Conservative law student Jamie Freeze has written a scathing criticism of the birthers, those who believe Barack Obama was born outside the United States. Attorney Phil Berg, a leader in putting forward that version of the birther point of view, has replied in kind in a December 24, 2009 article, JAMIE FREEZE CALLS ANYONE QUESTIONING SOETORO/OBAMA’S CITIZENSHIP STATUS “INCOMPETENT IDIOTS” at his ObamaCrimes.com blog.
Berg, as an experienced litigator, immediately pounced on the weak point of Freeze’s article, its gratuitous insults, ridicule and name calling. Berg can cast himself as the wise instructor of the inexperienced student. He becomes a sympathetic figure, and quickly brings the jury over to his side. Whenever Freeze (or I for that matter), makes a gratuitous criticism or a sarcastic remark, attorneys like Berg (or Apuzzo) can pounce on it, answer it, and divert attention from the more substantial points.
For example, in a very long response, Berg fails to acknowledge and answer the fact that the head Hawaii Department of Health said unequivocally that Barack Obama’s birth certificate says he was born in Hawaii, but continues to claim that Obama’s birth in Hawaii is unsubstantiated. Berg continues to say that the COLB has been “deemed to be forged” while not admitting that those claiming it was a forgery were themselves fakes and forgeries (anonymous persons claiming credentials they never had and using fake analysis).
They cross swords over the situation that would be the case should Obama have been born in Kenya of a US mother and Berg continues to claim Obama’s name is Soetoro so that his campaign was a fraud. You can read it if you want. I’ve lost that fire in the gut to go swim in the sewers.
What attorneys must learn is to focus their message on what is necessary to persuade the audience, and not to try to appear sarcastic, witty, or irrelevantly well-informed.
predictably, ms freeze’s conservative membership card has just been revoked:
#67:
#72:
#75:
#82:
#125:
and my favorite, #132:
#194:
this sentence from #237 pretty much encapsulates the entire birfer dilemma:
What is with the use of “Obama lover”? It reminds me of the words “n- lover” being thrown around.
In the meantime, Berg is accusing Orly of hiding her assets to protect her and her husband in the event that she loses the Liberi lawsuit.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24568996/LIBERI-v-TAITZ-et-al-APPEAL-Emergency-Motion-filed-by-Appellants-Evelyn-Adams-Philip-J-Berg-Go-Excel-Global-Law-Ofc-of-Philip-J-Berg-Lisa-L
Dr. C, what I want to know is,
If the state of Hawaii maintains the original vital record according to state policy and procedure and it confirms president Obama was born in Hawaii and he is a natural born citizen.
Why not show the original vital statistics.
Common sense will tell you that if this was or is done, it sure would answer alot of questions for the ones who are not convinced.
Why the need to fight lawsuits, why the need to keep people divided on this issue when the simple release of the ORIGINAL data would make it go away, or at least some of it.
I know Apuzzo would still continue the two parent theory, but me personally, I think by not releasing the original vital statistics and putting up road blocks to prevent it just continues to keep the debate going.
Dr C can you give me a common sense reason why releasing the original data would be a bad thing to do.
1. Not a single lawsuit would be dropped. Even Berg who has said (not binding) he would drop his lawsuit if the documents were released has a long list, most of which don’t exist.
2. Given that the COLB was immediately called a forgery, why would a longer document meet a different reception?
3. In what form would it be released? The originals by law cannot leave the custody of the State of Hawaii. Thus only a copy could be released. And if they were posted on the internet, see #2 above. You might suggest that they be verified by some official body (a court, Congress). But they have already ruled on the matter and consider it closed. They are busy and see no reason to re-open a closed matter because some people aren’t happy with the results.
4. What information on them would change your mind? The name of a doctor who is almost certainly dead and wouldn’t remember a routine birth from 50 years ago anyway?
5. Precedent. Obama is not just a person, he now represents the office. He has to protect future Presidents from unwarrented fishing expeditions. This is not his personal call, but involves the Justice Department, which is charged with protecting the legal standing of the Executive.
6.What debate? All manner of things are discussed on the internets. Is there a single Congressional vote to be won or lost over this issue? No. Is there even a significant chunk of voters that would support Obama BUT for the birther concerns? No. Show me a single birther that supports Obama on the issues. I bet you can’t show me one. Therefore, this has no political significance whatsoever.
