The “birthers” have really done a poor job mining Kenyan newspapers for references to President Obama being born in Mombasa. Maybe they should switch from Google to Bing for their search engine. I don’t know, but when I went digging, I found lots of material, for example:
The Daily Nation: Anti-Obama lunatics living in denial
They are living in denial. In America they are equated to lunatics, but their push to drop anything credible to force President Obama out of office includes forgery in the land of Obama’s father.
The group –” the birthers –” are the fringe “lunatics” who insist Obama is not a natural-born citizen –” a US constitutional requirement for the presidency.
… the birth certificate purporting Mr Obama was born in Kenya differs with genuine certificates issued in the early 1960s, the Nation can reveal.
Certificates issued during the colonial period were marked “Colony and Protectorate of Kenya”. Today’s have the logo of the Government of Kenya, with a seal.
The Daily Nation: Obama enemies’ bid to stain the audacity of hope
Fringe foes of Barack Obama are again turning to Kenya in what appears to be increasingly desperate attempts to discredit the Democratic Party’s presidential candidate.
The latest lines of attacks include a lawsuit charging that Senator Obama was born in Kenya and is thus disqualified from seeking the presidency on the grounds that he is not a US citizen.
The Standard: Say what may, Obama is Kogelo’s son ruling the greatest nation on earth
Following my article last week on whether Barack Obama deserved to get the Nobel Peace Prize, my inbox was inundated with emails from American readers seeking to know whether I have proof that Obama was really born in Kenya.
If he was born in Kenya, they theorise, he is therefore not entitled to claim American citizenship and the presidency of the United States.
I could not help laughing at those emails, most displaying a naivetÈ and lack of understanding of this sentence from last week’s article: “It seems Barack Hussein Obama, President of the United States of America (via a sleepy village in Kenya called Nyang’oma K’Ogelo) can do no wrong.”
To all the skeptics out there, here is one inescapable fact. There was a Barack Hussein Obama born in Kenya. He is the father of your president. He was a black man from black Africa. The name and the person Barack Hussein Obama Sr, came from a sleepy village in Kenya called Nyang’oma Kogelo.
And here is another inescapable truth: the fact that Barack Hussein Obama Jr was born in Hawaii …
The Nation: Kogelo big attraction for land buyers and business owners
According to the general manager of Mombasa based tourist firm, Kenya Easy Safaris, Mr Jones Skipper, since Mr Obama was elected US president, he, Mr Skipper had received numerous inquiries from tourists who want to visit Nyang’oma Kogelo.
“Right now I have two tourists from Poland who want to go to Kogelo and see where Mr Obama’s father was born,” he said.
The area is likely to attract more tourists to the western Kenya tourism circuit because of the association of the village to the American president-elect.
“Because of Mr Obama’s world-wide popularity, he can easily make Nyang’oma Kogelo a major tourist destination,” Mr Skipper said.
Hmmm, I wonder if the Kenyan Ambassador to the US had been reading that…
Doc,
You’re obviously doing your searches wrong and you’ve found all of the obot propaganda that has replaced the original articles that were scrubbed… 😉 You obviously don’t understand the birther rule of evidence:
“Any evidence that in any way suggests that the president was born outside the US is clearly credible and any evidence suggesting the the president was born in Hawaii is the result of a conspiracy and cannot be trusted.”
All of your quotes are worthless by this standard.
Interesting statement in the Daily Nation article: “Names aside, Mombasa, where the certificate says he was born, belonged to Zanzibar at the time , not Kenya.” I believe there was a “discussion” about this topic recently.
Yes, there has been quite a bit of discussion on this topic, quite a bit, here and elsewhere. I don’t know that the discussion ever reached a consensus and this is one question in my “don’t really know” category.
I think that Kenyan sources on Kenyan facts and Hawaiian sources on Hawaiian facts have extra credibility, there are no guarantees of accuracy or thorough research.
Interestingly, I found one Kenyan article that said that the COLB that Obama published included the name of the hospital where he was born. Always treat sources with care.
Dr. C – ” …the birth certificate purporting Mr Obama was born in Kenya differs with genuine certificates issued in the early 1960s, the Nation can reveal. Certificates issued during the colonial period were marked “Colony and Protectorate of Kenya”. Today’s have the logo of the Government of Kenya, with a seal.”
No, this can’t possibly be true! Littleboy “I, Lucas Smith” is the most honorable, outstanding person on the planet…
besides throwing hot oil on people, forging checks, claiming the Virgin Mary visits his house, trying to scam folks with his kidney, convicted felon, etc., etc.
That’s what made Jerry Springer a rich man.
Dr. Conspiracy,
Did you find any comments in Kenyan media about the statement (Obama was born in Kenya) recently spoken by one of the ministers in their government.
Was he also labeled as a lunatic?
Kenyan ambassador was very precise in his radio interview. If you listened the whole conversation, there would have been no confusion – there was no discussion about Obama’s father.
Kenyan ambassador was very precise in his radio interview. If you listened the whole conversation, there would have been no confusion – there was no discussion about Obama’s father.
Other than his subsequent recantation.
But I’m sure your vivid imagination has an explanation for that too.
The ambassador supposedly said Obama’s birthplace is “a well-known attraction”. I am planning a trip to Kenya in the fall and would be interested in visiting this “well-known attraction”. Would you be so kind as to link me to a tourist brochure or guide that mentions it, so that I can find it? A photo would also be nice. Surely, no tourist guide to kenya would fail to include such a “well-known attraction”?
No, I didn’t find any commentary on this one way or the other. However, from the little research I did, the man seems to be an important figure in the government and not a “lunatic” in any way. The most likely explanation is that he is no expert on where Barack Obama was born and just misspoke.
I listened to the whole interview. “Very precise” is not a phrase that fairly characterizes the it. Given the fact that a follow-up call resulted in a denial of the birther interpretation, and further that there is no well-known attraction in Kenya other than the birth place of Obama’s father, I think the birther interpretation is untenable. While Barack Obama Sr. was not mentioned, his birthplace is the one and only well-known attraction in Kenya. I can find you a dozen newspaper articles in Kenya about Kogelo village and how it is an attraction and how tourists are coming to visit it. The is not one mention about a birthplace for President Obama. At some point you have to take the facts into consideration when reading a text and stop insisting on a brain-dead literalism. Kenyans are not Americans, and their language and culture uses phrase like birthplace, home, soil differently than we do.
A misspoken statement by anyone in Birferstan always trumps a U.S. state’s legal authority guaranteed by the Constitution. Slander and libel and disrespect for our laws is the trademark of all paranoid, mentally challenged birthers.
I find it interesting that there has been no retraction of minister Orengo’s statement that Obama Jr. was born in Kenya. He said the following on March 25, 2010 in the Kenyan Parliament:
“If America was living in a situation where they feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the president of America? It is because they did away with exclusion. …”
The same Kenyan newspapers that you quoted attacking “birthers” in USA did not have any comments about their minister’s words?
Yeah, because politicians never lie or distort and are never mistaken when they make arguments for their positions…
What do you think the evidentiary value of minister Orengo’s statement is? (In any US court)
The same as Tim Adams statement being eligible in any court in the US….Not at all…Also what was interesting is that anyone would take this minister’s statement as any kind of proof. But these are the same people that would prefer to believe this minister rather than the governor of HI, who stated that Barack Obama was BORN in HI…..Now the question is who is more believable….Normal people would pick the American Republican governor of the state that Obama was born, especially since there has been relevant evidence produced that supports her statement. However the birthers would prefer to believe the Kenyan minister. Yet no one finds it curious that not one birther has attempted to contact this minister and get him on the record or to repeat his statement in a signed affidavit…..
