificate. They kept it. It was a computer printout on security paper. If I need another one, I will have to get it from the state again.
Any particular reason you’d like to see a COLB before 2007? It should look exactly the same.
Technically Obama would not have needed a birth certificate for any purpose except for possible school enrollment after his first passport was issued — the passport could have been used for all purposes. Once a person has a passport, then the old (expiring) passport is the only evidence needed for renewal. Since passports issued to minors are good for only 5 years, it is possible that Obama’s first passport expired before he applied for a second when he traveled overseas while in college. However, it is equally likely that his passport was renewed continuously, as his mother continued to live and work sporadically in Indonesia.
For what purpose would he possibly have needed to document his Hawaii birth in that time frame?
His passport.
What’s the name of the doctor who delivered you?
(Its a rather obscure piece of information and I doubt that most people could answer that accurately.)
“2 Key Questions that need to be answered.”
go to birtherland for these answers, they will make something up for people like you.
as for 2007, the DNC requested Obama’s BC to verify his eligibility, that was done.
as for vault certifictae, that is no longer available from Hawaii, since computerizing their records they no longer supply any but what Obama got in 2007. Confirm this, call Hawaii records, but if you are a birher you won’t call, afraid of the truth.
phone to call 808 974-6008, just ask if vault copy available. I called for my daughters BC, no vault copy availabe. so keep on asking for something that is not available. But we know you won’t call, it would destry your “show me the vault copy” talking point. So easy to verify, but birthers don’t want verifaction do they. Did you call yet?
(This account is paraphrased from an individual who was involved in Obama’s campaign as a member of the Chicago Headquarters staff.)
A birth certificate is a single user system. If Obama only had the need to sequentially show one person at a time his birth certificate, then whatever he had in his possession would suffice.
But you may recall that in 2007 Obama was preparing a run for the Presidency, and in preparation he assembled the documentation necessary to get on ballots in all 50 States. Under the assumption that several different States would require birth certificates, the campaign staff understood that he would need more than one. So he requested several certified copies at that time, only one of them being the copy kept at campaign Headquarters and later scanned and distrinuted in June of ’08.
I don’t even remember the names of the doctors that delivered my babies.
Obama is paying no attention to the antics of the Birthers. He has serious work to do.
Frankly, I find it hard to believe that this looniness continues. Every single court case has failed, mostly due to an attorney’s incompetence but also due to a lack of law and facts supporting their various theories. The citizens grand juries are a joke. Every claim to have found “the smoking gun” has been proven false. Lies have repeatedly been exposed.
You lost. Get over it.
No matter what you say the “birthers” are going to believe what they want to…There has been no real evidence that Obama was born anywhere else other than Hawaii but the “birthers” will continue with this fantasy and would rather believe in the most incredulous set of circumstance rather than believe what is in front of them. We alll know that even if Obama could release this “long form” they would claim that it is a forgery. I lost my old BC and had to get a new one in NY…It did not have a doctors name on it nor did it have the hospital…The only way I knew what hospital I was born in was because my mother had told me…These “birthers” hate Obama so much they are willing to believe almost anything. It is also funny how all of those “birther” sites request money..Whether it is Orly, Berg, Hale, they all want you to donate to help them “expose” this imposter…And as you keep on donating they will keep on taking your money. I find it interesting that there are no Obama sites solicting donations to “help defend the President”. These birthers are being conned and it is so amusing to sit back and watch it…
“or you can rise for your country and join the Organised [sic] militia as you are allowed under the Constitution, and start making citizen arrests of everybody committing treason.”