I could give you a dozen more, but I hope that suffices.
bdaman wants to know:
allow me to repost a response from may i gave to a similar question:
scientist, in vain:
these are birfers — if those answers sufficed, this site wouldn’t exist.
@ aarrgghh
Very well spoken, but lets say there are X number of birthers once the original birth data was released there would no longer be any birth data left that could be revealed.
I would assume that the X factor of birthers would decrease by an uncertain X number leaving the total number of x less than it was. Will it ever get to absolute zero, No
Look at Climategate, like the polar bears the number of skeptics has increased due to the release of what was hidden.
Obama is a politician. He cares about votes-in Congress and in elections. Would releasing anything pertaining to his birth change a single vote in Congress? Absolutely not.
Would it change any votes among the public? Let’s pretend Barack Obama were Barry White and his father was an African American whose ancestors came here in the 17th century. Let’s also pretend that there was irrefutable evidence he was born in Chicago. We will also stipulate that Barry White’s stands on the issues were identical to Barack Obama’s. What %age of birthers would support Barry White? I submit it is < 0.01%. So, there is nothing useful politically or legally to be accomplished.
The horse is not just dead, its dessicated bones are lying in the desert, bleached by the sun and the wind.
bdaman calculates:
you’ve missed my point — at one time this was a numbers game, but all that ever really mattered is what’s legally required and what’s reasonable.
in june 2008, obama publicly released his birth certificate, something no other candidate had done, something he was not legally required to do, but something he felt necessary because birthers threatened his campaign.
but after november 2008, birthers became irrelevant. in december 2008 they became doubly irrelevant when congress certified the election. in january 2009 they became triply irrelevant when obama was sworn in by the supreme court. in july 2009, they became quadruply irrelevant, if such multiplicatives have any meaning, when congress unanimously passed a resolution affirming hawaii as obama’s birthplace. congress was saying loudly and clearly that the door is closed on that issue.
so it hasn’t been a numbers game for over a year. it doesn’t matter how many birthers there are. no one who matters is making an issue of it. obama was never legally required to respond to birthers concerns and only did so to help his campaign and without credible charges to refute no one can reasonably expect him to pay birthers any further heed.
“Look at Climategate, like the polar bears the number of skeptics has increased due to the release of what was hidden”
I actually think your example is an excellent example of how critics will believe what they want, regardless of the documents.
Personally, I think what Hawaii should do is establish a little shrine, where for a small fee, any birther who wants to could personally go look at the original birth certificate through 3 inch thick plexiglass. Yes, this would violate several state laws, but think of how this would help Hawaii’s economy.
Bdaman: Dr C can you give me a common sense reason why releasing the original data would be a bad thing to do.
My answer to this question is the article I wrote: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/03/why-doesnt-he-show-the-damn-thing/
I think the “harm” is that it makes the birth certificate issue mainstream news, and will certainly create a new storm of speculation and conspiracies about why this one is no better than the last one. As things stand today, all the arguments have been made and answered. Why add fuel?
I personally know of no lawsuit that would “go away” if presented a birth certificate–certainly not Berg, Apuzzo or Taitz (and their army of plaintiffs).
Aarrggghh
so it hasn’t been a numbers game for over a year. it doesn’t matter how many birthers there are. no one who matters is making an issue of it.
So say you, but it boils down to openness and transparency then trust. If you don’t feel that someone is being open and transparent as they professed they would, than how can you trust that person. He is only hurting himself IMO. He should extend his hand by releasing the original data and the birthers just might unclench their fist.
Sfjeff the climategate scandal has had a big impact in just 60 days.
Climategate- Hide the decline
Phil Jones- CRU steps aside investigation underway
Michael Mann- Penn State University, investigation underway
William Connolley- canned as Wiki administrator confirmed to manipulate Wiki articles
Copenhagen- no binding agreement
Russia- confirms CRU manipulated data
World temperatures have plummeted with major records broken and more on the way. It’s all a shell game so people can get rich. A huge ponzi scheme.
Bdaman-I challenge you to show me a single birther who would become an Obama supporter given some document that hasn’t been made public. Unless there existsed a significant block of people in that camp, there is no possible up-side. None of the lawsuits would be dropped, and even if they were, who cares, since none of them is going anywhere anyway?
By the way, the openness and transparency related to governing, not sharing the intimate details of his personal life.