How do Obama and Dr. Fukino fit into the group described by your statement: “politicians never lie or distort and are never mistaken when they make arguments for their positions”?
I’m not sure that Dr. Fukino is a politician and I’m sure you can find a quote from President Obama where he wasn’t 100% accurate (and President Obama’s statements aren’t being used to support his birth in Hawaii). You didn’t answer my question, so I’ll restate it: Who’s testimony should be given more weight in a US court investigating the president’s birthplace, Dr. Fukino or minister Orengo?
Governor Lingle lied when she said the following in a recent radio interview:
“…And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact…”
Unfortunately for her such press-release was never issued. Dr. Fukino never mentioned birth hospital.
She did, however, attend an anniversary at Kapi’olani where they played a video from the president saying he was born there – I don’t think that conflating that with press releases about President Obama’s birth is very much of a lie.
Another possible explanation is that Dr. Fukino told Gov. Lingle that Kapi’olini was listed on the original records that Dr. Fukino reviewed but that was withheld from the press release for privacy reasons. I would bet it is a certainty that Dr. Fukino passed along details such as this. Since the President subsequently sent the letter to the hospital acknowledging that he was born there Gov. Lingle may now have no reason not to confirm that fact.
Regardless, I think it is incorrect to call this a lie as much as a slip of the tongue during a radio interview. I would suggest it would be good if nc1 called Gov. Lingle’s press office for a clarification.
Why are birthers so fond of using the word “lie”? In order for a false statement to be termed a “lie” there must also be an intent to deceive. I think there is much more evidence of birthers’ “intent to deceive” than others.
Oh don’t start arguing with NC1 about lies. NC1 considers any misstatement of fact by anyone else a lie, but when NC1 does it, he blithely glosses over his own errors.
But back to the Kenyan minister- I think its an interesting question- why did he say what he said, and what did he really mean? Too me its just an oddity, but certainly I encourage any birther to investigate further- have you contacted the minister himself and asked him to elaborate? Asked him to explain why he thinks the President was born in Kenya- what he is basing his statement on?
Personally I would go with believing the Governor of Hawaii, and the Hawaii government officials charged with maintaining the documents a single unsupported statement from a minister in Kenya, but go tilt that windmill and let us know what you find out.
It’s not right to beat up on the birthers for speculating, while doing the same thing yourself.
The White House was asked about “the letter”, but was unwilling to state that the letter did come from Obama.
a letter on white house stationary signed by the president.
Is not speculation that Gov. Lingle attended the Kapi’olani ceremony where the letter was read aloud.
Here is the exchange between Les Kinsolving and WH Press Secretary Robert Gibbs:
If you choose to assume this is all part of a massive coverup that is your prerogative. I read it as Robert Gibbs being frustrated at having to answer Kinsolving’s stupid question. Kinsolving also repeats WND’s lies that the COLB was not a birth certificate. I doubt I would have been as nice as Gibbs.
You mean the letter Neil Abercrombie read from on January 24th, 2009? The same letter that was supposedly written on the very same day (see the date) in Washington,DC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1eUVCFlrIQ
Letters for commemorative events are often dated on the day of the event, even if they are written before.
Now that I have explained that to you, perhaps you could be so kind as to explain to me why, with the multitude of important things going on every day, why this is of even the slightest significance????
I’d say “You can’t make this stuff up”, but apparently you just did. How about supporting your argument?
Personal experince-I have done it myself. Are you happy now?
Now I must INSIST you tell us why it is of any significance. Why does it matter? Is this the sort of triviality you wish to occupy yourself with? I mean, when the grim reaper arrives for you and you reflect over your life, will your great accomplishment be, “I pondered the meaning of the date on a letter commemorating the hospital where someone was born 48 years ago?”
Bill,
I am trying to determine what your point is. Scientist gave you one explanation, you don’t find it plausible I guess- what is your theory? What is the significance of the letter having the same date as it is read? How does this change the narrative of where President Obama was born?
Yes, Bill, that sounds like a complete denial of the authenticity of the letter to me. If I don my Birther hat that is. 🙂
So typical! Ignore the origin of the discussion concerning the letter (Reality Check used it as support for Obama’s birth), and then ask why it is important.
If it is not important, I suggest you avoid using it as support in your arguments.
The letter has only minor historical and no legal significance. The fact that Obama was born in the state of Hawaii is not even in dispute. The birth certificate together with contemporary newspaper accounts clear up any doubts that a reasonable person might have. There is overwhelming evidence that he was born in Kapi’olani hospital including the account by Barbara Nelson , the President’s own words, and the fact that the women’s clinic that Stanley Ann used worked with Kapi’olani Hospital for deliveries.
That fact that Obama exists is all the evidence one needs to support that he was born. Do you wish to argue otherwise?
Would you care to explain, once and for all, why it matters what date is on a commemorative letter? And then perhaps you could explain why you think that a reporter should waste their opportunity to ask serious questions about the ongoing wars, the economy, health care, the environment or any or 100 issues that actually matter and instead waste every one’s time over a meaningless commermorative letter? Triviality to the nth degree.
Uoi must not be up to speed. You may accept an abstract published on a website (instead of being released to the MSM) to be definitive, but I don’t have to.
The newspaper are the result of a birth being filed with the DOH. They do nothing to support Kapi’olani as being that place.
The statement of Barbara Nelson carries little weight. I doub’t many of us would claim to remember the particulars of a 48 year old conversation and have them accepted as proof of an event. She could have just as well dreamed the whole conversation. (If you think not, show me some proof of her dinner.)
“the women’s clinic that Stanley Ann used worked with Kapi’olani Hospital for deliveries”
Where did that come from? Who used to work with what?
I suggest you put your claims to the same scrutiny you apply to the birthers.
Not to be rude, but may I ask who you are and why I should care what you accept or don’t?
It came from Eleanor Nordyke who gave birth to twins the following day at Kapi’olani. I personally spoke with Mrs. Nordyke and she also said this on an interview with Plains Radio. She said that the doctors providing Stanley Ann with prenatal care were on staff with Kapi’olani and did the majority of their deliveries there.
Could you name one government agency that would accept an image of a document posted on private web site as a proof of anything?
Bill, except that this is not just an ‘abstract’ published on the web. It is a copy of the originally certified certificate of live birth issued by Hawaii. How do we know this? Because at least one party- Factcheck.org bothered to contact the Obama campaign and ask to review it in person- if you haven’t read their review I suggest you do so.
I also point out that this is more than I have ever personally seen for any previous president.
See, I don’t really care what hospital President Obama was born in, just that he was born in Hawaii. And the COLB does confirm that, as well as the Hawaiian officials. Thats good enough for me.
Do you have any link to the story?
Does Eleonor Nordyke remember seeing Stanley Ann in the hospital or during the pregnancy?
“Could you name one government agency that would accept an image of a document posted on private web site as a proof of anything?”
I can’t imagine that any would. Clearly the posting on the web wasn’t meant to resolve legal requirements, only to assuage the fears of those who had heard the malicious rumors spread by those opposed to Obama.