I wonder if Ms. Orly will be following her own advice and making citizen arrests soon? Or will she be like Osama Bin Ladin and just exhorting others to put themselves in harms way without risking herself? I actually hope she is delusional enough to start making arrests, but I suspect that she is quite aware of how quickly that would put an end to her self proclaimed leadership
Orly has a new approach. She is citing the law below and her “legal” interpertation is that if a child was born at home and there was no midwife present, then only the grandmother and mother could report the birth…As usual totally misreading the law. These birthers will try and fine any law that could possibly suit their delusions…
““§338-5 Compulsory registration of births. Within the time prescribed by the department of health, a certificate of every birth shall be substantially completed and filed with the local agent of the department in the district in which the birth occurred, by the administrator or designated representative of the birthing facility, or physician, or midwife, or other legally authorized person in attendance at the birth; or if not so attended, by one of the parents.
The birth facility shall make available to the department appropriate medical records for the purpose of monitoring compliance with the provisions of this chapter. [L 1949, c 327, §9; RL 1955, §57-8; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-5; am L 1988, c 149, §1] ”
More important that the specific laws and policies of Hawaii is the clear command of the Constitution:
“Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.” (Article IV, Section 1)
Congress prescribed the features of non-judicial state records in 28 USC 1739, and of course the states design their birth certificates to conform. There’s little point in arguing whether Hawaii’s policies ensure that their records are reliable. We accept state records because the Constitution tells us to.
Dr. Conspiracy, I notice you have the dash in the wrong place in the certificate number.
Yeah, I should get out more.
Whew. Hadn’t checked out Orly’s site in a while. What a mess – not merely intellectually – the site layout is gawdawful.
Many of the posters are barely literate. You come back feeling dirty and guilty, like you’re an 18th century aristocrat back from an amusement trip to the madhouse.
ROFL. I definitely should get out more. It’s fixed. Thanks.
Doc. –
It’s hard to believe that you are foolish enough to be bamboozled by the WH letter (or the video of it being read at the hospital’s fund-raiser). It may be a good fund-raising hype item but it says nothing at all probative about where he was actually born; it is merely his heresay at this point.
It will be interesting to see how that holds up in the trial. After all, his natural sister clamed he was born in a different hospital. In fact, though, it doesn’t matter if he were born on the steps of the SCOTUS … what matters is whether he qualifies under the laws of our land to legally hold the office he is presently in – and MILLIONS of Americans have serious doubts they’d like to see assuaged.
Why don’t you O-borter fans on this blog join with mainstream America in finding out the truth???
jtx, I was taught to beware of people who use demeaning terms for others. I’ve never understood the need for making up ridiculous names for people. I believe that serious people use their language in a serious and respectful way. I guess as a practicing Christian I have this silly notion about the dignity of each person God created be it you, me, President Bush or President Obama.
“…join with mainstream America”
mainstream America already knows the truth
each time you are proven to be an idiot you come back and offer more proof that you are an idiot. we are already convinced, no need for you to contimue down that path.
jbx would rather call our President names and make claims he cannot substantiate while the VP of the former administration has publically said that Saddam Hussien had nothing to do with 9/11. In other words, verifying that the former President lied to get us into a war.
1. NO, she NEVER said that. (Its just one more invented “fact” that the birther’s repeat to bolster their case).
2. Obama’s sister is YOUNGER than he is and was born in Indonesia. She could not possibly have personal knowledge as to where Obama was born. So she would not be a reliable source of that information in any case.
Making up ‘facts’ again?
Sigh
So far the truth is that all evidence points to a US born scenario and no evidence contradicts this.
JTX: “After all, his natural sister clamed [sic] he was born in a different hospital.”
This just goes to show that you don’t have your facts straight. That’s one of Phil Berg’s distortions that has persisted among the folks who don’t check their facts.
The charity event at the hospital isn’t evidence for a trial. The Certification of Live Birth is evidence for a trial. Now if the other side could just find some evidence to the contrary. Buzzzzzzzzzz. Time’s up.
I think the usability of a web site reflects the attitude of the people who run it and their regard for those who visit.
Mary, thanks for that comment. I find it a constant tension between speaking of my neighbor kindly and telling the truth when I believe something is evil. However, living in that zone of tension forces one not to jump to conclusions (judging) hastily and leads to more digging and fact checking before publishing.