Good point…I was thinking the same thing…Kind if like in the early 70’s when the University of Alabama football team was still segregated played USC under coach John McKay the Alabama fans called all of the black players on USC “Leroy’s” so that they did not have to use the “N” word. It is obvious where they are going with this…
Interesting article…
“A former Manoa resident sent President Barack Obama an old photo of the two of them taken while they were third-grade classmates at Noelani Elementary School, requesting an autograph more than six months ago. He recently received the autographed picture back, as well as a personally signed thank-you note.”
“”He was a lot taller than me; he towered above most of us. I don’t know why I remember that photo, but maybe it’s because he had one of those personalities. Possibly because he was the only African-American” in a school predominantly attended by Japanese, Inoue said.”
http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20091228_third_grade_photo_captures_obamas_grin.html
Less people support him now with out it. His actions caused this. He has lost support from his own base. He is not who he said he would be to this point.
That of course is your opinion. They only way we will know for sure is on election day in 2012. Less than 1% of Americans even care about this so called BC issue. Most believe that the President is eligible and is doing a good job in a dificult situation…
Bdaman,
You sound like nothing more than a “concern troll” to me.
Obama *WAS* more open and transparent than any other president ever by releasing his birth certificate for people to view online during the campaign.
During that time, he also had the original hanging in his Chicago campaign HQ with an open invite for anyone to come in and see it. Several news organizations and other fact sites went there, touched it, photographed it, saw the raised seal and wrote about how they verified it.
The state of HI has stood by and verified it as well and confirmed that the ONLY version that is made available any more is the short form which he has.
His efforts to be open and transparent and “extend his hand” by sharing info that no other president had provided before only resulted in a “clenched fist” and the birther movement.
These crazy arguments have played out for over a year and a half now, in the news, in the courts, and online. In all that time, not one credible shred of evidence or credible argument has come forth to support that the President is anything other than a NBC.
Therefore, almost anyone who had legitimate questions or doubts that could be reasoned with has already been satisfied by now and are no longer of the “birther” mind-frame.
I seriously doubt that anyone who is still claiming to “innocently” bring up these questions at this late and meaningless stage of things will change their mind, no matter what evidence or facts are presented to them. They just want a reason to distrust and hate the President and will stick their heads in the sand and plug their ears to maintain their little fantasy worlds.
“By the way, the openness and transparency related to governing, not sharing the intimate details of his personal life.”
Well said, Scientist! This is really such an important point it bears repeating.
Dr. C, are you skeptical of this account? I was wondering about that comment because I had never heard of the President living in HI during that time…
“Less people support him now with out it. His actions caused this. He has lost support from his own base. He is not who he said he would be to this point.”
The reason that less people support him has nothing to do with any birther fantasies. There are reasonable people who disagree with many of the President’s decisions and actions- which was inevitable.
Look at the mess he inherited? A failing health care insurance system, an economy one step away from a Depression and two unpopular wars, not to mention Global Warming. Pretty much no way he would be as popular at the end of his first year.
His numbers right now match up with the end of Reagan’s first year. We will have to see where he is in 3 years. If the economy has recovered soundly his numbers will likely be up. If the war in Afghanistan goes in the toilet, his numbers will likely be down.
“World temperatures have plummeted with major records broken and more on the way. It’s all a shell game so people can get rich. A huge ponzi scheme.”
Oh so I wish. Global Warming is a fact. The only disagreement by anyone with credibility is whether it is caused by man. The release of the emails certainly did ‘hurt’ the cause of trying to prevent future damage to the environment, but that was achieved by cherry picking sentences out of context. There is no ‘proof’ that scientists are fixing the evidence.
Sadly, I fear that really we are too late to prevent much of the consequences, barring some amazing technological advances. I have a 10 year old daughter and I fully expect that in her life time that whole islands will disappear, the polar ice cap will melt entirely during the summer, that the change in rainfall patterns will result in huge displacements of population.
We are risking all of this simply so that the wealthiest of countries do not have to be inconvenienced.
This is a tangent unrelated to President Obama’s eligibility, but I am not surprised that a birther buys into the whole “Global Warming is a Conspiracy” idea.
I try to be skeptical of everything. Certainly an extended “visit with the grandparents” is plausible. Dreams from My Father is not encyclopedic. I remember exactly nothing from the third grade.