However, since it has been verified by Hawaii that President Obama was born there, if any government agency asked for a copy of the COLB, it would be the same one that Hawaii sent then Senator Obama, and that he posted on the internet, and they would accept that copy.
More importantly, a certified copy of the COLB is prima facie evidence that the president was born in Hawaii in any US court and there is no evidence (admissible in court) that he was born elsewhere.
Hate to tell you this, Bill, but Factcheck.org is “Main Stream Media”.
I heard the interview on Plains Radio but it is now defunct. I suggest that you contact Ed Hale for a copy. As to your second question, I am sure that Mrs. Nordyke took time from delivering twins to inquire as to everyone else who was in labor at the same time she was. 😉
Mrs. Nordyke was speaking from her personal knowledge of the women’s clinic that Mrs. Dunham used.
You assume that DoH issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. How would you know the difference between a genuine COLB and a forged one?
The DoH refuses to confirm that they issued the document to Obama on specified date. There is no independent verification that COLB presented to the public is a genuine one.
Only a few handpicked left wing web sites got access to the COLB image. Why not release the COLB to the main stream media?
And the statement by Dr. Fukino, that Barack Obama was BORN in Hawaii confirms the information on the COLB. You keep forgetting that the head of the State of HI dept of health has CONFIRMED that Obama was born in HI. That along with the COLB, the newspaper announcements, and the statement by the governor of HI stating that President Obama was born in HI is enough confirmation for anyone. By the way the DoH has also never stated that the COLB was a forgery. You could be sure that if it was a forgery there would be no privacy regulations and they would have commented. Because if Obama was not born in HI, then there would not be the privacy issue because there would not be any birth records to protect…
“You assume that DoH issued the COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.”
No I don’t, and I never said that.
“How would you know the difference between a genuine COLB and a forged one?”
I wouldn’t. Of course if I personally saw a COLB with a raised seal I would generally accept it, unless I had some reason to assume otherwise. Of course, I have never seen any previous Presidents COLB and they somehow managed to be President for their full terms anyway.
“The DoH refuses to confirm that they issued the document to Obama on specified date.”
And I don’t care. They have confirmed he was born in Hawaii, thats all I need. That confirms the fact presented on the COLB and the only fact that matters.
“There is no independent verification that COLB presented to the public is a genuine one. ”
I suggest you read Politifacts analysis of the matter. The fac that Dr. Fukino has said unequivocally that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural born citizen- and that is wha the COLB that Obama presented to the public says is proof enough for me- and for any reasonable person.
“Only a few handpicked left wing web sites got access to the COLB image. ”
How do you know this? Only Factcheck reported asking for and reviewing the original COLB- but how do you know that Fox was denied access? Or the WSJ? I never read a WSJ article stating they were refused access.
“Why not release the COLB to the main stream media?”
Why didn’t the main steam media- even FOX and the Wall Street Journal- care? Because for reasonable people, any nagging doubts were erased by the publication of the certified copy, and then it was nailed shut by Factchecks review.
Did even that anti-obama WND ever claim they were denied the opportunity to review it? You know sometimes the opposition has to do some of their own work, rather than just demand an endless amount of ‘what if’s’ for Obama. I have seen no evidence that anyone was refused access to look at Obama’s original COLB, but I have seen evidence that the only organization that is on record of asking the Obama campaign to look at it, was given access and to their eye it looked genuine.
It appears the main stream media was satisfied with what the image they saw, especially as it was backed up by the statement from Hawaii. Why waste their time to report the obvious fact that COLB was legit and Obama was born in Hawaii.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-502163_162-4355527-502163.html
How would Elanor Nordyke know who Stanley Ann used for prenatal care? She never even said that she saw Stanley Ann at the hospital.
Now we have Stanley Ann using the same clinic that Nordyke used? I’m not buying it.
But that would mean work! And finding out inconvenient facts! If they dig too deep they may find out that President Obama really is the legal and duly sworn President! And where would that leave their carefully crafted conspiratorial fantasies, huh?
The CIA director also confirmed that Iraq had WMD ready for quick deployment. We know how truthful that claim was.
We have no idea what Dr. Fukino used as a source for her statement about Obama’s birthplace. It could have been an amended birth certificate. That would explain her reluctance to confirm that COLB was indeed issued to Obama on June 6, 2007.
Obama’s birth could have been fraudulently registered in Hawaii by a relative. Tim Adams’ story fits well into this scenario.
I believe that Hawaii does have a birth registration for Obama II that was filed with Hawaii on August 8th, 1961.
Anything more than that (from either side) is just speculation.
I disagree. If a fraudulent birth report was registered, Hawaii would have a long-form for Obama II.
I don’t believe the Tim Adams story.
“We have no idea what Dr. Fukino used as a source for her statement about Obama’s birthplace. It could have been an amended birth certificate. ”
Except that she confirmed that President Obama was born in Hawaii. No matter what kind of amended BC that was, if it stated ‘born in hawaii’ that means the offiical state records indicate he was born in Hawaii, and nothing else is relevant.
“That would explain her reluctance to confirm that COLB was indeed issued to Obama on June 6, 2007.”
I think her ‘reluctance’ is just weariness to responding to whacko’s, who aren’t willing to accept her clear and unequivocal statement that President Obama was born in Hawaii and are looking for any nits they can find to pick.
“Obama’s birth could have been fraudulently registered in Hawaii by a relative.”
And aliens from outer space could be walking amongst us. There is as much evidence for my statement as yours, and frankly no, Adams statement doesn’t support your theory
WND has asked Gibbs numerous times about the birth certificate – the answer is basically the same – it has been posted on the web.
That tells me that they do not want anybody independent from Obama’s regime to inspect the document presented to the Factcheck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VefT5Kme8TA
“I believe that Hawaii does have a birth registration for Obama II that was filed with Hawaii on August 8th, 1961.
Anything more than that (from either side) is just speculation”
Dr. Fukino saying that President Obama was born in Hawaii is not speculation. You can speculate on what document she based that upon, but it is an official statement from the empowered Hawaiian state official, and backed up by the governor of Hawaii. And since being born in Hawaii is the relevant condition for NBC we are talking about, that confirms his elgiiblity.
Factcheck saying that they reviewed a COLB with a raised seal that appears to them to be genuine is not speculation either.
I do wonder if their overall sloppiness in court cases (save for Orly, she’s just nuts) is the outcome of this fear. The denialists/birthers keep saying Obots running in fear but many of us know that if they ever got to discovery, they would not like result.
As for some of the followers, they just know that someone who is _____________________ (fill in your own reason here) could not possible be eligible. Therefore, no answer other than, not eligible, will every get through their head.
Tim Adams claimed that there is no long form birth certificate that originated in a Hawaii hospital.
It would be interesting to find out what kind of form was used for unattended birth registrations.
“WND has asked Gibbs numerous times about the birth certificate – the answer is basically the same – it has been posted on the web.”
That is what Sarah Palin would call “gotcha” journalism. Did WND ask to inspect the BC when it mattered- like Factcheck did- prior to the election? No evidence that they did. Matter of fact at one point WND stated that it appeared to be genuine.
“That tells me that they do not want anybody independent from Obama’s regime to inspect the document presented to the Factcheck.”
I figure when the sun comes up in the morning from the east, that tells you that Obama isn’t eligible.
Maybe you don’t understand the subject material! How do you know the birth registration was not fraudulent? Dr. Fukino never stated that the birth was attested to by the attending physician. Did she?