Certainly if the citizenship deniers followed Jesus’ warning about judgment, there wouldn’t be all these lawsuits, and web sites like this one wouldn’t be needed.
NBC:
You’ve been told before that “US born” is not the issue; eligibility under our laws IS the issue and millions of Americans are not too sure that he is eligible – in no small part because he uses all sort of legalistic strategems to duck showing that (or any other pertinent fact).
Sorry, Doc:
The only birth document (assuming it is not am out and out fraud which is most likely is) is merely prima facie evidence of the facts it shows which, if brought under challenge in court, will have to be supported by some probative evidence … say a valid, certified long form hospital BC.
Thye trial will be very illuminating, won’t it? I look forward to it as do millions of others.
I’m not so sure of that. A letter signed by the President that asserts a place of birth is pretty clearly admissible testimony.
You have been misinformed. Maya Soetoro-Ng has never claimed he was born in any hospital other than Kapiolani Medical Center. This is one of those oft repeated birther fake “factoids” that is pure fiction.
Millions you say? Hey, why stop there? Why not billions? Gazillions? They would all be equally honest estimates.
At best assessment, the total number of actual Birthers is something south of 250,000 people.
Mainstream America seems pretty content that they know the truth, as evidenced by the election and Obama’s continued high approval ratings.
Completely wrong, jtx. The standard for legal proof in a civil trial is “preponderance of evidence.” The COLB in and of itself is vastly more evidence than Birthers have that Obama was born anywhere other than Honolulu. With that single document, and without any need for anything else, preponderance of evidence in this case is firmly established.
Mary –
Calling out putative president the O-borter is merely identifying him with a position he promotes strongly and that is something that many of us consider to be the taking of a human life … whether you like it or not. If you could show that he did not take that position then your snippy, holier than thou comment might be rational. As it is, it’s merely an attempt to denigrate someone who holds a different opinion than you do.
That’s a very typical liberal technique and one the O-borter and his minions frequently uses. It was #5 in Saul Alinsky’s book …
richCares:
I realize that the bunch of you are “true believers” and have taken the blue pill and drunk the KoolAid.
That will make the trial even more interesting, won’t it?? I look forward to reading your impassioned defenses as you try to pretend you have some legal knowledge of the matter far beyond that of the court.
thisoldhippie:
I’m glad he is “your” president, but he is not “our” president until he can firmly establish in a court of law that he is eligible under the Constitutiom.
Surely you don’t mind having him demonstrate that beyond any doubt (which has not to date been done, blather on this site notwithstanding) to set the minds of the majority of Americans – who are now beginning to rightfully wonder – at ease. And think of the bragging rights that would give you!!!
Why do you suppose that he sends attorneys to answer the legal actions so far filed (though none have been heard on merit yet) to block or delay any release not only the BC but any other of his records that might illuminate the matter … say the Occidental College records???
After all the real bc would cost, say, $20 and I’d think even Doc would gladly spring for that – don’t you??
“After all the real bc would cost, say, $20 ”
actually it cost 14.00 and Obama has supplied it, sorry to dissapoint you! Go back to Birher heaven where youi can lie and wish!
Seems that you are applying #5 quite liberally as well. Such is the problem of stereotyping, a concept which you seem to believe has any relevance.
Figures
Now that is ironic my dear confused friend.
Cool, seems that all preceding presidents were treated with the same disregard of the facts as you are treating the present one?
The college records are of no relevance. But you of course already knows this.
Desperate times I guess?
The predictable response is that he presented a COLB which of course is legally equivalent to the BC.
But do not confuse them with the facts. Too depressing… Those darn facts…
Nope it will have to then shown to be flawed. The prima facie aspect causes the opposing side to have to present as to why it should be rejected.
And of course, there appears to be no reason or evidence that suggests that the COLB was a fraud, on the contrary.