I’d note that school terms in many other parts of the world do not always run from September through June as in the US. I can’t find the dates for beginning/end of term in Indonesia, but in Malaysia and Singapore the school terms end in mid-November and new terms begin in January. (See http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Summer_vacation )
My observation, obama remains because people like you have given up, they seem to be afraid of work. He is a master of the system and the system is built to keep you and I in a certain place. Next and the most obvious, the birth certificate validation process obama uses is not acceptable for me to obtain a passport or a drivers license in my state, why is it accpetable to for for your ultimate commander in chief?
Oh, man, you nailed it. I’m only not a birther out of sheer intellectual laziness. Because, if I were a birther, I’d have to believe that Obama’s mother left Hawaii, where all her family lived and good medical care was available, and went to a third world country in the middle of an-anti colonial rebellion to give birth. Then I’d have to believe she smuggled her newborn into the US in a bag of coffee beans. Then I’d have to believe that at the age of 8 he renounced the US citizenship he never had, only to reclaim it a couple of years later. Then I’d have to believe that even though he was born in Kenya, he was also born in Hawaii, but can’t be President because his father wasn’t a citizen, even though 69 million voters, all legal scholars, all members of Congress and the entire federal and state judiciary say otherwise. I’d have to believe that a poker player, bad dentist and DWI attorney are the greatest legal minds of our time, despite their failure to win a single case. I’d also have to believe that Obama is an adherent of a monotheistic religion, while also following a man who called religion, “the opiate of the masses”.
Wow! Just typing that has exhausted me. I can only imagine how tired it would make me to actually believe that.
mike projects:
no, my friend, if anyone has given up, it’s you and your fellow birfers.
birfers have given up on democracy, the rule of law, the constitution and their fellow countrymen. they insist that all these things have broken down and must be discarded because …
… wait for it …
… their candidate didn’t win the election!
well, guess what? that’s how democracy works, according to the constitution, the “system” as you call it.
sometimes your guy doesn’t win. and when your guy doesn’t win, guess what? the winner gets to do stuff you may not like. that’s not tyranny, but democracy in action. and you know what else? you get the chance to try again every four years, according to the system. isn’t that neat?
but if you’re really unhappy with this setup, well, i don’t think this is the right country for you. if you’re looking for a country where one faction gets to run everything forever, you might like a place like north korea, as long as you make the right friends, of course.
So a COLB is not acceptable to obtain a US Passport? Do you read what you write or just make it up as you go along? You birthers cannot accept the facts so you make things up. Most Americans understand the rule of law and how the Constitution works. President Obama received the majority of the votes and the electoral votes, so he is President. He was born in HI so he is eligible…Those are the facts. Maybe in 2011 or so you will finally accept them…
Different States have different requirements. However the COLB is sufficient to obtain a US passport.
So are you against State Rights?
Stop embarrassing yourself Mike, you are basing your ‘arguments’ on flawed premises.
Tell us, why are you really objecting to President Obama?
Mike, I have a transcript of birth from my birth state. It does not have the information Obama’s does. For example, it does not give my city of birth. Yet, this document is enough for a driver’s license and passport. I can use it if I decide to run for President. You need to check and see if you are correct about the rules in your state. I repeat, I have checked this personally. Have you?
Mike,
I think President Obama remains because he was elected to be President, and his term hasn’t expired, and unlike Sarah Palin, he intends to finish the term of office he was elected to.
Given up? I still actively support the President, even as I don’t support every single issue on his agenda.
Mike from make-believe land says:
“Next and the most obvious, the birth certificate validation process obama uses is not acceptable for me to obtain a passport or a drivers license in my state, why is it accpetable to for for your ultimate commander in chief?”
Well Mike, I think we’re all laughing at you and calling you out on your utter made up lies here. The HI documentation he provided is exactly what that state provides. If anyone from HI went to any other state to obtain a new drivers license, that very same type of documentation would be accepted by every single other state.
It is obvious you are just making stuff up and are totally full of sh*t!
So, what you’re saying is you had to show your birth certificate to a bunch of people who didn’t work for your state’s driver’s license bureau on demand because they didn’t believe it was you and only after you proved who you were to a bunch of busy bodies who had absolutely nothing to do with the process of getting a driver’s license, you finally got one?
Seems I remember their candidate had a sticky “natural born citizen” issue also, but of course, they never talk about THAT!
Thank you. A work of art.