I doubt they used a different form. The “Signature of Attendant” would be left blank.
Do you know who the first U.S. President to be born in a hospital was?
That’s why I don’t believe the Tim Adams story. Did the long form exist, but not from a hospital? Why would he, or his superiors notice the difference? The only way to tell would be to look for the name of the hospital on the long form.
Born in Hawaii menas nothing if it was based on fraud. Why is Obama hiding the original certificate from public?
There are several million birth certificates stating that a person was born in Puerto Rico. Yet, they will be re-issued because of the massive fraud.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-06-14-puerto-rico-birth-certificates_N.htm?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomNation-TopStories+(News+-+Nation+-+Top+Stories)
I always thought it was just the Lionel Hutz School of Law in action, but that could be there too. If discovery completely shatters their case, there goes the Paypal account.
He said that his supervisors contacted two hospitals directly and that the response was negative – they did not have records of Obama being born in either hospital.
Adams never claimed that either he or his supervisors had access to actual records.
One of my biggest rpoblems with the Adams story is his crawling out from under a rock to tell it. Where has this guy been for the last two years? Why didn’t he post anything about this ANYWHERE on the web? Even if he told the story anonymously, we could find something to support that he didn’t just come up with it.
The Adams story reminds me of the former Marine who claimed to have had a conversation with teenage Obama.
In the original radio interview Adams implied that he had access to several systems that were used to determine that Barack Obama was not born in Hawaii. Once it became apparent that he had no access to any system that would tell him that, he changed the story to say that it was “common knowledge” in the office. When that didn’t sound definite enough, he changed the story again to calls to the hospitals (even though there is no possible explanation why the Honolulu Elections Division would be trying to verify the birthplace of someone who votes in Illinois). It should be apparent to anyone that Adams has proven himself a liar.
And there is no such program in Hawaii.
[Edited to add:]
The base problem with the Puerto Rican birth certificates is that birth certificates are often used (and wrongly so) as identity documents. A very large number of legitimate Puerto Rican certificates are “in circulation” leading to identity theft for the purpose of getting false identity papers. The problem is not that the birth certificates themselves are fraudulent, but that they are in the wrong hands.
What difference does it make if a White House correspondent asked to see a birth certificate before or after the election? Gibbs could bring the physical copy to one of the press-conferences and let all media representatives see it. What is so secretive about the document?
They could authorize the DoH to confirm the issuing of birth certificate to Obama or even better, let Kapiolani hospital release Obama’s birth registration record (if one existed).
The official bitrthplace story is a fabrication – that is why they cannot proceed in a straightforward fashion to close the issue. They have to continue playing games with the public.
You’re right. When Hawaii didn’t have birth records for people that claimed to have been born there; the DOH just created them.
Uhhh, FactCheck.org is someone independent.
Tim Adams just got some half-baked stuff off the Internet. Folks on this blog, even the birthers, know 10 times more about this stuff than Adams.
Maybe nc1 should have said non-partisan. I think release to a bipartisan media is more open and reliable. I don’t think Factcheck (owned by the Annenberg Foundation) or Politifact (owned by the St. Pretersburg Times) would meet that criteria.
I believe this will help you understand your line of reasoning and please for your enlightenment go to this link…
Occam’s basic rule was “Thou shalt not multiply extra entities unnecessarily,” or to phrase it in modern terms, “Don’t speculate about extra hypothetical components if you can find an explanation that is equally plausible without them.” All things being equal, the simpler theory is more likely to be correct, rather than one that relies upon many hypothetical additions to the evidence already collected.’
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/logic_occam.html
The keyword is “if”.
If Obama’s birth was not the result of a fraudulent birth report, he would have released it long ago. There is no good reason for him to endure the political damage that has resulted from questions surrounding his birth. This damage has also effected the incumbents running for reelection.
If Obama’s birth was not the result of a fraudulent birth report, it would be impossible for the Kenyan Minister of Lands to claim that he was born there.
If Obama’s birth was not the result of a fraudulent birth report, it would be impossible for a Kenyan birth certificate from Coast Province General Hospital to remain in question.
The immediate release of Obama’s long form would have put most (but not all) birther specualtion to rest. It surely would make it hard for the numbers to grow.
“Maybe you don’t understand the subject material! How do you know the birth registration was not fraudulent? Dr. Fukino never stated that the birth was attested to by the attending physician. Did she?”
I cannot say with absolute certainty that the birth registration was not fraudalent- I think very few birth registrations could prove that. I couldn’t even do that with my own birth. Even a birth registered from a hospital couldn’t be absolutely proven to not be fraudalent.
But what is clear to me is that there is an exisiting body of evidence, that supports each other, that President Obama was born in Hawaii
a) Obama’s own narative says he was born in Hawaii.
b) The COLB says he was born in Hawaii
c) Two birth announcements support that he was born in Hawaii
d) Dr. Fukino’s announcement says he was born in Hawaii
All of these support the same theme. The evidence to the contrary? Conflicting rumors and innuendo. We have multiple Kenyan Birth certificates, we have Adams wierdly self conflicting statements.
A rational person might look at the evidence and think- this makes sense. A rational person might think that if either Hilary or McCain thought that there was any chance they could disqualify Obama because he wasn’t eligible they would leap at it. A rational person might think that Micheal Steele would leap at any opportunity to go one step further of his usual opposition to anything Obama and declare that he doesn’t believe Obama was eligible.
A rational person might think that if Fox News thought Obama’s COLB wasn’t legitimate they would have scurried down with some quasi-experts to examine it and declare it a fake. A rational person might think that if the Wall Street Journal had any qualms about the veracity of Factchecks version they would have been forthcoming.
No, there are very few things in the world that I can say with absolute certainty is this way or that way. I believe that the U.S. landed on the moon because the facts that have presented makes sense to me, even if there is the possibility of fraud. I believe President Obama was born in Hawaii because the facts that have been presented makes sense to me, and the rest appears to be either efforts to deceive or misrepresentations of statements, statements often recanted by the speaker on the same occasion.
You significantly decrease the possibility of a fraudulent birth report when it comes from a hospital. Why? Because it involves parties that would most likely have no interest in the report.
“If Obama’s birth was not the result of a fraudulent birth report, he would have released it long ago.”
That is your opinion, not a fact.
“There is no good reason for him to endure the political damage that has resulted from questions surrounding his birth. This damage has also effected the incumbents running for reelection.”
What political damage?
“If Obama’s birth was not the result of a fraudulent birth report, it would be impossible for the Kenyan Minister of Lands to claim that he was born there.”
Ummm again unsupported opinion. Clearly people can make mistakes in fact, or lie. Have you asked him to clarify his statement or provide some rational why he knows this?
“If Obama’s birth was not the result of a fraudulent birth report, it would be impossible for a Kenyan birth certificate from Coast Province General Hospital to remain in question.”
Remain in question by whom? And why only that BC, not the other two?
“The immediate release of Obama’s long form would have put most (but not all) birther specualtion to rest. It surely would make it hard for the numbers to grow.”
Just like Obama posting his COLB satisfied everyone who doubted his U.S. birth?
If I were Obama I wouldn’t give birthers a thing. They wouldn’t vote for him anyway, Birthers like Orly taint the Republican Party with pure whackiness, and I would be offended that I was the only President ever to have his ‘American-ness” questioned.
If I were Obama I wouldn’t pay $15.00 to assuage a Birthers fears.