As long as the seal and signature are present, the evidence is indeed admisible in court which raises the bar significantly.
Good luck on the trial that will never take place.
jtx, Why is it snippy to ask that you treat all humans with dignity. Our values are only our values when we practice them in difficult circumstances. Didn’t Christ himself tell us that anyone can love those who love them. I do not think Jesus was snippy. But His commands are clear. We are to treat all with dignity. Remember the Good Samaritan. Read a little about the relationship of Samaritans and Jews during that era.
“That will make the trial even more interesting, won’t it?? ”
anyone have any idea what “trial” jtx keeps referring to? The poor deluded guy thinks there will be a trial!
It’s entirely in keeping with the mindset of the same geniuses who imagine that these citizens grand juries will actually go anywhere, or that a group of armed citizens will enter the White House to drag Obama away in chains.
Oh the fantasies of some. Well, it’s pretty harmless in most cases and it gives them a sense of accomplishments, they never could get from their regular activities.
The burden of proof in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence. This can be summed up in “Is it more likely than not.” JTX.
Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the plaintiffs, jtx. So, even with a trial, the birthers would have to actually prove their case, and Obama could move to dismiss based just solely upon the birthers not proving even to a preponderance of the evidence.
The birthers have absolutely no chance.
Exactly, but don’t try to educate jtx as to the nature of legal issues. He has all but rejected that the COLB is in fact legally admissible prima facie evidence
Well, reality may be to boring to ponder, so the brain invents certain beliefs which, even though running counter to fact, logic and reason, instill the person with a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose.
Who am I to deny anyone their sense of purpose, even if it lacks such
jtx wrote:
You misunderstand what “prima facie” means, in legal terms.
“Prima facie” means that it has to be accepted as proof of the fact unless rebutted by competent (admissible) evidence. It shifts the burden of proof to the other side to rebut the evidence, by “evidence which is clear, unequivocal, and convincing”. Lee Hon Lung v. Dulles 261 F 2nd 719.
So basically, a hypothetical quo warranto trial would go something like this: Obama’s lawyer shows up in court with the COLB. Judge asks the relators what evidence there is to rebut COLB. (internet rumors and speculation not allowed; admissible evidence required). From the “case” we have seen so far, there’s nothing – which would mean that the case would have to be decided on the basis of the COLB.
If the relators DID have some evidence, of any kind, to offer to rebut the COLB — then once they had presented their case, Obama’s lawyers would have an opportunity to respond to rebut whatever evidence had been offered against them — that’s just the way trials work. So tactically, there would be no reason whatsoever for Obama’s attorney to introduce anything beyond the COLB. Why produce more than you have to?
Yeah, I’m wondering where and when this trial is going to be. Does jtx have a time and place yet, or is it his imagination?
I’ll be bringing the chips and salsa.
But but but, we all know that if we get to look at the original birth certificate it would state similarly that President Obama was born on US soil in Honolulu to be exact. So why can we not be allowed a peak at this document…. Why oh why…
Believing that it may state something that causes Obama to become ineligible is rather far fetched, as the only option would be that Obama was born in a foreign country. However the BC shows Honolulu and was filed 4 days after his birth, which was ‘coincidentally’ also announced in the newspapers.
So much for admissible evidence to the contrary.
Well said. Of course, the fact that Orly’s familiarity with HTML seems to be on par with her familiarity with the Federal Rules and Procedures have turned both adventures into disasters.
They think they want to see the long form to check if everything “matches”. It is hard to believe they don’t understand that the seal, the signature and the date certify that the COLB matches what’s on the original. (zomg! Is that why there’s a seal?) Where do these people live and work because they sure don’t seem to have the most basic understanding of things I thought everybody knew, including, preponderance of evidence, burden of proof, and what are legally accepted means of ID.
That was funny.
The one thing Orly could do to really help out her site is to use the <!–more–> tag. When you do that, only the first part of the article appears on the main page, and you get a (more…) link to read the rest.