So as long as Obama and his grandmother tell you he was born in Hawaii, we should give him the keys? Both the newspapers and Dr. Fukino could easily be relying of a false birth report. ***How many fraudulent birth reports has Dr. Fukino reported? Do you know of anyone not born in Hawaii having a Hawaiian birth certificate? You probably didn’t even know that when people claimed to have been born in Hawaii, but no records existed, the DOH created records for them.
You’ll have to excuse me if I rely more on a “trust but verify” application
I’ll pay it for him. 🙂
Yes, it changes it from being extremely improbable to nearly impossible.
“You significantly decrease the possibility of a fraudulent birth report when it comes from a hospital. Why? Because it involves parties that would most likely have no interest in the report.”
So we are talking the amount of possibility?
What you are saying is that there is a possibility that President Obama was not born in a hospital, and that if he was not born in a hospital that there is a higher possibility that the birth registration was fraudalent. Without having any evidence that he wasn’t born in a hospital or that there was any fraud.
I would say that there is always a possibility of fraud. But that when the head of the department responsible for it says that he was born in Hawaii, the possibility goes way down that he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I would say that when the Governor of Hawaii goes to the trouble to make a statement that the President was born in Hawaii, that the likelyhood of the Governor stating that without making pointed inquiries goes way down.
But if the original paper birth certificates comes out, and it says it was filed by Stanley Ann Obama (the grandmother thing is not possible under the law at the time), your case is over. You lose. There is a long form. It confirms Obama was born in Honolulu. You can simmer your conspiracy theories until the Sun implodes; they will never be anything more than conspiracy theories. (Yes, I know that even evidence that contradict a conspiracy theory strengthens the theory; however, the whole “Where’s the birth certificate?” thing falls apart–very bad for the birthers.)
“So as long as Obama and his grandmother tell you he was born in Hawaii, we should give him the keys? ”
Do you know what we would call Obama if the BC shows that he was born at home and his grandmother registered for him? Mr. President. Doc has pointed out before that this scenario is not really possible- not in a real sense- though it is in the way that a comet could hit the earth this year.
“Both the newspapers and Dr. Fukino could easily be relying of a false birth report. ”
Sure- they could- but I will more likely rely upon Dr. Fukino who actually looks at the documents than the speculation of Birhters.
“”***How many fraudulent birth reports has Dr. Fukino reported? Do you know of anyone not born in Hawaii having a Hawaiian birth certificate? You probably didn’t even know that when people claimed to have been born in Hawaii, but no records existed, the DOH created records for them.”
Isn’t that pretty much the essence of home birth registrations? Isn’t that pretty much the same case of all Presidents prior to Jimmy Carter?
“You’ll have to excuse me if I rely more on a “trust but verify” application”
Then you should have been asking this more often prior to the election. Really its moot at the moment. Fun to argue but your speculations, and our disagreement on their meaning are irrelevant to the Presidency itself.
The supposed “fraud” (pure fiction) would have been committed almost 50 years ago by people who are all dead. How do you propose to establish it? What can you do about it? What difference does it make today?
Answers:
1. You can’t
2. Nothing
3. None.
One has only to look at the political result of Obama releasing his perfectly ordinary Hawaiian birth certificate in 2008 to see how ridiculous that statement is.
Very Funny! I don’t dread the day that Obama releases his long form. He will not. He will gladly go away after one term.
I see the similarity, but Tim Adams is a real person with a real name and a history. There’s no evidence I know of the that this anonymous marine ever existed.
If you performed some research, you would know who made the statement. I know who it is. I don’t know if his statement was true, or the product of a partisan dream. The person who made the statement is extremely partisan. He is a former marine, and he was stationed in Hawaii. I just find it to be a strange conversation to have, and a strange memory to recall. Besides that, it would be his word against Obama.
FactCheck.org is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. UPenn is a 501(c)3 organization. It’s not “owned” by the Annenberg Foundation (Annenberg himself was a Republican). Your comment is total and complete nonsense.
It is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania, and is funded primarily by the Annenberg Foundation.
Who currently chairs the Annenberg Foundation? His daughter. She is extremely progressive.
Only a total idiot would consider Factcheck to be a representation of a fair and balanced assesment of the facts. Factcheck is an organization with a provent trackrecord of telling lies.
I believe the birthers would say “If you knew who said it, you would have named the person, rather than allowing doubts of your veracity to swirl and grow because of your silence. What are you hiding?”
If I knew who said it, and was using them as support for my position; you might be right. However, outing someone for the shear joy of feeding them to the Obots would be pretty childish.
Who knows? The former Marine may be telling the truth, or (at least) he may believe that the event did take place as he recalls it.
You sure base your claims on a bunch of ifs and proving of negatives. If you give a mouse a cookie he’ll ask for a glass of milk if you give him a glass of milk he’ll ask for a napkin… etc etc.
Obama did release his birth certificate and that was not enough for the birthers even much so that they’ve now started jumping to the “two citizen parents” claim. Which other president has released his Birth Certificate during his term?
And instead we should rely on mere speculation and conjecture that you and your fellow birthers use to disqualify him? How many other presidents were held to such stringent standards that you place on the presidency at this time and not others?
State officials have verified Obama’s claim. Who exactly has verified yours?
Ok, start listing them.
Are you calling Dick Cheney a total idiot when he used it as a source during his debate?
Childish is how you prattle on about stuff without having any evidence to prove your points. If you weren’t interested in a dick measuring contest you wouldn’t come here claiming you know who said it without saying who said it. You’re trying to establish some sort of credibility more than you actually have.
Jimmy Carter was the first President to be born in a hospital. As such, it would be hard to ask for “the birth report showing the hospital and name of the attending physician”. Those who followed Carter would have all been military (military had already obtained their birth records), except one; Bill Clinton.
Can anyone provide us with a newspaper article or news article that informed the voter of the situation? Did anyone ever make sure the voters knew that the identity of Clinton’s parents had not been confirmed?
Without the internet, we would never know that Obama’s birth history is being questioned. It took The Globe to introduce it into the mainstream. (not that The Globe is widely read, but the cover is viewed by many in the checkout line.)
They verified nothing more that that a birth registration, indicating that Obama was born in Hawaii, does exist.
Tell us exactly what you know (without making use of speculation).
Who cares? The President’s parents have no official position. In many cases they are dead when the President takes offoce.
Why do you focus on trivialities?
So, what you’re saying is that the lack of evidence, is evidence of the negative? That’s another fallacy. It’s called “Argument from ignorance”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_Ignorance
Furthermore, you’re doing it badly, because we have tons of evidence that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. You just don’t want to accept the evidence. You’d much rather cover your ears, close your eyes, and yell at the top of your lungs, “That’s not true.”
We have a certified birth certificate from the State of Hawaii that says that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. If you’re unwilling to accept that, then you are also unwilling to believe that 95% of all citizens can prove that they are citizens of the United States.
That document means that Barack Obama has proven that he is a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. That shifts the burden of proof to you. You state that the birth certificate must have been made based upon a frauduent registration. Do you have any evidence of this? Or are you arguing that since there is no evidence to the contrary, it must have been? Do you have any evidence that Stanley Ann Dunham would have broken the law with the only purpose to give her son, 35+ years down the road, the ability to become President? Do you have any evidence that the State of Hawaii didn’t follow their obligation to investigate these births? Furthermore, how do you explain that Obama was registered 4 days after he was born? How did Stanley Ann Dunham get back from Kenya in just 4 days, when air travel would have taken at least that long to get from Mombasa to Hawaii, and they were a lot less likely to allow a new-born to travel?