I try to remember this for Obama Conspiracy Theories, and usually limit front page article presentation to one screen’s worth (depending on your screen size).
And again you ignore the important aspects of a war that we should never have been in while you chase a consipiracy down the rabbit hole. Further, you can continue to wait for the trial of the century because until one of your “attorneys” can file a legally substantive lawsuit they will continue to be dismissed and your so called grand juries are a joke.
“The college records are of no relevance.”
he used the name nickname Barry at Occidental, the only Barry birthers know is Barry Soetoro, so they think records would prove this. Sure they would, his HS transcrips show no Soetoro but they say his HS info and pictures as Obama are fake. You have got to have a mental breakdown to hold birther views.
How can you discus anything with someone that deluded. jtx and these people are really sick. Maybe they will recover when that trial doesn’t take place.
This is the VERY twisted logic that got us into this mess!
GWB is retired and living on his ranch in Texas. Let it go and move on. I doubt that you or any liberal is capable of that.
Face it. Your messiah is a usurper and a criminal. He WILL be brought to justice!
All I see are promises of some type of trial and justice, but I see nothing substantive in any of yours or jtx’s, (or any birthers’) rants about not being natural born, etc and so on. The only “justice” you will see is the continued denial of these so called lawsuits and the continued decline of prosecutors to pay any attention to your grand juries.
How wrong can one be in a single paragraph?
MessiahL Nope
Usurper: Nope
Criminal: Nope
He will be brought to justice: For what…
You’re funny Heavy. But does it not worry you a little bit that your conclusion is based on false premises?
Actually, my conclusions are based on fact. Too bad for you that your are so blinded by you hatred of this country and GWB to see it.
Now that’s ironic Heavy… Have you ever considered the possibility that you are projecting?
After all, we have a COLB which shows President Obama born in the US.
What do you have to support your unconstitutional efforts to have a duly elected President removed from office? Nothing.
“Actually, my conclusions are based on fact. Too bad for you that your are so blinded by you hatred of this country and GWB to see it.”
Heavy, I haven’t ever seen you post anything regarding facts. You never post anything supporting your conclusions. Frankly, you have nothing to support your conclusion that those of us who support President Obama(our legally elected President)hate our country.
I will go one further- I will even concede that George Bush and Dick Cheney love our country and honestly thought they were doing what was best, however misguided. You are unwilling to concede that about anyone who supports Obama though. As far as you are concerned the millions of people who voted for Barrack Obama are all guilty of treason…which shows how deluded you really are.
All of your “facts” have been debunked, yet you continue to cling to them due to your hatred of President Obama who was elected by a majority of Americans.
“I’m glad he is “your” president, but he is not “our” president until he can firmly establish in a court of law that he is eligible under the Constitutiom.”
Just suppose- just suppose everyone decides this is the case for every future President. As soon as one Joe Blow decides the President wasn’t eligible- and someone would- right or left- therefore until a trial that President is not actually ‘our’ president? Talk about a perscription for Anarchy!
“GWB is retired and living on his ranch in Texas.”
GWB is not living on his ranch, he’s living in Dallas.
The Occidental yearbook says “Obama”.The Occidental College web site says:
“Barack Obama attended Occidental College from fall 1979 through spring 1981″ (not “Barry Soetoro”).
Calling out putative president the O-borter is merely identifying him with a position he promotes strongly and that is something that many of us consider to be the taking of a human life
How, then, do you feel about your compatriots taking another human life in the guise of protecting human life? Your position is untenable and your ilk are hypocrites at best, false prophets at worst.
Let it go and move on. I doubt that you or any liberal is capable of that.
Why don’t you ask Dick Cheney to do the same?
If “U.S. born is not the issue” then there is no point in disputing the birth certificate.
“majority of Americans – who are now beginning to rightfully wonder ”
The majority of Americans don’t even know about your delusions. The majority of Americans have never heard of this. The majority of Americans clearly support President Obama. But then again- when have you ever cared what the majority of Americans care about?
I’m hoping jtx and Heavy will help me walk my unicorn. I don’t want him peeing on the rug.
I need those two for picking up after Mr. Ed (my unicorn’s name), in the park. Philly has a clean up law.
Oh, wait. They’re too busy until after the “trial.”
The “trial” reminds me of the one Kafka wrote about…
But, but, they’re in on the conspiracy too. Can’t you see?
After this was posted, their webmaster was taken away on a black helicopter, to Mars. The Tooth Fairy told me all about it. She left a message under my pillow.
Orly is orchestrating the whole thing, from her dental/law/home office in LA – when she’s not stalking judges.
Sheesh, people. Wake up! Arrest anyone near you! A citizen’s arrest can be made by any citizen, even if you’re naturalized or artificial. But remember, to be da prez, BOTH parents have to be US citizens. It’s in my copy of the Constitution, which is the only valid one in existence. It was in my Cracker Jack box.
Since the COLB shows US born, the problem you have is to make a case for your side. If US born is not an issue, then you have nothing because the courts have consistently ruled that people born on US soil, with minor exceptions, are natural born.
Eligible because of being natural born citizen because of being born on US soil.
Simple really
Again, in scripture what did the Christ tell us about our treatment of others?
The funny thing is, of course, is that these idiots won’t be satsfied with a birth certificate in any form, as has already been demonstrated.
They basically want access to every bit of paper ever produced with Barry’s name on it since 1961, including crayon drawings from kindergarten.
Talk about serendipity:
http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/red-herring-alert-it-is-not-the-birth-certificate/#comment-90602
Jtx – I was just wondering how you reconcile your view of Obama as an “abortion-happy murderer” with the reality that Obama is not “abortion-happy” but rather simply acknowledges that it is Constitutionally allowed, and therefore is working on REDUCING them by encouraging more family planning, pregnancy prevention, sex education, etc., rather than ignoring methods that have been proven to reduce abortion rates, banning it outright and forcing women to get back-alley abortions?
I went there. One visit is enough for me. They won’t ever be satisfied.
I just looked there. Two people posted that even though Andy Martin is an anti-Semite, his research is basically good.
Huh?
These people hate Obama so much, they’ll make nice to avowed anti-Semites. That is classic mental illness.
You are attempting to use logic and reason. JTX is rather impervious to such.
Actually read who’s writing the comments. One of them was the author of the initial piece.
I just saw this list demanded over at RantRave.com:
Punahou School records
Selective Service Registration
Occidental College records
Passport (used to visit Pakistan)
Columbia College records
Columbia thesis
Harvard College records
Baptism certificate
Medical records
Illinois State Senate records
Law License application
Law practice client list
University of Chicago scholarly articles
Thanks, that’s an interesting article.
I went over and left a couple of comments.
“I just saw this list demanded over at RantRave.com:”
They forgot his NASA records.
Oh yeah, all those documents about why Obama was kicked out of the astronaut corps.
Here’s something you all my find interesting. Or something.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/03/obama-indicted-at-birther_n_210850.html
Swensson already has had a visit from the Secret Service. He says he got the two agents to agree with him.
Yeah, right.
These “grand juries” have also indicted my cat for murder of three mice. I’m expecting an arrest any day now.
They’re doing the same thing in Egypt. Some professors there indicted world Jewry for theft, and interest accrued, since leaving Egypt during the pharohs’ time.
I’m expecting a subpoena any day now.
I read this morning on a site someone asking how can Obama travel to Egypt without a passport. Yes, how indeed.
At the link to huffpo from Chris below, the writer calls it folie a plusieres, “madness of many”. Apparently DSM calls it “induced delusional disorder.” Oops, now we have to be careful, because they might claim our ridicule is discrimination under the ADA.
Don’t be surprised if they get deleted – censorship has always been pretty strong over at TexasDarlin’s place.