If you were paying attention, you would know that Dr. Conspiracy stated that it didn’t come from a real person. I know who made the statement. Therefore, it is a statement that was made by a real person. If you think taunting will encourage me to disclose the identity of that person, you’re sadly mistaken.
I know that this is the first time any block of people have gone nuts over a president enough to call for him to release his long form, that they say his actual birth certificate is not good enough. The state confirmed his registration was in order and is on file. That would hold up in court and is good enough. I know that a background check was done before he entered the Illinois State house, the US Senate, and the presidency. I know that the congress who verifies elections upheld the election results, I know that the supreme court already decided on this when he was swore in. I also know you birthers have no shot at overturning the election no matter how upset you are. How many other presidents have you asked for their long form?
Piss poor argument. You have an abstract based on what could very-well be a fraudulent report. Nothing eliminates that possibility. Absolutely nothing.
Scientist to birthers adopted kids have no claim to the presidency as well as kids born out of wedlock or rape
Do you really need to make stuff up in order to support your claims? Tell us who stated anything about Obama’s original records being “in order”.
Yeah its also possible that you were born on the planet melmack and are an illegal alien. But plausible? No. We have a government document which is the same thing you would get if you applied for a birth certificate after losing yours. Which is prima facie evidence in court.
Maybe. But you have never been able to show even ONE example of a fraudulent HI COLB or a registration by a so called relative. Adams story is a fabrication no matter how you examine it. He had no reason to check. He had no access to the relevant databases. And most of all his position and time of employment does not fit. Can you provide an example of a fraudulent COLB? Show us an example of a relative registering a birth in HI? Until then all you have is ridiculous speculation. Where you lose any credibility you may have had is that you attempt to defend the unsubstantiated statement of Adams and in the same breath attempt to discredit the statement of the only individual that legally has access to said record and has stated on the record that the evidence she has viewed shows that President Obama was born in HI. If you are so confident in the Adams fabrication ask yourself one question. Why hasn’t he filed an official affidavit regarding his hearsay statement. Remember his evidence was that he heard that the record did not exist. That is a fable, not any type of real evidence….
More unsupported claims, Bob Ross?
So? Please explain clearly how you would show fraud from 50 years ago and what you would do about it. Moreover, what difference does it make? It’s like trying to prove someone else wrote Shakespeare’s plays. Even if so, so what? The plays are what they are.
I didn’t need to make anything up. “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago” Dr Fukino stated she saw the original records on file verifying Obama was born in Hawaii. What don’t you understand Bill? So lets stop making stuff up about people you claim to know. Do you have any proof Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii?
Nothing unsupported about it. All government officials have background checks done. Have you ever held a job with the government Bill? Or do you fear the government?
And the entire State of Hawai`i.
“prima facie evidence” And what is better than prima facie evidence?
All together now… CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE.
In this case, the conclusive evidence (submitted by a party who is not connected to the Obamas) is allegedly available, but being withheld in order to protect his privacy.
What is on the original that is a matter of Obama’s personal privacy?
Again jumping around did you ever answer which other presidents have released their birth certificate let alone a COLB? The COLB was verified by the State of Hawaii which is run by the Republican Governor. Do you have any evidence to bring to the discussion or are you just going to continue pissing in the wind bill?
Who cares? Why don’t you post under yor real name, with address, EMail and phone? You have nothing to hide, do you? Well, do you?????
So when given evidence you just want more evidence. That’s not how the rules of evidence work. You are the accuser you have presented no contradicting evidence which would make the prima facie evidence not good enough.
More untruths from Bob Ross. Do you ever stop?
Nothing untrue about it Bill. You’re the one claiming something that isn’t based on brain farts. Again do you have any evidence to show Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii
When the only place you permit to have the evidence is a partisan supporter, I question it. When the COLB was lacking the seal, I questioned it.
Give me a birth certificate with a seal. I will scan it and show you that the seal is clearly visible. Obama’s is the only Hawaiian COLB I have seen where a scan of the document did not reveal the seal.
Who was the partisan supporter? No one else asked to see it before the election they were given ample opportunity to see it. The factcheck image shows the seal on it. Try scanning your COLB in and see how well the seal shows up.
I don’t have access to any records – I can only speculate based on available circumstantial evidence. There would be no need for any speculation if Obama would release the original birth certificate.
Actually, the DoH could confirm that they issued the COLB on June 6, 2007 – Obama already made the information public. Nobody could go after DoH if they confirmed it.
The fact that they would not do it tells me that the COLB is a forgery.
I have plenty of integrity. I’m not the one coming in here claiming the president wasn’t born here contrary to all the evidence. I’m not the one claiming I know a soldier who made a claim without naming the supposed anonymous marine. Hawaii verified that he is a natural born subject and was born in Hawaii. Factcheck was nonpartisan enough for Dick Cheney to use them as a source during his debate with John Edwards.
Now how about this do you think John McCain was a natural born citizen and was eligible for the presidency?
Or can you prove that Sister Sarah was eligible for the (Vice) Presidency? There’s all those Canada rumors.
Bill:
It is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the Annenberg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania, and is funded primarily by the Annenberg Foundation.Who currently chairs the Annenberg Foundation? His daughter. She is extremely progressive.Only a total idiot would consider Factcheck to be a representation of a fair and balanced assesment of the facts. Factcheck is an organization with a provent trackrecord of telling lies.
1. Name the lies that Factcheck.org has told. Provide them with the same documentation that Factcheck provides, by going line by line, proving them to be lying. In fact, I haven’t heard one thing against Factcheck, until they came out with their assessment.
2. Factcheck.org is directed by a guy (not a girl) by the name of Brooks Jackson. Brooks Jackson is a journalist who covered Washington and national politics for 34 years, reporting in turn for The Associated Press, the Wall Street Journal and CNN. At CNN he pioneered the “adwatch” and “factcheck” form of stories debunking false and misleading political statements starting with the Presidential election of 1992. His investigative reporting for the AP and the Journal won several national awards.
3. If you really want to follow the money, then you’d have to go back to Leonore Annenberg, who actually voted for John McCain.
Now, that you’ve actually committed another logical fallacy (ad hominum), you can go away now.
Bill:
Piss poor argument. You have an abstract based on what could very-well be a fraudulent report. Nothing eliminates that possibility. Absolutely nothing.
Actually, we have an “official Hawaii state birth certificate” that the State of Hawaii has vouched for. You have innuendo and saying, “well, it could be based upon fraud. Of course, I have no evidence of the fraud. But it could be based upon a lie.” That’s not an argument. You have absolutely no evidence that it’s based upon fraud. And yet, you want Obama to prove something beyond the doubt that you have.
Under the burden of proof that you want Obama to adhere to, no U.S. Citizen born in the United States would ever be able to prove their place of birth. After all, every one of those births have the slight of possibilities that those could be fraudently registered. As nobody can ever prove their citizenship, we should deport absolutely everybody to Canada, and then dissolve this country, because obviously, if you cannot prove your citizenship, then you should be there.
First, you state that Obama should release it to the Main Stream Media. When it’s pointed out that he’s done that already, then you state, “But those sources are biased. They could be lying.” You have no evidence that they are lying. They even took pictures, and you have no record to ever prove them lying, and they are 100% more reliable than any of the sources that you are relying upon in your assessment.