I’m curious as to what happened to her guest writer “Judah Benjamin”. He’s the one who originally came up with a lot of the claims about Obama not being the “right kind of citizen” and “loss of US citizenship due to being adopted in Indonesia” that are part of birther holy writ now. After the election he dropped off the face of the earth.
“Face it. Your messiah is a usurper and a criminal. He WILL be brought to justice!”
Ah, the mantra of the birther. Rocking back and forth muttering over and over and over “…any day now. He’ll be arrested any day now. He’ll be arrested….”
I’ve been hearing that particular claim since October of 2008, when PUMAs and Freepers were claiming Berg’s lawsuit was going to win and that Obama would be arrested for fraud any day now.
How’d that work out for you? Oh, right, Berg lost and Obama won. And now the Birthers, those mutant spawn of the PUMAs and the Freepers, continue their impotent mutterings of “…any day now. He’ll be arrested any day now. He’ll be arrested…..”
And why do you keep calling him a “messiah”? It’s only birthers and other crack-pots that use that term. Projection much?
Well, you see after the Fantasy Tiddlywinks People discover nobody in the REAL legal system is paying any attention to their “presentments”, then the next step is a “Citizens Trial” or something like that, where they can dispense with such quant principals as “innocent until proven guilty”, “impartial jury of one’s peers”, “code of law”, and other such nonsense.
Then after the pre-determined verdict (choose between “guilty”, “guilty” and “extra-crispy guilty with extra guilty on the side”), they can then call on their friends in the militias to come take President Obama into custody and carry out the sentence of their fantasy “courts”.
At which point they have breakdowns when they realize they’ve taken their fantasy tiddlywinks league to it’s ultimate conclusion and still nobody is taking them seriously.
If you notice, the birthers are riddled with anti-Semites, Christian Nationalists, white supremacists and assorted other kooks.
Then Orly and Berg hate Obama so much, they’ll overlook the anti-Semites. Can you say “unbalanced”?
And these ‘grand juries’ are kangaroo courts. They don’t want to protect the Constitution – they want their own wacko version of a white, Christian nationalist state. And they’re willing to make any kind of threat to try to get it.
Remember, during Reagan’s second term, Falwell gave a speech at his so-called Liberty University. He called the 1st Amendment “a mistake,” and proposed an amendment to nullify it, “with the Jewish people declared a protected minority.”
These people are the descendants – nothing more. As I posted before, Swensson got a visit from the Secret Service, and he was boasting that the two agents agreed with him. They’re really living in fantasy land.
I’m just afraid of another McVeigh (Christian Identity), or Tiller (fundie). At the core, these people are dangerous.
Anybody want to put any money on how soon they’ll link Obama to the crash of Air France 447? It’s bound to be included in the indictment.
Great idea. Let’s start a betting pool.
I say 72 hours, max. You’re on.
Is it going to be Martin, Berg, Corsi or one of the other roaches? Can’t wait.
There’s bound to be someone on that plane he wanted dead.
You know, I think the economy started getting really falling about the same time people started asking for Obama’s birth certificate. I think the birthers caused the recession.
The new big thing is asking for Obama’s I-9 form, where he had to prove he wasn’t an illegal alien to get his government job.
Just speculating, but I bet politicians are exempt.
You useful idiots are priceless. Denial til the bitter end. Barry’s a fraud, he’s conned you – not that most of you care. It’s all team play, right? Libs won. Yay. The Black friend you never had won. Yay.
“Getting” a birth record is not necessarily a “one time” event in HI. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Barry could have originally held a Cert of Hawai’ian Birth (program terminated in ’72), and later been issued a Late Birth Certificate. The electronic “Certification” format, first appearing on the Dailykos (for whatever bizarre reason) wasn’t in use until 2001.