So you have no evidence that there has ever been any fraudulent birth registrations in HI but for some reason you think that Obama’s is fraudunet because you don’t like the COLB that has been released. Interesting. The DOH can’t confirm anything because of Privacy laws. It seems that you feel that these laws should not apply to the President. In a recap you have no evidence of fraud, nor have been able to provide any examples that HI has ever issued a fraudulent COLB or accepted a false birth registration from a non parent relative. But this lack of evidence is somehow evidence that there has been some sort of fraudulent activity. Wow. I am glad you are not on a criminal jury. Lack of evidence is not evidence of anything other than the fact that there is no evidence of fraud or of a birth anywhere other than HI. And that is why the birthers fail every legal issue. Lack of understanding of the law. In the real world you have to prove your accusation. Saying that if he had it he would have produced it is not evidence. It is just an example of wishful thinking by the birthers…
More false statements. Why? Show us where Hawaii has vouched for the COLB!
Keep posting. I like to keep the Obots earning their keep.
No, nc1. This is what would happen if he did exactly that.
1. The Birthers would claim that it’s forged, or fraudently registered. I mean, doctors can be bought off. (remember, Birthers have no problem disparaging the reputations of those both living and dead. Why would they accept the word of someone who is dead now, when they can just disparage him and say, “It’s not true”.
2. The birthers would then claim that it doesn’t actually prove anything. They would move onto their favorite de Vattel definition.
3. They would ask for more information.
The simple fact is that Obama has provided a “valid Hawaii state birth certificate” that meets all the requirements that the Federal Government has for proving the place of birth. The fact that a fringe minority of the American public hasn’t accepted it, means absolutely nothing.
Easy…
“I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the information on file [with] the Hawaii department of Health.” Alvin T. Onaka — Hawaii State Registrar.
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_7.jpg
But the funny part is that Obama is still the President of the United States and will be until at least 2013. All the birthers have is that they have lost almost 70 cases, won none, and are the punch line for all late night TV comics….Every OMG moment, every fake Adams story, every fraudulent Kenyan BC just comes along and means nothing. All we see is that sites like WND and the Post and Fail exploiting the ignorance of the birthers by conning them into donating money for stupid faxes to Congress and billboards that in the greater scheme of things will mean nothing. Barack Hussein Obama is the President of the United States…
Bill run along now. People have already shown you and you continue saying the same stuff without answering any questions anyone throws at you. You have no integrity, no credibility
Best we refer to that as an act of desperation. A stamp, on the backside of SOME document, is pretty useless.
If I show you that stamp on the back of another document will you accept it as being “verified” by the State of Hawaii?
You can’t see the seal for the same reason you can’t see that the COLB says Obama was born in Honolulu: willful blindness.
One more personal attack against someone here and you’re banned.
The COLB is conclusive evidence in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, of which there is none. It doesn’t matter what are Obama’s privacy rights or what’s on the birth certificate. State law prohibits disclosure. End of road.
Ummm, the Obama campaign posted the COLB image to its website. Do try to pay attention.
A stamp and a seal on the back of the document, Bill, which just shows me that you did not look at the image I posted. What you’re wanting us to believe is that Factcheck took pictures of 2 seperate documents in order to willfully decieve the people. How many more people are you going to bring in on the conspiracy in order to make your conspiracy work? Right now, you’re upto about 100 people.
It’s the same seal that is displayed on the photos of the birth certificate, that you can get by these two links: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_6.jpg
So, as you can plainly see, the birth certificate does have a seal on it. It is valid State of Hawaii Birth Certificate.
And that is what defines a troll. We ban trolls here.
Pure BS in both sentences.
There’s been no political damage – nutcases and evil folks (like you!) who would never vote for the “scary black man” are meaningless, regardless of what Obama does.
An image presented on a non-government web site is not a proof of anything. Federal government will not accept such an image if a private citizen tried to use it as a proof of birthplace.
Give me one legitimate reason why wouldn’t Obama authorize the DoH to confim the authenticity of the COLB presented by his campaign.
It’s 10:43 Obamaconspiracy time. I won’t bother posting any replies, as Dr. Conspiracy has all of my comments waiting for moderation.
I much preferred the village idiot mocorrupt, to the bully mocorrupt.
Wow. Just wow. Just what do you think certification and seals mean, anyways? Those are *exactly* the methods used to indicate the authenticity of documents by government entities, etc. So, the stamp is just the opposite of “useless”…it is the very thing that gives the document its official legal weight.
Talking about totally “jumping the shark” to absurdity in your argument! LOL!
The burden of proof still rests upon you, the accuser….as it always has to back up your claims.
Come back here when you have any actual evidence to support your silly endless loop of paranoid conspiracy speculation. So far that is all you have provided – mere meaningless assertive boasts, suspicions and gripes, with nothing whatsoever at all relevant to back them up.
And the people are not the Federal Government, nc1. Obama has to do absolutely nothing on that.
What exactly do you expect Barack Obama to do? Order 200 million copies of his birth certificate, and mail one to every potential voter in America? That should only cost him about a billion dollars. How do you expect candinates to disseminate information? Obama did the most democratic thing. Took an image of the birth certificate, and put it up on the Internet so that everybody could see it for themselves. They further invited various groups up to inspect it, photograph it, and allowed those photographs to be disseminated over the Internet. Only one group took him up on that offer. What more do you expect him to do? He’s provided a valid Hawaii State Birth Certificate. He further allowed the Main Stream Media to photograph that birth certificate, and disseminate it.
That has done nothing to make the willful ignorant accept his legitimacy to be President. Furthermore, they’ve already decided that he’s illegitimate no matter what he shows, so why should he humor a bunch of people who will never accept his Presidency? Like I said, the definition of Insanity is doing the same thing, and expecting a different result. Obama released an official Hawaii state birth certificate. He disseminated that information the fastest way possible, and allowed it to be viewed by as many people as possible. Then he further allowed it to be photographed by the Main Stream Media. None of this has done anything to dispell the rumors. Why should he believe that releasing more information will turn any of these people to believing that his Presidency is Legitimate, when they’ve already decided that it’s not?
They’re not in moderation; I deleted them. You’ve exceeded your quota for sniping for today.
More important things to do.
Why do you think that an internet image would be presented to a Court? If it were ever necessary for Obama to present his BC in a Court he would be giving them a signed, sealed piece of paper originally produced by the HI DOH. Or better yet, he would have the DOH send the copy directly to the Court, eliminating any chain-of-custody issues.
Well if you didn’t come off as a pissed off whiny paranoid drunk your comments wouldn’t get deleted.
Again will such silly false-trope arguments. Think for a moment what you are saying. Are you really that naive to not understand the difference between posting something online so the general public can see it (the online COLB) you are complaining about and any standard government process for verification?
Hint: He would go to any requesting agency and provide them with the actual paper document for any needed verification. Same process that everyone follows in these situations. *DUH!*
So, by your nonsensical viewpoint, should I assume that you don’t exist at all, because I haven’t seen YOUR birth certificate anywhere? You must be an illegal alien or a mere figment of my imagination.
So, why don’t you mail all of us a certified paper copy of your birth certificate to prove that you are legit…*snark*
Those official agencies have the right to ask for proper documentation. You do not have the right to be notified about their requests, unless you are personally the one being requested to provide such information. You can not say that he has not done such things and shown his actual documents to the proper authority whenever needed, because you have no evidence to back up such specious assertions.
Obama posting his COLB online for public viewing was his own doing and had never been done before by ANY presidential candidate, nor is there any requirement to do so. He did not have to do that and you would have had no right whatsoever to even see that online scan, had he decided not to do so.
He has no reason to respond or care about you birthers and your silly demands as they are not standard nor have been demanded of any candidate in the past. You are not any official agency nor authority that would have the rights to request such information.
So go on and continue to question, demand and gnash your teeth and stamp your feet all you want. Nothing changes the reality that you are simply not entitled to such information whatsoever at all.
I think the following about covers it. “In order” and “in accordance with state policies and procedures” sounds roughly equivalent.
I would point out to some folks who have said that they didn’t know what Fukino based her second statement on, that this addresses that point. Fukino viewed the “original birth certificate.”
Now you said that if I researched it, I could find out the name. That means the name is public. So if it is public and you know it, what is it you have to hide? Why are you inviting folks to believe you just made it up, and are trying to bluff your way out of it? Are you the Marine? Did you make up the story yourself? Inquiring minds have questions! (Taunt, taunt, taunt.)
Reports at the time gave no name to this anonymous Marine.
Actually, Cheney said “FactCheck.com” rather than “FactCheck.org.”
I like the way the Birthers want to apply the Federal rules of evidence to Obama’s birth certificate that was posted on the internet. It is as if they are all dreaming they were prosecutors empowered to remove the President if they cannot prove the authenticity of the document to their satisfaction. TS guys and gals. You aren’t empowered to do crap other than vote like all the rest of us.
But, but, but you said:
I’m having a really hard time reconciling those statements. First you chide me for not doing research and then you suggest that the information is private and disclosure would be “outing” someone. I fear you’ve been caught in a lie. Now that in and of itself is no big deal; after all, this is Obama Conspiracy Theories, a whole belief system founded on lies.
You’re welcome to explain yourself (and it will make it out of moderation eventually).
Yeah but remember George Soros took advantage of that and set up factcheck.com. So in turn Dick Cheney thinks Soros is an unbiased source
I think you missed the thread. There is no program to reissue all birth certificates in the state of Hawaii because of of past fraud. Hawaii doesn’t have such a fraud problem.
I think you failed to do enough research. Hawaii (namely the DOH) has (in the past) created birth certificates for those who claimed to have been born in Hawaii, but the DOH was unable to find any record of their birth in their files.
That is what he said after he changed his story. The original radio interview said that there was no long form birth certificate and he implied that he knew this because of the Social Security and NCIS and other systems.
But you don’t know who the image was sent to. All you know is that three sites (only one of which could be reasonably described as left wing) published it as coming from the Obama campaign.
But this is the Internet, remember. Releasing it to one is releasing it to all.
Why is it that Obama would not authorize the DoH to provide a simple Yes/No answer to the question whether the COLB was issued to him on June 6, 2007?
I think that he cannot do it because no such document was issued to him. That is why he is fighting for the dismissal of eligibility lawsuits. He does not want to present the evidence about his birthplace in a formal way.
Oh, you mean the Certificate of Hawaiian Birth program. I don’t need to research that; I’ve written about it here on the blog. That’s really a very different thing from what is happening in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is invalidating birth certificates because they are many in the wrong hands, not because there is anything wrong with the certificates themselves.
The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth (which is distinct from the Live Birth certificate Obama has) was a program for Hawaiians (primarily Native Hawaiians) whose births were never registered. Under that program, an applicant could present affidavits from persons who had personal knowledge of the birth. The Certificate of Hawaiian Birth program was ended in 1972. Registration of births in Hawaii has been mandatory since at least the 1950’s.
There was one famous case of a fraudulent Certificate of Hawaiian Birth, to Sun Yat-Sen.
Only factcheck had access to a paper copy of the alleged Hawaii COLB. Nobody else.
The White House correspondent for WND has asked numerous times about the birth certificate and Gibbs keep repeating that it was posted on the web.
Gibbs used the same answer even when asked whether Obama had ever maintained residency in Connecticut. When simple questions are being evaded without any logical reason, it adds fuel to the fire that they are hiding the truth about Obama’s birthplace from public.
FactCheck, to my knowledge, is the only news organization that asked to see the paper copy (some time later) during the campaign. Do you know of any news organization who was, during the presidential election, denied access to it? My own view is that the rest of the media (those not in the debunking business) were not interested in the fantasies about a forged birth certificate, but certainly any that were would take the word of FactCheck.org, one of the most trusted organizations in the business.
Try again. That’s not what I’m referring to.
I have no interest in playing games. You’ve already admitted to enjoying causing folks extra effort. Say what you’re referring to or admit you made it up.
Why does he have to? What legitimate and credible sources are asking for it?
If you contact the HI DOH they will be happy to explain their privacy laws of why they can’t release such information. Pick up the phone instead of just complaining across a keyboard.
I concur.
I did my own digging and wrote quite an extensive set of posts on this on one of the earlier topic posts where the issue came up just a few weeks ago at this site.
The only other organization I could find that asked to actually see the physical birth certificate was Politifact and they did that only PRIOR TO the campaign’s public release of the COLB online.
After the COLB was posted, Politifact contacted the HI DOH and were satisfied with their answers backing up the veracity of the online COLB as well as the photos and report published by FactCheck.org, which came out fairly quickly after the COLB’s online release.
I could not find any other resource that claimed to have asked to see it.
The closest thing I could find was the original WND report on the topic, where they themselves claimed that they researched it too and found no problems with it Of course, that was before they realized there was money to be made on the birther industry and switched to pimping the issue and convincing their flock to buy birther-related merchandise off of them in every article.
Give some actual examples of this happening.
I proclaim Arnold Schwarzenegger U.S. presidential candidate and I as his Vice-president ( Can I????…. I am U.S. citizen, born in Brazil)
The document is NOT posted on the web, so your question is a meaningless strawman.
What is posted on the web is several images of the document. The web images are of course not acceptable as proof of anything and they are of course not evidence acceptable in a court of law to satisfy any question except whether or not an image was posted and that the document that was scanned existed at the time that it was scanned.
Your limp attempts to somehow feign confusion over the difference between an image of a document and the source of that image is transparent and frankly, just plain stoopid.
Any legitimate government agency or court in the world would accept that source document as prima facie evidence of the information contained on it. Period.
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And, for the umpteenth time, I am happy to report that he has done so.
That is possibly the only reasonably correct thing you have ever said on this forum. So now you can stop your silly attempts to turn your lies into mud. It just isn’t going to stick no matter how often you and your allies repeat them. And there is no good reason for him to be subject to your libel and slander.
And of course, he hasn’t.
And of course it isn’t in question. It is a complete and utter fraud and was proven so about 5 minutes after the image was posted. You really should try an keep up.
No it wouldn’t. It would just provide an opportunity for you and your allies to widen the conspiracy hallucination.
There is no evidence that the numbers of birthers is growing. There is, of course, evidence that the number of sock-puppets is growing, but they don’t count. And there is evidence that some candidates are trying to use you as leverage, but again, that is just cynical political opportunism.
Which, of course, is your entire point for existence.
You can make all the proclamations you want. However, they have no real impact or value. For one thing, you have no authority to speak on Arnold’s behalf.
More importantly, Arnold cannot run for US President. He was not a US Citizen by birth and only became one by naturalization when he was in his mid-30’s, back in 1983.