You speak as though you’ve seen Barry’s archived original record. You don’t know how it’s “marked” or what the original record contains. The electronic “Certification” would not be “marked” with anything indicating an amendment has taken place in the past. That is false. As is your referring the “Certification” as his “birth certificate”. The electronic “Certification” would also reflect the most recently amended info – not necessarily what the archived original (whatever he has) contains.
Regardless, your idol acts guilty, don’t you think? Lot of cash flowing to Perkins Coie to fight these “frivolous” lawsuits. Lot of hidden records in general when you think about it. No college records. Why would a “genius” Ivy League superstar of academia not want to flaunt his brilliant schoolboy record? Certainly he’s got W’s C average beat? Why a six paragraph, one page note from his doctor in lieu of releasing medical records – as is customary of all candidates?
Your boy’s hiding something. You can ridicule people seeking his coming clean, and make up your own versions of Hawai’ian Vital Records laws all you like.
My guess is he gamed the financial aid system in college. We know he’s crooked little thieving fvcker, and has a special taste for jacking taxpayer money, (ask his beard about her raise).
According to State Law, the birth certificate is required to be marked if it has been amended in the past. Read Hawaii Revised Statutes, §338-16(a): “Birth certificates registered one year or more after the date of birth, and certificates which have been altered after being filed with the department of health, shall contain the date of the late filing and the date of the alteration and be marked distinctly “late” or “altered”.”
You can confirm what it says here:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0016.htm
Next time, actually do your research. It took me 5 minutes to dismantle the core of your argument. It’s been rather fun doing this. Next time, make an argument that is actually backed up by Hawaiian State Law, rather than your own wild accusations.
I’d point out that if a birth certificate were altered — for example, to correct an error or a name change — the copy of the originally issued birth certificate would not show subsequent changes. Whereas, the certified copy would include the data showing the alterations and the date. So a so-called “original” is LESS reliable than the certification. (I wrote “so-called” because of course NOBODY gets an “original” of the official document .. they start out with a copy that is issued to them by the hospital or health department.
It would probably be EASIER to perpetrate a fraud with such a copy, because someone could possibly make alterations to the face of the document that might not be detected. The certification & seal is an attestation by a neutral, government agent as to accuracy of the information.
Al, you may call me and others here “idiots”, but you didn’t bring out one fact in your rant in evidence that you’re right, or that we’re wrong.
I suggest you go read Hawaiian birth certificate regulations, which require that amended records be so marked. And because you don’t seem to be the one to take much initiative researching things for yourself, I will include the hyperlink so as to remove any excuse. http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0016.htm
Having now realized that you have been misled and lied to, should you want to purge your brain of the rest of the crap about birth certificates, go here. http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2008/12/not_born_in_hawaii/
Always please to be of service.
McCain campaign vetted Birther rumors
Found … nothing of any substance
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/?last_story=/politics/war_room/2009/07/24/mccain_birthers/
Oooooh, I bet that’s gonna pizz off JTX
The 1982 Hawaii Revised Statute 338-17.8 supercedes the 1949 Hawaii Revised Statute 338-17.8 with the following change:
“Territory of Hawaii,” changed to “Territory and State of Hawaii.
All other wording remains the same. Also, all original birth records remain stored in the basement of the Hawaii Department of Health. How would I know? Out of curiosity I requested a copy of my original birth record. (*Of course I still have my original.) I was sent one of those 2001 designed computer print outs instead of my original photocopy so I telephoned them. The conversation went like this……
Me: I had requested a copy of my original birth record, but received a green looking thing that isn’t my original record?
Them: Oh, we don’t make the photocopies of the originals anymore? We computerized the records years ago.
Me: So what happened to the original birth records?
Them: All birth records are stored in our basement, but we don’t make photocopies anymore.
Me: Well how about if I paid extra…can I then get a copy of my original?
Them: No, we don’t make photocopies anymore.
So are you stating that your copy looked like the one that the President released? And are you confirming that the HI DoH will only released the so called “certified copy” or COLB?